and also dont forget what really newb lerks did all day. turn lerk so they can spike and die. Reapeat several times before first hive is up and blow tons of res. Res won't be a problem in 1.1 but with the addition of spores and ubra sooner, i have a fealing tons of newbs will just turn into lerk to spike and spore and die repeatedly trying to get cheap spore kills. Spores can encourage teamwork but they also encourage tons of lamer newbs who don't know what they doing and have them try and spore kill all day and repeatedly die.
This isn't really in support of bite. Just I'm also highly against spores. Spores were always lame and always will be.
I think removing something so <b>fundamental</b> as a bite from the lerk is not good for the following reasons:
i) It's counter-intuitive (vicious bird thing has no bite/peck ? ) ii) It takes away from the atmosphere of the game...who can forget the decapatation scene in "Starship troopers" by the flying creatures ? I for one would fear the lerk alot more with the bite ! iii) Biting is fun !!
Although I never claimed that many kills with the bite, one kill does stand out in my mind. I was harassing a group of marines with spikes from a high-up vent. Eventually one gets a jetpack and comes on up... bite with some umbra sauce made quite a tasty lunch. Fun !!
If the bite is regarded as too powerful...why not reduce the damage somewhat then ? I think complete removal of a weapon is a very drastic move, which is bound to upset many players...why not compromise here ?
In my opinion most played the lerk as a support class anyway. I umbra'd countless fades that were on marine base attack missions.
it's not its power level that's bothering - thus the poll. It's more like the flavor/expected role of the lerk. As is, the lerk CAN be a one man army, but so can a fade or onos (in the right hands?). But a fade and onos are SUPPOSED to be able to handle a bunch of marines. Well maybe not taking a whole base, but at least it seems more logical to see a fade swiping a base rather than a bird decimating whole squads. The lerk isn't supposed to handle such a firefight alone. So the vote goes to: what we currently have (something quite versatile, both support and power) 1.1 current (pure support) the hybrid: something that kind of removes the only hive-1 ranged attack, and a good harassing weapon that can be also a lethal weapon. (not so support anymore but also support in a sense)
Have you biters ever <i>used</i> spike? 'Cause from your comments I just get the impression that you've so focused on bite being the "real" lerk weapon that you've ignored spike. Now, if all you're seeing are newbie spike-lerks, then I can undestand and I think that may be the problem in you seeing this change as a big nerf for lerks. Have you ever seen a spike lerk take down 3 marines in a hallway? Have you ever seen a spike-lerk strafe past an opening, taking down a marine on the way? Ever seen a lerk umbra, open a door to the marine base on eclipse and kill 2 distant marines before backing off? Have you seen a lerk take out all the marines in an outpost while erratically dodging return fire? Then to take down each marine as they come thorugh the portal so the skulks can come in time? Ever seen a lerk track multiple fast-moving JPers to take 'em down with spike? Do you think it takes no skill to fly around like crazy and keep your crosshair on the enemy and switch targets when they're dead?
Let me put it this way, if a marine does not see a good spike lerk first, that marine is dead. Now... in 1.1 silence stops shooting sounds as well as moving sounds... and you can't see the lerk's spikes? Can you guys even invision what a good spike lerk could do with that? Guys, I think it's time to <i>really</i> try to get to know spikes. Sure bite is skillful, and it may be a rush, but it is not the fundamental attack of the lerk. The lerk has 2 main attacks and you'd be hard pressed to convince me that one is fundamentally better than the other in the hands of the most skilled of players. It may be fundamental to how <i>you</i> play, but it really isn't all that much better than spike in killing marines.
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
(in reply to everyone who wants spore cloud removed)
I suspect that the reason Flayra did not include a option that doesn't include spore cloud is that he recognizes the spore cloud's tactical value. As Nemesis Zero said, it can be used to divide attacking forces. It can also be used to prevent a siege base from being set up. I'm sure that I could think up many other uses for it, given enough time. Spore cloud is a very unique weapon, unlike bite.
Also, <!--QuoteBegin--Stakhanov+May 17 2003, 02:36 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Stakhanov @ May 17 2003, 02:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Waiting for the cavalry... hmmm whan an effective tactic to protect that exposed 2nd hive from the uber JP HMGs !
No OC stacking , no webs - how could the alien team prevent them from entering the hive room ?
Insufficient OC accuracy , nerfed spikes - what would occupy the JP HMG demoman's attention ?
No paralyze , no acid rockets - wth is the "cavalry" supposed to do ? The JP HMG may be the "official" counter to the Onos , but what's the counter to that ?
So the aliens are supposed to immediately catch the JPers when they land , or keep shooting pathetic spores/spikes until the comm runs out of ressource medspamming. Great , it's good to see how much strategies evolved since 1.04 !...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I was under the impression that OC accuracy was drastically improved.
"Have you biters ever used spike?" Yep, use them all the time (I never said I wanted spikes removed). However, in my experience at least, the lerk doesn't have enough energy to keep flapping + using spikes before Adrenaline, so you need to learn how to use bite as well (although this might be FPS related, I get pretty poor fps when there's a lot of action on-screen). Once marines start getting upgrades (armor #1 especially!), it's suicide to attack more than 1, max 2, at the same time with bite only before you get Umbra (this is assuming the marines can aim). So (at least I do this), you soften them up with spikes first, preferrably from a dark vent or something, and then, if you're confident, go for the kill with bite. I do use spikes, but I like bite more, and I absolutely hate spore cloud. Yes it is unique, yes it is support, yes it can be useful, but it's completely mindless and requires 0 skill. You can't become a "good sporeclouder". An ability that said "stand still on a hive to give a global 25% damage boost to all aliens" would be very useful support too, it would be unique, and it would be useful, but it would be incredibly boring.
