a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
edited July 2003
<!--QuoteBegin--My Personal Insanity+Jul 3 2003, 04:48 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (My Personal Insanity @ Jul 3 2003, 04:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->D'oh, I didn't read the whole thread before posting! <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It wouldn't have mattered, as I didn't make any previous posts in this thread.
I was saying that I was just thinking of that when I read your post.
the only way i see this happenin' is a all out war where its all against all heh, or maybe like 4 teams on a massive map with like 50-60 people on 1 server and there complete 'Nam hell everywhere where everyone is going pyscho over the hives or resources <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Different strains of the bacterium? Unless I misunderstood something about the general background in the manual, that's the whole point: in AvM, the bacterium is mistaking the nanotech for a competing biology...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is one reason that i see reason in... But then the aliens couldn't build their hives at the same locations of the map b/c it's not their bacterium that have made the hive location to wath it is...<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
I think m vs m and a vs a is already implemented if you read the FAQ we just need maps...
Can you play marines vs. marines or aliens vs. aliens? The first release doesn't have these scenarios, but the game is designed to support it. This will be supported in the near future after the first release.
NS wasn't designed for MvM and AvA. Can you imagine the balance problems? CAN YOU!?!?! ( Not to mention reworking maps to allow 6 hives but no marine stuff.) Ack. No way
HAMBoneProbably the best CommanderJoin Date: 2003-04-02Member: 15139Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
edited July 2003
Yeah, mvm is something i'd LOVE to see.. it'd be sweet. AFAIK the game already supports it but there are no maps(does it support player colors and stuff though? I was messing around with the Hammer editor one time and it didn't seem to me that MvM was available) But I'd LOVE to make a MvM map if its available currently. I'm actually a little worried that MvM might be TOO fun, to the point where people actually prefer it to MvA
Alien Vs. Alien, <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> Karaa Vs. MBS7.7 (Modifided Bacteria Stream), heck it can be made by your evil/counter marines who are trying to use karaa bacteria as a weapon.....
Balance problems? I don't see how those are possible. Anything you change to the first marines happens to the second marines. They are equal in every which way except the players playing them. Same with aliens.
Whys everyone so hateful of Aliens fighting other Aliens? <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> vs <!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif'><!--endemo--> whats not to love!
ok, it would need balancing and stuff, but the levels would make a change with overlapping areas etc as mentioned.
As for reasons wy they would fight? heck even animals of the same race on our planet use bizarre methods of civil war - take ants. I saw in one documentary about one strain of ant that declares war on another colony and uses a pheromone that makes the other ants view each other as hostile and kill each other.
There was also this wierd bug thing that went into an ant hive. and released a drug like substance which got the ants addicted to it, so much that they offered it their young to feed it in return for this trippy stuff.
Does anyone else see the major problem with AvA? The skulks! What happens when the two little critters want to fight eachother..? They use their teeth, so whoever gets in the first bite, wins! Oh joy! I can see it now! How much fun would that be?! ...not much. The second problem would be parasites...how could the parasite work on other kharaa when the manual states <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The darts [parasites] release a stain of bacteria, that connects to the bacterium.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Seems to me that the parasites wouldn't attach itself on to anything seeing as how they are both bacteria...and the same strand of bacteria as well.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Seems to me that the parasites wouldn't attach itself on to anything seeing as how they are both bacteria...and the same strand of bacteria as well. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bacteria can attach to eachother and frequently do.
The bacteria on your teeth for example are stuck together by polysaccharides (created by eachother). It isn't actually very uncommon to encounter bacteria living together on the same surface either.
I don't think MvM would be all that exciting guys. At least not for me because I'm used to games that allow for more tactical options.
No weapon recoil, no sprinting, no grenades, no hit-location, no 'stunts' like rolling etc ... all standard features in most human vs human scenarios. Without those features killing marines would become boring rather quickly IMO.
The reason AvM works for me (even without those features) is because playing against creatures with varying abilities is the draw; and creates the excitement.
AvA has the potential to be a bit more interesting. However I'd still think twice before spending the necessary effort to make this work.
Hijacking this thread somewhat, why not focus more on alternate gameplay modes...like escape scenarios etc ?
Balance problems... skulks and fades and oni instagibbing each other... certain aspects of the game nullified (especially alien)... the marine game would be extremely boring as a marine anyway it's not CS or Quake or anything (point, click) and since these are marines you just have to track slower bleh... what else?
