Alot of players are far to quick to call a game "stacked", Either because 1 team is full of players with badges (that dont really mean anything anyway) or there is some Comp players on the other team that wont split up making the game stacked in there favor (3+ comp players on the same team for more than 2 rounds in a row is no fun for anyone really, unless you gorge rush, then thats just fun for all!)
Indeed there are a few old timers who play on the yo server and no amount of practice will give them that twitch aim you need. I've heard it before someone convinced that it just takes time to learn, some poor buggers no longer have that manual dexterity anymore.
That's a less flexible cap on player skill which can be appreciated as being hard to improve.
I suppose I am elitist expecting people to understand the benefits of A1>W1, standing at range from each other, running away from PGs to allow marines to spawn through at range. In my opinion these things are a case of logical and simple thinking which everyone has the ability to think about and everyone could be on the same level as each other.
Just over 3 months ago, I posted a thread on raptr willing to give tips, ideas, and play with people to help improve. I was tempted at putting it on the UWE forums but it would probably come off as conceited. Instead of making a new thread though, I will post here that I am still willing to help those that want to be helped. If you have questions or you just simply want to play with/against me to figure stuff out, go for it. A higher public skill base (by learning map reading and positional play) leads to improved quality of games and more fun for me too. I've noticed a massive increase in skill over the last 2 months or so over the YOclan/HBZ server at certain times and that's really positive.
Just don't expect me to never play with friends. Sometimes we lose when we play together, sometimes we win. So there goes the whole one team has no advantage when these players are on the same team argument. Sometimes we play against each other and the games are just as quick to end. It's not just the top players that are the problem; it's the skill disparity from all players, and if all players learnt the things that all players have access too, the skill disparity would close.
For me its like the braindead having taken over the game.
1,5 years after the release and NS2 is nearly unplayble for me.
Thanks for bringing back HBZ server. It's the highest skilled server for us europeans and you are a fantastic administrator running it.
For me it was christmas 2012 where something went wrong with skill and manners. I distinctly remember after that period of time there was a sale and the community just started turning sour. Now after a lot of months I look at myself and I know I'm not much better... I want to apologise but for me that means that I won't do/say something again and I have no inclination to lie down and watch people complain about better skilled people and blame that on poor games.
Which takes time, how many hours do you play for in a week? Some of the folks I see will play at most for an hour every so often.
Why can't this be thought of during the hour you're playing?
You die (Start the timer)
Why did I die?
I ran into the alien natural shooting the cysts having not seen an alien on the map for 10 seconds. I had no ammo, a skulk killed me.
What can I do not to die next time?
Not spend all my ammo if I haven't seen a skulk on the map for a long time, particularly on an alien natural.
Respawn.
Continue playing.
Repeat process for next hour, or for the next 300-400 hours (which people have already played and should have been doing this process all along)
I got flamed for going 65-1 before as a fade by some pubbers. We were losing pretty bad. We could barely hold our naturals because of Marine pressure. I told the team we needed to harass their RTs so they would stop harassing ours. While a few were able to sneak around and get past the Marines outside our base, most did not. We held off just long enough for me and another player to evolve to fade. And we did what fades do best, we killed the Marine pressure then started looking for recappers after their RTs were destroyed.
I am by no means premier level player but I do play competitive. We have a better understanding of strategy and tactics then your average pubber. I was basically acting as as field commander that game helping skulks and the commander with structure placement, when to cyst, what to research, etc.
But my point is Marine players just see the KD and say, "Hey! This is a rookie friendly server. Go play somewhere else!" Even though I helped a lot that game in other ways and still managed to go 65-1.
A lot of new pub players also don't know how the lifeforms work. They evolve to lerk/fade, walk to the first group of 4 marines, die.
They think this lifeforms are bad and if you go 30-1 as a fade or lerk you gotta be cheating, hacking, or just pubstomping as a comp player.
They don't understand that all the pres on the alien side are in these lifeforms and they are not supposed to die as much as a marine or skulk.
Also I gotta agree with wob. It's not THAT hard to learn the basics of this game. But how often do you see marine teams losing, because more than half of the
team is fighting a single gorge all game? You can tell these guys not to go there but to kill some other rt or do anything usefull. But it has been said here already: Most pub players just don't WANT to improve. It's probably more fun to stand in front of a gorge fortification with 6 marines spamming the clogs with shotguns and throw grenades in instead of playing the game in another way. So be it, I am ok with it, as long as these (and other) players don't complain about me playing the game the way I like it to be played...
I'd have to ask. But if it was that simple then why are we not swamped with high level play.
We know that the step from being a good pubplayer to being a good competitive player is huge and the step from div1 to premier division is even bigger, but
we are not talking about high level play, we are talking about basic understading of the game. Such as not running in a room brainless without checking a single corner.
What do you think, how do we get all the kills as a skulk vs marines in the early game? By imba aim? No, we play sneaky, we set up ambushes and 90% of the pub players just fall for that. You might think when a player runs in a room, and gets killed by a skulk sitting on top of the door the player would check that spot next time, don't you? That is one of the things we mean by common gamesense, what every player should be able to achive within the first 10-30 hours of play. But for some reason this seems to be too much to ask for. Instead, when a skulk tries to ambush us comp players (who check almost every corner entering a room) and we kill that skulk we are wallhacking...
And once again you say it's not that hard, but the evidence is not there to back it up. I agree I think it's not that hard but I can only comment from my personal experience.
Why can't this be thought of during the hour you're playing?
You die (Start the timer)
Why did I die?
I ran into the alien natural shooting the cysts having not seen an alien on the map for 10 seconds. I had no ammo, a skulk killed me.
What can I do not to die next time?
Not spend all my ammo if I haven't seen a skulk on the map for a long time, particularly on an alien natural.
Respawn.
Continue playing.
Repeat process for next hour, or for the next 300-400 hours (which people have already played and should have been doing this process all along)
Just gotta say, these are the things that come across as being extremely elitist... To continually suggest that we're doing bad against these "pro" players because we're making rookie mistakes like ground skulking or spamming ammo needlessly... It's as if you really have no clue what it's like to be an average player against someone whose skill level is so far above your own you have zero hope...
I have over 800 hours so far... Here's the same little rundown you did after one of these "pro" players kills me...
I die (start the timer)
Why did I die?
I ambushed the Marine perfectly, got a parasite in and managed to get 1 bite off before they spun around and killed me with their precision aim.
What can I do not do die next time?
Well I ambushed as perfectly as I possibly could (they had no clue I was there until I was on top of them attacking) but their "pro" aim was SO good that I didn't even have time to get off a 2nd bite before they did a little jump spin and killed me. - So no clue whatsoever how to possibly improve upon that... Ok I guess I just have to stick to other Aliens like glue and hope we can overwhelm them.
Respawn.
Ok look the "pro" is rushing into our main and there's 5 of us here... lets all hit him together.
We're all dead (start the timer)
Why did we die?
We waited until he was close then rushed in as a group, jumping off walls and darting back and forth while trying to close the gap. Didn't matter, he effortlessly dropped all 5 of us with shotgun and pistol amid a shower of med packs.
What can we do to not die next time?
Nothing at all really, pretty impossible to kill someone who can effortlessly drop 5 skulks... Oh well, lets try going Lerk... I'm really good as a Lerk after all.
Respawn
Ok the "pro" is still pushing our main hive, lets evolve to Lerk and fly over there... Ok there he is, going to hit him from behind along with a few Skulks...
We're all dead again (start the timer)
Why did we die?
Too much of a gap in skill levels, plain and simple. We did everything right, I'm using my best life form, playing at the top of my game... He dropped all of us with ease again... even finished my Lerk with one of those "pro" pistol shots as I was trying to retreat around the corner...
What can we do to not die next time?
