The whole point is for the cc's to look the same. That way people always know what to use / attack no matter what the map is. It's like the recharging stations in halflife and other games. If they always changed per level just to fit in better it would be pretty darn confusing and unconsistent.
Also, if the point of these generic cc's is that they are designed to "jack into" a facility's systems, it would make more sense. If the cc's were designed as something permanent, something that was part of the facility, and yet all looked the same, it wouldn't seem quite as realistic. BTW i like the look of that model, Liquid.
I think the entity cc is a good idea. If anyone thinks it will mess up the way they're map looks they should consider that the command center will probably look very similar to the other marine structures. And if the marine base area they have, doesn't suit the marine structures, then they've got more serious problems than having to redo the command center <!--emo&;)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'><!--endemo-->
The team let us override the model for resource nodes, so we can make the nodes match our maps. I'm fairly sure Flayra will do something similar for the CC.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think the entity cc is a good idea. If anyone thinks it will mess up the way they're map looks they should consider that the command center will probably look very similar to the other marine structures. And if the marine base area they have, doesn't suit the marine structures, then they've got more serious problems than having to redo the command center <!--emo&;)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The difference is, though, the command center is a pre-existing part of the map - part of the building/ship/whatever the map simulates, whereas the marine structures are constructed pieces added by an introduced element (the marines).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin--> The team let us override the model for resource nodes, so we can make the nodes match our maps. I'm fairly sure Flayra will do something similar for the CC. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This requires some modelling ability, though, to actually =make= the replacement model, no?
why must the command center be a part of the map? why cannot it be some (great) laptop or mobile hacking centre which is set up really soon by the marines which they take everywhere with them? this would suit in every map, and it would still fit the theme..
i definitely think a model is a good idea, but moving the command post may not be. i mean, it would be interesting to be able to put this in a different part of the map, but i assume that the mapper knows where the best place to put it is, and should allow for best gameplay...
i REALLY hope mappers have the option of continuing to construct their own custom CC. i found the CCs in hera and bast to be gorgeous and fit extremely well into their maps. i'm sure such an event would arise fairly often with all the talented mappers we have here. now that there is a marine HUD icon to locate the CCs i really dont think finding them will be that much of a problem. however, i am equally supportive of the existence of a standardized CC. for secondary/back up use or even as the primary CC of the map. i would really like to stress my preference for the mappers having the choice as to whether or not they use the standard CC as the primary console or a custom map-specific one.
liquid, i think you're on the right track but maybe some triangular screens flanking the main one and some keypads extending out of the box mouth would make it look a little more functional
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin--> why must the command center be a part of the map? why cannot it be some (great) laptop or mobile hacking centre which is set up really soon by the marines which they take everywhere with them? this would suit in every map, and it would still fit the theme.. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Given that the (first) CC is already there when they arrive, I would think that, yeah, it's part of the pre-existing map. Plus, I mean, look how everyone's already been constructing their CCs in their maps - as integrated pieces.
As long as I've been here it's been known that the CC might be replaced by a model. It is noted in the quick start guide and <i>should</i> be in the guidelines themselves.
If a mapper is reliant on building the CC themselves then they brought it on their own heads by ignoring the guidelines.
This is a CC model i made for Chrome a while ago (dunno if he's gonna use it) but i figured id stick it here. <img src="http://www.jedeyenite.btinternet.co.uk/cc1.gif" border="0"> <img src="http://www.jedeyenite.btinternet.co.uk/cc2.gif" border="0"> Id always thought that the origional consoles were put in the ship/base/factory/whatever when it was built. Kinda like a precaution, by the TSA (or some military org) so it would be okay if they looked out of place, as long as it seemed to be worn or damaged from years and years of just sitting there...
I like that model! It is very different than what I had been thinking, but I could see it working well in the right scenes.
Considering we do see a pretty wide variety of map styles, is it possible to have 3-4 CC models, and allow the mapper to select from them? It could be nothing more than 2 models, each with 2 different skins. I think if you have a CC themed in each color, green, yellow, blue, and white, then I think mappers would find that one fits their map.
realityisdeadEmployed by Raven Software after making ns_nothingJoin Date: 2002-01-26Member: 94Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
While I'm sure the model will be great and will be designed so nicely that it fits in with any theme... I still don't see why one is even needed if the CC waypoint thing that Relic made is there. I know that it's just an option that new players may turn on if they choose... but those are the only players that are going to need help finding the CC's anyways.
I think the CC should come with a different skins so that it can match different kinds of map. The same basic model, but different colourations and conditions. NS_Bast could use a cleaner and intact CC, while NS_Hera would have a dirtier and rustier one, for example.
...And for a map like Penumbra, something with a very clean and commercial look? <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->
I actually like this idea, because if players can recognize the basic form/shape/size of the generic CC, then it wouldn't matter what the skin looked like. Each mapper could create a CC skin themed toward the style of their map, if they wanted to...
