<!--QuoteBegin--Ryo-Ohki+May 18 2003, 10:27 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ryo-Ohki @ May 18 2003, 10:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is a typical attitude of people frustrated that they can't bunnyhop, or cope with people who do. The removal of bunnyhopping won't cripple my game by any means, but it is kind of grating to see so many ignorants hooting about their disability being taking away. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just love the way that supporters of bhopping automaticaly assume that the ONLY reason people don't like it is because they can't do it. Well I'll throw my lot in here and say the following: I can bhop and I use it in TFC. It's become a part of that game and the deathmatch type atmosphere supports it. Should it be in NS? Only on skulks in my opinion. The general feel of a skulk being able to do this does fit the concept of them being fast, agile little attackers. Marines, hell NO.
The devs have stated until they are blue in the face that the marines are about the TEAM, not individual skills. One players' "elite" |3h0pp1|\|g should not be the reason for a marine victory. Nor should a vanilla marine be able to move way faster than a skulk. Jetpacks and phase gates are the marine methods of rapid transportation, not the ability to exploit a physics bug <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I play as marine heaps in NS, and very frequently achieve wins with teamwork, communication and orgainisation. I don't bhop in NS. hence the attitude of many which seems to be "omg no bhopping marines r gonna be pwned!!1111" is, as far as I'm concerned, incorrect and ill-founded.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well said.
For the record, I can bhop very good. I used to be a hardcore TFC dude...
<!--QuoteBegin--Melkor+May 18 2003, 05:20 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Melkor @ May 18 2003, 05:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--Diskord+May 18 2003, 04:10 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Diskord @ May 18 2003, 04:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Instead of having marines slow down after each jump, why not have them be able to jump once with no penalty, twice with a tid bit of slow down, and then a third time and get the full slow down? I have yet to see anyone, even really really chubby guys, jump once then grab their chest and huff "wooh, hold on guys, one more minute." Besides, you can't bunny hop jumping once =P.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I have yet to hear of anyone jumping up and down in combat. Diving yes. Bunnyhoping no. Try to think about it realisticaly(yes I know its a game, bare with me). A marine's best shot at survival should not be hopping around. It looks lame and is totally impossible. A marine should have a better chance at survival by staying with a group, staying cool, and blasting the skulk with as much accuracy as possible. Hopping around with this dog type thing yapping at your heals should not work. That is the atmosphere and gameplay that Nemesis is talking about.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The problem is that most FPS are very primitive in the movement/dodging department. Yes, IRL, I wouldn't really be able to dodge by jumping around. Granted. However, I would be able to dive, roll, pivot, fall flat on my stomach, move/use objects in my environment to better dodge/deflect/avoid attacks etc.
In NS, I can do none of that. The only thing that comes close to being a replacement for these IRL abilities of dodging/avoiding being hurt is, get this, jumping around. It is being removed. Now a marine will essentially be the equivalent of a turret on rails that can get over minor obstacles. So much for the immersion.
<!--QuoteBegin--Kazyras+May 18 2003, 10:58 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kazyras @ May 18 2003, 10:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--Melkor+May 18 2003, 05:20 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Melkor @ May 18 2003, 05:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--Diskord+May 18 2003, 04:10 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Diskord @ May 18 2003, 04:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Instead of having marines slow down after each jump, why not have them be able to jump once with no penalty, twice with a tid bit of slow down, and then a third time and get the full slow down? I have yet to see anyone, even really really chubby guys, jump once then grab their chest and huff "wooh, hold on guys, one more minute." Besides, you can't bunny hop jumping once =P.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I have yet to hear of anyone jumping up and down in combat. Diving yes. Bunnyhoping no. Try to think about it realisticaly(yes I know its a game, bare with me). A marine's best shot at survival should not be hopping around. It looks lame and is totally impossible. A marine should have a better chance at survival by staying with a group, staying cool, and blasting the skulk with as much accuracy as possible. Hopping around with this dog type thing yapping at your heals should not work. That is the atmosphere and gameplay that Nemesis is talking about.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The problem is that most FPS are very primitive in the movement/dodging department. Yes, IRL, I wouldn't really be able to dodge by jumping around. Granted. However, I would be able to dive, roll, pivot, fall flat on my stomach, move/use objects in my environment to better dodge/deflect/avoid attacks etc.
In NS, I can do none of that. The only thing that comes close to being a replacement for these IRL abilities of dodging/avoiding being hurt is, get this, jumping around. It is being removed. Now a marine will essentially be the equivalent of a turret on rails that can get over minor obstacles. So much for the immersion.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You can still dodge aliens by jumping... it's just gonna take some more skill now, that's all.
if you let a bunnyhopping marine own your skulking, get better at skulking because it never stopped any of the good skulks i know from getting their target. Surprise the marine, dont run head on. It's the same with the people that whine about pistol scripts. They get owned by pistol scripts because they dont know how to skulk. They run straight at a marine or stand still trying to parasite the marine. Now I think there should be a bhop fix but not one this limiting. Basically like someone said before it's gonna turn marines into turrets. And it's not just jumping out of the way. What about epic battles in mess hall where you jump over the table to evade a skulk? Or over structures in a marine base?
<!--QuoteBegin--Lucid+May 19 2003, 03:54 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lucid @ May 19 2003, 03:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> if you let a bunnyhopping marine own your skulking, get better at skulking because it never stopped any of the good skulks i know from getting their target. Surprise the marine, dont run head on. It's the same with the people that whine about pistol scripts. They get owned by pistol scripts because they dont know how to skulk. They run straight at a marine or stand still trying to parasite the marine. Now I think there should be a bhop fix but not one this limiting. Basically like someone said before it's gonna turn marines into turrets. And it's not just jumping out of the way. What about epic battles in mess hall where you jump over the table to evade a skulk? Or over structures in a marine base? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> yeah.. mess hall battles r0x0rz
Hasnt stopped me from jumping over things, or being mobile in a fight
However it does stop me from bhopping. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Lucid+May 19 2003, 04:54 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lucid @ May 19 2003, 04:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It's the same with the people that whine about pistol scripts. They get owned by pistol scripts because they dont know how to skulk. They run straight at a marine or stand still trying to parasite the marine. Now I think there should be a bhop fix but not one this limiting. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Pistols scripts aren't cheap.... okay pal... whatever you say....
just like bhopping isn't cheap at all... nor are bhopping scripts...
