I Believe
netfool7
Join Date: 2002-11-04 Member: 6924Members
Join Date: 2002-11-04 Member: 6924Members
<div class="IPBDescription">A simple show of hands</div>
I believe Defense > Movement > Sensory is not the only way to play & win as Aliens.
I believe that there are other chambers orders that are just as effective, if not more.
I believe the styles of play change with each order, and I accept that.
Signed,
The Below -
ME.....
I believe Defense > Movement > Sensory is not the only way to play & win as Aliens.
I believe that there are other chambers orders that are just as effective, if not more.
I believe the styles of play change with each order, and I accept that.
Signed,
The Below -
ME.....
Comments
Just last night I was pwning with massive amounts of sensory chambers on every rafter and in every corner. Stalking has never been easier!
BTW: I believe in Sensory > Defense > Movement. Nothing like hanging around inside the marine base chuckling like a maniac.
I'm fine with going outside the typical order, but if a gorge doesn't want some screaming aliens on his hands then he should explain what he's doing and/or get permission from his team to do so.
BTW: I believe in Sensory > Defense > Movement. Nothing like hanging around inside the marine base chuckling like a maniac.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah, cause being fade is so good if u have defence and sensory. (not)
what is a fade and a lerk without adrenalin? NOTHING
sensory is always last...
Defence no1 or no2 just because of their possability to heal other units and structures...
Movement no1 or no2 cause adrenalin cant be chosen away.. If it is no1 celerity is a good option as a skulk.
Sensory and Movement dont work together
"WOHOW im cloaked, now im gonna stand here and look at my full energy bar" 30 seconds later: "omg he killed me, with 29 lmg shots!! wtf?" Carapace is like Adrenalin, A MUST!
I'm sure this will change dramatically when Flayra tweaks the upgrades. (and he is... *wishes it*.. lol)
I'm sure this will change dramatically when Flayra tweaks the upgrades. (and he is... *wishes it*.. lol)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
so u will "wait" the marines to death?? the buildings to?
Defense>movement>sensory is a good Strat.
I woulden't mind any other strat as long as Defence is the second chamber built, for one reason, you need that armor upgrade.
I think Movement>defense>sensory would be good
I mean Movemet gives you
Adren useful for gorg and Lerk
Silence and Clerity for Skulks
But yea once again, you're gonna need the armor upgrade for skulks and fades(considering the marine upgrade thier armor and weapons)
EXcuse this post if it has bad grammar.. I've been up around 32 hours x.x
I don't mind a gorge who builds sensory first instead of defence BUT they must have given a damn good reason for doing so that has persuaded the whole team that its the right thing to do. When a gorge unilaterately builds an upgrade that they want and which the rest of the team does not then I have a problem. When a gorge builds sensory after defence because "cloak is neat" when as gorge they'll never need it is the most annoying thing about the game in that a gorge can really screw things up for the rest of the team.
So to summarise, the gorge should build what the team needs NOT what the gorge wants.
Once I was playing as an alien, we got the 2nd hive, and we had better positions that the marines.
A noob corge came and built a sensory chamber, we were unable to fire more than 3 acid rockets in a short time and we lost...
Movement chambers should always be built when you have two hives, no matter if you build them in the first or second place.
BTW: I believe in Sensory > Defense > Movement. Nothing like hanging around inside the marine base chuckling like a maniac.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
YEAH problem is then marines are allowed to expand rapidly and secure a hive without much problems since skulks couldnt keep up harassing marines spawn early in the game...
you wont kill marines chukling in their base carapaced skulks will...
this discussion ... again ..
any chamber is just as effective as any other - you just need to adapt your game play. But you guys don't like to try anything new, so I'm honestly not suprised its D>M>S
but .. what ever .. I'm tired of beating a dead horse ... er .. something ..
BTW: I believe in Sensory > Defense > Movement. Nothing like hanging around inside the marine base chuckling like a maniac.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
YEAH problem is then marines are allowed to expand rapidly and secure a hive without much problems since skulks couldnt keep up harassing marines spawn early in the game...
you wont kill marines chukling in their base carapaced skulks will...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just to inform you, I allready had my fair share of wins when we had S > M > D, so don´t say it isn´t possible. And btw the marines I have played against are people I regularly play with. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
The problem is that nobody wants to change a winning combination. Sure, D > M > S is great, but how can you judge any other combination if you NEVER, EVER try it out? And I don´t think that you did try it out even once. You probably just joined the crowd of peoply who are complaining that it sucks, who probably didn´t give it a try as well. But hell, it is the opinion of the mass, so it HAS to be true, right?
My point is: Try to adapt to a new gameplay a couple of times, and if you don´t like it AFTERWARDS you still can go back to your old chamber setup.
Ah well, better stop writing before I get flamed to death. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I believe that there are other chambers orders that are just as effective, if not more.