Penumbra's CC would look as pristine as the day it popped out of the factory <!--emo&;)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'><!--endemo-->
But I love the shape and style of Uncritical's model, my only concern is the skin for it. It doesn't look too dirty, but I'd still want the option of touching up the skin a bit. I could do that myself since the skin is just a BMP or two.
Okay, to clear things up a bit, the plans are that the cc will now be a marine constructed device. They are able to build it wherever they want and build a new one when it is destroyed. Therefore the look of it will match the style of the marines and their buildings.
The mechanics of all this are of course still subject to change, but this is what is currently planned for implementation of the cc.
realityisdeadEmployed by Raven Software after making ns_nothingJoin Date: 2002-01-26Member: 94Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
Woah, anywhere they want? That will really change things up for the gameplay. I can just imagine some of the possibilities.
It's a good thing, regardless. Or has the potential to be at least. <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->
I think lots of mappers will be relieved i think if the marines can build it anywhere, tho maybe a pain in the ### for the mappers that worked long and hard on their layouts..
I guess it's good that I'm still planning my map out, that's one less room I need to make *scratches off list*.
What I think will be interesting is the new strategies created by being able to build the CC anywhere. Will the marines be able to "disassemble" the CC and rebuild it somewhere else, without it having to be destroyed, or is it too early to determine that?
This is purely theoretical, but my guess is perhaps an option that exists for all marine players at the beginning of a round, but as soon as someone builds a CC, the option becomes inactive or "ghosted" for any other players....
coilAmateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance.Join Date: 2002-04-12Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
I actually had an idea like this... the CC for my map was going to be a "remote station" - a laptop, satellite linkup, etc. - all plugged in, hardwired, to the station's onboard network. Portable, versatile, powerful. I'd argue for that type of design - to be "in-world," the CC would have to be something the marines carried in with them (theoretically).
One caveat, though..... if ANY marine can build a CC, you open up a HUGE l4mr exploit - namely, really really POOR placement. Additionally, keep in mind that the hives, while they are built by the builders, are restricted to only 3 locations in the map... If you give the marines the ability to build the CC ANYWHERE, they're gonna be able to find and use a limited-access, easily defensible place to set up. It will make things a LOT more difficult for the aliens.
Yeah, Coil. That's a good point. Once we learn the specifics of how this is actually going to work, I think that then we'll have a better idea of how this could possibly be exploited. Anyways, I'm sure that it'll get worked out in playtesting somehow.
Generally, yeah, Coil, I agree. However, the same places that could be abused as CC spots will be used by commanders to secret away upgrade buildings as well. I think the issue is more with maps and how they are designed.
For example, in ns_elysium the marine's spawn is a cramped corvette with a narrow airlock as the only access. I decided a while back that it would have to be a nobuild area. That means really the only uses of that area are for spawning and an occaisonal last stand effort. Seems acceptable to me.
<b>Idea:</b> Perhaps giving mappers the ability to specifiy which areas are suitable for a CC, much in the same way a CS mapper specifies bombsites?
This would alow for multiple locations, rebuilding, and more flexibilty without making mappers hunt through their entire map to make sure all inappropriate CC locations are blocked off.
humbabaThat Exciting Tales From the Frontline GuyJoin Date: 2002-01-25Member: 86Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
I like killtoy's train of thought. As much as that it would be a lot of work, I think that a special marker that allows mappers to choose where comm stations can be built would be good. Maybe they could even require a special little link up or . . to save trouble you could treat them as a resource collector also (but only buildable if you dont have one) and have them be placeable on top of nozzles. Otherwise, were going to see some pretty nasty things with CC's hidden behind crates in some far away corner of a map as well as what has already been mentioned, a marine player plopping it down, say . . in the middle of a big room with entrances for all the hives.
It actually makes sense that the mapper can define where the CC's can be built. He has his own vision for the map, knows it by heart really good, and has ideas about gameflow, chokepoints and game balance. What he chooses for the CC spots would have a major effect on the map tactics for both sides.
I'd have to agree that building the Commander Console anywhere would be a major exploit. A mapper can't ensure that every area would be suitable, that would cause the layout to look rather dull. There'd be much fewer chokepoints, no deadends, and every area would be as defensible as the last.
A much better solution is to place little 'uplink' sprites around the map at locations suitable for building a Commander Console. These sprites would only be visible to marine players, and would indicate that building a Command Console around the sprite is legal (The radius around the sprite could be set within the entity). Just place some electronic equipment in the same room so it makes sense as to what the Console is plugging into, and voila.
So most mappers that have made detailed Commander Console rooms can keep those rooms as-is, then just make some small computer terminals at a few other locations that make sense (Most of the maps have computers and monitors all over the place, so this isn't a problem), and drop a 'team_console' entity in those rooms. Done.
