The danger of angling a game towards the hardcore crowd is that it's quickly analyzed to death. Place turrets at the water entrance and the entry hall. Lay mines by the door to the flag room. Rocket jump at points A, B, and C to get the flag. Everything moves into the routine of a machine as each side immediately goes about the most efficient path to their overall goals. NS is already showing those symptoms, though things aren't quite locked down yet as people are still growing accustomed to it. Used to be turret factories first thing or the boot commander vote would start. Now it's phase gates and a hive rush. Defense, Movement, Sensory, or people hate the Gorges.
A skill-based game and such predictability don't go hand in hand, necessarily, but you can count on the people who are playing to win at all costs to put tremendous effort into ferreting out every detail. Just look at rocket-jumping. What sane person would blow off their own feet with a rocket? And yet it's not only an accepted trick for people to pull off, it's become almost mandatory in the games that it's possible in. Flayra's working to tweak things to make multiple strategies equally viable, but that's impossible. One or another will have a tiny, tiny edge, and those players will find it, and cling to it. It's an inevitability. If stacking five mines, detonating them while standing on top, turning precisely 298 degrees in midair while firing seventeen LMG rounds, no more, no less, at the nearest wall will get a player further ahead, they'll do it.
NS is a team-based game. Teamwork should be the key to all things, not skill and knowing tricks to play with the engine. Not that skill should be ignored or dumbed down, but a lone person should never defeat a group using teamwork, regardless of their skill. Look at it this way: skill is the icing on the cake, a bonus, while the essential ingredient lies in working together.
Forgive me if I simply missed it in all the long posts and such, but how exactly are you proposing to "dumb down" NS? There are no headshots, no recoil, and the maps aren't getting any less complex. Short of ripping up the entire game foundations, I don't see any real way of making NS any *easier*.
The only thing, really, is not to make it easier to play, but instead easier to learn. On a server a few days ago, some newbie joined aliens, got confused, and then talked about the download being a "waste of time" before he left the game. He didn't flame, wasn't a llama, spelled everything right--he simply thought he sucked at NS because he didn't get what was going on.
So maybe there is a way to dumb down NS--make it easier to catch on to and get addicted. Obviously some people are naturally good at picking things up, but what to do for those who aren't?
You can't expect everyone to read the manual, in a world where people want fast downloads and a game to jump right into. So maybe after NS is installed, the Slideshow could be MANDATORY to watch, and quite a bit more informative? Just a simple "If you are new to aliens, don't evolve just yet--instead, stay a skulk and use cover and stealth to your advantage to ambush marines with your bite attack." could go a long way. Perhaps a short runthrough of the marines' buildings, so people know where to get ammo, how to build, etc.
I really feel that any changes to the game itself, like CS and the recent noob-proofing of the Colt (I never played the beta), would be really horrible. Just look at CS now--sure, it has a huge fanbase, but what about all the former players who now look upon it with the upmost scorn? Unless NS is to go that way, which I don't think anyone wants, it should not be "dumbed down" in the sense of making the game less challenging--it should just be a little easier to understand, get started, and get into the non-stop pulse-pounding intelligent rewarding experience that is NS.
I think NS was designed from the ground up to not encourage / reward individual action, especially when it comes to Marines. It's really frustrating, as the gameplay itself is relatively unexciting compared to games like TFC, CS, and DOD (my fav). So, your enjoyment is entirely relative to whether or not your team is winning. It's no surprise, then, that so many NS players get mad at each other, and insult each other in every other game i've played of NS. Whereas in games like DOD, I've never seen anyone come to any sort of aggression towards their teammates... after a year of playing! Everyone's having fun, win or lose. (Then again, i only play custom maps... which are much better designed than the standard maps, which can easily bog down and create a lot of frustration due to lack of change of environment. lol)
that being said..... i totally agree with Kistune on that a group of players should be able to defeat a single one, regardless of skill. But dangit, i wish it was made exciting too...... instead of an RPG-like battle of stats/equipment/numbers.
SinSpawnHarbinger of SufferingJoin Date: 2002-11-12Member: 8359Members
i personnally cannot hit anything with the skulk, its to diffucult for me to get clsoe and bite even if i do they dont die, they only die they standing still...and i always have to depend on the fade for its projectile attacks=noobi
Making the game suitable for casual players means removing aspects out of it. Removing something means simplicity and loss of options. The fun would be fast out of the playing.
Besides it is for casual players already! Just join the game. As a marine, you have some weapons. Fine, run somewhere to die. Good enough for casual playing. As an alien, go and try to bite something. Cool enough.
Shame that the systems regarding joining the game just plain suck. (Completely moronic forced team balancing etc)
If you want this any simpler without destroying the idea, the next step will be creating a Klondike Solitaire named Natural Selection.
What a narrowminded view on game design I see. "Fitting for all" does not imply dumbed down. Very clever game design can encompass both hardcore and casual gamers, it is what all game company executives strive to. But it is a difficult task, and many fail with bland products as the result.
The idea is to have a complex game presented in a simple manner. It is essential to have what I term "distributed cognizance", ie. having cues and visuals to give you at-a-glance information about essentials in the game. This includes but is not limited to tilts of the screen when a skulk bites your arse, the reload animation when your clip is low, the sinking stamina bar on the alien hud, the minimap of your surroundings, identification spots on the maps so you know where you are spatially and so forth.
In fact, we're much better at gauging needles than digits. The marine ammo counter should be a needle or a bar.
But I digress. There is no theoretical hindrance to create a complex game that can embrace casuals as well as hard corers. But it takes talent, skill and lots of work.
You guys are getting it wrong. The marine team is designed to limit the possibilities of a single player. Its designed so that they will always have to rely on teammates no matter how 1337 they get. The aliens, however, have a very high skill-ceiling, if you are good at blinking and slashing, you can put increadible use to a fade, if you fly well, one 1-hive lerk can do surprising amounts of damage. But you cant really own anyone even with a HMG/HA marine if youre on your own, you will still need someone to weld you, and a commander to give you health.
Very true. I feel so much more evil and 1337 when I pwn as aliens, but when it is as marines I feel that _WE_ are doing great. A HMG/HA marine might very well be a formidable foe, but he knows that only so much time in the field and he's due for repair. That is a great dampener on the ramboness of the marines. They need skills allright, but they need other skills.
First, to aim! Secondly to shot wise, conserving ammo since they're relying on a small supply and slow reloads. They also need good situational awareness. The idiots I see jumping down corridors have completely missed the point. Their CS bunny hops reveals the chasm of ignorance they live in. But at some point I guess they will learn that jumping around like a nincompoop not only ruins your aim, it also gives your position away AS WELL as limitng your own situational awareness. And to communicate efficiently, the commander needs his intelligence from the ground crew. Lastly, they need to learn close team working on the ground, covering each other, as opposed to the aliens' "loose" teamworking.
