I for one like to join HBZ and other clan-run pub servers for the very reason that I am more likely to find and play against div1/prem div players there. Even if I end up on the same team as one of these players, I am looking to learn from them and better myself.
But then I'm just a div 3 scrub, so the worst of both worlds: comp, so therefore evil in the eyes of the pubbers; and div3, so essentially a pubber to div1/prem players.
I for one like to join HBZ and other clan-run pub servers for the very reason that I am more likely to find and play against div1/prem div players there. Even if I end up on the same team as one of these players, I am looking to learn from them and better myself.
But then I'm just a div 3 scrub, so the worst of both worlds: comp, so therefore evil in the eyes of the pubbers; and div3, so essentially a pubber to div1/prem players.
How are you only in div 3? Last time I played comp Div 3 was like, the remmies :P
I'll think you'll find Yo has always been "rookie friendly".
Yep, we try to be "everyone friendly". From people just starting out to the seriously good players. The only people we don't want are nasty pasties who deliberately try to ruin the fun atmosphere we try to have (be it intentional stacking to ruin games, abusive behavior or cheating/exploiting, etc.). Trouble is that 'stacking' is often subjective so it's difficult to make that call as an admin.
By the way, people who play on our server can get instant help from an admin (providing we are around, we usually are) by typing !admin xxxx in the in-game chat, if you think someone is ruining the fun and we will investigate, like inspector gadget.
There is a solution to the all mighty call of "stack!!!11" ( which is more and more common in Yo Clan games btw ), which is team captain. Each team captain choose one player in turn. Team captain can be chosen randomly from a team of regular. Yo Clan is a prime target for an experiment like this ( wink wink MeatMachine ), as we pretty much know each other for a long time.
It's a great idea and we used to to this during our "Regs Nights" but it just takes sooo frickin long. I don't think it's suitable for everyday pub playing although I'm willing to be outvoted on that
I've hit my skill limit. I've played 400 hours or so and I'm pretty good at the planning and commanding but just above average at everything else.
My ideal game is one where it lasts about 30 minutes, there is a bit of back and forth and one team wins after a dedicated push. It's fun, I have a few laughs. I'm not warming up for anything, this is my free time.
What happens in most games is a base is rushed, the game is over at four minutes and I'm sat in my chair pondering why I could even be bothered to load up the game.
Not at one point do I feel the outcome of the game is down to me being shit, how the hell do you expect me to get better when I can't even get a decent game in.
At the point when an excellent player joins the game and kills me constantly, I don't feel like it's my fault, none of the blame hangs over my head I just quit and play something else.
The environment of the game at the moment will never encourage people to play more and get better, it's just going to force people to leave. The blame for this isn't one sided, crappy players maybe could do with learning how to play, but you need to stop believing you are infallible because you like to 'warm up' by ruining the enjoyment of others. It's as simple as that.
Is this partly down to the current balance of the game allowing a single player to shine so bright? No idea. What I do know is that it's only going to take a few more games with horrendously stacked teams for me to go looking elsewhere.
tl;dr : In a short amount of time there won't be any servers for you to warm up on.
You look like you are exactly what this game is missing the most, a decent player. As I said, I don't expect you to push yourself over your limit during your free time if you don't want to. Just the minimum to have a decent game. You will still get killed a good amount of time by an excellent player. It's expected, if you are the only decent player around. But if you are enough you are going to overcome this excellent player, go on with your game and it will be more enjoyable for everyone.
But apparently it's not happening, and it's not your fault, and you get frustrated. Is it the excellent player's fault ? Can you blame him for being more dedicated on a game on his free time than you ? I don't think so.
I wrote a load of stuff and deleted it because I wasn't saying anything that hasn't already being mentioned. I personally don't think the blame is on any particular person and I know the frustration of finding a game all too well (even I'm a lot better than green's or newly whites).
Actually, what I can blame is the balance of the game. Which has shifted towards favouring those who are better at tracking/jumping. This is the problem when the game is balanced for competitive play rather than balancing it as a game. Exo's are shit, jetpack and shotgun are the only versatile attack methods and Aliens can be stunted very early on if your team doesn't have an amazing lerk. The game has been streamlined so much half of the tactics built in don't actually work. Bring back the days of slow and powerful Exos, useful flamethrowers and Onos that were feared.
Damn, I'm getting all nostalgic at something that was only about a year ago. I think I might of prefered NS2 when everything had a bit more bang and the game wasn't decided in the first few battles.
I know there is a competitive mod, but has anyone thought of having an 'unbalanced but fun' mod (it could be called 'Mutated'). Might actually bring back some spirit back into the game (and would be a positive solution instead of trying to handicap the decent player base).
With a mod, it could change and evolve. Obviously the focus would be on creating epic moments, rather than having games resolved quickly. I'd rather concede on an hour long tug and war than play ten minutes on a rush. Maybe the game just needs a little more comeback mechanics.
Sorry i didn't read everything but one thing doesn't make any sense to me.
Why should it be the good player that are part of the problem and not the rookies ?
From my window i see things this way:
Player buys the game ; install, launch and immediately browse the server list. I would say it's a FPS typical player. This guy didn't read the game infos as it was cheap to buy. So why bother with tutorial while he thinks it's another shooter (FPS) ? Everything has been made for them to be able to "instant play" (not this game specifically).
Consequences :
They just get "flashed". New players joining a server with no clue of what to do (individual) and not even a single clue about the game mechanics. On the first part this player will eventually get better at engaging the enemy after a little training but not on the other part (which is as important as the rest). I do believe it is why these players can be called "wave player". They will spawn, move forward, shoot, go forward, shoot, and then die. It's like a fluid that flows on the map. So it ends up in the "choke point" situation. Let's say you see a gorge blockade (clogs+hydras) and endless waves of marine and skulk that fight here. As I've seen it many times; not a single player from both teams will try route B to avoid the choke point and eventually flank the enemy (or do something better).
Usually they don't listen to anything the commander (or callers) say for many reasons.
-They need more direction on the each map.
-They don't have that culture on other games (run, shoot, die syndrome).
-They simply don't speak the same language.
-They don't care (yes some are like that) about the results as they are testing.
-They focus on whats moving.
Everybody complaints about stacking but what about taking care of this issue by the other way ? The main problem is misunderstanding from each class of players.
Vets:
-They play to win.
-The play for fun with a decent sense of tactics. If they want Fades and Onie they'll have to defend RTs a little isn't it.
-They don't like ppl that just play alone. Loosing because of bad teamwork is worse than a game lost but with proper teamwork. And annoying as hell i believe.
-They listen to the commander. More or less in pub but better than nothing at all.
-They do ninja stuff really useful.
-They always try the other route fast enough.
-They focus on killing RTs first then if possible the enemy. Both if "Uber godlike player is in da house".
I believe it's both type of player behavior that is the cause.
