i used to run a DoD community that was quite famous in its' day. 11 servers including 2 32 player servers, custom tourneys, leagues, the works.
when Paladin first came out we installed it on our public servers. it banned <b>FIFTEEN HUNDRED</b> WONs and IPs in three days. after a month the banned configs were so big they were making the server take significantly longer to reload on map change. in the end the server company i worked for scrubbed the banlist on the premise that once a cheater had been caught out a few times on the same server, they'd probably give up and go away.
moral of the story is, shared banlists = ubar banned.cfg spam. has to be handled lightly, and only for serious offenders.
Sure this seems like the modern way to handle offenders, but it seems that as technology and commications evolve into things such as, MySQL, PhB and TEH INTARWEB, ways to divert the deviants becomes more primal. I mean, look at the title. "tarred and feathered" If you really know what entails that, its a horrible thing. An Icon is a definate no-no. Scarlet letter? Were not a bunch of puritans. We are gamers. Gamers that merely want to have fun. I think it ought to be left to the admins. They do their job well enough. Someone blatantly cheating just to be a greifer? LEAVE THE SERVER!!! Go to one where you may have to pipe down a bit and not cuss, but you sure don't see any cheaters. Implementing some sort of tribunal would just allow for witch-trial situations. HE CHEATS I SAW HIM!!! NO I SAW YOU CHEAT!!!. Why cause so much un-needed bologna when an admin can merely say WONID BANNED! So I ask you, do NOT persue a tribunal, you'll be unemploying the admins! <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo-->
CplDavisI hunt the arctic SnonosJoin Date: 2003-01-09Member: 12097Members
Yea good ideas here but easier said then done.
Stoneburg, Spooge, and Nem 0 say it best earlier on.
The Half Life gaming community is like a bad post world war 3 "end of the world" movie.
You have all the scum of the world around everywhere. Id say the majority of the gaming players and servers. Then you have the other minoirty who band together to make their own private "utopian community" with good strong but fair law enforcement (admins) and citizens (gamers) working together to support it by playing by the rules, not cheating, not supporting those who do and by even funding the comunity server if need be.
If an out sider shows up cheating they are usually dealt with in these type of servers. And there are more of them around then you might think. New players (non regs) are always invited to stay and join the community but they better live by the rules.
I have an idea for this. Since a lot of stuff would take a lot of effort to do. Why don't the admins of this forums create a forum exclusively for demos of cheaters. There would be like 20 moderators that have proven themselves worthy to be apart of the counsel. The forum would be moderated so all new posts and accusations would first have to go through a moderator to be added. The moderators would view the demos and if there was some serious problems with this player, then it would be posted, and everyone could see this guy and ban him from their server if they wanted to or not, to protect it.
And as far as the server list of where things are safer. There could be another forum for servers wanting to be apart of this system, so If a moderator determined that someone was cheating, and a approval of 60% of the other moderators agreed, that person would go on a list which would be sent to the servers that accepted to be on this service.
I think it would overall be easy to do. The only hard part is finding a select group of people that would be trustworthy and volunteer themselves to this forum.
This should get webbed or something like this. Its such a good idea because I just played today and I have 5 demos of cheaters. It should be soo useful to have forums or something like them for this sort of thing.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I have 5 demos of cheaters<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I doubt that but who knows, maybe you're playing on really low admined servers.
I like the idea, it's a noble cause, but as it's been said, admins won't want a pan-server police force(some probably wouldn't cooperate). And an admin database won't be helpful for those low-admined servers which is where the problem lies anyway. I'd support a system if it existed but I think it would find a lot of opposition, no matter what form it takes.
<!--QuoteBegin--Jim has Skillz+Jul 14 2003, 11:29 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jim has Skillz @ Jul 14 2003, 11:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This should get webbed or something like this. Its such a good idea because I just played today and I have 5 demos of cheaters. It should be soo useful to have forums or something like them for this sort of thing. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> There is something better, and it is called Cheating Death. If you play on CD servers eclusively you'll never see another cheater again.
