<!--QuoteBegin--Ollj+Aug 8 2003, 09:42 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ollj @ Aug 8 2003, 09:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I just found out why ns is soo unballanced. A marine RT costs 22 res, alien RT only 15 res. woot woot!!!!!!! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> First off, judging by pure stats, I do think that Fade's are underpowered. Not by much, but they most certainly are.
Some things I dislike about the fade:
Metabolize is weak, make it regen like 35 hp a whack for the amount of energy it takes. Fade Swipe Should deal 90. Remember, it wouldn't be like an onos as the onos does double to structures.
Second off, Ollj, you do realize how stupid you sound, right?
15 Alien res is WAY much more than 22 marine res. Wake up and smell the coffee, dude. It's a shared pool vs. team pool.
Is this based on Hollywood movies? Since when did we take Hollywood movies as actual fact sources? Has anyone documented marines with nano enhancements fighting alien menaces with hi tech guns and armor? I believe not. Then neither you or I know whats the "right way" to do it. Just because in the aliens movie all the guys stood still firing while the aliens rushed at them doesnt mean everyone does or the TSA marines do. What proof do you have? MOVIES? BOOKS?
<!--QuoteBegin--Soberana+Aug 8 2003, 11:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Soberana @ Aug 8 2003, 11:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Is this based on Hollywood movies? Since when did we take Hollywood movies as actual fact sources? Has anyone documented marines with nano enhancements fighting alien menaces with hi tech guns and armor? I believe not. Then neither you or I know whats the "right way" to do it. Just because in the aliens movie all the guys stood still firing while the aliens rushed at them doesnt mean everyone does or the TSA marines do. What proof do you have? MOVIES? BOOKS?
You need proof, facts, REAL facts, PROVEN facts. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> OMG TEH NAWNO TEK IS R OVARPWRED IT R NOT REEL!
MonkeyBonk, get halfway decent at a fade, then you can whine all you want about "fades sucking". But wait, you won't have to, because you would have figured out what the rest of us already knew. Fades are more powerful now than ever. Gee Gee. Exactly which alien is NOT a hit-and-run type? Even onos classifes: Devour and run. Go heal. Repeat. Gorge is...well...a different story, but it's not supposed to be the fighting type. Aliens employ guerrilla (sp?) tactics, marine's don't. Thats the beauty of Natural-Selection. OK, argue away at my points. Feel free to, I believe I have made very strong points. And I think others will vouch for me.
God this feels like the Planetside forums. In planetside there's this nifty little missile launcher called the Phoenix. It has only 1 shot, is fly-by-wire (can be user guided), but deals low damage, has a slow refire rate, and terrible manuverability.
And everyone (mainly the other 2 enemy factions) are saying it's fine. FACTS SHOW that both the Phoenix and the Fade are woefully underpowered compared to other weapons, and many people still refuse to believe it.
<!--QuoteBegin--ThE HeRo+Aug 8 2003, 11:50 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ThE HeRo @ Aug 8 2003, 11:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> MonkeyBonk, get halfway decent at a fade, then you can whine all you want about "fades sucking". But wait, you won't have to, because you would have figured out what the rest of us already knew. Fades are more powerful now than ever. Gee Gee. Exactly which alien is NOT a hit-and-run type? Even onos classifes: Devour and run. Go heal. Repeat. Gorge is...well...a different story, but it's not supposed to be the fighting type. Aliens employ guerrilla (sp?) tactics, marine's don't. Thats the beauty of Natural-Selection. OK, argue away at my points. Feel free to, I believe I have made very strong points. And I think others will vouch for me. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What's "more powerful"? Blink is worse then it was in 1.04 (Sure you don't get stuck, but it doesn't blink anymore, you just run fast at the cost of more stamina). They lost acid rocket and bile bomb's effectiveness. Minimap can be exploited to see non-cloaked fades waiting in ambush. Shotgun kills them in 2 hits, and the shotgun has been BEEFED since 1.04.
