Do you think any one developer, let alone Remi, puts things into the game willy nilly without any discussion? They do not.
Yes... YES I do!
without propper testing and permission from the community it affects, that's for sure.
there is a reason the DramaLifter (HPbar removal mod) was the most popular mod for weeks.
And now everyone who genuinely cares for the game is asking for it.
At what point is a "francise" public domain and it'S NOT up to you anymore what to do with it? A decade full of Transformers, Turtles, and now Ghostbusters should spark a disscusion how to proceed with a company that lost touch with the fan base and it's soul intend of keeping the francise going is NOT the Art it was but the money it became. the I'd argue 2-3 years in prison for the CEO in question.
Legalize and make the war on drugs (silly) the war on cash grabbers (really needed).
right now there is great power, but no resposibility -.-
Do you think any one developer, let alone Remi, puts things into the game willy nilly without any discussion? They do not.
Yes... YES I do!
without propper testing and permission from the community it affects, that's for sure.
there is a reason the DramaLifter (HPbar removal mod) was the most popular mod for weeks.
At what point is a "francise" public domain and it'S NOT up to you anymore what to do with it? A decade full of Transformers, Turtles, and now Ghostbusters should spark a disscusion how to proceed with a company that lost touch with the fan base and it's soul intend of keeping the francise going is NOT the Art it was but the money it became. the I'd argue 2-3 years in prison for the CEO in question.
Legalize and make the war on drugs (silly) the war on cash grabbers (really needed).
right now there is great power, but no resposibility -.-
Heh, look, he talks like UWE actually owes him anything.
While it's true that it's in their best interest to make reasonable decisions, there's also no reason for this entitled attitude. Public domain... good one.
@F0rdPrefect : UWE does owe us something beside sensible decisions. We have payed for a game that we liked, then they changed it for the worse despite heavy resistance from the community.
I've written an analogy before:
You buy a roadster, use it for 2 years while having tons of fun & ( . Y . ), then the manufacturer calls back the model because a problem had been found. A week later, they send you a family station wagon as a permanent replacement. Both are cars with four wheels with the same name on it, but don't tell me you'd just swallow the swap.
HP bars are the dumbest thing I've EVER seen implemented in the game, not just gameplay-wise, but veteran players also left. And look at the graphs. Does it help player retention? Absolutely bloody not.
I'd be curious how the current devs justify keeping it
Well, technically _they/he/she/it_ is not wrong... just a gargantuan gaping Ahole :]
Evidence should decide whether HP bars stay in or not. And I honestly don't see any of that.
This is a rare occasion I wish I was a US citizen... I'd be suing UWE for fraud and indecent conduct
I don't think it's just remi deciding on this, and that is what worries me even more. All these people they have these "internal discussions" with are seemingly nothing more than a bunch of yes-man, who have obviously never gotten anywhere good enough to understand the impact changes like these actually have, and yet are deciding the future of this game.
Leave it to the modders to fix the damage that's being done, again. But to be honest, at this point I couldn't care any less anymore. Comp is dead, only trolls remain. Game balance is fucked, and simply frustrating to play. And whatever feedback we try to give is a massive waste of effort.
@F0rdPrefect : UWE does owe us something beside sensible decisions. We have payed for a game that we liked, then they changed it for the worse despite heavy resistance from the community.
I've written an analogy before:
You buy a roadster, use it for 2 years while having tons of fun & ( . Y . ), then the manufacturer calls back the model because a problem had been found. A week later, they send you a family station wagon as a permanent replacement. Both are cars with four wheels with the same name on it, but don't tell me you'd just swallow the swap.
HP bars are the dumbest thing I've EVER seen implemented in the game, not just gameplay-wise, but veteran players also left. And look at the graphs. Does it help player retention? Absolutely bloody not.
I'd be curious how the current devs justify keeping it
Yeah... only that's not how software works. Besides, I think it was advertised that the game would keep getting updates from the start. That means you'll have to live with the fact that you might not like some of those updates.
Yeah... only that's not how software works. Besides, I think it was advertised that the game would keep getting updates from the start. That means you'll have to live with the fact that you might not like some of those updates.
Softwares are also a product, you buy them because they appeal to you. And upgrades imply improvement, not this pile of dung what we have atm
Yeah... only that's not how software works. Besides, I think it was advertised that the game would keep getting updates from the start. That means you'll have to live with the fact that you might not like some of those updates.