That's right, my marines are trained in gymnastics with guns.
anyway, the bhop nerf works pretty well, and you can hop like a psycho still so be happy. Comparing it to CS probably wasnt the best way to say it though.
<!--QuoteBegin--Kazyras+May 18 2003, 09:58 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kazyras @ May 18 2003, 09:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The problem is that most FPS are very primitive in the movement/dodging department. Yes, IRL, I wouldn't really be able to dodge by jumping around. Granted. However, I would be able to dive, roll, pivot, fall flat on my stomach, move/use objects in my environment to better dodge/deflect/avoid attacks etc.
In NS, I can do none of that. The only thing that comes close to being a replacement for these IRL abilities of dodging/avoiding being hurt is, get this, jumping around. It is being removed. Now a marine will essentially be the equivalent of a turret on rails that can get over minor obstacles. So much for the immersion.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> On the other hand, the skulks cannot hide in a large drawer, locker, or in the seat of an empty cc, which they would be able to do IRL. Also, the marines aren't forced to eat or go to the toilet, and the aliens don't have to go worship and pay tribute to the hive every 15 minutes. Why don't they put some realism in this game? What about the Lerk? He flies into a wall without breaking his wings and falling to the floor? And have you ever seen someone with a jetpack flying through a vent, scraping his head at the ceiling as he goes? Look at the Onos, they shouldn't be able to climb ladders! The ladders would break under their weight! And Fades? C'mon, where are all those rockets coming from? Being generated out of thin air? They should have to run back to the hive to restock (and pay tribute). Same goes for the Gorge's babblers. And Heavy Armor guys that can crouch? In something that stiff? Light Armor guys firing an entire mag of hmg ammo without getting thrown over by the recoil? WHAT IS THIS GAME COMING TO?
why do you people think that bhoping is the balancing problem? the problem is being able to move faster when jumping, so the answer is to make jumping not give you any extra speed, and that has been fixed in 1.1
in real life people don't jump in combat, but in ns, there is no dodge bottom, there is flip the table over for cover button, but there is jump, and now its being removed? One reason you don't see jumping used in combat is because they are fighting other people and not things charging at you.
about atmosphere... who here as been to the future and has seen how marines fight aliens?? these marines could be carrying featherlight gear, be on mental/physical steriods(probally safe ones too by then) that increase hand-eye coordination and allow them to jump easily, and maybe even have evolved slightly
what i liked about ns was that the team needed cooperation to get things done, but at the same time, the individual needed fragging skills
<!--QuoteBegin--lolfighter+May 19 2003, 11:48 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (lolfighter @ May 19 2003, 11:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Kazyras+May 18 2003, 09:58 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kazyras @ May 18 2003, 09:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The problem is that most FPS are very primitive in the movement/dodging department. Yes, IRL, I wouldn't really be able to dodge by jumping around. Granted. However, I would be able to dive, roll, pivot, fall flat on my stomach, move/use objects in my environment to better dodge/deflect/avoid attacks etc.
In NS, I can do none of that. The only thing that comes close to being a replacement for these IRL abilities of dodging/avoiding being hurt is, get this, jumping around. It is being removed. Now a marine will essentially be the equivalent of a turret on rails that can get over minor obstacles. So much for the immersion.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> On the other hand, the skulks cannot hide in a large drawer, locker, or in the seat of an empty cc, which they would be able to do IRL. Also, the marines aren't forced to eat or go to the toilet, and the aliens don't have to go worship and pay tribute to the hive every 15 minutes. Why don't they put some realism in this game? What about the Lerk? He flies into a wall without breaking his wings and falling to the floor? And have you ever seen someone with a jetpack flying through a vent, scraping his head at the ceiling as he goes? Look at the Onos, they shouldn't be able to climb ladders! The ladders would break under their weight! And Fades? C'mon, where are all those rockets coming from? Being generated out of thin air? They should have to run back to the hive to restock (and pay tribute). Same goes for the Gorge's babblers. And Heavy Armor guys that can crouch? In something that stiff? Light Armor guys firing an entire mag of hmg ammo without getting thrown over by the recoil? WHAT IS THIS GAME COMING TO? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> OMG. What a great idea!!! The commander could build a toilet, and then the marines would have to use it every so often, we could have a bladder-o-meter, and even better we could add a coke machine and a chocolate machine, which when used would make u move faster and fire more accurately, but would fill ur bladder-o-meter up quicker!!!
here's a solution to the bunnyhopping problem that will please everyone (including SilverFox) ...
Yeah, 'nuff said. Let them handle the B-hop issue. I'm <b>almost positive</b> that they won't allow for an air velocity increase so that skulks can keep bunnyhopping till they can clear a lake. Flayra isn't stupid. Another factor-what sounds more like captain kangaroo? The guy with the lmg, or the guy who can only bite you?
Quit'cher*****'en [edit] oh, I should post a reason, this topic has been discussed so often that those pictures don't even seem annoying [/edit]
<!--QuoteBegin--lolfighter+May 19 2003, 05:48 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (lolfighter @ May 19 2003, 05:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Kazyras+May 18 2003, 09:58 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kazyras @ May 18 2003, 09:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The problem is that most FPS are very primitive in the movement/dodging department. Yes, IRL, I wouldn't really be able to dodge by jumping around. Granted. However, I would be able to dive, roll, pivot, fall flat on my stomach, move/use objects in my environment to better dodge/deflect/avoid attacks etc.
In NS, I can do none of that. The only thing that comes close to being a replacement for these IRL abilities of dodging/avoiding being hurt is, get this, jumping around. It is being removed. Now a marine will essentially be the equivalent of a turret on rails that can get over minor obstacles. So much for the immersion.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> On the other hand, the skulks cannot hide in a large drawer, locker, or in the seat of an empty cc, which they would be able to do IRL. Also, the marines aren't forced to eat or go to the toilet, and the aliens don't have to go worship and pay tribute to the hive every 15 minutes. Why don't they put some realism in this game? What about the Lerk? He flies into a wall without breaking his wings and falling to the floor? And have you ever seen someone with a jetpack flying through a vent, scraping his head at the ceiling as he goes? Look at the Onos, they shouldn't be able to climb ladders! The ladders would break under their weight! And Fades? C'mon, where are all those rockets coming from? Being generated out of thin air? They should have to run back to the hive to restock (and pay tribute). Same goes for the Gorge's babblers. And Heavy Armor guys that can crouch? In something that stiff? Light Armor guys firing an entire mag of hmg ammo without getting thrown over by the recoil? WHAT IS THIS GAME COMING TO? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I think I just peed my pants laughing at that.