PS: there is a server forum for this, <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=SF&f=8' target='_blank'>here.</a>
Yeah but CD isn't perfect. I have seen people get through CD easily. It is good at getting a lot of cheats but not all of them, because there is always someone making them. So I don't see why creating a new forum for this wouldn't be approved, its to stop cheaters. This is to help the NS community and it wouldn't take much work except for the moderators that give their time to the mod. I am not sure why you don't like this idea, it doesn't even require any coding, its very simple to do.
How about making a stickied "how to spot cheaters, what to do, what not to do" thread?. By this I mean with illustrative demos of common cheats(wall hack, aimbot, speed hack etc) showing people who cheat, these recordings are most appropiatly ones that where used to ban them. Some people are just that good and it can be hard to tell them from cheaters, some people are just that bad and think everyone is cheating. Personally I would advice people not to jump the gun and scream omg hax but to calm down, go spec, watch for things you could not possibly do without cheating(instantly switching from target to target 150 degrees and not missing or shooting in between, 2 people chop a res node and one is ~1.5X faster etc.). I think most accusations are completely unfounded, I think everyone has been accused of cheating at least once or twice even if they are not that good, I have even seen admins get accused of cheating on pubs. I have spectated people probably about 10 times, only once have I seen a cheater, caught him on tape and sent in the evidence. The fact that cheating may occur is probably more damaging then the actual cheating because everyone is so paranoid.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This should get webbed or something like this. Its such a good idea because I just played today and I have 5 demos of cheaters. It should be soo useful to have forums or something like them for this sort of thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It would be interesting to see those records. Either you played on the nr 1 haxor server or you are just very paranoid <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Flayra+Jul 12 2003, 12:25 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flayra @ Jul 12 2003, 12:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->One thing I'd really like to implement one say, is a general policing task force. Players could "call the cops" while playing, much like they can eject the commander. If a certain percentage of people "call the cops" within a certain time, an APB goes out. This could go to an IRC channel, it could send e-mail, post a news post on a central web site, update a database, etc. The important thing is that there is a group of trusted individuals who are ready to respond. They see the incoming message, then they click it to join the server. They then spectate, and watch to see what's happening. They then would have the power to kick out or reprimand a player, if they were being abusive or were apparently cheating.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Flay If you look at Demon UK Servers We already have a Database system that works by players on a server changing there name to Admin_needed (or simular) and when done a msg is auto sent to a Admins channel (IRC) with the message Admin Needed on Demon Cs (TFC, DM ect) server number x, and if there is a admin availible he/she will respond to the msg, also demon have a full DB of all known and reported offenders that the admins can get infomation on before entering the server in question and checking on the player to see if he is already known or not and what offence they have commited or if banned ect.
Demon also have a report channel (IRC) that players can join to inform demon of a possible cheat/offender if they wish, again it is monitored by Demon Admins who will responed (if availible) to the players request.
To Forlorn: Hehehe sorry I took so long replying I have to work man <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Yeah you're right, I do like your ideas. The only one that seems to have small troubles is the IP one. Apparently 56kers get random ips every time they log on, and they can end up with an ip that once belonged to a caught cheaters. I think that if this system is run by dedicated people then it will be almost 100% abuse proof. But yeah, I like the rest of your ideas.
To Communist: Witchhunt? Really? Accusations? Man I promise we are not going to be dunking these ppl in water to see if they are guilty - we are gonna be reviewing demos. And unless you have SOLID evidence IN THAT DEMO (evidence not merely "bs no one is that accurate")
To Davis: Good analogy. Absolute chaos in every server other than the heavily policed ones. My bet is that most ppl dumping on this idea (and thats okay, everyone is entitled to an opinion) are from the tight nit heavily policed groups that dont believe there is a problem.
To Ape: LoL. We smoke weed and rebel against authority (oh, and we are rich and cool and have great jobs and really really hot wives who used to be porn stars ahahahahahahahahaha). Yeah right tossers - and yet you spend 23hrs a day making hacks and posting on a cheating forum.
To Soylent: Look I know all about making demos, and a lot of ppl would be willing to learn as well - but we really have nothing to make them for. Sure I can post them on the iPGN forums and they will be reviewed and subsequent wonid bans handed out - but those ppl will just move on to other servers. I want more than that.
