For the last time, it makes it easier because the other people CAN'T SEE YOU! how many times do we need to tell you this? If the marines can't see you, then they can't hit you, then you get the drop on them. Its simple, it works. Now before you post about "but you cant cloak when you move to attack!" Please read what i just typed and ponder it, i know some of you might require more pondering for it to sink in, but please try to do it. This entire thread so far the DMS people have ignored the points that we were trying to make and say something incredibly stupid, have come back with the "Nu-uh", or just blatantly yell "SENSORY IS STUPID SENSORY IS STUPID! *putting hands over ears* I CAN'T HEAR YOU! NYA NYA NYA!"
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Okay, maybe I shall <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
First, I have to say that I DON'T believe really in Sensory as much for a 1st chamber. I'm a little half way in that I believe Defensive is still the best FIRST chamber, simply because it's natural ability (healing) & one in particular or it's upgrades (Cara) are just so good.
So, Def wins for first, by providing two good abilities straight off.
The other two chambers, well, both their abilities are a bit 'meh' at the moment.
'Enemy approaches' - This will improves if/when the dev team make it appear on hivesight for us (preferably in a different colour to red/white/yellow) Then it will actually be a GREAT early warning system, for only 10 rez.
Teleporting to hives - Only useful if carefully built, to allow aliens to move quickly back to hives under attack. Unfortunately, because it's always the furthest hive, it's largely useless as you tend to end up in the wrong place mostly. pfft.
As for the actual abilties, well, I think (althought mostly NO-ONE agrees <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> ) that they're quite similar in usefulness, based on your species.
People cry about Lerks / Fades being useless without Adren, but they both play them in different ways to intention when they do so. Lerks shouldn't NEED to fly continuously ALL the time, only long enough to escape, or on an attack run. Fades, well, Fades need acid to be reduced anyway, as at the moment they are a UT gamer (spam rockets as fast as possible, into every possible spot) and I am a HUGE Fade fan.
Cloak helps both Lerks & Fades equally as much anyway, it's just generally the player that won't accept it. The number of Fades I've seen die miserably to HA/HMG marines, because I'm stood WITH them, and they insist on engaging with their acid spam firefight, while I cloak, wait for them to walk just past & then get two HA/HMG kills, is just silly.
Right, I'm going to stop now, because i'm rambling, and trying to compose a coherant post WHILE working on calls is quite difficult, and I think I'll go mad soon, or tell a customer about how good my Sensory chamber is. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Next post will be about base attacking using sensory though. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
[edit]I'm referring to Crisqo's post, not Shockwave's. Shockwave hadn't posted when I started writing this. Just ot avoid any confusion...[/edit]
*sigh*
Please don't assume that because people disagree with you they are obviously misunderstanding you, because if they understood you they would automatically accept that your ill-supported opinion is fact.
You were asked to show how sensory chamber upgrades are more beneficial in the opening game than defensive chamber upgrades. You have not done so. Instead, you've merely stated that cloaking makes you invisible. You have TOTALLY ignored the numerous posts stating that it has been proven time and time again that you cannot contain a marine team using cloaking\ambushes.
Yes, you can "get the drop" on marines if you use cloaking. You can ALSO do it without cloaking. However, if you are attempting to actually ATTACK the marines, to destroy a vital outpost, <b>CLOAKING WILL NOT HELP YOU!</b>
Now, if anyone can tell me a way in which cloaking CAN help you to attack and destroy marine installations more efficiently than carapace, I'm all ears. And don't assume that because I don't agree with you I don't understand your argument.
Cloaking in the early-game is not very useful, <b>IMO</b>
the early game is all about map control: siezing RTs, keeping the Marines away from any potential hives
This requires aggressive tactics, and being able to hide in a corner waiting for them to come to you isn't capturing RTs, isn't securing Hives
and if you make a defense saying, "I'm killing the enemy before they can build," then it sounds as if you have a quake-ish deathmatch mentality instead of a, "Let's work together, skulks, and secure these 2 RTs and then cover the Gorge trying to build in Ventilation"
cloak just doesn't seem like the best skill for aggressive, offensive style of play so useful (and almost mandatory) in the early-game
PS: Shockwave, very good post, I see the merits of going Sensory earlier...just not as a first chamber
<!--QuoteBegin--Error404:+Dec 30 2002, 05:11 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Error404: @ Dec 30 2002, 05:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sensory, ummm, let me think, as a first chamber, its great for ummm...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> giving marines a spook when you chuckle, cloaked.