Slash range increased. Blink is WAY better. Learn to use it. You don't hold the button down. And no, you don't <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->run fast at the cost of more stamina<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You FLY fast at the cost of adrenaline. flying is different than running.
Frankly, you just suck in 2.0. Read the changelog, and try again.
<!--QuoteBegin--ThE HeRo+Aug 8 2003, 11:57 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ThE HeRo @ Aug 8 2003, 11:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Slash range increased. Blink is WAY better. Learn to use it. You don't hold the button down. And no, you don't <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->run fast at the cost of more stamina<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You FLY fast at the cost of adrenaline. flying is different than running.
Frankly, you just suck in 2.0. Read the changelog, and try again. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd rather get there instantly then 'fly'. By the way, skulk leap goes almost as fast as blink, so blink it's pretty pointless as 'fade specific'.
Actually i used to go fade 24/7 and you would see fades everywhere in 1.04, now ill be lucky to see 2 fades in a game, quite frankly id prefer to save for an onos just another 50 res away where you dont get mowed down THAT easily, you can take a marine out for 30 seconds or less Including HA's AND on top of that u can stomp and run or gore another marine in amount of seconds while gaining 2hp per tick, and if you have regen you are the offical tank in game, in 1.04 id always try to run from a fade alone, now i charge at it with no problem 70% of the time succeding in it leaving or dying, they do in fact die WAY too fast and are almost as usful as a skulk, mabye even les due to no wallcliming, i think we would all go or see fades more often if metabolize was moved to hive 3
by the way now that its considered "flying" then why do they still call it "blink"? sure its more manueverable but it almost defeats the purpose of the name, im not being mr perfect over here either FYI
When people start dragging themselves out of the "sensory first" mentaility and use movement first Fades can really come into their own. Fades without adrenelin are rather lacking because they do run our of energy rather quickly, but give them that 2 res upgrade and it's like facing a differant beast. You can blink literally indefenitly; just hold the butten down <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> You can also metabolise forever; the amount of energy expended is less than your regen. That said, for 50 res Fades are a little lacking. I'd like to see metabolise heal a little more health, and make the claws around 90 (or whatever is needed to kill a lvl 1 armour marine in 2 hits). Bear in mind that marines working as a team even at lvl 0 have little trouble taking down a lone Fade.
A skulk on 50 res has to know what's best for the <i>team</i>. That 50 res can be 4 chambers, or a hive, or 2 res nodes, or 4 OCs, or savings for an early onos, or it can be a Fade. In a teamplay situation, most of the non-Fade options are going to be better for the team, because they represent a more concrete investment. I'm not saying people can't do well with a Fade (i do resonably well with it) but I will say that the res they cost can be put to better use.
In 2.0 you need all classes, onos to freeze HA , Fades to blink in and do as much damage then blink out, skulks to scout/parasite/xeno, lerks to umbra/primal scream and gorges to bile bomb turret farms.
<!--QuoteBegin--Deronok+Aug 9 2003, 01:10 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Deronok @ Aug 9 2003, 01:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> In 2.0 you need all classes, onos to freeze HA , Fades to blink in and do as much damage then blink out, skulks to scout/parasite/xeno, lerks to umbra/primal scream and gorges to bile bomb turret farms. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> very very, wise words my friend
Personally, I'd like the swipe to do 90-100 damage. Give fades slightly faster footspeed (and perhaps a higher jump, just to be unique). Currently, level 3 marines chew through pretty much anything short of an Onos. Fades would be (since if you're NORMAL and drop a res tower right away) cropping up around the same time marine upgrades are, fades should be able to fight with level 1-2 marines and hold their own.
As for hit and run, sure a fade is good for that. Unless the marines 1) Look at the minimap. 2) Have ears, and 3) Have motion tracking. Then they all turn around and kill you. Quite quickly at that. Fades can take out 2 light marines easy. But when they walk around in groups of 4, fades are quickly mowed down.