Softwares are also a product, you buy them because they appeal to you. And upgrades imply improvement, not this pile of dung what we have atm
Not really. Faster loading time? Improved fps? Tutorials? Those were improvements.
Introducing a feature that messes up tactics and atmosphere under the pretense of player retention, while failing to do that? Pile of spacecow manure.
Not really. Faster loading time? Improved fps? Tutorials? Those were improvements.
Introducing a feature that messes up tactics and atmosphere under the pretense of player retention, while failing to do that? Pile of spacecow manure.
Look, I totally agree that there have been a lot of bad changes to the game in the past couple months, but @F0rdPrefect is right in saying that the devs can "mess up" the game if they want to. Of course, it pisses lots of people off and damages their reputation as a team, but it is their responsibility to fail or succeed, no matter what kind of feedback it incites from their customers.
I meant to vote "keep, but tweak" at first. Now I'm leaning toward removing the health bars. @IronHorse sums up the reasons nicely in this doc. He reflects my thoughts that engagements as a marine are more stale now. When your initial bullets (and subsequent health bar) tell you that a higher lifeform is lit, you can be fairly certain whether that alien will die and much of the suspense in previous patches is lost.
As a fade, I need to maximize speed, use complex movement, and plan earlier retreats a lot more often. Even though I always went celerity + carapace before, the other upgrades are even less viable for me due to the increased importance of juking and retreating. By focusing more on juking, I end up missing more swipes and more energy becomes wasted. I see vets of varying skill lose their higher lifeforms more often now since they haven't gotten used to playing more carefully. The skill curve has been effectively raised for aliens.
When you combine bars with enemy names and HP/armor numbers, it results in some sort of red indicator always being visible to marines during a short engagement. Due to the ranged nature of marines, bars are always useful for them. The same cannot be said for most alien lifeforms since they already have alien vision for tracking marines. Bars even become a bit redundant for aliens if they have aura.
Strafe juking as a skulk is now least effective against shotties and wall jumping becomes more predictable, especially when the health bar appears at the apex of your jump. Also, health bars seem to be visible behind structures and persist when re-targeting. I don't know if it's a bug or not. The following video contains footage where I feel like health bars gave me an aiming advantage:
As IronHorse suggests in the doc, I also think that health bars should be limited to Rookie Only servers in order to encourage focusing lifeforms and help train their aim. It should be explicitly stated that the bars are learning tools that won't be available once they grow out of rookie status. Alternatively, the health bar could replace the HP/armor numbers that float above the enemy when you damage them. This ensures that the bar doesn't aid players when re-targeting enemies while letting them easily know remaining enemy HP/armor as long as they're being targeted.
I understand the reasoning behind wanting to implement health bars. They're almost required in Overwatch due to heroes receiving constant healing, Lucio providing overheals, and heroes providing additional shields and armor. Players across the entire skill spectrum would have trouble keeping track of remaining enemy HP without them. The bars are perfectly balanced there due to the symmetrical nature of both teams and the majority of heroes dealing ranged damage. In NS2, however, health bars provide marines much more of an advantage than they do for aliens.
Not really. Faster loading time? Improved fps? Tutorials? Those were improvements.
Introducing a feature that messes up tactics and atmosphere under the pretense of player retention, while failing to do that? Pile of spacecow manure.
I meant to vote "keep, but tweak" at first. Now I'm leaning toward removing the health bars. @IronHorse sums up the reasons nicely in this doc. He reflects my thoughts that engagements as a marine are more stale now. When your initial bullets (and subsequent health bar) tell you that a higher lifeform is lit, you can be fairly certain whether that alien will die and much of the suspense in previous patches is lost.
As a fade, I need to maximize speed, use complex movement, and plan earlier retreats a lot more often. Even though I always went celerity + carapace before, the other upgrades are even less viable for me due to the increased importance of juking and retreating. By focusing more on juking, I end up missing more swipes and more energy becomes wasted. I see vets of varying skill lose their higher lifeforms more often now since they haven't gotten used to playing more carefully. The skill curve has been effectively raised for aliens.
When you combine bars with enemy names and HP/armor numbers, it results in some sort of red indicator always being visible to marines during a short engagement. Due to the ranged nature of marines, bars are always useful for them. The same cannot be said for most alien lifeforms since they already have alien vision for tracking marines. Bars even become a bit redundant for aliens if they have aura.