Well we can start by avoiding that "pro" because they're going to dominate no matter what we do... Follow that up by holding x and clicking on vote concede. Then hope that they choose to leave the server before the next game starts...
That is exactly the point we are talking about, isn't it?
It is not hard, but people do not want to improve, but blame other people.
I Ambush, they don't check corner, they die -> I am pubstomping.
They ambush, I check corner, they die -> I am pubstomping / wallhacking.
It is ALWAYS the other players fault, in this case competitive players are the evil guys destroying pub games. It is not the average pub players fault that they play brainless, no, it's our fault because we stack. Do you get what we are talking about?
Well it may be it's not evil but if one player is deciding the outcome then yes it will destroy a game. You say folks should learn when perhaps they just don't have the time or as I believe they have hit their skill ceiling.
It's as if you really have no clue what it's like to be an average player against someone whose skill level is so far above your own you have zero hope...
Of course we know how that feels like, but do you know what I did, when I jsut started palying and ran into one of the Archaea "gods" (at that time their skill seemd unreachable for me) on a pub server? While every one else was flaming that player who just wanted to warm up for a game or have some fun with the game he has played all over the alpha and beta I just tried to get a kill on that guy. I remember playing a marine round on decent vs fana lerking, in the end he had a kd of about 60-1. He completeley stomped us, I porbably died to him 10-15 times. But can't you imagine how happy I was being the guy who killed him once?
I have over 800 hours so far... Here's the same little rundown you did after one of these "pro" players kills me...
I die (start the timer)
Why did I die?
I ambushed the Marine perfectly, got a parasite in and managed to get 1 bite off before they spun around and killed me with their precision aim.
What can I do not do die next time?
Well I ambushed as perfectly as I possibly could (they had no clue I was there until I was on top of them attacking) but their "pro" aim was SO good that I didn't even have time to get off a 2nd bite before they did a little jump spin and killed me. - So no clue whatsoever how to possibly improve upon that... Ok I guess I just have to stick to other Aliens like glue and hope we can overwhelm them.
If he kills you you didn't ambush perfectly... And what do you think how often that happens to us in competitive games? The best comms medpack those marines after the first bite you get in and you die. That is why a skulks job is to parasite marines and bite rts, not to fight alone. If you want to kill a good marine player get him parasited, group up and kill him with more than 1 skulk coming from different directions.
Respawn.
Ok look the "pro" is rushing into our main and there's 5 of us here... lets all hit him together.
We're all dead (start the timer)
Why did we die?
We waited until he was close then rushed in as a group, jumping off walls and darting back and forth while trying to close the gap. Didn't matter, he effortlessly dropped all 5 of us with shotgun and pistol amid a shower of med packs.
What can we do to not die next time?
Really rush in as a group, not running on the walls with 3 skulks, while 2 already jump into his shotgun.
Nothing at all really, pretty impossible to kill someone who can effortlessly drop 5 skulks...
There is hardly any competitive player who can solo 5 skulks that engage proberly in a hiveroom. If someone pulls that of (ofc it happens) it happens because that player has a good day, a comm medding and not perfectly engaging skulks.
Oh well, lets try going Lerk... I'm really good as a Lerk after all.
Respawn
Ok the "pro" is still pushing our main hive, lets evolve to Lerk and fly over there... Ok there he is, going to hit him from behind along with a few Skulks...
We're all dead again (start the timer)
Why did we die?
Because you tried to melee a (as you should have noticed by now) very good marine player instead of spiking his armor down and letting the skulks engage.
Too much of a gap in skill levels, plain and simple. We did everything right, I'm using my best life form, playing at the top of my game... He dropped all of us with ease again... even finished my Lerk with one of those "pro" pistol shots as I was trying to retreat around the corner...
What can we do to not die next time?
Don't go melee vs a good shotgunner and retreat when you are low enough to get killed by pistol.
I think we really need to work on our definition of a stack, because yours seems to be pretty different than. I'd also like to know what you are trying to tell me with those quotes. The second does not even have anything to do with me.
No one is clear on the word stack anymore. Some people say it's friends or clan members joining the same team, some people say it's the winning team, some people say it's good players playing together, some people say it's bad players playing together, some people say it because they have nothing else to say. It's a useless word just thrown about these days to make people feel less bad about themselves.
I don't believe in the word stack because it is demeaning to perceived bad players and puts perceived good players up on a pedestal instead of playing the game.
As soon as you claim a stack you're admitting to assigning arbitrary numbers to players and playing some sort of mathematics game to determine the outcome before the game has even started. Everyone forgets that "good players" can have bad days, and "bad players" can have good days.
Everyone forgets to play seriously and properly because they believe they've already won/lost.
You devalue yourself, you disrespect the people on the opposite team of "the stack", and you set these players up as gods or some symbolism of some greater being who's either awe inspiringly good, frustratingly good, or a faggot.
Play the game and focus on what you have to do which is killing marines/skulks and RTs/harvesters. You lose, you learn, you improve, you have higher quality games. You win, you learn, you improve, you have higher quality games.
At the moment, it's just "oh we lost cause of stack, whatever, we'll NEVER get that good, or anywhere close that even if they have a bad game, we'd STILL lose!"
For me, a "stacked game" is a game where the majority of skill is blatantly grouped in one team, which leads to a predictable loss for the other team.
"Stacking" a game would be the act of deliberately joining the stronger team even though you are high-skilled by yourself disregarding any balancing thoughts.
Terms like "rookie stack" could be derived from this (e.g. a rookie stack would be stacking inversed).
Now, let's take a hypothetical scenario. We let a prem div team fight a bunch of rookies (this is an intentionally crass example). You wouldn't argue that the rookies stand no chance, right? You don't need to assign any arbitrary numbers or do complex mathematics.
In between those prem div players and the bunch of rookies there's a myriad of skill grades in between. Each player probably has their own; and while they by far don't play consistently on this very same level, they will usually move in a certain range around it.
Once you get to know this player better, you gain a feeling for how good this one is in a team he is playing on. If you play on a server with lots of people like these - which you optimally would, as you would play on a community server with lots of regulars, like I do - you have at least a chance to judge the strength of certain teams and balance them out, and for me, it usually works very well.
Still, there are no mathematics involved and I'm not throwing around arbitrary numbers; it's a feeling in my guts, and it works.
And this is experience I use to determine whether I view a game as stacked or not. I'm not devaluing or disrespecting anyone here. I don't use any symbolism. And I certainly don't view anyone as gods.
The mass majority of the ns2 player base atm is casual players and they log for a few hours to have fun and then move on with their lives. To expect them to "get on your level" IS elitism.
I personally try to anti stack when I can, but I also like playing on the same team as my friends so I can relate. Also my skill level isn't high enough to counter a pro players.
Every time you die you have 9 seconds as marines and 13 as aliens (I think) to reflect on how you died. A couple of hours at 30-40 deaths gives you 5 minutes a night. 5 minutes of improving a day could be massive in 1 week. If these players can't be bothered to spend 5 minutes a night trying to improve, why should I be disallowed to play with my friends, or flamed for playing with friends who are similar in that they want to learn to play better?
At least I do have some sympathy for their cause and do play against my friends for balance. It would just be nice if 90% of the games people just manned up, took it on the chin, and went through some sort of problem-solving process instead of going down the easy route of "stack, gg, game over, why bother playing, teams unfair"
Dude you are stepping into troll logic territory here. Because everyone has 9/13 seconds time to think about how they died this time you have to right to stack?
You are on the verge of not being taken seriously by me anymore.
I think you are not even trying to understand what we are telling you. Actually I don't see any point to take you serious anymore...