The aliens need other sets of skills. Superb DM is good for a skulk, for a lerk, for a fade. Only no-brainer is the onos. The aliens need much more navigational proficiency. They must use vents to their advantage, they must travel very quickly. use walls, ceilings. They must also learn to distribute roles between themselves efficiently. 1 fade, 1 lerk and 1 gorge attacking is indeed a very evil combination to fight, even with a HA marine. The Lerk umbras, spikes. The fade rockets and blinks, the gorge heals and webs. Ouchies wouchies.
No, aliens are the hardest to master and the most DM requiring ones. The marines are needing entirely different skills.
yer it is pretty sad about the skill limit. I would like more required skill as it awards the good gamers. Dont u hate it when a first time player can knock off the best player with some luck. Is easy to do in CS. I think CS has turned into a haxor game. would like to see ns haxor free zone.
<!--QuoteBegin--Kitsune+Jan 5 2003, 03:05 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kitsune @ Jan 5 2003, 03:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I've never really understood how precisely one goes about dumbing down a FPS. You move the crosshairs over a thing, click the mouse, repeat until dead. Not exactly rocket science, there. I'll be the very first to admit that I'm only a competent player as far as going around and shooting things goes. I manage to hold my own, but will probably never reach the level of the really obsessive players. And I'm fine with that, I just gravitate towards engineer/medic roles where I can best help without everyone depending on my getting a head shot in. The crack shots are more than welcome to be up on the front lines racking up the kills; as long as I can still perform a useful role for the team, I'm content.
Now, what really irks me is when people think that a game needs skill to the point that they just cheat. Skip practice, just use mister aimbot here and let it play for you! I despise cheaters.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'll lay this one out for you as its a topic i'm quite familiar with :)
In terms of individual player abilities, there are several key skills that seperate a very skilled FPS player from an average FPS player:
1. Aim - Ability to aim accurately, aquire targets quickly, track quickly and precisely. Aim isnt just about your ability to headshot with a hitscan weapon either, prediction and the use of projectile type weapons is a much more complex skill - tracking an opponents movement across a room, predicting paths such as towards a doorway or through a powerup, and then leading shots into them all comes under the aiming category.
2. Movement skills - fast and intelligent dodging, this is most important when dealing with the prediction/projectile situation above. Knowing how to fool a players aim or prediction. Also in this category you lump the skillful use of special movement skills, hopping down a spiral staircase, rj'ing over a wall and spinning 180 in the air to gib the guy about to grab the flag is all movement skill.
3. Combat knowledge - This is hard to define as it differs from game to game, but essentially it includes any skills gained by experience that dictate what you do in a given situation. In NS as a marine this boils down to knowing common skulk hiding places, knowing to cover the opposite end of the hall when your teammate is looking 1 way, or knowing to always have 1 person building the rest covering etc. In QWDM, this would include knowing spawn times of items and how to control the map, predicting your opponents movement through the map via missing items etc. All prediction that doesn't come under the aim category goes in here.
Now, with those defined, "Dumbing down" a game in the FPS sense of the word means to put limitations on a good players ability to use the above skills. To dumb down aim, you introduce elements such as vision obscuring muzzle flashes or random firing cones. If a player is capable of making pinpoint accurate shots at distance and on a fast moving target, these things can prevent him from doing so because they make his greater aiming skill worthless.
So "Dumbing down" can be defined as changing the game in such a way that a skilled player has little or no advantage over a lesser skilled player. With a vision obscuring muzzle flash, the player cannot see his target to make quick aim adjustments or track accurately, a weak player is incapable of doing this anyway so the muzzle flash is not a concern to him, but a skilled player is handicapped by it. Random firing cones mean that on many occasions, you don't hit what's directly under your crosshair - again a handicap to skilled players that does not effect the mediocre. The reliance of a game on hitscan weapons also makes many skills regarding prediction unnecessary.
Movement skills are dumbed down by limiting movement speed to a crawl, including only hitscan weapons that make advanced prediction dodging unnnecessary, removing any advanced form of movement such as hopping, or adding penalties on moving and firing which hinder people capable of doing so accurately. Anything that dumbs down movement usually dumbs down aiming skill as well, by giving you nothing but easy targets to aim at.
Combat knowledge is too variable a topic to properly discuss in this way, because its hard to make any comparisons between NS and other games. I suppose dumbing this down in a game such as QW would involve using simplistic level design that makes it impossible to control a level or makes predicting your opponents movement unnecessary.
I come from a DM background, and grew up playing games like QW, Q3A and Q3F, rather than going the HL/CS route which many of you probably took. I'll state clearly right now - the amount of individual player skill required in NS is nowhere near that of QW, Q3A, Q3F. NS does not really reward players with finely tuned FPS skills, however i still rank it above the current CS in this respect. Marines in NS have hitscan weapons with innacurate firing cones and vision obscuring muzzle flashes, they have great limitations on movement, and it's encouraged to move slowly and cover positions by staying still. On the plus side, you get lots of small, fast targets to shoot which do require good tracking to deal with effectively. Jetpacking gives you a way to properly show off some movement skills, and does encourage you to fire while moving quite quickly. With the exception of the jetpacker, the alien units in my opinion require a little more individual skill on the whole than the marines. You could say, while NS isnt exactly a cpma duel, its not nearly as dumbed down as it could be for a HL mod :)
Now you're all going to start complaining about me analyzing NS as if it was a dm mod, i know there is more to it than individual player skill. At the moment, marine vs. skulk combat is weak enough to make overall strategy far more important than individual player ability - winning a game is currently about 90% gameplan. Unfortunately, at the moment the strategies are very limited. Everyone knows the defence/movement/sensory problems, marine strategies are also becoming rather routine. Overall gameplan is important enough that if you don't use one of the accepted winning strategies, you will lose regardless of how skilled your players are. The accepted winning strategies are simply too few, and once all clans have them perfected, the game at a competitive level is going to be in trouble.
If we're lucky though, patches will keep clan play on its toes and prevent it from stagnating untill we reach a better balance. tweaking alien abilities here and there with each patch, seeing how the changes pan out in clan play and then tweaking again untill eventually we have a wider variety of usable strategies. And we might finally see sensory chambers first without aliens automatically forfeiting the game.
A game such as NS thrives off its clan play, i've played my fair share of complex team-based mods and the public play is always weak, due to the amount of experience and co-ordination required to play the game properly. I can imagine public play will still survive in NS thanks to the massive playerbase you inherit by being on the HL engine, and having a sort-of-CS-like marine class. However, we already see complaints about aliens dominating pubs due to lack of marine organisation, chances are public play will never be perfect, due to the balance issues that crop up when teams mince about and don't really understand what they are doing. The last team mod i came from, Quake 3 Fortress, generated a very strong clanbase (While it was still going) but public play became very weak. The average casual player doesn't want to make the effort required to learn a game like this. NS has some advantages over Q3F in the pub department thanks to the commander system, which does encourage more organisation in pubs. I guess we'll have to see how it pans out.
