ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
if I hear the *shoommm* I fill the place with lead (and I generaly have a decent idea, gotta love 3d audio) and when I see that green blood their **obscenity** is mine
also, b/c you obviously did read something you must have seen that many of us layed out very GOOD arguments for why DMS is good, yes DSM also has posibilities but that wasn't the main thing that most ppl are arguing, they are arguing for anything other then DCs first, and thos hasve been the main things we have been defending
personaly I like regen/adren b/c I like my lerks (lerk umbra is next to useless with out adren due to the huge drain, both from flying and umbra, you can't run if a marine knife rushes you like he should)
again all of your arguments were for 2 hive posibilities, and yes SCs can be made of good use for 2nd hive, however the rest of us were simply defending the DCs as first, so please don't make us all out like stuber idiotic tool b/c we already made our well thought out and detailed arguments for why anything other then DCs first realy just aint worth it
I believe... this topic has been discussed to death.
To be quite honest, I don't care that much. Even if it is harder to win with sensory first or whatever, its makes it more interesting and fun to play than just def chambers all the time. And fun is the reason I play.
I'm enjoying the fact that the reply to "why not sensory first" is, "You cannot rox0r teh enemy base with sensory first!"
I mean truthfully though, think about this statement.
Unless the marines' brains are jello...since when do you destroy the enemy base with skulks on tier1?
Sensory first aids you in doing what skulks with 1 hive are meant to do, contain marines.
"But teh carapace is mucho more roxor!" Oh my GOD, I can survive TWO WHOLE MORE HITS with carapace! "Teh healing helps j00 heal!" If you got a decent drop on the marines because you were cloaked, I gurantee the need for healing is drastically reduced. I'm not even going to discuss redemption on that matter.
Lets say for conversations sake you went sensory first, and then movement second. Wow, you've got fades who are both containment beasts (easy to stalk out nodes and destroy any passer-by), AND you've got your precious lil much needed adrenaline (because lets face it, since you obviously think D>M>S is the only way to go, you're certainly not going to experiment with anything other than adrenaline) to help wipe out that enemy base at tier2!
Or the other scenario, you've got sensory first, then defense afterwards. Once again, you're a cloaked guerilla tactic master (if you seem to find it hard to engage a squad of marines, knock off a couple, cloak, then repeat the process, that is a problem with you, not the build order), plus you either have your precious carapace upgrade (which is a LOT more effective on fades and lerks than on your skulks which you seem to think should be base-demolishers at tier1, do the math) OR you have regeneration, which is always useful for cloaked healing when engaging said marine squad.
The bottom line is, instead of criticizing something on the basis of it not being what you're used to, use your head a lil and think about how other tactics can be made to be useful.
For those of you who've simply said "I've posted plenty reasons why D>M>S is THE ONLY way to do it and others have not put sufficient evidence to the contrary therefore I must be right," here is your evidence. If you choose not to see it, then meet in a game some day, and I'll be happy to spank you with it.
Face it DMS is the best way to play and you get the most wins that way. It's not about " OOOoH Lets play alternate routes cause that would BE COOOOOOOLLL" its about wanting to win and not lose, which most people do. if the marines take your third hive which they probably will in the early game you are stuck with sens and move or sens and de, which really sucks and decently upgraded marines will own your undefended fades or no energy fades. Maybe by luck you might win every now and then if you do sens first and have a team you know to be good, but on most pubs this is not the case, and when i command and see the aliens built sens, its over like november, its usually over anyway but this just quickens things.
oh and another thing with early level cloak, all I gotta do as comm is build my observatory and scanner sweep the rooms before the marines go in and poof REVEALED SKULKS I guess the n00b comms you played with never did this, or your little ambushes wouldn't work so well.
And don't forget that having a few key sensories up means you'll be able to butcher the marines long before they get up any kind of turrets and you get to know the amount and choose the angle of attack.
I tested the sensory chambers in lan. Ironically, they do see through walls. The range isn't that massive, about the range of a decently lobbed grenade, but at proper chokes, it is still plenty. The parasite ability is however useless, I don't think anyone is going to support that part of it =D. Sensory gives total map control if used right (through cloak, SoF, and "the enemy is approaching") so even if it takes a little more time to fight back for the 3rd hive...does it really matter? At least now you don't have to worry about them slipping past and sieging one of the hives with your pants down.
