<!--QuoteBegin--meatball+Jul 3 2003, 12:39 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (meatball @ Jul 3 2003, 12:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> But TSA training battles would fitt well inte to the story, that is atleast wath i think
I would like to see a oni vs lerk fight .... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Then play tournament mode, Friendly Fire is on and you can kill each other! I always play tourny mode when I make my own server, so I can teach the RC bots whos in charge!
"Build the Rez tower, BUILD IT!, I SIAD freaking BUILD IT!" (gets out of comm chair, takes out hand gun, BANG, 1 shot to the back of the head) "Anyone else want to play Hero!?"
of course, it would be silly to see 2 exactly the same species killing each other, the aliens gta be a little different from each other... thats my idea
I like the idea, having TSA mabye have rival groups? and i can definetly like to see aliens racing for hives, very intresting,
i also heard a few people saying it wouldnt Be NS and iagree with MvM but Natural Selection is when nature "selects" a species to evolve to better benefit that species, err err i think AvA would be perfect, i could unserstand MvM would much be almost like CS or Fa or DoD but i really like the AvA idea, i mean some stories only cover MvA and you dont hear about aliens competing for superiority, im sure theres diffrent groups of aliens, and it would be like ants, when they see another ant in thier "hive" or territory they attack and kill it, why not have 2 alien species competing for superiority <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Marine01's "win-win" arguement is overly simplistic. There is a big downside.
Development resources are finite. Flayra only has so much time. The mappers only have so much time.
So, in the short-to-medium term, any work done on same-race battles takes away from the core AvM game.
I don't know about you, but I want the core game to keep progressing. More polish, more depth, more tweaking, better HUDs, better waypoints, more maps...
When the AvM core is *really* mature, then let's consider these diversions. And I don't know about you, but I forsee it being quite a while before AvM is as good as it can be. Maybe never.
Heck, I'd want NS ported to HL2 before doing these extra modes!
<!--QuoteBegin--a civilian+Jul 4 2003, 04:00 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (a civilian @ Jul 4 2003, 04:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Did you realize what I said? An entire tech would be completely useless. It is not good for a game to have a completely useless tech. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Maybe. As a rine I rarely shoot RTs to death, wither I knife it, or cover a team mate as they knife it. I believe (but don't quote me on this) that in 2.0 alien towers have less health, making shooting them more viable, but 2.0 rine towers are just as tough if not tougher. I would prefer to knife them when ever possible. And if I waste my ammo shooting an electric tower then I hope my enemy rines can ambush me with my clip empty.
<!--QuoteBegin--a civilian+Jul 4 2003, 02:05 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (a civilian @ Jul 4 2003, 02:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The overall game would be balanced, but the parts wouldn't. For example, the electricity upgrade would be nearly useless against marines. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I think the main problem is that you'd have to do a lot of playtesting to shake out the uber-strategies (like the venerable JP/HMG rush). And every time you tweaked something to nerf a MvA uber-strategy, you'd have to make sure that didn't open up a new AvA or MvM uber-strategy.
IMO, the risk is not one side having an unfair advantage. The risk is one strategy becoming so dominant that the game is reduced to a rush to see which side can implement that strategy quickest.
<!--QuoteBegin--Marine01+Jul 4 2003, 05:43 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Marine01 @ Jul 4 2003, 05:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Okies, first up - problems from a feel perspective. If your only problem with MvM or AvA is that it wouldnt fit with the manual - then you have absolutely nothing to worry about. This is sci-fi - you CAN find a decent and working explaination for just about EVERY scenario, especially with the quality inventive writing talent ns very obviously has (see the manual or 6 days in Sanjii if you dont believe me).
Second of all, I notice a disturbing trend here to associate MvM as a deathmatch affair. On the contrary - MvM would be the most intense strategic battle in ANY hl mod EVER. So what if you dont have recoil - where is it written that in any human vs human game recoil is a prereq for fun?
Third - you cant use electrified tf cause it will be useless. BIG DEAL. So dont research it then. You cannot argue balance problems when two identical teams face each other.
Finally, adding these extra scenarios will, if nothing else, add depth to ns. There can be no logical arguement against that statement. More tactics, more variety - its depth fellas, and depth means it will hold our attentions for a lot longer
WORD OF WARNING
On the side of caution - adding depth is not always a good thing. Think back to the paratrooper rounds in DoD - absolute shambles. Failing to realise that most of its player base was from cs players tired of waiting 3 mins after dying, the dod team implemented cs rounds into dod to try and increase the depth of the game. Not smart. The devs need to be really sure that MvM and AvA is what the players really want - and despite all the negativity here, I'm sure it is. And even if it isnt, at least you have the option of not running MvM and AvA maps on ur servers.
Conclusion - the addition of MvM and AvA can only be a win-win whether you like em or not. The addition brings depth (and even if you dont like em, at least they will bring more ppl to ns and KEEP them there thus prolonging the life of the game you love, and you can simply play on the NO MVM AVA servers), and what looks like being a hell of a lot of fun.
I for one look forward to attempting to chomp a lerk out of the sky, insane cerility skulk wars, feeding frenzy multiple skulk ambush of onos, fades trying to swipe lerks from the sky, huge 8v8 ha hmg wars, and the creamy goodness of placing a shottie firmly up the anus of a ha and pulling the trigger <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> To address your points:
i) Yes you can find a story/explanation for just about anything in sci-fi. The question is, _should_ you ? In this case I don't think so. Think aliens 3 and Highlander 2. Movies that should never have been made.
ii) I don't really think MvM would be deathmatch per se - just boring. It's not just about recoil, it is about a whole host of factors that are pretty much "standard" in most games that are absent in NS. See my previous posts for a description of these factors. My point is that for me, in a human vs human scenario the bar has been raised. I expect certain things to keep my interest. Fun is always subjective of course...what is fun for you may not be fun for me etc. I do feel however, that the atmosphere just isn't there in a MvM game.
iii) The big deal about electrified tf is that it eliminates yet another strategic option from the game. Making games that much more predictable.
iv) While they may add depth to a degree, why not add depth to the MvA game by exploring different scenarios first ?
Personally I liked the paratrooper cs-style round based play in DoD.
As for your last comment, keep in mind that you're dependant on a Comm for equipment. In a MvM game I submit that alot of the time you'll be running around with good ol pistol/lmg. Fun ? I think not.
** some extra thoughts **
Don't you think that the stock marine is somewhat under-equipped to take on human opposition ? No grenade for room/ vent clearing. And while a knife may work well against organic/living alien structures... seeing a marine knife a comm-chair to death would be just silly IMO.