Finally - my idea. Actually someone here (jim has skillz) said it already I think. To combat ppl spamming the oversight justice admins, you have to be a member of this board. You post the demo in the appropriate forum, they check it, hell the oversight admins can vote right there in the thread if they like, and the WON details are entered into a database. You spam them - you get banned. And you want to keep coming back under diff alias's? Its wayyy easier for them to ban you than you to make new alias'. And make a rule - only one cheat demo posted per day per person. So if you want to spam them with useless shizen you are gonna be spotted bloody easy.
To Majian: Thanks for the backstory support and bumpage <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
i don't worry much about cheaters i feel the percent of players vs the percent of cheaters is vastly different
in fact when i used to play TFC i would get called a cheater and get kicked just for getting a higher score. was i cheating.... never
play on boys and girls play on <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Anything by wonid will not be effective for the really bad cheaters (was on a server the other day same guy came in and was banned literally like 20 times and apparently according to admins had been doing it for a week, and been getting banned every time), but if it deters the casual cheaters, which I feel CD does also, then the real abusers will always be fairly easy to spot. It's a great idea but I don't see how it would be affective or anywhere near it. Not to mention while you are waiting for them to be reviewed, they continue to go around **** people off, while admins wait for official decisions. Or the admins do their job in the first place and kick or ban.
I have read this forum over a few times to get both sides of the story, I don't know exactly what would be easy to implement and what would be hard. I also seem to notice the orignal Idea is getting mixed up alot. Simply put: A group of Non Bias people will act as a tribunal comity, they, working with admins of servers who agree to be apart of the program and the community, will be able to review demos and pics that are submitted to them and if SUBSTANTIAL evidence is found (Ex. 3 different people sending in Demos of the same person)(Ex. an Admin, with a demo of a obvious hack)(Ex. A person who likes to break server rules and harasses a server, getting a new Id and doing it again) That person will be issued a Icon via the unique WON ID number, this will show up in the game next to that persons name and will allow people and admins to keep an eye on him. If he is found cheating/Breaking Rules/Exploting/Hacking again, he will be given a new icon which lets admins know that he needs to be kicked and or banned because he is a repeat offender or a Llama who will ruin gameplay.
The comity will be able to review demos and only when its proven hes a problem, or enough people complain about him for good reasons, will he be issued the Icon. This will for the most part, get rid of all the low level cheaters or trouble makers. The High level cheaters and hackers will still be able to get away with crimes, but they will be routed out and it will become obvious and alot harder for them under this system. The Original Idea isn't going to Ban anyone, its up to the server admins to do that, all this is going to do is lable them a possible trouble maker or cheater so that they can be identified faster or watch closely. Some people once placed on the low level warning icon, will reform right away and wont cause anymore trouble, others will keep causing crap and will be up graded to a higher threat level, admins will be able to see this and Kick them if they choose, or they might give them a chance.
If you join a server and 5 out of the 7 people on your team have RED high level icons, chances are, its not a very good server! The sad truth is that a small amount of people will get labled Low level offenders when infact they are innocent, but that is why there is going to be 2 or 3 or 4 levels all different colours. The low level (say blue) will allow people to know that you did something small, but wrong enough that people got really mad and wanted you punished, if you behave and don't repeate offend that icon will dissapear in a week or so. Its the people with the Red icons that you will want to avoid. Because they would only be able to get a red icon, for being a real trouble maker.
The system has flaws, but so does the Valve system and CD. I think its a great idea, because it wont punish anyone who doesn't deserve it. They will be labled a possible trouble maker and if they behave, they have nothing to worry about from the admins. Marine01 Keep it up buddy, Flayra like the Idea, so do I and if you have nothing to hide, everyone should want more ways to get rid of Cheaters.
Every Server should have CD installed and it should be non optional, but the optional servers almost do what Marine01's idea is, they lable your name with a tag "[NO CD]" then people will know that your not using CD and if they suspect you of cheating, they have good cause. This sytem doesn'y only route out people with an OGC or and hack, it is a way of making people stop explotes, or bugs usage. If you like to FL build and you know its wrong, you have been told and still do it, maybe you won't do it when you have people watching you closely due to a Low level tag. If you start doing it again after the tag is gone, your going to get a higher level tag and so on.