Sensory doesn't help much when you're on the verge of losing, that's the only trick. It's weird, everyone raves at the wonders of motion tracking but thinks the sensory chamber ability is "teh sux".
ok, think peacefull thoughts, pink flufy bunnys pink fluffy bunnies ahhh, do not flame the people who just flamed you even though they did not read your posts first, do not flame those that flame first do not flame those that flame first
/me is calm and collected again
now, to shoot down your arguments I shall copy and paste
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->personaly I never use cloaking (I can generaly find a spot that marines wont look for/see me in) so I personaly just don't like SCs A further look at SCs is that their 'ability' is to 'site marines that touch em, I have seen this work so few times mainyl b/c any marine who is stupid enugh to go around a corner or into a door that fast should be skulk food anyway <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
my argument against SCs first lets go over it again
the evolution that every one obses about is cloaking, I personaly don't like it for these reasons: <ul> <li>It makes a loud noise thus telling them I am out side their base thus making them cautious (I like overconfident marines) <li>its effects can be duplicated by finding a good hiding place and then jumping them (this realy is not that hard) </ul>
as for its ability, it can parasite marines that it touches and aparently it also is the source of those obnocious 'the enemy aproaches' msgs, well yah, I tend to have most marines who leave their base parasited and the amount of RPs it would take to make a good matrix of SCs to aleart you of aproachimg marines could also be done with a OC (almost all marines will shoot an OC if they see it, idiots ;D)
now the advantages of DCs at start
Carapace: well if you want those few extra chomps use it (I don't like it)
Iprefer Regeneration: b/c it alows me to keep my containment tactics up for longer (if a marine hears me I will generaly take some DMG and if that happens the next one will probably be able to kill me, even if I have to wate like 5 secs (along time) for him to come out)
ok, so I get an evolution that I like (though rarly use b/c I view skulks as disposable and prefer to save RPs for a lerk when 2nd hive is up or if I find a spikeable TF)
next up DCs ability:
healing, this can do wonders for a gorge, splat one(or more) down behind an OC or 2 and huza instant road block, early warning system, and nice place to retreat to for healing if a marine catches you off guard Carapace for GORGES, it does wonders, those one or 2 more bullets has oft been what has kept me alive long enugh to get back to my DC and work on pissong off and tieing up that silly marine
ok that all for now
oh and one last time, lets see if you can find where the hell I said: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"But teh carapace is mucho more roxor!"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> or <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"Teh healing helps j00 heal!"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I weill be surprised, you will actualy find (if you bothered to read the posts in a thread before you came in and started flaming) that my posts (and many others) were very intelegent (something your flames lacked) and rather well thought out (something all flames are not)
My post was *not* a flame, Go back and read it through.
You'll not only find that it wasn't a flame, but that it was never directed straight at you <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
The problem herein lies in the fact that because you take the rebuttal as a personal attack, you're not willing to read into it.
That's ok though, at least now I know you're not reading it <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
I think sensory chambers are a terrific choice for the #1 upgrade.
Think about it this way. What's a skulk's job in the early game? Keep marines penned up in their base so the gorges have time to either cap nozzles like mad or get the second hive up asap.
Have you ever sat cloaked outside the marine base as a skulk? It's ludicrously easy to get kills on pubs like that. No commanders will follow their troops and scanner pulse for them(that I've encountered). It's simple to just wait and rip apart the whole squad of Marines as one skulk as they walk by you. Most of the time you won't even get hit by 1 bullet.
However the second chamber isn't as easy to pick if you go sensory first. Movement or defense? Do you want carapace or adrenaline? Or does it even really matter since you did such a good job of holing in the Marines and have all three hives?
<!--QuoteBegin--mojojojo+Dec 15 2002, 07:16 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (mojojojo @ Dec 15 2002, 07:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Shouldn't this be in Kharaa strategy anyway?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, i agree here. I can't really make any comment about which upgrade is best as the first one because i always play with gorges that make the defensive chamber first. What i I can say is that since i go with carapace all the time it is pretty easy to kill up to 4 Marines in a tight corner or hallway, not to mention a turret factory surrounded by turrets.
To be more constructive, I do believe that Ravlen had it all right for you, ravlen and destro. I mean, sure, you CAN build other ways, you can do it any way you want. However, assuming you want to win in the most effecient and direct way possible, and as fast as possible, you're only going to be able to do that when your fades and lerks have Defense chambers to heal them and back them up, and Adrenaline to cover their stamina usage. That really doesn't leave room for sensory.