I throw ideas like that and i don't expect them to be perfect and won't debate about it. It's just thinking the other way as an example.
1 The new player needs a little training for both aspect of the game. Fight of course and a little discipline.
A-The tutorial in the game is providing knowledge of the basic things. Why not using it to disable the server browser until the tutorial is completed. Yes the voice sound isn't perfect and yes it isn't a "thrilling episode" in a gamers life but is teaches the right basic things you have to know. In fact i vote for more development on this area. Up to jet pack guys!
Yes it's a lock. It forces ppl to do something before playing for real. Well if it produce better results than getting stomped whatever a stack is here or not. why not ?
B-Why not using a basic setup tutorial and throw at him/her some challenges.
Maps are already here. Bots can be activated on demand (like in tutorial). It's a set up not far from "playing with bot". That should do for the basic engagements. After 20 minutes of this, the player will know that trying to run won't unlock the ambush situation.
Challenges like:
-Go there (selecting one route only), it's a hive/base. On the road he'll meet some enemies. If he take the other route... bad news, big thing over here.
-"stay put with the ARCs"... and such.
Many situations that require a simple objective, and in which throwing enemies at him is normal, can be proposed.
-Go there... no go there... (arh arh)
If this player can understand the basic concepts (and finish the interactive tutorial) before joining a server in less than an hour, i tell you my friend it's an hour that worth 30 hours at least.
2 He needs to understand what are asking the commander and/or other players
Even with basic training this new player needs a little more than that. He doesn't know all the maps, and maybe he will be overwhelmed by the things happening in the game. The pace isn't the same. Plus if this new player have a rather bad understanding of English (for example), it's gonna be a mess. I wouldn't count to much on education these days. Gamers are young too.
A-Why not having a little more messages for communication. We have plenty but not all of them are used. It goes from requests to the commander to voice taunt and such. I never hear the "enemy nearby" though it exists (if i remember correctly). What about replacing this unused messages by actual request from teammates to teammates ? The ping is not enough for rookies.
Like "Help requested here". Or specifying a target. All rookies with a low hour count will have (by default) a WP and path (bright yellow this time) to designated targets by other field players. It won't explain the "why" the at least the "what to do". It will save many hours for teachers too. I mean teachers would have the tools to give instruction (not orders) to others.
Let's say it's the first little flights out of the nest for rookies. It won't be the greatest experiences as it can be killing Rts but at least it would be more successful than not flying at all (egg lock in hive).
Then when the wings are grown they can do some more stuff.
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
edited May 2014
I have fired up a rookie friendly HBZ server just for testing.
No high level players can stomp there cause it runs with following limits:
- max ns2stats ELO of 1600
- 50 hrs max playtime
Name: Heidis baby lamb Land [HBZ]
Why im doing this?
Cause servers like "Rookies paradise" are more "rookies nightmare"
Rookies get stomped there nonstop.
Did someone remember the rookie fun tourney at the LAN in sweden? (im sure it was in sweden correct me if im wrong ) and the way these players learn the game?
They can learn the basics by themself and there is no need for advice of experienced players.
If you are not willing to do the minimum to ensure a better game for everyone, why should I ?
Because if you go around emptying servers of rookies, they leave the game permanently and you have even less places to play now.
Conversely, if the rookie doesn't bother learning, it's not going to empty a server and it's not going to make you - a veteran of the game - leave NS2.
Do you see how this is linear and only goes in one direction?
You know what though.. Both sides of this argument are beginning to make me sick with their so called reasons for a lack of effort.
Both sides want player retention, right? Both sides want more friends to play with and more places to play, right?
Then both sides need to stop blaming, stop whining, stop pretending your way is better, start realizing the delicate and finite nature of player counts and how you impact this by being accountable and mature, and maybe.. just maybe.. everybody might get along, learn a thing or two, and have fun at the same time.
Crazy notion, I know.
If you are not willing to do the minimum to ensure a better game for everyone, why should I ?
Because if you go around emptying servers of rookies, they leave the game permanently and you have even less places to play now.
Conversely, if the rookie doesn't bother learning, it's not going to empty a server and it's not going to make you - a veteran of the game - leave NS2.
Do you see how this is linear and only goes in one direction?
You know what though.. Both sides of this argument are beginning to make me sick with their so called reasons.
Both sides want player retention, right? Both sides want more friends to play with and more places to play, right?
Then both sides need to stop blaming, stop whining, stop pretending your way is better, start realizing the delicate and finite nature of player counts and how you impact this by being accountable and mature, and maybe.. just maybe.. everybody might get along, learn a thing or two, and have fun at the same time.
Crazy notion, I know.
Sorry i didn't read everything but one thing doesn't make any sense to me.
Why should it be the good player that are part of the problem and not the rookies ?
From my window i see things this way:
Player buys the game ; install, launch and immediately browse the server list. I would say it's a FPS typical player. This guy didn't read the game infos as it was cheap to buy. So why bother with tutorial while he thinks it's another shooter (FPS) ? Everything has been made for them to be able to "instant play" (not this game specifically).
[...]
Yeah, that's a nice post and all, but we are not talking about these kind of players. (At least I am not.) The problem is not (primarily) the skill difference between complete newbies and vets, but the disparity between vets and godlike-vets.
I'm not going to write a fucking book on this... after reading all of the posts I've summed this up as
Prem/Div1 Comp players are getting the beef because they "stack"
However, the best way to get better is to play people better than yourself/team.
The outcome of the game is not always dependent on 1 or 2 players (regardless of their skill, NS2 is more about teamwork)
Pub players should learn to not solo skulk marines and go in packs and harass res/base/whatever. You have to learn how to talk to your teammates. Hence why people like to play with friends.
This game is just not balanced for different skilled players. It's always been this way. One or two really good players can ruin games. It shouldn't work like that. Huge reason for lack of player retrention. Also causes these community schisms. No game should be that way (not that there aren't), but it causes too many problem.
If you are not willing to do the minimum to ensure a better game for everyone, why should I ?
Because if you go around emptying servers of rookies, they leave the game permanently and you have even less places to play now.
Conversely, if the rookie doesn't bother learning, it's not going to empty a server and it's not going to make you - a veteran of the game - leave NS2.
Do you see how this is linear and only goes in one direction?
Please Reread my post. Or any div1/prem player's post in this thread. We are not going around emptying rookie servers. It's like talking to a wall. We avoid the rookie servers because this is not what we are looking for.
And if I am not allowed to join any server, to prevent the poor little defenseless rookies who don't want to learn sh*t from leaving the game, I might not leave NS2, but I am effectivly not playing it. Not much difference there.
Do you see how this is not linear and actually goes in both directions?
Both sides want player retention, right? Both sides want more friends to play with and more places to play, right?
Then both sides need to stop blaming, stop whining, stop pretending your way is better, start realizing the delicate and finite nature of player counts and how you impact this by being accountable and mature, and maybe.. just maybe.. everybody might get along, learn a thing or two, and have fun at the same time.
