The main problem for poor player retention is new players are pitched against players with 1-2000 hours.
No matter how simple you go this problem will remain...
It's almost like new players need a separate game-mode that they can get right into, and not have to wait 10 mins to flash their fade or lose their jp and shotgun in an instant, a game-mode where they can just understand the game.
I've got about 100 hours in the game. I am a very jaded gamer who has played difficult games like CS:GO, Planetside 2, Starcraft, Halo Wars, Dark Souls, etc. With that disclaimer....
The number one problem I have in this game and many others have shared with me, is the difficulty... Now I am not saying you need to nerf the game to be easier, games such as Dota 2 and CS:GO have a HUGE player base and are actually very hard to master.
What I am saying is, you need to have an incentive to play the game. Ranks, gun skins, player skins, progression stuff, stuff that makes players stand out for their achievements and shows how badass someone is. People in CSGO play to get ranked up because everyone wants to be a GLOBAL ELITE or have that new shiny gun skin.
You need to reward the player for working so hard. You also need to make sure your ranks work the same as CSGO where the ranking system is based off who is the best and not XP. CSGO uses a system that compares how good you are by comparing you to everyone else and seeing what % you fall in. If your % is in the top 10% or so, then you are a global elite. People want things that are rare.
You also need a matchmaking, currently this game is like Planetside 2 where you just pit players of all skill levels against each other, and that is pretty bad for such a small game. You need RANKS and the ability to separate the SUPER high skilled players from the noobies.
It would also be nice to have a way to limit ping connections to a server (EX: a player has over 130 ping, so he can't join the server) High ping seems to really affect hit detection and where the actual enemy player is. I am constantly getting shot when I am already behind cover, I believe this may be due to high ping players.
Your removal of cysts idea is a great one. Currently the alien side has to do MUCH more than the marines to actually make it anywhere in the game. You could also make it so marines have to run wires and not remove the cysts, that way both teams have the web based resource system.
I will admit as well that your tutorial system is extremely lacking, most alien players have no idea what buildings are the upgrade buildings or what anything does. I believe an in-game tutorial could solve this where a player could go up to a building and click a button and see what it does. Although with most games, the community is the teacher / tutorial; the videos on youtube, the reddit posts, etc. You just need to teach players the basics and make things easier to see.
With all that said, I love this game. This is a dream game to me. I want to invite all my friends to come play, I want to spend thousands of hours playing, I want to buy things like keys to crates to get some new cosmetic that gives me some bling, I want to become good at this game, and I want to see this game SUCCEED!! But GOD DAMMIT!! Could this game use the stuff I mentioned and some real cleaning up. I can't get my friends to play because they see no reason to play such a frustrating and difficult game.
So, I will be keeping track of your plans and development over the next few months and if you do the things I listed and give the game some much needed love and cleaning up, I will be sure to get as many friends and people I can find into the game.
The main problem for poor player retention is new players are pitched against players with 1-2000 hours.
No matter how simple you go this problem will remain...
It's almost like new players need a separate game-mode that they can get right into, and not have to wait 10 mins to flash their fade or lose their jp and shotgun in an instant, a game-mode where they can just understand the game.
There does need to be a mode where you practice life forms through training exercises, and possibly servers that are high res servers to test out life forms.
I am a newcomer with about 100 hours played. I remember many things that confused or annoyed me. I wanted to quit the game many times. I persisted and now I'm enjoying the game very much. You're right that in order to retain rookies, you really need to improve the newcomer experience.
First things first:
If you want to improve rookie experience, you need to ask rookies. You won't find them here. You need to reach out to them on the game main screen, or on map loading screen, or on death screen/pre-game mode screen.
You should use a proper tool for this discussion. It's much better to have a threaded discussion than a huge unthreaded flow like this (under a blogpost or in a forum). It's hard to watch out for replies, it's hard to add something, it just gets lost. I see some people link to userreports.com, yet I see no official links to it from anywhere (game main webpage, etc). People will not find it. Use good tools and make them discoverable. Don't require registration, that's puts off most. Allow external logins or just email-based (userreports.com seems to do this). Or use Steam forums for gathering feedback, that's available right away to everyone.
Now for improved rookie experience (from what I remember, in no particular order):
Add in-game encyclopedia listing all units, structures and abilities with simple description, recommendations, and perhaps even videos. Make it easily available from the game (from the evolve menu, allow to show encyclopedia entry for each lifeform).
Make it more obvious when game is not started and we're waiting for a commander. I can't count how many times I thought we're actually playing. Remove glitches like missing crosshair during pre-game, that only adds to confusion.
Make NS2+ mod the default. It improves the game so much I consider vanilla NS2 unplayable. It also adds to confusion of rookies, because if they by chance connect to vanilla NS2 server, some things work differently (for example C key is not a toggle, you need to hold it) and they have no idea why.
Consolidate the voting menus. I know of 3 different voting menus in the game - X button, M button and Esc->Vote button. That's insane, and it's one of the reasons why rookies never know how to eject commander or vote concede. (On top of that, X collides with last-game stats, so it depends if you quickly press it or hold it - this is madness).
Remove "concede not allowed" timer.
Make it easier for teams to concede or eject commander. It's very hard to do that now, mostly because people don't know how to do it. They react much better to F1/F2 voting, because that is obvious! So maybe change concede/eject into F1/F2 vote.
Make it more obvious who's currently talking. From UI standpoint, move the indicators from right screen edge to left screen edge, because everything is at the left screen edge. With larger screen, the right edge is out of your focus area and it's very hard to notice the speakers name. Make the name disappear gradually, so it's possible to still read it even if they bark a single command (otherwise the indicator is instantly gone, and you have no idea who was just talking). From in-game standpoint, if I see the person, it should be *very* obvious he's talking - add a big icon, or even better highlight him and his name. You can even consider highlighting the person through walls, even if I don't directly see him.
Make the near-world chat (added recently) more used. I haven't seen anyone use it yet, most people probably don't even know. Teach them, and add a default keybinding. This is much more useful when shouting something like "behind you!". When I'm using near-world chat, highlight the names of other players around me, so that I can easily address the right person.
Add more skill-limited servers. I know only of one (<1000 skill), and it's not always running. This helps *a lot* and I really enjoy playing there. No more freaking 2500-skill sharpshooter gods.
Make extremely good players handicapped in some way. If somebody has 10:1 K:D ratio or more, clearly the game is not balanced, and I can guarantee you the rookies are not enjoying it. This can be solved with skill-limited servers, but maybe you can even put a bounty on such a player - the enemy team getting extra RTs for killing such a player. Highlighting him in red in alien vision, so that rookies don't attack him one by one. Or something similar. I admit, this is controversial, but extremely skilled players were my #1 cause of rage-quitting this game. I was convinced they are cheaters with aimbots. Now that I have more experience, I tend to believe they are simply so good. But don't underestimate the emotions the rookies get from this.
It would be very helpful for rookies to see why exactly they died, because often they die and don't even know how. After death, replay the last 10 seconds in slow motion, in third person view or the killer view, and show them exactly what went wrong. This will help with cheater accusations greatly. How was it possible that he saw them when they though they were hidden? How come they got shot when it seemed he was looking the other way? Show people how they died.
Even better, it would be great to automatically save replay from any of the past few games, and be able to replay them and switch between views of any of the players.
Gorge build menu needs to be separated from the attacking skills, because people very often unintentionally switch into it during battle and then madly mash buttons to get back to a different attack. And end up building things instead. Move it to the last number (4?) and make the other skills grayed out with "not researched" subtitle when not available, or move it to something like number 0, far away.
Fix or remove unused skills and items. I've never seen webs. I usually don't see well used babblers, I think people mostly build them in accident/just for fun. Marines don't use other grenades than cluster grenades, and I'm not surprised - aliens are too fast and people don't believe they can hit them with it. When turrets are used, commanders get scolded. Flamethrowers are often bought by rookies who think it's a great weapon against aliens, while it's not, they just instantly die and lose resources. All these items should be changed or thrown out.
Add descriptions to items when buying them from armory. E.g. if you decide to keep flamethrower, write "mostly useful for damaging/disabling alien structures, not very effective against alien lifeforms". Will help rookies a lot.
Get rid of unbuilt invulnerable power nodes. The fact that good players build it to 95% and only finish it when needed adds a) busywork for good players b) confusion for rookies who get yelled at for finishing the power node (something the automatic ingame guidance system told them to do!). There's no benefit, only frustration. When power node is getting built, do it the same way as all other buildings do - start at low health and increase.
Get rid of medpack spam. It's a nasty way to keep uber-skilled players even more godlike. I have played too many games where an extremely skilled player kills 4+ skulks attacking him at once, and then marches forward and destroys everything else in sight including a hive, alone. Because the combination of a high-skilled player and a fast-finger commander can't be beaten by rookies. And they are dumbfounded why the hell is that marine still standing and killing everything, even though he should be ten times dead with all the one-time bites they managed to do before dying over and over again. Add a medpack delay either to receiving side (marine) or to supplying side (commander).