Oh, I do understand perfectly what he said. He said:
Every time you die you have 9 seconds as marines and 13 as aliens (I think) to reflect on how you died. A couple of hours at 30-40 deaths gives you 5 minutes a night. 5 minutes of improving a day could be massive in 1 week. If these players can't be bothered to spend 5 minutes a night trying to improve, why should I be disallowed to play with my friends, or flamed for playing with friends who are similar in that they want to learn to play better?
If these players can't be bothered to spend 5 minutes a night trying to improve, why should I be disallowed to play with my friends, or flamed for playing with friends who are similar in that they want to learn to play better?
This, formulated ab it differently, reads: "If my enemies are not willing to try to improve at the game, I should not be disallowed to play [against them] with my friends."
And yes, this does heavily imply "If my enemies are not willing to learn, I am allowed to stack"
But let's take a look at the underlying "13 seconds" argument in detail. (Also take a look at Mofo's post, I think he perfectly puts across how I feel.)
Indeed there are a few old timers who play on the yo server and no amount of practice will give them that twitch aim you need. I've heard it before someone convinced that it just takes time to learn, some poor buggers no longer have that manual dexterity anymore.
That's a less flexible cap on player skill which can be appreciated as being hard to improve.
I suppose I am elitist expecting people to understand the benefits of A1>W1, standing at range from each other, running away from PGs to allow marines to spawn through at range. In my opinion these things are a case of logical and simple thinking which everyone has the ability to think about and everyone could be on the same level as each other.
Which takes time, how many hours do you play for in a week? Some of the folks I see will play at most for an hour every so often.
Why can't this be thought of during the hour you're playing?
You die (Start the timer)
Why did I die?
I ran into the alien natural shooting the cysts having not seen an alien on the map for 10 seconds. I had no ammo, a skulk killed me.
What can I do not to die next time?
Not spend all my ammo if I haven't seen a skulk on the map for a long time, particularly on an alien natural.
Respawn.
Continue playing.
Repeat process for next hour, or for the next 300-400 hours (which people have already played and should have been doing this process all along)
A lot of new pub players also don't know how the lifeforms work. They evolve to lerk/fade, walk to the first group of 4 marines, die.
They think this lifeforms are bad and if you go 30-1 as a fade or lerk you gotta be cheating, hacking, or just pubstomping as a comp player.
They don't understand that all the pres on the alien side are in these lifeforms and they are not supposed to die as much as a marine or skulk.
Also I gotta agree with wob. It's not THAT hard to learn the basics of this game. But how often do you see marine teams losing, because more than half of the
team is fighting a single gorge all game? You can tell these guys not to go there but to kill some other rt or do anything usefull. But it has been said here already: Most pub players just don't WANT to improve. It's probably more fun to stand in front of a gorge fortification with 6 marines spamming the clogs with shotguns and throw grenades in instead of playing the game in another way. So be it, I am ok with it, as long as these (and other) players don't complain about me playing the game the way I like it to be played...
I'd have to ask. But if it was that simple then why are we not swamped with high level play.
We know that the step from being a good pubplayer to being a good competitive player is huge and the step from div1 to premier division is even bigger, but
we are not talking about high level play, we are talking about basic understading of the game. Such as not running in a room brainless without checking a single corner.
What do you think, how do we get all the kills as a skulk vs marines in the early game? By imba aim? No, we play sneaky, we set up ambushes and 90% of the pub players just fall for that. You might think when a player runs in a room, and gets killed by a skulk sitting on top of the door the player would check that spot next time, don't you? That is one of the things we mean by common gamesense, what every player should be able to achive within the first 10-30 hours of play. But for some reason this seems to be too much to ask for. Instead, when a skulk tries to ambush us comp players (who check almost every corner entering a room) and we kill that skulk we are wallhacking...
(more important parts highlighted)
You seem to think we are some kind of rookies who neither want nor can improve; lack basic understanding of the game and would only need to understand a few simple concepts to beat you.
If that's the case, you are wrong.
I know about the benefits of a1/w1. I know how to place and handle phase gates. I know the importance of harassing and defending RTs. I know where and when to defend or place armories and observatories, when an attack on a RT with a shotgun is futile or game changing. I check corners. I ambush, both as alien and marine, I know how to keep my Onos alive, what to do as a gorge, where to hide as a skulk. I know the maps by heart. I understand and try to apply basic concepts of zoning, how to distract a marine as a skulk so my friend can kill, how to draw an enemies attention somewhere else. I know how a cloaked skulk looks like, how to react to a shade start, how to check for ambushes. I know how to properly walk around corners, how to walljump, how a fade should move and how a Lerk shouldn't. I know that a a0 marine dies to a parasite and two bites, and that w0 shotguns are useless. I know how to place mines.
I know more than enough to carry a really nooby team.
BUT I am far, far away from your level. So please, please don't tell me I will suddenly magically get the ability to kill you guys just by checking corners properly, or using distance to my advantage as a marine, or ambushing properly as a skulk. I already do this stuff. And you still kill me. And it baffles me. I have no idea how you do this, how freaking fast your reflexes are and how incredibly precise your aim.
I think you lost grasp to the advanced-players-who-are-not-quite-pro. We know how the game works, that's the easy stuff! You can learn it. We already learned. So don't tell me this is what you need to kill you, because everyday experience tells me that I can't take down a Wob Fade even if I suddenly got w4.
I'd like to counter this::
Just don't expect me to never play with friends. Sometimes we lose when we play together, sometimes we win. So there goes the whole one team has no advantage when these players are on the same team argument. Sometimes we play against each other and the games are just as quick to end. It's not just the top players that are the problem; it's the skill disparity from all players, and if all players learnt the things that all players have access too, the skill disparity would close.
One guy I've seen even switches teams multiple times mid-game in order to keep it balanced.
I have been doing that a lot myself. There have been multiple games where I was the only prem player on a server, dominating the other team early on by denying one or both natural rts. In NS2 that of course often leads to ragequitting on the other team, so when I die I find myself in the spawnqueue for minutes what makes me swich teams. On the one hand I do it so I can play (even though I know I'll probably gonna lose) on the other hand it's a challange to try to turn the game around. Unfortunately some days ago winning such a game in the end lead to a lot of guys complaining about me winning-team-joining *sigh*
I have over 800 hours so far... Here's the same little rundown you did after one of these "pro" players kills me...
I die (start the timer)
Why did I die?
I ambushed the Marine perfectly, got a parasite in and managed to get 1 bite off before they spun around and killed me with their precision aim.
What can I do not do die next time?
Well I ambushed as perfectly as I possibly could (they had no clue I was there until I was on top of them attacking) but their "pro" aim was SO good that I didn't even have time to get off a 2nd bite before they did a little jump spin and killed me. - So no clue whatsoever how to possibly improve upon that... Ok I guess I just have to stick to other Aliens like glue and hope we can overwhelm them.
If he kills you you didn't ambush perfectly...
So... If Mofo was the marine, and he would've been ambushed and died, would you then say that he didn't defend perfectly...?
I've started working on a handicap mod ever since I had Anzestral drop by on one of the JonMo & ShellMo servers and empty it due to the immense skill imbalance. We spoke about it at the time since i'm in the uncomfortable position of not wanting to kick someone simply because they are good (don't we all wish to achieve that at some point?), however I cannot allow one person to significantly impact the experience for the other 17 players playing on the server.
Let me make it clear what the problem is here.
The problem is the huge skill disparity ruining the experience for the majority, which tends to empty the game server.
Things that are NOT important.
1. It doesn't matter who is to blame.
2. Solutions which don't act fast enough to stop the server from emptying (which makes all "learn to play" solutions irrelevant, you aren't realistically going to raise the skill level of the entire player base any time soon).