I say everyone should back this IDEA, if your a cheater or like to cause trouble then vote NO, other wise there is no reason to say no! anything that can reduse cheaters should be FULLY BACKED!
<!--QuoteBegin--DaDDeh+Jul 15 2003, 07:08 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DaDDeh @ Jul 15 2003, 07:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Flayra+Jul 12 2003, 12:25 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flayra @ Jul 12 2003, 12:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->One thing I'd really like to implement one say, is a general policing task force. Players could "call the cops" while playing, much like they can eject the commander. If a certain percentage of people "call the cops" within a certain time, an APB goes out. This could go to an IRC channel, it could send e-mail, post a news post on a central web site, update a database, etc. The important thing is that there is a group of trusted individuals who are ready to respond. They see the incoming message, then they click it to join the server. They then spectate, and watch to see what's happening. They then would have the power to kick out or reprimand a player, if they were being abusive or were apparently cheating.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Flay If you look at Demon UK Servers We already have a Database system that works by players on a server changing there name to Admin_needed (or simular) and when done a msg is auto sent to a Admins channel (IRC) with the message Admin Needed on Demon Cs (TFC, DM ect) server number x, and if there is a admin availible he/she will respond to the msg, also demon have a full DB of all known and reported offenders that the admins can get infomation on before entering the server in question and checking on the player to see if he is already known or not and what offence they have commited or if banned ect.
Demon also have a report channel (IRC) that players can join to inform demon of a possible cheat/offender if they wish, again it is monitored by Demon Admins who will responed (if availible) to the players request. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> BYNS have a very similar set up (which i mentioned 2 pages back) works for us, and obviously for you too. why not recommend the adoption of that as a standard practice, rather than fiddle with code?
<!--QuoteBegin--wizard@psu+Jul 15 2003, 11:55 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (wizard@psu @ Jul 15 2003, 11:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I would have to cast my vote of "NO" for this.
It would be far too prone for abuse. What prevents me from submitting fake demos of legitimate players? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> agreed. leave the adminning to the admins.
To Majin: AH HA - Summed up perfectly thank you. And yeah it is good to remind us all Flayra liked the idea - if that man thinks its good for NS than it cant be all evil <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
To the aptly named Turkey (lol j/k <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->): The problem with banning cheaters with 20 wonids is, as Elrond pointed out, eventually your ban list can become too big, and you have massive load times between maps. Yes, some people do have 20 wonids, and when finally all 20 are banned from one server, they go to another. However, with my idea, each time he uses and is caught using his wonid it is "cut from the pack" shall we say - unuseable. And as for the "really bad cheaters" - nothing is going to stop them save admins. My idea may slow them down, may annoy them, but it wont stop them.
To Elrond: First of all, I am NOT advocating the fiddling with of code. What I thought added to my idea was the fact that these icons are already in place in the NS mod - not something that Flayra would have to waste time inventing. While BYNS and Daemon server have an excellent system for patrolling and banning in NS servers - cheaters simply are not afraid of you. They dont have it easy, and they do get banned, but they can simply move on to another server.
"why not recommend the adoption of (organised patrolling systems such as BYNS) as a standard practice"
Why? Because it still relies upon the motivation and organisation of lots of people in little groups of servers everywhere. That is going to be well nigh impossible. And still if you could manage to "motivate the NS gaming community", they would still be fragmented. I am suggesting that a small centralized body of motivated people set themselves up and let people from anywhere (be they patrolled groups servers or just the local) post demos of griefers and know that they are not just helping themselves, they are helping players (and admins) everywhere. And suddenly the cheaters have something to be afraid of - its not just another ban, its identification.
To Wizard: Is it that easy to make fake demos? Please explain to me how this can be done (no sarcasm there, I honestly want to know cause this will blow my idea out of the water if its easy). A possible parallel to make here might be with our Justice system - what prevents me from trying to frame you? Doesnt that make our courts worthless if I can frame you? NO. The standard of evidence must be high, and these are intelligent beings reviewing the evidence.