And now i'll try to get back on topic :o
"Flayra's working to tweak things to make multiple strategies equally viable, but that's impossible."
It is possible, but not with the current system. The key to this is counter strategies, the most effective strategy for the marines to employ has to depend on the strategy that the aliens are going for, and visa versa. And when that happens you'll get variable tactics depending on scouting information (Much like a real RTS). This happens to an extent already, it just needs extending. It may be impossible for every element of strategy to be variable, there might always be a best starting order such as 2 IF's 1 armoury, but the game can be more flexible than it currently is.
Concerning extra help and making it easier for new players to get into a game, this doesn't fall under my definition of "Dumbing Down". Anything you can do that makes it easier for new people to get into the game, WITHOUT changing gameplay for the veterans is always a good thing.
<!--QuoteBegin--supernorn2000+Dec 31 2002, 01:17 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (supernorn2000 @ Dec 31 2002, 01:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->there will always be people that will whine.... oh, he got a headshot! hes a cheater, thats not possible! he cant be THAT good!, aww...i wanna HMG! gimmie a HMG! Gimmie gimmie gimmie!! i have very serious doubts that the Dev team will change their whole game just because there are people that are incredibly stupid and have no patience at gaining the skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Those who can´t wait to get the skill and therefore use scripts, cheats and hacks are already there.
And I guess they think that they have no other choice to win this game, coz on a pub you can´t rely on your teammates most of the time.
<!--QuoteBegin--DarkAngel+Dec 31 2002, 07:33 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkAngel @ Dec 31 2002, 07:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Have we done it yet?
How long until this game is focussed on people of limited skill?
Casual gamers. Often when they die from something, regardless of what it is, they'll come here and whine about it, with the other ten thousand players that are, until the developers feel they must be doing something wrong, and bow to their hideously broken wishes.
Eventually, when the game is so incredibly skill limited that when someone with ten times the skill of myself, has to *really struggle* to beat me, because the engine tricks, speed and dexterity of the game have been removed, then they will probably complain less. Probably.
In all seriousness, the CS developers once had a game that (beta 5.2) was for an <admittedly elitist> community of hardcore gamers. If someone had the twitch reflexes and the tactical mind of a genius, he could take out an entire team of fairly skilled players. I'm not talking about the casual gamer who knows which end the bullets come out, but fairly knowledgable players.
But in time, the CS team realised that cs would not earn them money if they appealed to the hardcore gamer market. They made the decision <and a VERY wise one>, that in order to appeal to the majority of gameplayers on this planet (casual gamers), the game would have to be dumbed down so that they wouldn't get their arses caned by the super players around, every time they played, and would therefore love the game, and buy many more copies of halflife.
NS is probably going to go the same way. I know I'll get flamed for being an elitist scumbag, and maybe I am. I liked CS beta 5.2 (but none past that), and I'm a quakeworld deathmatch, teamdeathmatch, and teamfortress fanatic.
All the skill is being taken out of modern games, to make them appeal to the general public. It's pretty sad really. See below for a very entertaining movie of AUS qw community..A game with very high skill LIMITS. (ie: if you are ten times as good as the next guy, the game won't hold you back)
Don't give NS a glass ceiling for skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> AMEN TO THAT! omg... i feel exactly the same way as u
i started lets see.. hmm .. v 1.1 CS... and well... i was pretty good.. (yes i didn't start in the beta..sue me <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> ) ... well now.. its already 1.5.. and the game is stupid... well almost.... and n00bs with NO aim can kil me.. with the weird screwed over hitboxes.. thx to the CS dev team...
hopefully.. and i know.. the NS dev team is a lot better.. and im seriously wishing and hoping they wont make it more "user-friendly" but instead require people to practice and actually have talent .. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--TeoH+Jan 6 2003, 05:29 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TeoH @ Jan 6 2003, 05:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So "Dumbing down" can be defined as changing the game in such a way that a skilled player has little or no advantage over a lesser skilled player. With a vision obscuring muzzle flash, the player cannot see his target to make quick aim adjustments or track accurately, a weak player is incapable of doing this anyway so the muzzle flash is not a concern to him, but a skilled player is handicapped by it. Random firing cones mean that on many occasions, you don't hit what's directly under your crosshair - again a handicap to skilled players that does not effect the mediocre. The reliance of a game on hitscan weapons also makes many skills regarding prediction unnecessary.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Your analysis is correct, and it does put focus on other areas of NS than the specific super-god skilled FPS frag masta possesses. By no means useless, but not resulting in super 30-1 kill ratios.
There is one benefit of this though, cutting down on the individual's skill by a "glass ceiling". It reduces the advantage gained by employing cheating. What good will a headshot script do you if you shoot in a cone anyway? And there's no head to hit? Or what will a wall hack help you accomplish when there's already hive sight and motion tracking, not to mention the odds are still not the greatest in the world if you rambo around and are attacked by acid rockets.
And that is by all means a sacrifice I am willing to make.
TeoH, your 2nd post is better than all my previous 200 put together. I agree completely <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> .
NS has a number of things that I like: - the feel. e.g. the "Aliens" movie. This doesn't involve bunny-hopping, knife slashing marines. - the idea. RTS/FPS hybrid? - tactics. Flanking/hiding/rushing etc. - strategy. [needs a 'bit' of work] - team differences. The marines & aliens contrast well - providing 2 very different games.
Personally, I would not be interested in "counter-strike with buildings".
So, what changes would I like, that the original poster may feel is 'dumbing down'? - bunny hopping removed - marine hitbox exploitation removed - endurance implemented for marine jumping - jetpack fuel reduction - massive upgrades to the commander interface
Very good posts here, especially TeoH's post. I agree that CS is very dumbed down now, after you reach a certain skill level, you can't go any further. After that it's mostly luck that determines your success. I also agree that CS hasn't been very good since 5.2. I began playing CS at the end of beta 3 and I must say I loved it. The community was fairly small and most players in my country could even pretty well tell how good everyone was. After 5.2 the game started going downhill. That's when all the friendly atmosphere and all the best maps pretty much dissapeared and hacking started. I also hate the "new" models.