Strafe juking as a skulk is now least effective against shotties and wall jumping becomes more predictable, especially when the health bar appears at the apex of your jump. Also, health bars seem to be visible behind structures and persist when re-targeting. I don't know if it's a bug or not. The following video contains footage where I feel like health bars gave me an aiming advantage:
As IronHorse suggests in the doc, I also think that health bars should be limited to Rookie Only servers in order to encourage focusing lifeforms and help train their aim. It should be explicitly stated that the bars are learning tools that won't be available once they grow out of rookie status. Alternatively, the health bar could replace the HP/armor numbers that float above the enemy when you damage them. This ensures that the bar doesn't aid players when re-targeting enemies while letting them easily know remaining enemy HP/armor as long as they're being targeted.
I understand the reasoning behind wanting to implement health bars. They're almost required in Overwatch due to heroes receiving constant healing, Lucio providing overheals, and heroes providing additional shields and armor. Players across the entire skill spectrum would have trouble keeping track of remaining enemy HP without them. The bars are perfectly balanced there due to the symmetrical nature of both teams and the majority of heroes dealing ranged damage. In NS2, however, health bars provide marines much more of an advantage than they do for aliens.
Perfectly stated... But sadly it will most likely just go in one ear and out the other...
It's honestly starting to seem like they just don't care...
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited July 2016
Well written @Nominous .. although Idk how you got your hands on that internal chat log.. o.0
Another large difference between Overwatch and NS2 in regards to HP bars is that you can just respawn as any class/lifeform you want at any time. Compare this to waiting 12 minutes to purchase an Onos.
Raising the skill floor to play aliens is the largest detriment, besides removing the fun that comes with the tension of the unknown while "dancing" in combat.
Not really. Faster loading time? Improved fps? Tutorials? Those were improvements. Introducing a feature that messes up tactics and atmosphere under the pretense of player retention, while failing to do that? Pile of spacecow manure.
Even if the health bars are going to stay - which is the response we're getting from the developers - the visual implementation is really, really poor and introduces so many additional downsides. Even if we momentarily ignore the effect that the information has on gameplay, the following remains true:
The bars occlude details when they shouldn't half the time, and they make tracking easier when it needn't be when they're not getting in the way. They're difficult to read (especially for people like me), and they don't aesthetically jive with the existing UI elements. They almost look like they've been lifted from a late 90s or early 00s RTS game. There are so many other ways to implement this data feedback if the developers really are this gung-ho about it, and there hasn't been any indication that those methods are going to be explored (despite the massive outpouring of disagreement evident in this thread). I understand the value of sticking to your guns, but we've reached the point where revisiting the feature is more than prudent.
Comments
We have to equalize the chances, don't you get it? The game is garbage until every match is a draw and everyone has the same stats. GAME LIVES MATTER!
These are great, keep them coming haha
Maybe your getting better 10 minute new player retention but everyone else is leaving.
Yes... YES I do!
without propper testing and permission from the community it affects, that's for sure.
there is a reason the DramaLifter (HPbar removal mod) was the most popular mod for weeks.
And now everyone who genuinely cares for the game is asking for it.
At what point is a "francise" public domain and it'S NOT up to you anymore what to do with it? A decade full of Transformers, Turtles, and now Ghostbusters should spark a disscusion how to proceed with a company that lost touch with the fan base and it's soul intend of keeping the francise going is NOT the Art it was but the money it became. the I'd argue 2-3 years in prison for the CEO in question.
Legalize and make the war on drugs (silly) the war on cash grabbers (really needed).
right now there is great power, but no resposibility -.-
Heh, look, he talks like UWE actually owes him anything.
While it's true that it's in their best interest to make reasonable decisions, there's also no reason for this entitled attitude. Public domain... good one.
The what...?
I've written an analogy before:
You buy a roadster, use it for 2 years while having tons of fun & ( . Y . ), then the manufacturer calls back the model because a problem had been found. A week later, they send you a family station wagon as a permanent replacement. Both are cars with four wheels with the same name on it, but don't tell me you'd just swallow the swap.
HP bars are the dumbest thing I've EVER seen implemented in the game, not just gameplay-wise, but veteran players also left. And look at the graphs. Does it help player retention? Absolutely bloody not.
I'd be curious how the current devs justify keeping it
Their justification.... "Our way is better"
Apparently that's all they need.