<!--QuoteBegin--Vicentegrad II+Jan 4 2003, 12:06 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Vicentegrad II @ Jan 4 2003, 12:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I love Sensory chambers, especially ones built near important highways on a map to provide intelligence, but IMO, going Sensory first just doesn't have the same early game advantages as Defense (carapace) or Movement (Silence, Celerity)
Cloaking? Not aggressive enough when you're trying to secure RTs and all...good mainly for the Gorge Scent of Fear? In the early game it seems that an enemy is either dead or alive...and there are alot more skulks around providing Parasites to track enemies anyway Enhanced Hive Sight? I would say that EHS is better for Lerks/Fades because being able to spot an enemy in the dark makes it easier to fire upon them. having said this, it's not too useful for Skulks.
Say a Marine is in the shadows and you have EHS to spot him, well if you had Carapace it'd be easier to survive the ambush and hopefully kill him, right?
To all you Sensory-First proponents, please tell me this: How do the sensory upgrades make for an easier early game?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> the tip of marines is to deny aliens the chance to get hives and 2-nozzle location, and this includes securing the hives before the aliens can. cloaking will allow aliens to practically sit on top of marines, and they will notice you. well, unless you move(killing your cloak. duh.) or chuckling, which will, spook them out.
and that in a sense, is another tactic. not spooking, distracting. while marines are spraying the area where they think you are, your buddy will be biting their behinds off.
thats how have played before, and prefer.
you have your own opinions though, an i respect that.
but do not be ignorant of other persons opinions, mind.
<!--QuoteBegin--SoulSkorpion+Jan 4 2003, 12:21 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Jan 4 2003, 12:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->[edit]I'm referring to Crisqo's post, not Shockwave's. Shockwave hadn't posted when I started writing this. Just ot avoid any confusion...[/edit]
*sigh*
Please don't assume that because people disagree with you they are obviously misunderstanding you, because if they understood you they would automatically accept that your ill-supported opinion is fact.
You were asked to show how sensory chamber upgrades are more beneficial in the opening game than defensive chamber upgrades. You have not done so. Instead, you've merely stated that cloaking makes you invisible. You have TOTALLY the numerous posts stating that it has been proven time and time again that you cannot contain a marine team using cloaking\ambushes.
Yes, you can "get the drop" on marines if you use cloaking. You can ALSO do it without cloaking. However, if you are attempting to actually ATTACK the marines, to destroy a vital outpost, <b>CLOAKING WILL NOT HELP YOU!</b>
Now, if anyone can tell me a way in which cloaking CAN help you to attack and destroy marine installations more efficiently than carapace, I'm all ears. And don't assume that because I don't agree with you I don't understand your argument.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> the point early on is to prevent the enemy from expanding, isnt it? to prevent them from going out of their base long enough early on wont need carapace for this reason.
1. fools jump in along like some kharaa hero, jumps right into enemy fire. i mean, do you expect all of them to focus on defence while structures remain unbuilt? hell, no. some are building while some defend. swarm in together, thats another point.
2. when you swarm in together, carapace would hardly count anyway. say its a 10 on 10 game. this will leave 10 skulks early on rush, and 9 marines, 1 commander. commander puts in 2 portals. they build, and its done before even the fastest of skulks can reach. then its the TF, since life that can be respawned... is cheap. around this time, the skulks in the base are either chewed cos they moved solo, as i mentioned above, or they allready spooked the hell out of the marines in the scenario i am giving...
4 marines building the armoury and tf simultaniously. (this happenes more often then not, and if you want to argue, this is a SCENARIO.) this leaves 6 marines, oops, did i forget to mention that they need a commander unlike the kharaa? that leaves 5 marines. pretty daunting, considering the fact that they cant aim everywhere at once. by the end of the initial attack, some die, some survive to start attacking the buildings. the 4 i supposedly forgot? well, they are dead. you do your rushes right and the builders wont have time to whip their guns back out.
this can be remedies if the commander is smart enough to place an observatory and spam alerts. of course, after a while, marines will start pouring in through the portals. brag that you can leave a marine a split second to breath the air before you snap his heads of with bite if you must, but sooner or later, skulks will be pushed back. what then? start attacking their base after you were killed? suicidal. by then, defences will be up. what then? run about? make noise? or do you try to ambush them as they undoubtedly start trying to take hives? no, you defend. and so you hug the corner of one room. and get shot by a rather smart person, cocky that aliens ALLWAYS chose defence early on. so maybe you hide above doorways, and let marines walk past, then bite his **obscenity** off? well what if he is just the pointman? what if there are others right behind him, ready to provide cover? you kill the pointman, if youre lucky. the marines will then just pour in and secure that hive. well, get another hive then, simple isnt it? quite, untill they move into your other hive. then what, you do the same thing, attack and attack again. but they still get the hive! why? cos they have teleporters, and they can jump from base to the hive with it! YOU, dont. you only can teleport to hives, with movement. no hive, no teleport. and thats what you were trying to remedy, isnt it?
how to cure it? well, as your local doc might say, prevention is a whole lot better than cure. defend your hives/important locations with cloak. thats the practical way.
cloaking will not help you kill buildings. thats what your teeth are for. cloaking will prevent building, make them nervous enough to start walking in big, huddled groups. seeing them scared like that alone should be tribute enough to anyones' egos, if it wont, them winning the game with sensory first will.
