Marine spawning only costs res in Tournament mode so far as I can tell...
I find that shorter games lack the tension of long games. It's too damn quick. If the aliens rush and win, Yay, wow, we rushed. If the marines rush and spawn camp the hive, yay, wow, we rushed. If it's a long drawn intense battle for that second hive, the tension mounts, individual skill begins to make or break the game. So does strategy. Does the team OC rush that outpost or skulk rush it? How are the aliens going to take down that HA death squad heading to their only hive, will marines make a successful relocation when their spawn has been thrashed?
It is the tension that makes the victory, or defeat, of long games all the more satisfying. Would you rather play a long drawn, intense, high strung match? Or a quick in and out we rush about type of match?
I've said this once, and I will say it again for posterity. Long Live The Long Game!
Nope, spawning NEVER costs resources. This was tried and was discarded because it made the commander frustrated and made him scream over voice comm: "Nobody MOVE. Just stay where you are and guard the base...stop dying!". Maybe it could work in the future with a different model.
I guess my beef with long games is less about the fact that they are long, and more about the fact that they aren't potent, or that they're diluted. If all the strategy, action and cool moments that happen in a 2 hour game can be compressed down in to a 12 minute game, I'm all for that. I don't like long periods of time where people are attacking, dying, respawning, attacking the same area, etc. I want there to always be progression, and for the battlefield to be changing and growing.
I probably over-exaggerated a bit with the 11 minute comment. What will probably happen is that the really long boring games will happen much less often, thus bringing the overall average down a bit. I am thinking that the tech should be more along these lines (sorry I'm not going into much detail about what each level means):
This should be the best case, assuming players are just going for resources and teching up as fast as they can. If there is intense battling and resource expenditure at any level, the tech for that side won't be increasing, thus delaying the tech level.
So don't worry much about the reduced game time, think of it as "higher intensity" games without long periods of stalemate or downtime.
<!--QuoteBegin--Umbraed Monkey+Mar 28 2003, 02:32 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Umbraed Monkey @ Mar 28 2003, 02:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> im guessing in Flayra's post, when he says 'Advanced', he means 'Alien'.
/me watches people race to stick this in 1.1 info thread <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Don't think so. More like tier 1.5, 2.5, 3.5.
<!--QuoteBegin--Savant+Mar 27 2003, 12:40 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Savant @ Mar 27 2003, 12:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I tend to agree with Coil and the rest here. I enjoy the longer games WITH a proviso...
The longer games need to stay balanced.
What I've found with many of the longer games is that it ends up with one side being resigned to a loss but being forced to play anyway. (thus the problem with F4.)
The key to GOOD long games is in the balance. If the game can keep balance and FUN as it progresses, the long games can be VERY enjoyable. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Regards,
Savant <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Very true, but either way, no matter if that happens or not, I don't want 11 minute games, I came here to escape CS, not play another CS.
To the optimist the glass is half full. To the pessimist the glass is half empty. To the programmer the glass is double the size it needs to be!
Only time i've ever minded long games is on big servers (13 v 13 etc) - Marines have too much of an advantage with the res system and generally no matter how hard you try they can beat aliens once they have the foothold (not hard to gain at the start).
With smaller teams Give me the challenge of being on the losing team any day! You know that the enemy can't just keep respawning in with enormous res forever. Restrict them of res points, hit some strategic locations and they will find it hard.
The community isn't after fast games, just balanced games. The constant struggles that go for hours - they are cherished <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Even if you lose, you know you had your chance!
4) Profit! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> More like Gen-Get banned by a Kyle Bannit wannabe who bans you for making a light, unoffensive joke. Nice to know some Genmay people play NS.
<!--QuoteBegin--Flayra+Mar 28 2003, 09:55 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flayra @ Mar 28 2003, 09:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I guess my beef with long games is less about the fact that they are long, and more about the fact that they aren't potent, or that they're diluted. If all the strategy, action and cool moments that happen in a 2 hour game can be compressed down in to a 12 minute game, I'm all for that. I don't like long periods of time where people are attacking, dying, respawning, attacking the same area, etc. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I do <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
If you've finally secured a critical outpost after ten\twenty minutes of desperate fighting, the sense of achievement is incredible. Trying to single handedly hold the Red Room against JP\HMG for even five minutes, desperately waiting for reinforcements show up, is exhillerating. The long, intense, desperate games which leave you utterly drained at the end... NS is the only game I've played which does that. Condensing that into ten minutes would be like... being strapped to the underside of a rocket. Or watching a movie in fast-forward.
i don't want something that is like a round of CS... .that will kill nS>... ns is supposed ot be .. letting the alines get two hives and then having HMG and HA... and letting the two teams fight it out... THAT is NS.... a game should last 1-2 hours
my god..... flay better not shorten it >.< haha
cuz yeah.. and more an dmore... when we acutally GET those tuypes of games.. the comm makes the horrible mistake of JP and HMG.... then everyone flies of to die... HA will keep us together <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> sigh
First few games I played were long. Many times I had to quit before the game was over because they lasted too long. It was great fun and I would probably not have played the game a second time with these short games I now experience more and more. I am used to TFC clanwars with two maps each 30 minutes. This is imho not too much for clangames. Not every long game in NS is good. Sometimes the marines just secure 2 hives in the early game while aliens do not even have a chance of a comeback but the marines do not kill them... they tech up 20+ minutes, get HA/HMG/JP and turret farms in every hive. These games are quite boring.
