Tarred And Feathered!
Marine0I
Join Date: 2002-11-14 Member: 8639Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2002-11-14 Member: 8639Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">The Natural-Selection Justice Tribunal</div> Natural-Selection is an incredible mod, and with 2.0 just around the corner it seems like it is about to take its rightful place in Half-Life history shoulder to shoulder with greats like Counter-Strike and Day of Defeat. And as will inevitably follow with greatness and popularity, we will see more sods, llamas, flappers and most worrying - Cheaters.
With VAC well nigh useless, and Cheating Death struggling to keep up, cheaters will eventually become a more regular occurence. On good servers regularly policed with fair minded admins this will never be too great a problem. A cheater shows, a demo is taken, proof is analysed and wonid permanently banned. w00t.
However, as we are all aware, this does absolutely nothing to slow the cheater down, he simply changes his name and moves to another server. CS players have been screaming for over a year for WON to universally ban wonids of known cheaters from all hl servers, but WON is incredibly reluctant, for the same reason many countries are reluctant to use the death penalty - 95% of ppl are guilty and deserve it, but you simply cannot be sure that everyone is 100% guilty.
"But my little brother installed the hacks while I was on holidays" "Someone stole my wonid" How is it possible to get around problems like these?
Well, I think I might have the answer. It came to me while reading about the constellation program. It seems that Flayra has the ability to add custom icons to peoples wonids. Now my idea is this - what stands in the way of the NS team setting up a court system using icons as punishments?
Fair minded "magistrates" are appointed, with the job of reviewing demos and screenshots of wonids of cheaters/antisocial players. They are then either declared innocent, suspicious, or guilty. A guilty player is then "Tarred and Feathered", his wonid is assigned the appropriate icon, and for the next say three months, he has an icon that allows players and admins to immediately recognise him as a troublemaker, and keep their eye on him.
If, at the end of the assigned period, he has not reoffended, the icon is removed. Should he reoffend in the assigned period, the icon is upgraded to a repeat offender icon. Three strikes and he is blacklisted. His icon marks him for immediate kick ban, and his wonid is universally available to admins on a cheaters database.
This style of system, imho, identifies troublesome players without taking unilateral banning action. Admins can easily keep an eye on them as they are clearly labeled, and players, when posting cheat demos on forums, have the added advantage of being able to point out that not only was he cheating, but he has been labeled as troublesome by the NS Justice Tribunal.
Thoughts? Opinions? Flames? OMG u stole my idea? Been suggested before and shot down? Please reply below.
EDIT
The above post is from mid 2003. On the third page is a quite positive reply from Flayra. Normally, I dont necropost, but given all the talk of BUS.... you get the idea.
With VAC well nigh useless, and Cheating Death struggling to keep up, cheaters will eventually become a more regular occurence. On good servers regularly policed with fair minded admins this will never be too great a problem. A cheater shows, a demo is taken, proof is analysed and wonid permanently banned. w00t.
However, as we are all aware, this does absolutely nothing to slow the cheater down, he simply changes his name and moves to another server. CS players have been screaming for over a year for WON to universally ban wonids of known cheaters from all hl servers, but WON is incredibly reluctant, for the same reason many countries are reluctant to use the death penalty - 95% of ppl are guilty and deserve it, but you simply cannot be sure that everyone is 100% guilty.
"But my little brother installed the hacks while I was on holidays" "Someone stole my wonid" How is it possible to get around problems like these?
Well, I think I might have the answer. It came to me while reading about the constellation program. It seems that Flayra has the ability to add custom icons to peoples wonids. Now my idea is this - what stands in the way of the NS team setting up a court system using icons as punishments?
Fair minded "magistrates" are appointed, with the job of reviewing demos and screenshots of wonids of cheaters/antisocial players. They are then either declared innocent, suspicious, or guilty. A guilty player is then "Tarred and Feathered", his wonid is assigned the appropriate icon, and for the next say three months, he has an icon that allows players and admins to immediately recognise him as a troublemaker, and keep their eye on him.