Crazy notion, I know.
I am already doing what I can. I am suggesting exactly what you are suggesting. Basically everyone has to do its part.
But then when people suck and get dominated ingame and don't do a thing to arrange the situation I am the one being shat on. I am one of the player who like the game enough to dedicate time and effort to become good at it, take it seriously, arguably one of the player who like it the most, who wants it to be successful the most. But there you are on the forum telling me I am the plague and I should not even think about joining a game because I am too good and I am gonna kill the community, because I am scaring away those so much more valuable to the game than me rookies who won't even bother learning it, and therefore are gonna get tired of it soon enough anyway ?
Does that kind of logic make sense ? Doesn't it seem backward to you ? Does me expecting people playing this game to learn its basics makes me an arrogant, selfish, elitist assh*le ? Does that cost me the right to simply PLAY THE GAME I LIKE ??? "Sorry king_yo, you're overqualified, I don't want my baddies to leave the game, so f*ck off please !"
I know you are the kind of guy who cares about this game and community enough to actually take the time to help people on the forum and all, wich shows you are dedicated. I am really surprised by your post. I would have expected you to understand my point of view, and understand that we div1/prem players realise that being a rookie facing us isn't a fun position to be in, and we are not seeking that. It is not fun for us either. But we do not come down to the forum creating threads about how much everyone sucks, whining, blaming others. If my arguments are making you sick, well I am sorry, but put yourself in my shoes. I feel wrongly attacked and I am responding with what I feel is a reasonable and not out of reality answer.
It feels like you quoted 1 line from my post and never read the rest.
If you are not willing to do the minimum to ensure a better game for everyone, why should I ?
Because if you go around emptying servers of rookies, they leave the game permanently and you have even less places to play now.
Conversely, if the rookie doesn't bother learning, it's not going to empty a server and it's not going to make you - a veteran of the game - leave NS2.
Do you see how this is linear and only goes in one direction?
There needs to be places to play for both ends of the spectrum that aren't being infringed upon.
Some community servers attempt to do that - but it's something that UWE for the most part hasn't addressed since day 1.
The rookie friendly idea and implementation imo is almost a joke.
It's like a sign that says "come here to rape rookies!".
There's nothing stopping the people that are elo whoring - and doesn't really stop rookies from stumbling into veteran servers and getting rolled whilst having a bad experience.
The community was essentially promised an organized play system and that never happened. All we have left is mods that somewhat resolve the issue. [No Rookies] and other things through the Shine admin system.
I think the perception of this whole issue is remarkably different depending on where you sit in the "skill tree".
So I will describe a scenario I see often enough on my servers that I've started writing a mod to try and counter it.
I'm not saying that this is exactly the way things are just that this is my perception of it, just so that I don't offend anyone.
I would say my server typically has a fairly reasonable distribution of player skills on it. Most often we get quite good games. (we typically have 5-6 admins on at a time too).
1. We get a few league players Div2 - Div3 mostly. I think they tend to tone it down though and be playing games to relax when on my servers.
2. We get mostly players like myself that just mostly pub. My close friends group ranges from having 500-1000 hours in the game. We know how to do all the right things quite well, but don't have amazing aiming skills or anything like that.
3. We get a few genuinely green rookies. Some that listen, some that don't. Loads more when a sale is on (which incidentally causes very similar problems, but that is offset by how good it is to get new people involved).
Everyone tends to have a good time, nobody tends to be unstoppable, some people clearly pull away from everyone else in K:D ratio but nobody seems to mind much.
Then a very highly skilled player drops by, and rightly so because at this point the server is probably indicating quite a high skill in the server browser so I don't blame them at all.
After a few minutes everyone starts to feel a very different way. Suddenly there is a very real and noticeable perception that there is 'that person' who doesn't seem to miss a shot, and doesn't seem to make a mistake. They can pin down an entire half of the map by themselves by blocking an exit out of the hive. Team morale hits the deck. Its not like when you normally go up against someone better than yourself, who might beat you 5 times for every 1 time you can take them down. It just feels absolutely hopeless. The marines on the other side might be having a good time at this point, or maybe not, some just like to win, others don't feel like their contribution even matters.
It is at this point people start complaining to me on steam friends, and want me to do something about it. I look at the situation, I see a large number of my players having a really bad experience. I can see its because of the obvious expansion of the skill disparity which happened when the pro player joined. I explore my options to restore the skill range skills to something sensible;
1. I could kick the pro player from the server. This seems crazy though, they haven't done anything wrong! They have clearly invested a significant amount of time into the game and/or have a great natural talent for it which really should be celebrated!
2. I could kick roughly the bottom 75% of the players from the server, the lower division players could probably give this person a good run. This feels bad because they haven't done anything wrong either, and they represent the majority which i'm not sure if it should matters but seems to hold some weight with me.
3. I could do nothing at all. I get to avoid a hard decision, and people do have an option which they invariably take. They leave. When the server drops down to 3 or 4 people left it then dies.
I always take option 3, but I hate seeing the server die. I just want to find a way so that games don't feel quite this bad when the skill range is absolutely enormous.
I feel like a pro player could write a description of how that same game would feel from their perspective. I really want to understand what it feels like to be on the other side of this. To be that person that is despised for doing nothing wrong. I also want to know what they would suggest to me, not as a player, but as a server admin about what they think I should do when this happens.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
What I noticed lately from around 21.00-22.00 UTC in EU is that with the following filters/rules:
* below 100 ms
* nothing above 20 slots, 18 or lower prefered.
* Ns2 or ns2+ or Compmod.
* Not empty / near empty for eons. (yes I do seed if I have time)
* Not full nonstop (yes I queue if time allows)
The choices of available servers drop to like... 3. All rookie friendly. I doubt I am alone in this situation.
In these runs I see plenty of players:
* below my skill
* some on my skill
* some above my skill.
What usually happens is that pretty much every player with a minimum level of brains attempts to help the rookies by comming, advice, training a 'weaker' weapon or lifeform etc.
Rookies will still get killed.
By the time they FINALLY listen and realise that perhaps it IS a good idea to 'stay in groups' and 'get of the floor' we are usually loads of rookie deaths further.
(Not to mention me getting slaughtered by anyone on same or better skill ahem )
While I fully support not driving away rookies, helping rookies and going easy on the greens, it is so that even while doing that they will die.. A lot. And them not listening, not doing any tutorials does add to this problem.
Ive seen the 'quality' of rookies steadily decline every rookie wave for a few patches now, and I seriously wonder why that is.
While I obviously agree there are issues on both sides that require addressing, neither side helps the situation by essentially saying "you first." it's just a childish standoff at that point.
Yes, it is childish to say: "L2P so I don't have to play in a kiddie league or be held accountable for imbalanced games", like you said.. just as much as it is to say "you've killed the community! Go somewhere else, you're all the same!" or worse, scream bloody murder every time there is the slightest imbalance.. Instead of taking it as a challenge to improve oneself.