I believe the styles of play change with each order, and I accept that.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds like ur making ur own Natural Selection version of 'Savage Garden - Affirmation' <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Cloaking CAN and SHOULD be used offensively. Completely cloaked skulks are THE tool to use for containment purposes. Lets face it, at tier 1 (sorry, star/warcraft flashbacks) you're not going to destroy the enemy's base as a skulk.
You can, however, keep those marines so well contained within their base that your gorge is free to roam around as he pleases gathering nodes and getting those other hives up.
An example of which would be on eclipse, having a pair of skulks hanging around on the node in the horseshoe and the other one with the blue column thingys of power, just cloaked, waiting around. By doing this, you can not only ambush marines easily if they try to capture those nodes, but if they don't, you immediately know that they're trying to expand to a hive, and if you have ANY skill whatsoever, killing a few marines you're inches away from without them seeing you is a breeze.
I agree with what previous posters have said though, no one wants to try anything different because its much easier to put their hands against their ears and scream "I can't hear you! I can't hear you!"
These are the same people however who, if they're losing a game, will still keep with their initial course of action and not adapt to new situations, and that game is over before it even started.
And cloaking really limits your movement; if the marines went through station access, they could get to all your hives while you're waiting in Triad Generator Array / South Loop, and your advantage is gone.
but does very little to kill an already built up marine base <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
cloaking helps defence as well, but carapace + def chambers skulls can also defend just as well.
the problem with sensory i believe is midgame, when most of the res spots and hives are taken over, perhaps 1-2 are still empty (and being fought over), and you are trying to actually kill bases, and defend yours.
if someone figures out how to attack bases effectively with sensory, then their might be different chamber build orders <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
personaly I never use cloaking (I can generaly find a spot that marines wont look for/see me in) so I personaly just don't like SCs
A further look at SCs is that their 'ability' is to 'site marines that touch em, I have seen this work so few times mainyl b/c any marine who is stupid enugh to go around a corner or into a door that fast should be skulk food anyway
next up, movement
I can see arguments for this being first, silence, or speed are both wonderful things for a starting skulk
The problem here is that the seconday function (warping) is of no use untill you have a second hive up, so as I said, the upgrades are nice but the 'ability' is not that good
finaly DCs, their upgrades are both nice, carapace or regen (I go for regen b/c if I get hurt taking down that loan marine I might as well go kill my self b/c the next loan marine will probably be able to off me before I can get him)
also carapace is very nice for GORGES, think about it, if they get caught by a marine those few extra bullets just might be enught ot get em back to a DC where they can heall and then off the stupid marine
also the DC ability is healing, this is tied with the MCs warp later on, however early game it is very nice o have, especialy when trying to get up that second hive
see, all of my arguments mainly focus on the ability of the C, not the evolutions
As a side note, another posible path is that of D>S>M, it just requires a much MUCH more cautious containment tactic is all
Also, I am all for containment (I have stoped doing skulk rushes for the most part) I tend to try and get each exit covered and then eat any marines who come out <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
again, I tihnk that good hiding spots are better for containment then cloaking
It all comes down to skulks, which is what you have at the start. Then you compare the chambers, and how they help each skulk.
First off, you have sensory. Sensory does not help the skulk physically, just in the evolutions it gives (and "The Enemy is aproaching!"). Anyways, cloaking allows for skulks to defend positions, but it DOES NOT allow for offense. If you can tell me how sensory chambers help you assault a marine location with turrests, I'd love to hear it. Last, you need 3 sensory in order to make it useful. Your gorge will have to use 30 resources in order to make those chambers... not to mention the time it took to save up that much.
When cloaking, you make a noise, alerting the marines nearby that you have just cloaked. So, you need to cloak ahead of time in order to make effective use of it. Also, you need to be sitting in place for a certain amount of time before marines come through to be chomped. This limits the skulks usefulness, which is the ability to cover the whole map, and defend the whole map with their great speed.
For your gorge, it allows you to go cloaked if a marine comes by, so that's pretty darn good.
second, we have movement. Now it becomes a little more useful. You have adrenaline (not useful to skulks), celerity (quite useful) and silence (really useful). Adrenaline wouldn't be used, but both celerity and silence allow for some tasty chomping goodness.
Silence lets you sneak up on marines and chomp them without them knowing you were there (I'd say this works just as good, if not better than cloak. With cloak, you need to stand still and wait for the right time. With silence, you can always stay a few feet away, just around the corner, and always moving. At the same time, you are just as hidden to the marines). This does not help with assaulting marine strongholds. You unfortunately need 3 movement to be completely silent. That's 42 res.
Celerity works very well for skulks, although maybe not as useful as silence. It helps both in defense and offense, as it makes you hard to hit for both marines and turrets... It also makes you able to cover the entire map alot more easily, but you cannot surprise marines really. They will have a hard time tracking you though, especially with 2 or more skulks.