Your *sigh*ing!? why you? i should be the one who does that, seeing as how ive been trying to get my point across again and again and again. Read my last posts about how great sensory first can be...You want proof of how great sensory first is? How can you people NOT remember all the points i made before this? Go back a few pages and refresh yourself... FINE. I'm going to go get a demo of the ownage that ensues after you make a sensory chamber first.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, you can "get the drop" on marines if you use cloaking. You can ALSO do it without cloaking. However, if you are attempting to actually ATTACK the marines, to destroy a vital outpost, CLOAKING WILL NOT HELP YOU!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You only get the drop when your not cloaked if the marines are obviously noobers who dont check ceilings when they enter a new room.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now, if anyone can tell me a way in which cloaking CAN help you to attack and destroy marine installations more efficiently than carapace, I'm all ears. And don't assume that because I don't agree with you I don't understand your argument. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How about killing them before they start? Or if you get there late, do a massive skulk rush and jump around like banshees to make it harder for them to hit you. I am reminded of a post that says "No matter how good the marine's aim is it's the skulks fault for not doing something to make himself harder to hit." So no, you can't come back with the arguement of "I am God! In fact, i'm better then God when it comes to aiming." etc.
welcome to the world of NS, devided on people who play on pubs and with total strangers, and people who play with a group of friends, with regulars.
this is what you get.
well, let them play their way. IMHO, those who get together (or going to, no doubt NS will make it to the WCG.)
well see if those gentlemen(and gentlewomen, for the female folk) start of with the thinking of marines (more armur, more gud! can take mur bites!). sucking in a few more bullets wont help much when the enemy has decent aim. i dont, but i prefer sneaking, ambushing. waiting for the enemy to walk into my claws, and ~CHOMP~
the point of skulks, as i thought i should not be needing to mention, was that skulks are designed for guerilla warfare. that means hit and run, and hit again before the enemy regroups. THIS, will not requite excessive armour, just speed, and the element of surprise.
I dont think you really know how a proper alien game is supposed to be played Crisqo. At the start of the game you have only 1 objective, and it is deceptively simple.
<b>get one other hive</b>
So how do you do this,
<b>it is acheived by preventing the marines building an installation near your current hive or the one you are attempting to hold.</b>
Maybe you think Cloaking helps you do this, but it simply does not, assuming teams of 6v6. Marines first rush 1 hive, and then the one you are probably going for. So your skulks cloak around the hive ready to ' get the drop ' on the marines. Oh but whats this Bling Bling scanner sweep, *bam*bam* , 3 dead skulks phase gate goes up. other 2 skulks covering different routes attack, but oh look no carrapace *bam*bam* chewed in 9 bullets each by decent aim.
Compare that to carapaced skulks possibly near some DC's the marines simply wont have the bullets to take out all the skulks before they run off to heal.
<!--QuoteBegin--rebo+Jan 4 2003, 02:44 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (rebo @ Jan 4 2003, 02:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I dont think you really know how a proper alien game is supposed to be played Crisqo. At the start of the game you have only 1 objective, and it is deceptively simple.
<b>get one other hive</b>
So how do you do this,
<b>it is acheived by preventing the marines building an installation near your current hive or the one you are attempting to hold.</b>
Maybe you think Cloaking helps you do this, but it simply does not, assuming teams of 6v6. Marines first rush 1 hive, and then the one you are probably going for. So your skulks cloak around the hive ready to ' get the drop ' on the marines. Oh but whats this Bling Bling scanner sweep, *bam*bam* , 3 dead skulks phase gate goes up. other 2 skulks covering different routes attack, but oh look no carrapace *bam*bam* chewed in 9 bullets each by decent aim.
Compare that to carapaced skulks possibly near some DC's the marines simply wont have the bullets to take out all the skulks before they run off to heal.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> not trying to be rude, but if skulks huddle so close that it will take only one sweep to reveal them, they they deserve to die.
You guys might think its fun cloaking, camping and dropping on your enemy, but I know loads of players who much prefer to test their skills and reflexes by going head on with marines. Personally I find that more fun.
Either way, you can't say that 'trying a new strategy is more fun' just because you find it fun.
Exactly! Get the other hive! So, while the marines capture their first hive, which they do even if you have carapce, then you get the second hive, like you do in every game.