If, at the end of the assigned period, he has not reoffended, the icon is removed. Should he reoffend in the assigned period, the icon is upgraded to a repeat offender icon. Three strikes and he is blacklisted. His icon marks him for immediate kick ban, and his wonid is universally available to admins on a cheaters database.
This style of system, imho, identifies troublesome players without taking unilateral banning action. Admins can easily keep an eye on them as they are clearly labeled, and players, when posting cheat demos on forums, have the added advantage of being able to point out that not only was he cheating, but he has been labeled as troublesome by the NS Justice Tribunal.
Thoughts? Opinions? Flames? OMG u stole my idea? Been suggested before and shot down? Please reply below.
EDIT
The above post is from mid 2003. On the third page is a quite positive reply from Flayra. Normally, I dont necropost, but given all the talk of BUS.... you get the idea.
Comments
Sounds like more trouble than it's worth. I hate cheaters as much as the next guy but you're asking for trouble with a group like that.
Let the server admins handle it. Does an admin need proof of a cheater to ban him? I suppose proof would be nice but I don't think it's absolutely necessary.
There are plenty of server admins doing an excellent job out there. And when they aren't, just find another server.
Sounds like an ideal solution, yes. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Sounds like more trouble than it's worth. I hate cheaters as much as the next guy but you're asking for trouble with a group like that.
Let the server admins handle it. Does an admin need proof of a cheater to ban him? I suppose proof would be nice but I don't think it's absolutely necessary.
There are plenty of server admins doing an excellent job out there. And when they aren't, just find another server. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Spooge, you sound like a lucky man who plays on a select few servers heavily and fairly policed. You also probably play in a country with a plethora of servers to choose from. Some of us do not have that luxury. Some companies have over 50 servers dedicated to halflife mods. They simply cannot police them all. They rely upon players taking screenshots and demos of cheaters and posting them on forums where they are reviewed and banned. Having an icon beside them would help everyone no end.
Does an admin need proof of a cheater to ban him? YES! Yes he does. You simply cannot work off a "I think you're cheating, either that or you're really good - still, your banned, goodbye". Thats unfair and nearly everyone is going to be unhappy with that.
Spooge, a lot of people playing NS these days are refugees from the CS cheating epidemic. We worry about cheaters - they can send games to hell. There is no cure (even the highly recommended "Cut off their genitals with a plastic knife" has faults <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->) but this will certainly help.
Which clan would like to see their leader with two strikes to his name? This also encourages players to take demos of cheaters - these jerks are followed from server to server with the "Finger of Justice" pointed squarely at them.
after a week each black mark would expire so over a period of time you could get rid of your bad name.
PlayerA joins server1,
server1 queries database,
database reports 2 black marks against playerA.
PlayerA uses cheat and gets banned by admin,
Server1 reports ban to central database,
PlayerA joins server2
Server2 queries database
database reports 3 black marks against PlayerA
Server adds 'griefer/cheater' icon to playerA
one week after 1st point was given it's deducted
PlayerA now has 2 opints
etc. etc.
I guess you may need a way of removing points for people who were accidentally banned... and thinking about it, you'd want some way of authourising servers so you couldnb't hack the database... <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> someone would have to pay for the system too... tricky
Sounds like an ideal solution, yes. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unfortunatly Maus, yes he does. And feel really sorry for the poor dog - but at least the icon will leave eventually. If he stays on his best behaviour and ensures those hacks that magically found their way onto his computer never re-occur, then when the icon disappears hopefully he will be forgiven.
Either way it beats a universal ban, and frankly I would hope that this Tribunal would demand a pretty high standard of proof. Its not a perfect solution, this is justice we're talkin bout here - its always possible you actually were framed - but I think the tradeoff is worth it.
I think there is no fast solution to the cheating phenomena today. What we all need to do is to not join their legion of lameness. Have never used a cheat and will never use a cheat. Maybe a universal ban would've been more appropriate if there was a system that subjects the players HDD to a cheat scan. I really don't know. Interesting idea tho but I still think there are many problems with it.
My idea is based around what appearently is already working technology (adding icons to wonids) and a small core of trusted ns judges. They dont themselves actually have the power to ban you as such. If you are caught three times cheating then they have the ability to blacklist you - and make sure that everyone in every game you ever plays knows that you have been blacklisted. If I was a cheater that is a HELL of a lot scarier than getting banned from one server.
