<!--QuoteBegin--JoltGris+Jul 12 2003, 08:25 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (JoltGris @ Jul 12 2003, 08:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If the database is controled by admins from NS servers.... what about the evil admins? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It is NOT controlled by server admins. It is controlled by people that are completely separate - selected people. They havent played you in game, they dont actually have their own servers, and they are not just anyone.
Evil admins will have exactly the same power as the average player. They can take a demo and present it to the Justice Tribunal. They will be treated exactly the same as everyone else.
Ok, I read the first page, and I have some sort of an idea.
Why not just have a web page that is automatically updated evey time a person is banned? It puts their wonid on the site and admins can have a program, like cheating death, that checks this list every day. If there is a change in it, they download the new update, and all those wonids are banned.
I do feel sorry for the 5%...and thats still unfair. Thats why I think now is why we should just have more admins. There is no way to have complete security on there. Heck your best friend could be a hacker, and you wouldnt know it. Go to a server with admins, and thats it. Dont go to some nameless public where there are hackers galor, and have a vote kick option or something. Most of the time, a good admin can just <i>tell</i> if the person is trying to hide an aimbot/wall hacker.
Your idea is great. but that 5% can still make it through. One problem with this is the <i>quality</i> of the server you play on. If there are a bunch of not-that-great players on it, and your starting to get accused of hacking, <b>leave</b>. Its only going to go downhill from there, and they are not on your skill level. If there is a better server that you find where everyone is on the same skill level your safe. Other thing you can do is become a reg, and be trusted. So I guess there really is no way to catch all the cheaters, but at least we can catch 95% of them.
Great idea, I'm all for it. But I will come to your house, if this gets enabled, and if I'm accused of hacking, five times...with a knife...
<!--QuoteBegin--#Ha.Ze-+Jul 12 2003, 08:49 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (#Ha.Ze- @ Jul 12 2003, 08:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Great idea, I'm all for it. But I will come to your house, if this gets enabled, and if I'm accused of hacking, five times...with a knife... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> /stands up, walks to door, peers out, nervously starts on the 13 deadlocks....
Im all for the ban list - that would be great. And I'm all for admined servers, they really help. But what I think is the added beauty of my idea is the stigma, humiliation, the IDENTIFICATION of who you are and what you have done, no matter where you go - its open season on YOU!
As for the fairness of the system - have no doubt. If three long time players independantly review a demo of you playing and are convinced you are cheating (not just an insanely good shot, but deathspirals, tracking throu walls etc) then I am willing to believe em.
Great ideas here. This is a very difficult problem to solve.
I like your basic idea, and it wouldn't be too hard (technically) to set up. I think it would work great, and it fits very nicely into the social ideals of NS as well. The hard part here would be setting up an interface for admins to be able to cast their vote, but without letting the average Joe cast votes against someone they don't like. Of course, any player can set up a dedicated server easily, so this distinction isn't simple. The Devs and PTs have talked about setting up an "official" server ring, where they are invited into the group after operating for a certain amount of time, and showing that they support NS community ideals. If this was functional, I could see allowing voting for just these ops, and the system working well. In any case, this sounds like something to revisit when there isn't so much important other work to be done.
Don't be too down on VAC and CD, they are both constantly in development, and as far as I can tell, rumors of their faults have been greatly exaggerated (as is the prevalence of cheating).
One thing I'd really like to implement one say, is a general policing task force. Players could "call the cops" while playing, much like they can eject the commander. If a certain percentage of people "call the cops" within a certain time, an APB goes out. This could go to an IRC channel, it could send e-mail, post a news post on a central web site, update a database, etc. The important thing is that there is a group of trusted individuals who are ready to respond. They see the incoming message, then they click it to join the server. They then spectate, and watch to see what's happening. They then would have the power to kick out or reprimand a player, if they were being abusive or were apparently cheating.
This system depends on having a trusted group of dedicated "police" (with a special icon), with authorization to kick people from any server participating in the program (probably via a server side variable, mp_police 1 or something). Potential downfalls include abusive police, and the fact that people can change their behavior after the vote succeeds and they see a police person joining the server. I really like the concept of this type of organization though, where a larger able-bodied group can help a whole group of servers.
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> Wow I really Like that idea Flayra sounds good to me,and maybe who knows maybe ya might find some peeps to set this thing up or something.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
[poor joke]AHH the NS police are here, quick hide the gorges![/poor joke]
In all seriousness it would be a very big job. And the biggest question is what type of power would these players get exactly. If it was a real administrative power of sometype there would eb a real potential for abuse, but if it was a implied power, enforcement might become an issue. A combination of policemen(and policewomen) who only observe but report incidents to a centralized database would be the best solution in my opinion. Someone whould have to be pretty dedicated against cheating to run such a database though. I haven't had much trouble with cheaters, but I do play on a few select servers that have diligent admins and/or CD. I am one of the lucky ones.
Well I'll be damned - my first post from Flayra which doesnt end with:
****WELDED**** ... and read the Forum Rules before posting again
but I digress...
I understand it would be difficult to set up, and much easier in the mind than in the implementation. I think that the police idea would augment my idea perfectly - which policeman/policewoman wouldnt kill to be able to see a little icon hanging over someones head with their rap sheet written on it?
But again I must stress that the people doing the judges are NOT simply admins. It isnt just anyone who runs a server can vote - its chosen, carefully selected people. People that the community knows and trusts. Maybe a few of the Playtesters - Sirius and Martigen to name a few. Perhaps MonsE if he could ever find the time. And to become a justice administrator would require an invite only that would have to be accepted by all the justice admins. So the average Joe ISNT casting his vote - he doesnt have one. Only certain selected and approved people do.
If things start to get out of hand with the justice admins - make them answerable to yourself. NS is yours, so everyone would trust your judgement in the selection of justice admins.
And as for the prevalence of cheating - Im with you all the way there. I swear the half the cheat accusations in CS are pure bs - but that doesnt matter. Thinking you are playing with a cheat, suspecting everyone, being accused of cheating - it really detracts from the game. The people only have to THINK there are cheaters everywhere and they will SEE cheaters everywhere. An idea like police or justice admins would really help to allay the fears of the mob <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Flayra+Jul 12 2003, 12:25 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flayra @ Jul 12 2003, 12:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Great ideas here. This is a very difficult problem to solve.
I like your basic idea, and it wouldn't be too hard (technically) to set up. I think it would work great, and it fits very nicely into the social ideals of NS as well. The hard part here would be setting up an interface for admins to be able to cast their vote, but without letting the average Joe cast votes against someone they don't like. Of course, any player can set up a dedicated server easily, so this distinction isn't simple. The Devs and PTs have talked about setting up an "official" server ring, where they are invited into the group after operating for a certain amount of time, and showing that they support NS community ideals. If this was functional, I could see allowing voting for just these ops, and the system working well. In any case, this sounds like something to revisit when there isn't so much important other work to be done.
Don't be too down on VAC and CD, they are both constantly in development, and as far as I can tell, rumors of their faults have been greatly exaggerated (as is the prevalence of cheating).