Realistically, for early game containment purposes too, I am pretty sure that with how long it'll take to put up sensory, you will not be able to keep them in the base, and out of a third hive. Especially if the marines are smart and move quick. (Or have a nice observant player that will warn the rest of the team to advance, because they only have sensory.)
Anyway, in conclusion, ofcourse DMS is not the only way to go, I just feel it is the most efficient.
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
though I am choking down urges to smack the people with the "I holyer then though b/c I don't stick with the norm of DMC complex" I will make one more post
I have failed to seen any one actualy post rebutals to my arguments for DCs first (Again I think SC second are a posibility, however I still prefer MCs)
no one has made any rebutal to the fact that containment can be done just as well (if not better) with out cloaking b/c must maps have amazing places for skulks to hide in and be close enugh to invis that it don't matter
persoanly I never evlolve cloaking I prefer the other 2, I use adv hive sight if I plane on attacking a marine base (I can pin point exactly wich structs need to be killed (ie TF/IPs/PG what ever is the most important ATM) Another one is to use scent of fear, it is even better then parasite if you are a lerk or fade, one acid rocket will 'parasite' every one in base (or atleast alot of em)
also scent of fear is perfect for finding that fn tool who is hidding in vents trying to grief us by not ending the game
hmm, SCs as 2nd upgrade could actualy be realy fun (scent of fear and just go through their base killing the week structs ;D)
meh, most marines are now paranoid enugh that if they get spanked by cloaking once they will fire (and often find) when they hear the *shoomm*
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->To be more constructive, I do believe that Ravlen had it all right for you, ravlen and destro. I mean, sure, you CAN build other ways, you can do it any way you want. However, assuming you want to win in the most effecient and direct way possible, and as fast as possible, you're only going to be able to do that when your fades and lerks have Defense chambers to heal them and back them up, and Adrenaline to cover their stamina usage. That really doesn't leave room for sensory.
Realistically, for early game containment purposes too, I am pretty sure that with how long it'll take to put up sensory, you will not be able to keep them in the base, and out of a third hive. Especially if the marines are smart and move quick. (Or have a nice observant player that will warn the rest of the team to advance, because they only have sensory.)
Anyway, in conclusion, ofcourse DMS is not the only way to go, I just feel it is the most efficient. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--xioutlawix+Dec 15 2002, 12:20 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (xioutlawix @ Dec 15 2002, 12:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm enjoying the fact that the reply to "why not sensory first" is, "You cannot rox0r teh enemy base with sensory first!"
"But teh carapace is mucho more roxor!"
Oh my GOD, I can survive TWO WHOLE MORE HITS with carapace!
"Teh healing helps j00 heal!"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Can we stop with the 'charactarizing people with differing opinions as dumb little kids' crap?
So your fading near generator having that hive and ventilation, working on smashing up a marine outpost at stabiltiy monitoring. Suddenly "YOUR HIVE IS UNDERATTACK" and vent hive starts flashing red. Aha but its ok, ill just walk up to the nearest movment chamber and go a whoop those pesky marines, but whats this some retard has made sensory chamber. Wonderful, ill just sit right here cloaked ? no, i know ill blink there fast as houses, ' doh ' - without adren i can blink once every 10 seconds. I think ill just sit right here cloaked and wait for marines to come and seige my last hive, as ventiatlion will be dead by now.
Sensories are sweet if they are used correctly. Let's say that the marines are trying to take a location, you cloak up with 3 other guys, then the marines come in, and...SURPRISE!!
End result: Marines are <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> meatloaf.
Movements are best suited for Lerks. It helps those Lerks shoot off a bunch of spikes, then fly away quickly, without running out of energy.
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
ahh, you could also get those same three skulks too find 3 nice dark spots and TDZAAAA (referance anyone?) meatpopcile
and as for adren, and lerks, personaly I think that a lerk who is spiking should not have to fly (mainly b/c spikes suck as antipersonel and however they are great when combined with flight (to get to ledges) to kill structs
personaly I like adren b/c of umbra (you realy need adren if you wana keep a steady umbra up for your fadeS)
Cloak in a room with three other Skulks...oy. So...instead of actually doing something to stop the Marine advance...you're sitting in a room with three other teammates cloaked...hoping someone happens by? Awesome.