Unify build tool and welder. Either remove welder completely and make builder tool do everything, or have it still possible to purchase and show it as an upgraded build tool (different graphics) with extended abilities (weld marines). Use one key for everything.
Full-sized maps are one of the biggest problems in the game. Until you know maps by heart, you have to run around with map open. It's easier if you're a marine, because you have a minimap, but for an alien, you spend 50% time running around with map open. So first, you don't see anything properly, and second, the map graphics are so terrible that you constantly bump into walls that are not displayed in the map. Please, please, please, for the love of god, redraw the maps and a) make them extremely simple and clean b) include all walls or terrain elevation elements. It is so frustrating to walk around with map covering 90% of your screen, and not being able to exit the room, because the walls are drawn incorrectly. And if you close the map, you have no idea where to go.
Add alien minimap. I know it doesn't make too much sense (marines have HUDs in helmets), but for a rookie, it was one of the top reason why I refused to play aliens. Full-sized map is too clunky for real-time navigation, but without a minimap rookies just run through rooms randomly, or constantly stopping, opening the map, turning into a proper direction, running a few meters and over and over again. And dying, because static skulk is a dead skulk. I have died so many times when studying a map.
Make vent openings glow/get highlighted in alien vision. Vents are almost unused by rookies (and very much unused by me even after 100 hours of experience). Why? Because I can't freaking find them. Some are visible, but many are so well hidden (and the map graphics is so poor), that many times I have spent *minutes* running around a room looking for that particular vent that the map claimed should be somewhere here, and didn't find it. Frustrated, I kept running through the corridors. It's easier than finding vents, even though it means more dying. This goes directly against NS2 intention - sneaky skulks. Make the vent entrances highlighted and draw the maps better. You could also draw the guiding arrows when being near the vent to help discover it, because some of them are really insanely hidden.
When being inside a vent and the vent turns 90% vertically, I find it very hard to navigate. I have to turn around several times to figure out which ways are open, and by that time I lose track of which way I came from, so I need to open my map. Another set of guiding arrows showing possible directions near vent turns would also help a lot.
Show hit indicators by default and show real damage numbers. This is very important for user feedback. It happens very often that you try to chomp somebody but he's too far away or to the side and you don't hit him at all. Without any obvious hit indication, you have no idea, and then you're angry about game bugs. Also, I read somewhere that the damage numbers do not show real damage, but damage before damage reduction (armor types and such). It seems to go along with my experience when I damage a skulk for much more than he should have health (according to after-death stats), but he still doesn't die and kill me. If the numbers are really not final, stop the madness and show real numbers. It would clear some confusion, and it would also help players to discover whether e.g. a rifle or a pistol is more effective at Onos.
Remove movement mechanics which require thousands of hours to master, are unrealistic, and basically misuse the game engine. I'm talking mainly about very advanced lerk movement here. Some players are able to get invincible by performing something like a permanent epileptic seizure moves while still flying 100mph and biting everyone in sight. It's no fun, it's impossible to counter by average players, and it something it shouldn't exist - no creature is able to change its movement direction 10 times in a second. I see it as an engine hack, because I assume the hit detection goes nuts and most of the shots are not registered. There should be a limit on the speed with which you can turn around, regardless of your through-the-roof mouse sensitivity setting. But this also goes the other way - don't add hard-to-master features like strafejumping which will make overpowered players even more overpowered. I know good players need advanced techniques to distinguish themselves, but movement glitches are not a good idea. If there are other such techniques in the game (e.g. if you strafe while walljumping, you're faster), please remove them.
The cost of upgrades (either marine or alien) are off-putting. As a rookie, I die with shotgun as quickly as with rifle, or with lerk as quickly as a skulk. But the cost is disheartening, it takes me 5 minutes to earn it again. At least for marines, the guns are dropped and can be picked up by someone else (usually by good players, who are fed by rookies, because it doesn't work the other way round - good players don't die much and therefore rookies only buy, but almost never pick up for free). For aliens, the money is lost completely. I don't know how to fix this, but I consider it one of the major design issues. In my case, I ended up playing rifle marine or a skulk the whole game (even with 100 personal res), because upgrades made not much difference and only made me feel worse.
Add a game mode in which everything is researched, bases are invulnerable, and players can buy and evolve everything. This can be used by rookies to test their weapons/skills against other players. If they die, they don't need to wait for an eternity and save, they'll just buy/evolve again and experiment more. Something like the current pre-game mode, but all the time, so that you don't need to wait for it. Just a few servers with this "carnage" mode would suffice, it would be mainly for rookies to test everything.
Make the rounds start faster somehow. Usually there's no commander and I suspect some people might not even know that is a problem, they are just happy to fool around in the all-tech-available mode.
Engaging tutorials and practices mode would certainly do wonders for rookies.
I never notice that upgrades are available. Even though it's written on screen and there's an audio cue, I never notice it (there are too many sounds around and too many things happening on the screen). This is not a problem for marines, upgrades are applied automatically and you see weapons in armory. But for aliens, this is crucial, and I believe most rookies don't evolve lifeform traits. Especially when they use a hotkey for evolving last traits after death, you might figure out that a new trait was available for 20 minutes and you still don't use it. It should be more obvious on the evolve screen that the person should pick traits, and if I use a hotkey to evolve it and I'm missing something that could be added (especially when it's free), I should be visibly notified during evolve time with text and audio.
Make entering a comm chair a conscious decision, not just hit E. Ask "do you really want to be a commander? yes/no" and make them click. Explain what commander is, that only experienced people might want to be a commander, and how to log out. Too many rookies hop in the chair by accident, just pressing E because the tooltip says so, and don't know how to get out. Don't start the game immediately after getting a comm chair.
Show some feedback whether I'm welding something or not. Often it happens that I and a different player try to weld something, but I stand a little too far and I'm actually not welding it. But I don't know that, because I have no indication about it, I just see the percentage increase, and I have no idea that it's done by a single person, not the two of us.
It could be a good idea to indicate a server preferred language in the server list. Some servers do it in their names, but many don't. Since this is primarily a team-based game, it would help a lot to know which language the people are most probably going to speak.
Motivate people to use voice chat somehow. Grant badges. Most people are silent.
In the skill tree (J key), don't display just icons, but also names. Rookies don't know the icons, even I still don't remember/recognize some of them. Also, if you don't know the name, you can't ask/search for it.
And some annoyances that I observed:
Stop spawning people facing the ground.
Stop spawning the marine facing a different direction than he was looking into from the third-person view a fraction of a second before (when waiting to be 100% spawned).
Show marine buildings health bars properly when an alien is very close to them and/or facing down (e.g. skulk chomping on RT). Currently they just disappear.
Add shortcuts for buying items from armory. It there are some, make them obvious.
Other thoughts:
I don't see any issues with power node/cysts, as suggested here, really. I think they're quite fine as they are. That doesn't mean the proposals are not improvements, I don't know. I just didn't see any rookies issues with the current state of things.
People are discussing audio cues for 2 hives, 3 hives here. Honestly, I have no idea what it is good for, and neither rookies probably do. What is important is the availability of new upgrades (lifeforms and their traits). Not sure about hive numbers announcement. There are already too many announcements.
It would be great to be able to bind a special key for certain abilities, like parasite, that would perform one-time action, but keep the current attack selected. So that I could click a button to spit a parasite, but still use left mouse button to chomp, without switching. I don't know how good players do it, but they are able to parasite me in midair and instantly bite me a fraction of a second later. I find it very hard to do with default bindings.
This thread has spawned so many walls of text that we can build a new and improved NS-themed house!
Threw mine into spoilers to make it easier for everyone.
Sound Cues:
Love the idea, but only under specific circumstances, such as:
End Game Tech:
- 3rd hive complete: Map-Wide "Now We Dance" (best audio clip for aliens imo ) audio cue, with a banner for all marine players stating that aliens have 3 hives.
- W3/A3 and Proto-Tech researched: Map-Wide "Kill 'em all, its the only way to be sure", with banner for all alien players reporting advanced tech is complete.
Other Enemy Tech Milestones:
- Marines:
When a higher life form gets spotted: "We've got a big one", with banner stating type of life form spotted.
*Only when visually spotted, so we dont ruin surprises
- Aliens:
New weapons spotted, new armor or weapons level: "The Intruders Evolve", with banner reporting what new weapons/upgrade has been spotted.
Removing restrictions on gameplay can only be good imo, so not needing power or cysts to build will open new strategies.
Power Node/Cyst suggestions:
Possible uses for powernodes (beyond lights):
When active, the power node will slowy repair the armor only of all structures in the room.