I'd like to have a smaller muzzle flash as marines, or maybe you could research muzzle flash decreasers or something. You really can't see the skulk running towards you because of its speed and the huge muzzle flash. The LMG is fairly accurate, so I don't think it would be a bad idea to add weak spots to the models. Marines would have weak heads, skulks maybe a weak belly and stuff. Oh and please add outdoor maps...and flamethrowers, yeah those would rock. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--HA|Striker+Dec 31 2002, 07:53 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (HA|Striker @ Dec 31 2002, 07:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Don't know about casual players and NS because I started playing few weeks ago <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
You want a game where you need skill and experience to survive against good players: Play TFC. Probably I am better than most casual gamer because I have not met any high skilled players in NS til now. But it seems most n00bs play marine because it is very easy to kill something.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> HAHAHA ROFL TFC
But seriously, many of the features already in NS that could be considered "dumbed down" are actually clever means to deter cheating built into the game. No area specific damage makes aimbot less useful. Cone of fire makes aimbot less useful. Both hive sight and motion tracking make wallhacks less useful. Mainly melee alien weapons make aimbot less useful. etc etc, I'm sure there are many more intentional examples I haven't considered.
eheheh i guess i got this irrational sense of fear when i heard people mentioning that past CS beta's used to be good, (though nobody has explained how yet)... "wait... CS used to be good?!? but now it's.... egad if something good can turn into what CS is now, than my precious NS might be in danger!"
I hate the LMG <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> Its impossible to be sure if your hitting a skulk charging at you head on because the muzzle flash is blocking your view. Usually in those cases I switch to the pistol, and say a small prayer.
I have no clue how the heck you can dumb down ANY FPS. I mean really, you jump in, kill stuff. Try not to die.
I think they did their best to make NS very approachable. All those pop-up hints and stuff. I think one of the problems with approachability is that some of the default hint boxes tell noob NS players to do things that screw up the Accepted Strategies.
Like that "Did you know that you can turn into a gorge? So do it! Right now!" hint. That's retarded. Five seconds later, you get this:
Ridley: Why all the gorges? Scaryn: OMFG WE DONT NEED 3 GORGES IDunnoWhatImDoing: sorry im new NSplayer: me too <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
I think it would be great if you had some kind of single-player training modes against AI-powered enemies where it trains you in objectives. Like it could be "build 4 resource chambers throughout the level, then build defenses at the hive." Or there could be a marine map where the objective is simply to stay put and guard against the skulk rush, and babblers spawn in. The player would need to complete these training courses before they can join a public game.
Now, that would make it harder for a noob to just download the game and jump in,so maybe it's a bad idea... it might be better to just include a hazard course option, and that way instead of telling NSPlayer "Go to the forums!" "where is it" "natural-selection.org" "how do I go there" players could just tell them to do the hazard course.
It's not that NS needs dumbing-down per say... the players just need to be better educated. Not better trained in things like jumping and aiming, just better educated.
Now, I'm all for increased tactical diversity, but I don't think the best way to encourage it is by nerfing the tools employed by the current "best" strategy until using said strategy will get you killed/starve your team for resources.
well, since everyone is catorring to the "less fortunetly skilled" players, players like that as such are becoming more common; therefore until the industry makes more "higher-skill" games, we will always have people crabbing that "it isn't fair".
i think NS should stay just as it is, in skill level, i mean. hell, i have trouble beating the last boss in almost any game, but i eventually do. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> people will get it eventually like me, or else they'll be stuck there, complaining, for the rest of their gaming lives. So, when you see a whining post, just ignor it or give some "helping" tips... <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
"All the posts about random bullets in CS, etc gets under my skin. I have shot a DEagle, AK-47, AR-15, Glocks, etc and I can tell you that you are not going to hold auto and aim. "
Definetly true, I would NEVER fire a DE while running or jumping like you do in CS. Or any gun if I could help it. However, in real life, guns are extremely accurate. The guns in CS are innacurate to the point of idiocy, but they are extremely controllable on full-auto. In a moronic twist, the rifles are better full auto then SMGs. Guns also kill in far, far fewer hits (or at the very least, disable) then in CS. Given the choice between a pistol that forced you to stop moving, take a second to aim, but killed in a shot or two, or CS' regular guns, I would take the pistol. This is the problem I had with the AWP - it fit in great with the old player speeds and bunny hopping and all that stuff. But they made every other gun far worse long distance, lowered player speed, removed bunny hopping - with only slight downtweaks of the AWP. Ah well.
"I'm curious, what was different between this beta 5.2 CS and it's current form?"
5.2 was VERY arcade like, as well as the first release with a modern hud and such. The first one that looked truely polished. It still had very high run speeds and the knife speed - you ran like 1/3 faster with knife out. This also added in demolition zones, I believe it was 5.2 anyways. You used to be able to drop the bomb anywhere, which was pretty stupid. Guns were extremely accurate, with super fast reloads. The TMP was easily the equal of the MP5, if you knew how to fire the weapons correctly the great players dominated with everything. Even the glock was excellent in those days, and the USP and glock were pretty well balanced. You could also hold a lot more ammo.. 200 with the rifles if I remember right. The colt had a scope back then. There were only 3 rifles, the aug came in 6.1. The AK was a terrorist, colt was CT, and SIG was shared. I BELIEVE scout was in the game at this point, not positive. The pump shotgun, the Benelli M3 Super 90, fired MUCH faster and did considerably less damage up close but kept it's damage better farther away. There were considerably less weapons - I don't think the MAC was put in at that point, only 4 pistols, no UMP, no dual berettas, no SIG550. Most of the guns added in the recent releases are so much worse then the old guns they don't really matter.. Only exception is the AUG really, and the colt is still used much more. The current TMP model is the same as the old - one of very few to stay the same. Back then, the super fast TMP reload was only average. MP5 was about the same... Going knife only was actually a viable strategy if you knew what you were doing - it killed in two to three hits, only one type of attack. The speed boost helped a lot.
6.1 changed a lot. It lowered player speed, slightly increased weapon hit slowdown, added some new guns, that sort of thing. It felt a lot more like a simulation kind of game, though it still had a strong arcade feeling. 6.1 Benelli M3 was awesome, like all the other guns. M3 had one hit kill headshots out to about 50 or 60 hits all the way until 7.1, at which point they made it horrible for an unknown reason. 6.1 and 6.5 (which was the first version version with the new net code and client side prediction) are my favorite releases, the more arcadeish 5.2 is many peoples favorites.
Over the next releases, they made all weapons much worse and less accurate, made bullet hits slow you down MUCH MUCH more, made shooting in mid air only useful with the rifles, and a bunch of other truely idiotic changes. The game is FAR more random, and now the assault rifles are better then any other weapon in nearly any situation.
"unforuntaly with each subsequent patch it got progressivly worse and I quit it soon after it got patched past 5.2 and havent played it since. "
In my opinion at least, 6.1-6.6 were CS' high point, but for those who like the arcade like 5.2 feel, I definetly understand.