On the other hand there a sometimes these epic battles. And it goes most time the same way. Marines secure one hive, aliens stop them from getting the second hive and build defense while marines try to get the hive over and over again. Well, I never play on servers with less than 16 players because I never experienced a game like this with that few players.
People can play their short games in clanwars if they like to but I really hope the long epic battles remain out there.
I think what Flayra meant was that these long games where one side has an upper hand (most often marines) and the loosing side (typically aliens) has an incredibly small chance of winning, but the game keeps going on with no fun for one side... - those games won't exist, or the chance of them will decrease. No matter what the model, I think there will still be an opportunity for those long, epic struggles, with both sides trying hard to get the upper hand.
Because Flayra said the average time of games will decrease. And I think most long-lasting games are of the marine-having-advantage-and-game-drags-on-and-on-while-aliens-die-and-die-for-nothing type. With less of these, the <i>average</i> game length will decrease, but the long, really fun games should still exist.
Cummon, peeps. Have trust in Flayra. He's trying to make the game work out well.
I think that a lot of people are overreacting. After reading Flayra's post (and trying to make sense of what that "tier" thing was about), I have decided that I'm not worried. I think that FLayra knows what he is doing andwill not remove any of the depth of strategy from NS. He will merely work to remove the periods where a) Marines lock down 2 hives but sit there and get the whole team to have HA/HMG/Welders to kill the aliens in a "blaze of glory" (no pun intended) or b) The aliens get fades, relegate the marines into their original spawn, and then play footsy until the entire team can go Onos.
Those games I do not enjoy.
The long games that are fun are those where each team has 1 hive, and an intense battle for the second one happens. If the marines win, its mostly over. If the aliens win, it is still fun because that can still be evenly matched. I played a game where I sat down, we reached fades, and then the second hive changed hands about a dozen times, and there were intense battles the entire time. I stood up, and 4 hours had passed by. It was incredible.
I think these games will still be possible (or at least I hope so), while the other games will not.
Flayra is absolutely right. In NS right now, the vast majority of longish games are not fun and balanced; they are decided in 10-20 minutes max and the rest of the time is just one team waiting for inevitable defeat. 1.1 will make all the teching take place in the first 10-15 minutes. The rest of the game will be EXACTLY what you guys like in the best long games; teched up teams duking it out.
An average game where one team is the clear victor will not drag on as long since they reach their highest tech levels faster. No longer are the days of half the games just dragging on and on when everybody knows who's going to win.
Once both teams are teched up, if they're evenly matched, the game will go on very similarly to how it does right now. You can fight back and forth for hives, gain and lose ground, etc. <b>With evenly balanced teams, games CAN still go on for 30+ minutes!</b> If you're lucky you can still get those long, heated games that you all seem to crave for. Gone(hopefully) will be the days of the long, drawn out games where the winning team feels no pressure and just takes their time.
Long drawn out battles, where the tide of power ebbs back and forth between either side, with an amazing feat of heroics deciding the final outcome = good.
sitting in your 1 hive waiting for the marines to tech up so they can kill you = bad.
I hope this is more what Flay is trying to say...it would suck if games were all 11 minutes long...the best games are the ones you play and then 15 minutes later realize hioly **** 5 hours have gone by.
<!--QuoteBegin--Kazyras+Mar 27 2003, 01:20 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kazyras @ Mar 27 2003, 01:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I really don't see the appeal of super long games. Unless the gameplay is incredibly deep, varied and allows for a lot of creativity (it isn't in NS, at least not yet), long drawn out games tend to be yawn fests. In basically every RTS, games that last too long (in SC it's about after 30-35 minutes) degenerate into masses of high tech fully upgraded units duking it out. There is no strategy in this, and barely any tactics. Where's the rushing? The harrassing? The scouting? The faking your opponent out? The ambushing? (ambushes that MATTER, i.e. if your opponent can get his army back in less than a min, it doesn't count) The trying to read your opponent's mind? The small yet highly important skirmishes that could dictate the rest of the game? The critical decisions to make? The risks to take? The deadly mistakes to avoid? There's none of that. It's just "I'm rich, you're rich, let's throw units at each other!" Lame.