<!--QuoteBegin--Speed 2 Dave+May 19 2003, 06:41 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Speed 2 Dave @ May 19 2003, 06:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> here's a solution to the bunnyhopping problem that will please everyone (including SilverFox) ...
Yeah, 'nuff said. Let them handle the B-hop issue. I'm <b>almost positive</b> that they won't allow for an air velocity increase so that skulks can keep bunnyhopping till they can clear a lake. Flayra isn't stupid. Another factor-what sounds more like captain kangaroo? The guy with the lmg, or the guy who can only bite you?
Quit'cher*****'en [edit] oh, I should post a reason, this topic has been discussed so often that those pictures don't even seem annoying [/edit] <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> the sad part is... I actually like that idea. I mean, look at all the nubs you could get out of the way because they would be too busy using the potty and cracking (no pun) stupid jokes about the toliet instead of dropping tfs all over the map with cc's <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Melkor+May 18 2003, 05:20 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Melkor @ May 18 2003, 05:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Diskord+May 18 2003, 04:10 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Diskord @ May 18 2003, 04:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Instead of having marines slow down after each jump, why not have them be able to jump once with no penalty, twice with a tid bit of slow down, and then a third time and get the full slow down? I have yet to see anyone, even really really chubby guys, jump once then grab their chest and huff "wooh, hold on guys, one more minute." Besides, you can't bunny hop jumping once =P.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I have yet to hear of anyone jumping up and down in combat. Diving yes. Bunnyhoping no. Try to think about it realisticaly(yes I know its a game, bare with me). A marine's best shot at survival should not be hopping around. It looks lame and is totally impossible. A marine should have a better chance at survival by staying with a group, staying cool, and blasting the skulk with as much accuracy as possible. Hopping around with this dog type thing yapping at your heals should not work. That is the atmosphere and gameplay that Nemesis is talking about. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Why is it impossible? Cuz you're out of shape?
What COMBAT has any marine every seen involving skulks? Do you bhop when fighting fades?!
And NO, the Counter-Strike system is even more unrealistic. If you want Marines to lose ability then give them fatigue.
===========
Jumping over skulks is legit, think about jumping over a dog. All you have to do is not let Marines jump as high and not let them break the speed limit, so to speak, which is the main problem with bhopping, you can bhop faster than a skulk can move if you do it right.
Set Marine jumping height so that they can still jump over skulks but all the skulk has to do is look up and bite. Course skulks will start to anticipate this, but in this way jumping may be preserved, even if useless, and both pro bhop and anti bhop whiners can be happy.
You can bhop for quite a while if you are in shape. OF COURSE it will be hard if not impossible to keep dodging a dog, but it IS possible to jump over him. That's why I believe that being able to jump over should be allowed, but have the jump height reduced or something equivalent such that skulks can easily counter it. Blatant game breaking such as going past the speed limit should of course be fixed.
ATMOSPHERE bullsh*t - yeah, real marines fight skulks or, real marines wouldn't try to get out of the way, however ineffective, or, real marines can run forever
I have a question. If you are so bent on atmosphere, Y NOT give a fatigue meter, to both sides? This is more reasonable than the toilet thing - y not? Y not cuz it sucks for NS that's why, this ain't a WW2 simulation. *expletive*
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
Even if you could jump, roll, dive, breakdance or backflip, I really don't see what the issue is.
IF YOU ALLOW A SKULK TO GET CLOSE YOU SHOULD DIE. THAT'S THE GAME CONCEPT. THE SKULK HAS A MOUTHFUL OF TEETH, RATHER THAN KITTENS, FOR A REASON.
Saying that bunnyhopping is analogous to dodging the skulk or pulling off some neat close combat trick is utter nonsense. Where's the skulks room to pull off their "special" close combat trick in return?
Perhaps you should focus your skill in an area we have no problem with. Like aiming. Or tactics.
Bunnyhopping is an exploit, which people use perfectly legitimately, because it's a feature common to HL mods that we haven't killed off yet. Sadly, it effects gameplay in a manner which we consider unacceptable. So it is going.
<!--QuoteBegin--Speed 2 Dave+May 19 2003, 06:41 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Speed 2 Dave @ May 19 2003, 06:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Another factor-what sounds more like captain kangaroo? The guy with the lmg, or the guy who can only bite you? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, you'd think...
<!--QuoteBegin--Grendel+May 19 2003, 07:21 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ May 19 2003, 07:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> THE SKULK HAS A MOUTHFUL OF TEETH, RATHER THAN KITTENS, FOR A REASON. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You know, those two aren't mutually exclusive. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I "bhop" only for the comedy value - in all games. "weeee I'm a bouncing marine/gorge/whatever weeee!!" I therefore don't care if it's removed. Using "bhop" to gain speed = bad using "bhop" to jump around like a loony and look like an idiot = goodish.
<!--QuoteBegin--Grendel+May 19 2003, 07:21 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ May 19 2003, 07:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Even if you could jump, roll, dive, breakdance or backflip, I really don't see what the issue is.
IF YOU ALLOW A SKULK TO GET CLOSE YOU SHOULD DIE. THAT'S THE GAME CONCEPT. THE SKULK HAS A MOUTHFUL OF TEETH, RATHER THAN KITTENS, FOR A REASON.
Saying that bunnyhopping is analogous to dodging the skulk or pulling off some neat close combat trick is utter nonsense. Where's the skulks room to pull off their "special" close combat trick in return?
Perhaps you should focus your skill in an area we have no problem with. Like aiming. Or tactics.
Bunnyhopping is an exploit, which people use perfectly legitimately, because it's a feature common to HL mods that we haven't killed off yet. Sadly, it effects gameplay in a manner which we consider unacceptable. So it is going. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If you could roll, dive etc. the issue is that you would have a greater ability to dodge a skulk at close range. It would give you more options to deal with a close range encounter in other words.
Saying that if you "allow a skulk" to get close you should die is something that I consider nonsense. Ever think that maybe good skulk players might just be able to <b>force a close range</b> fight ?
