What should be done about the health bar?

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Comments

  • HEllrunner2kHEllrunner2k Join Date: 2013-07-05 Member: 185945Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Yeah... as if ^^ supplying you guys with feedback you then choose to ignore, idk man... got better things to do. And who says the power trip image only applies to remi? You are all guiliy of that one my friend ^^
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    @Aeglos

    I completely understand.. Which is exactly why I explained things instead of pulling the moderator card or being harsh about it.
    I'd hope that informing everyone would be an approach that you'd agree with?

    Lastly, regarding the transparency aspect, there were good reasons for their actions.. and frankly after seeing the reactions in game and in the forums after the blog, I feel like they're vindicated for doing the double blind test as any in-game data would definitely have been skewed.

  • AeglosAeglos Join Date: 2010-04-06 Member: 71189Members
    Its not like I disagree with you entirely, I think the personal attacks on Remi are distasteful, horrible and out of line. Discussion should be centred on the changes. However, Remi has been outspoken in his support for the more controversial changes (HP bars and hitbox), and certainly isn't a bystander as you seem to be implying.


    Regarding the transparency, its really more of a swipe at Hugh. I did acknowledge that it was out of context and all. The circumstances are different, I know that. I'm on the fence on whether it should have been disclosed when the change was made. On the one hand, players may overreact to the change and spoil the data. On the other, its not a fair representation of how players will make decisions, so I'm not sure what the point of it is except to show that marines shoot better when the hitbox is bigger. At some point, the control for placebo is going to render the test irrelevant.
  • remiremi remedy [blu.knight] Join Date: 2003-11-18 Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
    edited August 2016
    Nominous wrote: »
    ...

    Also, health bars seem to be visible behind structures and persist when re-targeting. I don't know if it's a bug or not. The following video contains footage where I feel like health bars gave me an aiming advantage:



    ...

    Thanks for recording this video, and for all your thoughts @Nominous.

    I'm working on a fix for aliens not being able to hide behind entities. I agree it seems very unfair for it to maintain marking in those instances, and was not intentional. This also means players will be able to more effectively hide behind teammates to lose their mark, or be able to fly/run/blink between structures for the same purpose. Maybe that will help with some of the frustration some of you have felt.

    Trello tickets related to this:
  • HEllrunner2kHEllrunner2k Join Date: 2013-07-05 Member: 185945Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    No no... take... em.... out ... it's... a.... bad... idea -.-
  • MoFo1MoFo1 United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members
    No no... take... em.... out ... it's... a.... bad... idea -.-

    Well that clearly ain't happening so the best we can hope for is a proper fix instead of a useless tweak that won't solve the underlying issue.
  • alsteralster Join Date: 2003-08-06 Member: 19124Members
    Hide behind teammates so healthbars don't show? How cowardly.
  • meatmachinemeatmachine South England Join Date: 2013-01-06 Member: 177858Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
    edited August 2016
    The health bar and hitbox changes seriously reek of some short-man syndrome when comparing NS2 to OW.
    I still believe NS2 is the more enjoyable game to learn and play, but I cannot seriously favour NS2 over OW since the start of the year, despite the transparent attempts to make NS2 more OW-like, simply because there are a hundred other reasons OW is a more accessible/playable game, and the changes that have been made in NS2 do not address any of them.
  • lhooqlhooq 666 Join Date: 2016-01-05 Member: 210940Members
    Spoiler
    remi wrote: »
    Nominous wrote: »
    ...

    Also, health bars seem to be visible behind structures and persist when re-targeting. I don't know if it's a bug or not. The following video contains footage where I feel like health bars gave me an aiming advantage:



    ...

    Thanks for recording this video, and for all your thoughts @Nominous.

    I'm working on a fix for aliens not being able to hide behind entities. I agree it seems very unfair for it to maintain marking in those instances, and was not intentional. This also means players will be able to more effectively hide behind teammates to lose their mark, or be able to fly/run/blink between structures for the same purpose. Maybe that will help with some of the frustration some of you have felt.

    Trello tickets related to this:
    Thanks for the tweak. This is what all 19% of us meant by tweaking it.
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
    edited August 2016
    Here's how I would go about the whole ordeal.

