I wholeheartedly understand that bugs will happen. Bugs will always slip past the PT team and even past the first week or so of public testing. Those are facts. The problem I have with UWE is how they react to these bugs.
I recently was watching a NS2HD video and saw something that kinda astounded me. A user asked the question:
"Hey @hugh , since build 262, the server browser now shows current connected players to a server as "Unknown", is this a known issue and will be addressed in 264 or is it just me?"
and the reply was
"It's a known issue, but at UWE we don't have a line of sight on exactly when it will be fixed. We have to prioritise what bugs get fixed in any given build - If we try to fix too many, we raise the cumulative risk of failure in the update, and can potentially cause more problems."
I honestly want to know if this is the rationale behind why countless bugs from several builds ago have not been officially fixed yet. Samus has had almost all of the bugs fixed for weeks now... working, tested fixes. Also, it's the PT teams job to test new builds before they go out. So... why not get ALL the fixes you have access to into one (1) large patch/hotfix/whathaveyou and let the PTs do their job and test it. I would be happy to wait an extra week or two before the next patch to ensure that all the necessary fixes are included... instead of playing the guess-which-patch-this-bug-fix-will-be-in game.
Thinking back (beta through post launch), the patches had tons of fixes and arguably less problems each patch... Now we have patches with a lot less changes/fixes but have more bugs. IE... something in the current system is broken.
I love the NS2 and UWE but this is just getting ridiculous.
Actually it's the same stuff the community keeps repeating for years (more or less) now, but patience only lasts so long, I guess.
The fact that we never get any more insight on the thought process behind UWE's policies except for the occasional "Fixing bugs could cause more bugs" statement* surely doesn't help.
_________
*Which apparently has been disproven by Samus, anyway
SamusDroidColoradoJoin Date: 2013-05-13Member: 185219Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
edited April 2014
I've been wanting to say this for a while, but have held it back.
Making builds takes about 8 hours, and is slow because it takes time, money and many resources to make a patch happen. This means they are pulled away from other projects to work on NS2. It is recently being seen as big patches mean that there will be a lot of bugs so we have to selectively add fixes meaning not everything gets into one patch.
The real part of that means we have to make more patches to include the things that should have been included in the first place, meaning more of UWE's time, money, and resources are spent on NS2. It's unfortunate but it is the current situation. And if you read that carefully, you will see that this conflicts itself, and it something I don't particularly agree with. If builds included fixes when they were supposed to, we wouldn't have to create more patches to include the things that should have gone in.
I, and all of the PT's have voiced our concern about this, but there's only so much we can do.
Things like the "Unknown in server browser" are unlikely to be fixed anytime soon, we don't know the exact cause but I know it is definitely an engine bug, which I currently don't have access to fix, and I am able to pinpoint around where the bug would be.
Engine side things that needs to be fixed are very unlikely to get fixed as I don't have access nor the knowledge needed to fix those bugs.
*Netcode - will not be fixed
*Various engine bugs - very unlikely be fixed
*Server crashes - very unlikely to be fixed
*Workshop fails, kicking people - Will not be fixed
Skulk sounds - Fixed in 265
Mineshaft - Fixed in 265
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
colour me surprised but.. whats additionally expensive to include more fixes in one patch and letting free PTs test it for a much longer period of time, to ensure its fixed?
When new bugs arrise?
The current patch system seems unproductive at best in my not to superb informed opinion.
It is being seen as big patches mean that there will be a lot of bugs so we have to selectively add fixes
And that is the crux of the problem;
After years of playtesting, it is my personal opinion that such a view is short sighted and inaccurate, with all due respect to parties involved.
We've had literally *hundreds* of patches which contained *hundreds* of fixes, with either no issues, or less issues than the recent small patches.
What does this mean? It means that the process where bugs that naturally arise from bug fixes and consequently get fixed by developers after playtesters find them... isn't being fully understood or trusted.
Conversely, the only thing that comes from limiting the amount that gets fixed.. Is a product with that many more bugs.
I haven't lead PT since the beginning of the year so I may not know the whole picture, but this current method (essentially "keeping bugs in the build because we don't want bugs in the build"..??) isn't working, clearly.
Out of curiosity: How much of these 8 hours is manual (human) work, and how much of it is automated? Does this include writing the announcements (changelog, news post)?
8 hours of actual build time would be a lot, considering that many assets should not need a rebuild on every release, so I guess that's not it. But what else is preventing a 100% "press of a button" release?
Of course, there's always the small-team chicken-egg problem of "we don't release so often, so it's not worth automating... and we don't release often because it's so much work"
I also have a hard time understanding the "we wont fix it because it could break other things" idea.
Especially as many pending issues seem like pretty local fixes, not wide-ranging changes. I could understand UWE being wary of the latter while their focus is on another project, but I don't see many of them. Off the top of my head, reworking the Fade upgrades is the only one I see.