Then you have other issues. Marines can't move like aliens right...so then how do you deal with launcher spam ? I suppose you could argue that both teams can have them...sure... but if an uber-weapon comes along then thats probably what'll be used the most...boring. I guess my point here is that while you can have balance in the sense that one team mirrors another, that does not automatically imply that an _interesting_ game will follow.
Okay, I personally would like to see AvA and MvM eventually - but I also would rather the NS teams focussed their efforts elsewhere.
And it is possible that AvA and MvM wont be as interesting as AvM - but at least it will be different, and I'm sure at least SOME people will like it. Lets give em the option.
If people dont like it - servers that dont have them in their map rotation will appear.
If people love it then servers will appear that have ONLY AvA and MvM.
To add on to Moon's marathon post of common sense about why MvM or AvA wouldn't work is...webbing! How would web work in AvA? You'd need seperate colors thats for sure, and I also think that it would just be stupid for a skulk or lerk to be running really slow because it got webbed (they have teeth and claws I mean, come on! Can't they just bite through?)
i) Yes you can find a story/explanation for just about anything in sci-fi. The question is, _should_ you ? In this case I don't think so. Think aliens 3 and Highlander 2. Movies that should never have been made.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well yes actually, you can and if the idea has merit then it can be. It is also relatively straightforward.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->ii) I don't really think MvM would be deathmatch per se - just boring. It's not just about recoil, it is about a whole host of factors that are pretty much "standard" in most games that are absent in NS. See my previous posts for a description of these factors. My point is that for me, in a human vs human scenario the bar has been raised. I expect certain things to keep my interest. Fun is always subjective of course...what is fun for you may not be fun for me etc. I do feel however, that the atmosphere just isn't there in a MvM game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unless you have played it, this is largely an irrelevant comment.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->iii) The big deal about electrified tf is that it eliminates yet another strategic option from the game. Making games that much more predictable.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Electrified buildings are clearly meant to protect certain points, on the other hand using these is now changed. You will have to use them more intelligently (such as placing right beside an entranceway) in order to be effective. Their use changes, though elecrified RT's are probably useless.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->iv) While they may add depth to a degree, why not add depth to the MvA game by exploring different scenarios first ?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you need too? I like the game because it's an RTS/FPS hybrid. Anything that removes the RTS part isn't worth it. Adding a new MvM (I can't see AvA working, melee attacks are too sloppy) could work and it is really the commander vs commander that intrests me.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Personally I liked the paratrooper cs-style round based play in DoD.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thankfully, nobody else did and it was removed.
Thank god, the only good thing the DoD team did from 3.1>1.0.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As for your last comment, keep in mind that you're dependant on a Comm for equipment. In a MvM game I submit that alot of the time you'll be running around with good ol pistol/lmg. Fun ? I think not.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Any argument as to why? I think not.
How exactly is this ANY different to a Marine vs Alien game?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Don't you think that the stock marine is somewhat under-equipped to take on human opposition ? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ummm if a person has a gun are they equipped enough to kill YOU? I think so.
This is a ridiculous argument. By what you're saying you might as well argue the aliens are badly equipped as well for the same reasons!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And while a knife may work well against organic/living alien structures... seeing a marine knife a comm-chair to death would be just silly IMO. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And this is any more stupid than an alien biting a marine structure to death?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Then you have other issues. Marines can't move like aliens right...so then how do you deal with launcher spam ? I suppose you could argue that both teams can have them...sure... but if an uber-weapon comes along then thats probably what'll be used the most...boring. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, this argument is silly. Marines have Jetpacks which increase their movement by a lot. Grenade spam can hence be dealt with in that manner. Grenades are also a poor weapon even on large objects. Otherwise they would mince fades and onos, which they don't.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I guess my point here is that while you can have balance in the sense that one team mirrors another, that does not automatically imply that an _interesting_ game will follow.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i just spent the last few mins making a marine vs marine map, its only 2 square rooms, one for the rr and one for both teams. It !!!!!ALMOST!!!!! worked, hl freezes when u join a team though. If anybody wants to try it pm me and ill email u the bsp, or if u want the .map/.rmf
wow i didnt even realise that this is an intended feature of future ns, and i must say after thinking about it for a minute it seems awesome, alien vs alien, oh man, the possiblities blow my mind tbh.
<!--QuoteBegin--N1ght+Jul 6 2003, 12:19 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (N1ght @ Jul 6 2003, 12:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> wow i didnt even realise that this is an intended feature of future ns, and i must say after thinking about it for a minute it seems awesome, alien vs alien, oh man, the possiblities blow my mind tbh. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Personally, I think they would do better making a new 3rd side (perhaps even a hybrid or similar) that combines the marine commander with SOME alien flexibility.
I tend to agree that general TSAvsTSA or AlienVsAlien would be rather uninteresting after a while.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->To address your points: i) Yes you can find a story/explanation for just about anything in sci-fi. The question is, _should_ you ? In this case I don't think so. Think aliens 3 and Highlander 2. Movies that should never have been made.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well yes actually, you can and if the idea has merit then it can be. It is also relatively straightforward. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The key here is as you put it "if the idea has merit". People are going to differ in their determination of whether the idea of MvM/ AvA has merit. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->ii) I don't really think MvM would be deathmatch per se - just boring. It's not just about recoil, it is about a whole host of factors that are pretty much "standard" in most games that are absent in NS... I do feel however, that the atmosphere just isn't there in a MvM game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unless you have played it, this is largely an irrelevant comment. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I see, so the years of experience that I have playing games ranging from "DukeNukem 3d" to "Operation Flashpoint" in terms of realism, and the fact that I have played alot of NS (meaning I understand what it is like to be in a FPS/RTS environment) basically leaves me with no insight into what _I_ perceive as fun or what will/won't work for at least some gamers out there. Good to know !
I mean yes, I may not know exactly how things will play out, but I feel I have a rather good idea. I don't need to experience what it is like to be hit by a large hammer in order to know that it won't feel good. The reason is that I have experienced pain on other levels/under different circumstances. In other words I have accumulated enough knowledge to form an intelligent pseudo-experience in my brain.
Are you seriously telling me that there is no difference in atmosphere between MvA and MvM ? <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->iv) While they may add depth to a degree, why not add depth to the MvA game by exploring different scenarios first ?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you need too? I like the game because it's an RTS/FPS hybrid. Anything that removes the RTS part isn't worth it. Adding a new MvM (I can't see AvA working, melee attacks are too sloppy) could work and it is really the commander vs commander that intrests me. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like the game because it is RTS/FPS hybrid that pits two _different_ teams against one another. I could argue that anything that removes the _different_ part isn't worth it. Interestingly enough, AvA would probably be more appealing than MvM to me, because of the need for a stronger set of FPS skills. Btw...don't knock AvA...you haven't played it <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Commander vs Commander has some interest for me, but I wouldn't sacrifice having a poor FPS experience as a result. I have this image of two commanders med-spamming to the tune/beat of "dueling banjo's"... priceless ! <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As for your last comment, keep in mind that you're dependant on a Comm for equipment. In a MvM game I submit that alot of the time you'll be running around with good ol pistol/lmg. Fun ? I think not.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Any argument as to why? I think not.