One thing I'd really like to implement one say, is a general policing task force. Players could "call the cops" while playing, much like they can eject the commander. If a certain percentage of people "call the cops" within a certain time, an APB goes out. This could go to an IRC channel, it could send e-mail, post a news post on a central web site, update a database, etc. The important thing is that there is a group of trusted individuals who are ready to respond. They see the incoming message, then they click it to join the server. They then spectate, and watch to see what's happening. They then would have the power to kick out or reprimand a player, if they were being abusive or were apparently cheating.
This system depends on having a trusted group of dedicated "police" (with a special icon), with authorization to kick people from any server participating in the program (probably via a server side variable, mp_police 1 or something). Potential downfalls include abusive police, and the fact that people can change their behavior after the vote succeeds and they see a police person joining the server. I really like the concept of this type of organization though, where a larger able-bodied group can help a whole group of servers. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> depends how much of this you want to hard code into NS, Flayra. server operators are understandably reticent to install plugins that send data off-network. if you wanted to build a function into the GUI that sends a message to someone somewhere then that's cool, but a lot of server admin teams, such as the one i am a part of, use their own adminmod h4x to perform similar functions. we have a bot that announces player details if a player names themselves admin_needed. bleeps til you accept the call. works for AFKers too (because they get negative scores)
if you wanted to offer a quick solution to this kind of problem then you could perhaps ask one of your community folk to assemble an "admin pack" full of adminmod and AMX functions approved by the team. server ops will not take kindly to a pan-server "police force" throwing their weight around, even if it is approved by NS developers.
again, forming a "council" or association of server ops is a noble concept, but should be about sharing information, and nothing else. frankly, i don't trust the judgement of many admins, and quite recently witnessed the head admin of a rather large european GSP banning someone for cheating because one of their regular players accused this guy, and he changed his name to "OGC" to take the mick.
By all means, a sanctioned database of offences would be commendable (take a look at <a href='http://sad.blueyonder.biz' target='_blank'>BYGames</a> for inspiration), but calling some "G-man" to a server with a dedicated admin team? thanks, but no thanks, we know what we're doing.
These sorts of schemes in my expierience never work. For a week or two maybe ... but long term not a chance. It's so open to abuse and mistakes. The best solution for players is to simply find a few servers that have decent admin standards and stick to playing on them.
I for one wouldn't ever authorise a ban on someone else's say so.
I was thinking of something similar, but working the opposite way.
Instead of punishing bad players, reward good players somehow.
For example. Your a regular on server A. You help the gorge out, go easy on the new guys and help them out too, you build, backup your team mates, crack a good joke every now and then, etc etc. The admin, seeing your good behaviour could "Promote" you from blank to red, red to white, white to green, and finally green to blue (Blank being random, red being a good player, white being an exemplary player, green being a great player, and blue being the best of the best).
This goes to a central database where your "Rank" will follow you where you go.
There would have to be several things that go with this. For example, bad behaviour could be punished with demotion. To prevent it being abused, only one promotion or demotion can be delt out per week/month, so a bad admin could at the very worst lower your rank one level and never below blank.
The only major problem I can see is that it relies heavily on admin prescence and attitude, but I'd trust that people would stick to servers where the admins were ok.
Final note, when a player is promoted or demoted by an admin in game, the words "Player XYZ has been promoted to Green" would appear, and a small coloured bar near their name on the scoreboard would change to reflect the fact.
Just a nice little cookie for those that play good for once <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
cheaters have an almost unlimited supply of CD-Keys as CD-keys of known cheaters only get banned locally, not global. For example a known cheater from USA exchanges his already banned keys with someone from Europe (yes that happens). As soon as CD keys start getting banned world-wide, they'll run out of keys very soon <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->.
<!--QuoteBegin--Cronos+Jul 13 2003, 09:21 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cronos @ Jul 13 2003, 09:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I was thinking of something similar, but working the opposite way.
Instead of punishing bad players, reward good players somehow.
For example. Your a regular on server A. You help the gorge out, go easy on the new guys and help them out too, you build, backup your team mates, crack a good joke every now and then, etc etc. The admin, seeing your good behaviour could "Promote" you from blank to red, red to white, white to green, and finally green to blue (Blank being random, red being a good player, white being an exemplary player, green being a great player, and blue being the best of the best).
This goes to a central database where your "Rank" will follow you where you go.
There would have to be several things that go with this. For example, bad behaviour could be punished with demotion. To prevent it being abused, only one promotion or demotion can be delt out per week/month, so a bad admin could at the very worst lower your rank one level and never below blank.
The only major problem I can see is that it relies heavily on admin prescence and attitude, but I'd trust that people would stick to servers where the admins were ok.
Final note, when a player is promoted or demoted by an admin in game, the words "Player XYZ has been promoted to Green" would appear, and a small coloured bar near their name on the scoreboard would change to reflect the fact.
Just a nice little cookie for those that play good for once <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> we're already running a programme like this for BYNS regulars, it's called the "Veterans" programme (sorry, it kinda got dreamed up before we were aware of the NS playetster "vets").
the basic premise is, we have identified players who are selected on the basis of being nice chaps and chapesses, being very helpful to newcomers and being able to observe our server rules. they agree to adhere to our code of conduct to the letter, as well as help to maintain the servers according to our standard, using things like votekick, votemap, etc. any infractions of our rules by the Vets earns extreme punishment.
of course they need low level adminmod access to do that, so we give it to them. that also means we can protect their identifier tag, [BYNS], too. they are rewarded with a 90 mins booked server donated by our head admin every sunday, where they can let their hair down, and play super-competitive gamestyles.
it's a roaring success, and is proving very beneficial to out server community too. it also gives us an opportunity to vet potential admin candidates.
Marine01, I really don't like your giant socialistic type idea at all.
Why? Way too many problems with it. Remember, cheaters are good at one thing above all else:
- Exploiting a given system.
A hack on HL is just that, it exploits the way HL handles it's client to server side code.
Now, on your system, lets see how I could exploit it. (Keep in mind I'm not some master exploiter)
Change my WonID! Not hard, I'll just shell out 10 bucks at some store for another copy of HL, which will then be used to hack on another server where I won't have a blacklist on me. Then, the admin will send a demo or whatnot, and some poor sap sitting on his comp can watch an incredibly boring demo where he eventually sees me cheating, and slaps on the blacklist. He spends around 20 min to my measly 10$. Cheaters could get around this system so easily it won't even be funny.
Next way to see how this could be abused:
"Hey, I've got this funny icon next to my name, but I swear I've never cheated!" Admin: "Are you sure?" "Yeah, besides, just type in 'status' in console, look at my score, it sucks! How could I be a cheater?" Admin: "Well, okay, besides, I don't really trust the guys who hand out those funny icons anyhow."
The problem here is personal politics, as well as stupid admins who fall for players that manage to dodge a blacklisting.
Also, wouldn't it be better if everyone managed to keep their own server clean? That way, it wouldn't require a giant **** task force tribunal to deal with cheaters?
You may say: "Oh, well the good servers will be good but the bad ones will suffer."