Cloaking requires that you stand still, that you camp, that you wait for the enemy to come to you
A skulk that is not fighting, moving, scouting, or parasiting is, IMO a useless Skulk
you just can't win a game when you're just sitting and camping, and going Cloak first may or may not allow you to complete your early game objective but Carapace or even Silence/Celerity will do it better (again, IMO)
Offense, Aggression, Attack, Survival: These win the early game
Instead of discussing this, why don't we debate whether Defense/Movement -or- Defense/Sensory is better
<!--QuoteBegin--Crisqo+Jan 4 2003, 03:33 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Crisqo @ Jan 4 2003, 03:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Exactly! Get the other hive! So, while the marines capture their first hive, which they do even if you have carapce, then you get the second hive, like you do in every game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> okay.....and how would Cloaking help more in this situation than Carapace or Celerity/Silence?
defend you arguments, give evidence of such a statement
Fine, i'll explain it to you because you obviously have a hard time thinking if the line "get carapace first then go for the 2nd hive" isnt there. Ok, you start off by selecting which team you want to be on. I usually choose aliens (but thats my personal preference.) Then, when everyone starts to spawn you ask "who will gorge?" someone usualy says "i will", however; if no one does then you say "fine I will gorge." In a few seconds you will hear some sort of timer it will beep 5 times then the game is underway! The skulks usually do a technnique called a "skulk rush" in which the entire team (and sometimes minus the skulk going gorge) rushing the marine base in an attempt to kill all the marines and the spawns they put up. After that and the alien team still hasn't won, then we go on to the "early game" part. In this both teams are fighting over resource nozzles, hives, and sometimes eachother's bases if either team decides to rush again. After the gorge makes 3 or 4 resource nodes the resources should be pouring in so he decides to make a chamber. For the sake of this debate lets say he gets a....sensory chamber (THE N00B!) After the initial shock from the other alien players (that is if the gorge didnt tell them his plans before he put it down) the skulks eventually either A) Cry B) Give up C) Say "Sensory huh? Well lets try it and see where it goes." (a very rare player indeed) After the gorge puts up the three sensory chambers, he then wobbles over to the 2nd hive that hasn't been taken (here comes the tricky part) he then hits and holds the "command menu" button then he moves his mouse over to the right once, then down once, then lets go of the "command menu" button. If done correctly and with 80 resources, and is at the hive location, the hive should appear and then begin to create.
Interesting stuff happening here. I'm glad to see that you guys (mostly) refrained from outright flaming and it's still pretty civil here.
I'm doing a lot of tuning for the alien upgrades for v1.1. One of my goals is to make all the alien upgrades equally viable at all times. I hate to say it, but sensory doesn't seem to be too viable for the early game (as much as I want it to be). The sensory upgrades aren't very good, and the sensory chamber ability isn't very useful.
I'm contemplating making sensory chambers cloak themselves when built, and cloak all nearby players automatically as well...if that doesn't make them more useful, I don't know what will... :)
I'm also changing the sensory upgrades (removing a couple, adding a couple) to try to make them more viable, especially early on.
I asked how would cloaking (and consequently the Sensory chambers) help <i>more</i> with taking a 2nd hive versus going with Defense chambers (with Carapace) or even Movement chambers for Celerity/Silence
<!--QuoteBegin--Flayra+Jan 4 2003, 05:18 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flayra @ Jan 4 2003, 05:18 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm contemplating making sensory chambers cloak themselves when built, and cloak all nearby players automatically as well...if that doesn't make them more useful, I don't know what will... <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Flayra, I think that is an excellent idea! Problem is that sensory might become too popular, and then you'll get threads like 'Fed up of SC/MC/DC try something else'! LOL
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->how would cloaking (and consequently the Sensory chambers) help more with taking a 2nd hive versus going with Defense chambers (with Carapace) or even Movement chambers for Celerity/Silence<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
well it's pretty simple actually because if you go DMS or not the second hive should be empty unless the skulks are doing a terrible job and didnt stall the marines as long as 5 minutes so that the gorge could get to the second hive and put it up.
--Edit--
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think that is an excellent idea! Problem is that sensory might become too popular, and then you'll get threads like 'Fed up of SC/MC/DC try something else'! LOL <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Crisqo+Jan 4 2003, 06:59 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Crisqo @ Jan 4 2003, 06:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->well it's pretty simple actually because if you go DMS or not the second hive should be empty unless the skulks are doing a terrible job and didnt stall the marines as long as 5 minutes so that the gorge could get to the second hive and put it up.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> again you're avoiding the question
"...if you go DMS or not the second hive should be empty..."
so again, you're not telling us how Sensory would make securing a 2nd hive easier than Defense or Movement
so are you trying to tell us that you have no real argument for Sensory-first, just preference?