"i started lets see.. hmm .. v 1.1 CS... and well... i was pretty good.. (yes i didn't start in the beta..sue me ) ... well now.. its already 1.5.. and the game is stupid... well almost.... and n00bs with NO aim can kil me.. with the weird screwed over hitboxes.. thx to the CS dev team... "
Ya know... The game hasn't really changed a lot since 1.0. 1.0 is when they brought in the much worse new models (and took out the injury animations for some reason, as well as nearly all blood). The hitbox bug came into CS in 1.1. 1.0 was a marginal improvement in a few areas and a step back in most others. A few guns regained some accuracy and what have you, but many other crappy changes came with it. 1.0 is the version that tripled weapon hit slowdown.. Ugh. The slight accuracy improvements in 1.0 were removed in 1.1 and on.
I'm just bitter about a great game being deliberately and slowly ruined. I still try to get people to play 6.6 at LAN parties and they never will <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Haha, what's with the CS bashing? 'Cause you can't be a one-man army? It IS a team game y'know.
And about team games, NS is ALSO a team game. You can only be so good in these kind of games. The cone of fire is to NS as recoil is to CS.
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>P.S. Just because a game doesn't have 1122131000 weapons, options, models, skins, textures, whatever! Doesn't mean it sucks. NS itself has very limited amount of weapons for marines. CS is also very appealing for its simplicity. Simplicity CAN be good believe it or not! OMG!</span>
<!--QuoteBegin--Go7+Jan 6 2003, 10:59 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Go7 @ Jan 6 2003, 10:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So, your enjoyment is entirely relative to whether or not your team is winning.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I find losing a game that is still winnable is LOTS of fun. Its when you get to the point that there is no chance of a comeback that it becomes boring and monotonous.
Another thing to take into account is that several of the dumbing features are there for balance purposes. LMG and HMG spread makes it more likely to miss the little guys than the bigguns, giving Skulks the survivability they need. Slow marines makes ramboing less attractive, since a death makes you spend a few minutes hiking through the map to get back to your destination.
I'm not sure yet, but I think hopping is useful to marines somewhat. I found my death rate went down a lot if I started jumping (I learned jumping skills thanks to "the hunted" in TFC. DOT! DOT!) when I encountered a skulk. While I lost some accuracy, I was better off than the poor confused skulk who was expecting to see me stay still.
"Haha, what's with the CS bashing? 'Cause you can't be a one-man army? It IS a team game y'know."
No. While I personally DO miss being a one-man army sometimes ( <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> ), you could only pull that off well against considerably less skilled players. I'm talking the 6.x betas, not 5.2. 5.2 one great player could easily win by himself, but they changed that in the 6.xs. It used to have elements of reality with a fun arcade feeling. Now it has no elements of reality, and no elements of arcadeyness. It is niether realistic nor arcadish, but some terrible third. The only real reason teamplay helps on most servers is because you have two random sprays of bullets instead of one.
Ok, I'm slightly exaggerating the last point, but team play helped a lot in the old betas precisely because a single player could be so powerful. You STILL get one man armys, they're just not rambos. Now they sit and duck in a corner and wipe out 2/3s of the enemy team.
Personally I think its important that NS does cap the ability of individual players, its already doing it with things like the cone fireing.
The point is its a TEAM game if it gets to the point where one incredibly good player can take down an intire team then team play will be un-important and it all falls appart.
I would prefer a game in which force of reasonable people who do what their told can beat a group of 'uber' players who're not working together.
Comments
A skill-based game and such predictability don't go hand in hand, necessarily, but you can count on the people who are playing to win at all costs to put tremendous effort into ferreting out every detail. Just look at rocket-jumping. What sane person would blow off their own feet with a rocket? And yet it's not only an accepted trick for people to pull off, it's become almost mandatory in the games that it's possible in. Flayra's working to tweak things to make multiple strategies equally viable, but that's impossible. One or another will have a tiny, tiny edge, and those players will find it, and cling to it. It's an inevitability. If stacking five mines, detonating them while standing on top, turning precisely 298 degrees in midair while firing seventeen LMG rounds, no more, no less, at the nearest wall will get a player further ahead, they'll do it.
NS is a team-based game. Teamwork should be the key to all things, not skill and knowing tricks to play with the engine. Not that skill should be ignored or dumbed down, but a lone person should never defeat a group using teamwork, regardless of their skill. Look at it this way: skill is the icing on the cake, a bonus, while the essential ingredient lies in working together.
The only thing, really, is not to make it easier to play, but instead easier to learn. On a server a few days ago, some newbie joined aliens, got confused, and then talked about the download being a "waste of time" before he left the game. He didn't flame, wasn't a llama, spelled everything right--he simply thought he sucked at NS because he didn't get what was going on.
So maybe there is a way to dumb down NS--make it easier to catch on to and get addicted. Obviously some people are naturally good at picking things up, but what to do for those who aren't?
You can't expect everyone to read the manual, in a world where people want fast downloads and a game to jump right into. So maybe after NS is installed, the Slideshow could be MANDATORY to watch, and quite a bit more informative? Just a simple "If you are new to aliens, don't evolve just yet--instead, stay a skulk and use cover and stealth to your advantage to ambush marines with your bite attack." could go a long way. Perhaps a short runthrough of the marines' buildings, so people know where to get ammo, how to build, etc.
I really feel that any changes to the game itself, like CS and the recent noob-proofing of the Colt (I never played the beta), would be really horrible. Just look at CS now--sure, it has a huge fanbase, but what about all the former players who now look upon it with the upmost scorn? Unless NS is to go that way, which I don't think anyone wants, it should not be "dumbed down" in the sense of making the game less challenging--it should just be a little easier to understand, get started, and get into the non-stop pulse-pounding intelligent rewarding experience that is NS.
that being said..... i totally agree with Kistune on that a group of players should be able to defeat a single one, regardless of skill. But dangit, i wish it was made exciting too...... instead of an RPG-like battle of stats/equipment/numbers.
Besides it is for casual players already! Just join the game. As a marine, you have some weapons. Fine, run somewhere to die. Good enough for casual playing. As an alien, go and try to bite something. Cool enough.
Shame that the systems regarding joining the game just plain suck. (Completely moronic forced team balancing etc)
If you want this any simpler without destroying the idea, the next step will be creating a Klondike Solitaire named Natural Selection.
The idea is to have a complex game presented in a simple manner. It is essential to have what I term "distributed cognizance", ie. having cues and visuals to give you at-a-glance information about essentials in the game. This includes but is not limited to tilts of the screen when a skulk bites your arse, the reload animation when your clip is low, the sinking stamina bar on the alien hud, the minimap of your surroundings, identification spots on the maps so you know where you are spatially and so forth.
In fact, we're much better at gauging needles than digits. The marine ammo counter should be a needle or a bar.