I don't recall any good SC player ever claiming to fondly recall a 1+ hour long stalemate. Usually they recall strange games where they pulled an unusual strategy/tactic that worked well. Or a particularly intense game that was very well played on both sides. These kinds of games are usually short, though not necessarily so, however they're very, very rarely long games. There's a point in almost every strategy game where beyond it is just more of the same for many minutes or god forbids, hours. (Fades VS HA anyone? It HAS to STOP at some point, the sooner the better)
I THINK Flayra is like-minded on this, hence why he wants to shorten average game time to allow for faster and more disversified/interesting gameplay thanks to several promising 1.1 changes. As of 1.04, it's painfully limited and repetitive. I don't see why NS players like stalemates as much as they do. I mean, there are so many fades/lerks vs HA/HMG/GL battles in a row that I can endure before I get sick of playing and wish a new game would start. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When a game is evenly matched, it forces you to *become* more creative, or else your opponent will do so and destroy you. It is in evenly matched games that new strategies to be used - when you are in a stalemate, you will be forced do something that is either exceedingly brilliant and so unexpected that it overwhelms the other side, or fails miserably and ends up in defeat. Why? If you stick to the same strategy that you used to get to the stalemate, the game will stay that way indefinitely (without respect to luck or random chance). If the game is not evenly matched, then the winning team will not be forced to use strategy - they will only press their advantage until you are dead. This is not what we want. Unfortunately, there isn't enough depth to the aliens atm to be able to have any sort of unpredictability to their strategy.
To the dev team - I think the forumites are right; being victorious after a long uphill battle over some critical area only to have to head off to another area that is now being pressured is a great feeling, and if you wanted there to be 'constant progression' then you should just ask the players to 'lay down your weapons and surrender whenever you see incoming forces' rather than trying to hold the fort desperately.
If you truly want a constantly dynamic "front" that aliens and marines fight over and try to move in their favor, then I ask you - is implementing an electrified TF in accordance with that kind of philosophy? I'm not saying this is a bad thing per se, but resistance should not be futile. Anyway, if I misunderstood Flay's post, sorry.
I'll give you an example of a long game that I was in just now, which pretty much happens every time a clearly lopsided game goes this long:
We were marines. When I joined we had jetpacks and HMGs and they had 2 hives, so I assume it had been going on a little while already. About 5 minutes later we rushed to PowerSilo, wiped out their hive and built up there.
Skip to at least half an hour later. Everybody has HAs and HMGs, and I have no idea what the hell half of them are doing. We already spent more time than we needed to teching up(we probably could have finished Via with the same tech level we killed Silo at), but now people are running around taking out whatever they can without an organized push. The aliens have turtled in Via, so the only way to kill the hive is to push through OC/DC walls. Nobody really feels like doing that, and those that might can't get everybody else to agree with them, so instead we wander around and just try to completely dominate the entire map(except, of course, Viaduct). Comms are entering and leaving the chair primarily just to drop equipment, and the one-hive aliens are completely incapable of taking one of their hives back. We have about 4 IPs in Cargo. At this rate, the game isn't going to end until the aliens stop attacking(so we won't have to defend) and the only alien structures on the map are near their hive.
You get the picture. The game must have been going for at least an hour when I got disconnected, so I'm not sure how long it went on.
Flayra isn't trying to make NS into short and intense deathmatches. He's trying to eliminate ridiculous scenarios like that which only make the game tedious and boring.
Well, I do like the longer (about 30-60 Min) games a lot, whenever it is about fighting for territory, resnodes or hives. Flay seems not to like the thing of attacking, failing and attacking againg... erhaps failing another time... but HEY, THAT'S LIFE <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> No really... as somebody mentioned before, a 15.Min-Game can alsmost never be as fullfilling that winning as a longer game where you had to fight hard for victory.
Shortening the average playtime would take a lot of fun away ecspecially for experienced players. I fear it COULD end just as WC3... don't get me wrong, WC3 is a nice game and the races are quite balanced... but in Multiplayer it is really crappy to me... players build their rush-army, engage the enemy and the winner of that first battle is the winner of the game. I've seen lot's of players on a tournament on a LAN-party giving up their matches after the first fight.. cause they knew it was useless to go on.
It's this kind of "unforgiveness" that i fear might find it's may into NS. Right now spending resources for weapons instead of upgrades just to see your marines getting mowed down by a single skulk is in fact a bad thing... a total waste of resources... but this mistake may not be the final event that leads to your loss of the game. With a shorter playtime this game could get like a advanced version of "Stone - Scissors - Paper": -you choose your tactic -enemy chooses tactic -the teams engage each other -the team loosing that first encounter will lose the game if other team is not too incompetent... All my hope are on the Playtesters... I really belive in their good work and that they represent the intentions of the community... But the FEAR is still there that he DEPTH of NS might decrease because of the Dev-Team wants more ACTION (imho a good round of ns lifes by the repeating changing of tempo, not pure action)
-just my 2 cent- -contructive comments are welcome, flames are not-
Flay I trust you to create in NS 1.1 an even more kick a$$ game than we currently have (which is extremely kick a$$).