Suddenly you cant join clans anymore cause everyone knows ur a cheat. You are abused and banned at every server you go to - you have to go and buy HL again for a new wonid. Hopefully by this stage you will have learned ur lesson.
There are cheater banlists.
Cheating Death works a lot better then the author of this thread insinuates.
Any suggestion such as this will meana huge and very subjective amount of work that will have to be done by someone. Unless you pay someone you won't get anyone good and objective enough, and you can't pay.
VAC works, but not 100% yet.
CD works at almost 100%, it just doesn't 'punish'
Admins and shared ban lists work.
The majority of servers will always be badly run and infested by lamers and/or cheaters. You solve it by not playing there.
Ps. CoFR has a banlist of 18.000+ wonids that are banned from all CoFRs HL servers.
I think there is no fast solution to the cheating phenomena today. What we all need to do is to not join their legion of lameness. Have never used a cheat and will never use a cheat. Maybe a universal ban would've been more appropriate if there was a system that subjects the players HDD to a cheat scan. I really don't know. Interesting idea tho but I still think there are many problems with it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tsakaroth the people judging you will not be the local admin. They will be respected and long time members of the NS community. It will not just be the one person either - I believe that three magistrates each with veto power all viewing the same demo should be able to narrow the marin for error down to nearly zero.
Its not just being reported man, its people taking demos, screenshotting your wonid, providing these independant judges with SOLID evidence that what you're doing is dodgy. It wont be some guy havin a quick look "WTH BS NO CAN GET THREE HS IN A ROW" and then taggin u - they will follow process.
Im talking ONLY ns here too - no way in hell would i consider trying to sort out the CS cheat problem. Thats gone too far for anyone to handle I believe. Lets stick to NS, take preventative action, and ensure that cheating never becomes a major problem for us. If my idea was implemented, I believe it would be a step in the right direction.
Sounds like an ideal solution, yes. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The icon thing sounds discriminating indeed. What we could have is an automatic notice to the admin whenever a suspicious player enters his/her server. The said player wouldn't be even aware of this , so the judges wouldn't notice a sudden behavior change and imagine the player seeks redemption or something. Cheaters and ragers wouldn't receive any other warning than the usual server notice , so that any admin could accumulate evidence for a while , then directly apply the punishment on the unsuspecting lamer.
I am a BIG fan of C-D, dont get me wrong, the problem is that it only protects the servers that carry it. Like nuclear waste - you dont want it to harm ur pop you simply put it in another nation and let it harm their pop. Channel the cheaters into other servers - not exactly what I would call a long term solution....
I realise that VAC has worldwide bans, I also realise that VAC is seldom updated and often hacked within days of being released.
Shared ban lists do work, but they are far less fair then centralised Justice. Your little brother starts mucking around on the admins "that day of the month" and suddenly your banned from the 40 best servers. If it was up to me I'd rather have a little icon...
I refuse to simply throw off the majority of servers as being a lama/cheater fest. That seems defeatist to me.
Personally, I see exactely one working counter to cheaters: A swift, commentless kick.
Stakhanov I think you're missing the central thrust of my idea. I am not on a cheater bagging expedition. Cheaters get banned all the time. Its the UNIVERSAL STIGMA. You have been deemed a cheat by three upstanding members of the community who have never played you and have nothing against you personaly, but are convinced beyond resonable doubt that you cheated.
It wont matter what server you go on, whether the admin is there or not - everyone will know what you did.
Feel like displaying clan tags now? Not this little black duck...
Having an automatic noticed displayed to the admin is fine, but that again relies on someone having to code that into the game - the icons are already coded in.
Personally, I see exactely one working counter to cheaters: A swift, commentless kick. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Really? Its that easy?
Bugger... there goes this idea.... curses i thought i was onto something here....
I think the *idea* behind this is ok, or rather, the intent. It's just never going to happen. I'm not defeatist(sp?) when I say that because I have no problem with it. I don't mind that the majority of servers are cess pools, it doesn't bother me at all. I think that 90% at least of the human population are complete idiots that I don't want to have anything to do with but they need a place too. That's where the majority of public servers come in.