- Health damage on structures can only be repaired by a welder
- Makes power node optional, and useful
-- Add a cost to power nodes and rename to "Nanite Fabricator" to indicate function
- Lights are locked "ON" while power node is active
Possible use for Cysts:
- Bring back player buffs while on infestation, based on hive type (minor hp regen, minor energy regen, muffled movement, )
-- OR - Bring back hivesight
- Buildings have no HP Regen if not cysted
-- Buildings also get buffs based on hive type if connected (faster hp regen, passively cloaked, can be echoed to any location that is cysted)
--- The above would require a change to echo and make it ties to cysted structures
Allow cysts to be built on power node locations to "Lock" lights off (not red)
Adjusting tech to be more user friendly and intuitive is also a great direction to go.
Ability/Tech Changes:
Aliens:
+1 to ranged spores, they will be welcome and needed, but i feel that they would be more useful on hive 2, with a stronger umbra as hive 3 (for really making marines feel hopeless)
Vortex: I may be alone, but phasing out buildings and players was awsome. Make vortex a ranged projectile, that can only affect 1 target.
Stab: remove all movement penalties
Make babblers free (uses energy), have their own weapon slot, and limited in number
Marines:
- Slightly reduced accuracy for rifle (from current), with an "advanced targeting" or "uranium rounds" upgrade for slightly higher accuracy (from current)
- NS1 style hand grenades
-- Marines spawn with a single "base" frag grenade
-- Can purchase the current versions at current prices
- The welder idea is great, most people will already assume the welder is better at building things, since it costs money.
- Allow Exos to buy and equip welders
New Player Improvements for specific "pain-points"
Flash-Lifeforms:
If a player dies as a lifeform, allow that player to evolve to that lifeform again for half cost, and consume all resources above that up to the full cost (basically locks a player into that life form)
Misleading costs:
Nordic's UI change to order of lifeforms seems great, order lifeforms and weapons by killing power, not cost
Global/Regional chat accesable from the main menu and servers where players can interact and work to seed servers together, to reduce time to have an active server
Scripted tutorial game or missions that allow players to see every lifeform and weapon in active and use it themselves.
Changing default keybindings to have as much crossover as possible between the 2 teams will help reduce confusion (i.e. "buy" being B for both teams)
A couple of servers have done this but I'd also recommend making it more common: rookie only servers, veteran only servers, etc. This can be created by admins in some sense but official servers with varying rules would also help such as the following:
- Rookie only servers, players with less than '50' hours or 'X' level in hive
- Normal servers that anyone can join, have a disclaimer for people that have less than '50' hours/X level that rookie-only should be recommended, similar to the 24+ notice, might be some overlap between > 24 and rookie players though
- Veteran servers, players who have 'X' level in hive
- Elite servers, players with a certain skill rank or higher
Doesn't matter how simple the game can get, if they're getting destroyed by average players in NS2 standards, they aren't gonna play the game for long. I wouldn't want to go against a masters protoss in SC2 as a bronze terran, it would suck. I feel that this might be a lot of work though but just a recommendation.
Btw, with the above comments, how difficult would it be to implement a kill-cam similar to CoD? I imagine it would be a lot of work at this point but could be a big help for new players.
Thanks to everyone for the feedback and discussion, keep it up! I'll be helping @rantology collect and organize everything for the next little while. I'd also like to specially thank @navazka and @MrSedgewick for their responses. Cleanly organized and well thought out posts - especially from our newer players - really help us direct our efforts.
You must cyst to drop a structure on the infestation.
After removing the requirement:
You may cyst to drop a structure on the infestation.
Random new possibility this opens up because it's no longer restricted:
Gorges are now more important since drifters can only build on infestation, but gorges can build off infestation
What subtle difference will you miss? Kill cysts no longer decays structures? Was that subtle?
I agree with everything except Full sized maps (could just make transparent map mod the default), med spam (it's got costs associated with it, so it's an investment), and unrealistic movement mechanics.
I agree that the movement mechanics could always be easier to learn, but I fear removing any depth that they provide or restricting the freedom of movement could diminish that "dance" that occurs in an engagement that is the heart and soul of the gameplay. Maybe just smooth out the animation transitions and then buff the lifeform to account for the fact that they'll be easier to shoot.. just don't limit the speed of change/movement on their screen. (it's already somewhat done like this anyways)
Since the 3rd hive in it's current form is supposed to be a game ender even a marine 3/3 can't hold up against it(hence siege mode). That's why people would concede, because tying marine upgrades to techpoints kills marine survivability and prevents any reasonable chance of comebacks.
It's supposed to be a game ender precisely because Marine tech is untied and therefore very strong even after being beat back to nothing but their base.
Saying that tying tech kills survivability is ignoring how that's not the case for Aliens.
Make the tech viable, then tie it. (Don't have to tie 3/3 either..)
You must cyst to drop a structure on the infestation.
After removing the requirement:
You may cyst to drop a structure on the infestation.
Random new possibility this opens up because it's no longer restricted:
Gorges are now more important since drifters can only build on infestation, but gorges can build off infestation
What subtle difference will you miss? Kill cysts no longer decays structures? Was that subtle?
@mattji104 I don't hate it, but I'm still doubtful. Some Q's.
So if gorges can build off of infest, how do they then drop structures which are normally only able to be dropped by the comm like whips, harvestors, crags, etc? How would this be dealt with?
As far as things I'd miss, I'd say there's not as much I can think of w/ the cysts. But you're not saying remove the cysts entirely? I guess if they're not removed entirely that makes it different.
For little things as power is concerned, the sounding of the alarm, or if a rine is welding it or anything that diminishes their hearing/sight and the opportunities and advantages those make in an ambush. It's not a huge thing, but a little thing. Yeah there will still be things to repair/build but killin power buys time. How much faster paced do we want the game? Or would there be other mechanics introduced to slow it back down?
You seem to think it's easier for 2 gorges or something to sneak in your base and kill the power - yeah it is, but the power node is still in the marine base. Sometimes it's actually easier to hit the command station with a large alien team because you have more surface area to hit it. Those big onos can get in the way. Yes, it's easier to hit a power node on side of a wall than get all the way in the room and hit the command station. That doesn't mean it's a bad thing. Regarding attacking a 2nd marine base, I'm not sure what should be tied to the command station. Maybe ip's wouldn't work in that room but phase gates would still work...not sure.
Power nodes are just 1 thing to hit in a room now. In NS1 - you had the command station (command chair as I still call it). There are still many ways to win on a base rush: rushing obs, phase gate, arms lab, ips, and command station can all be effective depending on the moment. You don't need to have a power function. Again, I'm more against cysts than removing power. I'm just trying to say removing power can also work.
@deck_ So you end up agreeing that it's easier to attack the power node? Which proves my point that it's easier in terms of ending turtles, that's the point I was trying to make. For aliens, especially gorges to be able to hit/bile the chair, the need to expose themselves much more to be able to hit it. Which is why turtles can last so long unless they go for the power, where they don't have to expose themselves as much, and can shut down 3 ips at once instead of biling a group of ips/obs/chair and spreading the damage out over multiple objects, possibly not actually killing any.
It wouldn't make sense IMO to transfer pwr in a room to another structure, especially the CC. Killing the power doesnt prevent the comm from comming, but killing the chair would, but it's a tougher feat to pull off during an end-game turtle. If there's going to even be the concept of power/powering things down as an alien, it makes the most sense to have it as it is - tied to a power node. You sacrifice that you're not costing them any money by not focusing on obs/ips/arms whatever for shutting it all down, though possibly only temporarily. If power goes down in an important room w/ a well defended gate, again you're buying time. Hit the power in base, kill their rts/pgs everywhere else.
I don't know, power and it's functions as they are have been a part of the meta game so long that I would hate to see it removed/cant see what would replace these mechanics. And havent things like cysts and power been implemented to help slow the pace of the game? I hear new ppl and some vets complain enough that games are too fast paced for them to keep up.
Short version: Create a much more robust "rookie mode" that actually simplifies the game immensely but only for rookies. Do not change gameplay at all, just how soon you can access full gameplay.
Long version:
I don't think you need to change cysts and power, as really all new players care about is shooting and biting. New players come at NS2 like a fancy version of Call of Duty. Their first few days are spent just learning to accurately bite something once, or hit a skulk on a wall. The last thing they care about is cysts and power nodes.
Make it so no one can get into the com chair without 100 hours of game play. Period. Don't even get ideas like cysts and upgrades and whatever into the heads of rookies. Let them play a kind of variation where, in rookie mode, all that stuff is basically irrelevant to them. All they need to do is be soldiers for a while.
Make rookie mode more than just "green name". Remove elements from the game for rookies. That's how you'll retain more players. Once you move out of rookie mode, you have access to more things. But for instance, in rookie mode, as a skulk you don't buy upgrades. When the com drops a spur you automatically get celerity. When a com drops a shell you automatically get carapace. When a com drops a veil you automatically get cloak or aura, whichever you think is best. It takes away the "what do I buy? this is so complicated? I hit B? I hit B to upgrade? What is this picture?" phase.
Even using a graduation system, where you are Rookie 1, then Rookie 2, then Rookie 3, then normal player. Maybe at each level of experience you unlock a new lifeform for aliens, or a new technology for marines.