By the way, is umbra still just as horribly overpowered in 1.1 as it is in 1.04? You'd guess that 500% more effective HP is a bit too powerful, no?
<!--QuoteBegin--Cereal_KillR+May 17 2003, 05:40 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cereal_KillR @ May 17 2003, 05:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> it's not its power level that's bothering - thus the poll. It's more like the flavor/expected role of the lerk. As is, the lerk CAN be a one man army, but so can a fade or onos (in the right hands?). But a fade and onos are SUPPOSED to be able to handle a bunch of marines. Well maybe not taking a whole base, but at least it seems more logical to see a fade swiping a base rather than a bird decimating whole squads. The lerk isn't supposed to handle such a firefight alone. So the vote goes to: what we currently have (something quite versatile, both support and power) 1.1 current (pure support) the hybrid: something that kind of removes the only hive-1 ranged attack, and a good harassing weapon that can be also a lethal weapon. (not so support anymore but also support in a sense) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Thanks for the thoughtful reply.
I think probably the sticking point for me is that I pretty much see the lerk as a support class now/ as is. At least thats the way I've seen it played for the most part. I guess there must be some uber/kamikaze lerks that can pull off insane tactics and so forth...but I've yet to see one in action myself. Can't count the number of times I've been in a vent (as a lerk) only to be killed by pistol fire before I can say 'oh geez I'm dead'.
Also, the most dangerous creatures are often the smaller/quicker critters... so a bird decimating a whole squad does not seem that unreasonable to me.
Another disturbing aspect about this thread is certain people who have drawn a line between "lerk spikers" and "lerk biters". To me this is quite silly guys, spiking and biting are two sides of the same coin. It is like martial artists that claim that "striking is better than grappling" or vice versa. You need both to be successful in my opinion...with "one being better than other" dictated solely by the needs of the particular situation. I.e. at range I'll spike and close I'll bite... simple as that.
First off, I am not "whining", I am simply stating my consern for this game and the part about this game I enjoy the most, flying. As for the person who tolk me out of context a while back (I don't mean to counterflame, sorry if I am), I meant "perfect" as I belive every Kharaa should be "perfect" - they shouldn't be so lop-sided that they can only be used one way (although most PT'ers i've talked to in IRC who played as lerk said they sniped mostly "don't worry you'll love the new lerk, they are the perfect sniper class you just sit back and spike and spore and the marines have no idea where you are")
... Which is a great ave. of playing.... but all classes should have several ways of playing it that acheive its overall purpouse. The 1.04 skulk for example is nice offensive unit, which is achived through multiple ways, not just one: they are nice for surprise attacks, 5 person charges (the third and up players will make it throught the gunfire), and with 2 hives they can also do 2 skulk rushes on farily skilled marines and win while being slightly outnumbered by closeing the range instantly and running circles around their oppent and whith 3 hives they can do all of the previous AND become living bombs for structure destruction or mass marine desposal... this is ONE unit, and it is NOT overpowered - it is a nicely ballanced unit with a multitude of different ways of doing the same thing - being offensive. This means that they are usefull for more than just one situation (its alright in a pure RTS when a unit only have one purpose, but when the players are the units, evey unit must have more than ONE thing it does so it is able to adapt to the situations it is in.
For example if you gave them slow running speed this would only allow them to fill the role of the supprise attacker - which in 1.04 is not always possilbe if you are fighting smart marines who always look aroud) and are versitle, a nessacy trait in ns for desiding what race to choose when you spawn. People are making comparisons to the 1.04 gorge with the new lerk, but I have fought skilled gorges before when attempting sololy complete a task and either lost or come close to loseing - they might have made every spit count (this can actualy do a lot of dammage if they all hit and the gorge can back up properly) or be skillfull with his ability to hid behind the 1 structure he had to build 2 offensive chambers and spit behind the lines... or trying very hard to get away from my shotgun in one case and web a very reluctant player... he won, but it tolk at least a minute and he was very hurt... and keep in mind this isn't even a support role that is the gorges main role, their main role is BUILDER but that didn't stop them.. perhaps part of the reason I had a hard time was because I had never faced this challange before (prehaps the main reason why marines seem to have a hart time killing biteing lerks, they just don't know what to do... its not a problem that that Private Joe comes across often (I usualy killed the lerks though <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> mainly I usualy said to myself, "Your not that great a lerk, I can kill you with a lmg. Fool for underestamating my tatics. If I was that lerk, this marine I am would be dead" but that's a little off topic) and he is thrown out of place when he <b>does</b> come across it.
This is the reason why on a average server I am able to get away with (if I so chose) flying around like an idiot and spikeing them from inside their base, yet on a skilled server I have to go with the bite + dart to live... I know I'm repeating myself but the real reason most marines can't kill a semi-skilled lerk is they don't know HOW... but back to what I was talking about... other classes (even the non-offensive non-support gorge) when push coes to shove, can defend himself against a supprised marine (I was supprised the gorge was so skilled at dodgeing). Perhaps what I mean to say, is that a good class (all alieans should be a good class in NS) can push the boundries of his capabilites for nesseties sake...
Oh yes, I was talking about every class is its own universe that few players tend to explore. Most (I REALY don't want to brag, but I'm just using myself as an example because I'm crazy/ballsy/fairly-skilled) peole thought I was stupdi when I went into the deathtrap of the turret farm to kill the two marine there and then break the overlooked crack in the com's strategy by eating most of the factory to death before the turrets finaly got to me... but by that time the other skulks who were previously sitting back thinking that their class can't do anything usefull in this situation realised that they didn't need a 3 hive fade to take care of this and finished it off for me (I don't know, but I think this is the closest think a Kharra can do to becoming a leader... encurage his brethren to fight the fight that they don't belive they can do... I love the odds being against me and being outnumbered... I love how everyone see me go out there and make a seeming syco move... which it is, and get fairly far before the massive odds finaly crush me... and everyone else says "charge!!" ... this is why I usualy play as skulk and lerk...)