How exactly is this ANY different to a Marine vs Alien game? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, I have an argument as to why it wouldn't be fun. It is not one that lends itself to be briefly explained ... but here goes. In NS - in sofar as playing a marine goes - the main draw is the excitement/tension created by knowing that there are scary creatures out for your blood. This causes me to overlook the fact that I am not rewarded for precise aiming (headshots) and that my movement options are limited and that I'm using somewhat uninteresting weapons. It is primarily a question of <b>atmosphere</b> that makes it fun as far as _I_ am concerned. That is why it is different. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Don't you think that the stock marine is somewhat under-equipped to take on human opposition ? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ummm if a person has a gun are they equipped enough to kill YOU? I think so.
This is a ridiculous argument. By what you're saying you might as well argue the aliens are badly equipped as well for the same reasons! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Excuse me, but I said _under-equipped_, meaning that they are not outfitted with necessarily the most _efficient_ means of killing in a variety of situations. Obviously a gun can kill, that's not the point. If you can't see that fighting various races would determine - to a degree - your choice of weapons then I give up. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No grenade for room/ vent clearing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Odd, I thought Marines had a grenade launcher. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Odd, I thought most modern armies consider hand-grenades as somewhat useful little devices that most soldiers should have on them as standard. Oh... I know.. you mean that Comm just magically dishes out grenade launchers from the get-go...ah... I see. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And while a knife may work well against organic/living alien structures... seeing a marine knife a comm-chair to death would be just silly IMO. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And this is any more stupid than an alien biting a marine structure to death? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In terms of sci-fi atmosphere yes. I find it easier to believe a creature with enormous jaw/crushing power could take out a marine structure than G.I. Joe with a standard issue combat-knife. Remember, in sci-fi we can explain everything straightforwardly <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Then you have other issues. Marines can't move like aliens right...so then how do you deal with launcher spam ? I suppose you could argue that both teams can have them...sure... but if an uber-weapon comes along then thats probably what'll be used the most...boring. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, this argument is silly. Marines have Jetpacks which increase their movement by a lot. Grenade spam can hence be dealt with in that manner. Grenades are also a poor weapon even on large objects. Otherwise they would mince fades and onos, which they don't <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, you seem to assume that commanders just love dishing out equipment for their guys to use. I'm sure they'd have those jetpacks ready as soon as the first grenade touches down. As for the poor HA guys ? Geez, guess its tough luck. Fades can move like the bejesus....Onos are the equivalent of an Abrams battle-tank i.e. they don't need to move, they just take that grenade and giggle because it tickles. And chances are the Fade/Onos has a nice little defense chamber/healing area to fall back to, which helps offset spam damage.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I guess my point here is that while you can have balance in the sense that one team mirrors another, that does not automatically imply that an _interesting_ game will follow.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is a point you have failed to make. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Damn, you're a tough audience ! So if we make a game where both sides have starting access to a "nuke-the-other team/ win automatically" button and the winner is decided within seconds...thats interesting right ? The teams are mirror-balanced after all.
<!--QuoteBegin--Crisqo+Jul 5 2003, 11:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Crisqo @ Jul 5 2003, 11:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> To add on to Moon's marathon post of common sense about why MvM or AvA wouldn't work is...webbing! How would web work in AvA? You'd need seperate colors thats for sure, and I also think that it would just be stupid for a skulk or lerk to be running really slow because it got webbed (they have teeth and claws I mean, come on! Can't they just bite through?) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree, good point. And if they were allowed to bite through webbing (which would make sense) it would seem that webbing no longer has much use.
Lets take a look at the MvM/ AvA from a 30 000 ft overview. Marine and alien teams are balanced/tuned <b>against each other</b>. This means that certain abilities make sense mostly/only in the context of Marine vs Aliens. Also, keep in mind that damage from weapons/rate-of-fire/movement etc. are balanced from a Marine vs Alien point of view. How many bites will it take one skulk to kill another was not the initial factor that decided how much damage a skulk bite will do. I submit that alot of things would need to be reconfigured for a AvA / MvM game in order to have a chance of making things fun.
While it is true that AvA and MvM will be balanced in the sense that they are "mirror-balanced", this does not imply that the game will be interesting, neither does it imply that all weapons/abilities continue to make sense. And with losing weapons/abilities that no longer make sense you are starting to narrow down the options for tactics. This in turn tends to make for a more predictable game which in turn makes for a more boring game.
In a galaxy far, far away etc. where both teams have grenade-launchers and med-spam....
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See how Princess LayLow, LukeOut and OnlyOne-Can-o-pee take on the evil empire of Spam. See OnlyOne battle Bath-Invader in the ultimate showdown of launcher spam. See LukeOut start training in the ways of the 'jooDie' and receive his first light-nade-launcher.
coilAmateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance.Join Date: 2002-04-12Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
Play nice, guys.
The argument that "mirror balance" is not necessarily fun is perfectly balanced; many weapons/abilities are specifically designed to counter the opposing team. Look at defensive structures - OCs would have a hell of a time tracking skulks; meanwhile, electrified turret factories would be absolutely useless against marines.
This argument is why AvA and MvM aren't *easy*. They will likely take a fair amount of time to implement, to make sure balance works and is still fun. And hey, if it's not fun, it won't happen. No one's going to play a game that sucks, and Flay knows that perfectly well.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The key here is as you put it "if the idea has merit". People are going to differ in their determination of whether the idea of MvM/ AvA has merit.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And you have no say in that.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I see, so the years of experience that I have playing games ranging from "DukeNukem 3d" to "Operation Flashpoint" <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cut remaining mental masterbation.
Been playing games just as long, does it make a difference? Nope. I couldn't care less if you have a phD in game design, your comment is completely and utterly irrelevant. Fact.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I like the game because it is RTS/FPS hybrid that pits two _different_ teams against one another. I could argue that anything that removes the _different_ part isn't worth it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Considering the different part about NS IS THE ACTUAL RTS mode, this again, is irrelevant.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, I have an argument as to why it wouldn't be fun. It is not one that lends itself to be briefly explained ... but here goes. In NS - in sofar as playing a marine goes - the main draw is the excitement/tension created by knowing that there are scary creatures out for your blood. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't find them that scary. The aliens degenerate into bunnies with massive teeth (as jumping like an idiot is about the main tactic a skulk can use other than ambushing).
Sure, maybe you had numerous nightmares about the vorpal bunny from monty python, but I certainly didn't.