Note to all: I find it strange that the people who object most to this idea (Elrond, Daddeh, Stoneburg, Spooge) all seem to come from really well maintained and admined servers. I know ur system is great and working well - but why would you oppose this one? It will only help you guys, and wont infringe on ur sacred admin rights - as well as helping the community at large. I just dont get it....
<!--QuoteBegin--Marine01+Jul 16 2003, 06:27 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Marine01 @ Jul 16 2003, 06:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> To Wizard: Is it that easy to make fake demos? Please explain to me how this can be done (no sarcasm there, I honestly want to know cause this will blow my idea out of the water if its easy). A possible parallel to make here might be with our Justice system - what prevents me from trying to frame you? Doesnt that make our courts worthless if I can frame you? NO. The standard of evidence must be high, and these are intelligent beings reviewing the evidence. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Making a fake demo of someone is not terribly difficult. It will seem more authentic the more effort someone puts into it. You could even spoof wonIDs.
The comparison to the Justice system could be relevant. However, remember that the System is actually a gigantic beurocracy. I really do not think that we have the resources to maintain the level of quality control that is necessary to maintain such a system. As NS grows more popular we may but as of right now it would be a slow process for approval/appeal/aquittal.
My post is not meant to knock down this idea, but rather propose possible complications that could arise for such a system so that we can discuss them.
I would love to help with the system if it is decided that it can actually be fairly implemented. I just do not see that as possible at this time.
edit: I also forgot about the problem that cheaters have no qualms about switching their IP address or wonID many times. Most already have this process automated. How would such a system deal with this?
Yeah it is true that the justice system is slow and unweildy - but that stems from the fact that they have to try and cover every single base, and really important things like peoples lives hang in the balance. Now I dont want to see someone framed as much as the next guy, but it seems to me like it would be a hell of a lot of work to frame someone.
Possibly you could ummmm...... turn your hacks on, change your name to theirs in a different server, get a friend to demo you, doctor the screenshot of "status" in console to change your wonid to theirs, and then submit that - but thats a hell of a long route.....
As for changing wonids, that will merely slow justice down - not prevent it. There is no such thing as a WON id generator - cheats have a limited number of CD keys to use. So you are caught using one, you are tarred and feathered on that wonid, you switch to another. But that icon remains on ur other wonid for 3 whole months, so basically you cant use it again for a whole 1/4 of a year. Do you still want to keep coming back to the same server with a different wonid each time? Eventually you will run out of wonids/get caught with same id twice = 6 month icon. Get caught 3 times = perma icon denoting you as filth to be ridiculed quickly before permanently banned.
As for this system being viable at the time being - simply put, it isnt. When the community gets bigger and the devs have more time on their hands, then the benefits will become more obvious.
And remember, in the play she wasn't innocent of the charge. It is to illustrate that the consequences of such a public display of shame can go far beyond the original intent.
Comments
when Paladin first came out we installed it on our public servers. it banned <b>FIFTEEN HUNDRED</b> WONs and IPs in three days. after a month the banned configs were so big they were making the server take significantly longer to reload on map change. in the end the server company i worked for scrubbed the banlist on the premise that once a cheater had been caught out a few times on the same server, they'd probably give up and go away.
moral of the story is, shared banlists = ubar banned.cfg spam. has to be handled lightly, and only for serious offenders.
Stoneburg, Spooge, and Nem 0 say it best earlier on.
The Half Life gaming community is like a bad post world war 3 "end of the world" movie.
You have all the scum of the world around everywhere. Id say the majority of the gaming players and servers. Then you have the other minoirty who band together to make their own private "utopian community" with good strong but fair law enforcement (admins) and citizens (gamers) working together to support it by playing by the rules, not cheating, not supporting those who do and by even funding the comunity server if need be.
If an out sider shows up cheating they are usually dealt with in these type of servers. And there are more of them around then you might think. New players (non regs) are always invited to stay and join the community but they better live by the rules.
And as far as the server list of where things are safer. There could be another forum for servers wanting to be apart of this system, so If a moderator determined that someone was cheating, and a approval of 60% of the other moderators agreed, that person would go on a list which would be sent to the servers that accepted to be on this service.