As for the Fades? well... I found 1.04 Fades too 2d <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> Perhaps its because I usualy went lerk not only because there were too many fades and umbra and arial support was needed, but because the lerk is a good rally point (when I play him at least). I think of it as a "Flag Bearer" with a sharp spear and the end of the flag and a pistol on the side (yah sucky analogy...). On public servers, fades realy need to know that they are much more effective at close range, and they see this little guy fly to them, ubmra them and say, "Okey, now charge" and fly onward the the action and umbra, something clicks in their mind... "I should be the most effective I can."...
... As for the person who said this is realy being selfish, I beg to differ only on a realy good day do I get more kills than most of the fades (meaning 2nd place in team or so, when fades are common i'm usualy only at the 50% mark instead of the previous 3rd {this is on a server with a lot of skilled players though}), but me telling them to charge and providing surpport where it isneeded rather than where they are causes them to be all they can, rather than be acid spammers.. I actualy supported those fades, and supported those skulks who were too afraid to enter before (i'm thinking of eclipse main for some reason).. I might have gotten only 2-3 kills while the fades got 5 each (minimum) and skulks did nicely themselves... I was too buisy drawing attention to realy do much real dammage... and I ask (I don't wish to flame)... How is this selfish... How did this hurt the team?? If the marines had gotten smart a second they would have gotten next to the door in pairs and as the doors opened again rushed the lerks with hmg's and the fades would have died. This would have been the result of me "sitting back" and "supporting" the current situation...
Back to what I was saying before.. 1.04 fades do have a multitude of ways to fill the "warrior" class as well. They have the ability to do heavy dammage to marines (I always liked rocket+rocket then blink then swipe myself...) as well as structures (bile bomb and swipe)... all filling the "warrior" role... although I think in 1.04 they don't realy have the proper set of abilites to most effectivly complete this task... and from what PT'ers say of 1.1 they sound very broken and unplayed... I hope that they are able to fill their role better through more than through just one or two avenues... as for the onos... 1.1 should make them more ballanced I hope for their role of "juggernaut" a role which is fun to play for many people (actulay I think onos doesn't need to be that vercitle to fill the role of juggernaut) <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> ... so we see that yes, the Kharaa do have roles... and if it is a good class, these roles are flexible... if lerks are realy too good with bite (I might have said it before, but I don't have much of a problem killing them, but many players do), then reduse thieir dammage... because with new flight and the cling ability they should be able to fill their flexible other half of thier role better and with primal scream and a projectile umbra this should encurrage and underline the <u>surpport</u> part of their role better.
Arg. That was long... as for those saying that lerk is going to be a support only (god i've been typing so long i'm not sure if I said this before) PT'ers say it isn't. They say they mostly snipe. CURRENTLY they are mostly snipe and fairly good at taking down lone marines in halls... and fairly weak at support... lets think of this game for a second not just as a dream of the creator but as the playland of many CURRENT players. yes there will always be those who will resist all change no matter what it is, and I am glad to say I am not one of those poeple. HOWEVER, if one takes the things in the previous vertion that players loved and reworked them into a more creative way, then I welcome change. If I only loved the sniper and the support aspect of the lerk, i would care little about the removal of lerk. But many players love the "air support" aspect of this class, and I am one of them. I DO want to be support, I DONT want to feel like a ubmra/primal B**ch. Perhaps why the smaller Kharaa need to be versitle is their lack of hp (someone said the marines were vercitle and the Kharaa were specified... I belive I have stated how the Kharaa are specified, but they are vercitle within their role). If I and others who loved the support and the flying attack (no I don't consiter dart a very good flying attack) get ostrasized... well then... then we would be betrayed. Yes, I am not against game developers but that's what you would do to players, betray them (after all, your choseing the skills they had in previous vertions are what caused them to love that that aspect of that class with).
Quite frankly, I find it very depressing that the title of the poll is "1.1 lerk, bite or dart". To say we shall betray the 55 present of lerk-lovers who would rather be sniper and support or betray the 45 present of players who fell in love with the airbandit/support is cruel. Now I realise this was not the intention of the poll. The intention of the poll was to ask the honest opinion of the furture of lerks. Thats why I am saddend to see that choice. I realy wander if flayra understood what various memers of the community meant when they said "AHHH YOU REMOVED BITE, ARE YOU INSAIN". And I realy don't blame him for it. As for that "hot list" I realy hope I'm not on it, because I try to make my posts thought out (even if they become rambles, they arn't rants), but quite frankly if you realy don't like what I have to say, then you don't like what I have to say.
To finally end this *hears everyone say yay!!! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> *, don't remove bite, but if it is far too powerfull, tone down the dammage it does, or replace it with a fly-by attack (one that does dammage based on how fast we are going or something silly like that would hopefully make it for those of us who love to fly (and it would make the umbra + melee combo not too unbeatable)). You were were the ones that filled this nich (actualy 2 niches) that was lacking in any game I (and others) had ever played before. Thank you for the lerk.
*edited to hurt eyes less... don't complain please... I like to leave opened ended senctences as I belive you should make up your own mind based on facts that I leave up to you*
<!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+May 17 2003, 10:03 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ May 17 2003, 10:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think the new lerk suggestions = teh win.