Now, for the chamber itself, it just isn't useful one bit. You only have one hive, so movement does nothing (no hive to warp to).
Lastly, we have defense chambers. Evolutions are Carapace, regeneration, and redemption.
Carapace is damn useful for skulks, it allows you to take alot more hits. This allows you to close the distance on marines and kill them, it allows you to work on turrets longer, sometimes even allows you to work on a factory while a turret is hitting you occasionally. It is also useful to the gorge, as it allows him to survive more hits and maybe run away long enough to have skulks come and defend him. In the end, the best thing for assaulting is a carapaced skulk, because even a fast skulk will get hit, and it doesn't take much to kill a skulk without carapace.
Regeneration allows skulks to heal while away from a gorge or defense chamber. Usefulness isn't that great, due to the slowness of healing, as well as the sound it makes (alerting marines).
Redemption isn't that great, it can pull you home when you want to get that last chomp in (skulks are usually expendable). It is useful to save the gorge in emergencies.
The chamber itself is the ONLY chamber that is useful in the starting game. It heals anything nearby, which is incredibly useful. A weakened skulk can run back, get healed in seconds, and get back into the assault. It allows for defensive walls that are MUCH more powerful. Offensive chambers on their own can be taken down very easily with LMG's, but pair a few defensive chambers together with the offensive and the marines will have a much harder time, and by the time they get through the place should be crawling with skulks. Defensive chambers are useful with the first chamber.
So, due to these points, I have decided that D is the best for the first hive. After that, we get into fades / lerks, and the arguments are different. But I'll stick to 1 hive debating for now. (That debate shows M over S for two hives)
Ravlen
/me forgot one use of the MCs at the start
if you have them spread out over the map you can VERY quickly get back home if marines are **obscenity** you off (sorta like redemption for a gorge also)
true not that good but I like having all the points out there <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
/meh raises hand
One chamber in the middle of one room is just plain old useless. Getting a large network of sensory chambers in every corridor, up in the rafters, and around blind corners means that most of the marines will spend most of their time on your hivesight (sens chambers "see" like other players, so any marines they can "see" will temporarily show up on the hivesight).
Even if the marines take the time to kill the cheap sens tower, it wont be too hard to put up another one. And while they attack the skulks should all be making bee lines to all the yellow circles. With effective sens placement, you can track squads, take alternate routes to head them off and always have the perfect ambushes set up at the right time.
Though I must admit, sens chambers do ask for a bit more teamwork to make up for the slight lack in staying power in combat. Perhaps a good strat for clans?
Do you just not ever CONSIDER using them in different ways?
Carapace & Adren, a requirement? That's just sheer unwillingness to try. I do great, with Regen & Cloak, killing plenty of marines per spawn, by hitting, running & cloaking for regen. Marines can listen to the noise all they like for all I care, I <b>like</b> them knowing I'm nearby, just not exactly <b>where</b> It slows their advance, which is what being a Skulk is all about! (Yeah yeah, IMO)
As for a Fade, GET OVER your A.Rocket obsession. Use the claws! They're Great! And you scare the marines, which means they tend to screw up their aiming, and please don't reply with the standard "Well, I don't, so you must obviously play with newbs all the time." because it just means
A) You're lying. Everyone panics to some extent
B) I happen to play a lot. Thanks. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Sure, I CAN use Fade with Adren/Cara, but doesn't it get DULL? Wow, I just played the EXACT. SAME. GAME. 30 times over. Whoop-de-frikkin do.
And yes, you CAN offensively use Cloaking. It's a short term bait & lure, where you use a single acid, or let yourself be shot up slightly, then run. 90% of marines DO follow, you cloak around the corner, and wait until AFTER they've run past, and jump behind them (Blinking as necessary)
Skulks can also perform this trick, with 2 skulks. One baits, the other performs the ambush.
Sure, you can get T.Farms with Adren, but you can mostly do this as a skulk anyway, as generally it IS possible to find a location uncovered by the FOV of the turrets. In fact, doing it with claws/Blink/Skulks is actually EASIER, as it takes less time to claw it than it does to acid it to death, with or without adren. These days, I barely use Adren anyway, I'd prefer Celerity or Silence.
Guys, the main difference here is I'm saying YES, DMS is valid, but that doesn't mean any other combination doesn't work, just because you can't handle it playing UT Rocket Launcher style.
Conclusion?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->don't forget that cloaking makes noise, all to often I have heard the *shomm* of an aline, walked out and splatered the bugger<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This means the skulk wasn't being inventive enough in his cloaking location. In general bizarrely, the best place is centre of the room, or on the roof NOT near a doorway. Nobody generally shoots there.
Cloak, really does suck, I go for Silence any day. If sensory is the only option, then I always go for silence.