Now if the skulk could move like the Alien from AvP NOW we're talking scary. But it can't.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Excuse me, but I said _under-equipped_, meaning that they are not outfitted with necessarily the most _efficient_ means of killing in a variety of situations.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Really? You have a funny view of "under_equipped" and your argument still fails. The exact same reasons can be reversed for an alien vs marine game. This argument has no water, no legs to stand on and so on. Honestly, you are just being utterly ridiculous.
Incidently, hand grenades would be just as effective in a MvA game as well. In fact it makes more sense there than in a MvM in many respects. Grenades are used to breach rooms or to attack emplaced positions, not for general spamming. They also are not used on highly expensive equipment that you want to preserve!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->can't see that fighting various races would determine - to a degree - your choice of weapons then I give up.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
An LMG is just as effective against a man as it is an alien. If you cannot see that a general purpose rifle like the LMG is just as good against humans as aliens, I think YOU need to have a think about your arguments :/
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Odd, I thought most modern armies consider hand-grenades as somewhat useful little devices that most soldiers should have on them as standard. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You said they didn't have grenades, I proved you wrong. Now you change your tune and you're still wrong.
Not always do soldiers come standard with grenades, particularly those that fight in close quarters. If you are moving into certain situations grenades are not used or equipped due to the damage they cause to surrounding buildings. This is why SWAT police and the like do not carry around fragmentation grenades as standard (and flashbangs are favoured, but I doubt they would have overly much affect on an alien). Modern assault troops sometimes don't even have grenades due to the additional weight (they are fairly heavy).
I see grenade launchers as a mere escalation of equipment to meet the alien threat.
Otherwise a marine is perfectly equipped to deal with BOTH humans or aliens. Something you have FAILED utterly and miserably to actually show otherwise. When you tell me how the LMG or pistol are insufficient to kill humans then I'll believe you.
Until then....
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In terms of sci-fi atmosphere yes. I find it easier to believe a creature with enormous jaw/crushing power could take out a marine structure than G.I. Joe with a standard issue combat-knife. Remember, in sci-fi we can explain everything straightforwardly <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It doesn't have enormous jaws, they are only as big as a dogs. If the skulk is around the size of a dog they could presumably have the jaw pressure of around 800 psi (very high btw). Enough to bite through bone with effort, but to go through metal? That is a bit of a stretch. That would depend on the skull of course.
Of course, if you think you know enough biology, go ahead and try to explain how a skulk can attach enough muscles to chew through metal based on the hyena. I'd love to see a 'straightforward' explanation now, remember to note what the models skull looks like btw.
Again, explain to me how the alien (skulk) attaches enough muscles to its skull to be able to bite through the thick metal of say...a res tower.
Now an onos or fade? Yes, I can definitely see those turning structures into kibble easily (especially the onos). A skulk on the other hand is going to have a bit of a harder time, and a lerk would have no chance (not that it has a bite anymore).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Again, you seem to assume that commanders just love dishing out equipment for their guys to use. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No of course, how silly of me. The moment the commander saw he was facing human opposition he wouldn't bother building anything except an IP and armoury. He would then spend the rest of the game spamming med packs.
OF COURSE!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->sure they'd have those jetpacks ready as soon as the first grenade touches down<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
5 minutes in 1.04 and in 1.1 Jetpacks come actually at around the same time as grenade launchers.
Yeah, that would be an interesting idea, a sort of hybrid race that was some human DNA and some bacterial DNA. They could possibly retain the commander of the marines, but mix some evolutionary flexibility of the aliens-Perhaps dictated by their commander.
It would be sufficiently different from the other two races in any event.
<!--QuoteBegin--Aegeri+Jul 7 2003, 01:41 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aegeri @ Jul 7 2003, 01:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Too little argument from you, lots of conjecture though, but no arguments. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm sorry you feel that way. Unfortunately I think Coil is right in that the "discussion" has degenerated somewhat into a game of one-up-manship over each and every point.
I feel that if you are basically going to discard my opinions as "irrelevant" there is no further point in adding to an already overly long post.
I think a fundamental difference in our ideas stems from differences in how we appreciate the atmosphere in NS. Clearly we will never see eye-to-eye on a number of issues; things that I will never be able to prove via some sort of rigorous mathematically sound argument that will meet with your approval I'm afraid.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm sorry you feel that way. Unfortunately I think Coil is right in that the "discussion" has degenerated somewhat into a game of one-up-manship over each and every point.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Possibly.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I feel that if you are basically going to discard my opinions as "irrelevant" there is no further point in adding to an already overly long post.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, the problem is unless you make an actual argument based on evidence in game (or from some other source) then it is irrelevant. Opinions are generally irrelevant in this argument (Such as what YOU think) unless backed up by evidence: IE It would take 3 years for marines to kill eachother because the LMG doesn't do enough damage (Which isn't right, but that is an example. Nobody wants to fight in a war of attrition for 2 hours).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think a fundamental difference in our ideas stems from differences in how we appreciate the atmosphere in NS. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, I see it as "RTS" and that is NS thing. I can make arguments that is the main distinguishing point of NS (And it is) otherwise it's just AvP without the aliens being quite as evil.
However, the atmosphere is irrelevant (yes, there is that word again) to this discussion as it is more if 'Marine vs Marine' is fun and can be done. Neither of which you provided arguments that it won't work.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Clearly we will never see eye-to-eye on a number of issues; things that I will never be able to prove via some sort of rigorous mathematically sound argument that will meet with your approval I'm afraid.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly, without evidence you cannot put forth any arguments I will find worthwhile. What arguments you have presented have had no supporting evidence, meaning, I haven't had anything to argue with (hence I just say it's irrelevant and move on).
So I suppose we will not get anywhere in particular. I still think MvM can work, and haven't seen anything that says it can't.
LOL, I love it when people start to figure things out.
I have 2 ideas for hybrid teams. The first is a simple idea of what is basically a regular karhaa team, but there is 1 (maybe more) infected marines. An infected marine can command by jumping into a hive (pressing "Use"), but I wouldn't know where to start as far as actual features of such a team, and balance could be impossible.