<!--QuoteBegin--Deronok+Aug 9 2003, 12:10 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Deronok @ Aug 9 2003, 12:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> In 2.0 you need all classes, onos to freeze HA , Fades to blink in and do as much damage then blink out, skulks to scout/parasite/xeno, lerks to umbra/primal scream and gorges to bile bomb turret farms. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Fades CAN'T do much damage, that's the POINT!
Their swipe is worse then the skulk bite. Their footspeed is worse then the skulks. This means that if the marine you're fighting actually (Gasp) moves, he can empty an entire clip into you before you can catch him.
Actually, now that I'm thinking about it, giving the fade enhanced jumping would be excellent. Hop up into vantage points, over marines and over structures, without having to waste energy and time switching to 'blink'.
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
edited August 2003
<!--QuoteBegin--Monkeybonk+Aug 9 2003, 01:20 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Monkeybonk @ Aug 9 2003, 01:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Xzilen+Aug 8 2003, 07:14 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Xzilen @ Aug 8 2003, 07:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I like fades the way they are. Give it some more time. Sheesh <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> More time? I'm always ALWAYS at the top of the killboard, and I rarely go onos. Even when people are onos, I'm at the top. I think I know what I'm talking about. All the n00bs are going to marines, and I think that's why people are saying the aliens are overpowered, but once the marines get their **** together, I think marines will be dominating the aliens. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, the worlds best NS players seem to think the Fade is fairly deadly.
Come to think of it, so do the PTs.
Fades take more damage, which buys smaller Kharaa time to close and attack.
But hell, why am I even saying this?
Your "math" is based from the start on an opinion. Hardly a solid foundation.
And just as an observation, skulks die a lot. This gives up to 3 res per shot to the marines. Fades die rarely. This is good from a fiscal perspective. Try looking at the res control equation before you start giving us formulae that prove Fade efficacy.
Although I'd be tempted to agree with the idea that the Fade swipe is a little weak for my taste. Of course, make the fade too uber and you get L0 marines Vs 1 undefeatable early fade. GG.
So suppose the fade is good, but too expensive for what you get. That would mean that the skulk is a more optimal way to spend resources, but it takes far more practice to get this much use out of the skulk. So the fade would be for moderately skilled people.
The other possibility is that a fade master is alot more dangerous than a skulk master. So for some situations an un-optimal use of resources could be justified.
Unoptimal resource use is meaningless if the player has res to spare. And what about just going Onos? Onos is a different playstyle than a fade or skulk, so spending twice the res may be a waste, if you get more use out of the fade's playstyle.
There is also the acid rocket. Don't ya think that with acid rocket, blink is alot more useful because you can snipe(add in scent of fear too!), and then run, rather than having to melee and run? And don't go assuming that acid rocket is rarely used, there is no gurantees that an alien team with 3 hives is dominating the marines. It's possible the marines have decent res flow after all.
Although, I think it would be better to have acid rocket at 2nd hive, metabolize at 3rd. Lerks going to 20 res, fades to 40, would be pretty cool. But I'm not sure if that's balanced. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
What about leap being as good as blink? I'm not sure about this. How possible is it to hit a fade in mid-blink, if people have been hit in mid-blink, how do they know it wasn't just a bug, or that they got hit when they just came out of blink(but were still going fast)? Can't the fade cover a larger total distance for the same energy expenditure as leap?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Is this based on Hollywood movies? Since when did we take Hollywood movies as actual fact sources? Has anyone documented marines with nano enhancements fighting alien menaces with hi tech guns and armor? I believe not. Then neither you or I know whats the "right way" to do it. Just because in the aliens movie all the guys stood still firing while the aliens rushed at them doesnt mean everyone does or the TSA marines do. What proof do you have? MOVIES? BOOKS?