The option of dismantling the Commander Console would be rather interesting. Commander & Conquer: Red Alert had an option for this you could toggle, so you could pack up your MCV and move to a better spot, then build up a new base.
Comments
The difference is, though, the command center is a pre-existing part of the map - part of the building/ship/whatever the map simulates, whereas the marine structures are constructed pieces added by an introduced element (the marines).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->
The team let us override the model for resource nodes, so we can make the nodes match our maps. I'm fairly sure Flayra will do something similar for the CC.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This requires some modelling ability, though, to actually =make= the replacement model, no?
now that there is a marine HUD icon to locate the CCs i really dont think finding them will be that much of a problem.
however, i am equally supportive of the existence of a standardized CC. for secondary/back up use or even as the primary CC of the map.
i would really like to stress my preference for the mappers having the choice as to whether or not they use the standard CC as the primary console or a custom map-specific one.
liquid, i think you're on the right track but maybe some triangular screens flanking the main one and some keypads extending out of the box mouth would make it look a little more functional
why must the command center be a part of the map? why cannot it be some (great) laptop or mobile hacking centre which is set up really soon by the marines which they take everywhere with them? this would suit in every map, and it would still fit the theme..
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Given that the (first) CC is already there when they arrive, I would think that, yeah, it's part of the pre-existing map. Plus, I mean, look how everyone's already been constructing their CCs in their maps - as integrated pieces.
If a mapper is reliant on building the CC themselves then they brought it on their own heads by ignoring the guidelines.
<img src="http://www.jedeyenite.btinternet.co.uk/cc1.gif" border="0">
<img src="http://www.jedeyenite.btinternet.co.uk/cc2.gif" border="0">
Id always thought that the origional consoles were put in the ship/base/factory/whatever when it was built. Kinda like a precaution, by the TSA (or some military org) so it would be okay if they looked out of place, as long as it seemed to be worn or damaged from years and years of just sitting there...
Considering we do see a pretty wide variety of map styles, is it possible to have 3-4 CC models, and allow the mapper to select from them? It could be nothing more than 2 models, each with 2 different skins. I think if you have a CC themed in each color, green, yellow, blue, and white, then I think mappers would find that one fits their map.
*shrugs*
I actually like this idea, because if players can recognize the basic form/shape/size of the generic CC, then it wouldn't matter what the skin looked like. Each mapper could create a CC skin themed toward the style of their map, if they wanted to...
But I love the shape and style of Uncritical's model, my only concern is the skin for it. It doesn't look too dirty, but I'd still want the option of touching up the skin a bit. I could do that myself since the skin is just a BMP or two.
The mechanics of all this are of course still subject to change, but this is what is currently planned for implementation of the cc.
Man... this changes EVERYTHING....
It's a good thing, regardless. Or has the potential to be at least. <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->
What I think will be interesting is the new strategies created by being able to build the CC anywhere. Will the marines be able to "disassemble" the CC and rebuild it somewhere else, without it having to be destroyed, or is it too early to determine that?
One caveat, though..... if ANY marine can build a CC, you open up a HUGE l4mr exploit - namely, really really POOR placement. Additionally, keep in mind that the hives, while they are built by the builders, are restricted to only 3 locations in the map... If you give the marines the ability to build the CC ANYWHERE, they're gonna be able to find and use a limited-access, easily defensible place to set up. It will make things a LOT more difficult for the aliens.
For example, in ns_elysium the marine's spawn is a cramped corvette with a narrow airlock as the only access. I decided a while back that it would have to be a nobuild area. That means really the only uses of that area are for spawning and an occaisonal last stand effort. Seems acceptable to me.
<b>Idea:</b> Perhaps giving mappers the ability to specifiy which areas are suitable for a CC, much in the same way a CS mapper specifies bombsites?
This would alow for multiple locations, rebuilding, and more flexibilty without making mappers hunt through their entire map to make sure all inappropriate CC locations are blocked off.
A much better solution is to place little 'uplink' sprites around the map at locations suitable for building a Commander Console. These sprites would only be visible to marine players, and would indicate that building a Command Console around the sprite is legal (The radius around the sprite could be set within the entity). Just place some electronic equipment in the same room so it makes sense as to what the Console is plugging into, and voila.
So most mappers that have made detailed Commander Console rooms can keep those rooms as-is, then just make some small computer terminals at a few other locations that make sense (Most of the maps have computers and monitors all over the place, so this isn't a problem), and drop a 'team_console' entity in those rooms. Done.
The option of dismantling the Commander Console would be rather interesting. Commander & Conquer: Red Alert had an option for this you could toggle, so you could pack up your MCV and move to a better spot, then build up a new base.