If you get that point, then you'll realize our posts have quite a bit in common. ;-)
The notable difference between my post and yours is that I'm suggesting both sides not use an excuse to justify an action. Just be an awesome community member, always.
And that is why I plucked that sentence exclusively out of your post.. Because it sounded like you were irrationally expecting some immediate and drastic change from the other side if the fence to occur first, in order to justify you being awesome.
(for the record, I wouldn't go around proclaiming or denying that vets empty servers.. It does happen.. Everyone's seen it.. I'm not saying you or anyone in particular does it.. But let's not pretend it doesn't happen, alright? - even if it doesn't occur as much as people claiming "stacked!")
Everyone can bicker their point of view obviously believing they are in the "right" here, but at the end of the day, once everyone has vomited their message in text format, this topic will solve nothing and everyone will continue to search for a specific experience out of NS2. This topic just serves as a check up on "let's see how my internet argument is going".
While I obviously agree there are issues on both sides that require addressing, neither side helps the situation by essentially saying "you first." it's just a childish standoff at that point.
[...]
And that is why I plucked that sentence exclusively out of your post.. Because it sounded like you were irrationally expecting some immediate and drastic change from the other side if the fence to occur first, in order to justify you being awesome.
Beside the sentence you quoted, that could be understand that way out of context (but not with the context), where did I say "you first" ?
I did not. I said in both posts that I am already doing what I can. The rest isn't on me.
Yes, it is childish to say: "L2P so I don't have to play in a kiddie league or be held accountable for imbalanced games"
Well no I don't think so. It is realist to expect the players to learn the basics of the game. I am not asking for something impossible. I am not asking everyone to get to prem level. Just the minimum required to have a decent game. If you are not even willing to do the minimum, what credibility do you have?
You learn the rules before you play checkers or chess or football or anything. You learn the basics. It's like you are telling me it's childish to expect a new basketball player to understand that he has to use his hands to use the ball and not his feet.
(for the record, I wouldn't go around proclaiming or denying that vets empty servers.. It does happen.. Everyone's seen it.. I'm not saying you or anyone in particular does it.. But let's not pretend it doesn't happen, alright? - even if it doesn't occur as much as people claiming "stacked!")
Of course it does happen. No one is denying it. Everyone here has more or less acknowledged the fact that it happens. I'm not sure where you wanted to go there.
Sorry i didn't read everything but one thing doesn't make any sense to me.
Why should it be the good player that are part of the problem and not the rookies ?
From my window i see things this way:
Player buys the game ; install, launch and immediately browse the server list. I would say it's a FPS typical player. This guy didn't read the game infos as it was cheap to buy. So why bother with tutorial while he thinks it's another shooter (FPS) ? Everything has been made for them to be able to "instant play" (not this game specifically).
[...]
Yeah, that's a nice post and all, but we are not talking about these kind of players. (At least I am not.) The problem is not (primarily) the skill difference between complete newbies and vets, but the disparity between vets and godlike-vets.
edit: Also, agree with Ironhorse.
It's the same principle. One group has a better grip on the game than the other. At some point the second group has to learn something.
Any game can be won against these players using infiltration, killing RTs and stuff. I play on French servers (the closest) were you know who stop by regularly and also really good other players. Good fights in there, but most of all : Good harrassing on RTs (prior to killing enemy), massive Ninja stuff, and a lot more bile bomb rush than i ever seen in my NS2 life. In fact we often use whatever is in the reach (depending on map and side) to razor cut the enemy in half.
But for all i saw with no exception at all, it's not one or two players that are clearly above the rest that make the game. It's the teamwork and a little brain. Every time a sneaky tunnel/pg was up and ppl got there fast in position, it was a win (at higher level teams tends to use bile/pg rush more for obvious reasons). The other way was lost game (it happens too even with vets in the team).
And these godlike-vets as you describe them can die too with proper organization. Most of people don't realize that these guys in competitive play are more dangerous with the basic units (skulk/ground trooper). Because in competitive play they are force to do it, they are used to loose an upgrade or two.
I had the pleasure to command a team of alien in that kind of game. Granted it doesn't happen all the time, but these so called godlike were at the hive doors. 3 aliens did go gorge; one did a tunnel and you know the rest. What i want to say is 3 guys amongst 10 or more did 1 simple thing and the win was ours.
As long as the (basic?) vets don't realize this is a game of time, space and money and (/or there is a B route) the stacking problem won't stop. But not because it is a skill stack problem. The opposite is quite true. Stop bringing your cadavers to pile up. Keep it in the pants, use brain and teamwork.
Actually tutorial cannot teach that. I feel sorry about that.
Personally i use the solution of joining the team that looks the weakest not only from looking at the players in the server but i also do jump in spectate when i join a server to see how the fight is going then join the side that is having the most trouble, sure this hurts my ns2stats but to be frank i dont care much for stats I am simply trying to help the community by helping those who are getting beaten down. Offer tactical suggestions, give hints to positions when attacking/defending (LOS, cover each other, etc..). Basic teaching and trying to boost moral for the "losing team" and encourage teamwork as we all find those epic comebacks to be just that epic! there are quite a few players that do this too and to those i say fantastic please keep it up as your the heroes of the community to help it grow, the larger the player base the more servers you'll get to play on, the more skilled players there will be and that'll inevitably lead to more comp players so its win win for everyone.
All we have to do as a community is put in the time to nurture these greens/newly whites as well as some of the other players (not so skilled but been around) with helpful hints, tips and moral boosts as much as we can (im not saying spend 100% of your gaming time doing this but do put some time in). lets not argue who's fault is what or that the game is flawed, none of that really matters when you can have a community that can make up for any shortcomings of the games ability to teach (thanks @It's Super Effective! for doing the videos to help with this too!). So lets be the community that we would all like to see, to see change you must first be the change and lead by example, go forth and breed new skilled players from greenies and newly whites people! in the long run it'll help you too
The problem is not (primarily) the skill difference between complete newbies and vets, but the disparity between vets and godlike-vets.
This is the way I see it too... The totally green "rookies" are not even part of this equation in my mind because they not only tend to avoid the white servers, but they also have "rookie only" servers to play on...
The problem isn't the difference in game knowledge (ie positioning, map awareness, knowing when to do what, etc) the problem is the difference in actual skill level (ie reflexes, accuracy, eye hand coordination, etc)
Which brings me back to the elitism I was referring to earlier. The god-like vets in this thread are assuming that the vets are green rookies making clueless mistakes. - Which has sort of caused the thread to shift from "pub stomping" to "rookie stomping"
SpoogeThunderbolt missile in your cheeriosJoin Date: 2002-01-25Member: 67Members
It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that there's a difference in skills that's creating a gap. There are some players who enjoy spending their time tweaking their keybindings, mouse settings, graphics settings, and then taking the time to hone their arm/wrist/hand movements to achieve better performance and there are those who would rather take their off the shelf PC and crank up the graphics for the most pleasing visual settings that are still playable. Those different mindsets will, in most cases, be very far apart skill wise.