My observations
1. You aren't going to change the behavior of anyone simply by asking.
2. The player base isn't big enough to segregate by skill level.
3. Average players don't have the time or inclination to reach pro status and cannot be blamed for that.
4. Skilled players also want to play the game and for various reasons will not always 'tone it down'.
My requirements for a solution
1. We make automatic adjustments to the game in real time.
2. We do not require anyone to change their behavior.
3. We need to give some positive reinforcement for the automatic system (it can't just be a punishment).
4. Nobody should be mislead or frustrated.
5. We try not to change the experience from stock for rookies (so they do not learn something modified)
2. Modify the parameters of the game for that one player. I would suggest a reduction in weapon damage as a reduction in health would hamper aliens more significantly.
3. Make it clear to all players what is happening, I am considering making it appear that the player is "leveling up", although they get nerfed instead of buffed. They can show this off to other players so that highly skilled players still get their reward just structured in a different way.
Note that we don't have to get this perfectly balanced, it should only impact outliers which is rare, and it only needs to be a better solution than kicking people.
I don't see how we are still talking about stacking in this thread to be honest.
It feels like it turned into some kind of "We can't kill competitive players, please do not play pub anymore" thread, since obviously already the presence of one single competitive player on a pub server is too much and game killing.
So... If Mofo was the marine, and he would've been ambushed and died, would you then say that he didn't defend perfectly...?
Probably yes. In that case the skulk got a better ambush (maybe he waited for Mofo reloading after killing a cyst?) and/or Mofo didn't check corners carefully.
So wait, it doesn't matter if he ambushed perfectly, because he was doing the wrong thing all along, anyway?
If he died during his ambush it sounds like it was not the right thing to do, doesn't it? Maybe getting a parasite on the marine and going on resbiting forcing the marine to defend the rt would have been better? Or just getting the parasite and playing some hide and seek with the marine waiting for lerks/fades to kill him so he could go on biting res? That is exactly the way it is done in high level competitive play. You see? No imba movement, imba aim or anything, just playing a bit more defensive not going for the kill but trying to waste the marines time and actually achive something for the team by biting res.
And what I just wrote is a perfect example of what wob is trying to say. After you die (even when you think your ambush was perfect) stop blaming the other player just for being better and killing you. Start thinkin what YOU could have done better.
I have over 800 hours so far... Here's the same little rundown you did after one of these "pro" players kills me...
I die (start the timer)
Why did I die?
I ambushed the Marine perfectly, got a parasite in and managed to get 1 bite off before they spun around and killed me with their precision aim.
What can I do not do die next time?
Well I ambushed as perfectly as I possibly could (they had no clue I was there until I was on top of them attacking) but their "pro" aim was SO good that I didn't even have time to get off a 2nd bite before they did a little jump spin and killed me. - So no clue whatsoever how to possibly improve upon that... Ok I guess I just have to stick to other Aliens like glue and hope we can overwhelm them.
If he kills you you didn't ambush perfectly...
So... If Mofo was the marine, and he would've been ambushed and died, would you then say that he didn't defend perfectly...?
That is why a skulks job is to parasite marines and bite rts, not to fight alone.
So wait, it doesn't matter if he ambushed perfectly, because he was doing the wrong thing all along, anyway?
I think you should make yourself aware of how this 1v1 works and not take what he is saying so literally.
2 bites comes slower than 9 rounds when it comes to the basic marine vs skulk gameplay. So charging at the marine and allowing him to get 9 rounds+ off at you is not the best idea right? Even if you get close to him and manage to bite he still can shoot you with 9 rounds faster than you can land those two bites.
So.. you ambush. You attack him from the rear or from the flank. This way the marine has to react, find you, and then start tracking you to 9 rounds.
If the marine turns around on you and gets 9 perfect rounds off (rarely happens - try counting the bullets aurally when you attack marines) then clearly you made a mistake as a skulk and gave away your presence or missed bites or... didn't stay close enough due to a movement/cursor correction error. Perfectly would imply that you started biting the marine with his back turned or flank exposed and landed the 2nd bite right as he turned on you and then you finished with a parasite or 3rd bite. When A2 comes up then you get into 4th bite territory where you'll likely lose no matter what.
There's always something to improve upon when you die. That is the point he is trying to make.
Additionally, he wasn't "doing the wrong thing all along"..
It's just that in general you won't often win the fight against an equal skilled marine due to the nature of the engagement. Thus, you should do what the skulk does best most of the time.. moving fast, and getting to the marine resources. The marine has the tactical prowess and it's just how the game is designed. You will lose most 1v1s vs marines of equal skill.. it's just how the game is balanced. You can increase your chances of success by ambushing like I was describing..
Everything I've described here is something public players are capable of and I've seen do to various degrees. I'm not talking from a competitive perspective here (though ambushing works in generally the same way in comp play) - just talking from a competent player perspective that has learned the mechanics involved in the gameplay at a public level.
Its funny that we see this thread on that day i powered down our pub server.
Coincidence? maybe
It looks like this community dont need/want high level servers anymore.
The HBZ server is dying constantly over the last weeks for example.
2-3 rounds per day and then the server is empty again.
Every try from other clans/communitys wasnt successfull in the past.
Last try was the "Over.Extension | Comp Mod Server" wich is empty most of the time.
For me it looks like this game is killing itself.
Lets call it "Natural selection"
Really? That's too bad, HBZ was the only pub server I still enjoyed playing on, even though I don't play pubs that often anymore.
I have 700 hours in the game, but I've stopped playing the last two weeks or so. The pub stomping just became too much for me. If you were lucky enough to have "The Chosen One" (you know, the guy whose k/d ratio is 50 and 1) on your team, you would win. If you didn't have that guy, you would get #rekt.
I've realized competitive online gaming is fun, but at the end of the day it's just a reflection of the real world: People ganging up on the weak, elitism, doing whatever it takes to win, cheating *gasp*, obnoxious people who love to hear themselves speak, people who are allergic to teamwork, etc. I think the Natural Selection 2 game is very, very good, but the community itself is the Achilles heel. Then again, I don't think any competitive online game has a good community; the competitive aspect always brings out the worst in people.
I love the skill ranking in quakelive.com. I do sucky I get suckier opponents, I do better and I pretty much instantly get better opponents. And since the skill ceiling is f*cking Rapha, there's always room to improve. There's never a time I'd keep r*ping for several matches or keep getting r*ped.
Don't really have a point here. Just wanted to say that.
BUT I am far, far away from your level. So please, please don't tell me I will suddenly magically get the ability to kill you guys just by checking corners properly, or using distance to my advantage as a marine, or ambushing properly as a skulk. I already do this stuff. And you still kill me. And it baffles me. I have no idea how you do this, how freaking fast your reflexes are and how incredibly precise your aim.
I think you lost grasp to the advanced-players-who-are-not-quite-pro. We know how the game works, that's the easy stuff! You can learn it. We already learned. So don't tell me this is what you need to kill you, because everyday experience tells me that I can't take down a Wob Fade even if I suddenly got w4.
When I played against you, you didn't check ambushes, you didn't take wide angles round corners. I remember I killed you in atrium and ran all the way to glass hallway to ambush you as you spawned without touching any RTs/powernodes and you didn't check a thing. I also remember you running around glass hallway solo, parasited, and hugging the wall making bites easy as hell. Perhaps you just aren't being critical enough of yourself and have a confirmation bias ignoring the bad things you do.
I seriously question your skill and ability to call yourself an "advanced player" and if you do actually know how the game works. I'm sure I don't even know how to set up scenarios perfectly to ensure a 100% win in engagements.
