[/U][/B]People like to argue that it is balanced because the aliens can heal for free with dc's and heal spray. These are not comparable. dc's require leaving combat, unless the aliens already control the area, and heal spraying puts a gorge in an area where they are vulnerable. They are free, but they are less convenient in combat. Health packs cost res and require the attention of the commander. I say <b><u>yes</u></b> to med spam. I don't think it matters if the commander has a key bound to drop health packs.
If med spam is ever found to be a problem, there could be a research added into the cc that makes med packs cheaper. I know one was tried early in 1.1 to be able to drop them period, and it was used 100% of the time. This would only make them cheaper, possibly from 4 or 5 res down to 2 res. The upgrade could cost 30 res and take 1 or 2 minutes. If you need that 30 res early on you can wait to get the upgrade, and if one person has equipment they can be healed, but lots of healing would mean that you want the upgrade. I don't know how useful adding this would be (now that I think about it, it would probably be used 100% of the time anyway), but it is an idea.
This is my umpteenth post about this so I'll just say No I don't like it and it doesn't waste all that much res. Whats 100 res if it gets a Hive to go down!
<!--QuoteBegin--Ryo-Ohki+Jul 10 2003, 10:50 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ryo-Ohki @ Jul 10 2003, 10:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Note: this refers to instances of the commander spamming health when they have bound a key to drop health. This emphatically does not refer to instances of the marine commander being skilled enough to quickly deploy health packs with their mouse.
My vote: No. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Erm, I'm skilled enough to click repeatedly. If the commander was meant to do this handicapped like I do it (with the mouse), there wouldn't be binds to each of the buildings, or a way to block it (though I wouldn't know how). Soooo
Medspam is great! It is balanced cause it costs res, people!
dropping 10 medpacks/ammo is 20 res, for that you could pretty much give out a jp and shotgun, so really the comm is paying to keep the guy there longer instead of re-equiping him at base.
and if you die as a skulk, but the comm spent 10 res healing the marine, don't you think you did a good job? <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo-->
The main problem I have with medspam is there is no way to counter it as an alien. Marines can kill the gorge or D chambers that are healing the other aliens, but aliens have no way of attacking the commander dropping the medpacks (short of chopping on the comm chair for 5 minutes).
I would like to see aliens being able to destroy medpacks (give them health like mines). This would at least provide a higher degree of skill to successfully medspam. If you just carpeted the floor with medpacks, then a fade could acid rocket them away <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
When I am a commander, I don't make carpets and spam it. I only drop it near or on top of a marine. Spamming it is just unfair and a waste of resources.
YES <img src='http://www.fpweb.com/canada/images/ca_flag_animated.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image'> Go Marines! GO IMMORTALITY!! GO SPAM!!!!
You aliens are just jealous <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> <--- Helpless (BWHAHAHA.. All your hive are belong to us!!)
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
I used to think it was unfair, but it really does cost a lot to make a CARPET of medpacks. And if there isn't a carpet the marine is not immortal. I find that marines who have a comm that gives medpacks frequently but correctly are far more dangerous. As it's been said before, it's a very inefficient use of resources and if the marines are doing it either they have the res to do it or they'll run out quick.
<!--QuoteBegin--Ryo-Ohki+Jul 10 2003, 10:50 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ryo-Ohki @ Jul 10 2003, 10:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Note: this refers to instances of the commander spamming health when they have bound a key to drop health. This emphatically does not refer to instances of the marine commander being skilled enough to quickly deploy health packs with their mouse. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If the comm is fast enough with his mouse clicks at health dropping I have no issue with it. If he has a key bound so he can just hold the key down or hammer on the key to just rain the health down then yes I do have a problem with that. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
FYI In 2.0 the build menu is assigned to qwerasdfzxcv, so you better get used to it.
Marik_SteeleTo rule in hell...Join Date: 2002-11-20Member: 9466Members
edited July 2003
I don't have a problem with it being <i>possible</i>, but I'm rather convinced that 9 times out of 10, it's not the best option the commander can take. A commander who plans ahead more will generally use the resources to simply get an armor upgrade ahead of time. Medspam in a concentrated area may make one marine "invincible" for as long as the meds keep coming, but that's generally not as valuable [edit](or as cost-effective; from Grendel's post it looks like we're on the same wavelength)[/edit] as a long-term investment for the whole team in the form of a new upgrade or structure.
