If you were going to remove powernodes an infestations from their current roles they should be a separate tech path. I think this is how those techpaths would look.
Only allow meds, ammo, catpacks, and nanosheild in rooms with power. That would make power incredibly important, but not necessary. Power HP would need to be higher. Powernode build times would need to be very low. If power is out, it is just black with no emergency lights.
Cysting would give the alien khamm bonesheild, rupture, nutrient mist, enzyme, mucous membrane, and hallucinations. This would make cysting very strong if you could just lay down and enzyme cloud in any engagement on infestation. You could still use enzyme, mucous membrane, and hallucinations with drifters for off infestation support. Cysts would need a lot more health, and increased build time.
Map control would not just be how far you can build an rt. Controlling a room would be very important too because it makes you that much stronger. Powernodes and cysting would be a techpath that gives the commander more control of the situation. Cysting vs power would show map control very distinctly.
It would also be nice if rooms started out with lights off except for marine start in this hypothetical change. If you were going to have the lights start as off, and rooms would be dark aliens should have bioluminescence as shown in the following picture. This is code complete. Little or no additional work needed.
I really like the lighting-ideas discussed so far: infestation spreading onto lightsources, making them flicker/reduce, unpowered rooms have lower to no light. I think it will give a big plus to the games atmosphere. The atmosphere in the Faded-Mod is freaking awesome and its darkness plays a big role to that.
Will new lighting help new players understand the game, though? Maybe. Entering a very dark room makes it blatantly obvious, that you are entering the "danger-zone", speak territory in which you live in more danger (as the com can not med you for example). With the bioluminescence: it might happen that rookies do not shoot the alien-structures as they are the only lightsource in the room?
Some are concerned that marine-pushes are not viable without meds/ammo. I guess marines just have to change their gameplay here: build power-node quick and early when you push. Or push without meds/ammo (or go back into a powered room to get them). However one could also implement some mechanic to reduce the effect. Like power-surging a room if you want to push - just to enable the med-ammo-drops for 10 seconds? It could be done automatically the first time you drop a med/ammo there. Or similarly increase the TRes on unpowered ground to 2 for ammo/meds. The later is harder to recognise for a rookie com that there is a change at all between powered/unpowered rooms. The former is easier to recognise, but more complex.
Anyways, I would love to see some changes to the lighting, that screenshot for example looks very promising.
I have many things to says here but I don't have time right now so I'll just suggest the following.
If you want to know what bothers a noob then just ask a noob !
What UWE can do TODAY :
-Grab some random people in the street
-Ask them if they want to participate to a fun and exciting experiment. In exchange for their cooperation offer them coffee, chocolate, money, sex with Hugh, whatever...
-Put them ALONE in front of a computer with a fresh copy of NS2 installed
-Do not say or explain anything. Just ask them to play.
- Film the screen and the player. Possibly ask the player to say out loud what he/she is thinking when playing.
-Debrief. Ask what they liked, disliked, what they did not understand, etc.
After the player left, watch the videos again.
What the noob did IS the RIGHT thing to do. If what the noob did was inefficient then CHANGE THE GAME accordingly. What a noob does should be efficient (or at least somewhat efficient)
For instance, if the noob runs in a straight line as a skulk and gets raped then change the game so that running in a straight line does not get you raped anymore. I am not saying that running in a straight line as a skulk should make you OP but as least you should not get killed so easily.
teaching rookies how to do the current skulk walljump is easy. Yes the jump is not intuitive but they pick it up fast.
True bunnyhop like in ns1 took far longer to learn and was far more unintuitive.
Please never ever make a speed gain like bunnyhop ever again. It was born from a exploit and it was far less intuitive then walljump.
I mean only strafing and jumping to move forward, really? Intuitive?
Bunnyhop in it's ns1 form is fine for intermediate to master level play, we have walljumping for the casual players and rookies but having something with a little more depth besides mashing jump alongside a wall's edge would be good to keep players around who want to 'go to the next level'.
Goldsrc movement was just more satisfying overall.
A couple random ideas that came to mind for "simplifying" the game a little more:
1) Get rid of Ammo packs. Just combine ammo with med packs. It's less work for both the Commander and Field players.
2) Increase the pick up radius for meds but lower the rate at which the commander can drop them. Should lead to higher med accuracy & efficiency.
3) Change Phase Gate structure into some more of a platform design (similar to an IP) instead of a "door way" so Aliens can't as easily grind gates.
4) Buy menus. This has been discussed for ages, and as far as I know there are technical problems associated with key binding overlapping or something of that nature. If someone could figure out a way around it, buy menus would be much more intuitive and fluid than what we have now.
5) Make cysts useful but not necessary. Turtsmcgurts mentioned several things you could do that make cysts useful but not mandatory such as tying structure abilities (healwave/ink/echo) to being on infestation. Another thing for instance, if you drop a new structure on infestation, the structure will start at like 20% built/hp, but if you drop it off infestation it will start at 5% grown/hp. Harvestors/Gorge Tunnels/Hives would be the only structures that grow their own infestation independently of cysts. This way infestation is incentivized but not necessary. Additionally, you could make it so structures can only gain armor if they are on infestation.
I'm not sold on getting rid of power nodes. I think it makes sense to have rooms be darkened when the powernodes aren't built (like at the start of a round), but making that the only purpose of powernodes could be game-breaking. No more rushing Marine base power, ninja phasegates directly to Alien hive, too easy to relocate or build emergency observatory -- the list goes on.
Thoughts on meta gameplay: Get new players interested in community (e.g. gathers and competetive play aka ENSL) by more information on menu page and elsewhere. Or get the gather stuff to work in-game. Get a few (more) servers where highest skilled players can't enter. Just for starters.
A couple random ideas that came to mind for "simplifying" the game a little more:
1) Get rid of Ammo packs. Just combine ammo with med packs. It's less work for both the Commander and Field players.
I don't like this idea. First and foremost, I don't believe for a second that anybody is confused or think the game is too complicated because there's separate buttons for ammo and health.. The two are separate entities.
Moreover, I believe you will have an unpredictable impact on the economy of the game with a change like this.