Take this for an example:
For a long long time people were convinced fast phasegates were the way forward. Then that galahad fellow (the same one who played 24 hours straight and was retweeted by ns2) commanded an obscene amount of public games over many servers. He started introducing arms lab first every game for days upon days. Arms lab first had been done before in public, but I like to think that Galahad was a major catalyst in the advent of changing the dogma of public players tech routes. Anyway, he did it time and time again and he was so successful that other commanders started doing it too, not based on theory and ideas, but based on the Galahad experience. This paradigm shift is the perfect example to show how something could be made even better than the established school of thought. You might think that you're positioning yourself correctly, but perhaps you aren't, and this is what you need to reflect on.
2. Modify the parameters of the game for that one player. I would suggest a reduction in weapon damage as a reduction in health would hamper aliens more significantly.
3. Make it clear to all players what is happening, I am considering making it appear that the player is "leveling up", although they get nerfed instead of buffed. They can show this off to other players so that highly skilled players still get their reward just structured in a different way.
You may want to ensure that your mod doesn't gimp a player for simply just performing well (maybe on a lucky kill streak or perhaps he's finally "getting it"). This is not to be confused with your goal to gimp a clearly consistently well performing "pro" player.
If I may, I would maybe flip this around and instead of gimping a pro player, just give a handicap to weaker players based on how.. "non pro" or lack of hours or skill that he has.
The less hours he has the more fortitude/damage (whatever) he will receive giving him more suitability and lethality.
This has 2 effects, it gives a weaker player more "time" to react to the fast pace nature of the game and the "pro" player would ideally have a slightly harder time dealing with the weaker player. Two weaker players would basically take longer to right each other, but I doubt they would care, again this gives them more time to adapt to one another. A "pro" player, being as good as he is, a slight bump in damage and health for the weaker player shouldn't cripple the "pro" player so much as he cannot compete.
I'm saying that I'm not the one at fault here. I play with my teammate for fun, and I play against him for fun.
Good, then play against him whenever you can, or whenever someone suggests that it's stacked.
Again, imbalanced games are not fun - unless you enjoy stomps - so there's little reason to ever be so selfish as to put your own needs and enjoyment before everyone else's.
I am not claiming you actually do one thing or the other, I am just disagreeing with your stance on the matter
The onus is on you not to ruin these games when you are slumming it, and not to negatively impact player retention... yes.. even if the rookies "stacked" marines.
So the message is: "Don't be selfish"
Like mofo says
I've seen some nice "pro" players who will try to keep it somewhat fair. They'll go Commander, or Gorge, or have fun using the pistol/axe/welder. One guy I've seen even switches teams multiple times mid-game in order to keep it balanced. Unfortunately it seems like most "pro" players make no effort at all to not ruin games.
But no, I'm trying to get people to take responsibility for their own actions.
I don't think this is asking for much.
If you cannot be selfless and put balance before all else (including your own subjective version of fun) then you do not belong in pubs, and essentially are acting the part of the big kid walking around the kiddie sandlot, kicking their sand castles for enjoyment. Be prepared to be disliked and hated on...
If you cannot be selfless and put balance before all else (including your own subjective version of fun) then you do not belong in pubs, and essentially are acting the part of the big kid walking around the kiddie sandlot, kicking their sand castles for enjoyment. Be prepared to be disliked and hated on...
I completely agree and respect this school of thought for things like "The finnish stack", although personally I love the challenge. All of my posts thus far have simply been in response to the YOclan on thursday QQ.
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
Try following:
Open http://ns2stats.com/ and look @ the last games tracked there.
Im sure you will find these "chosen ones" as someone mentioned before on 80% of these rounds.
I find a round where the OP had 13-1 on a rookie server: http://ns2stats.com/round/round/258226
Is 13-1 pub stomping? Well, looks like.
Next Step:
Fire up the game and search for full High level servers like HBZ, ACV, Vexta
You can also use http://ns2servers.devicenull.org/index.php to find out how puplated these servers are.
These "chosen ones" pub stars are only "chosen" on low level servers while they are only average or low skill on high level servers.
And thats why they dont join these servers.
These are the reasons why "no rookie" servers are not very pupular. You cant "own" there like on other servers.
So instead of whining about a missing matchmaking system, join one of the high skill servers if your skill is above the average pub level.
But as its look like many people dont want this, we have to live with "pub stomps"
Its part of the human nature that some want to be "heroes". No matter that this is on an low level rookie server against players with 4 hrs on the clock.
As a pubhero, I enjoy playing against higher skilled players and genuinely don't understand the complaints about one or two guys ruining the fun for everyone. That sort of thing should never ever happen unless every above average player on the server joins on them as well, in which case you should know who to blame.
All the high level comp players defending themselves in this thread specifically are some of the most intelligent, fair and helpful people I've played with, and the same goes for most of the rest of them. Yes, some comp players will be the uncommunicative rambo kind and/or will deliberately stack teams horrifically and not even second guess their actions after being called out on it, but those are far and few between and easily avoided during peak times.
I have over 800 hours so far... Here's the same little rundown you did after one of these "pro" players kills me...
I die (start the timer)
Why did I die?
I ambushed the Marine perfectly, got a parasite in and managed to get 1 bite off before they spun around and killed me with their precision aim.
What can I do not do die next time?
Well I ambushed as perfectly as I possibly could (they had no clue I was there until I was on top of them attacking) but their "pro" aim was SO good that I didn't even have time to get off a 2nd bite before they did a little jump spin and killed me. - So no clue whatsoever how to possibly improve upon that... Ok I guess I just have to stick to other Aliens like glue and hope we can overwhelm them.
If he kills you you didn't ambush perfectly...
So... If Mofo was the marine, and he would've been ambushed and died, would you then say that he didn't defend perfectly...?
That is why a skulks job is to parasite marines and bite rts, not to fight alone.
So wait, it doesn't matter if he ambushed perfectly, because he was doing the wrong thing all along, anyway?
I think you should make yourself aware of how this 1v1 works and not take what he is saying so literally.
2 bites comes slower than 9 rounds when it comes to the basic marine vs skulk gameplay. So charging at the marine and allowing him to get 9 rounds+ off at you is not the best idea right? Even if you get close to him and manage to bite he still can shoot you with 9 rounds faster than you can land those two bites.
So.. you ambush. You attack him from the rear or from the flank. This way the marine has to react, find you, and then start tracking you to 9 rounds.
If the marine turns around on you and gets 9 perfect rounds off (rarely happens - try counting the bullets aurally when you attack marines) then clearly you made a mistake as a skulk and gave away your presence or missed bites or... didn't stay close enough due to a movement/cursor correction error. Perfectly would imply that you started biting the marine with his back turned or flank exposed and landed the 2nd bite right as he turned on you and then you finished with a parasite or 3rd bite. When A2 comes up then you get into 4th bite territory where you'll likely lose no matter what.
There's always something to improve upon when you die. That is the point he is trying to make.
Additionally, he wasn't "doing the wrong thing all along"..
It's just that in general you won't often win the fight against an equal skilled marine due to the nature of the engagement. Thus, you should do what the skulk does best most of the time.. moving fast, and getting to the marine resources. The marine has the tactical prowess and it's just how the game is designed. You will lose most 1v1s vs marines of equal skill.. it's just how the game is balanced. You can increase your chances of success by ambushing like I was describing..
Everything I've described here is something public players are capable of and I've seen do to various degrees. I'm not talking from a competitive perspective here (though ambushing works in generally the same way in comp play) - just talking from a competent player perspective that has learned the mechanics involved in the gameplay at a public level.
Fair point. I still think, though, that reflection only works limitedly against marines/aliens that never seem to miss shots/bites. Additionally, drawing the right conclusions is hard. Especially if you consider that many pubbers don't even have an idea in which direction to think to begin with. And you have to keep player frustration in mind; you can only be killed so many times before you ragequit (yes, I know you guys have sheer infinite endurance, but let's just assume we are talking about humans ).