However the first thought that came into my head was this:
Skulks rushing a location need to meet up prior to the rush, waiting outside the target area until everyone is ready. This can take quite a while. I usually try to get the skulks there 1 minute after announcing that we're going to attack this area (yes even if a lone marine has been seen entering there), because 2 skulks may die easily to one marine in some circumstances, but an entire team rushing will be able to take down all the marines and the phase gate/ turret factory in one (maybe 2) rushes easily. In the time it takes to build up to, and effect an attack, what Flay is saying (my interpretation) is that the tech tree would have been more thoroughly advanced than currently. This troubles me.
HOWEVER, with 1.1 and the availability of different life forms at 1 hive, the battle for res nodes will be AS IMPORTANT as the battle for hives. At present, it's all very well for the aliens to control all but 2 res nodes on the map, but if they only have 1 hive, the marines will turtle up and get HMGs/JPs/HA/GL etc before the aliens can do anything. At that point the slow march to death that we all hate so much begins and so does the F4ing (haha but not on my server any more woohoo). In 1.1 I'm anticipating an alien team with 1 hive but most of the resnodes to be a much more powerful entity than a team with 2 hives and only 1 or 2 res nodes.
This need for greater resnode control will affect both aliens and marines - after all, at present it's the case that "if marines get the double res", the aliens will probably lose because the marines can tech up very quickly. In the new version, I expect it to be a case of "if the aliens get the double res nodes we'll have onos and fades on our hands before we can scream BINGO!" as well as the above statement, meaning a common objective for each race for their advancement.
U sound like aliens cant win in the first 10min with even teams the aliens distract the marines at first hive then spawn kill em so easy they dont get turrets or tf cause they tech rush so its easy <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I like long games waaaaay more than the short games. About 2-3 hours is good for me
What i really hate tho is ppl who just camp outside a hieve and <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> the hell outta it
I guarantee you've never played a 4 hour round. This thread is an exaggeration magnet. Hell, I doubt most of you even have played a 1.5 hour round, which in of itself is tremendously long.
If you can't even get the facts straight about how long a round that you recent played was, there's no use in posting. Yet people seem to somehow believe they're being objective about experiencing and subsequently wanting more 2 hour games.
The only possible way I can think of surpassing the 2 hour mark would be a 1 gorge vs comm + lone marine game.
<!--QuoteBegin--babygirl+Mar 26 2003, 10:22 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (babygirl @ Mar 26 2003, 10:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Everybody laments about the loss of the 'long game'. What people don't realize here is that the 'long game' is totally pointless, as it usually revolves around one team locking down two hives and taking their sweet time while the other team just dies again and again and again and again. This is why most people are upset - they won't be able to play these cheese matches on public servers where two hive lockdowns, once pulled off, stick for the whole round and condemn the opposing team to a slow, slow death.
I, for one, am looking foward to more invigorating gameplay instead of sitting around for 15-20 minutes thinking, "why doesn't the other team just kill us already?" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Usually...but I've played about a dozen plus games where the entire game was on the edge. Depending on your strategy you might not be able to run into a hive all gung ho like. You may have to work to it slowly since the aliens usually pester your outposts and take a lot from your human resources. Honestly when I'm comm sometimes it takes me forever to kill the aliens, even with the third hive because there's such a concentration of enemies. I just try to save up, get a bunch of HA or JPers and work into the hive, maybe building siege on the way.
On the other hand I've played numerous games where the other skulks and I rushed an enemy base, totally destroyed it and the game was over in around 3 minutes or less. I HATE those games, even if we did perform well. I prefer evenly matched games that are FUN and not just brutal slaughter <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->.
In closing I've had many games being over a hour long and I enjoyed them. They weren't games where we sit around and let the enemy live as we bask in the glory of 'pwning' <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->. Even if that's most of the games you experience, you may want to try different servers with more sporting people <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->.
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
Actually, I've been in a v1.03 game that ran for over four hours. It was PAINFULLY intense, due to the fact that we (I was playing on the Alien side) kept losing and regaining our second Hive. Thing is, it kept switching around... we'd almost have taken out the Hive the Marines had locked down, and they'd take out one of our other two. We'd either crunch through the already-weakened defenses and put up the new Hive, or fall back to re-take the hive under attack. There was no JP/HMG rush. We'd kept their resources limited, so there was no HMG/HA crush. We had no GL spammage, excepting one brief incident. It was GREAT, and everyone was virtually screaming when we got back into the RR, because it was SO FREAKING INTENSE. We even went down to zero-hive and brought it back, because of the lack of the PITA Ping-of-Death.