The other idea was a sort of hybrid team that would be as different as possible, like a true 3rd race in SC/WCIII/C&C:RA2YR tradition. The principle behind it is that another organization (other then the TSA) was conducting tests on the Karhaa using the Infected Marines infromation on the interaction of Nano-tech on Karhaa biology. This research was applied to combine human and kahaa biology with the latest in cybernetic technology to create an obedient fighting force with the intelligence of humans, the strength of the aliens, and the precision of machines. The Frankinstien's Monster like cybernetic constructs would be able to literally salvage the body parts of their human and alien enemies to repair and build new drones. I am not Sure if there should be a commder, but I have some ideas on the classes. The basic trooper would be a lot like a human, 2 legs, and 2 human arms that can be used to fire guns. The main difference is these troopers have a 2nd set of arms (from a fade) on their shoulders. The heavier trooper would be humanoid, except larger, with big mauling arms and the capability to carrier either an HMG, chaingun, Grenade Launcher or acid rocket. The other idea I had was that either the buildings could be caried around by a player and deployed, and/or would be driven around and then deployed (think night elves of WCIII). The other player class or babbler or what ever would be a techno- skull, an idea I sort of got from <a href='http://www.cybermoonstudios.com/squeeka.gif' target='_blank'>this comic</a>. It would be a human/cybernetic skull with 4 skulk arms attached, allowing it to climb walls like a skulk.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So I suppose we will not get anywhere in particular. I still think MvM can work, and haven't seen anything that says it can't. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, at least we can exercise good judgement and show a level of respect for one another as we are doing now. Good karma for the world and all that.
I concede that MvM _can_ work. But will you agree with me when I say that it will require _changes_ besides just some new art-work to make it fun ?
I think my main beef with this entire thread has been what I perceive as people basically saying "MvM Cool...we'll just do x, y, z and make a map Like M and that'll be that" without considering deeper issues such as the fact that marines were balanced originally against one race, and now they're to be put up against a different race. Or that maybe a large section of the player base might depend heavily on the atmosphere of AvM for a fun playing experience. And as a support to this I can show you that at least some players have already compared MvM to CS.
Comments
...Yeah i got a D+ in biology so....yeah.
I would like to see a oni vs lerk fight .... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then play tournament mode, Friendly Fire is on and you can kill each other!
I always play tourny mode when I make my own server, so I can teach the RC bots whos in charge!
"Build the Rez tower, BUILD IT!, I SIAD freaking BUILD IT!"
(gets out of comm chair, takes out hand gun, BANG, 1 shot to the back of the head)
"Anyone else want to play Hero!?"
i also heard a few people saying it wouldnt Be NS and iagree with MvM but Natural Selection is when nature "selects" a species to evolve to better benefit that species, err err i think AvA would be perfect, i could unserstand MvM would much be almost like CS or Fa or DoD but i really like the AvA idea, i mean some stories only cover MvA and you dont hear about aliens competing for superiority, im sure theres diffrent groups of aliens, and it would be like ants, when they see another ant in thier "hive" or territory they attack and kill it, why not have 2 alien species competing for superiority <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Development resources are finite. Flayra only has so much time. The mappers only have so much time.
So, in the short-to-medium term, any work done on same-race battles takes away from the core AvM game.
I don't know about you, but I want the core game to keep progressing. More polish, more depth, more tweaking, better HUDs, better waypoints, more maps...
When the AvM core is *really* mature, then let's consider these diversions. And I don't know about you, but I forsee it being quite a while before AvM is as good as it can be. Maybe never.
Heck, I'd want NS ported to HL2 before doing these extra modes!
Maybe. As a rine I rarely shoot RTs to death, wither I knife it, or cover a team mate as they knife it. I believe (but don't quote me on this) that in 2.0 alien towers have less health, making shooting them more viable, but 2.0 rine towers are just as tough if not tougher. I would prefer to knife them when ever possible. And if I waste my ammo shooting an electric tower then I hope my enemy rines can ambush me with my clip empty.
Usless tech, LOL! Mines will own in M vs. M.
I think the main problem is that you'd have to do a lot of playtesting to shake out the uber-strategies (like the venerable JP/HMG rush). And every time you tweaked something to nerf a MvA uber-strategy, you'd have to make sure that didn't open up a new AvA or MvM uber-strategy.
IMO, the risk is not one side having an unfair advantage. The risk is one strategy becoming so dominant that the game is reduced to a rush to see which side can implement that strategy quickest.
Second of all, I notice a disturbing trend here to associate MvM as a deathmatch affair. On the contrary - MvM would be the most intense strategic battle in ANY hl mod EVER. So what if you dont have recoil - where is it written that in any human vs human game recoil is a prereq for fun?
Third - you cant use electrified tf cause it will be useless. BIG DEAL. So dont research it then. You cannot argue balance problems when two identical teams face each other.
Finally, adding these extra scenarios will, if nothing else, add depth to ns. There can be no logical arguement against that statement. More tactics, more variety - its depth fellas, and depth means it will hold our attentions for a lot longer
WORD OF WARNING
On the side of caution - adding depth is not always a good thing. Think back to the paratrooper rounds in DoD - absolute shambles. Failing to realise that most of its player base was from cs players tired of waiting 3 mins after dying, the dod team implemented cs rounds into dod to try and increase the depth of the game. Not smart. The devs need to be really sure that MvM and AvA is what the players really want - and despite all the negativity here, I'm sure it is. And even if it isnt, at least you have the option of not running MvM and AvA maps on ur servers.
Conclusion - the addition of MvM and AvA can only be a win-win whether you like em or not. The addition brings depth (and even if you dont like em, at least they will bring more ppl to ns and KEEP them there thus prolonging the life of the game you love, and you can simply play on the NO MVM AVA servers), and what looks like being a hell of a lot of fun.
I for one look forward to attempting to chomp a lerk out of the sky, insane cerility skulk wars, feeding frenzy multiple skulk ambush of onos, fades trying to swipe lerks from the sky, huge 8v8 ha hmg wars, and the creamy goodness of placing a shottie firmly up the anus of a ha and pulling the trigger <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To address your points:
i) Yes you can find a story/explanation for just about anything in sci-fi. The question is, _should_ you ? In this case I don't think so. Think aliens 3 and Highlander 2. Movies that should never have been made.
ii) I don't really think MvM would be deathmatch per se - just boring. It's not just about recoil, it is about a whole host of factors that are pretty much "standard" in most games that are absent in NS. See my previous posts for a description of these factors. My point is that for me, in a human vs human scenario the bar has been raised. I expect certain things to keep my interest. Fun is always subjective of course...what is fun for you may not be fun for me etc. I do feel however, that the atmosphere just isn't there in a MvM game.
iii) The big deal about electrified tf is that it eliminates yet another strategic option from the game. Making games that much more predictable.
iv) While they may add depth to a degree, why not add depth to the MvA game by exploring different scenarios first ?
Personally I liked the paratrooper cs-style round based play in DoD.
As for your last comment, keep in mind that you're dependant on a Comm for equipment. In a MvM game I submit that alot of the time you'll be running around with good ol pistol/lmg. Fun ? I think not.
** some extra thoughts **
Don't you think that the stock marine is somewhat under-equipped to take on human opposition ? No grenade for room/ vent clearing. And while a knife may work well against organic/living alien structures... seeing a marine knife a comm-chair to death would be just silly IMO.