News to you pal: It's their server. If they want to run it into the ground, then by all means, let them. Let people handle their own buisness. Big programs like the ones you suggest only manage to hurt the innocent, yet the real criminals will find a way right around the entire thing.
In reality, your system would only work on catching bad cheaters, and also managing to nail those 5% who really don't cheat, but are good players.
What do I mean by bad cheaters? Cheaters who are so dumb they never get more than one CD key, and they also make sure they walk into all the good servers while they are blacklisted. These 'bad' cheaters are also the types of people who are blatent cheaters, anyone could spot them a mile away.
On the other hand, good cheaters could dodge this system in the blink of an eye, while those poor saps who review all the demos continally find blantant cheaters on 100's of demos, and a couple of poor souls will get the blacklist. The tribunal members will spends 100's of hours which in the end will be futile, as good hackers will continue to rampage as they do while bad hackers will learn and adapt. No thanks.
The police system Flayra spoke of also has it's problems. For one, all the criminal has to do is stop cheating when he's knows everyone on his team says:
"GUYS CALL THE COPS!"
It won't even matter if the cop is undercover or not. Also, if no cops are around, then that server is screwed. Also, I see this system being abused by people who storm an empty server, call the cops, and when one arrives, they all leave.
Anyhow, I think that if all servers installed CD, and had relativily good admins there, then this would solve all cheater problems. I know hackers can get around CD, but they must be REALLY good, and this is where the admin comes in, he should be able to tell if a person is hacking around CD or not.
Llama problems are far more serious than cheater problems, however, and they are only fixable by admins.
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> Wow some many great ideas! Many of these will/can work for sure and that will lower the amount of cheaters definitely....
But it will never wipe them out. For every right there is a wrong and vice versa, people will have their personal agendas and others enjoy just plain torturing people. If they are smart and determined enough then they will beat the system. Any number of reasons could explain why they would want to. Fact is if you want something hard enough and work for it, you will get it.
There is no perfect system, but you guys have got the right ideas for sure......
Where ever someone goes, others will follow........ and keep up the good work! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I believe that this is a very good and incredibly unique idea. However, it would probably delay the release of the next version because of the complexity. This would also probably cause a lot of lag, because each time a person joins a server, they'll have to go into a database to get information, and the database would have to be organized and efficient as crap. And, because we all know NS is so very popular, the database would continue to grow, causing even slower results because there would be more information to search through. Magnetic data can only be so fast... You'd need like... a Cray supercomputer as the database.... Yeah...
Anyway, despite the originality and 'goodness' of this idea, I have to say that if a server isn't run by a good admin who can't check regularly if people are complaining about someone and administer the appropriate action, then the server will crash and burn. I say let them do what they want...
Wow, I typed more than I expected. I'm going to go now...
i'd like to see multiple anti-cheat programs that are compatable with eachother so you can run like, 4 anti-cheat programs at once. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
maybe if you pass/fail CD and/or VAC it would instantly put the cheater icon onto your wonid. it'd always check if you passed or failed it, so if you try to connect, play, then turn on your cheats it'd still put the icon next to you. your wonid would be transmited to the server database and stored for 2 weeks, so that durring those two weeks you can be banned from as many servers as you go to.
servers can use a plugin to detect weather or not the player has the "cheater" icon on their wonid, and then just kick/ban them with a message (OMG TURN OFF H4X, NUB! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> ); thus some servers you can come in with your cheat icon and be harassed and banned as soon as the admin likes to, or can be kicked/banned outright while you connect to the server.
IMO its easier to have a global list of known heats than a anti-cheat program. you use a known cheat program you dont try to stop it; you put them at the mercy of people (which can be FAR crueller <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> ) since you have this little icon saying "YOU HAX!" everywhere you go.
basically as long as the .exe remains on your hard drive you'll have that icon. it shouldn't matter if its active; <i>it should detect it anyways.</i> -edit- it would also give a directory of where the file is, so you can delete it if someone's been using your HL and you dont want to get kicked/banned automatically or be ridicueled.
Okies, first up Folorn - plenty of good points there mate.
Its true, you will NEVER be able to stop the dedicated cheater. He will pay cash, swap won ids with other cheaters, do whatever it takes to go undetected and keep playing and cheating. However he is in the vast MINORITY. Have a look at any cheating website - www.cshacked.com to name one. Have a look in the forums. They are CHOCK full of nubs asking how to get the hacks working. They arent dedicated, hardlining filth - they just got issues.
So an idea like mine is a deterrant, and a bloody strong one as well - especially for clan players. They dont care if they change there name and get caught cheating on a Euro server, but if that little icon would follow em back to where ever they came from, they wouldnt try it.
A second good point you made - some poor sap having to sift through demo after demo. My heart goes out the poor ****, and I know it wont be me doing it....
But if the admin doesnt trust these ppl, well there is nothing that can be done about that. I think it would be strange that they didnt, especially if this justice system was set up in conjunction with the NS dev team.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->News to you pal: It's their server. If they want to run it into the ground, then by all means, let them<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again I'm with you there - if they want to run it into the ground go ahead. We cant make em run it properly. I'm not seeking to run their server for them - but I am going to make it a bloody sight easier for them to run.
"[abridged] these problems are only really solvable by admins" Once again I'm right behind you there - admins are by far the greatest defence against cheaters and antisocial players and my system cant come close to the protection they provide. It is only a means of deterance and identification of troublemakers - that can only be a bonus for everyone concerned, unless you happen to be cheating.
To Maverick - put not your faith in machines and programs. Earlier in this thread Grendel (the leader of the playtesters) said he recieved a 24 hour VAC ban and he has no idea why. These things are fallible, and any sort of auto ban or icon based on such things are going to nail hordes of innocents.
Thats why in the age of computers the courts are managed by humans - we can reason. That is also another strength that I see in my justice system. Impartial humans making the judgements.
TO THE NUBS OF THE NS COMMUNITY - LET ME MAKE THIS ABUNDANTLY CLEAR, LET THERE BE NO MISTAKE. Listening? GOOD. They would NEVER tar and feather you for being a good shot or merely being skilled. NEVER YOU HEAR ME ****. If some fool posts saying "but what if i wasnt cheating and i got banned" I am going to be REALLY angry. You can pick cheats by things like maintaining tracking on multiple skulks whilst zooming straight past them with a jp on, death spirals - things that couldnt possibly happen without the help of hacks. Killing 4 skulks with ur lmg and then getting the 5th with ur pistol is NOT going to get you banned, unless they attacked simultaneously from all different directions. The people judging you will NOT be n00bs, and they wont blacklist you offhand, they will have high standards of proof.
SpoogeThunderbolt missile in your cheeriosJoin Date: 2002-01-25Member: 67Members
Once again you're assuming that the only people who should be worried about this system are the cheaters. What about the low life slags who run around reporting anyone and everyone who pwns them in a game? What happens when the "review board" gets so flooded with demos that they can't keep up? Some punk with a chip on his shoulder decides he'll report everyone on a server because they called him a "noob" and now this oversight team is viewing worthless demos until their eyes pop out.
I can actually visualise this happening....... Hrrrrrmmmmm how to stop the flood if someone decides to be a tosser as someone invariably will.....