I think it would overall be easy to do. The only hard part is finding a select group of people that would be trustworthy and volunteer themselves to this forum.
I just spent 5 minutes on the cs-hacked.com forums.
I barely escaped with my sanity.
And...
Marine01, plz respond to my post, what do you think?
I doubt that but who knows, maybe you're playing on really low admined servers.
I like the idea, it's a noble cause, but as it's been said, admins won't want a pan-server police force(some probably wouldn't cooperate). And an admin database won't be helpful for those low-admined servers which is where the problem lies anyway. I'd support a system if it existed but I think it would find a lot of opposition, no matter what form it takes.
There is something better, and it is called Cheating Death. If you play on CD servers eclusively you'll never see another cheater again.
PS: there is a server forum for this, <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=SF&f=8' target='_blank'>here.</a>
It would be interesting to see those records. Either you played on the nr 1 haxor server or you are just very paranoid <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Flay If you look at Demon UK Servers We already have a Database system that works by players on a server changing there name to Admin_needed (or simular) and when done a msg is auto sent to a Admins channel (IRC) with the message Admin Needed on Demon Cs (TFC, DM ect) server number x, and if there is a admin availible he/she will respond to the msg, also demon have a full DB of all known and reported offenders that the admins can get infomation on before entering the server in question and checking on the player to see if he is already known or not and what offence they have commited or if banned ect.
Demon also have a report channel (IRC) that players can join to inform demon of a possible cheat/offender if they wish, again it is monitored by Demon Admins who will responed (if availible) to the players request.
To Forlorn: Hehehe sorry I took so long replying I have to work man <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Yeah you're right, I do like your ideas. The only one that seems to have small troubles is the IP one. Apparently 56kers get random ips every time they log on, and they can end up with an ip that once belonged to a caught cheaters. I think that if this system is run by dedicated people then it will be almost 100% abuse proof. But yeah, I like the rest of your ideas.
To Communist: Witchhunt? Really? Accusations? Man I promise we are not going to be dunking these ppl in water to see if they are guilty - we are gonna be reviewing demos. And unless you have SOLID evidence IN THAT DEMO (evidence not merely "bs no one is that accurate")
To Davis: Good analogy. Absolute chaos in every server other than the heavily policed ones. My bet is that most ppl dumping on this idea (and thats okay, everyone is entitled to an opinion) are from the tight nit heavily policed groups that dont believe there is a problem.
To Ape: LoL. We smoke weed and rebel against authority (oh, and we are rich and cool and have great jobs and really really hot wives who used to be porn stars ahahahahahahahahaha). Yeah right tossers - and yet you spend 23hrs a day making hacks and posting on a cheating forum.
To Soylent: Look I know all about making demos, and a lot of ppl would be willing to learn as well - but we really have nothing to make them for. Sure I can post them on the iPGN forums and they will be reviewed and subsequent wonid bans handed out - but those ppl will just move on to other servers. I want more than that.
Finally - my idea. Actually someone here (jim has skillz) said it already I think. To combat ppl spamming the oversight justice admins, you have to be a member of this board. You post the demo in the appropriate forum, they check it, hell the oversight admins can vote right there in the thread if they like, and the WON details are entered into a database. You spam them - you get banned. And you want to keep coming back under diff alias's? Its wayyy easier for them to ban you than you to make new alias'. And make a rule - only one cheat demo posted per day per person. So if you want to spam them with useless shizen you are gonna be spotted bloody easy.
To Majian: Thanks for the backstory support and bumpage <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
i don't worry much about cheaters
i feel the percent of players vs the percent of cheaters is vastly different
in fact when i used to play TFC i would get called a cheater and get kicked
just for getting a higher score.
was i cheating.... never
play on boys and girls play on <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I also seem to notice the orignal Idea is getting mixed up alot.
Simply put:
A group of Non Bias people will act as a tribunal comity, they, working with admins of servers who agree to be apart of the program and the community, will be able to review demos and pics that are submitted to them and if SUBSTANTIAL evidence is found (Ex. 3 different people sending in Demos of the same person)(Ex. an Admin, with a demo of a obvious hack)(Ex. A person who likes to break server rules and harasses a server, getting a new Id and doing it again) That person will be issued a Icon via the unique WON ID number, this will show up in the game next to that persons name and will allow people and admins to keep an eye on him. If he is found cheating/Breaking Rules/Exploting/Hacking again, he will be given a new icon which lets admins know that he needs to be kicked and or banned because he is a repeat offender or a Llama who will ruin gameplay.