But I digress. There is no theoretical hindrance to create a complex game that can embrace casuals as well as hard corers. But it takes talent, skill and lots of work.
First, to aim! Secondly to shot wise, conserving ammo since they're relying on a small supply and slow reloads.
They also need good situational awareness. The idiots I see jumping down corridors have completely missed the point. Their CS bunny hops reveals the chasm of ignorance they live in. But at some point I guess they will learn that jumping around like a nincompoop not only ruins your aim, it also gives your position away AS WELL as limitng your own situational awareness.
And to communicate efficiently, the commander needs his intelligence from the ground crew.
Lastly, they need to learn close team working on the ground, covering each other, as opposed to the aliens' "loose" teamworking.
The aliens need other sets of skills. Superb DM is good for a skulk, for a lerk, for a fade. Only no-brainer is the onos.
The aliens need much more navigational proficiency. They must use vents to their advantage, they must travel very quickly. use walls, ceilings.
They must also learn to distribute roles between themselves efficiently. 1 fade, 1 lerk and 1 gorge attacking is indeed a very evil combination to fight, even with a HA marine. The Lerk umbras, spikes. The fade rockets and blinks, the gorge heals and webs. Ouchies wouchies.
No, aliens are the hardest to master and the most DM requiring ones. The marines are needing entirely different skills.
eh, wishfull thinking doesnt hurt. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Now, what really irks me is when people think that a game needs skill to the point that they just cheat. Skip practice, just use mister aimbot here and let it play for you! I despise cheaters.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll lay this one out for you as its a topic i'm quite familiar with :)
In terms of individual player abilities, there are several key skills that seperate a very skilled FPS player from an average FPS player:
1. Aim - Ability to aim accurately, aquire targets quickly, track quickly and precisely. Aim isnt just about your ability to headshot with a hitscan weapon either, prediction and the use of projectile type weapons is a much more complex skill - tracking an opponents movement across a room, predicting paths such as towards a doorway or through a powerup, and then leading shots into them all comes under the aiming category.
2. Movement skills - fast and intelligent dodging, this is most important when dealing with the prediction/projectile situation above. Knowing how to fool a players aim or prediction. Also in this category you lump the skillful use of special movement skills, hopping down a spiral staircase, rj'ing over a wall and spinning 180 in the air to gib the guy about to grab the flag is all movement skill.
3. Combat knowledge - This is hard to define as it differs from game to game, but essentially it includes any skills gained by experience that dictate what you do in a given situation. In NS as a marine this boils down to knowing common skulk hiding places, knowing to cover the opposite end of the hall when your teammate is looking 1 way, or knowing to always have 1 person building the rest covering etc. In QWDM, this would include knowing spawn times of items and how to control the map, predicting your opponents movement through the map via missing items etc. All prediction that doesn't come under the aim category goes in here.
Now, with those defined, "Dumbing down" a game in the FPS sense of the word means to put limitations on a good players ability to use the above skills. To dumb down aim, you introduce elements such as vision obscuring muzzle flashes or random firing cones. If a player is capable of making pinpoint accurate shots at distance and on a fast moving target, these things can prevent him from doing so because they make his greater aiming skill worthless.
So "Dumbing down" can be defined as changing the game in such a way that a skilled player has little or no advantage over a lesser skilled player. With a vision obscuring muzzle flash, the player cannot see his target to make quick aim adjustments or track accurately, a weak player is incapable of doing this anyway so the muzzle flash is not a concern to him, but a skilled player is handicapped by it. Random firing cones mean that on many occasions, you don't hit what's directly under your crosshair - again a handicap to skilled players that does not effect the mediocre. The reliance of a game on hitscan weapons also makes many skills regarding prediction unnecessary.
Movement skills are dumbed down by limiting movement speed to a crawl, including only hitscan weapons that make advanced prediction dodging unnnecessary, removing any advanced form of movement such as hopping, or adding penalties on moving and firing which hinder people capable of doing so accurately. Anything that dumbs down movement usually dumbs down aiming skill as well, by giving you nothing but easy targets to aim at.
Combat knowledge is too variable a topic to properly discuss in this way, because its hard to make any comparisons between NS and other games. I suppose dumbing this down in a game such as QW would involve using simplistic level design that makes it impossible to control a level or makes predicting your opponents movement unnecessary.
I come from a DM background, and grew up playing games like QW, Q3A and Q3F, rather than going the HL/CS route which many of you probably took. I'll state clearly right now - the amount of individual player skill required in NS is nowhere near that of QW, Q3A, Q3F. NS does not really reward players with finely tuned FPS skills, however i still rank it above the current CS in this respect. Marines in NS have hitscan weapons with innacurate firing cones and vision obscuring muzzle flashes, they have great limitations on movement, and it's encouraged to move slowly and cover positions by staying still. On the plus side, you get lots of small, fast targets to shoot which do require good tracking to deal with effectively. Jetpacking gives you a way to properly show off some movement skills, and does encourage you to fire while moving quite quickly. With the exception of the jetpacker, the alien units in my opinion require a little more individual skill on the whole than the marines. You could say, while NS isnt exactly a cpma duel, its not nearly as dumbed down as it could be for a HL mod :)
Now you're all going to start complaining about me analyzing NS as if it was a dm mod, i know there is more to it than individual player skill. At the moment, marine vs. skulk combat is weak enough to make overall strategy far more important than individual player ability - winning a game is currently about 90% gameplan. Unfortunately, at the moment the strategies are very limited. Everyone knows the defence/movement/sensory problems, marine strategies are also becoming rather routine. Overall gameplan is important enough that if you don't use one of the accepted winning strategies, you will lose regardless of how skilled your players are. The accepted winning strategies are simply too few, and once all clans have them perfected, the game at a competitive level is going to be in trouble.
If we're lucky though, patches will keep clan play on its toes and prevent it from stagnating untill we reach a better balance. tweaking alien abilities here and there with each patch, seeing how the changes pan out in clan play and then tweaking again untill eventually we have a wider variety of usable strategies. And we might finally see sensory chambers first without aliens automatically forfeiting the game.
A game such as NS thrives off its clan play, i've played my fair share of complex team-based mods and the public play is always weak, due to the amount of experience and co-ordination required to play the game properly. I can imagine public play will still survive in NS thanks to the massive playerbase you inherit by being on the HL engine, and having a sort-of-CS-like marine class. However, we already see complaints about aliens dominating pubs due to lack of marine organisation, chances are public play will never be perfect, due to the balance issues that crop up when teams mince about and don't really understand what they are doing. The last team mod i came from, Quake 3 Fortress, generated a very strong clanbase (While it was still going) but public play became very weak. The average casual player doesn't want to make the effort required to learn a game like this. NS has some advantages over Q3F in the pub department thanks to the commander system, which does encourage more organisation in pubs. I guess we'll have to see how it pans out.