Well, technically _they/he/she/it_ is not wrong... just a gargantuan gaping Ahole :]
Evidence should decide whether HP bars stay in or not. And I honestly don't see any of that.
This is a rare occasion I wish I was a US citizen... I'd be suing UWE for fraud and indecent conduct
Leave it to the modders to fix the damage that's being done, again. But to be honest, at this point I couldn't care any less anymore. Comp is dead, only trolls remain. Game balance is fucked, and simply frustrating to play. And whatever feedback we try to give is a massive waste of effort.
Yeah... only that's not how software works. Besides, I think it was advertised that the game would keep getting updates from the start. That means you'll have to live with the fact that you might not like some of those updates.
Softwares are also a product, you buy them because they appeal to you. And upgrades imply improvement, not this pile of dung what we have atm
"Improvement" is subjective.
Introducing a feature that messes up tactics and atmosphere under the pretense of player retention, while failing to do that? Pile of spacecow manure.
Yeah, but... that's just like your opinion, man.
Wut?
I like chocolate icecream. Thats an opinion.
+10 FPS is good.
-30s loading time is good.
Disruption of a fragile system for no obvious reason.
Those are objective statements backed by B&W facts.
I would even stfu and swallow the healthbars if it achieved an increase in player count, but it hasnt.
As a fade, I need to maximize speed, use complex movement, and plan earlier retreats a lot more often. Even though I always went celerity + carapace before, the other upgrades are even less viable for me due to the increased importance of juking and retreating. By focusing more on juking, I end up missing more swipes and more energy becomes wasted. I see vets of varying skill lose their higher lifeforms more often now since they haven't gotten used to playing more carefully. The skill curve has been effectively raised for aliens.
When you combine bars with enemy names and HP/armor numbers, it results in some sort of red indicator always being visible to marines during a short engagement. Due to the ranged nature of marines, bars are always useful for them. The same cannot be said for most alien lifeforms since they already have alien vision for tracking marines. Bars even become a bit redundant for aliens if they have aura.
Strafe juking as a skulk is now least effective against shotties and wall jumping becomes more predictable, especially when the health bar appears at the apex of your jump. Also, health bars seem to be visible behind structures and persist when re-targeting. I don't know if it's a bug or not. The following video contains footage where I feel like health bars gave me an aiming advantage:
As IronHorse suggests in the doc, I also think that health bars should be limited to Rookie Only servers in order to encourage focusing lifeforms and help train their aim. It should be explicitly stated that the bars are learning tools that won't be available once they grow out of rookie status. Alternatively, the health bar could replace the HP/armor numbers that float above the enemy when you damage them. This ensures that the bar doesn't aid players when re-targeting enemies while letting them easily know remaining enemy HP/armor as long as they're being targeted.
I understand the reasoning behind wanting to implement health bars. They're almost required in Overwatch due to heroes receiving constant healing, Lucio providing overheals, and heroes providing additional shields and armor. Players across the entire skill spectrum would have trouble keeping track of remaining enemy HP without them. The bars are perfectly balanced there due to the symmetrical nature of both teams and the majority of heroes dealing ranged damage. In NS2, however, health bars provide marines much more of an advantage than they do for aliens.
Yup. Those are objective. However, these:
Are not objective.
Perfectly stated... But sadly it will most likely just go in one ear and out the other...
It's honestly starting to seem like they just don't care...
Another large difference between Overwatch and NS2 in regards to HP bars is that you can just respawn as any class/lifeform you want at any time. Compare this to waiting 12 minutes to purchase an Onos.
Raising the skill floor to play aliens is the largest detriment, besides removing the fun that comes with the tension of the unknown while "dancing" in combat.
Talk about shooting yourself in the foot...
*sigh*
Let me clarify. I highlighted the part that's not objective.
The bars occlude details when they shouldn't half the time, and they make tracking easier when it needn't be when they're not getting in the way. They're difficult to read (especially for people like me), and they don't aesthetically jive with the existing UI elements. They almost look like they've been lifted from a late 90s or early 00s RTS game. There are so many other ways to implement this data feedback if the developers really are this gung-ho about it, and there hasn't been any indication that those methods are going to be explored (despite the massive outpouring of disagreement evident in this thread). I understand the value of sticking to your guns, but we've reached the point where revisiting the feature is more than prudent.