*Notes the lack of anybody other than members here* /me scurries away
<span style='color:red'><i>I'd avoid this post if you value your life.</i></span> Perhaps you guys didn't notice the several locks on this topic? Bash your opposites somewhere else. Vote and that is all you can do here.
It could have been worse Hero. Hell, it <i>was</i> worse til I changed it before posting. And I suppose that was fueled by the ignorant assumptions posted here that a spike-lerk=bad-lerk.
I'll summarise without the heat then:
This is changed to make the lerk a support class. Having bite makes the lerk too well-rounded for a game like NS. That is why it is changing. Also, this does not make the lerk any weaker as spiking works just as well as biting in killing marines. The only real change is to the style in which the lerk is played. That is what people are annoyed at and they should realise it. The lerk might not be what <i>you</i> want it to be, but this isn't <i>your</i> game. Deal.
Also, this has been played out in many, MANY games. Any change like this brings on the bitching. I've seen it again and again and again. Perhap that is why I was more <i>confrontational</i> than is typical for me. I'm not just seeing the dozen or so posts on bite, I'm seeing the <i>thousands</i> of posts crying "nerf!" that have been posted on boards from here to... I don't know, but a place far, far away from here anyway. I'm sick of it, things change because they have to or because the creator wants to. Thats just the way it is. People who ignorantly cry "nerf" remind me of people who complain about taxes. It happens, it's necessary, you don't have to like it, but by God you don't <i>have</i> to **** about it.
Meh, I'll stop before I get too <i>confrontational</i> again.
spikes bite spikes+bite, but umbra at hive 3 (except if it's a typo?)
Well I don't want to see bite leave, but I definietely don't want to see spikes leave anymore than seeing umbra put at last hive. Even though I bite a lot as lerk, I think that as skulk already has bite, lerk shouldnt get bite (well he can, but not INSTEAD of spikes). And having Umbra hive 3 is too much a disadvantage.
Look, if you're here to get frags, you're in the wrong game and wrong evolution. If you're here to support, you're not going to miss bite. Well maybe a bit, but it's not going to cost you your life or anything. If you meet a marine, you'd have the chance to: -fly away -spore him and throw a couple of spikes at him (while running away?) -have your teammate eat him up for you.
If you're alone as a support unit, that's your problem.
In conclusion:
-Don't remove spikes -don't put umbra at hive 3 -keep primal scream somewhere in the game, as I see it Onos doesn'thave place for it anymore.
I have posted this in so many threads but imo the easiest solution would be to change Spores so that they have maximum range. This means that Lerks new easier flying-model would be used for flying close to marines and bombing them <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
The original thread is <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=32068' target='_blank'>here</a>
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
I dunno. I guess I'm being selfish here, as I know I like the bite, and I know it's good. I'd like to see the Lerk still have the option of swooping on marines & attacking them, and if you want Lerk to be a true support class (as it's been said) why give it an anti-structure weapon (if that's what it is)
Spores need to bypass armor so no matter how much armor a marine has, even Heavy armor, it always does 5 damage per second to their health. it doesn't even damage their armor. so HA welding will still be dieing fast without some quick medspams, and think of how slow the HA are, they will be in the cloud for a while especialy if the lerk is shooting ahead of them. the great thing about spore is the area of effect, so while spiking might be deadlier against a single marine, you are doing massive damage spread out in a 5 man squad.
Think about situations like subspace on NS_nancy, marine relocates and creates a stalemate. some spores would allow you to take out the welding guys without dieing all the time.(of course this situation won't happen in 1.1 since you can get onos)
The best thing is it keeps the marines moving around. instead of camping at one spot and picking off skulks running up to them.
<!--QuoteBegin--rashban+May 17 2003, 12:23 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (rashban @ May 17 2003, 12:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> All too true. Basically, good lerks use bite and the lerks extreme mobility to kill normal marines and spikes + bite vs. jetpackers, whereas bad lerks bump into walls and corners too much to be able to use bite, so they use the spikes instead. Bad lerks are just pale copies of JP / LMG marines. I really think spores should be leaving, it's without contest the most mindless, skill-less weapon in the game. How can you possibly be a "good sporer"? The area of effect is enormous, it doesn't do much damage, it won't kill much on its own. Any newbie will be just as deadly with spores as the most grizzled NS-veteran. Umbra and primal scream are good support abilities, spikes is the aliens' only good long-range weapon, so the lerk just needs something for close range to be perfect. Also, all lerk abilities (especially his flight!) are really energy-draining, so he needs something for dealing damage without having to wait for his energy-bar to fill up all the time (ever tried spiking a resource-tower to death?). I think you really should have "Bite + Spikes + Umbra + Primal scream" as an option in your poll...