As "Rookie 2" you can now pick which upgrade you get for spurs. "Commander has dropped a spur, you can now choose celerity, or adrenaline." At "Rookie 3" you can unlock regen and aura. Etc.
Make it impossible for rookies to get exos, or jetpacks. Give them something to work towards. "Learn to aim and follow orders, and you will eventually get jetpacks" "Learn to bite power nodes and kill marines, you will eventually get Onos!"
By the time you get to be an onos, you will have learned a lot more about the game. It will have become much more rich and complex because you'll know about things.
This system makes "learning the game" a series of achievements to be unlocked. They are individual challenges you want to unlock because you see these big Onoses and are like "i want that!" But you have to learn the game to get it. And it makes learning the game easy, more fun, and more rewarding. When you graduate from Rookie 3 to full player mode, and you can get Exos and Onos, but you understand infestation, you understand power, you understand listening to the commander, you understand resources, now you're ready to roll.
All kinds of complex game changes aren't really going to make the game more accessible, they're going to make the game dumber. Instead, focus on making the game APPEAR simple to rookies by alloweing them to focus exclusively on the simplest elements until they start to understand more complexity, and they are immersed gradually deeper and deeper into the game.
I do agree that a 5 TP map is ideal for that change, although we've seen this setup before on a map like veil and what happens is that 4th TP becomes a major source of contention between the teams, with ownership going back and forth - so it's not the end of the world. (there's a tournament match that demonstrates this perfectly, i'll see if i can find it)
The game in it's current system is dependent on if the aliens can get the 3rd hive before being locked in by a marine 3/3, having a 2/2 vs hive 2 game will just be a deadlock, and then a landslide when one base finally breaks. Or in a 5techpoint map the marines would quickly lose any chance of a comeback because they'd be locked to 2/2 against a 3rd hive alien team. Since the 3rd hive in it's current form is supposed to be a game ender even a marine 3/3 can't hold up against it(hence siege mode). That's why people would concede, because tying marine upgrades to techpoints kills marine survivability and prevents any reasonable chance of comebacks.
The format should stay and Hive 3 just should have better game ending opportunities, and make the arms lab more punishable by having it's research tied to the structure itself rather than just being unlocked for the rest of the round since aliens already have the equivalent with the upgrade chambers, armslab rushes were a real threat in ns1.
But i do think marines should have a reason to hold more than 1 tech point. Ok dual exos but dual exos rarely come out anyway. Marines seem to act a tech point guardians preventing aliens from controlling them which is strange considering aliens dont use tech.
Upsetting the current balance by switching current tech to multiple tech points would be a disaster, NS2 has proven very hard to balance and any major change like removing powernodes or cysts or shuffling the tech trees is going to be a nightmare to re-balance.
But any future tech added to the game should certainly require multiple tech points.
There were 800,000 people playing DOTA2 and several million playing League of Legends today. Both of these games are far more complicated than NS2. It would be a mistake to think that the game needs to be made simpler to get new players. The complexity of NS2 is what sets it apart from all other first person shooters.
There were 800,000 people playing DOTA2 and several million playing League of Legends today. Both of these games are far more complicated than NS2. It would be a mistake to think that the game needs to be made simpler to get new players. The complexity of NS2 is what sets it apart from all other first person shooters.
Also, I agree with navazka and actually ask real rookies what is most difficult for them.
I think the thing that bothered me most is that as marine, you only get to choose one gun. In most games you get to choose assault/engineer/medic/sniper, each with different weapons. As a rookie you die a lot and lose your shotgun instantly. Maybe an option to chose between and LMG and an SMG (lower damage, higher ammo) at the start of every spawn.
Change "RTV" vote label into "change map" label. I haven't met anybody who knew what RTV stands for (I asked many times), and rookies have a hard time finding vote change map button, even if they arrive into the right menu.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Change the way wall-running works! Take a look at Tremoulus to figure out how it's done right.
If you start crawling on a wall, you stick to it. Regardless of what way you look. It's far easier to navigate a map and it's much less annoying. In NS2 I'm always falling down because of a little bump in the ceiling there or not looking the correct way. Completely annoying and it has no purpose. It doesn't add to the game.
Also reduce the power higher-level things have. Meaning the power/armor a mech-suit has or the ridicoulus big alien thing that can trample stuff in it's path. When I last played (half a year ago, roughly) a game was decided after the first 4 to 8 minutes (well at least if one team didn't make a ridicoulus mistake), because (at least for newbs) it's impossible to bring down an enemy when he is out-teched while you still have only 2 evo-points. And I've been on both sides of this equation.
After the 8 minute mark it's just a slaughter-fest for which ever team has more advantages/tech.
Take a look at games like Savage/Savage 2 if you want to see how this entire leveling/improved classes/items thing is done right (more or less). Even if the enemy team has a hellspawn and 3 Malphais, you can still beat them, it may take some time and they'll destroy half your base but you can beat them and you can still turn the game around.
*edit*
In the few matches I played in this game, it was never possible to turn a game around after it was decided.
Change "RTV" vote label into "change map" label. I haven't met anybody who knew what RTV stands for (I asked many times), and rookies have a hard time finding vote change map button, even if they arrive into the right menu.
True, but stop this "press M and then find some incredibly confusingly named voting option hidden somewhere in a submenu..."-thing, please.
Rookies never connect "Scramble" to equal team vote or "RTV" to change map.
Make it a simple F1=yes F2=no vote.
teaching rookies how to do the current skulk walljump is easy. Yes the jump is not intuitive but they pick it up fast.
True bunnyhop like in ns1 took far longer to learn and was far more unintuitive.
Please never ever make a speed gain like bunnyhop ever again. It was born from a exploit and it was far less intuitive then walljump.
I mean only strafing and jumping to move forward, really? Intuitive?
Bunnyhop in it's ns1 form is fine for intermediate to master level play, we have walljumping for the casual players and rookies but having something with a little more depth besides mashing jump alongside a wall's edge would be good to keep players around who want to 'go to the next level'.
Goldsrc movement was just more satisfying overall.
I have many things to says here but I don't have time right now so I'll just suggest the following.
If you want to know what bothers a noob then just ask a noob !
What UWE can do TODAY :
-Grab some random people in the street
-Ask them if they want to participate to a fun and exciting experiment. In exchange for their cooperation offer them coffee, chocolate, money, sex with Hugh, whatever...
-Put them ALONE in front of a computer with a fresh copy of NS2 installed
-Do not say or explain anything. Just ask them to play.
- Film the screen and the player. Possibly ask the player to say out loud what he/she is thinking when playing.
-Debrief. Ask what they liked, disliked, what they did not understand, etc.
After the player left, watch the videos again.
What the noob did IS the RIGHT thing to do. If what the noob did was inefficient then CHANGE THE GAME accordingly. What a noob does should be efficient (or at least somewhat efficient)
For instance, if the noob runs in a straight line as a skulk and gets raped then change the game so that running in a straight line does not get you raped anymore. I am not saying that running in a straight line as a skulk should make you OP but as least you should not get killed so easily.
Sorry for the bad english.
I need to be nicer to my fellow community members
ritepostedited
What im trying to say is That ibreally thiNk this guy is intelligenT and hes iea is great.
Hello my name is Ian I've played NS2 since it released in Oct 2012 and it has long been one of my favorite games and I was rejoiced to see some attention heading back its way since it could use some love to enhance the general experience for players. especially newer ones who don't understand the balance and suffer immensely from it, I've played mainly RTS games my whole life so my perspective will speak largely as someone who played alot of starcraft 1/2 until falling in love with this game
The main point I would like to bring up that no one else has mentioned has to do with the economy of NS2, I feel this is the #1 balancing point of the game that uses mechanics unseen in other RTS based games. namely how RT count massively inflates income, and the unfair landslide effect this creates between the winning and losing team. In my spoiled post I would like to bring attention to how this affects everyone's Natural Selection experience and how it can be subtly changed to greatly improve the overall experience and yet maintain the tense competitive experience.
*edit took out spoiler cuz no one read it lol*
THE NS2 ECONOMY
So rather than make giant sweeping changes, i think a general adjustment to the most important aspect of NS2 would make a huge, albeit subtle difference: The NS2 economy
In my 1750 hours of NS2 time, the vast majority of my games look like this:
-team sets off to intercept the opposing team
-one side dominates the first 2-3 engagements then transitions into low tier tech that locks down the opposing team to 1-2 RTs and effectively corner the only 2 exits from their main
-then maybe if they're lucky, survive long enough to concede and everyone rages/blames each other or claims STACKED,
(and in many of these games, this is facilitated by 1-2 good rambo players that never needed help to begin with..)