What I find interesting, and like all of this it's been discussed many times in the past, is that the community has tried to compensate for this skill difference, at least in one way, by allowing for higher quantities of players on a server.
We've always been told that this game is meant to be played 6v6. Yet, almost no public servers set they player limit to 12. The logic, of course, is that if you have one or two players that have skills far surpassing the rest, the impact of that difference is softened as the ratio of green/average player to expert player goes up.
What I don't understand is why there hasn't been an effort to alter the game mechanics to address this problem. Others have alluded to this earlier in the thread.
Matchmaking isn't going to solve this problem. There will always be those who are significantly better and those who are green. Why can't there be some kind of balancing device implemented in the game?
Granted, I'm not a programmer or game developer or whatever so I don't have the answer but can we at least acknowledge the issue and consider some kind of solution?
It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that there's a difference in skills that's creating a gap. There are some players who enjoy spending their time tweaking their keybindings, mouse settings, graphics settings, and then taking the time to hone their arm/wrist/hand movements to achieve better performance and there are those who would rather take their off the shelf PC and crank up the graphics for the most pleasing visual settings that are still playable. Those different mindsets will, in most cases, be very far apart skill wise.
What I find interesting, and like all of this it's been discussed many times in the past, is that the community has tried to compensate for this skill difference, at least in one way, by allowing for higher quantities of players on a server.
We've always been told that this game is meant to be played 6v6. Yet, almost no public servers set they player limit to 12. The logic, of course, is that if you have one or two players that have skills far surpassing the rest, the impact of that difference is softened as the ratio of green/average player to expert player goes up.
What I don't understand is why there hasn't been an effort to alter the game mechanics to address this problem. Others have alluded to this earlier in the thread.
Matchmaking isn't going to solve this problem. There will always be those who are significantly better and those who are green. Why can't there be some kind of balancing device implemented in the game?
Granted, I'm not a programmer or game developer or whatever so I don't have the answer but can we at least acknowledge the issue and consider some kind of solution?
actually what's been claimed is 8v8 and 6v6 is comp because getting players on is like wrangling cats.
Also we might not all be born equal and all, but none of us (div1/prem) were born with uberskills and uberIntelligence. In NS2, no one is so good that he is unreacheable. The level is not as high as it can be on quake or CS or sc2.
CS has a fairly low skill ceiling compared to NS2, IMO - due to things such as movement options on alien side and spatial/map awareness. CS does not have these quite as much.
Dunning-Kruger effect sometimes makes all this so tough.
For example, I've experienced it where I try and command (mind you, I'm not the best commander, but I think I do okay with my experience). But I can't tell you how often I regret commanding when people much less experienced start back-seat commanding like crazy or do their own thing. People feel like there's only one upgrade path leading to success, but in a pub with so much more variability and less experienced players, I think one has to adjust to the ebb and flow of the game.
Conversely, the theory also explains that more experienced players might not always realize just how much they can affect the game.
Either way, for the longevity of the game, I'm with IronHorse... we do have to try and balance games when we can. I think all anyone is asking is that if one recognizes the tides of balance are shifting in a given round due to skill disparity, maybe the next round, one can try and even it up.
Also we might not all be born equal and all, but none of us (div1/prem) were born with uberskills and uberIntelligence. In NS2, no one is so good that he is unreacheable. The level is not as high as it can be on quake or CS or sc2.
CS has a fairly low skill ceiling compared to NS2, IMO - due to things such as movement options on alien side and spatial/map awareness. CS does not have these quite as much.
I am not talking about skill ceiling. I am talking about the actual level of the best players in each game. In cs:go for example, you can realistically argue that you will never catch up with the best players, because they are so far ahead. There is just no way. But this is not the case in NS2. I am an NS2 world champion, but I know it doesn't mean much. My level is not that high. You can catch up with me.
The problem isn't the difference in game knowledge (ie positioning, map awareness, knowing when to do what, etc) the problem is the difference in actual skill level (ie reflexes, accuracy, eye hand coordination, etc)
Which brings me back to the elitism I was referring to earlier. The god-like vets in this thread are assuming that the vets are green rookies making clueless mistakes. - Which has sort of caused the thread to shift from "pub stomping" to "rookie stomping"
The thing is that this skill level can be overcome with the game knowledge. When I say people should learn the basics, I am not only talking about rookies. I don't think the overall "game knowledge" is high enough. If it was, the skill gap would be possible to overcome. As I said the best players' level in this game is not AS HIGH as some seem to think. If you come at me with 5 skulks, the first one dodging bullets, I am gonna die. My skill can only do so much. At some point I will have to reload, or one of you will reach me before I kill him. And you don't have to be that skilled to do it. Being decent is enough. I am not thinking that everyone in this game is green rookies making clueless mistakes. But the amount of people having decent skill and good knowledge of the game is lacking. I can see it eveytime I launch NS2 and join a pub server. Yet I don't think this level of play is that hard to achieve, and/or such a pain in the ass that the "I just want to have fun" argument is valide, or give you enough credibility to blame me for destroying servers/the community.
Comments
Jeez
But then I'm just a div 3 scrub, so the worst of both worlds: comp, so therefore evil in the eyes of the pubbers; and div3, so essentially a pubber to div1/prem players.
How are you only in div 3? Last time I played comp Div 3 was like, the remmies :P
Yep, we try to be "everyone friendly". From people just starting out to the seriously good players. The only people we don't want are nasty pasties who deliberately try to ruin the fun atmosphere we try to have (be it intentional stacking to ruin games, abusive behavior or cheating/exploiting, etc.). Trouble is that 'stacking' is often subjective so it's difficult to make that call as an admin.
By the way, people who play on our server can get instant help from an admin (providing we are around, we usually are) by typing !admin xxxx in the in-game chat, if you think someone is ruining the fun and we will investigate, like inspector gadget.
It's a great idea and we used to to this during our "Regs Nights" but it just takes sooo frickin long. I don't think it's suitable for everyday pub playing although I'm willing to be outvoted on that
Also, THIS is real stacking.
Actually, what I can blame is the balance of the game. Which has shifted towards favouring those who are better at tracking/jumping. This is the problem when the game is balanced for competitive play rather than balancing it as a game. Exo's are shit, jetpack and shotgun are the only versatile attack methods and Aliens can be stunted very early on if your team doesn't have an amazing lerk. The game has been streamlined so much half of the tactics built in don't actually work. Bring back the days of slow and powerful Exos, useful flamethrowers and Onos that were feared.
Damn, I'm getting all nostalgic at something that was only about a year ago. I think I might of prefered NS2 when everything had a bit more bang and the game wasn't decided in the first few battles.