My opinions (and yes, I've played the game a lot): Lerks need bite (against normal marines and marine structures) Lerks need spikes (to kill JPers, to kill important structures at long ranges (killing TFs from dark corners <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> ) Lerks need umbra (actually, ALIENS need umbra vs. good marines. This skill, like parasite, web and healing spray, is vital to the alien team) Lerks need neither Spores nor Primal scream, but the alien team needs primal scream more than they need spores, so spores should be leaving.
Besides, playing lerk without bite seems very boring. Nothing in this game is as fun / rewarding / thrilling as killing a JP/HMGer in mid-air with a well-timed bite. Very few things are as fun as charging a marine through a long corridor and bite his head off. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I TOTALLY agree. I voted for option 3, because I liked the idea of having primal scream but also didn't want to loose bite.
If there was an option 4 (Bite + Spikes + Umbra + Primal Scream) i think a LOT of people would have voted for that.
Spores are a cheap and rather useless weapon... and from what i read in some playtesters' postings they are even weaker now. So why use them anyway? In 1.04 you can use spores so that you can see the Marines with scent of fear, but since that has changed anyway. Besides having the whole map covered in green clouds seems rather od to me.
<!--QuoteBegin--Hypergrip+May 17 2003, 01:47 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hypergrip @ May 17 2003, 01:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> if there was an option 4 (Bite + Spikes + Umbra + Primal Scream) i think a LOT of people would have voted for that.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> i know i would have...
look, let's checked the ranged weapons we got (so far)
no hive: spikes, spit (hah) 1 hive: none really. We can consider healspray, parasite and spores? 2 hive: none so far. Bile bomb vs building 3 hive: acid rocket.
So considering you won't really have time for a 3rd hive, that gives you:
spikes (versatile) weaker spores (AP) and Bilebomb (AB)
Remove the spikes and remove the ranged weapons! If you want to put back the bite, remove the spores. Though I loved the spores :/ Give the spores to the gorge <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> the gorge can shoot it behind him to discourage marines to chase him <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
/me notices that page one should of ended the discussion.
um...i thought that my point being that 1.0 wouldn't play the same as 1.1, followed by Keyser59's post that lerk is a support player in 1.1, not a winged frag machine, would be sufficient, but i guess not... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
I personally dont see the point in complaining. All you do is upset Flayra, and those who wish to see the mod evolve and move forward.
I think people are missing the nuances of the choices here. Flay has been a very very clever boy.
Personally I think the poll is pretty clear. If your favorite option isn't winning don't start blaming the poll lol that's just silly. Just accept it, and move on.
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited May 2003
norn, isn't that the point of the vote? To discern the views of the <b>players</b>, who keep the mod alive in the first place. There's no shortage of mods with none.
Complainers? Kill 'em. But I personally like the way the Lerk can swoop onto marines atm, and I don't feel watching Lerks spam spikes from miles away makes for a support class.
Oh, and spores are just talentless to use. Games (yes, even those that are encouraged to support tactical use, not just 'skills') should reward the players who play well, and not the ones who don't. A skill that allows Joe spammer to play as well as someone who practises and is generally good at the game is a bad thing.
I'm not going to lock this topic (close your jaws, please), but note that I have quite a number of members from both sides on my list of 'very hot people' right now. If you feel it's necessary to belittle the other opinion to show that you're right, chances are, you aren't, and I won't tolerate such behaviour much longer.
<!--QuoteBegin--Necro-+May 17 2003, 01:26 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necro- @ May 17 2003, 01:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <span style='color:white'>Read the post above yours. Carefully.</span> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> yeah that's true. I think this poll is quite pointless right now. It might be usefull after the release of 1.1, when everyone can make up his own mind by actually trying to play the new lerk...
<!--QuoteBegin--supernorn2000+May 17 2003, 11:27 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (supernorn2000 @ May 17 2003, 11:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> i apologise, but i'm starting to get annoyed with people complaining everytime something is changed. i.e. Devour, the electric TF
just sit back and enjoy the changes guys. Surely you dont want to play the same NS over and over with just "added features" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> true true
About the talentless lerk. Isn't it Flay's intention to move away from individual skill and focus completely on team play and tactics. Something I read, can't remember where. In that case making individual skill less important in this way (debateble) is just bringing us that much closer to the NS of Flay's vision, which surely is a good thing.
oooh am I on the hotlist?? <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Shockwave>> Your points on skill are valid to a point, but you might like to look at the fact that there is no recoil in NS, nor are there one-shot kill weapons, nor aim that gets worse with movement or constant firing. To me this points to a mod that is friendly to the lesser skilled player in the hopes that FPS skill does not overshadow the strategy elements. For that reason I think your argument is invalid when applied to NS.