Support role is needed for the alien team, and the lerk fits it nicly. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> *SIGH* If you arn't going to read my three page post, at least read my previous posts or skim through my long one please. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
(i'm not flameing you, its just I spent a LOT of time explaing why I agree with you)
I've bitten (wounded) marines to death before, swooping in to kill them, once, possibly even twice 'cause I felt like it. But I rarely if ever get into a situation where bite is the <i>best</i> choice. Even if they're close you can often down them with spike soon enough. I've taken out the whole marine team as a lerk before, including the ones that rushed me, and I only used spike. You guys just don't see it, the spike is a fricken mini-gun it shoots so fast. I've downed marines in <i>close combat</i> with spike.
Bite is about 4.2 spikes in damage. Any ideas how long it takes to shoot that many spikes? Almost none. If you can keep your targetter on a marine that's moving, while you're moving, you're sickeningly powerful as a lerk. Sniping or up close it doesn't matter. You can pump those spikes into marines so fast they go down before you get a <i>chance</i> to bite. If, on one of your biting runs, you spiked the whole time you saw that marine (and hit), they would most likely be dead before you got into bite range.
Also, you can spike-lerk without adrenalin, you'd be hard pressed to down more than one marine while dodging fire, but you can take one out easy, more if you can afford not to fly. I'll say again, taking away bite will not really affect the lerk's ability to function as a combat alien. It will change <i>how</i> it functions for <i>some</i>, but it wont be a nerf persay. I know this, because I don't really bite. I don't have to play 1.1 to knpw whether this is true, because I've been playing this way since I first played the lerk. The only change I see that might affect the lerk's ability to be in combat is the change to damage, to flight and to attack speed, but none of you have brought that up so I wont.
Also, that the playtesters are using lerks to snipe means nothing. Playstyle preference plays a very large part in how people play. If you view the lerk as a sniper and like that playstyle, that's how you're going to play the lerk. It doesn't automatically mean that it is the only way to play the lerk or even the best or most effective. It just means that the playtesters you have heard from prefer to play that way. Did any of them say specifically that the lerk is a gimped combat alien?
What I want you guys to understand is that a lerk can be awesome without bite. If you still want to say that you wont like the new playstyle of the lerk, well, I can't stop you. But I really wish you'd drop the arguments that this will gimp the lerk as a combat alien. It wont. Plenty of people own with spikes, and own hard. A lerk barren of bite is not a gimped lerk. Please try to understand that.
Also, Akin, I really hate making comments on people's grammar, particularly on the internet, but that first "paragraph" of yours made my brain hurt. Could you please split that up? Even if you break it at non-logical points, at least it wont be so... big. I must confess I just skimmed it when I read, so I can't be completely sure if I got all your points.
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Either way, this thread is fairly over. The poll has (to my disagreement sadly) stabilized around 20/60/20, and nothing you do or say can change what the general opinion seems to be on that.
I personally don't want to see the Bite gone, but if that's the way people envision the Lerk, and is the way the devs choose to move forward on, there's no point complaining about it.
Make your statement, but don't then fight over which is better, because it only makes your own 'side' look petty.
let's see how it turns out and we will see if its bad or not. We never tried no-biting, maybe it will be horribly bad but maybe it's going to be the new passion of all of us. I trust the PTers and Flayra for having a good opinion and making the best possible lerk. Both in power and flavor.
<!--QuoteBegin--Akin+May 17 2003, 09:43 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Akin @ May 17 2003, 09:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Quite frankly, I find it very depressing that the title of the poll is "1.1 lerk, bite or dart". To say we shall betray the 55 present of lerk-lovers who would rather be sniper and support or betray the 45 present of players who fell in love with the airbandit/support is cruel. Now I realise this was not the intention of the poll. The intention of the poll was to ask the honest opinion of the furture of lerks. Thats why I am saddend to see that choice. I realy wander if flayra understood what various memers of the community meant when they said "AHHH YOU REMOVED BITE, ARE YOU INSAIN". And I realy don't blame him for it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I read that whole thing. That was long. It was great. Heres a nice part.
I think this vote should only be voted on by lerks, both spikers and biters. It doesn't really seem fair for someone to vote for spikes because they don't like being bitten yet they never play as a lerk, only a fade. The poll CONCERNS how lerk players are going to play, so if you are not a lerk player, than you shouldn't vote. It does affect the team in general, but if you are voting for something you don't play as, you are affecting what will happen to the lerk community(which you are not a part of), may it be bad or good.
well i just got done playing 1.1i and the new lerk mobility coupled with the lack of bite = weee
lerks now fly much slower overall (especially down long hallways) thus disabling them from getting away from marines as quick. they get gunned down a lot more.
1.04 lerks are already used in support roles. It has already been mentioned that lerks can't take out basses now without fades or skulks. They are not one man armies. I usually see them seen and I personnaly use them to scout the map very quickly for enemy movement and taking down lone marines on the way. I do this until our team is ready to attack and then I go with and umbra like mad. I have had so many situations that if not for bite our team would have lost just because no one could respond fast enough. For example, we were on ns_bast and the marines were building a siege/phase in the vents near feedwater. No one knew this was going on and I heard them on my scout/patrol with the lerk. I instantly informed the team and asked for help. With BITE I was able to at least fight in the vents and delay the siege building until help arrived. There was no way I could have done that with spores (wouldnt have killed the already built siege and the commander was already dropping meds everywhere on the builders).
When the hive is under attack you umbra the hive and BITE the jper. Trying to do that with spikes would just be harder.
And when playing as marines I would much much rather be attacked by a lerk diving at my face then be walking around and dying from something I can't see or here. It is fun fending off dive bombing lerks and it's challenging to fight lerks supporting with umbra since it changes the battlefield so much. It's hard since you cant just run up and knife them since they have BITE.