Get inside that Marine base door, distract them. Hit their buildings. Every hit counts until they get Welders. And until they get Welders (which rarely happens early, due to the lack of RPs) you're closer and closer to killing those buildings. And then they have to replace them. Which takes more RPs away from their upgrades that go unhindered if you sit outside their doors, going "Gee I hope someone comes by soon..." and wait for them.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<!--QuoteBegin--Silver Fox+Dec 14 2002, 11:31 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Silver Fox @ Dec 14 2002, 11:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->any chamber is just as effective as any other - you just need to adapt your game play. But you guys don't like to try anything new, so I'm honestly not suprised its D>M>S <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Both defense and movement chambers gives you clear tactical advantages in all situations, both for defense and offense. Sensory gives you only defensive advantages, and only if you are willing to accept strategic disadvantages (ie, you can't move without giving away your ambush position to the motion tracking).
Sure, cloaking is neato - always fun killing marines from ambush. However, if the marines ever manage to break through and get to a siege position outside a hive, how do you intend to kill them? Cloaking them to death? Sniffing them to death by SoF? Piercing them to death using the fabulous Advanced Hive Sight?
Or are you going to fight? Could you - or anyone - tell me of what incredible advantage sensory gives me when I have to attack an enemy in a fortified position? Something comparable to twice the life or twice the firepower, that being what you get from carap and adrenaline.
So far, it seems all the arguments for S first seem to rely on one thing alone. Bad marines. ANY strategy relying on an inferior team means it is an inferior strategy. Plain and simple. If you have to play against weak players to make your strat work, then you might as well not play.
FYI, when I play as a Marine, I let my team and commander (if I'm not comm) know what's going on. When I hear that "shoom" I yell on the mic "They have sensory chamber first. Careful of cloaked skulks". Then my team will be careful... the commander will sweep rooms as the marines advance, when the commander is busy in other areas, we can send in one marine as bait, etc...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Have you ever sat cloaked outside the marine base as a skulk? It's ludicrously easy to get kills on pubs like that. No commanders will follow their troops and scanner pulse for them(that I've encountered). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just pitiful. Thinking your strat is good because of a poor team. Just terrible.
Lastly, I've written a nice long argument about the feasibility of all chambers in this thread, and it got ignored by all but one person (thanks man). Is it because no one wants to touch a non-flame, totally fact driven post? Hrm...
I would like and use cloak a lot more if it didn't make that godawfull SHOOM sound which can be heard from miles away. Anyone with at least <i>stereo</i> sound <i>will</i> have some idea on where you are. If I have to cloak ages before anyone comes, so they won't hear me do it, I'd might as well hide the traditional way.
Why the heck does it make such a mechanical noise anyway ? Aren't the aliens biological ? It's not like they cloak using some weird alien device do they ? I mean, you don't hear a chameleon make weird mechanical sounds when they blend in with the background.
It <i>is</i> fun to cloak in/near a marine base and parasite/spore cloud the crap out of everyone without decloaking though.
-
Anyway, when I'm a gorge, I <i>ask</i> my team which upgrade structure they want me to build next. I think everyone should. It's stupid when a gorge builds upgrade structures without thinking what the <i>team</i> would want.
The most important is and will ever be the Defense Chamber, coz it heals you and your structures. Offense Chambers are worthe nothing without Defense Chambers.
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
see, moves aregument is actualy the best one out there, lol
both of the other Cs have ok or good abilities, however the DCs are realy NEEDED for decent hive defence
yah, I also would like to point out that none of the pro D first arguments have been shot down, yet we have managed to show reasons why anything else first is not nearly as good an idea (and with out flaming)
and yes, for some reason they refuse to read our nice long arguments (yes, Rav's arguemnts were also top notch)
its too bad no one will actualy discuss this instead of flaming us, oh well
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<!--QuoteBegin--Ravlen+Dec 15 2002, 05:03 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ravlen @ Dec 15 2002, 05:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Lastly, I've written a nice long argument about the feasibility of all chambers in this thread, and it got ignored by all but one person (thanks man). Is it because no one wants to touch a non-flame, totally fact driven post? Hrm...
Ravlen<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Pretty much. If you write something noone can pick apart, why would anyone bother to respond? Those that agrees have little to add, and those who disagrees have no valid argument ... and so doesn't respond either.
