Perhaps smartening up some of the people that play this game would be more appropiate <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Teoh: You understand the nuances of fps games and what makes them good for the capable gamer. I think that it's a dying, pointless thread that I have started, but the inevitable future of the game was bothering me, so I had a small, badly explained rant.
I'm glad you took the time to explain the different aspects and make the message clearer to people. If you were an aussie player, I'd recruit you simply from your understanding of fps game fundamentals.
I could provide rebuttals to a lot of the arguments people have put forth here, but I don't think it will matter in the long run. This game is a portfolio. The end goal is to have a huge player base, therefore dumbing down is a necessary evil.
That's not to say I won't come to the forums venting when skill crippling starts (perhaps 1.1?).
It made my day reading your post. That's not easy.
<!--QuoteBegin--KMGor+Jan 6 2003, 12:13 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (KMGor @ Jan 6 2003, 12:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"Haha, what's with the CS bashing? 'Cause you can't be a one-man army? It IS a team game y'know."
No. While I personally DO miss being a one-man army sometimes ( <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> ), you could only pull that off well against considerably less skilled players. I'm talking the 6.x betas, not 5.2. 5.2 one great player could easily win by himself, but they changed that in the 6.xs. It used to have elements of reality with a fun arcade feeling. Now it has no elements of reality, and no elements of arcadeyness. It is niether realistic nor arcadish, but some terrible third. The only real reason teamplay helps on most servers is because you have two random sprays of bullets instead of one.
Ok, I'm slightly exaggerating the last point, but team play helped a lot in the old betas precisely because a single player could be so powerful. You STILL get one man armys, they're just not rambos. Now they sit and duck in a corner and wipe out 2/3s of the enemy team.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> cs is stupid... why? becuase of 1.3-1.5
taking out the constant jumping... so u couldnt jump with the rifles... that made the game HARD.... and they kliled strafing..... and the "use" button to stop quickly.. it screwd everything... why? because n00bs couldn't deal with it... now eveyrone has to crouch and its dead easy for people to aim.. and its annoying for pros because u get headshot so easily
secondly.. all those extra weapons are stupid..... ie.. .the sig and HK auto snipers... the dual berettas... the five seven... no one ever uses those.... pp lbarely use the tmp or mac.... some use the p228.... aug and sig550 are semi used...
the stupidest thing is the xm1014... the auto shotgun... why did they add it? for n00bs.. seriously.. its hold it down in close combat and u most likely win...
i like NS even tho it is starting to get repetative in how people play... iw ish CO would be more creative... btu i admit... i seem to always do that two hive then slowly tear away at them :Pstrat
but i love ns.... because even tho its only a few weapons.. EVEYRTHING is used... its not like 10 different alien races where 5 are good and 5 suck and only the 5 good are used and the other 5 barely have any differences except a name change.... and not 10 different marine weapons where 5 aree only used... its pointless... but thx to the good NS dev team <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> eveyrthing is almost perfect <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> ALMOST <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> heheheh
Bunnyhops gone in 1.1. It's sad. Something like this only bothers people because it stops them from being able to kill someone, and because they can't do it themselves. Oh no, wait, it's because it's not "realistic".
I wonder what will be next.
Perhaps, strafe lag? Slowing down when getting shot? Slower player speed? Big random firing cones for marines, with reduced alien speeds to equalise...?
There are actually a few tricks, or as people who can't do them call "engine exploits" (like rocket jumping in quake) that I know, and almost joked about, but I don't want to hurry their removal. I know the whinging unskilled hordes will eventually communicate more skillful tricks for crippling to the developers, but hopefully not all at once.
I still like to LAN the old CS Betas. Oh baby, there's few things as entertaining as the old glock. Of course, we all know that the CS Beta 1 glock had the coolest sound ever of any of the guns in that game. Like whoa. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
DankAngel, Teoh, I think you and me could be good friends. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> And of course, anyone who still enjoys the old CS Betas. I believe there exists an old website and IRC channel where some people still occasionally meet up for some games. IIRC, www.oldschoolcs.org is the place.
I have nothing left to say, you guys were and are dead right on every point.