Is anyone going to want to stand around and play pure support? I don't want to stand around in the back chirping like a deranged canaray while the 8 fades get to have all the fun. Lerks are fun because they take some semblance of skill to be effective to the team. They have low hp/armor compared to fades and do infact die rather quickly in the hands of a beginner. Any idiot can take a fade or onos and run rampant, but it takes a special lerk to flap in from halfway across the map and toss an umbra at thier feet, bite the lunatics that are trying to knife in the umbra, spike the tf, and then rush down the hall to bite that jerk with the pistol. Remove the potential for players to grow and you may as well replace them with AI and call it Warcraft: Space Orcs.
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Bizarrely enough, I just performed the exact sequence in the game I just quit from Wombat. Uncanny <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Akin+May 18 2003, 04:43 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Akin @ May 18 2003, 04:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The epitome of TL, DR<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wow. Just, wow... Anyways, I still think lerks offer more team play. If you want bite, get a skulk to come with you. And flying is easier in 1.1 since flying cost is decreased.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Is anyone going to want to stand around and play pure support?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Spazmatic+May 18 2003, 08:43 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Spazmatic @ May 18 2003, 08:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Is anyone going to want to stand around and play pure support?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Me.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> me too, im looking forward to playing decoy or "spore dude in the vent".
<!--QuoteBegin--Incitatus+May 17 2003, 06:12 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Incitatus @ May 17 2003, 06:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think people are missing the nuances of the choices here. Flay has been a very very clever boy.
Personally I think the poll is pretty clear. If your favorite option isn't winning don't start blaming the poll lol that's just silly. Just accept it, and move on.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Problem is the poll is some what biased based on the two things i said at the start. I didn't expect this to last more than 10 posts so its not acually clear what i said at start so I'll change the original post so its more clear on how its biased.
There are in fact 5 choose 4 possibilities, and every possible permutation thereof, which comes out to be 120 distinct possible permutations of choices. There's always going to be someone who thinks, "Hey, it should be spore, umbra, bite, spike!" Flayra cares about the community, which is why he put up the options the testers and dev team were considering... It's not his job to put up every single possibility, nor is he considering every one. The fact is, of course the poll is biased. All polls are biased. The fact that the poll is in the forums is biasing! The fact that it's in the Beta Discussion forum more so!
I think, though, the point stands... Most people don't want bite on the lerk. It doesn't matter if you lerk every single minute you can, or if you've never lerked... Your votes count the same, for good reason. I don't care about losing bite, even if I lose many kills with it... What matters is that I support the decision because it forces the lerk class into an entirely supporting role. Let the PTs and vets worry about balance, the point was to ask, "Which combination seems best to you?" Present lerks may need bite to be productive, but I have all confidence in the testers' ability to root out any lerk weaknesses caused by the change.
<!--QuoteBegin--Spazmatic+May 18 2003, 10:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Spazmatic @ May 18 2003, 10:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There are in fact 5 choose 4 possibilities, and every possible permutation thereof, which comes out to be 120 distinct possible permutations of choices.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> there is only 5 options if order doesnt matter. Order doesn't matter when choosing what you want in the game. That comes second.
Comments
This isn't really in support of bite. Just I'm also highly against spores. Spores were always lame and always will be.
I think removing something so <b>fundamental</b> as a bite from the lerk is not good for the following reasons:
i) It's counter-intuitive (vicious bird thing has no bite/peck ? )
ii) It takes away from the atmosphere of the game...who can forget the decapatation scene in "Starship troopers" by the flying creatures ? I for one would fear the lerk alot more with the bite !
iii) Biting is fun !!
Although I never claimed that many kills with the bite, one kill does stand out in my mind. I was harassing a group of marines with spikes from a high-up vent. Eventually one gets a jetpack and comes on up... bite with some umbra sauce made quite a tasty lunch. Fun !!
If the bite is regarded as too powerful...why not reduce the damage somewhat then ? I think complete removal of a weapon is a very drastic move, which is bound to upset many players...why not compromise here ?
In my opinion most played the lerk as a support class anyway. I umbra'd countless fades that were on marine base attack missions.
So the vote goes to:
what we currently have (something quite versatile, both support and power)
1.1 current (pure support)
the hybrid: something that kind of removes the only hive-1 ranged attack, and a good harassing weapon that can be also a lethal weapon. (not so support anymore but also support in a sense)
Let me put it this way, if a marine does not see a good spike lerk first, that marine is dead. Now... in 1.1 silence stops shooting sounds as well as moving sounds... and you can't see the lerk's spikes? Can you guys even invision what a good spike lerk could do with that? Guys, I think it's time to <i>really</i> try to get to know spikes. Sure bite is skillful, and it may be a rush, but it is not the fundamental attack of the lerk. The lerk has 2 main attacks and you'd be hard pressed to convince me that one is fundamentally better than the other in the hands of the most skilled of players. It may be fundamental to how <i>you</i> play, but it really isn't all that much better than spike in killing marines.
I suspect that the reason Flayra did not include a option that doesn't include spore cloud is that he recognizes the spore cloud's tactical value. As Nemesis Zero said, it can be used to divide attacking forces. It can also be used to prevent a siege base from being set up. I'm sure that I could think up many other uses for it, given enough time. Spore cloud is a very unique weapon, unlike bite.
Also,
<!--QuoteBegin--Stakhanov+May 17 2003, 02:36 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Stakhanov @ May 17 2003, 02:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Waiting for the cavalry... hmmm whan an effective tactic to protect that exposed 2nd hive from the uber JP HMGs !
No OC stacking , no webs - how could the alien team prevent them from entering the hive room ?
Insufficient OC accuracy , nerfed spikes - what would occupy the JP HMG demoman's attention ?
No paralyze , no acid rockets - wth is the "cavalry" supposed to do ? The JP HMG may be the "official" counter to the Onos , but what's the counter to that ?