Writing a good article that gets lots of followups requires you to add some flamebait to the dry facts. It's pretty hard to get it right.
Defense chambers heal Offense chambers, this is why def is first, and why it should always be first.
Watch how a pack of 3 marines gets through 5 offense chambers, or 3 offense chambers and 2 def chambers.
The def chambers are so useful its not even funny, people use them far too little. 1 or 2 def chambers basically turns a pack of small off chambers into something that will now take 3 or 4 marines to get through, intead of 1 guy with a lot of ammo.
Def chambers are our saviors, use them.
Without them aliens defense is quatered in effectiveness against a group of marines.
Without movement fades suck, they NEED adrenaline to combat HA / HMG marines.
Maybe against a bunch of newbies sensory is good first, but not against a competant marine team.
Def is needed for defending structures, and movement is needed second for fades and lerks.
Def > Mov > Sens - against a good marine team is the ONLY option.
Everyone discussing the pros/cons of sensory chambers seem to only be discussing the cloaking upgrade. But what about scent of fear? I personally find this far more useful - one scratch on an enemy, and then you can see his every move around a corner. Makes picking them off beautifully easy as a fade. I'd definitely choose to be a fade with scent of fear rather than cloaking.
I've never really tried enhanced sight though - maybe I should give it another go.
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
actualy I did coment on this BTW use of acv HS: when you arer attacking a base commanderws will oft tryu to hid important structs, so all you have to do is use HS to find em now <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
and as for scent of fear, the best one I did was after using it to kill abunch of marines I then explained what I was doing, the commander kept on droping HP for his marines LOL (for like 1 or 2 points of DGM ;D) was great
this is why I say that SC might be viable as second hive, just not as first
Comments
also, b/c you obviously did read something you must have seen that many of us layed out very GOOD arguments for why DMS is good, yes DSM also has posibilities but that wasn't the main thing that most ppl are arguing, they are arguing for anything other then DCs first, and thos hasve been the main things we have been defending
personaly I like regen/adren b/c I like my lerks (lerk umbra is next to useless with out adren due to the huge drain, both from flying and umbra, you can't run if a marine knife rushes you like he should)
again all of your arguments were for 2 hive posibilities, and yes SCs can be made of good use for 2nd hive, however the rest of us were simply defending the DCs as first, so please don't make us all out like stuber idiotic tool b/c we already made our well thought out and detailed arguments for why anything other then DCs first realy just aint worth it
Thank You
To be quite honest, I don't care that much. Even if it is harder to win with sensory first or whatever, its makes it more interesting and fun to play than just def chambers all the time.
And fun is the reason I play.
Shouldn't this be in Kharaa strategy anyway?
I mean truthfully though, think about this statement.
Unless the marines' brains are jello...since when do you destroy the enemy base with skulks on tier1?
Sensory first aids you in doing what skulks with 1 hive are meant to do, contain marines.
"But teh carapace is mucho more roxor!"
Oh my GOD, I can survive TWO WHOLE MORE HITS with carapace!
"Teh healing helps j00 heal!"
If you got a decent drop on the marines because you were cloaked, I gurantee the need for healing is drastically reduced.
I'm not even going to discuss redemption on that matter.
Lets say for conversations sake you went sensory first, and then movement second.
Wow, you've got fades who are both containment beasts (easy to stalk out nodes and destroy any passer-by), AND you've got your precious lil much needed adrenaline (because lets face it, since you obviously think D>M>S is the only way to go, you're certainly not going to experiment with anything other than adrenaline) to help wipe out that enemy base at tier2!
Or the other scenario, you've got sensory first, then defense afterwards.
Once again, you're a cloaked guerilla tactic master (if you seem to find it hard to engage a squad of marines, knock off a couple, cloak, then repeat the process, that is a problem with you, not the build order), plus you either have your precious carapace upgrade (which is a LOT more effective on fades and lerks than on your skulks which you seem to think should be base-demolishers at tier1, do the math) OR you have regeneration, which is always useful for cloaked healing when engaging said marine squad.
The bottom line is, instead of criticizing something on the basis of it not being what you're used to, use your head a lil and think about how other tactics can be made to be useful.