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
Whilst I appreciate the sentiments that spawned this thread...
The issue is not medpack spam if you think about it, but the fact that the marines can afford to blow 20 res on one marine just to keep him healthy.
This is an issue with the resource model that is fixed in 2.0 (FYI), marines will now need to own a hell of a lot of nodes in order to afford med spam more than once or twice.
Just because it's possible, it doesn't mean it's <i>right</i>. To my mind it's a lot like pistol scripts - becasue of the lack of a speed cap people go right ahead and exploit the hell out of it. If meds had a speed cap (a comm could drop one every two seconds, say) this whole argument would never happen.
However, now people are used to it, they're very reluctant to give it up. Here we get another parallel to something that's possible but also wrong in every sensible player's eye - bunnyhopping. Those who can bhop will generally defend it til they're blue in the face, pulling out all kinds of facetious arguments to justify their stance ("it's a skill" being most common). Same with medspam - "It costs hella res" seems to be the most common defence here, but really if a team has a res advantage it costs nothing at all - often leaving a very disgruntled alien team who finally mustered a last stand to have it lamed away from them like that.
I think my stance is that you shouldn't be able to buy invulnerability.
---
Bear in mind that this is based solely on my experience of public play - maybe it's completely different in matches, but since the vast majority of NS that gets played <i>isn't</i> matches, I don't much care about what goes on there. Which basically boils down to ignoring all the Vets' opinions on this matter. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
I don't like the idea of a marine being for - all practical intents and purposes - immortal because of a continual shower of medpacks. To me this is the heart of the matter.
While it may cost res for the shower, if that marine goes on to do a critical task (like welding a hive with a jetpack classic), then the spam will be worth it every time.
I think we can all appreciate that it's pretty darn cool having two distinct teams. I wouldn't really like to see some sort of medic class for the marine, as that would be too much like a gorge alien. So I don't have a problem with medpacks falling from the sky, but there should be some sort of time-restriction as well as resource restriction - in order to avoid a continuous shower.
Medpack spam with time delays (marine absorption/comm dispensing) Yes ! Medpack spam currently: No
I don't really mind medspam, given the huge resource cost. Also, I'd like it if people would refrain from randomly bashing bunnyhopping/bunnyhoppers. You know how divided people are on it so please don't bring it up in an unrelated thread.
(I brought it up becasue it <i>is</i> related, in my opinion. As is clear in my post... <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> )
I really don't care for said reasons, from now on, if someone says "DAMN MEDSPAM" in-game I'll ask them how many medpacks were spammed and tell him that the comm could have bought better stuff for that...and not necessarily in team-speak. It however is a problem when the comm healthspams a spawncamping marine, but now we have umbra-on-spawn, so yay! oh and for no reason: lolz!!!
To quote Frogg <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->FYI In 2.0 the build menu is assigned to qwerasdfzxcv, so you better get used to it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This key map assignment is editable, so you can get used to your own config now. Albeit, this is quite easy to use.
If the commander thinks that the life of one soldier is worth an arms lab, or perhaps another respoint, then yes. Feel free to spend your teams valuable resources to keep one soldier alive.
If you're letting the marines get that much res that it is viable, then you're gonna be in serious trouble anyway. Maybe the cost of meds just need to be increased, or as Moon said, time delays or adjusted absorbtion rate.
god you mean I scripted a keypad commander script for nothing? Firt of all you can't have hotkeys in aliases -fair enough, wait for 2.0- then in 2.0 it's all done for me? <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
This is because it's no different than having gorges and DCs healing a lerk etc. Also it has it's advantage (healing) and disadvantage (major resource drain). This makes the commander weigh up the need for it and if it's called for in any given situation. It can be the fall of a marine team by using all their res up but it can also gain the marines a needed location (such as red room in ns_nothing). Also to be honest this topic has been discussed to death so please lets just forget it ok?
Comments
If med spam is ever found to be a problem, there could be a research added into the cc that makes med packs cheaper. I know one was tried early in 1.1 to be able to drop them period, and it was used 100% of the time. This would only make them cheaper, possibly from 4 or 5 res down to 2 res. The upgrade could cost 30 res and take 1 or 2 minutes. If you need that 30 res early on you can wait to get the upgrade, and if one person has equipment they can be healed, but lots of healing would mean that you want the upgrade. I don't know how useful adding this would be (now that I think about it, it would probably be used 100% of the time anyway), but it is an idea.