So the aliens are supposed to immediately catch the JPers when they land , or keep shooting pathetic spores/spikes until the comm runs out of ressource medspamming. Great , it's good to see how much strategies evolved since 1.04 !...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was under the impression that OC accuracy was drastically improved.
Yep, use them all the time (I never said I wanted spikes removed). However, in my experience at least, the lerk doesn't have enough energy to keep flapping + using spikes before Adrenaline, so you need to learn how to use bite as well (although this might be FPS related, I get pretty poor fps when there's a lot of action on-screen). Once marines start getting upgrades (armor #1 especially!), it's suicide to attack more than 1, max 2, at the same time with bite only before you get Umbra (this is assuming the marines can aim). So (at least I do this), you soften them up with spikes first, preferrably from a dark vent or something, and then, if you're confident, go for the kill with bite. I do use spikes, but I like bite more, and I absolutely hate spore cloud. Yes it is unique, yes it is support, yes it can be useful, but it's completely mindless and requires 0 skill. You can't become a "good sporeclouder". An ability that said "stand still on a hive to give a global 25% damage boost to all aliens" would be very useful support too, it would be unique, and it would be useful, but it would be incredibly boring.
By the way, is umbra still just as horribly overpowered in 1.1 as it is in 1.04? You'd guess that 500% more effective HP is a bit too powerful, no?
Bite>Spore.
Thats it.
So the vote goes to:
what we currently have (something quite versatile, both support and power)
1.1 current (pure support)
the hybrid: something that kind of removes the only hive-1 ranged attack, and a good harassing weapon that can be also a lethal weapon. (not so support anymore but also support in a sense) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for the thoughtful reply.
I think probably the sticking point for me is that I pretty much see the lerk as a support class now/ as is. At least thats the way I've seen it played for the most part. I guess there must be some uber/kamikaze lerks that can pull off insane tactics and so forth...but I've yet to see one in action myself. Can't count the number of times I've been in a vent (as a lerk) only to be killed by pistol fire before I can say 'oh geez I'm dead'.
Also, the most dangerous creatures are often the smaller/quicker critters... so a bird decimating a whole squad does not seem that unreasonable to me.
Another disturbing aspect about this thread is certain people who have drawn a line between "lerk spikers" and "lerk biters". To me this is quite silly guys, spiking and biting are two sides of the same coin. It is like martial artists that claim that "striking is better than grappling" or vice versa. You need both to be successful in my opinion...with "one being better than other" dictated solely by the needs of the particular situation. I.e. at range I'll spike and close I'll bite... simple as that.
... Which is a great ave. of playing.... but all classes should have several ways of playing it that acheive its overall purpouse. The 1.04 skulk for example is nice offensive unit, which is achived through multiple ways, not just one: they are nice for surprise attacks, 5 person charges (the third and up players will make it throught the gunfire), and with 2 hives they can also do 2 skulk rushes on farily skilled marines and win while being slightly outnumbered by closeing the range instantly and running circles around their oppent and whith 3 hives they can do all of the previous AND become living bombs for structure destruction or mass marine desposal... this is ONE unit, and it is NOT overpowered - it is a nicely ballanced unit with a multitude of different ways of doing the same thing - being offensive. This means that they are usefull for more than just one situation (its alright in a pure RTS when a unit only have one purpose, but when the players are the units, evey unit must have more than ONE thing it does so it is able to adapt to the situations it is in.
For example if you gave them slow running speed this would only allow them to fill the role of the supprise attacker - which in 1.04 is not always possilbe if you are fighting smart marines who always look aroud) and are versitle, a nessacy trait in ns for desiding what race to choose when you spawn. People are making comparisons to the 1.04 gorge with the new lerk, but I have fought skilled gorges before when attempting sololy complete a task and either lost or come close to loseing - they might have made every spit count (this can actualy do a lot of dammage if they all hit and the gorge can back up properly) or be skillfull with his ability to hid behind the 1 structure he had to build 2 offensive chambers and spit behind the lines... or trying very hard to get away from my shotgun in one case and web a very reluctant player... he won, but it tolk at least a minute and he was very hurt... and keep in mind this isn't even a support role that is the gorges main role, their main role is BUILDER but that didn't stop them.. perhaps part of the reason I had a hard time was because I had never faced this challange before (prehaps the main reason why marines seem to have a hart time killing biteing lerks, they just don't know what to do... its not a problem that that Private Joe comes across often (I usualy killed the lerks though <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> mainly I usualy said to myself, "Your not that great a lerk, I can kill you with a lmg. Fool for underestamating my tatics. If I was that lerk, this marine I am would be dead" but that's a little off topic) and he is thrown out of place when he <b>does</b> come across it.
This is the reason why on a average server I am able to get away with (if I so chose) flying around like an idiot and spikeing them from inside their base, yet on a skilled server I have to go with the bite + dart to live... I know I'm repeating myself but the real reason most marines can't kill a semi-skilled lerk is they don't know HOW... but back to what I was talking about... other classes (even the non-offensive non-support gorge) when push coes to shove, can defend himself against a supprised marine (I was supprised the gorge was so skilled at dodgeing). Perhaps what I mean to say, is that a good class (all alieans should be a good class in NS) can push the boundries of his capabilites for nesseties sake...
Oh yes, I was talking about every class is its own universe that few players tend to explore. Most (I REALY don't want to brag, but I'm just using myself as an example because I'm crazy/ballsy/fairly-skilled) peole thought I was stupdi when I went into the deathtrap of the turret farm to kill the two marine there and then break the overlooked crack in the com's strategy by eating most of the factory to death before the turrets finaly got to me... but by that time the other skulks who were previously sitting back thinking that their class can't do anything usefull in this situation realised that they didn't need a 3 hive fade to take care of this and finished it off for me (I don't know, but I think this is the closest think a Kharra can do to becoming a leader... encurage his brethren to fight the fight that they don't belive they can do... I love the odds being against me and being outnumbered... I love how everyone see me go out there and make a seeming syco move... which it is, and get fairly far before the massive odds finaly crush me... and everyone else says "charge!!" ... this is why I usualy play as skulk and lerk...)