Nemesis>> I'll do my best to get off that list. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited May 2003
Ah, but then you come into the problems of the premise of a game Incit.
The purpose is to have fun, and compete. If the game reaches that completely, you've removed the point where individual skill no longer affects the game, and in that case, why not just replace the players altogether & have done with it?
(In other words, you just made an RTS in totality.) <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
EDIT : Calantus, I s'pose. I can see both sides to this. The premise is to strike a balance between skill level dominating (1.04, CS etc) and team play / tactics dominating (decent RTS such as Medieval/Shogun) If you want it all the way to teamplay, all the players become faceless, with their individual talents being removed by whatever means, so you can't have some player that is especially good at one thing, one who is effective at another, one who plain old just isn't any good etc.
EDIT AGAIN (forgot my counterpoint) : Likewise, I personally don't want it to reach the 'skill defeats teamwork' level it can be done at now. I know I can kill 3 skulks for example before they reach me depending on situation, but I'd like to see me take one, maybe two if lucky then I <b>should</b> die. Because they co-operated, and therefore should defeat me for ramboing. GJ Skulks.
Keep in mind that there are different definitions of 'skill'. Sporing can also be skillful, for example, because one has to be able to decide upon the location where the cloud helps the team the most - for example by dividing an assaulting force, which is often more effective than just filling an entrance with green gas.
<!--QuoteBegin--rashban+May 16 2003, 06:23 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (rashban @ May 16 2003, 06:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> All too true. Basically, good lerks use bite and the lerks extreme mobility to kill normal marines and spikes + bite vs. jetpackers, whereas bad lerks bump into walls and corners too much to be able to use bite, so they use the spikes instead. Bad lerks are just pale copies of JP / LMG marines. I really think spores should be leaving, it's without contest the most mindless, skill-less weapon in the game. How can you possibly be a "good sporer"? The area of effect is enormous, it doesn't do much damage, it won't kill much on its own. Any newbie will be just as deadly with spores as the most grizzled NS-veteran. Umbra and primal scream are good support abilities, spikes is the aliens' only good long-range weapon, so the lerk just needs something for close range to be perfect. Also, all lerk abilities (especially his flight!) are really energy-draining, so he needs something for dealing damage without having to wait for his energy-bar to fill up all the time (ever tried spiking a resource-tower to death?). I think you really should have "Bite + Spikes + Umbra + Primal scream" as an option in your poll...
My opinions (and yes, I've played the game a lot): Lerks need bite (against normal marines and marine structures) Lerks need spikes (to kill JPers, to kill important structures at long ranges (killing TFs from dark corners <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> ) Lerks need umbra (actually, ALIENS need umbra vs. good marines. This skill, like parasite, web and healing spray, is vital to the alien team) Lerks need neither Spores nor Primal scream, but the alien team needs primal scream more than they need spores, so spores should be leaving.
Besides, playing lerk without bite seems very boring. Nothing in this game is as fun / rewarding / thrilling as killing a JP/HMGer in mid-air with a well-timed bite. Very few things are as fun as charging a marine through a long corridor and bite his head off. Standing still and using all your energy to just provide umbra and primal scream for your team sounds awfully dull... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You said it. Out with spores, back with Bite!
I never said skill should be abandoned completely nor is this even possible. As long as a human is pushing the mouse button he has the ability to err. So a skilled team will ALWAYS have the advantage over a non skilled team, besides 'skill' also means skill in reading the situation, choosing tactics and knowing how to support the team in the best possible way. In my opinion these skills are far more important than skills in using any of the weapons. But weapon skills should be severely limited so that the individual doesn't have fun on his own with his leet weapon skillz but the individual has fun as a part of his team using coordinated tactics. Also removing the bite defines the support role MUCH better. Even the rules of evolution dictate that the lerk would develop purely supportive weapons since this is it's primary role. See our own military. The MLRS rocket battery doesn't have any close quarter combat capabilities because it is not meant for such battles.
On another note. I'm suprised that there aren't more votes. Some of these guys here have member numbers up into the 16000. Yet less than 500 have voted <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
If you assume that about one tenth of our registered members use this forum regularly, we have a little less than one third of them voting. Not all that few people, if you ask me.
Still not enough to call the vote representative or even statistically relevant though. Internet discussion forums attract only certain kinds of players, for example. A poll here will never be more than an opinion sample of a vocal minority.
well then the problem is with them not voting, not the vote having a problem? They want to keep bite and remove spikes? THEN SHOW IT.
remember, teamwork... support class... only ranged weapon... <span style='color:white'>Try not to insult people of the other opinion.</span> Supporting his teammates needs skill as well.