No I don't like it and it doesn't waste all that much res.
Whats 100 res if it gets a Hive to go down!
My vote: No. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Erm, I'm skilled enough to click repeatedly. If the commander was meant to do this handicapped like I do it (with the mouse), there wouldn't be binds to each of the buildings, or a way to block it (though I wouldn't know how). Soooo
Short answer: Yes, it's all fair&dandy.
dropping 10 medpacks/ammo is 20 res, for that you could pretty much give out a jp and shotgun, so really the comm is paying to keep the guy there longer instead of re-equiping him at base.
and if you die as a skulk, but the comm spent 10 res healing the marine, don't you think you did a good job? <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo-->
I would like to see aliens being able to destroy medpacks (give them health like mines). This would at least provide a higher degree of skill to successfully medspam. If you just carpeted the floor with medpacks, then a fade could acid rocket them away <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
When I am a commander, I don't make carpets and spam it. I only drop it near or on top of a marine. Spamming it is just unfair and a waste of resources.
You aliens are just jealous <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <---- Immortal
<!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> <--- Helpless (BWHAHAHA.. All your hive are belong to us!!)
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If the comm is fast enough with his mouse clicks at health dropping I have no issue with it. If he has a key bound so he can just hold the key down or hammer on the key to just rain the health down then yes I do have a problem with that. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
FYI In 2.0 the build menu is assigned to qwerasdfzxcv, so you better get used to it.
The issue is not medpack spam if you think about it, but the fact that the marines can afford to blow 20 res on one marine just to keep him healthy.
This is an issue with the resource model that is fixed in 2.0 (FYI), marines will now need to own a hell of a lot of nodes in order to afford med spam more than once or twice.
However, now people are used to it, they're very reluctant to give it up. Here we get another parallel to something that's possible but also wrong in every sensible player's eye - bunnyhopping. Those who can bhop will generally defend it til they're blue in the face, pulling out all kinds of facetious arguments to justify their stance ("it's a skill" being most common). Same with medspam - "It costs hella res" seems to be the most common defence here, but really if a team has a res advantage it costs nothing at all - often leaving a very disgruntled alien team who finally mustered a last stand to have it lamed away from them like that.
I think my stance is that you shouldn't be able to buy invulnerability.
---
Bear in mind that this is based solely on my experience of public play - maybe it's completely different in matches, but since the vast majority of NS that gets played <i>isn't</i> matches, I don't much care about what goes on there. Which basically boils down to ignoring all the Vets' opinions on this matter. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
While it may cost res for the shower, if that marine goes on to do a critical task (like welding a hive with a jetpack classic), then the spam will be worth it every time.
I think we can all appreciate that it's pretty darn cool having two distinct teams. I wouldn't really like to see some sort of medic class for the marine, as that would be too much like a gorge alien. So I don't have a problem with medpacks falling from the sky, but there should be some sort of time-restriction as well as resource restriction - in order to avoid a continuous shower.
Medpack spam with time delays (marine absorption/comm dispensing) Yes !
Medpack spam currently: No
But it does kinda ruin the atmosphere
It however is a problem when the comm healthspams a spawncamping marine, but now we have umbra-on-spawn, so yay!
oh and for no reason: lolz!!!
Chomp chomp, oops there goes 30 res
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->FYI In 2.0 the build menu is assigned to qwerasdfzxcv, so you better get used to it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This key map assignment is editable, so you can get used to your own config now. Albeit, this is quite easy to use.
- jtm
Maybe the cost of meds just need to be increased, or as Moon said, time delays or adjusted absorbtion rate.
This is because it's no different than having gorges and DCs healing a lerk etc. Also it has it's advantage (healing) and disadvantage (major resource drain). This makes the commander weigh up the need for it and if it's called for in any given situation. It can be the fall of a marine team by using all their res up but it can also gain the marines a needed location (such as red room in ns_nothing). Also to be honest this topic has been discussed to death so please lets just forget it ok?
but i am sometimes guilty of doing a bit when im commander...
<!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo-->