I was going to suggest that you would have to supply your own wonid if you wanted to report someone and if you kept annoying the oversight ppl they could tar you, but its easy to supply then with some other poor sods wonid and get him to take it up the rear instead.
Well this one has got me flummoxed.... Anyone have any idea how you could prevent this? Have a site running demo editing tutorials, refusing to view any demo over five minutes in length. Before you post a demo you have to edit it so only the part that you think is cheating is included?
Hrrrmmmm....
Oh, and btw - the server admins can handle it? Really? Tell that to the CS community - the admins are trying but its still urinating everyone off no end.
Even though I sympathise with the intent I'm going to bow out here because frankly I don't think it is realistic. Having a cluster of the best servers share banlist etc would be a realistic idea but "cleaning up" the worlds servers isn't going to happen. I also hope no "cheater icon" is introduced other then to identify people caught by VAC or simmilar programs during their reliable phases.
Well Stoneburg I can understand you not thinking its realistic. It would require a hell of a lot of work that I honestly dont believe the NS team has the time to get their teeth into. And thats just to set it up, too run it would be harder still.
And please - dont think I'm trying to clean the worlds servers. I am talking ONLY NS servers here - and all I'm suggesting is a method of identifying you if you are caught cheating. And it identifies you no matter where the hell you go. I really like the idea of that - but I too dont believe that its ever going to happen.
Blacklists only work for the "really bad" people, those who can instantly be identified as needing their internet connection shoved up their nose. For everyone else, you just get too much colateral damage. Someone could have stolen your cd key and used it to get your won id banned everywhere - which has happened in my experience - it's not nice. Also, The wonid system, allthough it works, is still flawed somewhat. Microsoft XP's anti-piracy system seems to have a good way of preventing piracy - kinda by uniquely identifying each "copy" of windows xp - Each "person"/"computer" has it's own code thing that cannot be changed without a great deal of effort. If a half-life anti-cheat thing was to work on a similar principle, there would be far less cheaters - people would stay banned.. The problem imo does not lie with the fact there are cheats - but the fact that the wonid system is flawed and breakable - a more permanent "tag" Imo is needed really for a sufficient anti-cheat effort.
SpoogeThunderbolt missile in your cheeriosJoin Date: 2002-01-25Member: 67Members
I can understand the frustration coming from a CS perspective. I stopped playing CS long ago and one of the major reasons was cheating.
However, NS is a completely different game. There are constant discussions regarding the value of a single player with explosive kill/death ratios against the value of team players. The real benefit of NS is that teamwork isn't preferred, it's required. One or even two lamers running around killing everything that moves doesn't necessarily equal a win. Not only that, but the driving players behind this game generally prefer to play the game as opposed to just getting the "win".
I can't speak well for clan matches as I'm not in a clan, but I have to assume that enough clan members out there have enough experience to recognize a cheater in a match. From what I know, there are already systems in place for most clan ladders to handle cheaters.
Everyone here likes to hear ways to improve their gaming experience, we just don't want someone inadvertantly ruining with good intentions.
To Beast - HEAR HEAR. The wonid system is serious flawed and I can only hope that HL2 has something a little bit more effective. Of course if someone deliberately sets out to ruin you by pinching your wonid then there is nothing that can stop them. I do, however, believe that my system would not make life any harder for you - theres nowhere to go once you've reached the bottom <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
To Spooge - Me too. I stopped playing CS cause of the cheats and the availability of better mods. I also stopped playing DoD because of the rifles - and eventually found NS. And I have to say that I think cheaters in NS cant really have the same effect as in cs. The effectiveness of a cheater in ruining everyones game is diminished as teamwork is still required. No aimbot is going to save you from an onos if you have a lvl 0 lmg. We dont have location specific damage so cheating probably will never reach CS levels.
I guess the only thing we disagree on is that I think my idea can only help - while you seem to believe (and correct me if im wrong) that it will cause more harm then good.
``<i>incomming transmission</i>`` <i>Transmission from TSA Security Administration</i> <i>Today we have taken a step toward making the United Systems a safer place to live, routing out the crime and helping out the Frontiersmen with there battles against the dreded Kharaa beasts. The Trans System Authority Security Counsel has implemented an order using emergency powers to appoint a new enforcement group to effectively route out the trouble makers and the criminals in the United Systems. These new enforcers will have the highest authority and can take charge of any systems local enforcement squad to enact a system wide reprimand aganist a known offender.
In this time of War with the Aliens known as Kharaa, most system law enforcement teams don't have the time or man power to uphold the laws and keep order whilst trying to secure their system from any possible Kharaa contamination. This new team of law officers known as "<b>The Enforcers</b> will be able to take care of trouble makers and uphold the laws of the system to ensure a safe place to live at all times. Any Criminals found in a Enforcer guarded system will be documented and will recieve a punisment fitting to the crime. Sever crimes will result in Baning from that system and this Ban will show up on the ID records of that person making it very difficult for him in any other system.
The Enforcers will continue to update the ID information data base with any new punishments issued, all systems will have access to this datebase to be able to check up the history of any member of the community who has had a punishment enacted towards them. Further more Cases can be presented to the Enforcer Commity to of any person being suspected of comminting a crime. Offenders will be identifyed by a Icon on there ID records which will show up at time of a security scan. Lesser offences will be show differently then more sever crimes. If an offender feels the Enforcers have been unjust, he can appeal his case to the Enforcer Commity. After a set amount of time the Icon on the ID records will be removed but a log of that person will be kept for records, repeat offenerders will be additonaly Punished with a TSA wide Banning of them, from any system under Enforcer Protection. These Criminals will not be allowed back to any of these systems.
The TSA is working hard to keep the peace in this time of chaos, we are looking out for your well being and we hope that the addition of "The Enforcers" will help bring a sense of Calm to the systems in this time of fear. The Enforcers won't be able to do their jobs with out the help of the Communities, and the People, do your part and report any crinimals to your local Security Moderator for your system. Together we can Rid our systems of known system hackers and exploiters and make the communities safe for hard working families again. Only if we all work together with the TSA can we rid the Systems of the Kharaa threat and we asure you that we one day will return all system to a Lawful safe place to live.</i>
<!--QuoteBegin--xdeathx2003+Jul 14 2003, 09:10 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (xdeathx2003 @ Jul 14 2003, 09:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ok, quiet down... you can't stop cheaters from cheating, regardless of some type of database... forget it, Flayra will put in what he wants.... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> *Negitive Nancy Alart* <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif'><!--endemo--> You seem to forget Flayra will add things the Community wants also! and He like the inital Idea
Marine01, I thought about your idea long enough, and I came up with an improved version.
Here are the changes(which you should like a lot)
- IP's are handled, not WONIDS. You ban IP's, and you are screwed. This means Flayra would need to imput a system that doesn't put icons on your WONID, but your IP instead. This means a cheater can get 100 copys of HL, he won't do anything but help out Valve. Every server admin will know to ban this dude on contact, and by ban, I mean ban his IP. Also, while it is true IP's can be changed, it's far more trouble than it's worth in most instances.