Now that i shot up that last "point" im raising another...Everyone seems to think when i say "camp" i mean sitting in some remote place and sit there, I don't. By "camp" i mean running around then if you hear marine footsteps you stop, wait for them to pass, then eat.
"...if you go DMS or not the second hive should be empty..."
so again, you're not telling us how Sensory would make securing a 2nd hive easier than Defense or Movement
so are you trying to tell us that you have no real argument for Sensory-first, just preference? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, im saying it doesnt matter what upgrade you have because the second hive is empty, as in there aren't any turrets, there aren't any marines, its just the gorge and his hmaster-like fat. So it doesn't matter, the gorge could be unupgraded at that point BECAUSE THERE IS NOTHING THERE, the marines are off struggling to take the first hive.
I'm a cloak camping **obscenity** when I can. But I still don't like sensory first. Wee. Opinion's a wonderful thing.
Flarya; the idea of sensory's cloaking nearby players and chambers sounds great- probbably need to be a bit more expensive than 10 res if that get's added mind...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->so are you trying to tell us that you have no real argument for Sensory-first, just preference? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly, both chambers can (when played right) get the same desired effect, a win. One chamber, you run straight up and chomp away, while the other chamber you run up to where mareins are, but camp outside and wait for them to come out, then chomp.
--Edit to respons to Vincent's edit--
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> did you change the argument? we were talking about fighting and securing areas in the early game with Sensory-first strategy IIRC, we weren't discussing how little either chamber would matter if you were a Gorge (weren't we talking about Skulks??) making a 2nd hive guh, I don't even wish to discuss this anymore simply because we're not even discussing it<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
..huh? as i recall skulks can't make hives so i started talking about gorges, now im getting yelled at for talking about gorges?
On behalf of the people posting in this thread, thanks for listening Flayra. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Post here any other suggestions of preventing that happening any more and if you don't have any own suggestions comment others suggestions. This Topic must grow big so they will notice this problem and do somthing. Remember that suggestions must be easy to carry out and they may not affect too much for balance of game.
Thanks For Your Attention! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think Itha (the original poster) got his wish, didn't he now? We even got the creator's attention. - So Itha, if you're out there still and following this, what do you have to say about all of this mayhem?
Crisqo, you are one funny dood! Flayra, one of the NS developers has already admitted that... <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I hate to say it, but sensory doesn't seem to be too viable for the early game (as much as I want it to be). The sensory upgrades aren't very good, and the sensory chamber ability isn't very useful. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you can provide a strategy for using Sensory in the early game I would like to hear it, maybe there is something I haven't yet tried. So far, you've only been stating the tactics, which is not really a strategy.
You could be writing stuff like, where do you cloak? above doorways or on top of a hive? inside the marine base? All you've been posting is stuff like, 'sensory is good because you can be invisible and nobody can see you'. To be honest, you ain't gonna get much respect for your cause if you don't have anything worthwhile reading.
Comments
First, I have to say that I DON'T believe really in Sensory as much for a 1st chamber. I'm a little half way in that I believe Defensive is still the best FIRST chamber, simply because it's natural ability (healing) & one in particular or it's upgrades (Cara) are just so good.
So, Def wins for first, by providing two good abilities straight off.
The other two chambers, well, both their abilities are a bit 'meh' at the moment.
'Enemy approaches' - This will improves if/when the dev team make it appear on hivesight for us (preferably in a different colour to red/white/yellow) Then it will actually be a GREAT early warning system, for only 10 rez.
Teleporting to hives - Only useful if carefully built, to allow aliens to move quickly back to hives under attack. Unfortunately, because it's always the furthest hive, it's largely useless as you tend to end up in the wrong place mostly. pfft.
As for the actual abilties, well, I think (althought mostly NO-ONE agrees <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> ) that they're quite similar in usefulness, based on your species.
People cry about Lerks / Fades being useless without Adren, but they both play them in different ways to intention when they do so. Lerks shouldn't NEED to fly continuously ALL the time, only long enough to escape, or on an attack run. Fades, well, Fades need acid to be reduced anyway, as at the moment they are a UT gamer (spam rockets as fast as possible, into every possible spot) and I am a HUGE Fade fan.
Cloak helps both Lerks & Fades equally as much anyway, it's just generally the player that won't accept it. The number of Fades I've seen die miserably to HA/HMG marines, because I'm stood WITH them, and they insist on engaging with their acid spam firefight, while I cloak, wait for them to walk just past & then get two HA/HMG kills, is just silly.
Right, I'm going to stop now, because i'm rambling, and trying to compose a coherant post WHILE working on calls is quite difficult, and I think I'll go mad soon, or tell a customer about how good my Sensory chamber is. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Next post will be about base attacking using sensory though. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
*sigh*
Please don't assume that because people disagree with you they are obviously misunderstanding you, because if they understood you they would automatically accept that your ill-supported opinion is fact.