BUT I am far, far away from your level. So please, please don't tell me I will suddenly magically get the ability to kill you guys just by checking corners properly, or using distance to my advantage as a marine, or ambushing properly as a skulk. I already do this stuff. And you still kill me. And it baffles me. I have no idea how you do this, how freaking fast your reflexes are and how incredibly precise your aim.
I think you lost grasp to the advanced-players-who-are-not-quite-pro. We know how the game works, that's the easy stuff! You can learn it. We already learned. So don't tell me this is what you need to kill you, because everyday experience tells me that I can't take down a Wob Fade even if I suddenly got w4.
When I played against you, you didn't check ambushes, you didn't take wide angles round corners. I remember I killed you in atrium and ran all the way to glass hallway to ambush you as you spawned without touching any RTs/powernodes and you didn't check a thing. I also remember you running around glass hallway solo, parasited, and hugging the wall making bites easy as hell. Perhaps you just aren't being critical enough of yourself and have a confirmation bias ignoring the bad things you do.
I seriously question your skill and ability to call yourself an "advanced player" and if you do actually know how the game works. I'm sure I don't even know how to set up scenarios perfectly to ensure a 100% win in engagements.
[...]
Yes, that's perfectly well possible. My performance depends on my daily shape, my motivation, other stuff, because I don't have that second nature of doing all the routines perfectly yet. By that time I already had played for quite some time (which, grantedly, made my decision to leave a bit easier, too; I was tired), and in such situations it's easy to let your guard down. Still, I know that even if I would've spotted you, the majority of times you would've stilled killed me - it's not the first time I played against pros after all, I know how things usually end for me then...
Comments
That's a less flexible cap on player skill which can be appreciated as being hard to improve.
I suppose I am elitist expecting people to understand the benefits of A1>W1, standing at range from each other, running away from PGs to allow marines to spawn through at range. In my opinion these things are a case of logical and simple thinking which everyone has the ability to think about and everyone could be on the same level as each other.
Just over 3 months ago, I posted a thread on raptr willing to give tips, ideas, and play with people to help improve. I was tempted at putting it on the UWE forums but it would probably come off as conceited. Instead of making a new thread though, I will post here that I am still willing to help those that want to be helped. If you have questions or you just simply want to play with/against me to figure stuff out, go for it. A higher public skill base (by learning map reading and positional play) leads to improved quality of games and more fun for me too. I've noticed a massive increase in skill over the last 2 months or so over the YOclan/HBZ server at certain times and that's really positive.
Just don't expect me to never play with friends. Sometimes we lose when we play together, sometimes we win. So there goes the whole one team has no advantage when these players are on the same team argument. Sometimes we play against each other and the games are just as quick to end. It's not just the top players that are the problem; it's the skill disparity from all players, and if all players learnt the things that all players have access too, the skill disparity would close.
Thanks for bringing back HBZ server. It's the highest skilled server for us europeans and you are a fantastic administrator running it.
For me it was christmas 2012 where something went wrong with skill and manners. I distinctly remember after that period of time there was a sale and the community just started turning sour. Now after a lot of months I look at myself and I know I'm not much better... I want to apologise but for me that means that I won't do/say something again and I have no inclination to lie down and watch people complain about better skilled people and blame that on poor games.
Why can't this be thought of during the hour you're playing?
You die (Start the timer)
Why did I die?
I ran into the alien natural shooting the cysts having not seen an alien on the map for 10 seconds. I had no ammo, a skulk killed me.
What can I do not to die next time?
Not spend all my ammo if I haven't seen a skulk on the map for a long time, particularly on an alien natural.
Respawn.
Continue playing.
Repeat process for next hour, or for the next 300-400 hours (which people have already played and should have been doing this process all along)
I am by no means premier level player but I do play competitive. We have a better understanding of strategy and tactics then your average pubber. I was basically acting as as field commander that game helping skulks and the commander with structure placement, when to cyst, what to research, etc.
But my point is Marine players just see the KD and say, "Hey! This is a rookie friendly server. Go play somewhere else!" Even though I helped a lot that game in other ways and still managed to go 65-1.
They think this lifeforms are bad and if you go 30-1 as a fade or lerk you gotta be cheating, hacking, or just pubstomping as a comp player.
They don't understand that all the pres on the alien side are in these lifeforms and they are not supposed to die as much as a marine or skulk.
Also I gotta agree with wob. It's not THAT hard to learn the basics of this game. But how often do you see marine teams losing, because more than half of the
team is fighting a single gorge all game? You can tell these guys not to go there but to kill some other rt or do anything usefull. But it has been said here already: Most pub players just don't WANT to improve. It's probably more fun to stand in front of a gorge fortification with 6 marines spamming the clogs with shotguns and throw grenades in instead of playing the game in another way. So be it, I am ok with it, as long as these (and other) players don't complain about me playing the game the way I like it to be played...
We know that the step from being a good pubplayer to being a good competitive player is huge and the step from div1 to premier division is even bigger, but
we are not talking about high level play, we are talking about basic understading of the game. Such as not running in a room brainless without checking a single corner.
What do you think, how do we get all the kills as a skulk vs marines in the early game? By imba aim? No, we play sneaky, we set up ambushes and 90% of the pub players just fall for that. You might think when a player runs in a room, and gets killed by a skulk sitting on top of the door the player would check that spot next time, don't you? That is one of the things we mean by common gamesense, what every player should be able to achive within the first 10-30 hours of play. But for some reason this seems to be too much to ask for. Instead, when a skulk tries to ambush us comp players (who check almost every corner entering a room) and we kill that skulk we are wallhacking...
Just gotta say, these are the things that come across as being extremely elitist... To continually suggest that we're doing bad against these "pro" players because we're making rookie mistakes like ground skulking or spamming ammo needlessly... It's as if you really have no clue what it's like to be an average player against someone whose skill level is so far above your own you have zero hope...
I have over 800 hours so far... Here's the same little rundown you did after one of these "pro" players kills me...
I die (start the timer)
Why did I die?
I ambushed the Marine perfectly, got a parasite in and managed to get 1 bite off before they spun around and killed me with their precision aim.
What can I do not do die next time?
Well I ambushed as perfectly as I possibly could (they had no clue I was there until I was on top of them attacking) but their "pro" aim was SO good that I didn't even have time to get off a 2nd bite before they did a little jump spin and killed me. - So no clue whatsoever how to possibly improve upon that... Ok I guess I just have to stick to other Aliens like glue and hope we can overwhelm them.
Respawn.
Ok look the "pro" is rushing into our main and there's 5 of us here... lets all hit him together.
We're all dead (start the timer)
Why did we die?
We waited until he was close then rushed in as a group, jumping off walls and darting back and forth while trying to close the gap. Didn't matter, he effortlessly dropped all 5 of us with shotgun and pistol amid a shower of med packs.
What can we do to not die next time?
Nothing at all really, pretty impossible to kill someone who can effortlessly drop 5 skulks... Oh well, lets try going Lerk... I'm really good as a Lerk after all.
Respawn
Ok the "pro" is still pushing our main hive, lets evolve to Lerk and fly over there... Ok there he is, going to hit him from behind along with a few Skulks...
We're all dead again (start the timer)
Why did we die?
Too much of a gap in skill levels, plain and simple. We did everything right, I'm using my best life form, playing at the top of my game... He dropped all of us with ease again... even finished my Lerk with one of those "pro" pistol shots as I was trying to retreat around the corner...
What can we do to not die next time?
Well we can start by avoiding that "pro" because they're going to dominate no matter what we do... Follow that up by holding x and clicking on vote concede. Then hope that they choose to leave the server before the next game starts...
It is not hard, but people do not want to improve, but blame other people.
I Ambush, they don't check corner, they die -> I am pubstomping.
They ambush, I check corner, they die -> I am pubstomping / wallhacking.