Comments
/me scurries away
<span style='color:red'><i>I'd avoid this post if you value your life.</i></span>
Perhaps you guys didn't notice the several locks on this topic? Bash your opposites somewhere else. Vote and that is all you can do here.
lerks ment to be fully support class. But bite might come back in later versions of ns but it wont be in 1.1
I'll summarise without the heat then:
This is changed to make the lerk a support class. Having bite makes the lerk too well-rounded for a game like NS. That is why it is changing. Also, this does not make the lerk any weaker as spiking works just as well as biting in killing marines. The only real change is to the style in which the lerk is played. That is what people are annoyed at and they should realise it. The lerk might not be what <i>you</i> want it to be, but this isn't <i>your</i> game. Deal.
Also, this has been played out in many, MANY games. Any change like this brings on the bitching. I've seen it again and again and again. Perhap that is why I was more <i>confrontational</i> than is typical for me. I'm not just seeing the dozen or so posts on bite, I'm seeing the <i>thousands</i> of posts crying "nerf!" that have been posted on boards from here to... I don't know, but a place far, far away from here anyway. I'm sick of it, things change because they have to or because the creator wants to. Thats just the way it is. People who ignorantly cry "nerf" remind me of people who complain about taxes. It happens, it's necessary, you don't have to like it, but by God you don't <i>have</i> to **** about it.
Meh, I'll stop before I get too <i>confrontational</i> again.
spikes
bite
spikes+bite, but umbra at hive 3 (except if it's a typo?)
Well I don't want to see bite leave, but I definietely don't want to see spikes leave anymore than seeing umbra put at last hive. Even though I bite a lot as lerk, I think that as skulk already has bite, lerk shouldnt get bite (well he can, but not INSTEAD of spikes). And having Umbra hive 3 is too much a disadvantage.
Look, if you're here to get frags, you're in the wrong game and wrong evolution. If you're here to support, you're not going to miss bite. Well maybe a bit, but it's not going to cost you your life or anything. If you meet a marine, you'd have the chance to:
-fly away
-spore him and throw a couple of spikes at him (while running away?)
-have your teammate eat him up for you.
If you're alone as a support unit, that's your problem.
In conclusion:
-Don't remove spikes
-don't put umbra at hive 3
-keep primal scream somewhere in the game, as I see it Onos doesn'thave place for it anymore.
The spikes fullfil a function the Lerk ALREADY HAS in 1.1(The Spores + The Spikes = Same thing in effect) So why have it twice?
[EDIT]<b>I don't care what you say, plenty of people have voted Spikes just because that was what was originally 'decided' imo.</b>[/EDIT]
The original thread is <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=32068' target='_blank'>here</a>
The only reason I can see for having both spikes and spores is that spikes = anti-building and spores = anti-personnel.
Note that spores are in every option in Flayra's poll, so I guess he likes them as part of the flavour of the lerk.
[FACT]1000 posts. Whee[/FACT]
Think about situations like subspace on NS_nancy, marine relocates and creates a stalemate. some spores would allow you to take out the welding guys without dieing all the time.(of course this situation won't happen in 1.1 since you can get onos)
The best thing is it keeps the marines moving around. instead of camping at one spot and picking off skulks running up to them.
My opinions (and yes, I've played the game a lot):
Lerks need bite (against normal marines and marine structures)
Lerks need spikes (to kill JPers, to kill important structures at long ranges (killing TFs from dark corners <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> )
Lerks need umbra (actually, ALIENS need umbra vs. good marines. This skill, like parasite, web and healing spray, is vital to the alien team)
Lerks need neither Spores nor Primal scream, but the alien team needs primal scream more than they need spores, so spores should be leaving.
Besides, playing lerk without bite seems very boring. Nothing in this game is as fun / rewarding / thrilling as killing a JP/HMGer in mid-air with a well-timed bite. Very few things are as fun as charging a marine through a long corridor and bite his head off. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I TOTALLY agree.
I voted for option 3, because I liked the idea of having primal scream but also didn't want to loose bite.
If there was an option 4 (Bite + Spikes + Umbra + Primal Scream) i think a LOT of people would have voted for that.
Spores are a cheap and rather useless weapon... and from what i read in some playtesters' postings they are even weaker now.
So why use them anyway? In 1.04 you can use spores so that you can see the Marines with scent of fear, but since that has changed anyway.
Besides having the whole map covered in green clouds seems rather od to me.
i know i would have...
no hive: spikes, spit (hah)
1 hive: none really. We can consider healspray, parasite and spores?