You were asked to show how sensory chamber upgrades are more beneficial in the opening game than defensive chamber upgrades. You have not done so. Instead, you've merely stated that cloaking makes you invisible. You have TOTALLY ignored the numerous posts stating that it has been proven time and time again that you cannot contain a marine team using cloaking\ambushes.
Yes, you can "get the drop" on marines if you use cloaking. You can ALSO do it without cloaking. However, if you are attempting to actually ATTACK the marines, to destroy a vital outpost, <b>CLOAKING WILL NOT HELP YOU!</b>
Now, if anyone can tell me a way in which cloaking CAN help you to attack and destroy marine installations more efficiently than carapace, I'm all ears. And don't assume that because I don't agree with you I don't understand your argument.
the early game is all about map control: siezing RTs, keeping the Marines away from any potential hives
This requires aggressive tactics, and being able to hide in a corner waiting for them to come to you isn't capturing RTs, isn't securing Hives
and if you make a defense saying, "I'm killing the enemy before they can build," then it sounds as if you have a quake-ish deathmatch mentality instead of a, "Let's work together, skulks, and secure these 2 RTs and then cover the Gorge trying to build in Ventilation"
cloak just doesn't seem like the best skill for aggressive, offensive style of play so useful (and almost mandatory) in the early-game
PS: Shockwave, very good post, I see the merits of going Sensory earlier...just not as a first chamber
giving marines a spook when you chuckle, cloaked.
Cloaking? Not aggressive enough when you're trying to secure RTs and all...good mainly for the Gorge
Scent of Fear? In the early game it seems that an enemy is either dead or alive...and there are alot more skulks around providing Parasites to track enemies anyway
Enhanced Hive Sight? I would say that EHS is better for Lerks/Fades because being able to spot an enemy in the dark makes it easier to fire upon them. having said this, it's not too useful for Skulks.
Say a Marine is in the shadows and you have EHS to spot him, well if you had Carapace it'd be easier to survive the ambush and hopefully kill him, right?
To all you Sensory-First proponents, please tell me this: How do the sensory upgrades make for an easier early game?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the tip of marines is to deny aliens the chance to get hives and 2-nozzle location, and this includes securing the hives before the aliens can. cloaking will allow aliens to practically sit on top of marines, and they will notice you. well, unless you move(killing your cloak. duh.) or chuckling, which will, spook them out.
and that in a sense, is another tactic. not spooking, distracting. while marines are spraying the area where they think you are, your buddy will be biting their behinds off.
thats how have played before, and prefer.
you have your own opinions though, an i respect that.
but do not be ignorant of other persons opinions, mind.
*sigh*
Please don't assume that because people disagree with you they are obviously misunderstanding you, because if they understood you they would automatically accept that your ill-supported opinion is fact.
You were asked to show how sensory chamber upgrades are more beneficial in the opening game than defensive chamber upgrades. You have not done so. Instead, you've merely stated that cloaking makes you invisible. You have TOTALLY the numerous posts stating that it has been proven time and time again that you cannot contain a marine team using cloaking\ambushes.
Yes, you can "get the drop" on marines if you use cloaking. You can ALSO do it without cloaking. However, if you are attempting to actually ATTACK the marines, to destroy a vital outpost, <b>CLOAKING WILL NOT HELP YOU!</b>
Now, if anyone can tell me a way in which cloaking CAN help you to attack and destroy marine installations more efficiently than carapace, I'm all ears. And don't assume that because I don't agree with you I don't understand your argument.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the point early on is to prevent the enemy from expanding, isnt it? to prevent them from going out of their base long enough early on wont need carapace for this reason.
1. fools jump in along like some kharaa hero, jumps right into enemy fire. i mean, do you expect all of them to focus on defence while structures remain unbuilt? hell, no. some are building while some defend. swarm in together, thats another point.
2. when you swarm in together, carapace would hardly count anyway. say its a 10 on 10 game. this will leave 10 skulks early on rush, and 9 marines, 1 commander. commander puts in 2 portals. they build, and its done before even the fastest of skulks can reach. then its the TF, since life that can be respawned... is cheap. around this time, the skulks in the base are either chewed cos they moved solo, as i mentioned above, or they allready spooked the hell out of the marines in the scenario i am giving...