If you want a good and cheat-free game with mature and funny people that are a delight to play with, you either find or create a server/community for them. You don't go trying to make all the servers in the world fit that description.
I don't like pimping CoFR but maybe you should check out our forums:
www.cofr.net (general forum)
www.cofrfps.com (NS forum)
Which is odd, since I've never downloaded a cheat (even out of curiosity) in my entire life, to avoid precisely this kind of thing occuring.
So I have to say that this kind of thing is a nice idea, but fairly hard to make work properly.
The best way to combat cheats is numerous, fair admins, and for people to shut the **** up if they don't have proof if someone is cheating. I've been accused of cheating on several occasions, specifically whilst using an unzoomed sniper rifle in DoD and could easily have been banned by some inexperienced admin.
Fortunately, NS seems to have one further defence against cheats. Most servers have regular and dedicated players, with hard working admins. Any new cheats usually seem to be easily found out. So if you really want to help combat cheats, help fund a server or set up your own, or volunteer to be an admin.
One further thing about the above suggestion...
If you start banning or blacklisting people, you have to be 100% sure if you are doing it at an official level. Otherwise some fat emotional cripple in the States will sue your arse off for defamation of character and emotional damages i.e. crying too much to stuff another cheeseburger in his fat maw.
Mmmm. Cheeseburgers...
***Grendel wanders off looking for food...***
To Grendel - I know about the whole American sueing phenomenon, but one thing I have noticed is that the Justice system and lawmakers are generally uninterested in all things to do with gaming. Has any admin ever been sued for banning someone? I think not, and if you were, at least you could meet that @)#&$()&* you banned face to face and have a chance to apply the afformentioned genitalia removal.
wanders off looking for food...*** <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
They wouldn't have a legal leg to stand on.
While trying to establish a healthy gaming community is great and all - you're still promoting the "not in my back yard" attitude. Just because you throw your garbage over the fence doesnt mean the garbage is gone, you've just stopped it from being your problem. I was hoping that my idea would be a way of helping everyone.
If people set examples, others follow.
And you're choosing the "I'm going to clean up your back yard" attitude.
If all the server admins had my attitude, there wouldn't be any "back yards" to clean up. Your magical "3 magistrates" are going to clean up everyone's servers but you can't handle a local few? Unrealistic is too futile a description.
If you think something like this can't be done, look at BlueYounder
They have a sytem exactly like this.
The Admin (officer) reports an offenerder, depending on the crime (explotes, swearing, Cheater, Haxs) he is either warned, baned for a day, a week or how ever long, or he is Banned, if they catch him under a new WON, he IP banned and WOn banned from all BY servers and everything, this would ruin his gamming life.
I think the Justice Squad is a great Idea. The server Admins and Mods would police there own server but there would be a group of supream Admins who could police servers for the Admins.
I love this Idea, I know I am sick of telling people not to use explotes and Haxs when they are cought and I never want NS to turn into CS!
I HATE CS!
I hate it
<!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Furthermore, I wouldn't be comfortable with the power your "magistrates" possess. Nobody here is trustworthy enough to deserve that kind of power.
But everyone does NOT have your attitude, nor your dedication. So there ARE backyards to clean up, and you have absolutely no suggestions of how to help them. In fact, you dont even care - you got ur good server (who knows, maybe you are the admin) so sod everyone else eh. Spooge what you suggest is tried and tested methods of protecting single servers, but I'm trying to aim for something a little more general. The magical three magistrates (or whatever you want to call them) are not going to clean up anyones backyard. They are simply going to provide a very powerful deterent for cheaters, namely in identifying them to the community.
A small handful of locally policed servers are fine and dandy. You get those in CS too - yet its gaming community is fighting a cheating epidemic. I cant manage a small handful of local servers because they can only combat llamas on a small scale. Taking it large WILL be far more effective and waaaayyy more beneficial for the NS community in its entirety.
And Tweks - I am completely comfortable with a panel of respected members of the NS community having that power. If they run it in conjunction with the NS team I can see only good things coming from it.