It's the reason i stopped playing vanilla as much because, no matter what I could do as comm, it just didn't matter ultimately or my hands are too tied to support the team and my time would be better spent biting/shooting and letting some noob push S for RT and maybe buy an upgrade a few minutes later
when the team takes these kinds of engagements, their income boosts up by up to 5-6 Rts, whereas the losing team sits with their meager 1-2 Rts, this can be in some scenarios a THREE-FIVE HUNDRED PERCENT difference in income.
and god forbid your team goes down to one Rt which happens far too frequently in this game which is EFFECTIVELY a death SENTENCE
I come from a childhood of starcraft 1-2 and command and conquer, and when the enemy team is ahead of you economically with their extra base expansion or 2 they still at best only have around 200-250% more income, it's advantageous but not to the point i will be able to afford a grotesque amount of tech and units over what my opponent can put out.
Why does no one discuss this point of the game? it's such a huge dealbreaker, When i comm, my apm is useless without income I can't afford to support the team with drifters, I cant med important engagements AND keep my team supplied with upgrades to
scale with higher lifeforms and if they die as fade/onos (if they lived that long) or lose their shotgun it's almost 20-30minutes
to replace that! that's not fun and it's extremely punishing.
There is no other game where global map control in the first 5-7 minutes dictates its outcome.
Map control is advantageous for scouting but not the game winner which is rather always the execution of strategy.
THE SOLUTION is simple, subtle and doesn't require any relearning of the game
-Allow created Techpoints to generate their own income on top of RTs
-reduce extractor/harvester cost to build (by half) and
-downplay the res that they generate perhaps combined with a reduction in build-times/HP
more specifically: one base starts out equal to 2 RTs worth of income,
the first claimed RT brings this to 3 RTs of income, the 2nd claimed maybe 3.5
additional Hive/CC would be worth a normal RT amount, but the RTs themself are scaled down to disable them from giving an unfair immense advantage to one side
so rapidly.
THINK ABOUT IT
This raises the skill FLOOR (not the ceiling) of both comms inherently.
If a losing team is down to their main base within the 7-10minute mark, like they always are,
(AND YES THEY ARE, the whole community can speak for that with our countless playtests) but Is generating income to at least to stay competitive with the enemy, then games can actually explore strategic comm supported pushes, and NOT be solely dependent upon 1-2 players ability to determine
the games outcome be4 the Comms can even formulate and construct a strategy.
alien Kham can actually afford to use their precious drifters after choosing their hive type and use enzyme/halluc/MM
marine Comm can support a little better and still try to get those level 2's out
this would also hopefully give the opposing side a leniency to counter players who can solo the game
and bring back some emphasis into the RTS portion of this game which right now feels so bareboned and simply UNFUN.
I hope this at least intrigues some thought into the #1 most important aspect of the game and its scaling.
and to a lesser degree here are some other points on simplification that don't detract from the nature or depth of the game.
Skulk description
as many people have pointed out, the pivotal most played lifeform is arguable the hardest to master, In my opinion this is due to the hidden walljump mechanic, myself I never knew it had more to it than i orginally perceived. it wasn;t until 400-500 hours of gameplay and a fit of rage that i went online to learn how some people skulked so well and discovered walljumping. You know what might have helped me learn that?
In the B evolve menu when you mouse over the skulk it should simply state something along the lines of
"A simple lifeform that gains momentum by jumping from wall to wall" or surface to surface" I'm sure most of us hardly notice or read those things anymore, but when i was learning the game it would have been nice to have some sort of heads up
Turrets and the Battery
This one is simple,
Untie turrets from the battery (does anyone actually see these in games other than rookie comms???) keep the 3 limit with the laughable dps and do something innovative with the sentry battery and make it into a.......BATTERY!
and by this i mean when power goes out in a room, whatever structures you put next to the battery can remain powered so long as the battery remains alive. This way it is still a weak structure that dies easily with some focus, turrets aren't a non-immersive joke (all you have to do is get behind the turret as if the battery didn't make it counterable enough) , and the fragile strength of the battery keeps it vulnerable to bile and biting, yet when main is rushed, either a few IPs can remain powered or maybe the comm can have a few vital seconds to distress bacon during a rush
Marine should either start with Welder or bring back armor healing
This is a common sense one, no one wants to die in 2 hits, yet if you're playing with noobs, you aren't going to get welded,,,,ever GG
either add a upgrade for individual armories to provide armor healing again, or equip people with the welder so they intuitively think hey I should probably be doing this.. It is the #1 pet peeve i have developed from this game and every time i die with my jetpack shotgun in 2 hits because i couldn't repair enough random structures in time and effortlessly pleaded for someone to heal me, it is so infuriating i have to walk away sometimes lol this is a very harsh mechanic to force on people that just want to shoot aliens. the welding of each other should be a mark of good players not to be enforced on the entire community especially newer player taking in so much all at once that welding their dying teammates is the furthest thing from their mind
The Lighting changes thoughts
as many have stated are vehemently opposed due to it being too different,
HOWEVER, imo the lighting in NS2 is one of the best features in my opinion that rarely get to be experienced as intended, right now you only experience this when main is successfully rushed and marines are about to die or when engaging into a room that has just lost its RT if the aliens made the usually incorrect decision to attack power after getting the RT down.
Fighting from room to room as some of you described sounds more fun and brings in the immersive tense moments I and i'm sure many others love about the game,
I'd really love to see that feeling of engaging into a infested room with damaged power
Vortex for 3 hive Comm
Someone else mentioned this, and it's on siege right now, but all the code for Vortex right now is sadly wasted effort, apparantly people are having issues ending marine turtles? idk last time i had a game like that mineshaft operation/repair room was huge if you guys remember those days lol
but bringing back vortex to infestation under Khammander control and making it cease function when infest is gone seems like a good fit for it. this would enable the comm to echo in his whips into position be4 being immediately arced down forcing the marines to focus fire taking some of the heat off of alien players so they can finish the job. I would suggest it to be a small aoe radius to achieve this, perhaps even only affecting structures/arcs rather than players. just some constructive food for thought since I'm sure whoever worked on vortex is sad to see it gone too.
Double Duration Nanosheild for Structures
idunno not much of a spoiler here lol, sounds like a good idea to me, way too short to be used effectively on structure in current form
anyways if you read through all these ideas thank you very much for your time. regardless of what if any changes go into the game, I'm all for it if it encourages player retention, without crashes or forcing people to relearn the game as they've already invested into it.
This is easily imo the best game I've ever played and I hope the community can further be conducive to positive and FUN changes for the game without needlessly adding to complexity.
Change "RTV" vote label into "change map" label. I haven't met anybody who knew what RTV stands for (I asked many times), and rookies have a hard time finding vote change map button, even if they arrive into the right menu.
Funnily enough it is called change map in vanilla ns2. RTV is a shine thing. That does not make you any less wrong though.
I am a newcomer with about 100 hours played. I remember many things that confused or annoyed me. I wanted to quit the game many times. I persisted and now I'm enjoying the game very much. You're right that in order to retain rookies, you really need to improve the newcomer experience.
For only having 100 hours played, you've done a pretty amazing job summarizing the stuff that should be improved. I pretty much agree with every single point you posted.
For one of the first changes, what does everyone think about the possibility removing cysts? I want to try and push for one change as soon as the opportunity affords itself and I'm trying to think what might be the most interesting/rewarding to try in terms of positively changing the feel of the game.
To go into detail: This would not remove infestation. Only the cyst structure itself and the tedious upkeep (from both teams) that goes into them during the course of a game.
-You would no longer need infestation to drop structures as an alien commander.
-Structures would not automatically grow if they are dropped off-infestation and you'd still require drifters and/or gorges to build them.
-Infestation would spread automatically via an "invisible" cyst chain from the hive to nearby (1 room or so) structures - Infestation would also spread from structures themselves
-Infestation-reliant abilities like Bonewall and Rupture would remain unchanged and usable
This would eliminate:
-The need to constantly fuss over your cyst chain as Kham (and for newer players to figure out the hows and whats of fussing over your cyst chain)
-Having to constantly shoot cysts as marine (and especially in cases where aliens gain a lead and the alien commander starts cyst spamming the map)
-The need for certain map design choices/limitations
There would need to be some minor adjustments to alien RT cost and grow time to accommodate the removal of cysts.
I know this is somewhat of an odd change considering the topic at hand but I do think cysts add an unneeded amount of complexity and the feeling of being a 'chore' to the gameplay (they are tedious for veteran players and 'noob traps' for newer players [on both teams]). This is of course not something that has been confirmed or set in motion or anything of the sort. I am just posing the idea to gauge interest in trying this out.... and should it become a reality I also want to emphasize that of course nothing in the game is permanent. If we were to implement it and it turns out that it doesn't work out the way everyone expected- we'd have the option to revert it (we'd also probably release it as a mod for testing first).
p.s. I want to add that I have already put the alien hive UI status element on my to-do list, so that's something I think that's worth mentioning and will hopefully become a reality at some point (gameplay theorizing aside).
For one of the first changes, what does everyone think about the possibility removing cysts? I want to try and push for one change as soon as the opportunity affords itself and I'm trying to think what might be the most interesting/rewarding to try in terms of positively changing the feel of the game.