On another note... eleven minutes? I hope Flayra takes into account the time it takes to build a Hive... usually you're saving *up* for around eleven minutes just to get the RP to toss the second one up. Never mind the three-to-five-minute build time, plus any gestations for the individual aliens.
Aliens' greatest foe is the time involved, currently. Hopefully if the Marines will be able to tech up to max in nine minutes (!) by Flay's timetable, the Aliens will see a similar boost in effectiveness. Otherwise, we'll be reduced to watching HA/HMG stormtroopers stomping over the single-Hive Aliens game after game.
I'll put my trust in for the time being... but I must admit. The expected lightning-rounds worry me more than just a little.
<!--QuoteBegin--Wheeee+Mar 29 2003, 04:51 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Mar 29 2003, 04:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->When a game is evenly matched, it forces you to *become* more creative, or else your opponent will do so and destroy you. It is in evenly matched games that new strategies to be used - when you are in a stalemate, you will be forced do something that is either exceedingly brilliant and so unexpected that it overwhelms the other side, or fails miserably and ends up in defeat. Why? If you stick to the same strategy that you used to get to the stalemate, the game will stay that way indefinitely (without respect to luck or random chance). If the game is not evenly matched, then the winning team will not be forced to use strategy - they will only press their advantage until you are dead. This is not what we want. Unfortunately, there isn't enough depth to the aliens atm to be able to have any sort of unpredictability to their strategy.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nothing I already don't know. Thing is, NS as of now does NOT allow for any creativity whatsoever in the strategy department and tactics are fairly limited, and you said so yourself (for the aliens at least.) This is why I don't understand why so many people claim to absolutely adore 2+ hours long game. Those are just stalemates with the same damn things happening over and over again until a team manages to win some way or another, usually by attrition or aggravation.
I'd rather have a series of interesting 11 minute long games, each one different from the next, than a long **** 2+ hours one whose development I could predict before actually playing it out. Besides, I don't have that much time to sink in a single game of NS, and it's not like it's gonna be entertaining either. I've had 2, count them, TWO long (~1+ hourish) games TOTAL that I would deem as "fun". The rest were mind-numbing yawnfests of the OMG make it stop already. The vast majority of my fun games were, win or loss, relatively short ones. (~15-35ish minutes)
These long "turtled" games are not at all unique or interesting. They depend on having players with FPS skills and Flayra wants to eliminate that by shortening game time and forcing more strategic tactics, instead of the INCREDIBLY boring turtle/lockdown strats.
Comments
I find that shorter games lack the tension of long games. It's too damn quick. If the aliens rush and win, Yay, wow, we rushed. If the marines rush and spawn camp the hive, yay, wow, we rushed. If it's a long drawn intense battle for that second hive, the tension mounts, individual skill begins to make or break the game. So does strategy. Does the team OC rush that outpost or skulk rush it? How are the aliens going to take down that HA death squad heading to their only hive, will marines make a successful relocation when their spawn has been thrashed?
It is the tension that makes the victory, or defeat, of long games all the more satisfying. Would you rather play a long drawn, intense, high strung match? Or a quick in and out we rush about type of match?
I've said this once, and I will say it again for posterity. Long Live The Long Game!
I guess my beef with long games is less about the fact that they are long, and more about the fact that they aren't potent, or that they're diluted. If all the strategy, action and cool moments that happen in a 2 hour game can be compressed down in to a 12 minute game, I'm all for that. I don't like long periods of time where people are attacking, dying, respawning, attacking the same area, etc. I want there to always be progression, and for the battlefield to be changing and growing.
I probably over-exaggerated a bit with the 11 minute comment. What will probably happen is that the really long boring games will happen much less often, thus bringing the overall average down a bit. I am thinking that the tech should be more along these lines (sorry I'm not going into much detail about what each level means):
Game start -> Marine Tier 0, Alien Tier 1
~30 seconds -> Marine Tier 1 (IPs and/or armory...yes, IP is optional now for "Iron man" choice!)
~1 minute -> Advanced Tier 1
4 minutes -> Tier 2
~5 minutes -> Advanced Tier 2
8 minutes -> Tier 3
~9 minutes -> Advanced Tier 3
This should be the best case, assuming players are just going for resources and teching up as fast as they can. If there is intense battling and resource expenditure at any level, the tech for that side won't be increasing, thus delaying the tech level.
So don't worry much about the reduced game time, think of it as "higher intensity" games without long periods of stalemate or downtime.
/me watches people race to stick this in 1.1 info thread
/me watches people race to stick this in 1.1 info thread <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't think so. More like tier 1.5, 2.5, 3.5.
/me goes <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo-->
The longer games need to stay balanced.
What I've found with many of the longer games is that it ends up with one side being resigned to a loss but being forced to play anyway. (thus the problem with F4.)