The comity will be able to review demos and only when its proven hes a problem, or enough people complain about him for good reasons, will he be issued the Icon. This will for the most part, get rid of all the low level cheaters or trouble makers. The High level cheaters and hackers will still be able to get away with crimes, but they will be routed out and it will become obvious and alot harder for them under this system. The Original Idea isn't going to Ban anyone, its up to the server admins to do that, all this is going to do is lable them a possible trouble maker or cheater so that they can be identified faster or watch closely. Some people once placed on the low level warning icon, will reform right away and wont cause anymore trouble, others will keep causing crap and will be up graded to a higher threat level, admins will be able to see this and Kick them if they choose, or they might give them a chance.
If you join a server and 5 out of the 7 people on your team have RED high level icons, chances are, its not a very good server! The sad truth is that a small amount of people will get labled Low level offenders when infact they are innocent, but that is why there is going to be 2 or 3 or 4 levels all different colours. The low level (say blue) will allow people to know that you did something small, but wrong enough that people got really mad and wanted you punished, if you behave and don't repeate offend that icon will dissapear in a week or so. Its the people with the Red icons that you will want to avoid. Because they would only be able to get a red icon, for being a real trouble maker.
The system has flaws, but so does the Valve system and CD. I think its a great idea, because it wont punish anyone who doesn't deserve it. They will be labled a possible trouble maker and if they behave, they have nothing to worry about from the admins. Marine01 Keep it up buddy, Flayra like the Idea, so do I and if you have nothing to hide, everyone should want more ways to get rid of Cheaters.
Every Server should have CD installed and it should be non optional, but the optional servers almost do what Marine01's idea is, they lable your name with a tag "[NO CD]" then people will know that your not using CD and if they suspect you of cheating, they have good cause. This sytem doesn'y only route out people with an OGC or and hack, it is a way of making people stop explotes, or bugs usage. If you like to FL build and you know its wrong, you have been told and still do it, maybe you won't do it when you have people watching you closely due to a Low level tag. If you start doing it again after the tag is gone, your going to get a higher level tag and so on.
I say everyone should back this IDEA, if your a cheater or like to cause trouble then vote NO, other wise there is no reason to say no! anything that can reduse cheaters should be FULLY BACKED!
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Flay If you look at Demon UK Servers We already have a Database system that works by players on a server changing there name to Admin_needed (or simular) and when done a msg is auto sent to a Admins channel (IRC) with the message Admin Needed on Demon Cs (TFC, DM ect) server number x, and if there is a admin availible he/she will respond to the msg, also demon have a full DB of all known and reported offenders that the admins can get infomation on before entering the server in question and checking on the player to see if he is already known or not and what offence they have commited or if banned ect.
Demon also have a report channel (IRC) that players can join to inform demon of a possible cheat/offender if they wish, again it is monitored by Demon Admins who will responed (if availible) to the players request. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
BYNS have a very similar set up (which i mentioned 2 pages back) works for us, and obviously for you too. why not recommend the adoption of that as a standard practice, rather than fiddle with code?
It would be far too prone for abuse. What prevents me from submitting fake demos of legitimate players?
It would be far too prone for abuse. What prevents me from submitting fake demos of legitimate players? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
agreed. leave the adminning to the admins.
To the aptly named Turkey (lol j/k <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->): The problem with banning cheaters with 20 wonids is, as Elrond pointed out, eventually your ban list can become too big, and you have massive load times between maps. Yes, some people do have 20 wonids, and when finally all 20 are banned from one server, they go to another. However, with my idea, each time he uses and is caught using his wonid it is "cut from the pack" shall we say - unuseable. And as for the "really bad cheaters" - nothing is going to stop them save admins. My idea may slow them down, may annoy them, but it wont stop them.