4 marines building the armoury and tf simultaniously. (this happenes more often then not, and if you want to argue, this is a SCENARIO.) this leaves 6 marines, oops, did i forget to mention that they need a commander unlike the kharaa? that leaves 5 marines. pretty daunting, considering the fact that they cant aim everywhere at once. by the end of the initial attack, some die, some survive to start attacking the buildings. the 4 i supposedly forgot? well, they are dead. you do your rushes right and the builders wont have time to whip their guns back out.
this can be remedies if the commander is smart enough to place an observatory and spam alerts. of course, after a while, marines will start pouring in through the portals. brag that you can leave a marine a split second to breath the air before you snap his heads of with bite if you must, but sooner or later, skulks will be pushed back. what then? start attacking their base after you were killed? suicidal. by then, defences will be up. what then? run about? make noise? or do you try to ambush them as they undoubtedly start trying to take hives? no, you defend. and so you hug the corner of one room. and get shot by a rather smart person, cocky that aliens ALLWAYS chose defence early on. so maybe you hide above doorways, and let marines walk past, then bite his **obscenity** off? well what if he is just the pointman? what if there are others right behind him, ready to provide cover? you kill the pointman, if youre lucky. the marines will then just pour in and secure that hive. well, get another hive then, simple isnt it? quite, untill they move into your other hive. then what, you do the same thing, attack and attack again. but they still get the hive! why? cos they have teleporters, and they can jump from base to the hive with it! YOU, dont. you only can teleport to hives, with movement. no hive, no teleport. and thats what you were trying to remedy, isnt it?
how to cure it? well, as your local doc might say, prevention is a whole lot better than cure. defend your hives/important locations with cloak. thats the practical way.
cloaking will not help you kill buildings. thats what your teeth are for. cloaking will prevent building, make them nervous enough to start walking in big, huddled groups. seeing them scared like that alone should be tribute enough to anyones' egos, if it wont, them winning the game with sensory first will.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, you can "get the drop" on marines if you use cloaking. You can ALSO do it without cloaking. However, if you are attempting to actually ATTACK the marines, to destroy a vital outpost, CLOAKING WILL NOT HELP YOU!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You only get the drop when your not cloaked if the marines are obviously noobers who dont check ceilings when they enter a new room.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now, if anyone can tell me a way in which cloaking CAN help you to attack and destroy marine installations more efficiently than carapace, I'm all ears. And don't assume that because I don't agree with you I don't understand your argument. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How about killing them before they start? Or if you get there late, do a massive skulk rush and jump around like banshees to make it harder for them to hit you. I am reminded of a post that says "No matter how good the marine's aim is it's the skulks fault for not doing something to make himself harder to hit." So no, you can't come back with the arguement of "I am God! In fact, i'm better then God when it comes to aiming." etc.
this is what you get.
well, let them play their way. IMHO, those who get together (or going to, no doubt NS will make it to the WCG.)
well see if those gentlemen(and gentlewomen, for the female folk) start of with the thinking of marines (more armur, more gud! can take mur bites!). sucking in a few more bullets wont help much when the enemy has decent aim. i dont, but i prefer sneaking, ambushing. waiting for the enemy to walk into my claws, and ~CHOMP~
the point of skulks, as i thought i should not be needing to mention, was that skulks are designed for guerilla warfare. that means hit and run, and hit again before the enemy regroups. THIS, will not requite excessive armour, just speed, and the element of surprise.
<b>get one other hive</b>
So how do you do this,
<b>it is acheived by preventing the marines building an installation near your current hive or the one you are attempting to hold.</b>
Maybe you think Cloaking helps you do this, but it simply does not, assuming teams of 6v6. Marines first rush 1 hive, and then the one you are probably going for. So your skulks cloak around the hive ready to ' get the drop ' on the marines. Oh but whats this Bling Bling scanner sweep, *bam*bam* , 3 dead skulks phase gate goes up. other 2 skulks covering different routes attack, but oh look no carrapace *bam*bam* chewed in 9 bullets each by decent aim.
Compare that to carapaced skulks possibly near some DC's the marines simply wont have the bullets to take out all the skulks before they run off to heal.
<b>get one other hive</b>
So how do you do this,
<b>it is acheived by preventing the marines building an installation near your current hive or the one you are attempting to hold.</b>
Maybe you think Cloaking helps you do this, but it simply does not, assuming teams of 6v6. Marines first rush 1 hive, and then the one you are probably going for. So your skulks cloak around the hive ready to ' get the drop ' on the marines. Oh but whats this Bling Bling scanner sweep, *bam*bam* , 3 dead skulks phase gate goes up. other 2 skulks covering different routes attack, but oh look no carrapace *bam*bam* chewed in 9 bullets each by decent aim.
Compare that to carapaced skulks possibly near some DC's the marines simply wont have the bullets to take out all the skulks before they run off to heal.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
not trying to be rude, but if skulks huddle so close that it will take only one sweep to reveal them, they they deserve to die.