<!--QuoteBegin--Moon+May 19 2003, 09:15 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Moon @ May 19 2003, 09:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ever think that maybe good skulk players might just be able to <b>force a close range</b> fight ? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'>THATS THE FREAKEN POINT!!!</span>
<!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+May 19 2003, 08:28 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ May 19 2003, 08:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Moon+May 19 2003, 09:15 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Moon @ May 19 2003, 09:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ever think that maybe good skulk players might just be able to <b>force a close range</b> fight ? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <span style='font-size:15pt;line-height:100%'>THATS THE FREAKEN POINT!!!</span> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Note that "THATS THE FREAKEN POINT!!!" has been scaled down and this is only a dramatization of someone that equates size with value of content.
Care to elaborate on that somewhat ? My point is that close range fighting is not always avoidable for a marine... and your point is what exactly ? You believe that a marine should always lose at close range or what ? If this is the case, I disagree.
<!--QuoteBegin--Moon+May 19 2003, 08:38 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Moon @ May 19 2003, 08:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+May 19 2003, 08:28 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ May 19 2003, 08:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Moon+May 19 2003, 09:15 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Moon @ May 19 2003, 09:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ever think that maybe good skulk players might just be able to <b>force a close range</b> fight ? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <span style='font-size:15pt;line-height:100%'>THATS THE FREAKEN POINT!!!</span> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Note that "THATS THE FREAKEN POINT!!!" has been scaled down and this is only a dramatization of someone that equates size with value of content.
Care to elaborate on that somewhat ? My point is that close range fighting is not always avoidable for a marine... and your point is what exactly ? You believe that a marine should always lose at close range or what ? If this is the case, I disagree. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Skulks loose at ranged combat, marines loose at close quarters, sometimes the skulk is unable to get close enough to win, other times the marine has no choice but to go to a place which is easy for close quarters fighting.
It's called balance. If the marine would win both on close quarters and in ranged battle, why bother playing alien, you'll just die every time.
If the marine always have the advantage of range, why bother playing alien?
The game isn't a single-player kill all the aliens and get to the boss (hive) in the end. it's two different sides with different strengths and weaknesses. Sometimes you have the advantage, other times the other team has the advantage, and if you can't live with that, you should go back to single player and god mode.
His point was that marines should be far more disadvantaged at point-blank ranges than they are now.
Also, i assume, that once the skulk gets his teeth sunk into the marine the outcome should be much more certain than it is now. The marine shouldn't automatically die -of course- but simply disappearing out of the skulk's FOV in a heartbeat, bouncing away backwards (fast-as-the-skulk-can-run) while reloading his lmg and opening up (accurately) or stowing it, getting his pistol out and nailing the skulk between the eyes 5 times... shoudn't be all that common.
Comparing jumping (<i>especially</i> with the invincible leg syndrome <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo--> that plagues ns at the mo) to "some kinda elite evasive movement" cos the rines are wearing "feather-lite kit" and are "wacked out on all sortsa stims" is interesting... though where's the skulk's equivalent? Do they bite the marine, then calmly let go and watch as he does a faultless full-extended-half-pike away from them across the room, wishing to the hive-gods that they were half so agile or quick-reactioned as the top-heavy squishy things? hmm... i think if you want to abstract the marine's ability to push the alien off him and dive behind the nearest table/dividing-wall/teammate then there are a hundred better ways to do it than jumping. because: 1. If it's abstracted, it should be very much out of your (the player's) hands. 2. It is already in place; with your ability to take a bite, keep functioning at <b>full</b> ability, not be missing the use of a limb, and not have the skulk's teeth still firmly entrenched (and chewing) in some part of you you'd rather keep tooth-free.
You already get no contact-friction of any kind, the skulk already glides off you like you're in a glass box (which in game terms, you are). It already takes 2 (or 3 if your comm will oblige) bites to kill you, which gives you the same survival time at point-blank (even if you don't move an inch!) as the skulk gets at a distance.
As had been mentioned earlier, I wish some kind of fix was thought up on NS's original release, if everyone had been thrown in at the deep-end with no bhopping and little evasive jumping (yes, "little" : one jump out of the way when a skulk bites you isn't so bad at all - over the benches in messhall and another back the other way after a second for e.g.) everyone would have taken it at face value. just like if there was no AWP in CS right from the start. Nobody would have clamoured for it to be included and the game would be unarguably better for it.
lol @ 2nd look at CS comment... insert obligatory flame-retardant pun here... /ducks
um.. i dont bhop that much.. i usually do it whenever a skulk tries to bite me, but 90% i still get mauled.. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--K'Ragg+May 19 2003, 08:59 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (K'Ragg @ May 19 2003, 08:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Moon+May 19 2003, 08:38 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Moon @ May 19 2003, 08:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+May 19 2003, 08:28 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ May 19 2003, 08:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Moon+May 19 2003, 09:15 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Moon @ May 19 2003, 09:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ever think that maybe good skulk players might just be able to <b>force a close range</b> fight ? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <span style='font-size:15pt;line-height:100%'>THATS THE FREAKEN POINT!!!</span> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> ... Care to elaborate on that somewhat ? My point is that close range fighting is not always avoidable for a marine... and your point is what exactly ? You believe that a marine should always lose at close range or what ? If this is the case, I disagree. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Skulks loose at ranged combat, marines loose at close quarters, sometimes the skulk is unable to get close enough to win, other times the marine has no choice but to go to a place which is easy for close quarters fighting.
It's called balance. If the marine would win both on close quarters and in ranged battle, why bother playing alien, you'll just die every time.
If the marine always have the advantage of range, why bother playing alien?
The game isn't a single-player kill all the aliens and get to the boss (hive) in the end. it's two different sides with different strengths and weaknesses. Sometimes you have the advantage, other times the other team has the advantage, and if you can't live with that, you should go back to single player and god mode. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree with you in spirit that the skulk should have an advantage at close range. But my point still stands that marines should not <b>always</b> lose at close range. Just as a skulk should not automatically die at long range i.e. it should have a chance to close the distance.
Clearly the developers do not want a situation where skulks win at close range continuously either. Thus the official reason for the skulk bite (given to me) was to blind the skulk just enough to give marines a better chance of putting up a fight at close range. I.e. it was done for balance...which as you rightly said is obviously important to everyone playing the game.