<!--QuoteBegin--sender+Jul 4 2003, 12:17 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (sender @ Jul 4 2003, 12:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ****, MvM would be the best ever. If any of you have played tribes, you might know how much fun playing against another equal team can be. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I've played tribes 2. Sure its alot of fun...but look at the variety in tactics you get in tribes games compared to what you'd get in a MvM game in NS.
In NS there are too few weapons (and even those weapons don't have much of a learning curve to use properly), limited movement options and a host of other factors that would make Marine vs Marine too boring IMO.
Keep in mind with having to depend on a Comm for dishing out equipment, what usually happens (at least in my experience) is that you spend most of the game with basic equipment.
To sacrifice the FPS for the RTS would be a mistake.
I can't wait for MvM and AvA. I want to play them more than I want to play 1.1 (I'm *still* calling it that <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->)
The way I see it, AvA would be more deathmatch-oriented, and MvM would be more strategy-oriented, and either of those is a Good Thing <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--CommunistWithAGun+Jul 3 2003, 04:22 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Jul 3 2003, 04:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> NS wasn't designed for MvM and AvA. Can you imagine the balance problems? CAN YOU!?!?! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Now maybe I think a bit too logically, or I am too used to interpeting things for what they are (a flaw that I share with all productive and sane human beings), but wouldn't having identical teams make balance come down to just mapping? Alien Vs. Alien might be a little harder in that aspect, but as things are there is enough flexibility to make maps with as many as a dozen hive locations or as few as 1 (2 for A vs. A). Yes I can imagine the balance problems, they will will be minimal/non-existant. That is one of the single <b>Biggest</b> motivations for such game/map types. And although I admit that a M vs. M game wouldn't be more interesting then A Vs. M, Rines fighting each other would be substantially more [tactically] stimulating then the current game play. It would also make a more interesting and balanced gameplay experience. <!--QuoteBegin--JusticeBlade+Jul 3 2003, 07:28 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (JusticeBlade @ Jul 3 2003, 07:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Alien Vs. Alien, <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> Karaa Vs. MBS7.7 (Modifided Bacteria Stream), heck it can be made by your evil/counter marines who are trying to use karaa bacteria as a weapon.....<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I like this idea as far as story goes, fight fire with fire (and make a Alien versus alien game type).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It would also make a more interesting and balanced gameplay experience. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well that remains to be seen really. Still, of course it is going to be balanced, they are the same size!
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
<!--QuoteBegin--Infected Marine+Jul 4 2003, 02:51 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Infected Marine @ Jul 4 2003, 02:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Now maybe I think a bit too logically, or I am too used to interpeting things for what they are (a flaw that I share with all productive and sane human beings), but wouldn't having identical teams make balance come down to just mapping? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The overall game would be balanced, but the parts wouldn't. For example, the electricity upgrade would be nearly useless against marines.
<!--QuoteBegin--coil+Jul 3 2003, 06:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (coil @ Jul 3 2003, 06:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What I eagerly look forward to:
MvM: two commanders each commanding a team of real players against one another.
AvA: 5-hive maps (maybe; maybe only 4) with no level-over-level restrictions. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> What he said.
<!--QuoteBegin--a civilian+Jul 4 2003, 02:05 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (a civilian @ Jul 4 2003, 02:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The overall game would be balanced, but the parts wouldn't. For example, the electricity upgrade would be nearly useless against marines. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree, and that would be perfect, because in 2.0, different parts aren't balanced, but the teams are overall well blanced.
Well, I don't think it should be a res based game if its the same race fighting against each other, you should both be able to get what ever upgrade you like.... a res based game for race vs race would be strange..
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
edited July 2003
<!--QuoteBegin--Infected Marine+Jul 4 2003, 04:05 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Infected Marine @ Jul 4 2003, 04:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I agree, and that would be perfect, because in 2.0, different parts aren't balanced, but the teams are overall well blanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Did you realize what I said? An entire tech would be completely useless. It is not good for a game to have a completely useless tech.
Okies, first up - problems from a feel perspective. If your only problem with MvM or AvA is that it wouldnt fit with the manual - then you have absolutely nothing to worry about. This is sci-fi - you CAN find a decent and working explaination for just about EVERY scenario, especially with the quality inventive writing talent ns very obviously has (see the manual or 6 days in Sanjii if you dont believe me).