You need proof, facts, REAL facts, PROVEN facts.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On one hand Hollywood is a piece of ****, but on the otherhand, assuming that ANYTHING goes just because Hollywood movies(and books) are the only sources about that topic, is just plain wrong.
Oh and Monkeybonk, please don't go reporting people to mods just because you don't agree with their responses in "your' thread. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Hell, just look at the LEGS on a fade. I don't care if they can "blink" or not... those things should be able to run faster and jump higher than a lot of things <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
It's eminently frustrating to have to chase down a marine who turns and runs when i can barely go faster than he can, and blinking after him means that on arrival i'll have about 5 good swipes before i'm totally drained (leaving me no real good escape route). I do NOT want to see the return of the 1 or 2 hive acid rocket (turned fades in 1.04 into soldiers from TFC, nothing more), but a change to the way that they handle without blinking would be nice.
Explain to me why a pitbull with a huge jaw does MORE damage to something than a 7 foot tall wall of muscle and carapace with huge, spiky claws?
Wow this is really 50/50. Some think it's fine, others think it's way to expensive for what you get. Makes me wonder how many that think it's fine play marines exclusively...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh and Monkeybonk, please don't go reporting people to mods just because you don't agree with their responses in "your' thread.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
His posts were continuously off-topic to the point of derailing the thread.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->On one hand Hollywood is a piece of ****, but on the otherhand, assuming that ANYTHING goes just because Hollywood movies(and books) are the only sources about that topic, is just plain wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS was modeled for that gritty sci-fi 'Aliens' feel, and it accomplished this. Except marine jumping is just silly.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hell, just look at the LEGS on a fade. I don't care if they can "blink" or not... those things should be able to run faster and jump higher than a lot of things <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly, without celerity, fades suffer... a LOT. If you gave the fade MUCH better jumping capabilities, it'd definately be unique, and faster running. Why does something that weighs about 160 pounds move as fast as a 2 ton cow?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well, the worlds best NS players seem to think the Fade is fairly deadly.
Come to think of it, so do the PTs.
Fades take more damage, which buys smaller Kharaa time to close and attack.
But hell, why am I even saying this?
Your "math" is based from the start on an opinion. Hardly a solid foundation.
And just as an observation, skulks die a lot. This gives up to 3 res per shot to the marines. Fades die rarely. This is good from a fiscal perspective. Try looking at the res control equation before you start giving us formulae that prove Fade efficacy.
Although I'd be tempted to agree with the idea that the Fade swipe is a little weak for my taste. Of course, make the fade too uber and you get L0 marines Vs 1 undefeatable early fade. GG. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The same way (apparently) remeption + onos is 'unbalanced'? Please, if you're 'always right', then why is Flayra making a 2.01 patch? Furthermore, my 'math' is fact. I was curious, and spent half an hour working out how weak a fade is. To be frank, I didn't plan on doing the swipe damage test at all, but after I found out that the footspeed truely sucks, I decided to find out if it was all around.
But you're right: Make it too strong and it shows up too early. This is the problem with 2.0. Alien res model REQUIRES tons of nodes, and the marine model requires only a handful. However, aliens can save theirs up instead of making RTs. Furthermore, the res-for-kills means that you can 'landslide' a victory by attrition. The more expensive units kill more, thus getting you more res, so when you die, you can become a powerful unit again. That's why I don't like the res for kills. If res-for-kills was exclusively alien, then I'd say: Start aliens with only 10 resources, or even 5, and allow them to win the war vs. marines by eating them.
I'd be happy if you gave the fade enhanced running and jumping properties, as well as a stronger swipe attack.
To catch up and capture marines in my loving hug, I can barely do it. If I use blink, they'll hear me easilly, thus ruining this 'assassin', and there's a VERY high chance I'll slide off the marine and end up in FRONT of him (Can't count how many times I've done that). I almost always use celerity because I hate telling every marine in the area "HERE I AM" when I made that wonderful 'blink' sound.