For example the bug where Whips sometimes don't attack/don't do damage. Sure, it may be tricky to track down... that's the nature of bug fixing. But what new problems could the fix introduce that are (1) WORSE than the current situation and (2) NOT glaringly obvious in playtesting?
An average player count of only 500 really isn't what you'd call dev time worthy to be honest. As much as I'd like all singing all dancing work to be done it a very small audience for next to no gain. Wonder if this latest humble bundle will do anything for the player count. With Subnautica being the focus now it would seem daft from a business perspective to spend time on NS2.
Remember when fan concerns were answered by golden posts? And UWE's rationale for these things would be explained instead of just pages of angry posters wondering what on earth is happening? Ah, the good old days
Remember when fan concerns were answered by golden posts? And UWE's rationale for these things would be explained instead of just pages of angry posters wondering what on earth is happening? Ah, the good old days
An average player count of only 500 really isn't what you'd call dev time worthy to be honest. As much as I'd like all singing all dancing work to be done it a very small audience for next to no gain. Wonder if this latest humble bundle will do anything for the player count. With Subnautica being the focus now it would seem daft from a business perspective to spend time on NS2.
Well, NOT alienating your most hardcore fans sounds like a *very* good business move to me, especially for a small company. I mean, this is not about demanding tons of new features or content... we're talking about bug fixes and a bit more transparency here.
Remember when fan concerns were answered by golden posts? And UWE's rationale for these things would be explained instead of just pages of angry posters wondering what on earth is happening? Ah, the good old days
To be fair, the UWE devs have had a LOT going on with other projects and they're particularly busy with PAX next week. There's a lot that can't be discussed just yet, but know that the devs are not just sitting around twiddling their thumbs ignoring you guys - they're legitimately busy.
And @Blarney_Stone? I don't think I've ever seen a post where you had something positive to say. You always just show up and whine. You could have every dev sitting at your disposal and you'd still find something to complain about. "Charlie isn't wearing the right colored shirt!!!!!" You were angry and complain-y before the devs moved on to other projects - so don't act like that would change anything.
I haven't had a lot positive to say lately because the last few patches have progressively broken the game more and more, PR has been horribly handled/entirely nonexistent, and the game has never been able to sustain a playerbase above 500. If I really hated the game and the devs I wouldn't even bother posting. It's the fact that I like the game so much that causes me to grieve when I see such major mistakes made.
What samus means is, This game is a waste of money in it's current form. They aren't making anything from it any more & really couldn't care less. I mean a 5 second dev post stating that these bugs are being addressed would put everyone at ease. To hard i guess.
I wholeheartedly understand that bugs will happen. Bugs will always slip past the PT team and even past the first week or so of public testing. Those are facts. The problem I have with UWE is how they react to these bugs.
I recently was watching a NS2HD video and saw something that kinda astounded me. A user asked the question:
"Hey @hugh , since build 262, the server browser now shows current connected players to a server as "Unknown", is this a known issue and will be addressed in 264 or is it just me?"
and the reply was
"It's a known issue, but at UWE we don't have a line of sight on exactly when it will be fixed. We have to prioritise what bugs get fixed in any given build - If we try to fix too many, we raise the cumulative risk of failure in the update, and can potentially cause more problems."
I honestly want to know if this is the rationale behind why countless bugs from several builds ago have not been officially fixed yet. Samus has had almost all of the bugs fixed for weeks now... working, tested fixes. Also, it's the PT teams job to test new builds before they go out. So... why not get ALL the fixes you have access to into one (1) large patch/hotfix/whathaveyou and let the PTs do their job and test it. I would be happy to wait an extra week or two before the next patch to ensure that all the necessary fixes are included... instead of playing the guess-which-patch-this-bug-fix-will-be-in game.
Thinking back (beta through post launch), the patches had tons of fixes and arguably less problems each patch... Now we have patches with a lot less changes/fixes but have more bugs. IE... something in the current system is broken.
I love the NS2 and UWE but this is just getting ridiculous.
You could not have said it any better my friend, that was the entire reasoning behind my hugely unpopular post earlier in this thread. Just take my awesome, hold it, love it! You preach truth brother, in the name of all UWE fans, small or big, famous or not. It's an amazing game, by amazing developers, with an amazing fanbase that will cause envy to anyone, it's just... what you said, in no more and no less detail. Best post ever. I even feel like playing more NS2 just from knowing there are dudes like you in the community.
What samus means is, This game is a waste of money in it's current form. They aren't making anything from it any more & really couldn't care less. I mean a 5 second dev post stating that these bugs are being addressed would put everyone at ease. To hard i guess.