It is ALWAYS the other players fault, in this case competitive players are the evil guys destroying pub games. It is not the average pub players fault that they play brainless, no, it's our fault because we stack. Do you get what we are talking about?
Of course we know how that feels like, but do you know what I did, when I jsut started palying and ran into one of the Archaea "gods" (at that time their skill seemd unreachable for me) on a pub server? While every one else was flaming that player who just wanted to warm up for a game or have some fun with the game he has played all over the alpha and beta I just tried to get a kill on that guy. I remember playing a marine round on decent vs fana lerking, in the end he had a kd of about 60-1. He completeley stomped us, I porbably died to him 10-15 times. But can't you imagine how happy I was being the guy who killed him once?
If he kills you you didn't ambush perfectly... And what do you think how often that happens to us in competitive games? The best comms medpack those marines after the first bite you get in and you die. That is why a skulks job is to parasite marines and bite rts, not to fight alone. If you want to kill a good marine player get him parasited, group up and kill him with more than 1 skulk coming from different directions.
Really rush in as a group, not running on the walls with 3 skulks, while 2 already jump into his shotgun.
There is hardly any competitive player who can solo 5 skulks that engage proberly in a hiveroom. If someone pulls that of (ofc it happens) it happens because that player has a good day, a comm medding and not perfectly engaging skulks.
Because you tried to melee a (as you should have noticed by now) very good marine player instead of spiking his armor down and letting the skulks engage.
Don't go melee vs a good shotgunner and retreat when you are low enough to get killed by pistol.
For me, a "stacked game" is a game where the majority of skill is blatantly grouped in one team, which leads to a predictable loss for the other team.
"Stacking" a game would be the act of deliberately joining the stronger team even though you are high-skilled by yourself disregarding any balancing thoughts.
Terms like "rookie stack" could be derived from this (e.g. a rookie stack would be stacking inversed).
Now, let's take a hypothetical scenario. We let a prem div team fight a bunch of rookies (this is an intentionally crass example). You wouldn't argue that the rookies stand no chance, right? You don't need to assign any arbitrary numbers or do complex mathematics.
In between those prem div players and the bunch of rookies there's a myriad of skill grades in between. Each player probably has their own; and while they by far don't play consistently on this very same level, they will usually move in a certain range around it.
Once you get to know this player better, you gain a feeling for how good this one is in a team he is playing on. If you play on a server with lots of people like these - which you optimally would, as you would play on a community server with lots of regulars, like I do - you have at least a chance to judge the strength of certain teams and balance them out, and for me, it usually works very well.
Still, there are no mathematics involved and I'm not throwing around arbitrary numbers; it's a feeling in my guts, and it works.
And this is experience I use to determine whether I view a game as stacked or not. I'm not devaluing or disrespecting anyone here. I don't use any symbolism. And I certainly don't view anyone as gods.
Oh, I do understand perfectly what he said. He said:
If these players can't be bothered to spend 5 minutes a night trying to improve, why should I be disallowed to play with my friends, or flamed for playing with friends who are similar in that they want to learn to play better?
This, formulated ab it differently, reads: "If my enemies are not willing to try to improve at the game, I should not be disallowed to play [against them] with my friends."
And yes, this does heavily imply "If my enemies are not willing to learn, I am allowed to stack"
But let's take a look at the underlying "13 seconds" argument in detail. (Also take a look at Mofo's post, I think he perfectly puts across how I feel.)
(more important parts highlighted)
You seem to think we are some kind of rookies who neither want nor can improve; lack basic understanding of the game and would only need to understand a few simple concepts to beat you.
If that's the case, you are wrong.
I know about the benefits of a1/w1. I know how to place and handle phase gates. I know the importance of harassing and defending RTs. I know where and when to defend or place armories and observatories, when an attack on a RT with a shotgun is futile or game changing. I check corners. I ambush, both as alien and marine, I know how to keep my Onos alive, what to do as a gorge, where to hide as a skulk. I know the maps by heart. I understand and try to apply basic concepts of zoning, how to distract a marine as a skulk so my friend can kill, how to draw an enemies attention somewhere else. I know how a cloaked skulk looks like, how to react to a shade start, how to check for ambushes. I know how to properly walk around corners, how to walljump, how a fade should move and how a Lerk shouldn't. I know that a a0 marine dies to a parasite and two bites, and that w0 shotguns are useless. I know how to place mines.
I know more than enough to carry a really nooby team.
BUT I am far, far away from your level. So please, please don't tell me I will suddenly magically get the ability to kill you guys just by checking corners properly, or using distance to my advantage as a marine, or ambushing properly as a skulk. I already do this stuff. And you still kill me. And it baffles me. I have no idea how you do this, how freaking fast your reflexes are and how incredibly precise your aim.
I think you lost grasp to the advanced-players-who-are-not-quite-pro. We know how the game works, that's the easy stuff! You can learn it. We already learned. So don't tell me this is what you need to kill you, because everyday experience tells me that I can't take down a Wob Fade even if I suddenly got w4.
I'd like to counter this::
with this:
Oh come on.
edit: format
So... If Mofo was the marine, and he would've been ambushed and died, would you then say that he didn't defend perfectly...?
...
Also:
So wait, it doesn't matter if he ambushed perfectly, because he was doing the wrong thing all along, anyway?
I've started working on a handicap mod ever since I had Anzestral drop by on one of the JonMo & ShellMo servers and empty it due to the immense skill imbalance. We spoke about it at the time since i'm in the uncomfortable position of not wanting to kick someone simply because they are good (don't we all wish to achieve that at some point?), however I cannot allow one person to significantly impact the experience for the other 17 players playing on the server.
Let me make it clear what the problem is here.
The problem is the huge skill disparity ruining the experience for the majority, which tends to empty the game server.
Things that are NOT important.
1. It doesn't matter who is to blame.
2. Solutions which don't act fast enough to stop the server from emptying (which makes all "learn to play" solutions irrelevant, you aren't realistically going to raise the skill level of the entire player base any time soon).
My observations
1. You aren't going to change the behavior of anyone simply by asking.
2. The player base isn't big enough to segregate by skill level.
3. Average players don't have the time or inclination to reach pro status and cannot be blamed for that.
4. Skilled players also want to play the game and for various reasons will not always 'tone it down'.
My requirements for a solution
1. We make automatic adjustments to the game in real time.
2. We do not require anyone to change their behavior.
3. We need to give some positive reinforcement for the automatic system (it can't just be a punishment).
4. Nobody should be mislead or frustrated.
5. We try not to change the experience from stock for rookies (so they do not learn something modified)
My proposed solution
1. Detect a pro player stomping (not just their presence) perhaps by looking into a combination of score, K/D and accuracy, then using an algorithm to detect outliers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outlier#Identifying_outliers
2. Modify the parameters of the game for that one player. I would suggest a reduction in weapon damage as a reduction in health would hamper aliens more significantly.
3. Make it clear to all players what is happening, I am considering making it appear that the player is "leveling up", although they get nerfed instead of buffed. They can show this off to other players so that highly skilled players still get their reward just structured in a different way.
Note that we don't have to get this perfectly balanced, it should only impact outliers which is rare, and it only needs to be a better solution than kicking people.
It feels like it turned into some kind of "We can't kill competitive players, please do not play pub anymore" thread, since obviously already the presence of one single competitive player on a pub server is too much and game killing.
Probably yes. In that case the skulk got a better ambush (maybe he waited for Mofo reloading after killing a cyst?) and/or Mofo didn't check corners carefully.