2) Increase the pick up radius for meds but lower the rate at which you can pick them up. Should lead to higher med accuracy & efficiency.
Again, there's the issue of economy, however I'm not completely disliking this suggestion, because this does seem to raise the skill floor a little bit, to the benefit of the rookie. So I like this change, but the impact on the economy should be explored.
I don't like this idea. First and foremost, I don't believe for a second that anybody is confused or think the game is too complicated because there's separate buttons for ammo and health.. The two are separate entities.
Moreover, I believe you will have an unpredictable impact on the economy of the game with a change like this.
I remember being a little overwhelmed when I first started playing with having 3 separate binds to get commanders attention (health/ammo/order) all of which are spread out over the default bindings of my keyboard (Q, Z, and H). And I don't think it will have that significant of an impact on the economy of the game. I've seen games where 250 meds are dropped and only like 30 ammo packs. The medpack/ammo ratio is usually within the vicinity of 10:1.
Simplifying the game might be nice for rookies but for players like me, who just love the complexity and the challenge provided by the hard learning curve, it would kill the gameplay expirience.
Consider this instead:
On first gamestart have a notification: This game can be confusing and hard for new players as it is rather complex and has some not that intuitve gameplay mechanics. We suggest you play the basic tutorials before joining on a server. Would you like to do so now?
When openeing the server browser the first time have a notification: Servers marked green are recommended for new players to start with, keep that in mind when joining a Server.
Having the possibility for server owners to mark their server as "teaching" which also give a hint to new players that there might be people around on this server who could help them lern the game
Vanilla possibility to elolock servers so that players above or below a certain elo/playtime/skilllevel can't play there (I know Hive is shit but as far as I know you guys are working on a new system anyways)
Vanilla possibility to prevent rookies from commanding without having played the commanding tutorials or a certain playtime (might mark players who have played the tutorial with a tutorial command batch which gets upgraded to the normal commander batch when actually commanding rounds)
Have the tutorials split up into basic and advanced sections
Basic should cover:
What is the comm chair/hive
What is the role of the commander
What are Resources, teamwise aswell as playerwise
How to gain them
What structures are there and what is their purpose
More Advanced tutorials on:
How to walljump
How to duckjump
Advantage of sneaking
How to ambush
Corner checking
The Welder and how to help your teammates by welding them
Lifeforms and advanced weaponary:
The shotgun
The GL
The flamethrower
Exosuits
Jetpacks
Spread the love aka gorging
The lerk and its objective in the different gamestages
The fade and its objective in the different gamestages
The onos and its objective in the different gamestages
Advanced Marine commanding (phasetech and how to place phasegates, ARCs, Advanced tech like exosuits and jetpacks)
Basic Alien commanding (cysting, dropping structures, upgrading the Hive)
Advanced Alien commanding (drifter support, using myst, bonewalls, the second/third Hive, lifeformupgrades)
I am sure if you ask the community they will happily volunteer helping you out with planing and creating these, just give some ingame badges
No matter what just please dont make this another gerneric fragging shooter because that would kill the game for me and I think there are many players who feel the same. Don't simplify the game, but simplify the learning by providing a helping hand to new players.
What I have seen time and time again is after a round of NS2, we are all back in the ready room and no one wants to go commander so the team sits in the ready room for far too long and the player drop-off starts to happen. I can't express how often this happens and how bad it is for player retention for this game as a whole. It's insane.
I've been playing NS since 2002 and I've gotten to the point where, when there is so much down-time in between rounds, I simply leave the game for other games with no down-time in between rounds. This is a serious issue to the success of this game.
So, the inevitable question needs to be asked: Why do most players not want to go commander? Answers I could give are:
- Probably the biggest one: Most players simply don't want to play the RTS part of NS2 and just want to play FPS.
- Too much responsibility/too stressful
- Target for blame if the team doesn't do well
- Too much to do/too confusing.
- It's boring.
Suggestions:
I would love to see the alien team scrap the commander: do what was done with NS1 and have the gorges build structures and do commander roles. For marines, why not go the same way as the NS1 alien team except players can choose to be a Soldier or an Engineer and the Engineers would do commander duties and as a trade-off, would get access to less powerful/different weapons.
But marine commander can only drop medpacks and ammo on powered rooms? Just no.
If you are going to make power nodes a separate tech path I think you need to make it a strong tech path. If it was just catpacks and nanosheild I would never build power. Catpacks and nanosheild go unused in the majority of games, and so would powernodes.
This could also easily be balanced. Marines already pretty much build the power in most rooms on the map. If medpacks were tied to power, you can bet every powernode will get built if marines can hold the room. I also am thinking build times would have to be really quick. 3 seconds to get the power up with a welder, 5 seconds without. That is quick. I would also double the amount of time it takes for aliens to kill the power. I don't know the current value, but just double it. Aliens would then have to dedicate serious time to killing it, while marines could just put it right back up. 3 marines with a welder would put it up in 1 second. It would not be that hard.
The biggest way this would effect gameplay would be making it very hard for either team to stay in enemy territory for long.
Will new lighting help new players understand the game, though? Maybe. Entering a very dark room makes it blatantly obvious, that you are entering the "danger-zone", speak territory in which you live in more danger (as the com can not med you for example). With the bioluminescence: it might happen that rookies do not shoot the alien-structures as they are the only lightsource in the room?
Some are concerned that marine-pushes are not viable without meds/ammo. I guess marines just have to change their gameplay here: build power-node quick and early when you push. Or push without meds/ammo (or go back into a powered room to get them). However one could also implement some mechanic to reduce the effect. Like power-surging a room if you want to push - just to enable the med-ammo-drops for 10 seconds? It could be done automatically the first time you drop a med/ammo there. Or similarly increase the TRes on unpowered ground to 2 for ammo/meds. The later is harder to recognize for a rookie com that there is a change at all between powered/unpowered rooms. The former is easier to recognise, but more complex.
Anyways, I would love to see some changes to the lighting, that screenshot for example looks very promising.