DarkAngel, i think i love you. <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo-->
KMGOr: Yes that's exactly it! I wasn't sure what were the reasons to CS becoming terribly boring, I just knew I no longer enjoyed it one bit. Thanks a bunch!<img src='http://foorumit.fffin.com/images/smilies/respekti.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
<!--QuoteBegin--DarkAngel+Dec 31 2002, 07:33 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkAngel @ Dec 31 2002, 07:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Have we done it yet?
How long until this game is focussed on people of limited skill?
Casual gamers. Often when they die from something, regardless of what it is, they'll come here and whine about it, with the other ten thousand players that are, until the developers feel they must be doing something wrong, and bow to their hideously broken wishes.
Eventually, when the game is so incredibly skill limited that when someone with ten times the skill of myself, has to *really struggle* to beat me, because the engine tricks, speed and dexterity of the game have been removed, then they will probably complain less. Probably.
In all seriousness, the CS developers once had a game that (beta 5.2) was for an <admittedly elitist> community of hardcore gamers. If someone had the twitch reflexes and the tactical mind of a genius, he could take out an entire team of fairly skilled players. I'm not talking about the casual gamer who knows which end the bullets come out, but fairly knowledgable players.
But in time, the CS team realised that cs would not earn them money if they appealed to the hardcore gamer market. They made the decision <and a VERY wise one>, that in order to appeal to the majority of gameplayers on this planet (casual gamers), the game would have to be dumbed down so that they wouldn't get their arses caned by the super players around, every time they played, and would therefore love the game, and buy many more copies of halflife.
NS is probably going to go the same way. I know I'll get flamed for being an elitist scumbag, and maybe I am. I liked CS beta 5.2 (but none past that), and I'm a quakeworld deathmatch, teamdeathmatch, and teamfortress fanatic.
All the skill is being taken out of modern games, to make them appeal to the general public. It's pretty sad really. See below for a very entertaining movie of AUS qw community..A game with very high skill LIMITS. (ie: if you are ten times as good as the next guy, the game won't hold you back)
Don't give NS a glass ceiling for skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Everything you say is very true and an eye-opener on the reality of the modern FPS game mod's progression or evolution.
Don't worry though, tons of people will berate you and claim you don't know ****, even though what you say is true.
Personally I despised CS after 1.0 came out because it became full of griefers, cheaters, whiners, and elitists.
I stopped playing and uninstalled CS. Now, over two years later, NS is the first thing to make me reinstall HL. And I love it. But already it's starting to wear on me... the griefers getting things changed that shouldn't be, the modders changing things that are fine or not changing things that should be changed.
I already am starting to get a bit disenchanted with this mod and see it heading the way you do.
Ah well, there will always be something else on the horizon to play a few betas of before we move on to the next mod and the next as each one gets dumbed down until it's playable by everyone and for everyone so it has a wider audience.
Admittedly though, a mod NEEDS a good-sized audience or it won't survive. Even for you - how could you play a mod that there are only a couple dozen players for? Really you need a certain level of dumbing down in order to have a large enough playerbase to keep servers up and full. But there's a fine balance between that level of play and too simple a level of play where it ends up the same as every other mod just with different models and skins.
I do disagree about bunnyhopping though - that is something that wouldn't be in the game at all if Valve had found a way to remove it without impacting the rest of the game's physics. It is not a feature that has Valve's blessing, but is merely a physics bug that people exploit. It's not something meant to be a part of the HL universe, but is instead a problem that exists and is exploited by the players who are able to exploit it.
Don't worry though, it's not something the NS team can remove, but it doesn't fall into the category of "dumbing down" the game even if they could remove it.
Besides, bunnyhopping goes directly towards dumbing down the game - it makes every mod the same bunnyhopping crap just with different models/skins and some variety of weapons.
"KMGOr: Yes that's exactly it! I wasn't sure what were the reasons to CS becoming terribly boring, I just knew I no longer enjoyed it one bit. Thanks a bunch!"