I know there is a competitive mod, but has anyone thought of having an 'unbalanced but fun' mod (it could be called 'Mutated'). Might actually bring back some spirit back into the game (and would be a positive solution instead of trying to handicap the decent player base).
With a mod, it could change and evolve. Obviously the focus would be on creating epic moments, rather than having games resolved quickly. I'd rather concede on an hour long tug and war than play ten minutes on a rush. Maybe the game just needs a little more comeback mechanics.
Why should it be the good player that are part of the problem and not the rookies ?
From my window i see things this way:
Player buys the game ; install, launch and immediately browse the server list. I would say it's a FPS typical player. This guy didn't read the game infos as it was cheap to buy. So why bother with tutorial while he thinks it's another shooter (FPS) ? Everything has been made for them to be able to "instant play" (not this game specifically).
Consequences :
They just get "flashed". New players joining a server with no clue of what to do (individual) and not even a single clue about the game mechanics. On the first part this player will eventually get better at engaging the enemy after a little training but not on the other part (which is as important as the rest). I do believe it is why these players can be called "wave player". They will spawn, move forward, shoot, go forward, shoot, and then die. It's like a fluid that flows on the map. So it ends up in the "choke point" situation. Let's say you see a gorge blockade (clogs+hydras) and endless waves of marine and skulk that fight here. As I've seen it many times; not a single player from both teams will try route B to avoid the choke point and eventually flank the enemy (or do something better).
Usually they don't listen to anything the commander (or callers) say for many reasons.
-They need more direction on the each map.
-They don't have that culture on other games (run, shoot, die syndrome).
-They simply don't speak the same language.
-They don't care (yes some are like that) about the results as they are testing.
-They focus on whats moving.
Everybody complaints about stacking but what about taking care of this issue by the other way ? The main problem is misunderstanding from each class of players.
Vets:
-They play to win.
-The play for fun with a decent sense of tactics. If they want Fades and Onie they'll have to defend RTs a little isn't it.
-They don't like ppl that just play alone. Loosing because of bad teamwork is worse than a game lost but with proper teamwork. And annoying as hell i believe.
-They listen to the commander. More or less in pub but better than nothing at all.
-They do ninja stuff really useful.
-They always try the other route fast enough.
-They focus on killing RTs first then if possible the enemy. Both if "Uber godlike player is in da house".
I believe it's both type of player behavior that is the cause.
I throw ideas like that and i don't expect them to be perfect and won't debate about it. It's just thinking the other way as an example.
1 The new player needs a little training for both aspect of the game. Fight of course and a little discipline.
A-The tutorial in the game is providing knowledge of the basic things. Why not using it to disable the server browser until the tutorial is completed. Yes the voice sound isn't perfect and yes it isn't a "thrilling episode" in a gamers life but is teaches the right basic things you have to know. In fact i vote for more development on this area. Up to jet pack guys!
Yes it's a lock. It forces ppl to do something before playing for real. Well if it produce better results than getting stomped whatever a stack is here or not. why not ?
B-Why not using a basic setup tutorial and throw at him/her some challenges.
Maps are already here. Bots can be activated on demand (like in tutorial). It's a set up not far from "playing with bot". That should do for the basic engagements. After 20 minutes of this, the player will know that trying to run won't unlock the ambush situation.
Challenges like:
-Go there (selecting one route only), it's a hive/base. On the road he'll meet some enemies. If he take the other route... bad news, big thing over here.
-"stay put with the ARCs"... and such.
Many situations that require a simple objective, and in which throwing enemies at him is normal, can be proposed.
-Go there... no go there... (arh arh)
If this player can understand the basic concepts (and finish the interactive tutorial) before joining a server in less than an hour, i tell you my friend it's an hour that worth 30 hours at least.
2 He needs to understand what are asking the commander and/or other players
Even with basic training this new player needs a little more than that. He doesn't know all the maps, and maybe he will be overwhelmed by the things happening in the game. The pace isn't the same. Plus if this new player have a rather bad understanding of English (for example), it's gonna be a mess. I wouldn't count to much on education these days. Gamers are young too.
A-Why not having a little more messages for communication. We have plenty but not all of them are used. It goes from requests to the commander to voice taunt and such. I never hear the "enemy nearby" though it exists (if i remember correctly). What about replacing this unused messages by actual request from teammates to teammates ? The ping is not enough for rookies.
Like "Help requested here". Or specifying a target. All rookies with a low hour count will have (by default) a WP and path (bright yellow this time) to designated targets by other field players. It won't explain the "why" the at least the "what to do". It will save many hours for teachers too. I mean teachers would have the tools to give instruction (not orders) to others.
Let's say it's the first little flights out of the nest for rookies. It won't be the greatest experiences as it can be killing Rts but at least it would be more successful than not flying at all (egg lock in hive).
Then when the wings are grown they can do some more stuff.
Reach to the root causes guys.
No high level players can stomp there cause it runs with following limits:
- max ns2stats ELO of 1600
- 50 hrs max playtime
Name: Heidis baby lamb Land [HBZ]
Why im doing this?
Cause servers like "Rookies paradise" are more "rookies nightmare"
Rookies get stomped there nonstop.
Did someone remember the rookie fun tourney at the LAN in sweden? (im sure it was in sweden
They can learn the basics by themself and there is no need for advice of experienced players.
Conversely, if the rookie doesn't bother learning, it's not going to empty a server and it's not going to make you - a veteran of the game - leave NS2.
Do you see how this is linear and only goes in one direction?
You know what though.. Both sides of this argument are beginning to make me sick with their so called reasons for a lack of effort.
Both sides want player retention, right? Both sides want more friends to play with and more places to play, right?
Then both sides need to stop blaming, stop whining, stop pretending your way is better, start realizing the delicate and finite nature of player counts and how you impact this by being accountable and mature, and maybe.. just maybe.. everybody might get along, learn a thing or two, and have fun at the same time.
Crazy notion, I know.
We have a winner, could not have been better put.
Yeah, that's a nice post and all, but we are not talking about these kind of players. (At least I am not.) The problem is not (primarily) the skill difference between complete newbies and vets, but the disparity between vets and godlike-vets.
edit: Also, agree with Ironhorse.
Prem/Div1 Comp players are getting the beef because they "stack"
However, the best way to get better is to play people better than yourself/team.
The outcome of the game is not always dependent on 1 or 2 players (regardless of their skill, NS2 is more about teamwork)
Pub players should learn to not solo skulk marines and go in packs and harass res/base/whatever. You have to learn how to talk to your teammates. Hence why people like to play with friends.
Please Reread my post. Or any div1/prem player's post in this thread. We are not going around emptying rookie servers. It's like talking to a wall. We avoid the rookie servers because this is not what we are looking for.
And if I am not allowed to join any server, to prevent the poor little defenseless rookies who don't want to learn sh*t from leaving the game, I might not leave NS2, but I am effectivly not playing it. Not much difference there.