The key to GOOD long games is in the balance. If the game can keep balance and FUN as it progresses, the long games can be VERY enjoyable. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Regards,
Savant <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very true, but either way, no matter if that happens or not, I don't want 11 minute games, I came here to escape CS, not play another CS.
Please Flay, reconsider.
To the pessimist the glass is half empty.
To the programmer the glass is double the size it needs to be!
Only time i've ever minded long games is on big servers (13 v 13 etc) - Marines have too much of an advantage with the res system and generally no matter how hard you try they can beat aliens once they have the foothold (not hard to gain at the start).
With smaller teams Give me the challenge of being on the losing team any day! You know that the enemy can't just keep respawning in with enormous res forever. Restrict them of res points, hit some strategic locations and they will find it hard.
The community isn't after fast games, just balanced games. The constant struggles that go for hours - they are cherished <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Even if you lose, you know you had your chance!
Slap them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gen[M]ay style:
1) Find one person who wont't agree.
2) Slap them.
3) ...
4) Profit!
Slap them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gen[M]ay style:
1) Find one person who wont't agree.
2) Slap them.
3) ...
4) Profit! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
More like Gen-Get banned by a Kyle Bannit wannabe who bans you for making a light, unoffensive joke. Nice to know some Genmay people play NS.
I do <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
If you've finally secured a critical outpost after ten\twenty minutes of desperate fighting, the sense of achievement is incredible. Trying to single handedly hold the Red Room against JP\HMG for even five minutes, desperately waiting for reinforcements show up, is exhillerating. The long, intense, desperate games which leave you utterly drained at the end... NS is the only game I've played which does that. Condensing that into ten minutes would be like... being strapped to the underside of a rocket. Or watching a movie in fast-forward.
Or deathmatch.
i don't want something that is like a round of CS... .that will kill nS>... ns is supposed ot be .. letting the alines get two hives
and then having HMG and HA... and letting the two teams fight it out... THAT is NS.... a game should last 1-2 hours
my god..... flay better not shorten it >.<
haha
cuz yeah.. and more an dmore... when we acutally GET those tuypes of games.. the comm makes the horrible mistake of JP and HMG.... then everyone flies of to die... HA will keep us together <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> sigh
Not every long game in NS is good. Sometimes the marines just secure 2 hives in the early game while aliens do not even have a chance of a comeback but the marines do not kill them... they tech up 20+ minutes, get HA/HMG/JP and turret farms in every hive. These games are quite boring.
On the other hand there a sometimes these epic battles. And it goes most time the same way. Marines secure one hive, aliens stop them from getting the second hive and build defense while marines try to get the hive over and over again. Well, I never play on servers with less than 16 players because I never experienced a game like this with that few players.
People can play their short games in clanwars if they like to but I really hope the long epic battles remain out there.
I think 20-30 mins games would be perfect.
No matter what the model, I think there will still be an opportunity for those long, epic struggles, with both sides trying hard to get the upper hand.
Because Flayra said the average time of games will decrease. And I think most long-lasting games are of the marine-having-advantage-and-game-drags-on-and-on-while-aliens-die-and-die-for-nothing type. With less of these, the <i>average</i> game length will decrease, but the long, really fun games should still exist.
Cummon, peeps. Have trust in Flayra. He's trying to make the game work out well.
Those games I do not enjoy.
The long games that are fun are those where each team has 1 hive, and an intense battle for the second one happens. If the marines win, its mostly over. If the aliens win, it is still fun because that can still be evenly matched. I played a game where I sat down, we reached fades, and then the second hive changed hands about a dozen times, and there were intense battles the entire time. I stood up, and 4 hours had passed by. It was incredible.
I think these games will still be possible (or at least I hope so), while the other games will not.
An average game where one team is the clear victor will not drag on as long since they reach their highest tech levels faster. No longer are the days of half the games just dragging on and on when everybody knows who's going to win.
Once both teams are teched up, if they're evenly matched, the game will go on very similarly to how it does right now. You can fight back and forth for hives, gain and lose ground, etc. <b>With evenly balanced teams, games CAN still go on for 30+ minutes!</b> If you're lucky you can still get those long, heated games that you all seem to crave for. Gone(hopefully) will be the days of the long, drawn out games where the winning team feels no pressure and just takes their time.
sitting in your 1 hive waiting for the marines to tech up so they can kill you = bad.
I hope this is more what Flay is trying to say...it would suck if games were all 11 minutes long...the best games are the ones you play and then 15 minutes later realize hioly **** 5 hours have gone by.