To go into detail: This would not remove infestation. Only the cyst structure itself and the tedious upkeep (from both teams) that goes into them during the course of a game.
-You would no longer need infestation to drop structures as an alien commander.
-Structures would not automatically grow if they are dropped off-infestation and you'd still require drifters and/or gorges to build them.
-Infestation would spread automatically via an "invisible" cyst chain from the hive to nearby (1 room or so) structures - Infestation would also spread from structures themselves
-Infestation-reliant abilities like Bonewall and Rupture would remain unchanged and usable
This would eliminate:
-The need to constantly fuss over your cyst chain as Kham (and for newer players to figure out the hows and whats of fussing over your cyst chain)
-Having to constantly shoot cysts as marine (and especially in cases where aliens gain a lead and the alien commander starts cyst spamming the map)
-The need for certain map design choices/limitations
There would need to be some minor adjustments to alien RT cost and grow time to accommodate the removal of cysts.
I really like the idea. I've wanted to see NS2 without cysts. I know some people have concerns about it, but you laid out plans to keep the game-play very similar. There would still be infestation, bone walls would still be effective. You just wouldn't have to worry about cysts on the ground. I think focusing on larger structures for both sides is beneficial. I have heard a concern that people like the idea that if you remove the cysts around a RT, the alien RT loses health. So there would need to be some adjustments like you mentioned.
The alien RT health would have to be play tested to get it similar to how it is now when trying to shoot a couple cysts and then shooting an RT so alien res doesn't die too quickly. I'm not sure how you would keep the same game-play mechanic of alien RT losing health over time when it's de-cysted. I really think that's the only concern with the change, I would rather have cysts removed though. Perhaps you could make alien RT's not be able to regain health from a gorge after being damaged. So let's say a marine team gets an alien RT down to 10 % health. The alien res and health would remain, but could be shot more easily the next time. Or you allow gorges to heal alien RT's, but it takes them a very long time to do so.
I disagree with making them optional. Just have the alien RT's infestation spread a certain distance in all directions of a map halfway to the next RT. I know you wouldn't be able to have infestation where there was no structures, but that's fine - that means aliens don't own that part of the map.
I'm in favour, but it needs to be balanced so it is not just a massive buff for aliens. Their upkeep cost just dropped drastically and the bleeding of structures is removed and I don't think minor adjustments will cover it. It also incentives a commander to get out of hive more often.
You might want to start another thread for discussion so as to not clutter this up?
Comments
The main problem for poor player retention is new players are pitched against players with 1-2000 hours.
No matter how simple you go this problem will remain...
It's almost like new players need a separate game-mode that they can get right into, and not have to wait 10 mins to flash their fade or lose their jp and shotgun in an instant, a game-mode where they can just understand the game.
The number one problem I have in this game and many others have shared with me, is the difficulty... Now I am not saying you need to nerf the game to be easier, games such as Dota 2 and CS:GO have a HUGE player base and are actually very hard to master.
What I am saying is, you need to have an incentive to play the game. Ranks, gun skins, player skins, progression stuff, stuff that makes players stand out for their achievements and shows how badass someone is. People in CSGO play to get ranked up because everyone wants to be a GLOBAL ELITE or have that new shiny gun skin.
You need to reward the player for working so hard. You also need to make sure your ranks work the same as CSGO where the ranking system is based off who is the best and not XP. CSGO uses a system that compares how good you are by comparing you to everyone else and seeing what % you fall in. If your % is in the top 10% or so, then you are a global elite. People want things that are rare.
You also need a matchmaking, currently this game is like Planetside 2 where you just pit players of all skill levels against each other, and that is pretty bad for such a small game. You need RANKS and the ability to separate the SUPER high skilled players from the noobies.
It would also be nice to have a way to limit ping connections to a server (EX: a player has over 130 ping, so he can't join the server) High ping seems to really affect hit detection and where the actual enemy player is. I am constantly getting shot when I am already behind cover, I believe this may be due to high ping players.
Your removal of cysts idea is a great one. Currently the alien side has to do MUCH more than the marines to actually make it anywhere in the game. You could also make it so marines have to run wires and not remove the cysts, that way both teams have the web based resource system.
I will admit as well that your tutorial system is extremely lacking, most alien players have no idea what buildings are the upgrade buildings or what anything does. I believe an in-game tutorial could solve this where a player could go up to a building and click a button and see what it does. Although with most games, the community is the teacher / tutorial; the videos on youtube, the reddit posts, etc. You just need to teach players the basics and make things easier to see.
With all that said, I love this game. This is a dream game to me. I want to invite all my friends to come play, I want to spend thousands of hours playing, I want to buy things like keys to crates to get some new cosmetic that gives me some bling, I want to become good at this game, and I want to see this game SUCCEED!! But GOD DAMMIT!! Could this game use the stuff I mentioned and some real cleaning up. I can't get my friends to play because they see no reason to play such a frustrating and difficult game.
So, I will be keeping track of your plans and development over the next few months and if you do the things I listed and give the game some much needed love and cleaning up, I will be sure to get as many friends and people I can find into the game.
I hope this post helped, thanks for reading it!
- Sam, that one guy that plays NS2
There does need to be a mode where you practice life forms through training exercises, and possibly servers that are high res servers to test out life forms.
First things first:
Now for improved rookie experience (from what I remember, in no particular order):
And some annoyances that I observed:
Other thoughts:
Threw mine into spoilers to make it easier for everyone.
Sound Cues:
Love the idea, but only under specific circumstances, such as:
End Game Tech:
- 3rd hive complete: Map-Wide "Now We Dance" (best audio clip for aliens imo
- W3/A3 and Proto-Tech researched: Map-Wide "Kill 'em all, its the only way to be sure", with banner for all alien players reporting advanced tech is complete.
Other Enemy Tech Milestones:
- Marines:
When a higher life form gets spotted: "We've got a big one", with banner stating type of life form spotted.
*Only when visually spotted, so we dont ruin surprises
- Aliens:
New weapons spotted, new armor or weapons level: "The Intruders Evolve", with banner reporting what new weapons/upgrade has been spotted.
Removing restrictions on gameplay can only be good imo, so not needing power or cysts to build will open new strategies.
Power Node/Cyst suggestions:
When active, the power node will slowy repair the armor only of all structures in the room.
- Health damage on structures can only be repaired by a welder
- Makes power node optional, and useful
-- Add a cost to power nodes and rename to "Nanite Fabricator" to indicate function
- Lights are locked "ON" while power node is active
Possible use for Cysts:
- Bring back player buffs while on infestation, based on hive type (minor hp regen, minor energy regen, muffled movement, )
-- OR - Bring back hivesight
- Buildings have no HP Regen if not cysted
-- Buildings also get buffs based on hive type if connected (faster hp regen, passively cloaked, can be echoed to any location that is cysted)
--- The above would require a change to echo and make it ties to cysted structures
Allow cysts to be built on power node locations to "Lock" lights off (not red)
Adjusting tech to be more user friendly and intuitive is also a great direction to go.
Ability/Tech Changes:
Aliens:
+1 to ranged spores, they will be welcome and needed, but i feel that they would be more useful on hive 2, with a stronger umbra as hive 3 (for really making marines feel hopeless)
Vortex: I may be alone, but phasing out buildings and players was awsome. Make vortex a ranged projectile, that can only affect 1 target.
Stab: remove all movement penalties
Make babblers free (uses energy), have their own weapon slot, and limited in number
Marines:
- Slightly reduced accuracy for rifle (from current), with an "advanced targeting" or "uranium rounds" upgrade for slightly higher accuracy (from current)
- NS1 style hand grenades
-- Marines spawn with a single "base" frag grenade
-- Can purchase the current versions at current prices
- The welder idea is great, most people will already assume the welder is better at building things, since it costs money.
- Allow Exos to buy and equip welders
New Player Improvements for specific "pain-points"
Flash-Lifeforms:
If a player dies as a lifeform, allow that player to evolve to that lifeform again for half cost, and consume all resources above that up to the full cost (basically locks a player into that life form)
Misleading costs:
Nordic's UI change to order of lifeforms seems great, order lifeforms and weapons by killing power, not cost
Global/Regional chat accesable from the main menu and servers where players can interact and work to seed servers together, to reduce time to have an active server
Scripted tutorial game or missions that allow players to see every lifeform and weapon in active and use it themselves.
Changing default keybindings to have as much crossover as possible between the 2 teams will help reduce confusion (i.e. "buy" being B for both teams)
my 2 cents
- Rookie only servers, players with less than '50' hours or 'X' level in hive
- Normal servers that anyone can join, have a disclaimer for people that have less than '50' hours/X level that rookie-only should be recommended, similar to the 24+ notice, might be some overlap between > 24 and rookie players though
- Veteran servers, players who have 'X' level in hive
- Elite servers, players with a certain skill rank or higher
Doesn't matter how simple the game can get, if they're getting destroyed by average players in NS2 standards, they aren't gonna play the game for long. I wouldn't want to go against a masters protoss in SC2 as a bronze terran, it would suck. I feel that this might be a lot of work though but just a recommendation.