Then you have other issues. Marines can't move like aliens right...so then how do you deal with launcher spam ? I suppose you could argue that both teams can have them...sure... but if an uber-weapon comes along then thats probably what'll be used the most...boring. I guess my point here is that while you can have balance in the sense that one team mirrors another, that does not automatically imply that an _interesting_ game will follow.
And it is possible that AvA and MvM wont be as interesting as AvM - but at least it will be different, and I'm sure at least SOME people will like it. Lets give em the option.
If people dont like it - servers that dont have them in their map rotation will appear.
If people love it then servers will appear that have ONLY AvA and MvM.
i) Yes you can find a story/explanation for just about anything in sci-fi. The question is, _should_ you ? In this case I don't think so. Think aliens 3 and Highlander 2. Movies that should never have been made.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well yes actually, you can and if the idea has merit then it can be. It is also relatively straightforward.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->ii) I don't really think MvM would be deathmatch per se - just boring. It's not just about recoil, it is about a whole host of factors that are pretty much "standard" in most games that are absent in NS. See my previous posts for a description of these factors. My point is that for me, in a human vs human scenario the bar has been raised. I expect certain things to keep my interest. Fun is always subjective of course...what is fun for you may not be fun for me etc. I do feel however, that the atmosphere just isn't there in a MvM game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unless you have played it, this is largely an irrelevant comment.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->iii) The big deal about electrified tf is that it eliminates yet another strategic option from the game. Making games that much more predictable.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Electrified buildings are clearly meant to protect certain points, on the other hand using these is now changed. You will have to use them more intelligently (such as placing right beside an entranceway) in order to be effective. Their use changes, though elecrified RT's are probably useless.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->iv) While they may add depth to a degree, why not add depth to the MvA game by exploring different scenarios first ?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you need too? I like the game because it's an RTS/FPS hybrid. Anything that removes the RTS part isn't worth it. Adding a new MvM (I can't see AvA working, melee attacks are too sloppy) could work and it is really the commander vs commander that intrests me.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Personally I liked the paratrooper cs-style round based play in DoD.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thankfully, nobody else did and it was removed.
Thank god, the only good thing the DoD team did from 3.1>1.0.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As for your last comment, keep in mind that you're dependant on a Comm for equipment. In a MvM game I submit that alot of the time you'll be running around with good ol pistol/lmg. Fun ? I think not.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Any argument as to why? I think not.
How exactly is this ANY different to a Marine vs Alien game?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Don't you think that the stock marine is somewhat under-equipped to take on human opposition ? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ummm if a person has a gun are they equipped enough to kill YOU? I think so.
This is a ridiculous argument. By what you're saying you might as well argue the aliens are badly equipped as well for the same reasons!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No grenade for room/ vent clearing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Odd, I thought Marines had a grenade launcher.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And while a knife may work well against organic/living alien structures... seeing a marine knife a comm-chair to death would be just silly IMO. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And this is any more stupid than an alien biting a marine structure to death?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Then you have other issues. Marines can't move like aliens right...so then how do you deal with launcher spam ? I suppose you could argue that both teams can have them...sure... but if an uber-weapon comes along then thats probably what'll be used the most...boring. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, this argument is silly. Marines have Jetpacks which increase their movement by a lot. Grenade spam can hence be dealt with in that manner. Grenades are also a poor weapon even on large objects. Otherwise they would mince fades and onos, which they don't.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I guess my point here is that while you can have balance in the sense that one team mirrors another, that does not automatically imply that an _interesting_ game will follow.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is a point you have failed to make.
Personally, I think they would do better making a new 3rd side (perhaps even a hybrid or similar) that combines the marine commander with SOME alien flexibility.
I tend to agree that general TSAvsTSA or AlienVsAlien would be rather uninteresting after a while.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->To address your points:
i) Yes you can find a story/explanation for just about anything in sci-fi. The question is, _should_ you ? In this case I don't think so. Think aliens 3 and Highlander 2. Movies that should never have been made.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well yes actually, you can and if the idea has merit then it can be. It is also relatively straightforward.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The key here is as you put it "if the idea has merit". People are going to differ in their determination of whether the idea of MvM/ AvA has merit.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->ii) I don't really think MvM would be deathmatch per se - just boring. It's not just about recoil, it is about a whole host of factors that are pretty much "standard" in most games that are absent in NS... I do feel however, that the atmosphere just isn't there in a MvM game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unless you have played it, this is largely an irrelevant comment.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I see, so the years of experience that I have playing games ranging from "DukeNukem 3d" to "Operation Flashpoint" in terms of realism, and the fact that I have played alot of NS (meaning I understand what it is like to be in a FPS/RTS environment) basically leaves me with no insight into what _I_ perceive as fun or what will/won't work for at least some gamers out there. Good to know !
I mean yes, I may not know exactly how things will play out, but I feel I have a rather good idea. I don't need to experience what it is like to be hit by a large hammer in order to know that it won't feel good. The reason is that I have experienced pain on other levels/under different circumstances. In other words I have accumulated enough knowledge to form an intelligent pseudo-experience in my brain.
Are you seriously telling me that there is no difference in atmosphere between MvA and MvM ?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->iv) While they may add depth to a degree, why not add depth to the MvA game by exploring different scenarios first ?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you need too? I like the game because it's an RTS/FPS hybrid. Anything that removes the RTS part isn't worth it. Adding a new MvM (I can't see AvA working, melee attacks are too sloppy) could work and it is really the commander vs commander that intrests me.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like the game because it is RTS/FPS hybrid that pits two _different_ teams against one another. I could argue that anything that removes the _different_ part isn't worth it. Interestingly enough, AvA would probably be more appealing than MvM to me, because of the need for a stronger set of FPS skills. Btw...don't knock AvA...you haven't played it <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Commander vs Commander has some interest for me, but I wouldn't sacrifice having a poor FPS experience as a result. I have this image of two commanders med-spamming to the tune/beat of "dueling banjo's"... priceless !
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As for your last comment, keep in mind that you're dependant on a Comm for equipment. In a MvM game I submit that alot of the time you'll be running around with good ol pistol/lmg. Fun ? I think not.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Any argument as to why? I think not.
How exactly is this ANY different to a Marine vs Alien game?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, I have an argument as to why it wouldn't be fun. It is not one that lends itself to be briefly explained ... but here goes. In NS - in sofar as playing a marine goes - the main draw is the excitement/tension created by knowing that there are scary creatures out for your blood. This causes me to overlook the fact that I am not rewarded for precise aiming (headshots) and that my movement options are limited and that I'm using somewhat uninteresting weapons. It is primarily a question of <b>atmosphere</b> that makes it fun as far as _I_ am concerned. That is why it is different.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Don't you think that the stock marine is somewhat under-equipped to take on human opposition ? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ummm if a person has a gun are they equipped enough to kill YOU? I think so.