And now i'll try to get back on topic :o
"Flayra's working to tweak things to make multiple strategies equally viable, but that's impossible."
It is possible, but not with the current system. The key to this is counter strategies, the most effective strategy for the marines to employ has to depend on the strategy that the aliens are going for, and visa versa. And when that happens you'll get variable tactics depending on scouting information (Much like a real RTS). This happens to an extent already, it just needs extending. It may be impossible for every element of strategy to be variable, there might always be a best starting order such as 2 IF's 1 armoury, but the game can be more flexible than it currently is.
Concerning extra help and making it easier for new players to get into a game, this doesn't fall under my definition of "Dumbing Down". Anything you can do that makes it easier for new people to get into the game, WITHOUT changing gameplay for the veterans is always a good thing.
oh, he got a headshot! hes a cheater, thats not possible! he cant be THAT good!, aww...i wanna HMG! gimmie a HMG! Gimmie gimmie gimmie!!
i have very serious doubts that the Dev team will change their whole game just because there are people that are incredibly stupid and have no patience at gaining the skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Those who can´t wait to get the skill and therefore use scripts, cheats and hacks are already there.
And I guess they think that they have no other choice to win this game, coz on a pub you can´t rely on your teammates most of the time.
How long until this game is focussed on people of limited skill?
Casual gamers. Often when they die from something, regardless of what it is, they'll come here and whine about it, with the other ten thousand players that are, until the developers feel they must be doing something wrong, and bow to their hideously broken wishes.
Eventually, when the game is so incredibly skill limited that when someone with ten times the skill of myself, has to *really struggle* to beat me, because the engine tricks, speed and dexterity of the game have been removed, then they will probably complain less. Probably.
In all seriousness, the CS developers once had a game that (beta 5.2) was for an <admittedly elitist> community of hardcore gamers. If someone had the twitch reflexes and the tactical mind of a genius, he could take out an entire team of fairly skilled players. I'm not talking about the casual gamer who knows which end the bullets come out, but fairly knowledgable players.
But in time, the CS team realised that cs would not earn them money if they appealed to the hardcore gamer market. They made the decision <and a VERY wise one>, that in order to appeal to the majority of gameplayers on this planet (casual gamers), the game would have to be dumbed down so that they wouldn't get their arses caned by the super players around, every time they played, and would therefore love the game, and buy many more copies of halflife.
NS is probably going to go the same way. I know I'll get flamed for being an elitist scumbag, and maybe I am. I liked CS beta 5.2 (but none past that), and I'm a quakeworld deathmatch, teamdeathmatch, and teamfortress fanatic.
All the skill is being taken out of modern games, to make them appeal to the general public. It's pretty sad really. See below for a very entertaining movie of AUS qw community..A game with very high skill LIMITS. (ie: if you are ten times as good as the next guy, the game won't hold you back)
<a href='http://qwtf.ausfortress.com/tfde/tfde-hq.avi' target='_blank'>http://qwtf.ausfortress.com/tfde/tfde-hq.avi</a>
Don't give NS a glass ceiling for skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
AMEN TO THAT! omg... i feel exactly the same way as u
i started lets see.. hmm .. v 1.1 CS... and well... i was pretty good.. (yes i didn't start in the beta..sue me <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> ) ...
well now.. its already 1.5.. and the game is stupid... well almost.... and n00bs with NO aim can kil me.. with the weird screwed over hitboxes.. thx to the CS dev team...
hopefully.. and i know.. the NS dev team is a lot better.. and im seriously wishing and hoping they wont make it more "user-friendly" but instead require people to practice and actually have talent .. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Your analysis is correct, and it does put focus on other areas of NS than the specific super-god skilled FPS frag masta possesses. By no means useless, but not resulting in super 30-1 kill ratios.
There is one benefit of this though, cutting down on the individual's skill by a "glass ceiling". It reduces the advantage gained by employing cheating. What good will a headshot script do you if you shoot in a cone anyway? And there's no head to hit? Or what will a wall hack help you accomplish when there's already hive sight and motion tracking, not to mention the odds are still not the greatest in the world if you rambo around and are attacked by acid rockets.
And that is by all means a sacrifice I am willing to make.
- the feel. e.g. the "Aliens" movie. This doesn't involve bunny-hopping, knife slashing marines.
- the idea. RTS/FPS hybrid?
- tactics. Flanking/hiding/rushing etc.
- strategy. [needs a 'bit' of work]
- team differences. The marines & aliens contrast well - providing 2 very different games.
Personally, I would not be interested in "counter-strike with buildings".
So, what changes would I like, that the original poster may feel is 'dumbing down'?
- bunny hopping removed
- marine hitbox exploitation removed
- endurance implemented for marine jumping
- jetpack fuel reduction
- massive upgrades to the commander interface
I'd like to have a smaller muzzle flash as marines, or maybe you could research muzzle flash decreasers or something. You really can't see the skulk running towards you because of its speed and the huge muzzle flash. The LMG is fairly accurate, so I don't think it would be a bad idea to add weak spots to the models. Marines would have weak heads, skulks maybe a weak belly and stuff.
Oh and please add outdoor maps...and flamethrowers, yeah those would rock. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
You want a game where you need skill and experience to survive against good players: Play TFC.
Probably I am better than most casual gamer because I have not met any high skilled players in NS til now. But it seems most n00bs play marine because it is very easy to kill something.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
HAHAHA ROFL
TFC
use your crosshair to aim, not the bright light near your gun
common sense is your best friend
TFC <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
TFC > you
But seriously, many of the features already in NS that could be considered "dumbed down" are actually clever means to deter cheating built into the game. No area specific damage makes aimbot less useful. Cone of fire makes aimbot less useful. Both hive sight and motion tracking make wallhacks less useful. Mainly melee alien weapons make aimbot less useful. etc etc, I'm sure there are many more intentional examples I haven't considered.
eheheh i guess i got this irrational sense of fear when i heard people mentioning that past CS beta's used to be good, (though nobody has explained how yet)... "wait... CS used to be good?!? but now it's.... egad if something good can turn into what CS is now, than my precious NS might be in danger!"
I have no clue how the heck you can dumb down ANY FPS. I mean really, you jump in, kill stuff. Try not to die.
Like that "Did you know that you can turn into a gorge? So do it! Right now!" hint. That's retarded. Five seconds later, you get this:
Ridley: Why all the gorges?
Scaryn: OMFG WE DONT NEED 3 GORGES
IDunnoWhatImDoing: sorry im new
NSplayer: me too <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
I think it would be great if you had some kind of single-player training modes against AI-powered enemies where it trains you in objectives. Like it could be "build 4 resource chambers throughout the level, then build defenses at the hive." Or there could be a marine map where the objective is simply to stay put and guard against the skulk rush, and babblers spawn in. The player would need to complete these training courses before they can join a public game.