I like your thoughts and how the complement mine. It would certainly shake up the marine meta game. Anytime I enter a room, if I have the chance I will build the power just because I could possibly get meds. If I don't get meds, an alien might commit a lot of time to killing that power. I don't think alien-structures being the only lightsource would be a problem for veterans because I would build the power before I started killing the harvester. If the power only took 3 seconds to build with a welder why not just build it?
I also like your idea to power surge a room. I could see this being a 2 chair ability for the commander. With 2 chairs a commander could use a power surge in a hive push. This would give more reason to having 2 chairs, but also not make 2 chairs necessary. Power surge would last 10-15 seconds? The value is up for debate.
1) Get rid of Ammo packs. Just combine ammo with med packs. It's less work for both the Commander and Field players.
2) Increase the pick up radius for meds but lower the rate at which the commander can drop them. Should lead to higher med accuracy & efficiency.
I like 1 and 2 as the complement making power nodes a separate tech path. They would help make power nodes as a strong tech path to pursue. With all the ideas I have suggested I have been thinking medpacks might need a buff but I could not immediately thing of one. A cost reduction would not work well. Your 1 and 2 ideas would be decent buffs while also making the game just slightly more rookie friendly.
If you are going to make power nodes a separate tech path I think you need to make it a strong tech path. There are other ideas that are good in this thread that do not make powernodes and infestation a separate tech path. They are tying power to rt's, and infestation comes from structures.
like I said.. touch the powernode mechanic and the game will break. the amount of balancing required to get it running again would be tremendous. It'll throw us back into alpha 3 years post release.
At this point you're going to have a very hard time bringing NS2 back, and a lot of changes suggested in this thread would only further kill the game. This game has already been sold for $1, and millions of people have already formed their opinions on this game. It's too hard, too fast, too complicated, too confusing, not well optimized, and buggy- this is what people think of this game and you will never change their mind. First impressions are hard to break, this is what happens when you release unfinished games. That said, I don't think it's necessary to make so many dramatic changes, you just need better in-game guidance.
New players don't want to watch a tutorial video, or play a tutorial, or do any research on the game, so don't make them, put all that information right in front of them, in easy to understand language, as they're playing at the right moments. When they evolve to a Lifeform, pop-ups tell you how to play that lifeform, what that lifeform's role is, and gives some basic tips on how to be effective as that lifeform. Perhaps even a pop-up advising rookies when to "get out". When rookies wander off alone as marine, pop-ups tell them that their chances are much better in a group, and so on. Not just "Press E to Build Structure at Waypoint!", causing new players to get immediately yelled at for finishing the power when they should have left it primed (again, pop-ups can inform new players of this mechanic and suggest the do not finish building the power until other structures are finished). Have the pro players help you with this, there is a LOT of meta-game in this game, and that's part of what makes this game great, but it needs to be explained in a way that makes the game easy to learn (and yet, of course, hard to master).
In my view, the only way to "bring back" NS2 is to re-release it (as "NS3" or whatever), with competitive and casual matchmaking (which requires a better way of ranking player skill), and a much more intuitive tutorial which guides new players as they play. And preferably with an engine that isn't a buggy piece of shit.
As for feedback on OP's Google doc "NS2 Simplification Ideas": I think the sound cues are the only good idea. The lerk gas changes suggested are in CompMod (which I use on my server) and would be fine if implemented into vanilla, but the other ideas if implemented would probably make me move on to a different game.
When the alien commander evolves his first hive he is locked into a particular evolution tech tree. a shade hive would allow the alien commander to unlock 1 of 4 evolutions for his team.
As new hives are built a new evolution can be selected to be built. Essentially each hive built is a shade hive that allows you to progress further up the shade hive tech tree. It works the same for each of the 3 hive types, Crag Shift and Shade. Being able to mix diffierent hives could also be a possibilty that would allow the kham to select 1 evolution from each built hives tech tree, 3 shade hives build 3 shade hive evolutions, 1 shade 1 crag 1 shift would build 1 of each etc..
Shade aura (with obs invisiblity when moving slowly/ stationary) phantom (works like now but with improved invisiblity) Corrosion works like acidic vengeance from ns2 combat. Hunger works exactly like hunger from ns2 combat with the exception of healing more health based upon biomass level.
Crag Carapace same as current. Regeneration same as current Focus increases damage and healing by 10%
????
Shift Adrenaline works the same as current celerity works the same as current. frenzy increases the bite speed by 20% shadow allows the alien to shadow step at the cost of energy, the more biomass the cheaper it becomes.
Make early game lifeforms tougher. Skulks and Marines. Lets see if that makes the engagements longer and lessen the spawn-die-spawn-die cycle early players and newly players get into.
I like the idea of light indicating safe and hazardous zones, but the screenshot is entirely too dark- unfair advantage to the aliens. Maybe slightly darker, and some green tinge to any room that has some infestation inside it.
Love the idea of removing crop dusting. Love combining medpack and ammo and increasing cost and refresh time, and only being able to drop them in rooms that have power. Further to this, I could stand to change catpack to player only and nanoshield to structure only. As they sit, it's not clear that nanoshield can work for both structure and players. With regards to keeping players alive via drops, the commander SHOULD have to consider the resource cost of each drop and whether it's worth it, and the game should NOT reward lone wolf hive-harassment gameplay. This is especially frustrating for new players who wonder why they can't spawn when there's just one lone marine in their spawn point, and usually happens early in the game at that.
Speaking of which, one of the true frustrations for low-skill players regardless of play time is how easy it is to die to a sharpshooter marine. It is common to see players with a 30:1 K:D ratio. No matter which side that player joins, that side will win; the sharpshooter marine becomes a pawn that the commander moves around the map, quelling all of the alien's attempts to advance. I don't mind this being the case in the late-game when railguns come out, but when both sides have no upgrades and a lone marine can win over a group of 3 ambushing skulks, the gameplay is flawed. Any method of fixing this broken mechanic should be #1 on the priority list.
Now I know not everything will simplify the game, but there are things in there that could be potential solutions to issues that are coming up in the document at the moment... or potentially something that will make one or more of you get inspiration from.