I don't recall any good SC player ever claiming to fondly recall a 1+ hour long stalemate. Usually they recall strange games where they pulled an unusual strategy/tactic that worked well. Or a particularly intense game that was very well played on both sides. These kinds of games are usually short, though not necessarily so, however they're very, very rarely long games. There's a point in almost every strategy game where beyond it is just more of the same for many minutes or god forbids, hours. (Fades VS HA anyone? It HAS to STOP at some point, the sooner the better)
I THINK Flayra is like-minded on this, hence why he wants to shorten average game time to allow for faster and more disversified/interesting gameplay thanks to several promising 1.1 changes. As of 1.04, it's painfully limited and repetitive. I don't see why NS players like stalemates as much as they do. I mean, there are so many fades/lerks vs HA/HMG/GL battles in a row that I can endure before I get sick of playing and wish a new game would start. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When a game is evenly matched, it forces you to *become* more creative, or else your opponent will do so and destroy you. It is in evenly matched games that new strategies to be used - when you are in a stalemate, you will be forced do something that is either exceedingly brilliant and so unexpected that it overwhelms the other side, or fails miserably and ends up in defeat. Why? If you stick to the same strategy that you used to get to the stalemate, the game will stay that way indefinitely (without respect to luck or random chance).
If the game is not evenly matched, then the winning team will not be forced to use strategy - they will only press their advantage until you are dead. This is not what we want. Unfortunately, there isn't enough depth to the aliens atm to be able to have any sort of unpredictability to their strategy.
To the dev team - I think the forumites are right; being victorious after a long uphill battle over some critical area only to have to head off to another area that is now being pressured is a great feeling, and if you wanted there to be 'constant progression' then you should just ask the players to 'lay down your weapons and surrender whenever you see incoming forces' rather than trying to hold the fort desperately.
If you truly want a constantly dynamic "front" that aliens and marines fight over and try to move in their favor, then I ask you - is implementing an electrified TF in accordance with that kind of philosophy? I'm not saying this is a bad thing per se, but resistance should not be futile. Anyway, if I misunderstood Flay's post, sorry.
We were marines. When I joined we had jetpacks and HMGs and they had 2 hives, so I assume it had been going on a little while already. About 5 minutes later we rushed to PowerSilo, wiped out their hive and built up there.
Skip to at least half an hour later. Everybody has HAs and HMGs, and I have no idea what the hell half of them are doing. We already spent more time than we needed to teching up(we probably could have finished Via with the same tech level we killed Silo at), but now people are running around taking out whatever they can without an organized push. The aliens have turtled in Via, so the only way to kill the hive is to push through OC/DC walls. Nobody really feels like doing that, and those that might can't get everybody else to agree with them, so instead we wander around and just try to completely dominate the entire map(except, of course, Viaduct). Comms are entering and leaving the chair primarily just to drop equipment, and the one-hive aliens are completely incapable of taking one of their hives back. We have about 4 IPs in Cargo. At this rate, the game isn't going to end until the aliens stop attacking(so we won't have to defend) and the only alien structures on the map are near their hive.
You get the picture. The game must have been going for at least an hour when I got disconnected, so I'm not sure how long it went on.
Flayra isn't trying to make NS into short and intense deathmatches. He's trying to eliminate ridiculous scenarios like that which only make the game tedious and boring.
Flay seems not to like the thing of attacking, failing and attacking againg... erhaps failing another time... but HEY, THAT'S LIFE <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
No really... as somebody mentioned before, a 15.Min-Game can alsmost never be as fullfilling that winning as a longer game where you had to fight hard for victory.
Shortening the average playtime would take a lot of fun away ecspecially for experienced players.
I fear it COULD end just as WC3... don't get me wrong, WC3 is a nice game and the races are quite balanced... but in Multiplayer it is really crappy to me... players build their rush-army, engage the enemy and the winner of that first battle is the winner of the game.
I've seen lot's of players on a tournament on a LAN-party giving up their matches after the first fight.. cause they knew it was useless to go on.
It's this kind of "unforgiveness" that i fear might find it's may into NS.
Right now spending resources for weapons instead of upgrades just to see your marines getting mowed down by a single skulk is in fact a bad thing... a total waste of resources... but this mistake may not be the final event that leads to your loss of the game.
With a shorter playtime this game could get like a advanced version of "Stone - Scissors - Paper":
-you choose your tactic
-enemy chooses tactic
-the teams engage each other
-the team loosing that first encounter will lose the game if other team is not too incompetent...
All my hope are on the Playtesters... I really belive in their good work and that they represent the intentions of the community...
But the FEAR is still there that he DEPTH of NS might decrease because of the Dev-Team wants more ACTION (imho a good round of ns lifes by the repeating changing of tempo, not pure action)
-just my 2 cent-
-contructive comments are welcome, flames are not-
Hypergrip / Tofu-Ninja
Flay I trust you to create in NS 1.1 an even more kick a$$ game than we currently have (which is extremely kick a$$).