This is a ridiculous argument. By what you're saying you might as well argue the aliens are badly equipped as well for the same reasons!
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Excuse me, but I said _under-equipped_, meaning that they are not outfitted with necessarily the most _efficient_ means of killing in a variety of situations. Obviously a gun can kill, that's not the point. If you can't see that fighting various races would determine - to a degree - your choice of weapons then I give up.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No grenade for room/ vent clearing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Odd, I thought Marines had a grenade launcher.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Odd, I thought most modern armies consider hand-grenades as somewhat useful little devices that most soldiers should have on them as standard. Oh... I know.. you mean that Comm just magically dishes out grenade launchers from the get-go...ah... I see. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And while a knife may work well against organic/living alien structures... seeing a marine knife a comm-chair to death would be just silly IMO. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And this is any more stupid than an alien biting a marine structure to death?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In terms of sci-fi atmosphere yes. I find it easier to believe a creature with enormous jaw/crushing power could take out a marine structure than G.I. Joe with a standard issue combat-knife. Remember, in sci-fi we can explain everything straightforwardly <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Then you have other issues. Marines can't move like aliens right...so then how do you deal with launcher spam ? I suppose you could argue that both teams can have them...sure... but if an uber-weapon comes along then thats probably what'll be used the most...boring. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, this argument is silly. Marines have Jetpacks which increase their movement by a lot. Grenade spam can hence be dealt with in that manner. Grenades are also a poor weapon even on large objects. Otherwise they would mince fades and onos, which they don't
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, you seem to assume that commanders just love dishing out equipment for their guys to use. I'm sure they'd have those jetpacks ready as soon as the first grenade touches down. As for the poor HA guys ? Geez, guess its tough luck. Fades can move like the bejesus....Onos are the equivalent of an Abrams battle-tank i.e. they don't need to move, they just take that grenade and giggle because it tickles. And chances are the Fade/Onos has a nice little defense chamber/healing area to fall back to, which helps offset spam damage.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I guess my point here is that while you can have balance in the sense that one team mirrors another, that does not automatically imply that an _interesting_ game will follow.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is a point you have failed to make.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Damn, you're a tough audience ! So if we make a game where both sides have starting access to a "nuke-the-other team/ win automatically" button and the winner is decided within seconds...thats interesting right ? The teams are mirror-balanced after all.
I agree, good point. And if they were allowed to bite through webbing (which would make sense) it would seem that webbing no longer has much use.
Lets take a look at the MvM/ AvA from a 30 000 ft overview. Marine and alien teams are balanced/tuned <b>against each other</b>. This means that certain abilities make sense mostly/only in the context of Marine vs Aliens. Also, keep in mind that damage from weapons/rate-of-fire/movement etc. are balanced from a Marine vs Alien point of view. How many bites will it take one skulk to kill another was not the initial factor that decided how much damage a skulk bite will do. I submit that alot of things would need to be reconfigured for a AvA / MvM game in order to have a chance of making things fun.
While it is true that AvA and MvM will be balanced in the sense that they are "mirror-balanced", this does not imply that the game will be interesting, neither does it imply that all weapons/abilities continue to make sense. And with losing weapons/abilities that no longer make sense you are starting to narrow down the options for tactics. This in turn tends to make for a more predictable game which in turn makes for a more boring game.
"Spam Wars ! : Episode 4 - ' A new Can' ":
See how Princess LayLow, LukeOut and OnlyOne-Can-o-pee take on the evil empire of Spam. See OnlyOne battle Bath-Invader in the ultimate showdown of launcher spam. See LukeOut start training in the ways of the 'jooDie' and receive his first light-nade-launcher.
Coming soon to a server not near you !
Where's the fun in it?(seems like a wannabe CS idea to me)
I swear...if they put this in, we'll never see MvA game again unless its a scrim...
AND IS IT ME, OR IS THIS FORUM GETTIN NUBIFIED RIGHT NOW!?
The argument that "mirror balance" is not necessarily fun is perfectly balanced; many weapons/abilities are specifically designed to counter the opposing team. Look at defensive structures - OCs would have a hell of a time tracking skulks; meanwhile, electrified turret factories would be absolutely useless against marines.
This argument is why AvA and MvM aren't *easy*. They will likely take a fair amount of time to implement, to make sure balance works and is still fun. And hey, if it's not fun, it won't happen. No one's going to play a game that sucks, and Flay knows that perfectly well.
And you have no say in that.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I see, so the years of experience that I have playing games ranging from "DukeNukem 3d" to "Operation Flashpoint" <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cut remaining mental masterbation.
Been playing games just as long, does it make a difference? Nope. I couldn't care less if you have a phD in game design, your comment is completely and utterly irrelevant. Fact.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I like the game because it is RTS/FPS hybrid that pits two _different_ teams against one another. I could argue that anything that removes the _different_ part isn't worth it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Considering the different part about NS IS THE ACTUAL RTS mode, this again, is irrelevant.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, I have an argument as to why it wouldn't be fun. It is not one that lends itself to be briefly explained ... but here goes. In NS - in sofar as playing a marine goes - the main draw is the excitement/tension created by knowing that there are scary creatures out for your blood. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't find them that scary. The aliens degenerate into bunnies with massive teeth (as jumping like an idiot is about the main tactic a skulk can use other than ambushing).
Sure, maybe you had numerous nightmares about the vorpal bunny from monty python, but I certainly didn't.
Now if the skulk could move like the Alien from AvP NOW we're talking scary. But it can't.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Excuse me, but I said _under-equipped_, meaning that they are not outfitted with necessarily the most _efficient_ means of killing in a variety of situations.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Really? You have a funny view of "under_equipped" and your argument still fails. The exact same reasons can be reversed for an alien vs marine game. This argument has no water, no legs to stand on and so on. Honestly, you are just being utterly ridiculous.
Incidently, hand grenades would be just as effective in a MvA game as well. In fact it makes more sense there than in a MvM in many respects. Grenades are used to breach rooms or to attack emplaced positions, not for general spamming. They also are not used on highly expensive equipment that you want to preserve!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->can't see that fighting various races would determine - to a degree - your choice of weapons then I give up.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
An LMG is just as effective against a man as it is an alien. If you cannot see that a general purpose rifle like the LMG is just as good against humans as aliens, I think YOU need to have a think about your arguments :/
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Odd, I thought most modern armies consider hand-grenades as somewhat useful little devices that most soldiers should have on them as standard. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You said they didn't have grenades, I proved you wrong. Now you change your tune and you're still wrong.