I'm 100% behind the removal of cysts and powernodes... not only will it simplify gameplay, but it will also minimalize the amount of infestation being produced, which if I recall correctly was one of the FPS issue causers (not sure if that is still the case, i'm going back a long way)
The medpack issue is something i've brought up a few times... in my opinion there are a few solutions to this.
1. make the AoE of the medpack larger to make landing medpacks easier (not good imo)
2. make medpacks a heal over time and none stackable (also not great imo.)
3. Alter the commander UI so he can see his marines (like spectators can see both teams). make these hud marines a "drop zone" allowing the commander to drop medpacks onto the hud plate... this would also make medding multiple engagements easier too. (my personal favorite)
As for the people saying that commanding is boring/alien commander needs to go etc... NO!... just absolutely NO!!!... I play this game BECAUSE of the command chair/hive... and I prefer alien commanding to marine commanding... I believe more can be added to commanding to add more depth to it... I don't believe that people don't want to command because its boring, people don't want to command because you get blamed for losses that aren't your fault (bad medpacking, wrong tech path, jumping out of the chair instead of beaconing or dropping a second CC etc etc etc).
Why are you trying to make the game so incredibly handholding?
Cause that is 90% of the players of gaming land.
I'm all for fixing the hidden game mechanics of NS2, because when it comes down to the game is pure chaos in terms of what you need to know in order to stand a chance as a newbie even against average players. Too many clunky design decisions, to many unnecessarily complex things. Coming up with ideas to streamline those issues will maken NS2 classic better. But we do have to face reality here as well, NS2 is NEVER going to appeal to the masses or casual players. This is and will always be a Hardcore Quake/UT derelict of a game.
Please fix the hidden game mechanics, but DO NOT add these simple modes to NS2 classic, you will kill off the NS2 classic playerbase with that.
If we really want the NS2 universe to expand in playerbase (casuals), we need to work on new game modes that are easy to jump into and just kinda zergrush without much consequences. Fun factor is different for hardcore oldschool vets vs the new gaming crowd, they want those one man army type of games that are a helluva lot slower paced than NS2 can ever be (without destroying the game)...
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@IeptBarakat So to make the game more easy we are adding a even less intuitive movement then wallhop?
Yes I know old ns1 hop movement, I did it myself. I always hated it though. Used it to not fall behind, but its not rookie friendly at all.
Although I will admit I never could do it with ease either because I had a issue with following a sequence like that nonstop.. but I digress..
Im all for depth but adding bunnyhop is not the way to do it.
Why are you trying to make the game so incredibly handholding?
Cause that is 90% of the players of gaming land.
Then create something to teach those players how to play the damn game instead of making it handholding in all of it's "stages". You shouldn't be considered a good player just because you hold Mouse1 harder than some other player, it's ridiculous.
The problem with NS2 is not how it works, it's how it's understood and explained. You even mention this a better tutorial is and has been needed for longer than the games release.
If anything these changes should be simple improvements to the game to aid in the understanding of how everything works, why must the game be so radically changed to explain? The thing that makes NS2 unique is the fact it is a in-depth and very complex game.
Changes like sound cues to improve the game help a rookie, changing the entire concept of the game, WITHOUT A TUTORIAL, will lead to confusion, all the tips and existing videos of NS2 showcase powernodes and cysts.
Simple changes and improvements should be attempted long before these huge gameplay alterations take place, there is a lot of meta game that can instantly change with some of these changes which could wildly throw balance a curve ball. Oh and again, even if you made all these changes, rookies will still be bad unless a tutorial with these changes is implemented at the same time.
Why are you trying to make the game so incredibly handholding?
Cause that is 90% of the players of gaming land.
Then create something to teach those players how to play the damn game instead of making it handholding in all of it's "stages". You shouldn't be considered a good player just because you hold Mouse1 harder than some other player, it's ridiculous.
The rest of my post kinda addressed that issue though, NS2 will always be too complex and too hard for the casual shooty guy who doesn't want to learn to play and just... hehe indeed. just wants to "hold Mouse 1 harder than some other player". It is indeed ridiculous from our perspective, but that doesn't mean the casual funtime players will ever want to invest so much time into learning a game. They want instant fun instead of having to wait for research or invest into weapons/lifeforms and die and lose those
Last Stand is probably the most reminiscent of that instant fun gratification mode, without dire concequences
Honestly, there's a tonne of changes that could be made to simplify or allow easier access into the gameplay in NS2 but I believe that this needs something more akin to casual/rookie mode in CS:GO. It doesn't matter how simple you make it, if people can only play Onos for 10 seconds before dying and having to play skulk for another 20 minutes before getting another chance to play as an Onos for 15 seconds a second time, it won't help much.
I propose we keep the primary model of NS2 with appropriate changes that people suggested in this thread that fit but we also add in another mode. This can be played in pubs along the primary mode.
Rookie Mode idea:
- Personal resource rate drastically increased, possibly up to 3x the normal rate. This makes it so that new people aren't stuck on LMGs or skulks for 95% of the game. It shifts a lot of focus towards high-end tech which people will find more fun overall.
- Research rates increased, possibly lower cost as well for the more expensive stuff.
- Repair station (new structure or armory update) that periodically restores armor to any units including exos in a given radius, crags provide a passive regeneration heal over time that disables during combat, much how like old celerity worked (unsure on this, might lead to stalemates).
My only main concern with this would be that this would effectively reduce the number of people playing the core NS2 experience. Although, an incorporation of something like NS2stats into hive would be better, something more detailed than w/l and k/d and keep the main mode as the only source of ranking and skill tracking. I would assume that something like this wouldn't take too much work, it doesn't need to be 100% balanced, just fun for the most part and at the end of the day, new players want to use dual miniguns and play as a giant rhino, not about the intricacies of who wins or not. They don't get to do that much in the core game, they sit around with a shitty rifle and a floor running skulk.
I would also like to see combat mod make a return as an official game mode but I doubt that's going to happen as well as a more refined tutorial that explains skulk and fade jumping so new players don't run along the floor and quit after 5 minutes. Also, remove deaths from the scoreboard and hive. Replace it with something like kills per minute.