- Only server admins or appointed officals may make and record demo's of llamas(people who exploit BIG TIME)/cheaters and send them to the tribunal. They will be given special acess to do so.
- The demo's may be no longer than 10 min, preferably shorter in most cases, and must clearly show that the person is doing something really bad. Also, inside of the demo the IP must be recorded.
- Admins get the option to turn off their little icon next to their name, so they can catch people while they think they aren't being monotored. Flayra would have to make this.
- Next, Flayra would have to make it so any admin or special appointed offical can during anytime of gameplay, request to the server a nice big display of the requested person's IP adress. This would be very helpful in making demos.
- Just to reiterate; the only people who send demos in for offical review are server admins, special appointed officials within the community, and of course, the judges themselves.
- Finnally, to ensure proper review, all demos must be reviewed by at <b>least</b> 2 judges. If any of the 2 judges feel that the demo deserves further review, it <b>must</b> get another view from another judge before any tags are handed out.
- The tag system should work like this:
o First offense: A little green icon next to your name which means first offense, and stays on you for one week. o Second offense: A little yellow icon next to your name which means second offense, and stays on you for two weeks. o Third offense: A little red icon next to your name which means third offense, and stays on you for three weeks. Getting the red tag is nearly a 1 month ban from NS. Ouch. Better not cheat.
If the above said system were to be in place, I really think this could work. Hopefully, the people making the demo's will keep it as short as possible, so that they will save time of the demo reviewers (and save their lives).
Marine01, I believe this system is 100% abuse proof, and would ensure what you wanted to happen would in fact happen. Please comment on this.
ZunniThe best thing to happen to I&S in a long whileJoin Date: 2002-11-26Member: 10016Members
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Don't be too down on VAC and CD, they are both constantly in development, and as far as I can tell, rumors of their faults have been greatly exaggerated (as is the prevalence of cheating).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No truer statement has EVER been said... I've seen 1 guy who I thought was cheating in the entire time I've been playing (too many hundreds of hours) and a quick demo of him proved otherwise.. he was just that good..
So, people are a little paranoid.. Cheater is a name that gets thrown around too freely...
Comments
It is NOT controlled by server admins. It is controlled by people that are completely separate - selected people. They havent played you in game, they dont actually have their own servers, and they are not just anyone.
Evil admins will have exactly the same power as the average player. They can take a demo and present it to the Justice Tribunal. They will be treated exactly the same as everyone else.
Why not just have a web page that is automatically updated evey time a person is banned? It puts their wonid on the site and admins can have a program, like cheating death, that checks this list every day. If there is a change in it, they download the new update, and all those wonids are banned.
I do feel sorry for the 5%...and thats still unfair. Thats why I think now is why we should just have more admins. There is no way to have complete security on there. Heck your best friend could be a hacker, and you wouldnt know it. Go to a server with admins, and thats it. Dont go to some nameless public where there are hackers galor, and have a vote kick option or something. Most of the time, a good admin can just <i>tell</i> if the person is trying to hide an aimbot/wall hacker.
Your idea is great. but that 5% can still make it through. One problem with this is the <i>quality</i> of the server you play on. If there are a bunch of not-that-great players on it, and your starting to get accused of hacking, <b>leave</b>. Its only going to go downhill from there, and they are not on your skill level. If there is a better server that you find where everyone is on the same skill level your safe. Other thing you can do is become a reg, and be trusted. So I guess there really is no way to catch all the cheaters, but at least we can catch 95% of them.
Great idea, I'm all for it. But I will come to your house, if this gets enabled, and if I'm accused of hacking, five times...with a knife...
/stands up, walks to door, peers out, nervously starts on the 13 deadlocks....
Im all for the ban list - that would be great. And I'm all for admined servers, they really help. But what I think is the added beauty of my idea is the stigma, humiliation, the IDENTIFICATION of who you are and what you have done, no matter where you go - its open season on YOU!
As for the fairness of the system - have no doubt. If three long time players independantly review a demo of you playing and are convinced you are cheating (not just an insanely good shot, but deathspirals, tracking throu walls etc) then I am willing to believe em.
I like your basic idea, and it wouldn't be too hard (technically) to set up. I think it would work great, and it fits very nicely into the social ideals of NS as well. The hard part here would be setting up an interface for admins to be able to cast their vote, but without letting the average Joe cast votes against someone they don't like. Of course, any player can set up a dedicated server easily, so this distinction isn't simple. The Devs and PTs have talked about setting up an "official" server ring, where they are invited into the group after operating for a certain amount of time, and showing that they support NS community ideals. If this was functional, I could see allowing voting for just these ops, and the system working well. In any case, this sounds like something to revisit when there isn't so much important other work to be done.
Don't be too down on VAC and CD, they are both constantly in development, and as far as I can tell, rumors of their faults have been greatly exaggerated (as is the prevalence of cheating).
One thing I'd really like to implement one say, is a general policing task force. Players could "call the cops" while playing, much like they can eject the commander. If a certain percentage of people "call the cops" within a certain time, an APB goes out. This could go to an IRC channel, it could send e-mail, post a news post on a central web site, update a database, etc. The important thing is that there is a group of trusted individuals who are ready to respond. They see the incoming message, then they click it to join the server. They then spectate, and watch to see what's happening. They then would have the power to kick out or reprimand a player, if they were being abusive or were apparently cheating.
This system depends on having a trusted group of dedicated "police" (with a special icon), with authorization to kick people from any server participating in the program (probably via a server side variable, mp_police 1 or something). Potential downfalls include abusive police, and the fact that people can change their behavior after the vote succeeds and they see a police person joining the server. I really like the concept of this type of organization though, where a larger able-bodied group can help a whole group of servers.
In all seriousness it would be a very big job. And the biggest question is what type of power would these players get exactly. If it was a real administrative power of sometype there would eb a real potential for abuse, but if it was a implied power, enforcement might become an issue. A combination of policemen(and policewomen) who only observe but report incidents to a centralized database would be the best solution in my opinion. Someone whould have to be pretty dedicated against cheating to run such a database though. I haven't had much trouble with cheaters, but I do play on a few select servers that have diligent admins and/or CD. I am one of the lucky ones.
****WELDED**** ... and read the Forum Rules before posting again
but I digress...
I understand it would be difficult to set up, and much easier in the mind than in the implementation. I think that the police idea would augment my idea perfectly - which policeman/policewoman wouldnt kill to be able to see a little icon hanging over someones head with their rap sheet written on it?
But again I must stress that the people doing the judges are NOT simply admins. It isnt just anyone who runs a server can vote - its chosen, carefully selected people. People that the community knows and trusts. Maybe a few of the Playtesters - Sirius and Martigen to name a few. Perhaps MonsE if he could ever find the time. And to become a justice administrator would require an invite only that would have to be accepted by all the justice admins. So the average Joe ISNT casting his vote - he doesnt have one. Only certain selected and approved people do.
If things start to get out of hand with the justice admins - make them answerable to yourself. NS is yours, so everyone would trust your judgement in the selection of justice admins.