Nobody really likes a one-sided game (including me).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But my point still stands that marines should not <b>always</b> lose at close range.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How do you know this new jump will mean the marines will "...<b>always</b> lose at close range."
I'm not saying you are right or wrong but what do you have to back up this point? <i>Speculations</i> based on your experience?
<!--QuoteBegin--[FD] Razmataz+May 19 2003, 09:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([FD] Razmataz @ May 19 2003, 09:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> His point was that marines should be far more disadvantaged at point-blank ranges than they are now.
Also, i assume, that once the skulk gets his teeth sunk into the marine the outcome should be much more certain than it is now. The marine shouldn't automatically die -of course- but simply disappearing out of the skulk's FOV in a heartbeat, bouncing away backwards (fast-as-the-skulk-can-run) while reloading his lmg and opening up (accurately) or stowing it, getting his pistol out and nailing the skulk between the eyes 5 times... shoudn't be all that common.
Comparing jumping (<i>especially</i> with the invincible leg syndrome <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo--> that plagues ns at the mo) to "some kinda elite evasive movement" cos the rines are wearing "feather-lite kit" and are "wacked out on all sortsa stims" is interesting... though where's the skulk's equivalent? Do they bite the marine, then calmly let go and watch as he does a faultless full-extended-half-pike away from them across the room, wishing to the hive-gods that they were half so agile or quick-reactioned as the top-heavy squishy things? hmm... i think if you want to abstract the marine's ability to push the alien off him and dive behind the nearest table/dividing-wall/teammate then there are a hundred better ways to do it than jumping. because: 1. If it's abstracted, it should be very much out of your (the player's) hands. 2. It is already in place; with your ability to take a bite, keep functioning at <b>full</b> ability, not be missing the use of a limb, and not have the skulk's teeth still firmly entrenched (and chewing) in some part of you you'd rather keep tooth-free.
You already get no contact-friction of any kind, the skulk already glides off you like you're in a glass box (which in game terms, you are). It already takes 2 (or 3 if your comm will oblige) bites to kill you, which gives you the same survival time at point-blank (even if you don't move an inch!) as the skulk gets at a distance.
As had been mentioned earlier, I wish some kind of fix was thought up on NS's original release, if everyone had been thrown in at the deep-end with no bhopping and little evasive jumping (yes, "little" : one jump out of the way when a skulk bites you isn't so bad at all - over the benches in messhall and another back the other way after a second for e.g.) everyone would have taken it at face value. just like if there was no AWP in CS right from the start. Nobody would have clamoured for it to be included and the game would be unarguably better for it.
lol @ 2nd look at CS comment... insert obligatory flame-retardant pun here... /ducks <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Thanks for the thoughtful reply.
I agree with you on one key point: Bunny-hopping around while a skulk is nipping at your heels does seem extremely ridiculous. I am not, <b>repeat not</b> a pro-bunny hopper. I do however support selective jumps to avoid skulk rushes. This of course raises the issue of how much jumping is too much jumping ? Everyone is going to have a different opinion here.
As for the idea of jumping representing some sort of alternate evasion... I find this works fairly well in terms of NS immersion. When it comes to realism, let's face facts: NS is hardly realistic in a number of ways. This is fine because gameplay comes first for most people.
You are quite right that there currently exists no alternative for a skulk... there is no way for a skulk to latch on, or trip, or disarm or any other number of plausible realistic attacks. So pretty much what we're left with is an abstraction for realistic fighting in any case. I don't see selective jumping as out of place at all.
As for advantages... skulks should win more close-range encounters...however they should not win all of them. Again this is evidenced by the fact that skulk-bites temporarily blind the skulk. Keep in mind also that there is no one-hit one-kill firearm available to marines either...so the intention here is clearly to allow skulks some chance to close the distance.
I think all in all we probably have pretty much the same point of view for the most part.
Comments
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I just love the way that supporters of bhopping automaticaly assume that the ONLY reason people don't like it is because they can't do it. Well I'll throw my lot in here and say the following: I can bhop and I use it in TFC. It's become a part of that game and the deathmatch type atmosphere supports it. Should it be in NS? Only on skulks in my opinion. The general feel of a skulk being able to do this does fit the concept of them being fast, agile little attackers. Marines, hell NO.
The devs have stated until they are blue in the face that the marines are about the TEAM, not individual skills. One players' "elite" |3h0pp1|\|g should not be the reason for a marine victory. Nor should a vanilla marine be able to move way faster than a skulk. Jetpacks and phase gates are the marine methods of rapid transportation, not the ability to exploit a physics bug <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I play as marine heaps in NS, and very frequently achieve wins with teamwork, communication and orgainisation. I don't bhop in NS. hence the attitude of many which seems to be "omg no bhopping marines r gonna be pwned!!1111" is, as far as I'm concerned, incorrect and ill-founded.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well said.
For the record, I can bhop very good. I used to be a hardcore TFC dude...
Scout Bhoping rules.
I have yet to hear of anyone jumping up and down in combat. Diving yes. Bunnyhoping no. Try to think about it realisticaly(yes I know its a game, bare with me). A marine's best shot at survival should not be hopping around. It looks lame and is totally impossible. A marine should have a better chance at survival by staying with a group, staying cool, and blasting the skulk with as much accuracy as possible. Hopping around with this dog type thing yapping at your heals should not work. That is the atmosphere and gameplay that Nemesis is talking about.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is that most FPS are very primitive in the movement/dodging department. Yes, IRL, I wouldn't really be able to dodge by jumping around. Granted. However, I would be able to dive, roll, pivot, fall flat on my stomach, move/use objects in my environment to better dodge/deflect/avoid attacks etc.
In NS, I can do none of that. The only thing that comes close to being a replacement for these IRL abilities of dodging/avoiding being hurt is, get this, jumping around. It is being removed. Now a marine will essentially be the equivalent of a turret on rails that can get over minor obstacles. So much for the immersion.
I have yet to hear of anyone jumping up and down in combat. Diving yes. Bunnyhoping no. Try to think about it realisticaly(yes I know its a game, bare with me). A marine's best shot at survival should not be hopping around. It looks lame and is totally impossible. A marine should have a better chance at survival by staying with a group, staying cool, and blasting the skulk with as much accuracy as possible. Hopping around with this dog type thing yapping at your heals should not work. That is the atmosphere and gameplay that Nemesis is talking about.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is that most FPS are very primitive in the movement/dodging department. Yes, IRL, I wouldn't really be able to dodge by jumping around. Granted. However, I would be able to dive, roll, pivot, fall flat on my stomach, move/use objects in my environment to better dodge/deflect/avoid attacks etc.