    1. Establish a grand, unifying vision/concept of how the game is supposed to be like to attract and retain players. Gather some high level comp players and some of the more reasonable community members to aid in this process. They know how to play the game best. Also get someone from the outside for "consulting" that doesn't come with any baggage in regards to ns2.
    2. Work on this visionary version of ns2. You don't have to do it all in one go, but if changes from that build go live, they should come with big leaps, big changes, and big intervals. The current steady trickle of featurettes that keep the playerbase in a constant state of annoyance really hurts.
    3. Rebrand and relaunch the game. NS2: Special Edition/Director's Cut/Reloaded/The SCC Chronicles/Reborn/Reimagined/Rebuilt/Evolved/Amplified/The Real Deal/Electric Boogaloo 2/The Flamethrower (or all of them). Relaunch it as a separate game on steam and heavily advertise it.

    Right now, there seems to be:
    a) No intention of doing a relaunch or rebrand, just a vague hope that if the game gets better people will magically come back. Spoiler: They won't. NS2 had their chance with them and it missed it. You need a "new" game to catch their attention. A significantly improved game. (Granted, maybe there is a plan like that, but no dev ever mentioned it, and right now it doesn't look like you're on a good way with it.)
    b) A steady trickle of featurettes (and counter featurettes!) that constantly annoy the existing playerbase. Pro tip in business*: Don't keep your customers in a state of constant annoyance. They are much better at coping with big changes every few months. I get that ns2 balance is very delicate and some counter patches will probably be needed, but that's far from impossible. Other games do it, too. (Best reason to do anything.) Remember: There's only so much a person can be upset at a time. You want to keep the general upsetness low with occasional spikes if you can't have it any other way. Right now you're doing the opposite.
    c) NO VISION! This is by far the worst point. There seems to be no vision, no concept, no overarching "ideal ns2" you guys are working towards. No plan. If there is one, it doesn't show at all. Just small parts that point in the same general direction, but that do not form anything whole.

    This got longer than I intended it to. Maybe I should start one of those "Hey devs listen to me" threads.
    But seriously. Turn this game around.
    edit: Or don't and work on NS3. After all, the game is 4 years old. But it looks like you want to turn this game around. It's just not working very well so far.

    *slap me if I go overboard here but someone needs to say it, again and again and again and again
  • Deck_Deck_ Join Date: 2014-07-20 Member: 197526Members
    remi wrote: »

    Thanks for recording this video, and for all your thoughts @Nominous.

    I'm working on a fix for aliens not being able to hide behind entities. I agree it seems very unfair for it to maintain marking in those instances, and was not intentional. This also means players will be able to more effectively hide behind teammates to lose their mark, or be able to fly/run/blink between structures for the same purpose. Maybe that will help with some of the frustration some of you have felt.

    Trello tickets related to this:


    Btw, not sure if you have talked about this, but you can also see the health bar in the dark. So let's say you started shooting an alien before the power went out, you should lose track of the alien but you can still see the health bar.
  • HandschuhHandschuh Join Date: 2005-03-08 Member: 44338Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Community Developer
    remi wrote: »

    Thanks for recording this video, and for all your thoughts @Nominous.

    I'm working on a fix for aliens not being able to hide behind entities. I agree it seems very unfair for it to maintain marking in those instances, and was not intentional. This also means players will be able to more effectively hide behind teammates to lose their mark, or be able to fly/run/blink between structures for the same purpose. Maybe that will help with some of the frustration some of you have felt.

    Trello tickets related to this:
    There is also the Issue that I can easily distinguish between Spawning Eggs and Evolving Eggs... that makes Spawncamping even worse! Especially against Rookies / New Players!

  • remiremi remedy [blu.knight] Join Date: 2003-11-18 Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
    Handschuh wrote: »
    There is also the Issue that I can easily distinguish between Spawning Eggs and Evolving Eggs... that makes Spawncamping even worse! Especially against Rookies / New Players!
    Agreed. That is a more complex thing to fix because there are so many different ways to expose that info. You can also see it on the map and commanders can click on eggs to find them as well.
  • FrozenFrozen New York, NY Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Members, Constellation
    remi wrote: »
    Agreed. That is a more complex thing to fix because there are so many different ways to expose that info. You can also see it on the map and commanders can click on eggs to find them as well.