@IeptBarakat So to make the game more easy we are adding a even less intuitive movement then wallhop?
Yes I know old ns1 hop movement, I did it myself. I always hated it though. Used it to not fall behind, but its not rookie friendly at all.
Although I will admit I never could do it with ease either because I had a issue with following a sequence like that nonstop.. but I digress..
Im all for depth but adding bunnyhop is not the way to do it.
My intent wasn't to make it easy, ns1 pubs were largely unaffected by bunnyhopping as a result of it's difficulty. It's meant for higher level play than what should be dumped on the rookies in the beginning, and with the proposed rookie-only servers it is even less likely to affect them. If the person puts in the time and effort to use it effectively then they're already at a higher level than the average public server. It's nice to have an entry point for lower level play but the game shouldn't be completely brought down to that level.
Even at the ground level the effects would still be noticeable, players would have more air control than they do now so players wouldn't feel like jumping bricks in combat.
Also back on topic.
LMG Spread
Increase LMG spread and have a skill researchable on CC to decrease spread. Meant as a buff for low div Marines, but countered for high div by researching decreased spread.
Wouldn't this be confusing for new players? Some games they join would have different spreads for the same gun, on top of that the commander would eventually research it thinking it's an upgrade and the player would go back to being to unable to hit anything again. Releasing the higher spread variant as a side-grade the marine could choose to spawn with would be better understood overall in my opinion. For example, if you could get the classic lmg model that ns2:combat uses for the tighter spread lmg and move the higher spread variant to the assault rifle, players would easily be able to tell the two apart and stick with their preferred gun characteristics.
touch the powernode mechanic and the game will break.
The powernode mechanic is this:
* Marine bases are easy alien(s) to break. Especially so if unnoticed / unharassed.
Consequences to gameplay:
* "Power node under attack" audible messages had to be implemented.
* Map had to be augmented to really give commanders the idea that the power node being attacked is BAD BAD BAD.
* Marines must always be alert and ready to run back to base to defend it.
* Observatories are more important for their use of Beacon ability when marines can't get back fast enough.
* "Force a beacon" becomes a valid strategy.
* Phase tech becomes important not only to get newly spawned marines to the front lines, but to get them back to base as well.
How to achieve the same mechanics without a power node killing an entire base:
* Make other buildings, especially infantry portals, slightly weaker. Perhaps make IPs cost less to compensate for their reduced health. Test balance.
* Remove the audio alerts and map alerts that make the commander realize how important the power node is.
Additional benefits:
* Lone wolf gameplay is discouraged as the lone wolf can't be supported by their commander as well. Marines travel in groups more, and they live longer, and new players enjoy themselves more.
* Skilled players don't worry as much about the ever-present need to run back to base on a whim
* Aliens may force a beacon by attacking IPs, but this takes longer so it becomes less viable. The gameplay focuses on the front lines (and on keeping up RTs slightly behind the front lines, as it always was).
That's IT. Your game is balanced. It wasn't difficult.
Speaking of power nodes, why not do it the way the C&C games do it if people don't like the mechanics? Just make them less efficient than with power but still function, stuff takes longer to research, people take longer to respawn, beacons are slower, lights are out, phase gates are allow 1 person through every so often (3 seconds or so, instead of nearly instantly).
I actually like the power nodes anyway but it can be pretty frustrating.
Comments
I really like the lighting-ideas discussed so far: infestation spreading onto lightsources, making them flicker/reduce, unpowered rooms have lower to no light. I think it will give a big plus to the games atmosphere. The atmosphere in the Faded-Mod is freaking awesome and its darkness plays a big role to that.
Will new lighting help new players understand the game, though? Maybe. Entering a very dark room makes it blatantly obvious, that you are entering the "danger-zone", speak territory in which you live in more danger (as the com can not med you for example). With the bioluminescence: it might happen that rookies do not shoot the alien-structures as they are the only lightsource in the room?
Some are concerned that marine-pushes are not viable without meds/ammo. I guess marines just have to change their gameplay here: build power-node quick and early when you push. Or push without meds/ammo (or go back into a powered room to get them). However one could also implement some mechanic to reduce the effect. Like power-surging a room if you want to push - just to enable the med-ammo-drops for 10 seconds? It could be done automatically the first time you drop a med/ammo there. Or similarly increase the TRes on unpowered ground to 2 for ammo/meds. The later is harder to recognise for a rookie com that there is a change at all between powered/unpowered rooms. The former is easier to recognise, but more complex.
Anyways, I would love to see some changes to the lighting, that screenshot for example looks very promising.
If you want to know what bothers a noob then just ask a noob !
What UWE can do TODAY :
-Grab some random people in the street
-Ask them if they want to participate to a fun and exciting experiment. In exchange for their cooperation offer them coffee, chocolate, money, sex with Hugh, whatever...
-Put them ALONE in front of a computer with a fresh copy of NS2 installed
-Do not say or explain anything. Just ask them to play.
- Film the screen and the player. Possibly ask the player to say out loud what he/she is thinking when playing.
-Debrief. Ask what they liked, disliked, what they did not understand, etc.
After the player left, watch the videos again.
What the noob did IS the RIGHT thing to do. If what the noob did was inefficient then CHANGE THE GAME accordingly. What a noob does should be efficient (or at least somewhat efficient)
For instance, if the noob runs in a straight line as a skulk and gets raped then change the game so that running in a straight line does not get you raped anymore. I am not saying that running in a straight line as a skulk should make you OP but as least you should not get killed so easily.
Sorry for the bad english.
Bunnyhop in it's ns1 form is fine for intermediate to master level play, we have walljumping for the casual players and rookies but having something with a little more depth besides mashing jump alongside a wall's edge would be good to keep players around who want to 'go to the next level'.
Goldsrc movement was just more satisfying overall.
1) Get rid of Ammo packs. Just combine ammo with med packs. It's less work for both the Commander and Field players.
2) Increase the pick up radius for meds but lower the rate at which the commander can drop them. Should lead to higher med accuracy & efficiency.
3) Change Phase Gate structure into some more of a platform design (similar to an IP) instead of a "door way" so Aliens can't as easily grind gates.