In NS, I can do none of that. The only thing that comes close to being a replacement for these IRL abilities of dodging/avoiding being hurt is, get this, jumping around. It is being removed. Now a marine will essentially be the equivalent of a turret on rails that can get over minor obstacles. So much for the immersion.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can still dodge aliens by jumping... it's just gonna take some more skill now, that's all.
yeah.. mess hall battles r0x0rz
However it does stop me from bhopping. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Pistols scripts aren't cheap.... okay pal... whatever you say....
just like bhopping isn't cheap at all... nor are bhopping scripts...
That's right, my marines are trained in gymnastics with guns.
[/disbelief]
anyway, the bhop nerf works pretty well, and you can hop like a psycho still so be happy. Comparing it to CS probably wasnt the best way to say it though.
In NS, I can do none of that. The only thing that comes close to being a replacement for these IRL abilities of dodging/avoiding being hurt is, get this, jumping around. It is being removed. Now a marine will essentially be the equivalent of a turret on rails that can get over minor obstacles. So much for the immersion.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On the other hand, the skulks cannot hide in a large drawer, locker, or in the seat of an empty cc, which they would be able to do IRL. Also, the marines aren't forced to eat or go to the toilet, and the aliens don't have to go worship and pay tribute to the hive every 15 minutes. Why don't they put some realism in this game? What about the Lerk? He flies into a wall without breaking his wings and falling to the floor? And have you ever seen someone with a jetpack flying through a vent, scraping his head at the ceiling as he goes? Look at the Onos, they shouldn't be able to climb ladders! The ladders would break under their weight! And Fades? C'mon, where are all those rockets coming from? Being generated out of thin air? They should have to run back to the hive to restock (and pay tribute). Same goes for the Gorge's babblers. And Heavy Armor guys that can crouch? In something that stiff? Light Armor guys firing an entire mag of hmg ammo without getting thrown over by the recoil? WHAT IS THIS GAME COMING TO?
in real life people don't jump in combat, but in ns, there is no dodge bottom, there is flip the table over for cover button, but there is jump, and now its being removed? One reason you don't see jumping used in combat is because they are fighting other people and not things charging at you.
about atmosphere... who here as been to the future and has seen how marines fight aliens??
these marines could be carrying featherlight gear, be on mental/physical steriods(probally safe ones too by then) that increase hand-eye coordination and allow them to jump easily, and maybe even have evolved slightly
what i liked about ns was that the team needed cooperation to get things done, but at the same time, the individual needed fragging skills
Way to be a hypocrite.
In NS, I can do none of that. The only thing that comes close to being a replacement for these IRL abilities of dodging/avoiding being hurt is, get this, jumping around. It is being removed. Now a marine will essentially be the equivalent of a turret on rails that can get over minor obstacles. So much for the immersion.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On the other hand, the skulks cannot hide in a large drawer, locker, or in the seat of an empty cc, which they would be able to do IRL. Also, the marines aren't forced to eat or go to the toilet, and the aliens don't have to go worship and pay tribute to the hive every 15 minutes. Why don't they put some realism in this game? What about the Lerk? He flies into a wall without breaking his wings and falling to the floor? And have you ever seen someone with a jetpack flying through a vent, scraping his head at the ceiling as he goes? Look at the Onos, they shouldn't be able to climb ladders! The ladders would break under their weight! And Fades? C'mon, where are all those rockets coming from? Being generated out of thin air? They should have to run back to the hive to restock (and pay tribute). Same goes for the Gorge's babblers. And Heavy Armor guys that can crouch? In something that stiff? Light Armor guys firing an entire mag of hmg ammo without getting thrown over by the recoil? WHAT IS THIS GAME COMING TO? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
OMG. What a great idea!!! The commander could build a toilet, and then the marines would have to use it every so often, we could have a bladder-o-meter, and even better we could add a coke machine and a chocolate machine, which when used would make u move faster and fire more accurately, but would fill ur bladder-o-meter up quicker!!!
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
...
Yeah, 'nuff said. Let them handle the B-hop issue. I'm <b>almost positive</b> that they won't allow for an air velocity increase so that skulks can keep bunnyhopping till they can clear a lake. Flayra isn't stupid.
Another factor-what sounds more like captain kangaroo? The guy with the lmg, or the guy who can only bite you?
Quit'cher*****'en
[edit] oh, I should post a reason, this topic has been discussed so often that those pictures don't even seem annoying [/edit]
In NS, I can do none of that. The only thing that comes close to being a replacement for these IRL abilities of dodging/avoiding being hurt is, get this, jumping around. It is being removed. Now a marine will essentially be the equivalent of a turret on rails that can get over minor obstacles. So much for the immersion.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On the other hand, the skulks cannot hide in a large drawer, locker, or in the seat of an empty cc, which they would be able to do IRL. Also, the marines aren't forced to eat or go to the toilet, and the aliens don't have to go worship and pay tribute to the hive every 15 minutes. Why don't they put some realism in this game? What about the Lerk? He flies into a wall without breaking his wings and falling to the floor? And have you ever seen someone with a jetpack flying through a vent, scraping his head at the ceiling as he goes? Look at the Onos, they shouldn't be able to climb ladders! The ladders would break under their weight! And Fades? C'mon, where are all those rockets coming from? Being generated out of thin air? They should have to run back to the hive to restock (and pay tribute). Same goes for the Gorge's babblers. And Heavy Armor guys that can crouch? In something that stiff? Light Armor guys firing an entire mag of hmg ammo without getting thrown over by the recoil? WHAT IS THIS GAME COMING TO? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think I just peed my pants laughing at that.
ahahahahah
Thank you SO much LOL!!!111!!
...
Yeah, 'nuff said. Let them handle the B-hop issue. I'm <b>almost positive</b> that they won't allow for an air velocity increase so that skulks can keep bunnyhopping till they can clear a lake. Flayra isn't stupid.
Another factor-what sounds more like captain kangaroo? The guy with the lmg, or the guy who can only bite you?