Btw, with the above comments, how difficult would it be to implement a kill-cam similar to CoD? I imagine it would be a lot of work at this point but could be a big help for new players.
Please keep the discussion going!
Currently:
You must cyst to drop a structure on the infestation.
After removing the requirement:
You may cyst to drop a structure on the infestation.
Random new possibility this opens up because it's no longer restricted:
Gorges are now more important since drifters can only build on infestation, but gorges can build off infestation
What subtle difference will you miss? Kill cysts no longer decays structures? Was that subtle?
I agree with everything except Full sized maps (could just make transparent map mod the default), med spam (it's got costs associated with it, so it's an investment), and unrealistic movement mechanics.
I agree that the movement mechanics could always be easier to learn, but I fear removing any depth that they provide or restricting the freedom of movement could diminish that "dance" that occurs in an engagement that is the heart and soul of the gameplay. Maybe just smooth out the animation transitions and then buff the lifeform to account for the fact that they'll be easier to shoot.. just don't limit the speed of change/movement on their screen. (it's already somewhat done like this anyways)
Saying that tying tech kills survivability is ignoring how that's not the case for Aliens.
Make the tech viable, then tie it. (Don't have to tie 3/3 either..)
@mattji104 I don't hate it, but I'm still doubtful. Some Q's.
So if gorges can build off of infest, how do they then drop structures which are normally only able to be dropped by the comm like whips, harvestors, crags, etc? How would this be dealt with?
As far as things I'd miss, I'd say there's not as much I can think of w/ the cysts. But you're not saying remove the cysts entirely? I guess if they're not removed entirely that makes it different.
For little things as power is concerned, the sounding of the alarm, or if a rine is welding it or anything that diminishes their hearing/sight and the opportunities and advantages those make in an ambush. It's not a huge thing, but a little thing. Yeah there will still be things to repair/build but killin power buys time. How much faster paced do we want the game? Or would there be other mechanics introduced to slow it back down?
@deck_ So you end up agreeing that it's easier to attack the power node? Which proves my point that it's easier in terms of ending turtles, that's the point I was trying to make. For aliens, especially gorges to be able to hit/bile the chair, the need to expose themselves much more to be able to hit it. Which is why turtles can last so long unless they go for the power, where they don't have to expose themselves as much, and can shut down 3 ips at once instead of biling a group of ips/obs/chair and spreading the damage out over multiple objects, possibly not actually killing any.
It wouldn't make sense IMO to transfer pwr in a room to another structure, especially the CC. Killing the power doesnt prevent the comm from comming, but killing the chair would, but it's a tougher feat to pull off during an end-game turtle. If there's going to even be the concept of power/powering things down as an alien, it makes the most sense to have it as it is - tied to a power node. You sacrifice that you're not costing them any money by not focusing on obs/ips/arms whatever for shutting it all down, though possibly only temporarily. If power goes down in an important room w/ a well defended gate, again you're buying time. Hit the power in base, kill their rts/pgs everywhere else.
I don't know, power and it's functions as they are have been a part of the meta game so long that I would hate to see it removed/cant see what would replace these mechanics. And havent things like cysts and power been implemented to help slow the pace of the game? I hear new ppl and some vets complain enough that games are too fast paced for them to keep up.
Short version: Create a much more robust "rookie mode" that actually simplifies the game immensely but only for rookies. Do not change gameplay at all, just how soon you can access full gameplay.
Long version:
I don't think you need to change cysts and power, as really all new players care about is shooting and biting. New players come at NS2 like a fancy version of Call of Duty. Their first few days are spent just learning to accurately bite something once, or hit a skulk on a wall. The last thing they care about is cysts and power nodes.
Make it so no one can get into the com chair without 100 hours of game play. Period. Don't even get ideas like cysts and upgrades and whatever into the heads of rookies. Let them play a kind of variation where, in rookie mode, all that stuff is basically irrelevant to them. All they need to do is be soldiers for a while.
Make rookie mode more than just "green name". Remove elements from the game for rookies. That's how you'll retain more players. Once you move out of rookie mode, you have access to more things. But for instance, in rookie mode, as a skulk you don't buy upgrades. When the com drops a spur you automatically get celerity. When a com drops a shell you automatically get carapace. When a com drops a veil you automatically get cloak or aura, whichever you think is best. It takes away the "what do I buy? this is so complicated? I hit B? I hit B to upgrade? What is this picture?" phase.
Even using a graduation system, where you are Rookie 1, then Rookie 2, then Rookie 3, then normal player. Maybe at each level of experience you unlock a new lifeform for aliens, or a new technology for marines.
As "Rookie 2" you can now pick which upgrade you get for spurs. "Commander has dropped a spur, you can now choose celerity, or adrenaline." At "Rookie 3" you can unlock regen and aura. Etc.
Make it impossible for rookies to get exos, or jetpacks. Give them something to work towards. "Learn to aim and follow orders, and you will eventually get jetpacks" "Learn to bite power nodes and kill marines, you will eventually get Onos!"
By the time you get to be an onos, you will have learned a lot more about the game. It will have become much more rich and complex because you'll know about things.
This system makes "learning the game" a series of achievements to be unlocked. They are individual challenges you want to unlock because you see these big Onoses and are like "i want that!" But you have to learn the game to get it. And it makes learning the game easy, more fun, and more rewarding. When you graduate from Rookie 3 to full player mode, and you can get Exos and Onos, but you understand infestation, you understand power, you understand listening to the commander, you understand resources, now you're ready to roll.
All kinds of complex game changes aren't really going to make the game more accessible, they're going to make the game dumber. Instead, focus on making the game APPEAR simple to rookies by alloweing them to focus exclusively on the simplest elements until they start to understand more complexity, and they are immersed gradually deeper and deeper into the game.
But i do think marines should have a reason to hold more than 1 tech point. Ok dual exos but dual exos rarely come out anyway. Marines seem to act a tech point guardians preventing aliens from controlling them which is strange considering aliens dont use tech.
Upsetting the current balance by switching current tech to multiple tech points would be a disaster, NS2 has proven very hard to balance and any major change like removing powernodes or cysts or shuffling the tech trees is going to be a nightmare to re-balance.
But any future tech added to the game should certainly require multiple tech points.
Me confused.
I think the thing that bothered me most is that as marine, you only get to choose one gun. In most games you get to choose assault/engineer/medic/sniper, each with different weapons. As a rookie you die a lot and lose your shotgun instantly. Maybe an option to chose between and LMG and an SMG (lower damage, higher ammo) at the start of every spawn.
If you start crawling on a wall, you stick to it. Regardless of what way you look. It's far easier to navigate a map and it's much less annoying. In NS2 I'm always falling down because of a little bump in the ceiling there or not looking the correct way. Completely annoying and it has no purpose. It doesn't add to the game.
Also reduce the power higher-level things have. Meaning the power/armor a mech-suit has or the ridicoulus big alien thing that can trample stuff in it's path. When I last played (half a year ago, roughly) a game was decided after the first 4 to 8 minutes (well at least if one team didn't make a ridicoulus mistake), because (at least for newbs) it's impossible to bring down an enemy when he is out-teched while you still have only 2 evo-points. And I've been on both sides of this equation.
After the 8 minute mark it's just a slaughter-fest for which ever team has more advantages/tech.
Take a look at games like Savage/Savage 2 if you want to see how this entire leveling/improved classes/items thing is done right (more or less). Even if the enemy team has a hellspawn and 3 Malphais, you can still beat them, it may take some time and they'll destroy half your base but you can beat them and you can still turn the game around.
*edit*
In the few matches I played in this game, it was never possible to turn a game around after it was decided.
True, but stop this "press M and then find some incredibly confusingly named voting option hidden somewhere in a submenu..."-thing, please.
Rookies never connect "Scramble" to equal team vote or "RTV" to change map.
Make it a simple F1=yes F2=no vote.
I need to be nicer to my fellow community members
rite post edited
What im trying to say is That ibreally thiNk this guy is intelligenT and hes iea is great.
The main point I would like to bring up that no one else has mentioned has to do with the economy of NS2, I feel this is the #1 balancing point of the game that uses mechanics unseen in other RTS based games. namely how RT count massively inflates income, and the unfair landslide effect this creates between the winning and losing team. In my spoiled post I would like to bring attention to how this affects everyone's Natural Selection experience and how it can be subtly changed to greatly improve the overall experience and yet maintain the tense competitive experience.
*edit took out spoiler cuz no one read it lol*
THE NS2 ECONOMY
So rather than make giant sweeping changes, i think a general adjustment to the most important aspect of NS2 would make a huge, albeit subtle difference: The NS2 economy
In my 1750 hours of NS2 time, the vast majority of my games look like this:
-team sets off to intercept the opposing team
-one side dominates the first 2-3 engagements then transitions into low tier tech that locks down the opposing team to 1-2 RTs and effectively corner the only 2 exits from their main
-then maybe if they're lucky, survive long enough to concede and everyone rages/blames each other or claims STACKED,
(and in many of these games, this is facilitated by 1-2 good rambo players that never needed help to begin with..)