Do you see how this is not linear and actually goes in both directions?
I am already doing what I can. I am suggesting exactly what you are suggesting. Basically everyone has to do its part.
But then when people suck and get dominated ingame and don't do a thing to arrange the situation I am the one being shat on. I am one of the player who like the game enough to dedicate time and effort to become good at it, take it seriously, arguably one of the player who like it the most, who wants it to be successful the most. But there you are on the forum telling me I am the plague and I should not even think about joining a game because I am too good and I am gonna kill the community, because I am scaring away those so much more valuable to the game than me rookies who won't even bother learning it, and therefore are gonna get tired of it soon enough anyway ?
Does that kind of logic make sense ? Doesn't it seem backward to you ? Does me expecting people playing this game to learn its basics makes me an arrogant, selfish, elitist assh*le ? Does that cost me the right to simply PLAY THE GAME I LIKE ??? "Sorry king_yo, you're overqualified, I don't want my baddies to leave the game, so f*ck off please !"
I know you are the kind of guy who cares about this game and community enough to actually take the time to help people on the forum and all, wich shows you are dedicated. I am really surprised by your post. I would have expected you to understand my point of view, and understand that we div1/prem players realise that being a rookie facing us isn't a fun position to be in, and we are not seeking that. It is not fun for us either. But we do not come down to the forum creating threads about how much everyone sucks, whining, blaming others. If my arguments are making you sick, well I am sorry, but put yourself in my shoes. I feel wrongly attacked and I am responding with what I feel is a reasonable and not out of reality answer.
It feels like you quoted 1 line from my post and never read the rest.
Well no.
There needs to be places to play for both ends of the spectrum that aren't being infringed upon.
Some community servers attempt to do that - but it's something that UWE for the most part hasn't addressed since day 1.
The rookie friendly idea and implementation imo is almost a joke.
It's like a sign that says "come here to rape rookies!".
There's nothing stopping the people that are elo whoring - and doesn't really stop rookies from stumbling into veteran servers and getting rolled whilst having a bad experience.
The community was essentially promised an organized play system and that never happened. All we have left is mods that somewhat resolve the issue. [No Rookies] and other things through the Shine admin system.
So I will describe a scenario I see often enough on my servers that I've started writing a mod to try and counter it.
I'm not saying that this is exactly the way things are just that this is my perception of it, just so that I don't offend anyone.
I would say my server typically has a fairly reasonable distribution of player skills on it. Most often we get quite good games. (we typically have 5-6 admins on at a time too).
1. We get a few league players Div2 - Div3 mostly. I think they tend to tone it down though and be playing games to relax when on my servers.
2. We get mostly players like myself that just mostly pub. My close friends group ranges from having 500-1000 hours in the game. We know how to do all the right things quite well, but don't have amazing aiming skills or anything like that.
3. We get a few genuinely green rookies. Some that listen, some that don't. Loads more when a sale is on (which incidentally causes very similar problems, but that is offset by how good it is to get new people involved).
Everyone tends to have a good time, nobody tends to be unstoppable, some people clearly pull away from everyone else in K:D ratio but nobody seems to mind much.
Then a very highly skilled player drops by, and rightly so because at this point the server is probably indicating quite a high skill in the server browser so I don't blame them at all.
After a few minutes everyone starts to feel a very different way. Suddenly there is a very real and noticeable perception that there is 'that person' who doesn't seem to miss a shot, and doesn't seem to make a mistake. They can pin down an entire half of the map by themselves by blocking an exit out of the hive. Team morale hits the deck. Its not like when you normally go up against someone better than yourself, who might beat you 5 times for every 1 time you can take them down. It just feels absolutely hopeless. The marines on the other side might be having a good time at this point, or maybe not, some just like to win, others don't feel like their contribution even matters.
It is at this point people start complaining to me on steam friends, and want me to do something about it. I look at the situation, I see a large number of my players having a really bad experience. I can see its because of the obvious expansion of the skill disparity which happened when the pro player joined. I explore my options to restore the skill range skills to something sensible;
1. I could kick the pro player from the server. This seems crazy though, they haven't done anything wrong! They have clearly invested a significant amount of time into the game and/or have a great natural talent for it which really should be celebrated!
2. I could kick roughly the bottom 75% of the players from the server, the lower division players could probably give this person a good run. This feels bad because they haven't done anything wrong either, and they represent the majority which i'm not sure if it should matters but seems to hold some weight with me.
3. I could do nothing at all. I get to avoid a hard decision, and people do have an option which they invariably take. They leave. When the server drops down to 3 or 4 people left it then dies.
I always take option 3, but I hate seeing the server die. I just want to find a way so that games don't feel quite this bad when the skill range is absolutely enormous.
I feel like a pro player could write a description of how that same game would feel from their perspective. I really want to understand what it feels like to be on the other side of this. To be that person that is despised for doing nothing wrong. I also want to know what they would suggest to me, not as a player, but as a server admin about what they think I should do when this happens.
* below 100 ms
* nothing above 20 slots, 18 or lower prefered.
* Ns2 or ns2+ or Compmod.
* Not empty / near empty for eons. (yes I do seed if I have time)
* Not full nonstop (yes I queue if time allows)
The choices of available servers drop to like... 3. All rookie friendly. I doubt I am alone in this situation.
In these runs I see plenty of players:
* below my skill
* some on my skill
* some above my skill.
What usually happens is that pretty much every player with a minimum level of brains attempts to help the rookies by comming, advice, training a 'weaker' weapon or lifeform etc.
Rookies will still get killed.
By the time they FINALLY listen and realise that perhaps it IS a good idea to 'stay in groups' and 'get of the floor' we are usually loads of rookie deaths further.
(Not to mention me getting slaughtered by anyone on same or better skill ahem
While I fully support not driving away rookies, helping rookies and going easy on the greens, it is so that even while doing that they will die.. A lot. And them not listening, not doing any tutorials does add to this problem.
Ive seen the 'quality' of rookies steadily decline every rookie wave for a few patches now, and I seriously wonder why that is.
While I obviously agree there are issues on both sides that require addressing, neither side helps the situation by essentially saying "you first." it's just a childish standoff at that point.
Yes, it is childish to say: "L2P so I don't have to play in a kiddie league or be held accountable for imbalanced games", like you said.. just as much as it is to say "you've killed the community! Go somewhere else, you're all the same!" or worse, scream bloody murder every time there is the slightest imbalance.. Instead of taking it as a challenge to improve oneself.
If you get that point, then you'll realize our posts have quite a bit in common. ;-)
The notable difference between my post and yours is that I'm suggesting both sides not use an excuse to justify an action. Just be an awesome community member, always.
And that is why I plucked that sentence exclusively out of your post.. Because it sounded like you were irrationally expecting some immediate and drastic change from the other side if the fence to occur first, in order to justify you being awesome.