As for the Fades? well... I found 1.04 Fades too 2d <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> Perhaps its because I usualy went lerk not only because there were too many fades and umbra and arial support was needed, but because the lerk is a good rally point (when I play him at least). I think of it as a "Flag Bearer" with a sharp spear and the end of the flag and a pistol on the side (yah sucky analogy...). On public servers, fades realy need to know that they are much more effective at close range, and they see this little guy fly to them, ubmra them and say, "Okey, now charge" and fly onward the the action and umbra, something clicks in their mind... "I should be the most effective I can."...
... As for the person who said this is realy being selfish, I beg to differ only on a realy good day do I get more kills than most of the fades (meaning 2nd place in team or so, when fades are common i'm usualy only at the 50% mark instead of the previous 3rd {this is on a server with a lot of skilled players though}), but me telling them to charge and providing surpport where it isneeded rather than where they are causes them to be all they can, rather than be acid spammers.. I actualy supported those fades, and supported those skulks who were too afraid to enter before (i'm thinking of eclipse main for some reason).. I might have gotten only 2-3 kills while the fades got 5 each (minimum) and skulks did nicely themselves... I was too buisy drawing attention to realy do much real dammage... and I ask (I don't wish to flame)... How is this selfish... How did this hurt the team?? If the marines had gotten smart a second they would have gotten next to the door in pairs and as the doors opened again rushed the lerks with hmg's and the fades would have died. This would have been the result of me "sitting back" and "supporting" the current situation...
Back to what I was saying before.. 1.04 fades do have a multitude of ways to fill the "warrior" class as well. They have the ability to do heavy dammage to marines (I always liked rocket+rocket then blink then swipe myself...) as well as structures (bile bomb and swipe)... all filling the "warrior" role... although I think in 1.04 they don't realy have the proper set of abilites to most effectivly complete this task... and from what PT'ers say of 1.1 they sound very broken and unplayed... I hope that they are able to fill their role better through more than through just one or two avenues... as for the onos... 1.1 should make them more ballanced I hope for their role of "juggernaut" a role which is fun to play for many people (actulay I think onos doesn't need to be that vercitle to fill the role of juggernaut) <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> ... so we see that yes, the Kharaa do have roles... and if it is a good class, these roles are flexible... if lerks are realy too good with bite (I might have said it before, but I don't have much of a problem killing them, but many players do), then reduse thieir dammage... because with new flight and the cling ability they should be able to fill their flexible other half of thier role better and with primal scream and a projectile umbra this should encurrage and underline the <u>surpport</u> part of their role better.
Arg. That was long... as for those saying that lerk is going to be a support only (god i've been typing so long i'm not sure if I said this before) PT'ers say it isn't. They say they mostly snipe. CURRENTLY they are mostly snipe and fairly good at taking down lone marines in halls... and fairly weak at support... lets think of this game for a second not just as a dream of the creator but as the playland of many CURRENT players. yes there will always be those who will resist all change no matter what it is, and I am glad to say I am not one of those poeple. HOWEVER, if one takes the things in the previous vertion that players loved and reworked them into a more creative way, then I welcome change. If I only loved the sniper and the support aspect of the lerk, i would care little about the removal of lerk. But many players love the "air support" aspect of this class, and I am one of them. I DO want to be support, I DONT want to feel like a ubmra/primal B**ch. Perhaps why the smaller Kharaa need to be versitle is their lack of hp (someone said the marines were vercitle and the Kharaa were specified... I belive I have stated how the Kharaa are specified, but they are vercitle within their role). If I and others who loved the support and the flying attack (no I don't consiter dart a very good flying attack) get ostrasized... well then... then we would be betrayed. Yes, I am not against game developers but that's what you would do to players, betray them (after all, your choseing the skills they had in previous vertions are what caused them to love that that aspect of that class with).
Quite frankly, I find it very depressing that the title of the poll is "1.1 lerk, bite or dart". To say we shall betray the 55 present of lerk-lovers who would rather be sniper and support or betray the 45 present of players who fell in love with the airbandit/support is cruel. Now I realise this was not the intention of the poll. The intention of the poll was to ask the honest opinion of the furture of lerks. Thats why I am saddend to see that choice. I realy wander if flayra understood what various memers of the community meant when they said "AHHH YOU REMOVED BITE, ARE YOU INSAIN". And I realy don't blame him for it. As for that "hot list" I realy hope I'm not on it, because I try to make my posts thought out (even if they become rambles, they arn't rants), but quite frankly if you realy don't like what I have to say, then you don't like what I have to say.
To finally end this *hears everyone say yay!!! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> *, don't remove bite, but if it is far too powerfull, tone down the dammage it does, or replace it with a fly-by attack (one that does dammage based on how fast we are going or something silly like that would hopefully make it for those of us who love to fly (and it would make the umbra + melee combo not too unbeatable)). You were were the ones that filled this nich (actualy 2 niches) that was lacking in any game I (and others) had ever played before. Thank you for the lerk.
*edited to hurt eyes less... don't complain please... I like to leave opened ended senctences as I belive you should make up your own mind based on facts that I leave up to you*
Support role is needed for the alien team, and the lerk fits it nicly.