To Elrond: First of all, I am NOT advocating the fiddling with of code. What I thought added to my idea was the fact that these icons are already in place in the NS mod - not something that Flayra would have to waste time inventing. While BYNS and Daemon server have an excellent system for patrolling and banning in NS servers - cheaters simply are not afraid of you. They dont have it easy, and they do get banned, but they can simply move on to another server.
"why not recommend the adoption of (organised patrolling systems such as BYNS) as a standard practice"
Why? Because it still relies upon the motivation and organisation of lots of people in little groups of servers everywhere. That is going to be well nigh impossible. And still if you could manage to "motivate the NS gaming community", they would still be fragmented. I am suggesting that a small centralized body of motivated people set themselves up and let people from anywhere (be they patrolled groups servers or just the local) post demos of griefers and know that they are not just helping themselves, they are helping players (and admins) everywhere. And suddenly the cheaters have something to be afraid of - its not just another ban, its identification.
To Wizard: Is it that easy to make fake demos? Please explain to me how this can be done (no sarcasm there, I honestly want to know cause this will blow my idea out of the water if its easy). A possible parallel to make here might be with our Justice system - what prevents me from trying to frame you? Doesnt that make our courts worthless if I can frame you? NO. The standard of evidence must be high, and these are intelligent beings reviewing the evidence.
Note to all: I find it strange that the people who object most to this idea (Elrond, Daddeh, Stoneburg, Spooge) all seem to come from really well maintained and admined servers. I know ur system is great and working well - but why would you oppose this one? It will only help you guys, and wont infringe on ur sacred admin rights - as well as helping the community at large. I just dont get it....
To Wizard: Is it that easy to make fake demos? Please explain to me how this can be done (no sarcasm there, I honestly want to know cause this will blow my idea out of the water if its easy). A possible parallel to make here might be with our Justice system - what prevents me from trying to frame you? Doesnt that make our courts worthless if I can frame you? NO. The standard of evidence must be high, and these are intelligent beings reviewing the evidence.
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Making a fake demo of someone is not terribly difficult. It will seem more authentic the more effort someone puts into it. You could even spoof wonIDs.
The comparison to the Justice system could be relevant. However, remember that the System is actually a gigantic beurocracy. I really do not think that we have the resources to maintain the level of quality control that is necessary to maintain such a system. As NS grows more popular we may but as of right now it would be a slow process for approval/appeal/aquittal.
My post is not meant to knock down this idea, but rather propose possible complications that could arise for such a system so that we can discuss them.
I would love to help with the system if it is decided that it can actually be fairly implemented. I just do not see that as possible at this time.
edit: I also forgot about the problem that cheaters have no qualms about switching their IP address or wonID many times. Most already have this process automated. How would such a system deal with this?
Yeah it is true that the justice system is slow and unweildy - but that stems from the fact that they have to try and cover every single base, and really important things like peoples lives hang in the balance. Now I dont want to see someone framed as much as the next guy, but it seems to me like it would be a hell of a lot of work to frame someone.
Possibly you could ummmm...... turn your hacks on, change your name to theirs in a different server, get a friend to demo you, doctor the screenshot of "status" in console to change your wonid to theirs, and then submit that - but thats a hell of a long route.....
As for changing wonids, that will merely slow justice down - not prevent it. There is no such thing as a WON id generator - cheats have a limited number of CD keys to use. So you are caught using one, you are tarred and feathered on that wonid, you switch to another. But that icon remains on ur other wonid for 3 whole months, so basically you cant use it again for a whole 1/4 of a year. Do you still want to keep coming back to the same server with a different wonid each time? Eventually you will run out of wonids/get caught with same id twice = 6 month icon. Get caught 3 times = perma icon denoting you as filth to be ridiculed quickly before permanently banned.
As for this system being viable at the time being - simply put, it isnt. When the community gets bigger and the devs have more time on their hands, then the benefits will become more obvious.
<img src='http://www.personal.psu.edu/jam544/images/adultry.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
<img src='http://www.personal.psu.edu/jam544/images/cheating.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
Are we substituting one for the other?
And remember, in the play she wasn't innocent of the charge. It is to illustrate that the consequences of such a public display of shame can go far beyond the original intent.