(for the record, I wouldn't go around proclaiming or denying that vets empty servers.. It does happen.. Everyone's seen it.. I'm not saying you or anyone in particular does it.. But let's not pretend it doesn't happen, alright? - even if it doesn't occur as much as people claiming "stacked!")
Everyone can bicker their point of view obviously believing they are in the "right" here, but at the end of the day, once everyone has vomited their message in text format, this topic will solve nothing and everyone will continue to search for a specific experience out of NS2. This topic just serves as a check up on "let's see how my internet argument is going".
When did I or any div1/prem used an excuse to justify what ? That part I don't get what you are referencing to.
Beside the sentence you quoted, that could be understand that way out of context (but not with the context), where did I say "you first" ?
I did not. I said in both posts that I am already doing what I can. The rest isn't on me.
Well no I don't think so. It is realist to expect the players to learn the basics of the game. I am not asking for something impossible. I am not asking everyone to get to prem level. Just the minimum required to have a decent game. If you are not even willing to do the minimum, what credibility do you have?
You learn the rules before you play checkers or chess or football or anything. You learn the basics. It's like you are telling me it's childish to expect a new basketball player to understand that he has to use his hands to use the ball and not his feet.
What?
I'm sorry but again I feel like you didn't read my posts.
Of course it does happen. No one is denying it. Everyone here has more or less acknowledged the fact that it happens. I'm not sure where you wanted to go there.
It's the same principle. One group has a better grip on the game than the other. At some point the second group has to learn something.
Any game can be won against these players using infiltration, killing RTs and stuff. I play on French servers (the closest) were you know who stop by regularly and also really good other players. Good fights in there, but most of all : Good harrassing on RTs (prior to killing enemy), massive Ninja stuff, and a lot more bile bomb rush than i ever seen in my NS2 life. In fact we often use whatever is in the reach (depending on map and side) to razor cut the enemy in half.
But for all i saw with no exception at all, it's not one or two players that are clearly above the rest that make the game. It's the teamwork and a little brain. Every time a sneaky tunnel/pg was up and ppl got there fast in position, it was a win (at higher level teams tends to use bile/pg rush more for obvious reasons). The other way was lost game (it happens too even with vets in the team).
And these godlike-vets as you describe them can die too with proper organization. Most of people don't realize that these guys in competitive play are more dangerous with the basic units (skulk/ground trooper). Because in competitive play they are force to do it, they are used to loose an upgrade or two.
I had the pleasure to command a team of alien in that kind of game. Granted it doesn't happen all the time, but these so called godlike were at the hive doors. 3 aliens did go gorge; one did a tunnel and you know the rest. What i want to say is 3 guys amongst 10 or more did 1 simple thing and the win was ours.
As long as the (basic?) vets don't realize this is a game of time, space and money and (/or there is a B route) the stacking problem won't stop. But not because it is a skill stack problem. The opposite is quite true. Stop bringing your cadavers to pile up. Keep it in the pants, use brain and teamwork.
Actually tutorial cannot teach that. I feel sorry about that.
All we have to do as a community is put in the time to nurture these greens/newly whites as well as some of the other players (not so skilled but been around) with helpful hints, tips and moral boosts as much as we can (im not saying spend 100% of your gaming time doing this but do put some time in). lets not argue who's fault is what or that the game is flawed, none of that really matters when you can have a community that can make up for any shortcomings of the games ability to teach (thanks @It's Super Effective! for doing the videos to help with this too!). So lets be the community that we would all like to see, to see change you must first be the change and lead by example, go forth and breed new skilled players from greenies and newly whites people! in the long run it'll help you too
This is the way I see it too... The totally green "rookies" are not even part of this equation in my mind because they not only tend to avoid the white servers, but they also have "rookie only" servers to play on...
The problem isn't the difference in game knowledge (ie positioning, map awareness, knowing when to do what, etc) the problem is the difference in actual skill level (ie reflexes, accuracy, eye hand coordination, etc)
Which brings me back to the elitism I was referring to earlier. The god-like vets in this thread are assuming that the vets are green rookies making clueless mistakes. - Which has sort of caused the thread to shift from "pub stomping" to "rookie stomping"
What I find interesting, and like all of this it's been discussed many times in the past, is that the community has tried to compensate for this skill difference, at least in one way, by allowing for higher quantities of players on a server.
We've always been told that this game is meant to be played 6v6. Yet, almost no public servers set they player limit to 12. The logic, of course, is that if you have one or two players that have skills far surpassing the rest, the impact of that difference is softened as the ratio of green/average player to expert player goes up.
What I don't understand is why there hasn't been an effort to alter the game mechanics to address this problem. Others have alluded to this earlier in the thread.
Matchmaking isn't going to solve this problem. There will always be those who are significantly better and those who are green. Why can't there be some kind of balancing device implemented in the game?
Granted, I'm not a programmer or game developer or whatever so I don't have the answer but can we at least acknowledge the issue and consider some kind of solution?
actually what's been claimed is 8v8 and 6v6 is comp because getting players on is like wrangling cats.
CS has a fairly low skill ceiling compared to NS2, IMO - due to things such as movement options on alien side and spatial/map awareness. CS does not have these quite as much.
Eh, all skill-levels can be jerks.
For example, I've experienced it where I try and command (mind you, I'm not the best commander, but I think I do okay with my experience). But I can't tell you how often I regret commanding when people much less experienced start back-seat commanding like crazy or do their own thing. People feel like there's only one upgrade path leading to success, but in a pub with so much more variability and less experienced players, I think one has to adjust to the ebb and flow of the game.
Conversely, the theory also explains that more experienced players might not always realize just how much they can affect the game.
Either way, for the longevity of the game, I'm with IronHorse... we do have to try and balance games when we can.
I am not talking about skill ceiling. I am talking about the actual level of the best players in each game. In cs:go for example, you can realistically argue that you will never catch up with the best players, because they are so far ahead. There is just no way. But this is not the case in NS2. I am an NS2 world champion, but I know it doesn't mean much. My level is not that high. You can catch up with me.
The thing is that this skill level can be overcome with the game knowledge. When I say people should learn the basics, I am not only talking about rookies. I don't think the overall "game knowledge" is high enough. If it was, the skill gap would be possible to overcome. As I said the best players' level in this game is not AS HIGH as some seem to think. If you come at me with 5 skulks, the first one dodging bullets, I am gonna die. My skill can only do so much. At some point I will have to reload, or one of you will reach me before I kill him. And you don't have to be that skilled to do it. Being decent is enough. I am not thinking that everyone in this game is green rookies making clueless mistakes. But the amount of people having decent skill and good knowledge of the game is lacking. I can see it eveytime I launch NS2 and join a pub server. Yet I don't think this level of play is that hard to achieve, and/or such a pain in the ass that the "I just want to have fun" argument is valide, or give you enough credibility to blame me for destroying servers/the community.