I'm not going to bother to read all 5 pages of this nonsense, I read the first and it was enough, all I have to say is that this is not a deathmatch game, or even a first person shooter. it's a strategy game. ever play starcraft or warcraft or command & conquer??? in single player after about the 5th level it gets REALLY tough. and playing against another person is even harder, especially if you don't know what you're doing. the same for games like chess or go. cs is to ns as checkers is to chess. if you don't have the time or patience to learn how to play, then this isn't the game for you. that's about all there is to say about it.
jus wondering... shouldnt the topic name have been
"please DONT dumb down ns?" haha <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
i finally adjusted to 1.5 and 1.6 comes out
THIS IS THE END OF CS
with the weird GALIL that is is an MP5 recoil wif M4 type bullets... great for n00b sprayers and the famas.. another nonused weapon
and wtf.,.. the ballistic shield is **** seriosuly.......... currently iheard it blocks ALL bullets... de .. awps.. and rifles eveyrhting.,.. lame.... seriuosly... are they trying to kill CS and make it for 7 yr olds???
"look daddy im hiding behind my shield... the bad guys cant kill me" -.- wtf
NS im hoping will never stoop down to this level to get ppl to play.. either we leave it like this and hope ppl continue playing... if they start losing ppl playing.. i hope they let the mod die honorbly and not kill it and make it a baby game <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
jus dun take it consistent jumping its fun to jump dont make "stopping power on bullets" lame like darkangel said
keep everything like it is now.. jus do MINOR tweaks <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Ive been cruising these forums for about a month now (the same length of time ive been playing NS) but this is the first topic that caught my eye that i felt required a response.
In the month that I have been playing, if I've noticed anything it's that NS takes a bit of getting used to. I love the game, but when i first played it i couldnt kill ****. This is not a bad thing. Anyone who enters a game for the first time DESERVES to be eaten a few times, and charged by some Onos. If they dont like it, that's THEIR perogative. I was eaten, shot, sliced, webbed, charged, parasited, grenned, HMGed and i still can't get enough. The problem with gamers today is taht many of them ehar about NS from a friend (probably one of these elitist 'few') and download it. They quickley realise it's not their thing and give up on it. If these are the people that the game was aimed at, very few people would want to play it. The comparisons to starcraft would become ifinitely more common, and you would have people constantly spamming 'FOR TEH OVREMIDN@#!!#!!' and calling themselves 'ZergKilla'. (I know this already happenes, but it would fill the servers) You would have to call the mod 'StarCraft for HL' and remove any aspect of fun at all. The game would become about the commander and no-one else.
On the topic of commander, the commander is really a metaphor for the entire game: consider this: If you changed the responsibilities of the game to make it easier for newbies, you would have to make the commander easier for newbies too. Everyone here has played in a server where the commander goes 'what is a "tf"?' and everyone ehre has BEEN that newbie. Many of you have probably likened to the job, others loathe it. those who loathe it dont comm, those who love it do. perhaps if this is the case then the commander should be removed altogether (sic) so taht newbies know what they are doing.
When you make the game easily played to everyone, you turn it into CS, as previously stated. The one thign that stands out in my ind is cheaters. To be better than everyone else, you develop a community of cheaters who think they're 'l33t' because theyre better than everyone, and have the most kills.
I dont want to play a game that is developed for the masses. An easy game is not enjoyable
excuse this rant for going nowhere, i just had to voice my opinion somewhere.
Comments
I'm glad you took the time to explain the different aspects and make the message clearer to people. If you were an aussie player, I'd recruit you simply from your understanding of fps game fundamentals.
I could provide rebuttals to a lot of the arguments people have put forth here, but I don't think it will matter in the long run. This game is a portfolio. The end goal is to have a huge player base, therefore dumbing down is a necessary evil.
That's not to say I won't come to the forums venting when skill crippling starts (perhaps 1.1?).
It made my day reading your post. That's not easy.
No. While I personally DO miss being a one-man army sometimes ( <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> ), you could only pull that off well against considerably less skilled players. I'm talking the 6.x betas, not 5.2. 5.2 one great player could easily win by himself, but they changed that in the 6.xs. It used to have elements of reality with a fun arcade feeling. Now it has no elements of reality, and no elements of arcadeyness. It is niether realistic nor arcadish, but some terrible third. The only real reason teamplay helps on most servers is because you have two random sprays of bullets instead of one.