However the first thought that came into my head was this:
Skulks rushing a location need to meet up prior to the rush, waiting outside the target area until everyone is ready. This can take quite a while. I usually try to get the skulks there 1 minute after announcing that we're going to attack this area (yes even if a lone marine has been seen entering there), because 2 skulks may die easily to one marine in some circumstances, but an entire team rushing will be able to take down all the marines and the phase gate/ turret factory in one (maybe 2) rushes easily.
In the time it takes to build up to, and effect an attack, what Flay is saying (my interpretation) is that the tech tree would have been more thoroughly advanced than currently.
This troubles me.
HOWEVER, with 1.1 and the availability of different life forms at 1 hive, the battle for res nodes will be AS IMPORTANT as the battle for hives. At present, it's all very well for the aliens to control all but 2 res nodes on the map, but if they only have 1 hive, the marines will turtle up and get HMGs/JPs/HA/GL etc before the aliens can do anything. At that point the slow march to death that we all hate so much begins and so does the F4ing (haha but not on my server any more woohoo).
In 1.1 I'm anticipating an alien team with 1 hive but most of the resnodes to be a much more powerful entity than a team with 2 hives and only 1 or 2 res nodes.
This need for greater resnode control will affect both aliens and marines - after all, at present it's the case that "if marines get the double res", the aliens will probably lose because the marines can tech up very quickly. In the new version, I expect it to be a case of "if the aliens get the double res nodes we'll have onos and fades on our hands before we can scream BINGO!" as well as the above statement, meaning a common objective for each race for their advancement.
-[2p]Roobubba-
About 2-3 hours is good for me
What i really hate tho is ppl who just camp outside a hieve and <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> the hell outta it
I guarantee you've never played a 4 hour round. This thread is an exaggeration magnet. Hell, I doubt most of you even have played a 1.5 hour round, which in of itself is tremendously long.
If you can't even get the facts straight about how long a round that you recent played was, there's no use in posting. Yet people seem to somehow believe they're being objective about experiencing and subsequently wanting more 2 hour games.
The only possible way I can think of surpassing the 2 hour mark would be a 1 gorge vs comm + lone marine game.
I, for one, am looking foward to more invigorating gameplay instead of sitting around for 15-20 minutes thinking, "why doesn't the other team just kill us already?" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Usually...but I've played about a dozen plus games where the entire game was on the edge. Depending on your strategy you might not be able to run into a hive all gung ho like. You may have to work to it slowly since the aliens usually pester your outposts and take a lot from your human resources. Honestly when I'm comm sometimes it takes me forever to kill the aliens, even with the third hive because there's such a concentration of enemies. I just try to save up, get a bunch of HA or JPers and work into the hive, maybe building siege on the way.
On the other hand I've played numerous games where the other skulks and I rushed an enemy base, totally destroyed it and the game was over in around 3 minutes or less. I HATE those games, even if we did perform well. I prefer evenly matched games that are FUN and not just brutal slaughter <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->.
In closing I've had many games being over a hour long and I enjoyed them. They weren't games where we sit around and let the enemy live as we bask in the glory of 'pwning' <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->. Even if that's most of the games you experience, you may want to try different servers with more sporting people <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->.
On another note... eleven minutes? I hope Flayra takes into account the time it takes to build a Hive... usually you're saving *up* for around eleven minutes just to get the RP to toss the second one up. Never mind the three-to-five-minute build time, plus any gestations for the individual aliens.
Aliens' greatest foe is the time involved, currently. Hopefully if the Marines will be able to tech up to max in nine minutes (!) by Flay's timetable, the Aliens will see a similar boost in effectiveness. Otherwise, we'll be reduced to watching HA/HMG stormtroopers stomping over the single-Hive Aliens game after game.
I'll put my trust in for the time being... but I must admit. The expected lightning-rounds worry me more than just a little.
If the game is not evenly matched, then the winning team will not be forced to use strategy - they will only press their advantage until you are dead. This is not what we want. Unfortunately, there isn't enough depth to the aliens atm to be able to have any sort of unpredictability to their strategy.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nothing I already don't know. Thing is, NS as of now does NOT allow for any creativity whatsoever in the strategy department and tactics are fairly limited, and you said so yourself (for the aliens at least.) This is why I don't understand why so many people claim to absolutely adore 2+ hours long game. Those are just stalemates with the same damn things happening over and over again until a team manages to win some way or another, usually by attrition or aggravation.
I'd rather have a series of interesting 11 minute long games, each one different from the next, than a long **** 2+ hours one whose development I could predict before actually playing it out. Besides, I don't have that much time to sink in a single game of NS, and it's not like it's gonna be entertaining either. I've had 2, count them, TWO long (~1+ hourish) games TOTAL that I would deem as "fun". The rest were mind-numbing yawnfests of the OMG make it stop already. The vast majority of my fun games were, win or loss, relatively short ones. (~15-35ish minutes)