Second of all, I notice a disturbing trend here to associate MvM as a deathmatch affair. On the contrary - MvM would be the most intense strategic battle in ANY hl mod EVER. So what if you dont have recoil - where is it written that in any human vs human game recoil is a prereq for fun?
Third - you cant use electrified tf cause it will be useless. BIG DEAL. So dont research it then. You cannot argue balance problems when two identical teams face each other.
Finally, adding these extra scenarios will, if nothing else, add depth to ns. There can be no logical arguement against that statement. More tactics, more variety - its depth fellas, and depth means it will hold our attentions for a lot longer
WORD OF WARNING
On the side of caution - adding depth is not always a good thing. Think back to the paratrooper rounds in DoD - absolute shambles. Failing to realise that most of its player base was from cs players tired of waiting 3 mins after dying, the dod team implemented cs rounds into dod to try and increase the depth of the game. Not smart. The devs need to be really sure that MvM and AvA is what the players really want - and despite all the negativity here, I'm sure it is. And even if it isnt, at least you have the option of not running MvM and AvA maps on ur servers.
Conclusion - the addition of MvM and AvA can only be a win-win whether you like em or not. The addition brings depth (and even if you dont like em, at least they will bring more ppl to ns and KEEP them there thus prolonging the life of the game you love, and you can simply play on the NO MVM AVA servers), and what looks like being a hell of a lot of fun.
I for one look forward to attempting to chomp a lerk out of the sky, insane cerility skulk wars, feeding frenzy multiple skulk ambush of onos, fades trying to swipe lerks from the sky, huge 8v8 ha hmg wars, and the creamy goodness of placing a shottie firmly up the anus of a ha and pulling the trigger <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I do see a balance problem. How do you distinguish the two teams and their structures? You use different colors, of course, and to make them noticeably different (so it doesn't take 2 seconds to figure out which team the person is on), you make one team have brighter colors than the other team. This means that they are easier to see, and ambushing is more difficult. I don't know how much of a difference this would make, but it could be enough that you fire a tenth of a second earlier and end up killing your enemy (in MvM). Perhaps maps could have bright ares and dark areas, so the bright team blends in with bright rooms and the dark team blends in with darker rooms.
I think it will be funny if AvA is ever implemented. Both teams rush to the other team's hive and bite it to death, then both teams die off in about 2 minutes if there is ping of death, or a very weird version of CS if there isn't. Imagine that, a game of NS where death is final, no spawning for both teams 2 minutes into the game. It probably wouldn't happen this way, but I think it would be funny to see.
Comments
It wouldn't have mattered, as I didn't make any previous posts in this thread.
I was saying that I was just thinking of that when I read your post.
misunderstood something about the general
background in the manual, that's the whole point:
in AvM, the bacterium is mistaking the nanotech for a
competing biology...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is one reason that i see reason in...
But then the aliens couldn't build their hives at the same locations of the map b/c it's not their bacterium that have made the hive location to wath it is...<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Can you play marines vs. marines or aliens vs. aliens?
The first release doesn't have these scenarios, but the game is designed to support it. This will be supported in the near future after the first release.
<!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> vs <!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif'><!--endemo--> whats not to love!
ok, it would need balancing and stuff, but the levels would make a change with overlapping areas etc as mentioned.
As for reasons wy they would fight? heck even animals of the same race on our planet use bizarre methods of civil war - take ants. I saw in one documentary about one strain of ant that declares war on another colony and uses a pheromone that makes the other ants view each other as hostile and kill each other.
There was also this wierd bug thing that went into an ant hive. and released a drug like substance which got the ants addicted to it, so much that they offered it their young to feed it in return for this trippy stuff.
<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Bacteria can attach to eachother and frequently do.
The bacteria on your teeth for example are stuck together by polysaccharides (created by eachother). It isn't actually very uncommon to encounter bacteria living together on the same surface either.
No weapon recoil, no sprinting, no grenades, no hit-location, no 'stunts' like rolling etc ... all standard features in most human vs human scenarios. Without those features killing marines would become boring rather quickly IMO.
The reason AvM works for me (even without those features) is because playing against creatures with varying abilities is the draw; and creates the excitement.
AvA has the potential to be a bit more interesting. However I'd still think twice before spending the necessary effort to make this work.
Hijacking this thread somewhat, why not focus more on alternate gameplay modes...like escape scenarios etc ?
This is judging from the current build anyway.