4) Buy menus. This has been discussed for ages, and as far as I know there are technical problems associated with key binding overlapping or something of that nature. If someone could figure out a way around it, buy menus would be much more intuitive and fluid than what we have now.
5) Make cysts useful but not necessary. Turtsmcgurts mentioned several things you could do that make cysts useful but not mandatory such as tying structure abilities (healwave/ink/echo) to being on infestation. Another thing for instance, if you drop a new structure on infestation, the structure will start at like 20% built/hp, but if you drop it off infestation it will start at 5% grown/hp. Harvestors/Gorge Tunnels/Hives would be the only structures that grow their own infestation independently of cysts. This way infestation is incentivized but not necessary. Additionally, you could make it so structures can only gain armor if they are on infestation.
I'm not sold on getting rid of power nodes. I think it makes sense to have rooms be darkened when the powernodes aren't built (like at the start of a round), but making that the only purpose of powernodes could be game-breaking. No more rushing Marine base power, ninja phasegates directly to Alien hive, too easy to relocate or build emergency observatory -- the list goes on.
Moreover, I believe you will have an unpredictable impact on the economy of the game with a change like this.
Again, there's the issue of economy, however I'm not completely disliking this suggestion, because this does seem to raise the skill floor a little bit, to the benefit of the rookie. So I like this change, but the impact on the economy should be explored.
I remember being a little overwhelmed when I first started playing with having 3 separate binds to get commanders attention (health/ammo/order) all of which are spread out over the default bindings of my keyboard (Q, Z, and H). And I don't think it will have that significant of an impact on the economy of the game. I've seen games where 250 meds are dropped and only like 30 ammo packs. The medpack/ammo ratio is usually within the vicinity of 10:1.
NS2 anthem ^^
Consider this instead:
- On first gamestart have a notification: This game can be confusing and hard for new players as it is rather complex and has some not that intuitve gameplay mechanics. We suggest you play the basic tutorials before joining on a server. Would you like to do so now?
- When openeing the server browser the first time have a notification: Servers marked green are recommended for new players to start with, keep that in mind when joining a Server.
- Having the possibility for server owners to mark their server as "teaching" which also give a hint to new players that there might be people around on this server who could help them lern the game
- Vanilla possibility to elolock servers so that players above or below a certain elo/playtime/skilllevel can't play there (I know Hive is shit but as far as I know you guys are working on a new system anyways)
- Vanilla possibility to prevent rookies from commanding without having played the commanding tutorials or a certain playtime (might mark players who have played the tutorial with a tutorial command batch which gets upgraded to the normal commander batch when actually commanding rounds)
- Have the tutorials split up into basic and advanced sections
Basic should cover:- What is the comm chair/hive
- What is the role of the commander
- What are Resources, teamwise aswell as playerwise
- How to gain them
- What structures are there and what is their purpose
More Advanced tutorials on:- How to walljump
- How to duckjump
- Advantage of sneaking
- How to ambush
- Corner checking
- The Welder and how to help your teammates by welding them
Lifeforms and advanced weaponary:- The shotgun
- The GL
- The flamethrower
- Exosuits
- Jetpacks
- Spread the love aka gorging
- The lerk and its objective in the different gamestages
- The fade and its objective in the different gamestages
- The onos and its objective in the different gamestages
Commanding:I am sure if you ask the community they will happily volunteer helping you out with planing and creating these, just give some ingame badges
No matter what just please dont make this another gerneric fragging shooter because that would kill the game for me and I think there are many players who feel the same.
Don't simplify the game, but simplify the learning by providing a helping hand to new players.
I've been playing NS since 2002 and I've gotten to the point where, when there is so much down-time in between rounds, I simply leave the game for other games with no down-time in between rounds. This is a serious issue to the success of this game.
So, the inevitable question needs to be asked: Why do most players not want to go commander? Answers I could give are:
- Probably the biggest one: Most players simply don't want to play the RTS part of NS2 and just want to play FPS.
- Too much responsibility/too stressful
- Target for blame if the team doesn't do well
- Too much to do/too confusing.
- It's boring.
Suggestions:
I would love to see the alien team scrap the commander: do what was done with NS1 and have the gorges build structures and do commander roles. For marines, why not go the same way as the NS1 alien team except players can choose to be a Soldier or an Engineer and the Engineers would do commander duties and as a trade-off, would get access to less powerful/different weapons.
If you are going to make power nodes a separate tech path I think you need to make it a strong tech path. If it was just catpacks and nanosheild I would never build power. Catpacks and nanosheild go unused in the majority of games, and so would powernodes.
This could also easily be balanced. Marines already pretty much build the power in most rooms on the map. If medpacks were tied to power, you can bet every powernode will get built if marines can hold the room. I also am thinking build times would have to be really quick. 3 seconds to get the power up with a welder, 5 seconds without. That is quick. I would also double the amount of time it takes for aliens to kill the power. I don't know the current value, but just double it. Aliens would then have to dedicate serious time to killing it, while marines could just put it right back up. 3 marines with a welder would put it up in 1 second. It would not be that hard.
The biggest way this would effect gameplay would be making it very hard for either team to stay in enemy territory for long.
I like your thoughts and how the complement mine. It would certainly shake up the marine meta game. Anytime I enter a room, if I have the chance I will build the power just because I could possibly get meds. If I don't get meds, an alien might commit a lot of time to killing that power. I don't think alien-structures being the only lightsource would be a problem for veterans because I would build the power before I started killing the harvester. If the power only took 3 seconds to build with a welder why not just build it?
I also like your idea to power surge a room. I could see this being a 2 chair ability for the commander. With 2 chairs a commander could use a power surge in a hive push. This would give more reason to having 2 chairs, but also not make 2 chairs necessary. Power surge would last 10-15 seconds? The value is up for debate.
I like 1 and 2 as the complement making power nodes a separate tech path. They would help make power nodes as a strong tech path to pursue. With all the ideas I have suggested I have been thinking medpacks might need a buff but I could not immediately thing of one. A cost reduction would not work well. Your 1 and 2 ideas would be decent buffs while also making the game just slightly more rookie friendly.