2 hive: none so far. Bile bomb vs building
3 hive: acid rocket.
So considering you won't really have time for a 3rd hive, that gives you:
spikes (versatile) weaker spores (AP) and Bilebomb (AB)
Remove the spikes and remove the ranged weapons! If you want to put back the bite, remove the spores. Though I loved the spores :/
Give the spores to the gorge <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> the gorge can shoot it behind him to discourage marines to chase him <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
um...i thought that my point being that 1.0 wouldn't play the same as 1.1,
followed by Keyser59's post that lerk is a support player in 1.1, not a winged frag machine, would be sufficient, but i guess not... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
I personally dont see the point in complaining. All you do is upset Flayra, and those who wish to see the mod evolve and move forward.
Flay has been a very very clever boy.
Personally I think the poll is pretty clear. If your favorite option isn't winning don't start blaming the poll lol that's just silly.
Just accept it, and move on.
Complainers? Kill 'em. But I personally like the way the Lerk can swoop onto marines atm, and I don't feel watching Lerks spam spikes from miles away makes for a support class.
Oh, and spores are just talentless to use. Games (yes, even those that are encouraged to support tactical use, not just 'skills') should reward the players who play well, and not the ones who don't. A skill that allows Joe spammer to play as well as someone who practises and is generally good at the game is a bad thing.
If you feel it's necessary to belittle the other opinion to show that you're right, chances are, you aren't, and I won't tolerate such behaviour much longer.
i.e. Devour, the electric TF
just sit back and enjoy the changes guys. Surely you dont want to play the same NS over and over with just "added features"
yeah that's true. I think this poll is quite pointless right now. It might be usefull after the release of 1.1, when everyone can make up his own mind by actually trying to play the new lerk...
i.e. Devour, the electric TF
just sit back and enjoy the changes guys. Surely you dont want to play the same NS over and over with just "added features" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
true true
About the talentless lerk. Isn't it Flay's intention to move away from individual skill and focus completely on team play and tactics.
Something I read, can't remember where. In that case making individual skill less important in this way (debateble) is just bringing
us that much closer to the NS of Flay's vision, which surely is a good thing.
oooh am I on the hotlist?? <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Nemesis>> I'll do my best to get off that list. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
The purpose is to have fun, and compete. If the game reaches that completely, you've removed the point where individual skill no longer affects the game, and in that case, why not just replace the players altogether & have done with it?
(In other words, you just made an RTS in totality.) <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
EDIT : Calantus, I s'pose. I can see both sides to this. The premise is to strike a balance between skill level dominating (1.04, CS etc) and team play / tactics dominating (decent RTS such as Medieval/Shogun) If you want it all the way to teamplay, all the players become faceless, with their individual talents being removed by whatever means, so you can't have some player that is especially good at one thing, one who is effective at another, one who plain old just isn't any good etc.
EDIT AGAIN (forgot my counterpoint) : Likewise, I personally don't want it to reach the 'skill defeats teamwork' level it can be done at now. I know I can kill 3 skulks for example before they reach me depending on situation, but I'd like to see me take one, maybe two if lucky then I <b>should</b> die. Because they co-operated, and therefore should defeat me for ramboing. GJ Skulks.
My opinions (and yes, I've played the game a lot):
Lerks need bite (against normal marines and marine structures)
Lerks need spikes (to kill JPers, to kill important structures at long ranges (killing TFs from dark corners <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> )
Lerks need umbra (actually, ALIENS need umbra vs. good marines. This skill, like parasite, web and healing spray, is vital to the alien team)
Lerks need neither Spores nor Primal scream, but the alien team needs primal scream more than they need spores, so spores should be leaving.
Besides, playing lerk without bite seems very boring. Nothing in this game is as fun / rewarding / thrilling as killing a JP/HMGer in mid-air with a well-timed bite. Very few things are as fun as charging a marine through a long corridor and bite his head off. Standing still and using all your energy to just provide umbra and primal scream for your team sounds awfully dull... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You said it. Out with spores, back with Bite!
But weapon skills should be severely limited so that the individual doesn't have fun on his own with his leet weapon skillz but the individual has fun as a part of his team using coordinated tactics.
Also removing the bite defines the support role MUCH better. Even the rules of evolution dictate that the lerk would develop purely supportive weapons since this is it's primary role.
See our own military. The MLRS rocket battery doesn't have any close quarter combat capabilities because it is not meant for such battles.
remember, teamwork... support class... only ranged weapon...
<span style='color:white'>Try not to insult people of the other opinion.</span> Supporting his teammates needs skill as well.