And Marine vs Marine would finally be a 'True' FPS/RTS game with both sides having the true rts part.
I've played tribes 2. Sure its alot of fun...but look at the variety in tactics you get in tribes games compared to what you'd get in a MvM game in NS.
In NS there are too few weapons (and even those weapons don't have much of a learning curve to use properly), limited movement options and a host of other factors that would make Marine vs Marine too boring IMO.
Keep in mind with having to depend on a Comm for dishing out equipment, what usually happens (at least in my experience) is that you spend most of the game with basic equipment.
To sacrifice the FPS for the RTS would be a mistake.
The way I see it, AvA would be more deathmatch-oriented, and MvM would be more strategy-oriented, and either of those is a Good Thing <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Now maybe I think a bit too logically, or I am too used to interpeting things for what they are (a flaw that I share with all productive and sane human beings), but wouldn't having identical teams make balance come down to just mapping? Alien Vs. Alien might be a little harder in that aspect, but as things are there is enough flexibility to make maps with as many as a dozen hive locations or as few as 1 (2 for A vs. A). Yes I can imagine the balance problems, they will will be minimal/non-existant. That is one of the single <b>Biggest</b> motivations for such game/map types. And although I admit that a M vs. M game wouldn't be more interesting then A Vs. M, Rines fighting each other would be substantially more [tactically] stimulating then the current game play. It would also make a more interesting and balanced gameplay experience.
<!--QuoteBegin--JusticeBlade+Jul 3 2003, 07:28 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (JusticeBlade @ Jul 3 2003, 07:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Alien Vs. Alien, <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> Karaa Vs. MBS7.7 (Modifided Bacteria Stream), heck it can be made by your evil/counter marines who are trying to use karaa bacteria as a weapon.....<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like this idea as far as story goes, fight fire with fire (and make a Alien versus alien game type).
Well that remains to be seen really. Still, of course it is going to be balanced, they are the same size!
The overall game would be balanced, but the parts wouldn't. For example, the electricity upgrade would be nearly useless against marines.
MvM: two commanders each commanding a team of real players against one another.
AvA: 5-hive maps (maybe; maybe only 4) with no level-over-level restrictions. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
What he said.
I agree, and that would be perfect, because in 2.0, different parts aren't balanced, but the teams are overall well blanced.
Did you realize what I said? An entire tech would be completely useless. It is not good for a game to have a completely useless tech.
Second of all, I notice a disturbing trend here to associate MvM as a deathmatch affair. On the contrary - MvM would be the most intense strategic battle in ANY hl mod EVER. So what if you dont have recoil - where is it written that in any human vs human game recoil is a prereq for fun?
Third - you cant use electrified tf cause it will be useless. BIG DEAL. So dont research it then. You cannot argue balance problems when two identical teams face each other.
Finally, adding these extra scenarios will, if nothing else, add depth to ns. There can be no logical arguement against that statement. More tactics, more variety - its depth fellas, and depth means it will hold our attentions for a lot longer
WORD OF WARNING
On the side of caution - adding depth is not always a good thing. Think back to the paratrooper rounds in DoD - absolute shambles. Failing to realise that most of its player base was from cs players tired of waiting 3 mins after dying, the dod team implemented cs rounds into dod to try and increase the depth of the game. Not smart. The devs need to be really sure that MvM and AvA is what the players really want - and despite all the negativity here, I'm sure it is. And even if it isnt, at least you have the option of not running MvM and AvA maps on ur servers.
Conclusion - the addition of MvM and AvA can only be a win-win whether you like em or not. The addition brings depth (and even if you dont like em, at least they will bring more ppl to ns and KEEP them there thus prolonging the life of the game you love, and you can simply play on the NO MVM AVA servers), and what looks like being a hell of a lot of fun.
I for one look forward to attempting to chomp a lerk out of the sky, insane cerility skulk wars, feeding frenzy multiple skulk ambush of onos, fades trying to swipe lerks from the sky, huge 8v8 ha hmg wars, and the creamy goodness of placing a shottie firmly up the anus of a ha and pulling the trigger <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I think it will be funny if AvA is ever implemented. Both teams rush to the other team's hive and bite it to death, then both teams die off in about 2 minutes if there is ping of death, or a very weird version of CS if there isn't. Imagine that, a game of NS where death is final, no spawning for both teams 2 minutes into the game. It probably wouldn't happen this way, but I think it would be funny to see.