And as for the prevalence of cheating - Im with you all the way there. I swear the half the cheat accusations in CS are pure bs - but that doesnt matter. Thinking you are playing with a cheat, suspecting everyone, being accused of cheating - it really detracts from the game. The people only have to THINK there are cheaters everywhere and they will SEE cheaters everywhere. An idea like police or justice admins would really help to allay the fears of the mob <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I like your basic idea, and it wouldn't be too hard (technically) to set up. I think it would work great, and it fits very nicely into the social ideals of NS as well. The hard part here would be setting up an interface for admins to be able to cast their vote, but without letting the average Joe cast votes against someone they don't like. Of course, any player can set up a dedicated server easily, so this distinction isn't simple. The Devs and PTs have talked about setting up an "official" server ring, where they are invited into the group after operating for a certain amount of time, and showing that they support NS community ideals. If this was functional, I could see allowing voting for just these ops, and the system working well. In any case, this sounds like something to revisit when there isn't so much important other work to be done.
Don't be too down on VAC and CD, they are both constantly in development, and as far as I can tell, rumors of their faults have been greatly exaggerated (as is the prevalence of cheating).
One thing I'd really like to implement one say, is a general policing task force. Players could "call the cops" while playing, much like they can eject the commander. If a certain percentage of people "call the cops" within a certain time, an APB goes out. This could go to an IRC channel, it could send e-mail, post a news post on a central web site, update a database, etc. The important thing is that there is a group of trusted individuals who are ready to respond. They see the incoming message, then they click it to join the server. They then spectate, and watch to see what's happening. They then would have the power to kick out or reprimand a player, if they were being abusive or were apparently cheating.
This system depends on having a trusted group of dedicated "police" (with a special icon), with authorization to kick people from any server participating in the program (probably via a server side variable, mp_police 1 or something). Potential downfalls include abusive police, and the fact that people can change their behavior after the vote succeeds and they see a police person joining the server. I really like the concept of this type of organization though, where a larger able-bodied group can help a whole group of servers. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
depends how much of this you want to hard code into NS, Flayra. server operators are understandably reticent to install plugins that send data off-network. if you wanted to build a function into the GUI that sends a message to someone somewhere then that's cool, but a lot of server admin teams, such as the one i am a part of, use their own adminmod h4x to perform similar functions. we have a bot that announces player details if a player names themselves admin_needed. bleeps til you accept the call. works for AFKers too (because they get negative scores)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->(22:47:55) (@eck) [No C-D]cHi_mAsTeR (score: -8) is on bygames.com Natural Selection v1.04 #03 (194.117.138.234:27015) (!got 86).
(22:48:00) (+[Elrond]) !got 86
(22:48:01) (@eck) Thanks [Elrond]!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
if you wanted to offer a quick solution to this kind of problem then you could perhaps ask one of your community folk to assemble an "admin pack" full of adminmod and AMX functions approved by the team. server ops will not take kindly to a pan-server "police force" throwing their weight around, even if it is approved by NS developers.
again, forming a "council" or association of server ops is a noble concept, but should be about sharing information, and nothing else. frankly, i don't trust the judgement of many admins, and quite recently witnessed the head admin of a rather large european GSP banning someone for cheating because one of their regular players accused this guy, and he changed his name to "OGC" to take the mick.
By all means, a sanctioned database of offences would be commendable (take a look at <a href='http://sad.blueyonder.biz' target='_blank'>BYGames</a> for inspiration), but calling some "G-man" to a server with a dedicated admin team? thanks, but no thanks, we know what we're doing.
I for one wouldn't ever authorise a ban on someone else's say so.
Instead of punishing bad players, reward good players somehow.
For example. Your a regular on server A. You help the gorge out, go easy on the new guys and help them out too, you build, backup your team mates, crack a good joke every now and then, etc etc. The admin, seeing your good behaviour could "Promote" you from blank to red, red to white, white to green, and finally green to blue (Blank being random, red being a good player, white being an exemplary player, green being a great player, and blue being the best of the best).
This goes to a central database where your "Rank" will follow you where you go.
There would have to be several things that go with this. For example, bad behaviour could be punished with demotion. To prevent it being abused, only one promotion or demotion can be delt out per week/month, so a bad admin could at the very worst lower your rank one level and never below blank.
The only major problem I can see is that it relies heavily on admin prescence and attitude, but I'd trust that people would stick to servers where the admins were ok.
Final note, when a player is promoted or demoted by an admin in game, the words "Player XYZ has been promoted to Green" would appear, and a small coloured bar near their name on the scoreboard would change to reflect the fact.
Just a nice little cookie for those that play good for once <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
cheaters have an almost unlimited supply of CD-Keys as CD-keys of known cheaters only get banned locally, not global. For example a known cheater from USA exchanges his already banned keys with someone from Europe (yes that happens). As soon as CD keys start getting banned world-wide, they'll run out of keys very soon <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->.
Instead of punishing bad players, reward good players somehow.
For example. Your a regular on server A. You help the gorge out, go easy on the new guys and help them out too, you build, backup your team mates, crack a good joke every now and then, etc etc. The admin, seeing your good behaviour could "Promote" you from blank to red, red to white, white to green, and finally green to blue (Blank being random, red being a good player, white being an exemplary player, green being a great player, and blue being the best of the best).
This goes to a central database where your "Rank" will follow you where you go.
There would have to be several things that go with this. For example, bad behaviour could be punished with demotion. To prevent it being abused, only one promotion or demotion can be delt out per week/month, so a bad admin could at the very worst lower your rank one level and never below blank.
The only major problem I can see is that it relies heavily on admin prescence and attitude, but I'd trust that people would stick to servers where the admins were ok.
Final note, when a player is promoted or demoted by an admin in game, the words "Player XYZ has been promoted to Green" would appear, and a small coloured bar near their name on the scoreboard would change to reflect the fact.
Just a nice little cookie for those that play good for once <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
we're already running a programme like this for BYNS regulars, it's called the "Veterans" programme (sorry, it kinda got dreamed up before we were aware of the NS playetster "vets").
the basic premise is, we have identified players who are selected on the basis of being nice chaps and chapesses, being very helpful to newcomers and being able to observe our server rules. they agree to adhere to our code of conduct to the letter, as well as help to maintain the servers according to our standard, using things like votekick, votemap, etc. any infractions of our rules by the Vets earns extreme punishment.
of course they need low level adminmod access to do that, so we give it to them. that also means we can protect their identifier tag, [BYNS], too. they are rewarded with a 90 mins booked server donated by our head admin every sunday, where they can let their hair down, and play super-competitive gamestyles.
it's a roaring success, and is proving very beneficial to out server community too. it also gives us an opportunity to vet potential admin candidates.
Why? Way too many problems with it. Remember, cheaters are good at one thing above all else:
- Exploiting a given system.
A hack on HL is just that, it exploits the way HL handles it's client to server side code.
Now, on your system, lets see how I could exploit it. (Keep in mind I'm not some master exploiter)
Change my WonID! Not hard, I'll just shell out 10 bucks at some store for another copy of HL, which will then be used to hack on another server where I won't have a blacklist on me. Then, the admin will send a demo or whatnot, and some poor sap sitting on his comp can watch an incredibly boring demo where he eventually sees me cheating, and slaps on the blacklist. He spends around 20 min to my measly 10$. Cheaters could get around this system so easily it won't even be funny.