If you are going to make power nodes a separate tech path I think you need to make it a strong tech path. There are other ideas that are good in this thread that do not make powernodes and infestation a separate tech path. They are tying power to rt's, and infestation comes from structures.
New players don't want to watch a tutorial video, or play a tutorial, or do any research on the game, so don't make them, put all that information right in front of them, in easy to understand language, as they're playing at the right moments. When they evolve to a Lifeform, pop-ups tell you how to play that lifeform, what that lifeform's role is, and gives some basic tips on how to be effective as that lifeform. Perhaps even a pop-up advising rookies when to "get out". When rookies wander off alone as marine, pop-ups tell them that their chances are much better in a group, and so on. Not just "Press E to Build Structure at Waypoint!", causing new players to get immediately yelled at for finishing the power when they should have left it primed (again, pop-ups can inform new players of this mechanic and suggest the do not finish building the power until other structures are finished). Have the pro players help you with this, there is a LOT of meta-game in this game, and that's part of what makes this game great, but it needs to be explained in a way that makes the game easy to learn (and yet, of course, hard to master).
In my view, the only way to "bring back" NS2 is to re-release it (as "NS3" or whatever), with competitive and casual matchmaking (which requires a better way of ranking player skill), and a much more intuitive tutorial which guides new players as they play. And preferably with an engine that isn't a buggy piece of shit.
As for feedback on OP's Google doc "NS2 Simplification Ideas": I think the sound cues are the only good idea. The lerk gas changes suggested are in CompMod (which I use on my server) and would be fine if implemented into vanilla, but the other ideas if implemented would probably make me move on to a different game.
Alien Evolution and upgrades..
A possible alternative gamemode of some kind.
When the alien commander evolves his first hive he is locked into a particular evolution tech tree. a shade hive would allow the alien commander to unlock 1 of 4 evolutions for his team.
As new hives are built a new evolution can be selected to be built. Essentially each hive built is a shade hive that allows you to progress further up the shade hive tech tree. It works the same for each of the 3 hive types, Crag Shift and Shade. Being able to mix diffierent hives could also be a possibilty that would allow the kham to select 1 evolution from each built hives tech tree, 3 shade hives build 3 shade hive evolutions, 1 shade 1 crag 1 shift would build 1 of each etc..
Shade
aura (with obs invisiblity when moving slowly/ stationary)
phantom (works like now but with improved invisiblity)
Corrosion works like acidic vengeance from ns2 combat.
Hunger works exactly like hunger from ns2 combat with the exception of healing more health based upon biomass level.
Crag
Carapace same as current.
Regeneration same as current
Focus increases damage and healing by 10%
????
Shift
Adrenaline works the same as current
celerity works the same as current.
frenzy increases the bite speed by 20%
shadow allows the alien to shadow step at the cost of energy, the more biomass the cheaper it becomes.
Love the idea of removing crop dusting. Love combining medpack and ammo and increasing cost and refresh time, and only being able to drop them in rooms that have power. Further to this, I could stand to change catpack to player only and nanoshield to structure only. As they sit, it's not clear that nanoshield can work for both structure and players. With regards to keeping players alive via drops, the commander SHOULD have to consider the resource cost of each drop and whether it's worth it, and the game should NOT reward lone wolf hive-harassment gameplay. This is especially frustrating for new players who wonder why they can't spawn when there's just one lone marine in their spawn point, and usually happens early in the game at that.
Speaking of which, one of the true frustrations for low-skill players regardless of play time is how easy it is to die to a sharpshooter marine. It is common to see players with a 30:1 K:D ratio. No matter which side that player joins, that side will win; the sharpshooter marine becomes a pawn that the commander moves around the map, quelling all of the alien's attempts to advance. I don't mind this being the case in the late-game when railguns come out, but when both sides have no upgrades and a lone marine can win over a group of 3 ambushing skulks, the gameplay is flawed. Any method of fixing this broken mechanic should be #1 on the priority list.
Alien changes - http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/139568/my-alien-change-ideas#latest
Marine Changes - http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/139569/my-marine-change-ideas#latest
Now I know not everything will simplify the game, but there are things in there that could be potential solutions to issues that are coming up in the document at the moment... or potentially something that will make one or more of you get inspiration from.
I'm 100% behind the removal of cysts and powernodes... not only will it simplify gameplay, but it will also minimalize the amount of infestation being produced, which if I recall correctly was one of the FPS issue causers (not sure if that is still the case, i'm going back a long way)
The medpack issue is something i've brought up a few times... in my opinion there are a few solutions to this.
1. make the AoE of the medpack larger to make landing medpacks easier (not good imo)
2. make medpacks a heal over time and none stackable (also not great imo.)
3. Alter the commander UI so he can see his marines (like spectators can see both teams). make these hud marines a "drop zone" allowing the commander to drop medpacks onto the hud plate... this would also make medding multiple engagements easier too. (my personal favorite)
As for the people saying that commanding is boring/alien commander needs to go etc... NO!... just absolutely NO!!!... I play this game BECAUSE of the command chair/hive... and I prefer alien commanding to marine commanding... I believe more can be added to commanding to add more depth to it... I don't believe that people don't want to command because its boring, people don't want to command because you get blamed for losses that aren't your fault (bad medpacking, wrong tech path, jumping out of the chair instead of beaconing or dropping a second CC etc etc etc).
For marine weapons you could experiment with pitch changing or slightly altering the firing sounds to differentiate between the 0/1/2/3 weapon levels.
Cause that is 90% of the players of gaming land.
I'm all for fixing the hidden game mechanics of NS2, because when it comes down to the game is pure chaos in terms of what you need to know in order to stand a chance as a newbie even against average players. Too many clunky design decisions, to many unnecessarily complex things. Coming up with ideas to streamline those issues will maken NS2 classic better. But we do have to face reality here as well, NS2 is NEVER going to appeal to the masses or casual players. This is and will always be a Hardcore Quake/UT derelict of a game.