Not always do soldiers come standard with grenades, particularly those that fight in close quarters. If you are moving into certain situations grenades are not used or equipped due to the damage they cause to surrounding buildings. This is why SWAT police and the like do not carry around fragmentation grenades as standard (and flashbangs are favoured, but I doubt they would have overly much affect on an alien). Modern assault troops sometimes don't even have grenades due to the additional weight (they are fairly heavy).
I see grenade launchers as a mere escalation of equipment to meet the alien threat.
Otherwise a marine is perfectly equipped to deal with BOTH humans or aliens. Something you have FAILED utterly and miserably to actually show otherwise. When you tell me how the LMG or pistol are insufficient to kill humans then I'll believe you.
Until then....
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In terms of sci-fi atmosphere yes. I find it easier to believe a creature with enormous jaw/crushing power could take out a marine structure than G.I. Joe with a standard issue combat-knife. Remember, in sci-fi we can explain everything straightforwardly <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It doesn't have enormous jaws, they are only as big as a dogs. If the skulk is around the size of a dog they could presumably have the jaw pressure of around 800 psi (very high btw). Enough to bite through bone with effort, but to go through metal? That is a bit of a stretch. That would depend on the skull of course.
Of course, if you think you know enough biology, go ahead and try to explain how a skulk can attach enough muscles to chew through metal based on the hyena. I'd love to see a 'straightforward' explanation now, remember to note what the models skull looks like btw.
Again, explain to me how the alien (skulk) attaches enough muscles to its skull to be able to bite through the thick metal of say...a res tower.
(Here are some other figures:
Rottweiler=800psi
Hyena=4,500psi
Lion=3,000psi (or thereabouts)
Tasmanian devil=1,200psi)
Now an onos or fade? Yes, I can definitely see those turning structures into kibble easily (especially the onos). A skulk on the other hand is going to have a bit of a harder time, and a lerk would have no chance (not that it has a bite anymore).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Again, you seem to assume that commanders just love dishing out equipment for their guys to use. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No of course, how silly of me. The moment the commander saw he was facing human opposition he wouldn't bother building anything except an IP and armoury. He would then spend the rest of the game spamming med packs.
OF COURSE!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->sure they'd have those jetpacks ready as soon as the first grenade touches down<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
5 minutes in 1.04 and in 1.1 Jetpacks come actually at around the same time as grenade launchers.
No argument, as normal :/
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Damn, you're a tough audience !<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Too little argument from you, lots of conjecture though, but no arguments.
It would be sufficiently different from the other two races in any event.
I'm sorry you feel that way. Unfortunately I think Coil is right in that the "discussion" has degenerated somewhat into a game of one-up-manship over each and every point.
I feel that if you are basically going to discard my opinions as "irrelevant" there is no further point in adding to an already overly long post.
I think a fundamental difference in our ideas stems from differences in how we appreciate the atmosphere in NS. Clearly we will never see eye-to-eye on a number of issues; things that I will never be able to prove via some sort of rigorous mathematically sound argument that will meet with your approval I'm afraid.
Possibly.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I feel that if you are basically going to discard my opinions as "irrelevant" there is no further point in adding to an already overly long post.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, the problem is unless you make an actual argument based on evidence in game (or from some other source) then it is irrelevant. Opinions are generally irrelevant in this argument (Such as what YOU think) unless backed up by evidence: IE It would take 3 years for marines to kill eachother because the LMG doesn't do enough damage (Which isn't right, but that is an example. Nobody wants to fight in a war of attrition for 2 hours).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think a fundamental difference in our ideas stems from differences in how we appreciate the atmosphere in NS. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, I see it as "RTS" and that is NS thing. I can make arguments that is the main distinguishing point of NS (And it is) otherwise it's just AvP without the aliens being quite as evil.
However, the atmosphere is irrelevant (yes, there is that word again) to this discussion as it is more if 'Marine vs Marine' is fun and can be done. Neither of which you provided arguments that it won't work.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Clearly we will never see eye-to-eye on a number of issues; things that I will never be able to prove via some sort of rigorous mathematically sound argument that will meet with your approval I'm afraid.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly, without evidence you cannot put forth any arguments I will find worthwhile. What arguments you have presented have had no supporting evidence, meaning, I haven't had anything to argue with (hence I just say it's irrelevant and move on).
So I suppose we will not get anywhere in particular. I still think MvM can work, and haven't seen anything that says it can't.
I have 2 ideas for hybrid teams. The first is a simple idea of what is basically a regular karhaa team, but there is 1 (maybe more) infected marines. An infected marine can command by jumping into a hive (pressing "Use"), but I wouldn't know where to start as far as actual features of such a team, and balance could be impossible.
The other idea was a sort of hybrid team that would be as different as possible, like a true 3rd race in SC/WCIII/C&C:RA2YR tradition. The principle behind it is that another organization (other then the TSA) was conducting tests on the Karhaa using the Infected Marines infromation on the interaction of Nano-tech on Karhaa biology. This research was applied to combine human and kahaa biology with the latest in cybernetic technology to create an obedient fighting force with the intelligence of humans, the strength of the aliens, and the precision of machines. The Frankinstien's Monster like cybernetic constructs would be able to literally salvage the body parts of their human and alien enemies to repair and build new drones. I am not Sure if there should be a commder, but I have some ideas on the classes. The basic trooper would be a lot like a human, 2 legs, and 2 human arms that can be used to fire guns. The main difference is these troopers have a 2nd set of arms (from a fade) on their shoulders. The heavier trooper would be humanoid, except larger, with big mauling arms and the capability to carrier either an HMG, chaingun, Grenade Launcher or acid rocket. The other idea I had was that either the buildings could be caried around by a player and deployed, and/or would be driven around and then deployed (think night elves of WCIII). The other player class or babbler or what ever would be a techno- skull, an idea I sort of got from <a href='http://www.cybermoonstudios.com/squeeka.gif' target='_blank'>this comic</a>. It would be a human/cybernetic skull with 4 skulk arms attached, allowing it to climb walls like a skulk.
So I suppose we will not get anywhere in particular. I still think MvM can work, and haven't seen anything that says it can't.
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Well, at least we can exercise good judgement and show a level of respect for one another as we are doing now. Good karma for the world and all that.
I concede that MvM _can_ work. But will you agree with me when I say that it will require _changes_ besides just some new art-work to make it fun ?
I think my main beef with this entire thread has been what I perceive as people basically saying "MvM Cool...we'll just do x, y, z and make a map Like M and that'll be that" without considering deeper issues such as the fact that marines were balanced originally against one race, and now they're to be put up against a different race. Or that maybe a large section of the player base might depend heavily on the atmosphere of AvM for a fun playing experience. And as a support to this I can show you that at least some players have already compared MvM to CS.