Next way to see how this could be abused:
"Hey, I've got this funny icon next to my name, but I swear I've never cheated!"
Admin: "Are you sure?"
"Yeah, besides, just type in 'status' in console, look at my score, it sucks! How could I be a cheater?"
Admin: "Well, okay, besides, I don't really trust the guys who hand out those funny icons anyhow."
The problem here is personal politics, as well as stupid admins who fall for players that manage to dodge a blacklisting.
Also, wouldn't it be better if everyone managed to keep their own server clean? That way, it wouldn't require a giant **** task force tribunal to deal with cheaters?
You may say: "Oh, well the good servers will be good but the bad ones will suffer."
News to you pal: It's their server. If they want to run it into the ground, then by all means, let them. Let people handle their own buisness. Big programs like the ones you suggest only manage to hurt the innocent, yet the real criminals will find a way right around the entire thing.
In reality, your system would only work on catching bad cheaters, and also managing to nail those 5% who really don't cheat, but are good players.
What do I mean by bad cheaters? Cheaters who are so dumb they never get more than one CD key, and they also make sure they walk into all the good servers while they are blacklisted. These 'bad' cheaters are also the types of people who are blatent cheaters, anyone could spot them a mile away.
On the other hand, good cheaters could dodge this system in the blink of an eye, while those poor saps who review all the demos continally find blantant cheaters on 100's of demos, and a couple of poor souls will get the blacklist. The tribunal members will spends 100's of hours which in the end will be futile, as good hackers will continue to rampage as they do while bad hackers will learn and adapt. No thanks.
The police system Flayra spoke of also has it's problems. For one, all the criminal has to do is stop cheating when he's knows everyone on his team says:
"GUYS CALL THE COPS!"
It won't even matter if the cop is undercover or not. Also, if no cops are around, then that server is screwed. Also, I see this system being abused by people who storm an empty server, call the cops, and when one arrives, they all leave.
Anyhow, I think that if all servers installed CD, and had relativily good admins there, then this would solve all cheater problems. I know hackers can get around CD, but they must be REALLY good, and this is where the admin comes in, he should be able to tell if a person is hacking around CD or not.
Llama problems are far more serious than cheater problems, however, and they are only fixable by admins.
But it will never wipe them out. For every right there is a wrong and vice versa, people will have their personal agendas and others enjoy just plain torturing people. If they are smart and determined enough then they will beat the system. Any number of reasons could explain why they would want to. Fact is if you want something hard enough and work for it, you will get it.
There is no perfect system, but you guys have got the right ideas for sure......
Where ever someone goes, others will follow........ and keep up the good work! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Anyway, despite the originality and 'goodness' of this idea, I have to say that if a server isn't run by a good admin who can't check regularly if people are complaining about someone and administer the appropriate action, then the server will crash and burn. I say let them do what they want...
Wow, I typed more than I expected. I'm going to go now...
i'd like to see multiple anti-cheat programs that are compatable with eachother so you can run like, 4 anti-cheat programs at once. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
maybe if you pass/fail CD and/or VAC it would instantly put the cheater icon onto your wonid. it'd always check if you passed or failed it, so if you try to connect, play, then turn on your cheats it'd still put the icon next to you. your wonid would be transmited to the server database and stored for 2 weeks, so that durring those two weeks you can be banned from as many servers as you go to.
servers can use a plugin to detect weather or not the player has the "cheater" icon on their wonid, and then just kick/ban them with a message (OMG TURN OFF H4X, NUB! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> ); thus some servers you can come in with your cheat icon and be harassed and banned as soon as the admin likes to, or can be kicked/banned outright while you connect to the server.
IMO its easier to have a global list of known heats than a anti-cheat program. you use a known cheat program you dont try to stop it; you put them at the mercy of people (which can be FAR crueller <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> ) since you have this little icon saying "YOU HAX!" everywhere you go.
basically as long as the .exe remains on your hard drive you'll have that icon. it shouldn't matter if its active; <i>it should detect it anyways.</i> -edit- it would also give a directory of where the file is, so you can delete it if someone's been using your HL and you dont want to get kicked/banned automatically or be ridicueled.
Its true, you will NEVER be able to stop the dedicated cheater. He will pay cash, swap won ids with other cheaters, do whatever it takes to go undetected and keep playing and cheating. However he is in the vast MINORITY. Have a look at any cheating website - www.cshacked.com to name one. Have a look in the forums. They are CHOCK full of nubs asking how to get the hacks working. They arent dedicated, hardlining filth - they just got issues.
So an idea like mine is a deterrant, and a bloody strong one as well - especially for clan players. They dont care if they change there name and get caught cheating on a Euro server, but if that little icon would follow em back to where ever they came from, they wouldnt try it.
A second good point you made - some poor sap having to sift through demo after demo. My heart goes out the poor ****, and I know it wont be me doing it....
But if the admin doesnt trust these ppl, well there is nothing that can be done about that. I think it would be strange that they didnt, especially if this justice system was set up in conjunction with the NS dev team.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->News to you pal: It's their server. If they want to run it into the ground, then by all means, let them<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again I'm with you there - if they want to run it into the ground go ahead. We cant make em run it properly. I'm not seeking to run their server for them - but I am going to make it a bloody sight easier for them to run.
"[abridged] these problems are only really solvable by admins"
Once again I'm right behind you there - admins are by far the greatest defence against cheaters and antisocial players and my system cant come close to the protection they provide. It is only a means of deterance and identification of troublemakers - that can only be a bonus for everyone concerned, unless you happen to be cheating.
Thats why in the age of computers the courts are managed by humans - we can reason. That is also another strength that I see in my justice system. Impartial humans making the judgements.
TO THE NUBS OF THE NS COMMUNITY - LET ME MAKE THIS ABUNDANTLY CLEAR, LET THERE BE NO MISTAKE. Listening? GOOD. They would NEVER tar and feather you for being a good shot or merely being skilled. NEVER YOU HEAR ME ****. If some fool posts saying "but what if i wasnt cheating and i got banned" I am going to be REALLY angry. You can pick cheats by things like maintaining tracking on multiple skulks whilst zooming straight past them with a jp on, death spirals - things that couldnt possibly happen without the help of hacks. Killing 4 skulks with ur lmg and then getting the 5th with ur pistol is NOT going to get you banned, unless they attacked simultaneously from all different directions. The people judging you will NOT be n00bs, and they wont blacklist you offhand, they will have high standards of proof.
The server admins can handle this problem.
I can actually visualise this happening.......
Hrrrrrmmmmm how to stop the flood if someone decides to be a tosser as someone invariably will.....
I was going to suggest that you would have to supply your own wonid if you wanted to report someone and if you kept annoying the oversight ppl they could tar you, but its easy to supply then with some other poor sods wonid and get him to take it up the rear instead.
Well this one has got me flummoxed.... Anyone have any idea how you could prevent this? Have a site running demo editing tutorials, refusing to view any demo over five minutes in length. Before you post a demo you have to edit it so only the part that you think is cheating is included?