It's the reason i stopped playing vanilla as much because, no matter what I could do as comm, it just didn't matter ultimately or my hands are too tied to support the team and my time would be better spent biting/shooting and letting some noob push S for RT and maybe buy an upgrade a few minutes later
when the team takes these kinds of engagements, their income boosts up by up to 5-6 Rts, whereas the losing team sits with their meager 1-2 Rts, this can be in some scenarios a THREE-FIVE HUNDRED PERCENT difference in income.
and god forbid your team goes down to one Rt which happens far too frequently in this game which is EFFECTIVELY a death SENTENCE
I come from a childhood of starcraft 1-2 and command and conquer, and when the enemy team is ahead of you economically with their extra base expansion or 2 they still at best only have around 200-250% more income, it's advantageous but not to the point i will be able to afford a grotesque amount of tech and units over what my opponent can put out.
Why does no one discuss this point of the game? it's such a huge dealbreaker, When i comm, my apm is useless without income I can't afford to support the team with drifters, I cant med important engagements AND keep my team supplied with upgrades to
scale with higher lifeforms and if they die as fade/onos (if they lived that long) or lose their shotgun it's almost 20-30minutes
to replace that! that's not fun and it's extremely punishing.
There is no other game where global map control in the first 5-7 minutes dictates its outcome.
Map control is advantageous for scouting but not the game winner which is rather always the execution of strategy.
THE SOLUTION is simple, subtle and doesn't require any relearning of the game
-Allow created Techpoints to generate their own income on top of RTs
-reduce extractor/harvester cost to build (by half) and
-downplay the res that they generate perhaps combined with a reduction in build-times/HP
more specifically: one base starts out equal to 2 RTs worth of income,
the first claimed RT brings this to 3 RTs of income, the 2nd claimed maybe 3.5
additional Hive/CC would be worth a normal RT amount, but the RTs themself are scaled down to disable them from giving an unfair immense advantage to one side
so rapidly.
THINK ABOUT IT
This raises the skill FLOOR (not the ceiling) of both comms inherently.
If a losing team is down to their main base within the 7-10minute mark, like they always are,
(AND YES THEY ARE, the whole community can speak for that with our countless playtests) but Is generating income to at least to stay competitive with the enemy, then games can actually explore strategic comm supported pushes, and NOT be solely dependent upon 1-2 players ability to determine
the games outcome be4 the Comms can even formulate and construct a strategy.
alien Kham can actually afford to use their precious drifters after choosing their hive type and use enzyme/halluc/MM
marine Comm can support a little better and still try to get those level 2's out
this would also hopefully give the opposing side a leniency to counter players who can solo the game
and bring back some emphasis into the RTS portion of this game which right now feels so bareboned and simply UNFUN.
I hope this at least intrigues some thought into the #1 most important aspect of the game and its scaling.
and to a lesser degree here are some other points on simplification that don't detract from the nature or depth of the game.
Skulk description
In the B evolve menu when you mouse over the skulk it should simply state something along the lines of
"A simple lifeform that gains momentum by jumping from wall to wall" or surface to surface" I'm sure most of us hardly notice or read those things anymore, but when i was learning the game it would have been nice to have some sort of heads up
Turrets and the Battery
Untie turrets from the battery (does anyone actually see these in games other than rookie comms???) keep the 3 limit with the laughable dps and do something innovative with the sentry battery and make it into a.......BATTERY!
and by this i mean when power goes out in a room, whatever structures you put next to the battery can remain powered so long as the battery remains alive. This way it is still a weak structure that dies easily with some focus, turrets aren't a non-immersive joke (all you have to do is get behind the turret as if the battery didn't make it counterable enough) , and the fragile strength of the battery keeps it vulnerable to bile and biting, yet when main is rushed, either a few IPs can remain powered or maybe the comm can have a few vital seconds to distress bacon during a rush
Marine should either start with Welder or bring back armor healing
either add a upgrade for individual armories to provide armor healing again, or equip people with the welder so they intuitively think hey I should probably be doing this.. It is the #1 pet peeve i have developed from this game and every time i die with my jetpack shotgun in 2 hits because i couldn't repair enough random structures in time and effortlessly pleaded for someone to heal me, it is so infuriating i have to walk away sometimes lol this is a very harsh mechanic to force on people that just want to shoot aliens. the welding of each other should be a mark of good players not to be enforced on the entire community especially newer player taking in so much all at once that welding their dying teammates is the furthest thing from their mind
The Lighting changes thoughts
HOWEVER, imo the lighting in NS2 is one of the best features in my opinion that rarely get to be experienced as intended, right now you only experience this when main is successfully rushed and marines are about to die or when engaging into a room that has just lost its RT if the aliens made the usually incorrect decision to attack power after getting the RT down.
Fighting from room to room as some of you described sounds more fun and brings in the immersive tense moments I and i'm sure many others love about the game,
I'd really love to see that feeling of engaging into a infested room with damaged power
Vortex for 3 hive Comm
but bringing back vortex to infestation under Khammander control and making it cease function when infest is gone seems like a good fit for it. this would enable the comm to echo in his whips into position be4 being immediately arced down forcing the marines to focus fire taking some of the heat off of alien players so they can finish the job. I would suggest it to be a small aoe radius to achieve this, perhaps even only affecting structures/arcs rather than players. just some constructive food for thought since I'm sure whoever worked on vortex is sad to see it gone too.
Double Duration Nanosheild for Structures
anyways if you read through all these ideas thank you very much for your time. regardless of what if any changes go into the game, I'm all for it if it encourages player retention, without crashes or forcing people to relearn the game as they've already invested into it.
This is easily imo the best game I've ever played and I hope the community can further be conducive to positive and FUN changes for the game without needlessly adding to complexity.
Funnily enough it is called change map in vanilla ns2. RTV is a shine thing. That does not make you any less wrong though.
For only having 100 hours played, you've done a pretty amazing job summarizing the stuff that should be improved. I pretty much agree with every single point you posted.
I hope UWE sees this list.
To go into detail: This would not remove infestation. Only the cyst structure itself and the tedious upkeep (from both teams) that goes into them during the course of a game.
-You would no longer need infestation to drop structures as an alien commander.
-Structures would not automatically grow if they are dropped off-infestation and you'd still require drifters and/or gorges to build them.
-Infestation would spread automatically via an "invisible" cyst chain from the hive to nearby (1 room or so) structures - Infestation would also spread from structures themselves
-Infestation-reliant abilities like Bonewall and Rupture would remain unchanged and usable
This would eliminate:
-The need to constantly fuss over your cyst chain as Kham (and for newer players to figure out the hows and whats of fussing over your cyst chain)
-Having to constantly shoot cysts as marine (and especially in cases where aliens gain a lead and the alien commander starts cyst spamming the map)
-The need for certain map design choices/limitations
There would need to be some minor adjustments to alien RT cost and grow time to accommodate the removal of cysts.
I know this is somewhat of an odd change considering the topic at hand but I do think cysts add an unneeded amount of complexity and the feeling of being a 'chore' to the gameplay (they are tedious for veteran players and 'noob traps' for newer players [on both teams]). This is of course not something that has been confirmed or set in motion or anything of the sort. I am just posing the idea to gauge interest in trying this out.... and should it become a reality I also want to emphasize that of course nothing in the game is permanent. If we were to implement it and it turns out that it doesn't work out the way everyone expected- we'd have the option to revert it (we'd also probably release it as a mod for testing first).
I don't think cysts should be removed though, just optional, to allow bonewalls etc to still be created in more random places with no structures.
I really like the idea. I've wanted to see NS2 without cysts. I know some people have concerns about it, but you laid out plans to keep the game-play very similar. There would still be infestation, bone walls would still be effective. You just wouldn't have to worry about cysts on the ground. I think focusing on larger structures for both sides is beneficial. I have heard a concern that people like the idea that if you remove the cysts around a RT, the alien RT loses health. So there would need to be some adjustments like you mentioned.
The alien RT health would have to be play tested to get it similar to how it is now when trying to shoot a couple cysts and then shooting an RT so alien res doesn't die too quickly. I'm not sure how you would keep the same game-play mechanic of alien RT losing health over time when it's de-cysted. I really think that's the only concern with the change, I would rather have cysts removed though. Perhaps you could make alien RT's not be able to regain health from a gorge after being damaged. So let's say a marine team gets an alien RT down to 10 % health. The alien res and health would remain, but could be shot more easily the next time. Or you allow gorges to heal alien RT's, but it takes them a very long time to do so.
I disagree with making them optional. Just have the alien RT's infestation spread a certain distance in all directions of a map halfway to the next RT. I know you wouldn't be able to have infestation where there was no structures, but that's fine - that means aliens don't own that part of the map.
You might want to start another thread for discussion so as to not clutter this up?