If he died during his ambush it sounds like it was not the right thing to do, doesn't it? Maybe getting a parasite on the marine and going on resbiting forcing the marine to defend the rt would have been better? Or just getting the parasite and playing some hide and seek with the marine waiting for lerks/fades to kill him so he could go on biting res? That is exactly the way it is done in high level competitive play. You see? No imba movement, imba aim or anything, just playing a bit more defensive not going for the kill but trying to waste the marines time and actually achive something for the team by biting res.
And what I just wrote is a perfect example of what wob is trying to say. After you die (even when you think your ambush was perfect) stop blaming the other player just for being better and killing you. Start thinkin what YOU could have done better.
uninstall guys !
I think you should make yourself aware of how this 1v1 works and not take what he is saying so literally.
2 bites comes slower than 9 rounds when it comes to the basic marine vs skulk gameplay. So charging at the marine and allowing him to get 9 rounds+ off at you is not the best idea right? Even if you get close to him and manage to bite he still can shoot you with 9 rounds faster than you can land those two bites.
So.. you ambush. You attack him from the rear or from the flank. This way the marine has to react, find you, and then start tracking you to 9 rounds.
If the marine turns around on you and gets 9 perfect rounds off (rarely happens - try counting the bullets aurally when you attack marines) then clearly you made a mistake as a skulk and gave away your presence or missed bites or... didn't stay close enough due to a movement/cursor correction error. Perfectly would imply that you started biting the marine with his back turned or flank exposed and landed the 2nd bite right as he turned on you and then you finished with a parasite or 3rd bite. When A2 comes up then you get into 4th bite territory where you'll likely lose no matter what.
There's always something to improve upon when you die. That is the point he is trying to make.
Additionally, he wasn't "doing the wrong thing all along"..
It's just that in general you won't often win the fight against an equal skilled marine due to the nature of the engagement. Thus, you should do what the skulk does best most of the time.. moving fast, and getting to the marine resources. The marine has the tactical prowess and it's just how the game is designed. You will lose most 1v1s vs marines of equal skill.. it's just how the game is balanced. You can increase your chances of success by ambushing like I was describing..
Everything I've described here is something public players are capable of and I've seen do to various degrees. I'm not talking from a competitive perspective here (though ambushing works in generally the same way in comp play) - just talking from a competent player perspective that has learned the mechanics involved in the gameplay at a public level.
Really? That's too bad, HBZ was the only pub server I still enjoyed playing on, even though I don't play pubs that often anymore.
I've realized competitive online gaming is fun, but at the end of the day it's just a reflection of the real world: People ganging up on the weak, elitism, doing whatever it takes to win, cheating *gasp*, obnoxious people who love to hear themselves speak, people who are allergic to teamwork, etc. I think the Natural Selection 2 game is very, very good, but the community itself is the Achilles heel. Then again, I don't think any competitive online game has a good community; the competitive aspect always brings out the worst in people.
Don't really have a point here. Just wanted to say that.
When I played against you, you didn't check ambushes, you didn't take wide angles round corners. I remember I killed you in atrium and ran all the way to glass hallway to ambush you as you spawned without touching any RTs/powernodes and you didn't check a thing. I also remember you running around glass hallway solo, parasited, and hugging the wall making bites easy as hell. Perhaps you just aren't being critical enough of yourself and have a confirmation bias ignoring the bad things you do.
I seriously question your skill and ability to call yourself an "advanced player" and if you do actually know how the game works. I'm sure I don't even know how to set up scenarios perfectly to ensure a 100% win in engagements.
Take this for an example:
For a long long time people were convinced fast phasegates were the way forward. Then that galahad fellow (the same one who played 24 hours straight and was retweeted by ns2) commanded an obscene amount of public games over many servers. He started introducing arms lab first every game for days upon days. Arms lab first had been done before in public, but I like to think that Galahad was a major catalyst in the advent of changing the dogma of public players tech routes. Anyway, he did it time and time again and he was so successful that other commanders started doing it too, not based on theory and ideas, but based on the Galahad experience. This paradigm shift is the perfect example to show how something could be made even better than the established school of thought. You might think that you're positioning yourself correctly, but perhaps you aren't, and this is what you need to reflect on.
You may want to ensure that your mod doesn't gimp a player for simply just performing well (maybe on a lucky kill streak or perhaps he's finally "getting it"). This is not to be confused with your goal to gimp a clearly consistently well performing "pro" player.
If I may, I would maybe flip this around and instead of gimping a pro player, just give a handicap to weaker players based on how.. "non pro" or lack of hours or skill that he has.
The less hours he has the more fortitude/damage (whatever) he will receive giving him more suitability and lethality.
This has 2 effects, it gives a weaker player more "time" to react to the fast pace nature of the game and the "pro" player would ideally have a slightly harder time dealing with the weaker player. Two weaker players would basically take longer to right each other, but I doubt they would care, again this gives them more time to adapt to one another. A "pro" player, being as good as he is, a slight bump in damage and health for the weaker player shouldn't cripple the "pro" player so much as he cannot compete.
Again, imbalanced games are not fun - unless you enjoy stomps - so there's little reason to ever be so selfish as to put your own needs and enjoyment before everyone else's.
I am not claiming you actually do one thing or the other, I am just disagreeing with your stance on the matter
The onus is on you not to ruin these games when you are slumming it, and not to negatively impact player retention... yes.. even if the rookies "stacked" marines.
So the message is: "Don't be selfish"
Like mofo says and like you said: I don't think this is asking for much.
If you cannot be selfless and put balance before all else (including your own subjective version of fun) then you do not belong in pubs, and essentially are acting the part of the big kid walking around the kiddie sandlot, kicking their sand castles for enjoyment. Be prepared to be disliked and hated on...
I completely agree and respect this school of thought for things like "The finnish stack", although personally I love the challenge. All of my posts thus far have simply been in response to the YOclan on thursday QQ.
Open http://ns2stats.com/ and look @ the last games tracked there.
Im sure you will find these "chosen ones" as someone mentioned before on 80% of these rounds.
I find a round where the OP had 13-1 on a rookie server:
http://ns2stats.com/round/round/258226
Is 13-1 pub stomping? Well, looks like.
Next Step:
Fire up the game and search for full High level servers like HBZ, ACV, Vexta
You can also use http://ns2servers.devicenull.org/index.php to find out how puplated these servers are.
These "chosen ones" pub stars are only "chosen" on low level servers while they are only average or low skill on high level servers.
And thats why they dont join these servers.
These are the reasons why "no rookie" servers are not very pupular. You cant "own" there like on other servers.
So instead of whining about a missing matchmaking system, join one of the high skill servers if your skill is above the average pub level.
But as its look like many people dont want this, we have to live with "pub stomps"
Its part of the human nature that some want to be "heroes". No matter that this is on an low level rookie server against players with 4 hrs on the clock.
All the high level comp players defending themselves in this thread specifically are some of the most intelligent, fair and helpful people I've played with, and the same goes for most of the rest of them. Yes, some comp players will be the uncommunicative rambo kind and/or will deliberately stack teams horrifically and not even second guess their actions after being called out on it, but those are far and few between and easily avoided during peak times.
Fair point. I still think, though, that reflection only works limitedly against marines/aliens that never seem to miss shots/bites. Additionally, drawing the right conclusions is hard. Especially if you consider that many pubbers don't even have an idea in which direction to think to begin with. And you have to keep player frustration in mind; you can only be killed so many times before you ragequit (yes, I know you guys have sheer infinite endurance, but let's just assume we are talking about humans
Yes, that's perfectly well possible. My performance depends on my daily shape, my motivation, other stuff, because I don't have that second nature of doing all the routines perfectly yet. By that time I already had played for quite some time (which, grantedly, made my decision to leave a bit easier, too; I was tired), and in such situations it's easy to let your guard down. Still, I know that even if I would've spotted you, the majority of times you would've stilled killed me - it's not the first time I played against pros after all, I know how things usually end for me then...