Hrrrmmmm....
Oh, and btw - the server admins can handle it? Really? Tell that to the CS community - the admins are trying but its still urinating everyone off no end.
EDIT - Typos
And please - dont think I'm trying to clean the worlds servers. I am talking ONLY NS servers here - and all I'm suggesting is a method of identifying you if you are caught cheating. And it identifies you no matter where the hell you go. I really like the idea of that - but I too dont believe that its ever going to happen.
For everyone else, you just get too much colateral damage. Someone could have stolen your cd key and used it to get your won id banned everywhere - which has happened in my experience - it's not nice.
Also, The wonid system, allthough it works, is still flawed somewhat. Microsoft XP's anti-piracy system seems to have a good way of preventing piracy - kinda by uniquely identifying each "copy" of windows xp - Each "person"/"computer" has it's own code thing that cannot be changed without a great deal of effort. If a half-life anti-cheat thing was to work on a similar principle, there would be far less cheaters - people would stay banned..
The problem imo does not lie with the fact there are cheats - but the fact that the wonid system is flawed and breakable - a more permanent "tag" Imo is needed really for a sufficient anti-cheat effort.
However, NS is a completely different game. There are constant discussions regarding the value of a single player with explosive kill/death ratios against the value of team players. The real benefit of NS is that teamwork isn't preferred, it's required. One or even two lamers running around killing everything that moves doesn't necessarily equal a win. Not only that, but the driving players behind this game generally prefer to play the game as opposed to just getting the "win".
I can't speak well for clan matches as I'm not in a clan, but I have to assume that enough clan members out there have enough experience to recognize a cheater in a match.
From what I know, there are already systems in place for most clan ladders to handle cheaters.
Everyone here likes to hear ways to improve their gaming experience, we just don't want someone inadvertantly ruining with good intentions.
To Spooge - Me too. I stopped playing CS cause of the cheats and the availability of better mods. I also stopped playing DoD because of the rifles - and eventually found NS. And I have to say that I think cheaters in NS cant really have the same effect as in cs. The effectiveness of a cheater in ruining everyones game is diminished as teamwork is still required. No aimbot is going to save you from an onos if you have a lvl 0 lmg. We dont have location specific damage so cheating probably will never reach CS levels.
I guess the only thing we disagree on is that I think my idea can only help - while you seem to believe (and correct me if im wrong) that it will cause more harm then good.
<i>Transmission from TSA Security Administration</i>
<i>Today we have taken a step toward making the United Systems a safer place to live, routing out the crime and helping out the Frontiersmen with there battles against the dreded Kharaa beasts.
The Trans System Authority Security Counsel has implemented an order using emergency powers to appoint a new enforcement group to effectively route out the trouble makers and the criminals in the United Systems. These new enforcers will have the highest authority and can take charge of any systems local enforcement squad to enact a system wide reprimand aganist a known offender.
In this time of War with the Aliens known as Kharaa, most system law enforcement teams don't have the time or man power to uphold the laws and keep order whilst trying to secure their system from any possible Kharaa contamination. This new team of law officers known as
"<b>The Enforcers</b> will be able to take care of trouble makers and uphold the laws of the system to ensure a safe place to live at all times. Any Criminals found in a Enforcer guarded system will be documented and will recieve a punisment fitting to the crime. Sever crimes will result in Baning from that system and this Ban will show up on the ID records of that person making it very difficult for him in any other system.
The Enforcers will continue to update the ID information data base with any new punishments issued, all systems will have access to this datebase to be able to check up the history of any member of the community who has had a punishment enacted towards them. Further more Cases can be presented to the Enforcer Commity to of any person being suspected of comminting a crime. Offenders will be identifyed by a Icon on there ID records which will show up at time of a security scan. Lesser offences will be show differently then more sever crimes. If an offender feels the Enforcers have been unjust, he can appeal his case to the Enforcer Commity. After a set amount of time the Icon on the ID records will be removed but a log of that person will be kept for records, repeat offenerders will be additonaly Punished with a TSA wide Banning of them, from any system under Enforcer Protection. These Criminals will not be allowed back to any of these systems.
The TSA is working hard to keep the peace in this time of chaos, we are looking out for your well being and we hope that the addition of "The Enforcers" will help bring a sense of Calm to the systems in this time of fear. The Enforcers won't be able to do their jobs with out the help of the Communities, and the People, do your part and report any crinimals to your local Security Moderator for your system. Together we can Rid our systems of known system hackers and exploiters and make the communities safe for hard working families again. Only if we all work together with the TSA can we rid the Systems of the Kharaa threat and we asure you that we one day will return all system to a Lawful safe place to live.</i>
<i>TSA Security Counsel</i>
``<i>END TRANSMISSON</i>``
<!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
*Negitive Nancy Alart*
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif'><!--endemo-->
You seem to forget Flayra will add things the Community wants also! and He like the inital Idea
Here are the changes(which you should like a lot)
- IP's are handled, not WONIDS. You ban IP's, and you are screwed. This means Flayra would need to imput a system that doesn't put icons on your WONID, but your IP instead. This means a cheater can get 100 copys of HL, he won't do anything but help out Valve. Every server admin will know to ban this dude on contact, and by ban, I mean ban his IP. Also, while it is true IP's can be changed, it's far more trouble than it's worth in most instances.
- Only server admins or appointed officals may make and record demo's of llamas(people who exploit BIG TIME)/cheaters and send them to the tribunal. They will be given special acess to do so.
- The demo's may be no longer than 10 min, preferably shorter in most cases, and must clearly show that the person is doing something really bad. Also, inside of the demo the IP must be recorded.
- Admins get the option to turn off their little icon next to their name, so they can catch people while they think they aren't being monotored. Flayra would have to make this.
- Next, Flayra would have to make it so any admin or special appointed offical can during anytime of gameplay, request to the server a nice big display of the requested person's IP adress. This would be very helpful in making demos.
- Just to reiterate; the only people who send demos in for offical review are server admins, special appointed officials within the community, and of course, the judges themselves.
- Finnally, to ensure proper review, all demos must be reviewed by at <b>least</b> 2 judges. If any of the 2 judges feel that the demo deserves further review, it <b>must</b> get another view from another judge before any tags are handed out.
- The tag system should work like this:
o First offense: A little green icon next to your name which means first offense, and stays on you for one week.
o Second offense: A little yellow icon next to your name which means second offense, and stays on you for two weeks.
o Third offense: A little red icon next to your name which means third offense, and stays on you for three weeks. Getting the red tag is nearly a 1 month ban from NS. Ouch. Better not cheat.
If the above said system were to be in place, I really think this could work. Hopefully, the people making the demo's will keep it as short as possible, so that they will save time of the demo reviewers (and save their lives).
Marine01, I believe this system is 100% abuse proof, and would ensure what you wanted to happen would in fact happen. Please comment on this.
No truer statement has EVER been said... I've seen 1 guy who I thought was cheating in the entire time I've been playing (too many hundreds of hours) and a quick demo of him proved otherwise.. he was just that good..
So, people are a little paranoid.. Cheater is a name that gets thrown around too freely...