Ok, I'm slightly exaggerating the last point, but team play helped a lot in the old betas precisely because a single player could be so powerful. You STILL get one man armys, they're just not rambos. Now they sit and duck in a corner and wipe out 2/3s of the enemy team.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
cs is stupid... why? becuase of 1.3-1.5
taking out the constant jumping... so u couldnt jump with the rifles... that made the game HARD.... and they kliled strafing..... and the "use" button to stop quickly.. it screwd everything... why? because n00bs couldn't deal with it... now eveyrone has to crouch and its dead easy for people to aim.. and its annoying for pros because u get headshot so easily
secondly.. all those extra weapons are stupid..... ie.. .the sig and HK auto snipers... the dual berettas... the five seven... no one ever uses those.... pp lbarely use the tmp or mac.... some use the p228.... aug and sig550 are semi used...
the stupidest thing is the xm1014... the auto shotgun... why did they add it? for n00bs.. seriously.. its hold it down in close combat and u most likely win...
i like NS even tho it is starting to get repetative in how people play... iw ish CO would be more creative... btu i admit... i seem to always do that two hive then slowly tear away at them :Pstrat
but i love ns.... because even tho its only a few weapons.. EVEYRTHING is used... its not like 10 different alien races where 5 are good and 5 suck and only the 5 good are used and the other 5 barely have any differences except a name change.... and not 10 different marine weapons where 5 aree only used... its pointless...
but thx to the good NS dev team <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> eveyrthing is almost perfect <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> ALMOST <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> heheheh
Bunnyhops gone in 1.1. It's sad. Something like this only bothers people because it stops them from being able to kill someone, and because they can't do it themselves. Oh no, wait, it's because it's not "realistic".
I wonder what will be next.
Perhaps, strafe lag? Slowing down when getting shot? Slower player speed? Big random firing cones for marines, with reduced alien speeds to equalise...?
There are actually a few tricks, or as people who can't do them call "engine exploits" (like rocket jumping in quake) that I know, and almost joked about, but I don't want to hurry their removal. I know the whinging unskilled hordes will eventually communicate more skillful tricks for crippling to the developers, but hopefully not all at once.
DankAngel, Teoh, I think you and me could be good friends. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> And of course, anyone who still enjoys the old CS Betas. I believe there exists an old website and IRC channel where some people still occasionally meet up for some games. IIRC, www.oldschoolcs.org is the place.
I have nothing left to say, you guys were and are dead right on every point.
I think it's a better worded <thanks to teoh> explanation of where the game is going, than the "bunnyhopping gone in 1.1" post that has been pinned.
<!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo-->
How long until this game is focussed on people of limited skill?
Casual gamers. Often when they die from something, regardless of what it is, they'll come here and whine about it, with the other ten thousand players that are, until the developers feel they must be doing something wrong, and bow to their hideously broken wishes.
Eventually, when the game is so incredibly skill limited that when someone with ten times the skill of myself, has to *really struggle* to beat me, because the engine tricks, speed and dexterity of the game have been removed, then they will probably complain less. Probably.
In all seriousness, the CS developers once had a game that (beta 5.2) was for an <admittedly elitist> community of hardcore gamers. If someone had the twitch reflexes and the tactical mind of a genius, he could take out an entire team of fairly skilled players. I'm not talking about the casual gamer who knows which end the bullets come out, but fairly knowledgable players.
But in time, the CS team realised that cs would not earn them money if they appealed to the hardcore gamer market. They made the decision <and a VERY wise one>, that in order to appeal to the majority of gameplayers on this planet (casual gamers), the game would have to be dumbed down so that they wouldn't get their arses caned by the super players around, every time they played, and would therefore love the game, and buy many more copies of halflife.
NS is probably going to go the same way. I know I'll get flamed for being an elitist scumbag, and maybe I am. I liked CS beta 5.2 (but none past that), and I'm a quakeworld deathmatch, teamdeathmatch, and teamfortress fanatic.
All the skill is being taken out of modern games, to make them appeal to the general public. It's pretty sad really. See below for a very entertaining movie of AUS qw community..A game with very high skill LIMITS. (ie: if you are ten times as good as the next guy, the game won't hold you back)
<a href='http://qwtf.ausfortress.com/tfde/tfde-hq.avi' target='_blank'>http://qwtf.ausfortress.com/tfde/tfde-hq.avi</a>
Don't give NS a glass ceiling for skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Everything you say is very true and an eye-opener on the reality of the modern FPS game mod's progression or evolution.