Quit'cher*****'en
[edit] oh, I should post a reason, this topic has been discussed so often that those pictures don't even seem annoying [/edit] <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
the sad part is... I actually like that idea. I mean, look at all the nubs you could get out of the way because they would be too busy using the potty and cracking (no pun) stupid jokes about the toliet instead of dropping tfs all over the map with cc's <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I have yet to hear of anyone jumping up and down in combat. Diving yes. Bunnyhoping no. Try to think about it realisticaly(yes I know its a game, bare with me). A marine's best shot at survival should not be hopping around. It looks lame and is totally impossible. A marine should have a better chance at survival by staying with a group, staying cool, and blasting the skulk with as much accuracy as possible. Hopping around with this dog type thing yapping at your heals should not work. That is the atmosphere and gameplay that Nemesis is talking about. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why is it impossible? Cuz you're out of shape?
What COMBAT has any marine every seen involving skulks? Do you bhop when fighting fades?!
And NO, the Counter-Strike system is even more unrealistic. If you want Marines to lose ability then give them fatigue.
===========
Jumping over skulks is legit, think about jumping over a dog. All you have to do is not let Marines jump as high and not let them break the speed limit, so to speak, which is the main problem with bhopping, you can bhop faster than a skulk can move if you do it right.
Set Marine jumping height so that they can still jump over skulks but all the skulk has to do is look up and bite. Course skulks will start to anticipate this, but in this way jumping may be preserved, even if useless, and both pro bhop and anti bhop whiners can be happy.
You can bhop for quite a while if you are in shape. OF COURSE it will be hard if not impossible to keep dodging a dog, but it IS possible to jump over him. That's why I believe that being able to jump over should be allowed, but have the jump height reduced or something equivalent such that skulks can easily counter it. Blatant game breaking such as going past the speed limit should of course be fixed.
ATMOSPHERE bullsh*t - yeah, real marines fight skulks
or, real marines wouldn't try to get out of the way, however ineffective,
or, real marines can run forever
I have a question. If you are so bent on atmosphere, Y NOT give a fatigue meter, to both sides? This is more reasonable than the toilet thing - y not? Y not cuz it sucks for NS that's why, this ain't a WW2 simulation. *expletive*
IF YOU ALLOW A SKULK TO GET CLOSE YOU SHOULD DIE. THAT'S THE GAME CONCEPT. THE SKULK HAS A MOUTHFUL OF TEETH, RATHER THAN KITTENS, FOR A REASON.
Saying that bunnyhopping is analogous to dodging the skulk or pulling off some neat close combat trick is utter nonsense. Where's the skulks room to pull off their "special" close combat trick in return?
Perhaps you should focus your skill in an area we have no problem with. Like aiming. Or tactics.
Bunnyhopping is an exploit, which people use perfectly legitimately, because it's a feature common to HL mods that we haven't killed off yet. Sadly, it effects gameplay in a manner which we consider unacceptable. So it is going.
Yeah, you'd think...
You know, those two aren't mutually exclusive. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
"weeee I'm a bouncing marine/gorge/whatever weeee!!"
I therefore don't care if it's removed.
Using "bhop" to gain speed = bad
using "bhop" to jump around like a loony and look like an idiot = goodish.
IF YOU ALLOW A SKULK TO GET CLOSE YOU SHOULD DIE. THAT'S THE GAME CONCEPT. THE SKULK HAS A MOUTHFUL OF TEETH, RATHER THAN KITTENS, FOR A REASON.
Saying that bunnyhopping is analogous to dodging the skulk or pulling off some neat close combat trick is utter nonsense. Where's the skulks room to pull off their "special" close combat trick in return?
Perhaps you should focus your skill in an area we have no problem with. Like aiming. Or tactics.
Bunnyhopping is an exploit, which people use perfectly legitimately, because it's a feature common to HL mods that we haven't killed off yet. Sadly, it effects gameplay in a manner which we consider unacceptable. So it is going. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you could roll, dive etc. the issue is that you would have a greater ability to dodge a skulk at close range. It would give you more options to deal with a close range encounter in other words.
Saying that if you "allow a skulk" to get close you should die is something that I consider nonsense. Ever think that maybe good skulk players might just be able to <b>force a close range</b> fight ?
<span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'>THATS THE FREAKEN POINT!!!</span>
<span style='font-size:15pt;line-height:100%'>THATS THE FREAKEN POINT!!!</span> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Note that "THATS THE FREAKEN POINT!!!" has been scaled down and this is only a dramatization of someone that equates size with value of content.
Care to elaborate on that somewhat ? My point is that close range fighting is not always avoidable for a marine... and your point is what exactly ? You believe that a marine should always lose at close range or what ? If this is the case, I disagree.
<span style='font-size:15pt;line-height:100%'>THATS THE FREAKEN POINT!!!</span> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Note that "THATS THE FREAKEN POINT!!!" has been scaled down and this is only a dramatization of someone that equates size with value of content.
Care to elaborate on that somewhat ? My point is that close range fighting is not always avoidable for a marine... and your point is what exactly ? You believe that a marine should always lose at close range or what ? If this is the case, I disagree. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Skulks loose at ranged combat, marines loose at close quarters, sometimes the skulk is unable to get close enough to win, other times the marine has no choice but to go to a place which is easy for close quarters fighting.
It's called balance. If the marine would win both on close quarters and in ranged battle, why bother playing alien, you'll just die every time.
If the marine always have the advantage of range, why bother playing alien?
The game isn't a single-player kill all the aliens and get to the boss (hive) in the end. it's two different sides with different strengths and weaknesses. Sometimes you have the advantage, other times the other team has the advantage, and if you can't live with that, you should go back to single player and god mode.
Also, i assume, that once the skulk gets his teeth sunk into the marine the outcome should be much more certain than it is now. The marine shouldn't automatically die -of course- but simply disappearing out of the skulk's FOV in a heartbeat, bouncing away backwards (fast-as-the-skulk-can-run) while reloading his lmg and opening up (accurately) or stowing it, getting his pistol out and nailing the skulk between the eyes 5 times... shoudn't be all that common.