For those of you who've simply said "I've posted plenty reasons why D>M>S is THE ONLY way to do it and others have not put sufficient evidence to the contrary therefore I must be right," here is your evidence. If you choose not to see it, then meet in a game some day, and I'll be happy to spank you with it.
its about wanting to win and not lose, which most people do. if the marines take your third hive which they probably will in the early game you are stuck with sens and move or sens and de, which really sucks and decently upgraded marines will own your undefended fades or no energy fades.
Maybe by luck you might win every now and then if you do sens first and have a team you know to be good, but on most pubs this is not the case, and when i command and see the aliens built sens, its over like november, its usually over anyway but this just quickens things.
oh and another thing with early level cloak, all I gotta do as comm is build my observatory and scanner sweep the rooms before the marines go in and poof REVEALED SKULKS
I guess the n00b comms you played with never did this, or your little ambushes wouldn't work so well.
I tested the sensory chambers in lan. Ironically, they do see through walls. The range isn't that massive, about the range of a decently lobbed grenade, but at proper chokes, it is still plenty. The parasite ability is however useless, I don't think anyone is going to support that part of it =D. Sensory gives total map control if used right (through cloak, SoF, and "the enemy is approaching") so even if it takes a little more time to fight back for the 3rd hive...does it really matter? At least now you don't have to worry about them slipping past and sieging one of the hives with your pants down.
Sensory doesn't help much when you're on the verge of losing, that's the only trick. It's weird, everyone raves at the wonders of motion tracking but thinks the sensory chamber ability is "teh sux".
ok, think peacefull thoughts, pink flufy bunnys pink fluffy bunnies ahhh, do not flame the people who just flamed you even though they did not read your posts first, do not flame those that flame first do not flame those that flame first
/me is calm and collected again
now, to shoot down your arguments I shall copy and paste
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->personaly I never use cloaking (I can generaly find a spot that marines wont look for/see me in) so I personaly just don't like SCs
A further look at SCs is that their 'ability' is to 'site marines that touch em, I have seen this work so few times mainyl b/c any marine who is stupid enugh to go around a corner or into a door that fast should be skulk food anyway
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my argument against SCs first lets go over it again
the evolution that every one obses about is cloaking, I personaly don't like it for these reasons:
<ul>
<li>It makes a loud noise thus telling them I am out side their base thus making them cautious (I like overconfident marines)
<li>its effects can be duplicated by finding a good hiding place and then jumping them (this realy is not that hard)
</ul>
as for its ability, it can parasite marines that it touches and aparently it also is the source of those obnocious 'the enemy aproaches' msgs, well yah, I tend to have most marines who leave their base parasited and the amount of RPs it would take to make a good matrix of SCs to aleart you of aproachimg marines could also be done with a OC (almost all marines will shoot an OC if they see it, idiots ;D)
now the advantages of DCs at start
Carapace: well if you want those few extra chomps use it (I don't like it)
Iprefer
Regeneration: b/c it alows me to keep my containment tactics up for longer (if a marine hears me I will generaly take some DMG and if that happens the next one will probably be able to kill me, even if I have to wate like 5 secs (along time) for him to come out)
ok, so I get an evolution that I like (though rarly use b/c I view skulks as disposable and prefer to save RPs for a lerk when 2nd hive is up or if I find a spikeable TF)
next up DCs ability:
healing, this can do wonders for a gorge, splat one(or more) down behind an OC or 2 and huza instant road block, early warning system, and nice place to retreat to for healing if a marine catches you off guard
Carapace for GORGES, it does wonders, those one or 2 more bullets has oft been what has kept me alive long enugh to get back to my DC and work on pissong off and tieing up that silly marine
ok that all for now
oh and one last time, lets see if you can find where the hell I said:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"But teh carapace is mucho more roxor!"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
or
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"Teh healing helps j00 heal!"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I weill be surprised, you will actualy find (if you bothered to read the posts in a thread before you came in and started flaming) that my posts (and many others) were very intelegent (something your flames lacked) and rather well thought out (something all flames are not)
hold on... wait.
Hahahahahahahahaha.
Go back and read it through.
You'll not only find that it wasn't a flame, but that it was never directed straight at you <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
The problem herein lies in the fact that because you take the rebuttal as a personal attack, you're not willing to read into it.
That's ok though, at least now I know you're not reading it <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Think about it this way. What's a skulk's job in the early game? Keep marines penned up in their base so the gorges have time to either cap nozzles like mad or get the second hive up asap.