Support role is needed for the alien team, and the lerk fits it nicly. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
*SIGH* If you arn't going to read my three page post, at least read my previous posts or skim through my long one please. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
(i'm not flameing you, its just I spent a LOT of time explaing why I agree with you)
Bite is about 4.2 spikes in damage. Any ideas how long it takes to shoot that many spikes? Almost none. If you can keep your targetter on a marine that's moving, while you're moving, you're sickeningly powerful as a lerk. Sniping or up close it doesn't matter. You can pump those spikes into marines so fast they go down before you get a <i>chance</i> to bite. If, on one of your biting runs, you spiked the whole time you saw that marine (and hit), they would most likely be dead before you got into bite range.
Also, you can spike-lerk without adrenalin, you'd be hard pressed to down more than one marine while dodging fire, but you can take one out easy, more if you can afford not to fly. I'll say again, taking away bite will not really affect the lerk's ability to function as a combat alien. It will change <i>how</i> it functions for <i>some</i>, but it wont be a nerf persay. I know this, because I don't really bite. I don't have to play 1.1 to knpw whether this is true, because I've been playing this way since I first played the lerk. The only change I see that might affect the lerk's ability to be in combat is the change to damage, to flight and to attack speed, but none of you have brought that up so I wont.
Also, that the playtesters are using lerks to snipe means nothing. Playstyle preference plays a very large part in how people play. If you view the lerk as a sniper and like that playstyle, that's how you're going to play the lerk. It doesn't automatically mean that it is the only way to play the lerk or even the best or most effective. It just means that the playtesters you have heard from prefer to play that way. Did any of them say specifically that the lerk is a gimped combat alien?
What I want you guys to understand is that a lerk can be awesome without bite. If you still want to say that you wont like the new playstyle of the lerk, well, I can't stop you. But I really wish you'd drop the arguments that this will gimp the lerk as a combat alien. It wont. Plenty of people own with spikes, and own hard. A lerk barren of bite is not a gimped lerk. Please try to understand that.
Also, Akin, I really hate making comments on people's grammar, particularly on the internet, but that first "paragraph" of yours made my brain hurt. Could you please split that up? Even if you break it at non-logical points, at least it wont be so... big. I must confess I just skimmed it when I read, so I can't be completely sure if I got all your points.
Oh that and 1.04 spike does 18 dammage, not 16. 1.1 bringing it back to 16 (nessacry because of silence)
Fixed it, hehe, yes, you still won't like it, but now its 10 para + edit sent instead of 3 para X_X
I personally don't want to see the Bite gone, but if that's the way people envision the Lerk, and is the way the devs choose to move forward on, there's no point complaining about it.
Make your statement, but don't then fight over which is better, because it only makes your own 'side' look petty.
Fin.
let's see how it turns out and we will see if its bad or not. We never tried no-biting, maybe it will be horribly bad but maybe it's going to be the new passion of all of us. I trust the PTers and Flayra for having a good opinion and making the best possible lerk. Both in power and flavor.
i just trust flayra, im shure he will the best possible
Quite frankly, I find it very depressing that the title of the poll is "1.1 lerk, bite or dart". To say we shall betray the 55 present of lerk-lovers who would rather be sniper and support or betray the 45 present of players who fell in love with the airbandit/support is cruel. Now I realise this was not the intention of the poll. The intention of the poll was to ask the honest opinion of the furture of lerks. Thats why I am saddend to see that choice. I realy wander if flayra understood what various memers of the community meant when they said "AHHH YOU REMOVED BITE, ARE YOU INSAIN". And I realy don't blame him for it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I read that whole thing. That was long. It was great. Heres a nice part.
lerks now fly much slower overall (especially down long hallways) thus disabling them from getting away from marines as quick. they get gunned down a lot more.
too much, too soon
When the hive is under attack you umbra the hive and BITE the jper. Trying to do that with spikes would just be harder.
And when playing as marines I would much much rather be attacked by a lerk diving at my face then be walking around and dying from something I can't see or here. It is fun fending off dive bombing lerks and it's challenging to fight lerks supporting with umbra since it changes the battlefield so much. It's hard since you cant just run up and knife them since they have BITE.
Wow. Just, wow...
Anyways, I still think lerks offer more team play. If you want bite, get a skulk to come with you. And flying is easier in 1.1 since flying cost is decreased.
Me.
Me.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
me too, im looking forward to playing decoy or "spore dude in the vent".
Flay has been a very very clever boy.
Personally I think the poll is pretty clear. If your favorite option isn't winning don't start blaming the poll lol that's just silly.
Just accept it, and move on.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Problem is the poll is some what biased based on the two things i said at the start. I didn't expect this to last more than 10 posts so its not acually clear what i said at start so I'll change the original post so its more clear on how its biased.
There are in fact 5 choose 4 possibilities, and every possible permutation thereof, which comes out to be 120 distinct possible permutations of choices. There's always going to be someone who thinks, "Hey, it should be spore, umbra, bite, spike!" Flayra cares about the community, which is why he put up the options the testers and dev team were considering... It's not his job to put up every single possibility, nor is he considering every one. The fact is, of course the poll is biased. All polls are biased. The fact that the poll is in the forums is biasing! The fact that it's in the Beta Discussion forum more so!
I think, though, the point stands... Most people don't want bite on the lerk. It doesn't matter if you lerk every single minute you can, or if you've never lerked... Your votes count the same, for good reason. I don't care about losing bite, even if I lose many kills with it... What matters is that I support the decision because it forces the lerk class into an entirely supporting role. Let the PTs and vets worry about balance, the point was to ask, "Which combination seems best to you?" Present lerks may need bite to be productive, but I have all confidence in the testers' ability to root out any lerk weaknesses caused by the change.
there is only 5 options if order doesnt matter. Order doesn't matter when choosing what you want in the game. That comes second.