Either way, you can't say that 'trying a new strategy is more fun' just because you find it fun.
Cloaking requires that you stand still, that you camp, that you wait for the enemy to come to you
A skulk that is not fighting, moving, scouting, or parasiting is, IMO a useless Skulk
you just can't win a game when you're just sitting and camping, and going Cloak first may or may not allow you to complete your early game objective but Carapace or even Silence/Celerity will do it better (again, IMO)
Offense, Aggression, Attack, Survival: These win the early game
Instead of discussing this, why don't we debate whether Defense/Movement -or- Defense/Sensory is better
okay.....and how would Cloaking help more in this situation than Carapace or Celerity/Silence?
defend you arguments, give evidence of such a statement
--Edited out some typos--
I'm doing a lot of tuning for the alien upgrades for v1.1. One of my goals is to make all the alien upgrades equally viable at all times. I hate to say it, but sensory doesn't seem to be too viable for the early game (as much as I want it to be). The sensory upgrades aren't very good, and the sensory chamber ability isn't very useful.
I'm contemplating making sensory chambers cloak themselves when built, and cloak all nearby players automatically as well...if that doesn't make them more useful, I don't know what will... :)
I'm also changing the sensory upgrades (removing a couple, adding a couple) to try to make them more viable, especially early on.
but you failed to answer my question
I asked how would cloaking (and consequently the Sensory chambers) help <i>more</i> with taking a 2nd hive versus going with Defense chambers (with Carapace) or even Movement chambers for Celerity/Silence
PS: Please don't get rid of Scent of Fear!
lol
Flayra, I think that is an excellent idea! Problem is that sensory might become too popular, and then you'll get threads like 'Fed up of SC/MC/DC try something else'! LOL
well it's pretty simple actually because if you go DMS or not the second hive should be empty unless the skulks are doing a terrible job and didnt stall the marines as long as 5 minutes so that the gorge could get to the second hive and put it up.
--Edit--
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think that is an excellent idea! Problem is that sensory might become too popular, and then you'll get threads like 'Fed up of SC/MC/DC try something else'! LOL <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
/rolleyes
again you're avoiding the question
"...if you go DMS or not the second hive should be empty..."
so again, you're not telling us how Sensory would make securing a 2nd hive easier than Defense or Movement
so are you trying to tell us that you have no real argument for Sensory-first, just preference?
"...if you go DMS or not the second hive should be empty..."
so again, you're not telling us how Sensory would make securing a 2nd hive easier than Defense or Movement
so are you trying to tell us that you have no real argument for Sensory-first, just preference? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, im saying it doesnt matter what upgrade you have because the second hive is empty, as in there aren't any turrets, there aren't any marines, its just the gorge and his hmaster-like fat. So it doesn't matter, the gorge could be unupgraded at that point BECAUSE THERE IS NOTHING THERE, the marines are off struggling to take the first hive.
we were talking about fighting and securing areas in the early game with Sensory-first strategy
IIRC, we weren't discussing how little either chamber would matter if you were a Gorge (weren't we talking about Skulks??) making a 2nd hive
guh, I don't even wish to discuss this anymore simply because we're not even <b>discussing</b> it
Flarya; the idea of sensory's cloaking nearby players and chambers sounds great- probbably need to be a bit more expensive than 10 res if that get's added mind...
Exactly, both chambers can (when played right) get the same desired effect, a win. One chamber, you run straight up and chomp away, while the other chamber you run up to where mareins are, but camp outside and wait for them to come out, then chomp.
--Edit to respons to Vincent's edit--
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> did you change the argument?
we were talking about fighting and securing areas in the early game with Sensory-first strategy
IIRC, we weren't discussing how little either chamber would matter if you were a Gorge (weren't we talking about Skulks??) making a 2nd hive
guh, I don't even wish to discuss this anymore simply because we're not even discussing it<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
..huh? as i recall skulks can't make hives so i started talking about gorges, now im getting yelled at for talking about gorges?
much appreciated
Thanks For Your Attention! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think Itha (the original poster) got his wish, didn't he now? We even got the creator's attention.
- So Itha, if you're out there still and following this, what do you have to say about all of this mayhem?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I hate to say it, but sensory doesn't seem to be too viable for the early game (as much as I want it to be). The sensory upgrades aren't very good, and the sensory chamber ability isn't very useful. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you can provide a strategy for using Sensory in the early game I would like to hear it, maybe there is something I haven't yet tried. So far, you've only been stating the tactics, which is not really a strategy.
You could be writing stuff like, where do you cloak? above doorways or on top of a hive? inside the marine base? All you've been posting is stuff like, 'sensory is good because you can be invisible and nobody can see you'. To be honest, you ain't gonna get much respect for your cause if you don't have anything worthwhile reading.