Have you ever sat cloaked outside the marine base as a skulk? It's ludicrously easy to get kills on pubs like that. No commanders will follow their troops and scanner pulse for them(that I've encountered). It's simple to just wait and rip apart the whole squad of Marines as one skulk as they walk by you. Most of the time you won't even get hit by 1 bullet.
However the second chamber isn't as easy to pick if you go sensory first. Movement or defense? Do you want carapace or adrenaline? Or does it even really matter since you did such a good job of holing in the Marines and have all three hives?
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Yeah, i agree here. I can't really make any comment about which upgrade is best as the first one because i always play with gorges that make the defensive chamber first. What i I can say is that since i go with carapace all the time it is pretty easy to kill up to 4 Marines in a tight corner or hallway, not to mention a turret factory surrounded by turrets.
To be more constructive, I do believe that Ravlen had it all right for you, ravlen and destro. I mean, sure, you CAN build other ways, you can do it any way you want. However, assuming you want to win in the most effecient and direct way possible, and as fast as possible, you're only going to be able to do that when your fades and lerks have Defense chambers to heal them and back them up, and Adrenaline to cover their stamina usage. That really doesn't leave room for sensory.
Realistically, for early game containment purposes too, I am pretty sure that with how long it'll take to put up sensory, you will not be able to keep them in the base, and out of a third hive. Especially if the marines are smart and move quick. (Or have a nice observant player that will warn the rest of the team to advance, because they only have sensory.)
Anyway, in conclusion, ofcourse DMS is not the only way to go, I just feel it is the most efficient.
I have failed to seen any one actualy post rebutals to my arguments for DCs first (Again I think SC second are a posibility, however I still prefer MCs)
no one has made any rebutal to the fact that containment can be done just as well (if not better) with out cloaking b/c must maps have amazing places for skulks to hide in and be close enugh to invis that it don't matter
persoanly I never evlolve cloaking I prefer the other 2, I use adv hive sight if I plane on attacking a marine base (I can pin point exactly wich structs need to be killed (ie TF/IPs/PG what ever is the most important ATM) Another one is to use scent of fear, it is even better then parasite if you are a lerk or fade, one acid rocket will 'parasite' every one in base (or atleast alot of em)
also scent of fear is perfect for finding that fn tool who is hidding in vents trying to grief us by not ending the game
hmm, SCs as 2nd upgrade could actualy be realy fun (scent of fear and just go through their base killing the week structs ;D)
meh, most marines are now paranoid enugh that if they get spanked by cloaking once they will fire (and often find) when they hear the *shoomm*
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->To be more constructive, I do believe that Ravlen had it all right for you, ravlen and destro. I mean, sure, you CAN build other ways, you can do it any way you want. However, assuming you want to win in the most effecient and direct way possible, and as fast as possible, you're only going to be able to do that when your fades and lerks have Defense chambers to heal them and back them up, and Adrenaline to cover their stamina usage. That really doesn't leave room for sensory.
Realistically, for early game containment purposes too, I am pretty sure that with how long it'll take to put up sensory, you will not be able to keep them in the base, and out of a third hive. Especially if the marines are smart and move quick. (Or have a nice observant player that will warn the rest of the team to advance, because they only have sensory.)
Anyway, in conclusion, ofcourse DMS is not the only way to go, I just feel it is the most efficient. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yah, what he said
"But teh carapace is mucho more roxor!"
Oh my GOD, I can survive TWO WHOLE MORE HITS with carapace!
"Teh healing helps j00 heal!"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can we stop with the 'charactarizing people with differing opinions as dumb little kids' crap?
End result: Marines are <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> meatloaf.
Movements are best suited for Lerks. It helps those Lerks shoot off a bunch of spikes, then fly away quickly, without running out of energy.
and as for adren, and lerks, personaly I think that a lerk who is spiking should not have to fly (mainly b/c spikes suck as antipersonel and however they are great when combined with flight (to get to ledges) to kill structs
personaly I like adren b/c of umbra (you realy need adren if you wana keep a steady umbra up for your fadeS)
Get inside that Marine base door, distract them. Hit their buildings. Every hit counts until they get Welders. And until they get Welders (which rarely happens early, due to the lack of RPs) you're closer and closer to killing those buildings. And then they have to replace them. Which takes more RPs away from their upgrades that go unhindered if you sit outside their doors, going "Gee I hope someone comes by soon..." and wait for them.