I think what nezz means is, a, pretty-much-as-close-as-it-gets-dev, already told you what's going on, as much as I'm allowed to say.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
@nezz nownow...
I know, from player view like mine, uwe's patch & bug system is a laugh with the amount of fixed bugs which arent fixed yet.
But lets not bash community members who we all know contribute to fixing ns2. He just clearly stated he is not allowed to day more. But surely he holds some credit in this discussion due to all those fix actions?
@nezz nownow...
I know, from player view like mine, uwe's patch & bug system is a laugh with the amount of fixed bugs which arent fixed yet.
But lets not bash community members who we all know contribute to fixing ns2. He just clearly stated he is not allowed to day more. But surely he holds some credit in this discussion due to all those fix actions?
Yes his word is valuable, However - It's not a dev's word. A quality assured 5 second post from a Dev, Be it Orange pants, matso, charlie. It's alot more credible & will give peace to many viewers. Compared to someone who is "in the know" so to speak.
CCTEE, you seem to think I'm complaining about Samus work, Go thru my posts I have nothing but respect for the guy, It's a pitty UWE can't come to the table on a game that is the poster game for there company.
god try and reach hi-rez, valve, infinity ward? Those developers won't respond to anything for over a year - a post needs like 60,000 replies for them to even give a one sentence response giving exactly the opposite of what the post is even about
Anyway I have no idea what's going on.. I've been out of the loop for a while. Am waiting for the next patch though
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
Hmm... that my posts are in yellow is just a historical coincidence - I happened to work for UWE for a few months just before release, and got color coded back then. But my role was pretty much focused on performance coding - I had (and have) very little knowledge of UWEs internal thinking (9 timezones don't help much either).
If anything, Samus deserves color coding rather than me - he has worked a lot more with UWE (and NS2) the last year than I have.
Regarding bug fixing ... I agree with Samus what should be done (ie, just fix the **** bugs already), but then, I'm a coder with intimate knowledge of the NS2 code base (like Samus). I have a good feel for which bugs are easy to fix and unlikely to cause unforeseen effects in other places, and which bugs are more of a PITA.
If you don't have that knowledge, you will of course feel a lot more uncomfortable with doing new releases. Because new releases do tend to break for completly unforeseen reasons. Like Mineshaft - a really minor change was checked in at the end of february, but ... this was not known to the PT lead, so the map was never playtested, so the navigation mesh bug was never discovered.
The correct way of handling this is just to deal with it. Plan for it being broken the first time, and make sure you can fix it quickly.
Noone cares if the shit hits the fan if you can clean it up before it hits the walls.
It's just if you leave it around that it starts to stink.
Comments
I recently was watching a NS2HD video and saw something that kinda astounded me. A user asked the question:
and the reply was
I honestly want to know if this is the rationale behind why countless bugs from several builds ago have not been officially fixed yet. Samus has had almost all of the bugs fixed for weeks now... working, tested fixes. Also, it's the PT teams job to test new builds before they go out. So... why not get ALL the fixes you have access to into one (1) large patch/hotfix/whathaveyou and let the PTs do their job and test it. I would be happy to wait an extra week or two before the next patch to ensure that all the necessary fixes are included... instead of playing the guess-which-patch-this-bug-fix-will-be-in game.
Thinking back (beta through post launch), the patches had tons of fixes and arguably less problems each patch... Now we have patches with a lot less changes/fixes but have more bugs. IE... something in the current system is broken.
I love the NS2 and UWE but this is just getting ridiculous.
Actually it's the same stuff the community keeps repeating for years (more or less) now, but patience only lasts so long, I guess.
The fact that we never get any more insight on the thought process behind UWE's policies except for the occasional "Fixing bugs could cause more bugs" statement* surely doesn't help.
_________
*Which apparently has been disproven by Samus, anyway
Making builds takes about 8 hours, and is slow because it takes time, money and many resources to make a patch happen. This means they are pulled away from other projects to work on NS2. It is recently being seen as big patches mean that there will be a lot of bugs so we have to selectively add fixes meaning not everything gets into one patch.
The real part of that means we have to make more patches to include the things that should have been included in the first place, meaning more of UWE's time, money, and resources are spent on NS2. It's unfortunate but it is the current situation. And if you read that carefully, you will see that this conflicts itself, and it something I don't particularly agree with. If builds included fixes when they were supposed to, we wouldn't have to create more patches to include the things that should have gone in.
I, and all of the PT's have voiced our concern about this, but there's only so much we can do.
Things like the "Unknown in server browser" are unlikely to be fixed anytime soon, we don't know the exact cause but I know it is definitely an engine bug, which I currently don't have access to fix, and I am able to pinpoint around where the bug would be.
Engine side things that needs to be fixed are very unlikely to get fixed as I don't have access nor the knowledge needed to fix those bugs.