Comparing jumping (<i>especially</i> with the invincible leg syndrome <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo--> that plagues ns at the mo) to "some kinda elite evasive movement" cos the rines are wearing "feather-lite kit" and are "wacked out on all sortsa stims" is interesting... though where's the skulk's equivalent? Do they bite the marine, then calmly let go and watch as he does a faultless full-extended-half-pike away from them across the room, wishing to the hive-gods that they were half so agile or quick-reactioned as the top-heavy squishy things? hmm... i think if you want to abstract the marine's ability to push the alien off him and dive behind the nearest table/dividing-wall/teammate then there are a hundred better ways to do it than jumping. because:
1. If it's abstracted, it should be very much out of your (the player's) hands.
2. It is already in place; with your ability to take a bite, keep functioning at <b>full</b> ability, not be missing the use of a limb, and not have the skulk's teeth still firmly entrenched (and chewing) in some part of you you'd rather keep tooth-free.
You already get no contact-friction of any kind, the skulk already glides off you like you're in a glass box (which in game terms, you are). It already takes 2 (or 3 if your comm will oblige) bites to kill you, which gives you the same survival time at point-blank (even if you don't move an inch!) as the skulk gets at a distance.
As had been mentioned earlier, I wish some kind of fix was thought up on NS's original release, if everyone had been thrown in at the deep-end with no bhopping and little evasive jumping (yes, "little" : one jump out of the way when a skulk bites you isn't so bad at all - over the benches in messhall and another back the other way after a second for e.g.) everyone would have taken it at face value. just like if there was no AWP in CS right from the start. Nobody would have clamoured for it to be included and the game would be unarguably better for it.
lol @ 2nd look at CS comment... insert obligatory flame-retardant pun here...
/ducks
<span style='font-size:15pt;line-height:100%'>THATS THE FREAKEN POINT!!!</span> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
...
Care to elaborate on that somewhat ? My point is that close range fighting is not always avoidable for a marine... and your point is what exactly ? You believe that a marine should always lose at close range or what ? If this is the case, I disagree. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Skulks loose at ranged combat, marines loose at close quarters, sometimes the skulk is unable to get close enough to win, other times the marine has no choice but to go to a place which is easy for close quarters fighting.
It's called balance. If the marine would win both on close quarters and in ranged battle, why bother playing alien, you'll just die every time.
If the marine always have the advantage of range, why bother playing alien?
The game isn't a single-player kill all the aliens and get to the boss (hive) in the end. it's two different sides with different strengths and weaknesses. Sometimes you have the advantage, other times the other team has the advantage, and if you can't live with that, you should go back to single player and god mode. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with you in spirit that the skulk should have an advantage at close range. But my point still stands that marines should not <b>always</b> lose at close range. Just as a skulk should not automatically die at long range i.e. it should have a chance to close the distance.
Clearly the developers do not want a situation where skulks win at close range continuously either. Thus the official reason for the skulk bite (given to me) was to blind the skulk just enough to give marines a better chance of putting up a fight at close range. I.e. it was done for balance...which as you rightly said is obviously important to everyone playing the game.
Nobody really likes a one-sided game (including me).
How do you know this new jump will mean the marines will "...<b>always</b> lose at close range."
I'm not saying you are right or wrong but what do you have to back up this point? <i>Speculations</i> based on your experience?
Also, i assume, that once the skulk gets his teeth sunk into the marine the outcome should be much more certain than it is now. The marine shouldn't automatically die -of course- but simply disappearing out of the skulk's FOV in a heartbeat, bouncing away backwards (fast-as-the-skulk-can-run) while reloading his lmg and opening up (accurately) or stowing it, getting his pistol out and nailing the skulk between the eyes 5 times... shoudn't be all that common.
Comparing jumping (<i>especially</i> with the invincible leg syndrome <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo--> that plagues ns at the mo) to "some kinda elite evasive movement" cos the rines are wearing "feather-lite kit" and are "wacked out on all sortsa stims" is interesting... though where's the skulk's equivalent? Do they bite the marine, then calmly let go and watch as he does a faultless full-extended-half-pike away from them across the room, wishing to the hive-gods that they were half so agile or quick-reactioned as the top-heavy squishy things? hmm... i think if you want to abstract the marine's ability to push the alien off him and dive behind the nearest table/dividing-wall/teammate then there are a hundred better ways to do it than jumping. because:
1. If it's abstracted, it should be very much out of your (the player's) hands.
2. It is already in place; with your ability to take a bite, keep functioning at <b>full</b> ability, not be missing the use of a limb, and not have the skulk's teeth still firmly entrenched (and chewing) in some part of you you'd rather keep tooth-free.
You already get no contact-friction of any kind, the skulk already glides off you like you're in a glass box (which in game terms, you are). It already takes 2 (or 3 if your comm will oblige) bites to kill you, which gives you the same survival time at point-blank (even if you don't move an inch!) as the skulk gets at a distance.
As had been mentioned earlier, I wish some kind of fix was thought up on NS's original release, if everyone had been thrown in at the deep-end with no bhopping and little evasive jumping (yes, "little" : one jump out of the way when a skulk bites you isn't so bad at all - over the benches in messhall and another back the other way after a second for e.g.) everyone would have taken it at face value. just like if there was no AWP in CS right from the start. Nobody would have clamoured for it to be included and the game would be unarguably better for it.
lol @ 2nd look at CS comment... insert obligatory flame-retardant pun here...
/ducks <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for the thoughtful reply.
I agree with you on one key point: Bunny-hopping around while a skulk is nipping at your heels does seem extremely ridiculous. I am not, <b>repeat not</b> a pro-bunny hopper. I do however support selective jumps to avoid skulk rushes. This of course raises the issue of how much jumping is too much jumping ? Everyone is going to have a different opinion here.
As for the idea of jumping representing some sort of alternate evasion... I find this works fairly well in terms of NS immersion. When it comes to realism, let's face facts: NS is hardly realistic in a number of ways. This is fine because gameplay comes first for most people.
You are quite right that there currently exists no alternative for a skulk... there is no way for a skulk to latch on, or trip, or disarm or any other number of plausible realistic attacks. So pretty much what we're left with is an abstraction for realistic fighting in any case. I don't see selective jumping as out of place at all.
As for advantages... skulks should win more close-range encounters...however they should not win all of them. Again this is evidenced by the fact that skulk-bites temporarily blind the skulk. Keep in mind also that there is no one-hit one-kill firearm available to marines either...so the intention here is clearly to allow skulks some chance to close the distance.
I think all in all we probably have pretty much the same point of view for the most part.