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Both defense and movement chambers gives you clear tactical advantages in all situations, both for defense and offense. Sensory gives you only defensive advantages, and only if you are willing to accept strategic disadvantages (ie, you can't move without giving away your ambush position to the motion tracking).
Sure, cloaking is neato - always fun killing marines from ambush. However, if the marines ever manage to break through and get to a siege position outside a hive, how do you intend to kill them? Cloaking them to death? Sniffing them to death by SoF? Piercing them to death using the fabulous Advanced Hive Sight?
Or are you going to fight? Could you - or anyone - tell me of what incredible advantage sensory gives me when I have to attack an enemy in a fortified position? Something comparable to twice the life or twice the firepower, that being what you get from carap and adrenaline.
FYI, when I play as a Marine, I let my team and commander (if I'm not comm) know what's going on. When I hear that "shoom" I yell on the mic "They have sensory chamber first. Careful of cloaked skulks". Then my team will be careful... the commander will sweep rooms as the marines advance, when the commander is busy in other areas, we can send in one marine as bait, etc...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Have you ever sat cloaked outside the marine base as a skulk? It's ludicrously easy to get kills on pubs like that. No commanders will follow their troops and scanner pulse for them(that I've encountered).
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Just pitiful. Thinking your strat is good because of a poor team. Just terrible.
Lastly, I've written a nice long argument about the feasibility of all chambers in this thread, and it got ignored by all but one person (thanks man). Is it because no one wants to touch a non-flame, totally fact driven post? Hrm...
Ravlen
Why the heck does it make such a mechanical noise anyway ? Aren't the aliens biological ? It's not like they cloak using some weird alien device do they ?
I mean, you don't hear a chameleon make weird mechanical sounds when they blend in with the background.
It <i>is</i> fun to cloak in/near a marine base and parasite/spore cloud the crap out of everyone without decloaking though.
-
Anyway, when I'm a gorge, I <i>ask</i> my team which upgrade structure they want me to build next.
I think everyone should. It's stupid when a gorge builds upgrade structures without thinking what the <i>team</i> would want.
both of the other Cs have ok or good abilities, however the DCs are realy NEEDED for decent hive defence
yah, I also would like to point out that none of the pro D first arguments have been shot down, yet we have managed to show reasons why anything else first is not nearly as good an idea (and with out flaming)
and yes, for some reason they refuse to read our nice long arguments (yes, Rav's arguemnts were also top notch)
its too bad no one will actualy discuss this instead of flaming us, oh well
Lastly, I've written a nice long argument about the feasibility of all chambers in this thread, and it got ignored by all but one person (thanks man). Is it because no one wants to touch a non-flame, totally fact driven post? Hrm...
Ravlen<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pretty much. If you write something noone can pick apart, why would anyone bother to respond? Those that agrees have little to add, and those who disagrees have no valid argument ... and so doesn't respond either.
Writing a good article that gets lots of followups requires you to add some flamebait to the dry facts. It's pretty hard to get it right.
Watch how a pack of 3 marines gets through 5 offense chambers, or 3 offense chambers and 2 def chambers.
The def chambers are so useful its not even funny, people use them far too little. 1 or 2 def chambers basically turns a pack of small off chambers into something that will now take 3 or 4 marines to get through, intead of 1 guy with a lot of ammo.
Def chambers are our saviors, use them.
Without them aliens defense is quatered in effectiveness against a group of marines.
Without movement fades suck, they NEED adrenaline to combat HA / HMG marines.
Maybe against a bunch of newbies sensory is good first, but not against a competant marine team.
Def is needed for defending structures, and movement is needed second for fades and lerks.
Def > Mov > Sens - against a good marine team is the ONLY option.
Happy hunting, Mark
I've never really tried enhanced sight though - maybe I should give it another go.
And cloaking is by far more useful for spying out the enemy.
BTW use of acv HS:
when you arer attacking a base commanderws will oft tryu to hid important structs, so all you have to do is use HS to find em now <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
and as for scent of fear, the best one I did was after using it to kill abunch of marines I then explained what I was doing, the commander kept on droping HP for his marines LOL (for like 1 or 2 points of DGM ;D) was great
this is why I say that SC might be viable as second hive, just not as first