Now, that would make it harder for a noob to just download the game and jump in,so maybe it's a bad idea... it might be better to just include a hazard course option, and that way instead of telling NSPlayer "Go to the forums!" "where is it" "natural-selection.org" "how do I go there" players could just tell them to do the hazard course.
It's not that NS needs dumbing-down per say... the players just need to be better educated. Not better trained in things like jumping and aiming, just better educated.
Now, I'm all for increased tactical diversity, but I don't think the best way to encourage it is by nerfing the tools employed by the current "best" strategy until using said strategy will get you killed/starve your team for resources.
i think NS should stay just as it is, in skill level, i mean. hell, i have trouble beating the last boss in almost any game, but i eventually do. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> people will get it eventually like me, or else they'll be stuck there, complaining, for the rest of their gaming lives. So, when you see a whining post, just ignor it or give some "helping" tips... <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
Definetly true, I would NEVER fire a DE while running or jumping like you do in CS. Or any gun if I could help it. However, in real life, guns are extremely accurate. The guns in CS are innacurate to the point of idiocy, but they are extremely controllable on full-auto. In a moronic twist, the rifles are better full auto then SMGs. Guns also kill in far, far fewer hits (or at the very least, disable) then in CS. Given the choice between a pistol that forced you to stop moving, take a second to aim, but killed in a shot or two, or CS' regular guns, I would take the pistol. This is the problem I had with the AWP - it fit in great with the old player speeds and bunny hopping and all that stuff. But they made every other gun far worse long distance, lowered player speed, removed bunny hopping - with only slight downtweaks of the AWP. Ah well.
"I'm curious, what was different between this beta 5.2 CS and it's current form?"
5.2 was VERY arcade like, as well as the first release with a modern hud and such. The first one that looked truely polished. It still had very high run speeds and the knife speed - you ran like 1/3 faster with knife out. This also added in demolition zones, I believe it was 5.2 anyways. You used to be able to drop the bomb anywhere, which was pretty stupid. Guns were extremely accurate, with super fast reloads. The TMP was easily the equal of the MP5, if you knew how to fire the weapons correctly the great players dominated with everything. Even the glock was excellent in those days, and the USP and glock were pretty well balanced. You could also hold a lot more ammo.. 200 with the rifles if I remember right. The colt had a scope back then. There were only 3 rifles, the aug came in 6.1. The AK was a terrorist, colt was CT, and SIG was shared. I BELIEVE scout was in the game at this point, not positive. The pump shotgun, the Benelli M3 Super 90, fired MUCH faster and did considerably less damage up close but kept it's damage better farther away. There were considerably less weapons - I don't think the MAC was put in at that point, only 4 pistols, no UMP, no dual berettas, no SIG550. Most of the guns added in the recent releases are so much worse then the old guns they don't really matter.. Only exception is the AUG really, and the colt is still used much more. The current TMP model is the same as the old - one of very few to stay the same. Back then, the super fast TMP reload was only average. MP5 was about the same... Going knife only was actually a viable strategy if you knew what you were doing - it killed in two to three hits, only one type of attack. The speed boost helped a lot.
6.1 changed a lot. It lowered player speed, slightly increased weapon hit slowdown, added some new guns, that sort of thing. It felt a lot more like a simulation kind of game, though it still had a strong arcade feeling. 6.1 Benelli M3 was awesome, like all the other guns. M3 had one hit kill headshots out to about 50 or 60 hits all the way until 7.1, at which point they made it horrible for an unknown reason. 6.1 and 6.5 (which was the first version version with the new net code and client side prediction) are my favorite releases, the more arcadeish 5.2 is many peoples favorites.
Over the next releases, they made all weapons much worse and less accurate, made bullet hits slow you down MUCH MUCH more, made shooting in mid air only useful with the rifles, and a bunch of other truely idiotic changes. The game is FAR more random, and now the assault rifles are better then any other weapon in nearly any situation.
"unforuntaly with each subsequent patch it got progressivly worse and I quit it soon after it got patched past 5.2 and havent played it since. "
In my opinion at least, 6.1-6.6 were CS' high point, but for those who like the arcade like 5.2 feel, I definetly understand.
"i started lets see.. hmm .. v 1.1 CS... and well... i was pretty good.. (yes i didn't start in the beta..sue me ) ...
well now.. its already 1.5.. and the game is stupid... well almost.... and n00bs with NO aim can kil me.. with the weird screwed over hitboxes.. thx to the CS dev team... "
Ya know... The game hasn't really changed a lot since 1.0. 1.0 is when they brought in the much worse new models (and took out the injury animations for some reason, as well as nearly all blood). The hitbox bug came into CS in 1.1. 1.0 was a marginal improvement in a few areas and a step back in most others. A few guns regained some accuracy and what have you, but many other crappy changes came with it. 1.0 is the version that tripled weapon hit slowdown.. Ugh. The slight accuracy improvements in 1.0 were removed in 1.1 and on.
I'm just bitter about a great game being deliberately and slowly ruined. I still try to get people to play 6.6 at LAN parties and they never will <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
And about team games, NS is ALSO a team game. You can only be so good in these kind of games. The cone of fire is to NS as recoil is to CS.
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>P.S. Just because a game doesn't have 1122131000 weapons, options, models, skins, textures, whatever! Doesn't mean it sucks. NS itself has very limited amount of weapons for marines. CS is also very appealing for its simplicity. Simplicity CAN be good believe it or not! OMG!</span>
I find losing a game that is still winnable is LOTS of fun. Its when you get to the point that there is no chance of a comeback that it becomes boring and monotonous.
No. While I personally DO miss being a one-man army sometimes ( <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> ), you could only pull that off well against considerably less skilled players. I'm talking the 6.x betas, not 5.2. 5.2 one great player could easily win by himself, but they changed that in the 6.xs. It used to have elements of reality with a fun arcade feeling. Now it has no elements of reality, and no elements of arcadeyness. It is niether realistic nor arcadish, but some terrible third. The only real reason teamplay helps on most servers is because you have two random sprays of bullets instead of one.
Ok, I'm slightly exaggerating the last point, but team play helped a lot in the old betas precisely because a single player could be so powerful. You STILL get one man armys, they're just not rambos. Now they sit and duck in a corner and wipe out 2/3s of the enemy team.
The point is its a TEAM game if it gets to the point where one incredibly good player can take down an intire team then team play will be un-important and it all falls appart.
I would prefer a game in which force of reasonable people who do what their told can beat a group of 'uber' players who're not working together.
BlueGhost
great video, never played TF but that looks cool anyway