Please fix the hidden game mechanics, but DO NOT add these simple modes to NS2 classic, you will kill off the NS2 classic playerbase with that.
If we really want the NS2 universe to expand in playerbase (casuals), we need to work on new game modes that are easy to jump into and just kinda zergrush without much consequences. Fun factor is different for hardcore oldschool vets vs the new gaming crowd, they want those one man army type of games that are a helluva lot slower paced than NS2 can ever be (without destroying the game)...
Yes I know old ns1 hop movement, I did it myself. I always hated it though. Used it to not fall behind, but its not rookie friendly at all.
Although I will admit I never could do it with ease either because I had a issue with following a sequence like that nonstop.. but I digress..
Im all for depth but adding bunnyhop is not the way to do it.
ez
"I can't close the distance between marines and myself easily enough!"
Then create something to teach those players how to play the damn game instead of making it handholding in all of it's "stages". You shouldn't be considered a good player just because you hold Mouse1 harder than some other player, it's ridiculous.
The problem with NS2 is not how it works, it's how it's understood and explained. You even mention this a better tutorial is and has been needed for longer than the games release.
If anything these changes should be simple improvements to the game to aid in the understanding of how everything works, why must the game be so radically changed to explain? The thing that makes NS2 unique is the fact it is a in-depth and very complex game.
Changes like sound cues to improve the game help a rookie, changing the entire concept of the game, WITHOUT A TUTORIAL, will lead to confusion, all the tips and existing videos of NS2 showcase powernodes and cysts.
Simple changes and improvements should be attempted long before these huge gameplay alterations take place, there is a lot of meta game that can instantly change with some of these changes which could wildly throw balance a curve ball. Oh and again, even if you made all these changes, rookies will still be bad unless a tutorial with these changes is implemented at the same time.
The rest of my post kinda addressed that issue though, NS2 will always be too complex and too hard for the casual shooty guy who doesn't want to learn to play and just... hehe indeed. just wants to "hold Mouse 1 harder than some other player". It is indeed ridiculous from our perspective, but that doesn't mean the casual funtime players will ever want to invest so much time into learning a game. They want instant fun instead of having to wait for research or invest into weapons/lifeforms and die and lose those
Last Stand is probably the most reminiscent of that instant fun gratification mode, without dire concequences
I propose we keep the primary model of NS2 with appropriate changes that people suggested in this thread that fit but we also add in another mode. This can be played in pubs along the primary mode.
Rookie Mode idea:
- Personal resource rate drastically increased, possibly up to 3x the normal rate. This makes it so that new people aren't stuck on LMGs or skulks for 95% of the game. It shifts a lot of focus towards high-end tech which people will find more fun overall.
- Research rates increased, possibly lower cost as well for the more expensive stuff.
- Repair station (new structure or armory update) that periodically restores armor to any units including exos in a given radius, crags provide a passive regeneration heal over time that disables during combat, much how like old celerity worked (unsure on this, might lead to stalemates).
My only main concern with this would be that this would effectively reduce the number of people playing the core NS2 experience. Although, an incorporation of something like NS2stats into hive would be better, something more detailed than w/l and k/d and keep the main mode as the only source of ranking and skill tracking. I would assume that something like this wouldn't take too much work, it doesn't need to be 100% balanced, just fun for the most part and at the end of the day, new players want to use dual miniguns and play as a giant rhino, not about the intricacies of who wins or not. They don't get to do that much in the core game, they sit around with a shitty rifle and a floor running skulk.
I would also like to see combat mod make a return as an official game mode but I doubt that's going to happen as well as a more refined tutorial that explains skulk and fade jumping so new players don't run along the floor and quit after 5 minutes. Also, remove deaths from the scoreboard and hive. Replace it with something like kills per minute.
My intent wasn't to make it easy, ns1 pubs were largely unaffected by bunnyhopping as a result of it's difficulty. It's meant for higher level play than what should be dumped on the rookies in the beginning, and with the proposed rookie-only servers it is even less likely to affect them. If the person puts in the time and effort to use it effectively then they're already at a higher level than the average public server. It's nice to have an entry point for lower level play but the game shouldn't be completely brought down to that level.
Even at the ground level the effects would still be noticeable, players would have more air control than they do now so players wouldn't feel like jumping bricks in combat.
Also back on topic.
Wouldn't this be confusing for new players? Some games they join would have different spreads for the same gun, on top of that the commander would eventually research it thinking it's an upgrade and the player would go back to being to unable to hit anything again. Releasing the higher spread variant as a side-grade the marine could choose to spawn with would be better understood overall in my opinion. For example, if you could get the classic lmg model that ns2:combat uses for the tighter spread lmg and move the higher spread variant to the assault rifle, players would easily be able to tell the two apart and stick with their preferred gun characteristics.
The powernode mechanic is this:
* Marine bases are easy alien(s) to break. Especially so if unnoticed / unharassed.
Consequences to gameplay:
* "Power node under attack" audible messages had to be implemented.
* Map had to be augmented to really give commanders the idea that the power node being attacked is BAD BAD BAD.
* Marines must always be alert and ready to run back to base to defend it.
* Observatories are more important for their use of Beacon ability when marines can't get back fast enough.
* "Force a beacon" becomes a valid strategy.
* Phase tech becomes important not only to get newly spawned marines to the front lines, but to get them back to base as well.
How to achieve the same mechanics without a power node killing an entire base:
* Make other buildings, especially infantry portals, slightly weaker. Perhaps make IPs cost less to compensate for their reduced health. Test balance.
* Remove the audio alerts and map alerts that make the commander realize how important the power node is.
Additional benefits:
* Lone wolf gameplay is discouraged as the lone wolf can't be supported by their commander as well. Marines travel in groups more, and they live longer, and new players enjoy themselves more.
* Skilled players don't worry as much about the ever-present need to run back to base on a whim
* Aliens may force a beacon by attacking IPs, but this takes longer so it becomes less viable. The gameplay focuses on the front lines (and on keeping up RTs slightly behind the front lines, as it always was).
That's IT. Your game is balanced. It wasn't difficult.
I actually like the power nodes anyway but it can be pretty frustrating.