*Netcode - will not be fixed
*Various engine bugs - very unlikely be fixed
*Server crashes - very unlikely to be fixed
*Workshop fails, kicking people - Will not be fixed
Skulk sounds - Fixed in 265
Mineshaft - Fixed in 265
When new bugs arrise?
The current patch system seems unproductive at best in my not to superb informed opinion.
After years of playtesting, it is my personal opinion that such a view is short sighted and inaccurate, with all due respect to parties involved.
We've had literally *hundreds* of patches which contained *hundreds* of fixes, with either no issues, or less issues than the recent small patches.
What does this mean?
It means that the process where bugs that naturally arise from bug fixes and consequently get fixed by developers after playtesters find them... isn't being fully understood or trusted.
Conversely, the only thing that comes from limiting the amount that gets fixed.. Is a product with that many more bugs.
I haven't lead PT since the beginning of the year so I may not know the whole picture, but this current method (essentially "keeping bugs in the build because we don't want bugs in the build"..??) isn't working, clearly.
8 hours of actual build time would be a lot, considering that many assets should not need a rebuild on every release, so I guess that's not it. But what else is preventing a 100% "press of a button" release?
Of course, there's always the small-team chicken-egg problem of "we don't release so often, so it's not worth automating... and we don't release often because it's so much work"
Is it for fear of overcommitment that we hear nothing about the future? Or is it surprise?
I also have a hard time understanding the "we wont fix it because it could break other things" idea.
For example the bug where Whips sometimes don't attack/don't do damage. Sure, it may be tricky to track down... that's the nature of bug fixing. But what new problems could the fix introduce that are (1) WORSE than the current situation and (2) NOT glaringly obvious in playtesting?
Must've been before my days
Thanks, nice to know. Doesn't seem so bad then, actually...
To be fair, the UWE devs have had a LOT going on with other projects and they're particularly busy with PAX next week. There's a lot that can't be discussed just yet, but know that the devs are not just sitting around twiddling their thumbs ignoring you guys - they're legitimately busy.
And @Blarney_Stone? I don't think I've ever seen a post where you had something positive to say. You always just show up and whine. You could have every dev sitting at your disposal and you'd still find something to complain about. "Charlie isn't wearing the right colored shirt!!!!!" You were angry and complain-y before the devs moved on to other projects - so don't act like that would change anything.
You could not have said it any better my friend, that was the entire reasoning behind my hugely unpopular post earlier in this thread. Just take my awesome, hold it, love it! You preach truth brother, in the name of all UWE fans, small or big, famous or not. It's an amazing game, by amazing developers, with an amazing fanbase that will cause envy to anyone, it's just... what you said, in no more and no less detail. Best post ever. I even feel like playing more NS2 just from knowing there are dudes like you in the community.
I know, from player view like mine, uwe's patch & bug system is a laugh with the amount of fixed bugs which arent fixed yet.
But lets not bash community members who we all know contribute to fixing ns2. He just clearly stated he is not allowed to day more. But surely he holds some credit in this discussion due to all those fix actions?
Would you complain if a volunteer fireman puts out the fire in your house?
Yes his word is valuable, However - It's not a dev's word. A quality assured 5 second post from a Dev, Be it Orange pants, matso, charlie. It's alot more credible & will give peace to many viewers. Compared to someone who is "in the know" so to speak.
CCTEE, you seem to think I'm complaining about Samus work, Go thru my posts I have nothing but respect for the guy, It's a pitty UWE can't come to the table on a game that is the poster game for there company.
god try and reach hi-rez, valve, infinity ward? Those developers won't respond to anything for over a year - a post needs like 60,000 replies for them to even give a one sentence response giving exactly the opposite of what the post is even about
Anyway I have no idea what's going on.. I've been out of the loop for a while. Am waiting for the next patch though
If anything, Samus deserves color coding rather than me - he has worked a lot more with UWE (and NS2) the last year than I have.
Regarding bug fixing ... I agree with Samus what should be done (ie, just fix the **** bugs already), but then, I'm a coder with intimate knowledge of the NS2 code base (like Samus). I have a good feel for which bugs are easy to fix and unlikely to cause unforeseen effects in other places, and which bugs are more of a PITA.
If you don't have that knowledge, you will of course feel a lot more uncomfortable with doing new releases. Because new releases do tend to break for completly unforeseen reasons. Like Mineshaft - a really minor change was checked in at the end of february, but ... this was not known to the PT lead, so the map was never playtested, so the navigation mesh bug was never discovered.
The correct way of handling this is just to deal with it. Plan for it being broken the first time, and make sure you can fix it quickly.
Noone cares if the shit hits the fan if you can clean it up before it hits the walls.
It's just if you leave it around that it starts to stink.
Well said