Don't worry though, tons of people will berate you and claim you don't know ****, even though what you say is true.
Personally I despised CS after 1.0 came out because it became full of griefers, cheaters, whiners, and elitists.
I stopped playing and uninstalled CS. Now, over two years later, NS is the first thing to make me reinstall HL. And I love it. But already it's starting to wear on me... the griefers getting things changed that shouldn't be, the modders changing things that are fine or not changing things that should be changed.
I already am starting to get a bit disenchanted with this mod and see it heading the way you do.
Ah well, there will always be something else on the horizon to play a few betas of before we move on to the next mod and the next as each one gets dumbed down until it's playable by everyone and for everyone so it has a wider audience.
Admittedly though, a mod NEEDS a good-sized audience or it won't survive. Even for you - how could you play a mod that there are only a couple dozen players for? Really you need a certain level of dumbing down in order to have a large enough playerbase to keep servers up and full. But there's a fine balance between that level of play and too simple a level of play where it ends up the same as every other mod just with different models and skins.
Don't worry though, it's not something the NS team can remove, but it doesn't fall into the category of "dumbing down" the game even if they could remove it.
Besides, bunnyhopping goes directly towards dumbing down the game - it makes every mod the same bunnyhopping crap just with different models/skins and some variety of weapons.
Keep the bunnyhopping to TFC, CS, etc.
Heh. Glad I could point it out.
"please DONT dumb down ns?" haha <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
i finally adjusted to 1.5 and 1.6 comes out
THIS IS THE END OF CS
with the weird GALIL that is is an MP5 recoil wif M4 type bullets... great for n00b sprayers
and the famas.. another nonused weapon
and wtf.,.. the ballistic shield is **** seriosuly.......... currently iheard it blocks ALL bullets... de .. awps.. and rifles eveyrhting.,.. lame.... seriuosly... are they trying to kill CS and make it for 7 yr olds???
"look daddy im hiding behind my shield... the bad guys cant kill me" -.- wtf
NS im hoping will never stoop down to this level to get ppl to play.. either we leave it like this and hope ppl continue playing... if they start losing ppl playing.. i hope they let the mod die honorbly and not kill it and make it a baby game <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
jus dun take it consistent jumping its fun to jump
dont make "stopping power on bullets"
lame like darkangel said
keep everything like it is now.. jus do MINOR tweaks <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
In the month that I have been playing, if I've noticed anything it's that NS takes a bit of getting used to. I love the game, but when i first played it i couldnt kill ****. This is not a bad thing. Anyone who enters a game for the first time DESERVES to be eaten a few times, and charged by some Onos. If they dont like it, that's THEIR perogative. I was eaten, shot, sliced, webbed, charged, parasited, grenned, HMGed and i still can't get enough. The problem with gamers today is taht many of them ehar about NS from a friend (probably one of these elitist 'few') and download it. They quickley realise it's not their thing and give up on it. If these are the people that the game was aimed at, very few people would want to play it. The comparisons to starcraft would become ifinitely more common, and you would have people constantly spamming 'FOR TEH OVREMIDN@#!!#!!' and calling themselves 'ZergKilla'. (I know this already happenes, but it would fill the servers) You would have to call the mod 'StarCraft for HL' and remove any aspect of fun at all. The game would become about the commander and no-one else.
On the topic of commander, the commander is really a metaphor for the entire game:
consider this: If you changed the responsibilities of the game to make it easier for newbies, you would have to make the commander easier for newbies too. Everyone here has played in a server where the commander goes 'what is a "tf"?' and everyone ehre has BEEN that newbie. Many of you have probably likened to the job, others loathe it. those who loathe it dont comm, those who love it do. perhaps if this is the case then the commander should be removed altogether (sic) so taht newbies know what they are doing.
When you make the game easily played to everyone, you turn it into CS, as previously stated. The one thign that stands out in my ind is cheaters. To be better than everyone else, you develop a community of cheaters who think they're 'l33t' because theyre better than everyone, and have the most kills.
I dont want to play a game that is developed for the masses. An easy game is not enjoyable
excuse this rant for going nowhere, i just had to voice my opinion somewhere.