    I liked how in ns1 eggs meant evolving and not-eggs meant not-evolving
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Members
    mmh requires skill from the commander to do that and skill from the marine to spot the right egg so I dont see any problem with it
  • HEllrunner2kHEllrunner2k Join Date: 2013-07-05 Member: 185945Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    could you look up how many consistent players a server has created? that would be interesting Data.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited August 2016
    could you look up how many consistent players a server has created? that would be interesting Data.
    Would be interesting, but there is not data on that. The most I could tell you is which server has the most games, and some descriptive statistics on those games. Suprisingly, IBIS has been the most played server. (Edit: Surprising to me. I don't know which server I thought would be the most played, but it was not IBIS.)
  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
    You know, the more I play with the thing the more i dislike it. Even as comm.
    Ah well..
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
    Nordic wrote: »
    Suprisingly

    Why is this surprising? What was your expectation? (Wooza's?)
  • AeglosAeglos Join Date: 2010-04-06 Member: 71189Members

    Why is this surprising? What was your expectation? (Wooza's?)

    I'd have expected DMD. They have something like 3 servers that are populated at some times and there's only 1 IBIS server as far as I know.
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
    Aeglos wrote: »

    I'd have expected DMD. They have something like 3 servers that are populated at some times and there's only 1 IBIS server as far as I know.

    Well, he is talking about the single most populated server, i believe.
  • MoFo1MoFo1 United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members
    IBIS is only populated more because it has zero in it 24/7/365 to seed, and people are too lazy to join an empty server.

    I've actually had times where I join IBIS as its being seeded (only populated server) and once it gets full enough someone will suggest a server change and BAM server empty...

    DMD would probably be populated a lot more also if it weren't for their dmd maps (which I actually like most of, but most people seem to hate) and the seemingly redundant/useless mods (rr rave, dmd unstuck, dmd shuffle, etc) as those are always the things I hear people complain about when DMD is suggested...

    Also I miss TF.. Best server ever.
  • AeglosAeglos Join Date: 2010-04-06 Member: 71189Members
    According to our resident horse, if we stopped complaining it means that we have accepted it.

    Hey Iron, how often should we bump threads as a reminder that we care?
  • .trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members
  • SantaClawsSantaClaws Denmark Join Date: 2012-07-31 Member: 154491Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    My position was; remove it in compmod, don't care what happens in pub.

    But maybe there is a compromise. Would it be so terrible, if we kept healthbars on Onos and perhaps fades? But removed them on skulks, lerks and gorges?
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    SantaClaws wrote: »
    My position was; remove it in compmod, don't care what happens in pub.

    But maybe there is a compromise. Would it be so terrible, if we kept healthbars on Onos and perhaps fades? But removed them on skulks, lerks and gorges?

    That would be even worse becasue inconsistent.
  • SantaClawsSantaClaws Denmark Join Date: 2012-07-31 Member: 154491Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited February 2017
    Inconsistent. Such a buzzword. Not only is inconsistency not necessarily bad, in this particular case it isn't actually inconsistent at all. It's a very easily described ruleset, it literally took me one sentence to describe: Only onos and fades have healthbars. It would be consistent within the confines of those rules.

    It's like saying the lerk is "inconsistent", because it flies and non of the other lifeforms do.. What a silly stance to have.
  • BicsumBicsum Join Date: 2012-02-27 Member: 147596Members, Reinforced - Gold
    edited February 2017
    To me, it would feel inconsistent, because I'd expect a healthbar HUD element to work the same on all alien players. There is no logical explanation as to why only onos and fades would have healthbars.

    The only exception would be, if the fade didn't have one, since it's some kind of shadow / ethereal creature, which the marines visor couldn't deal with.

    On topic: I really don't care about the health bars anymore. Mainly because I've disabled them.
    Out of sight, out of mind
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