To attack, I drain a lot of stamina blinking in, a lot of stamina delivering skulk bites, and a lot of stamina leaving. This mean adreneline is pretty much a MUST for fades.
Furthermore, fades make a LOT of noise, grunting, attacking, growling, blinking. Silence is also good for a fade.
The fade benefits the most from a movement chamber, the trouble is deciding what upgrade. It usually comes down to celerity or adreneline, and if it had better melee and foot speed, it'd be less of a decision to make.
<!--QuoteBegin--Grendel+Aug 9 2003, 12:31 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Aug 9 2003, 12:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well, the worlds best NS players seem to think the Fade is fairly deadly.
Come to think of it, so do the PTs. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, that's a good point, but... they are the world's best NS players. Wouldn't the fade naturally be deadly in skilled hands? I'm pretty good with it, and using hit and run I rack up a good number of kills before someone takes me down (usually with a shotgun, or a missed blink).
The problem is, it's just not very unique. It hasn't got that special flavor of pwn that would make it a really useful evolution. Sure, it can take more hits than a skulk, and it is comparably maneuverable, but I think the ideas here would make it great. Maybe it's balanced right now, but it's not as much fun in my opinion. Increasing the run speed, jump height and attack speed would make the fade a lot more fun to play, and if it requires a resource cost increase to make it balanced so be it.
but seriously the fade isn't as powerful as you think,a good player knows his flaws and tries to make up for it,and hence become deadlier,but in th hands of someone who is just new or are still stuck in the 104 mindset,or even having players that were too used to the old blink (I was :/)
But then there is balancing issues,if we buff up swipe/Acid Rocket damage,people would instantly save up or a Fade,not Onos.not a particularly bad thing,but still. And if we decrease its cost,it would be MUCH more easier to get,and possibly get their res wasted due to their vulnerability
The only gripe I have is that the Fade can't evade turrets for some reason,I tried blinking into a marine base and wound up right next to their CC,but wounded because of Blink.Fades would be an alternate answer to turret farms because it may end the stalemates,but I don't know what is the possible outcome if it does happen....the other thing I noticed is that I never got cloaked when I blinked....I thought Fades were supposed to become slightly transparent :/
But the truth,I sadly have to say,is that we will never know what happens next.We can never take into account EVERYTHING that happens after a change.Look at the Devour/Redemption trick,it was an oversight that happened.Same thing will happen if we try to change the Fade into something more stronger
Will it become an endgame lifeform like it was?Will it become a useless lifeform that can die too easily?The truth is we will not know unless Flayra implements these changes and releases it.But there WILL be an oversight,there's no doubt about that.
Rave is right, the only way to see would be to test, not speculate on fade usage.
- Quicker running, and higher jumping.
- Ability to jump off of walls. (Someone did it in Tribes2. If you can do it in Tribes2, it's more then possible to do in Half-Life). This would make the fade more effective, when combined with enhanced jumping, in larger areas for getting behind marines. Kung Fu! Hiya!
- Swipe does 90 damage, at least. (Do I really need to explain why?)
- Blink makes you invisible and produces a particle cloud effect to confuse enemies, allowing you to run faster. Possibly allow immortality when invisible. (I miss the blue haze, and I should not be able to be shot by turrets when blinking!)
- Metabolize heals more, just a bit. The stamina drain, noise, and slow speed of this isn't really worth 2 hives.
I'd be happy with this, if you put all that in and maybe upped the cost to 60. The fade would then be a more effective mid-range fighter. Swipe could go as high as 100 damage, and still be beat by gore, because of gore's anti-structure properties.
I don't like the Fade because he steps too much on the skulk's territory. I'd rather go gorge or lerk. There's not all that much difference from leaping and blinking. Both are hit and run. Neither contributes anything to a "team" assault aside from muscle. I think a boost in its initial movement speed would be great, but maybe a few changes to make it more of an assassin class? Maybe swipe could do x1.5 damage from behind on players (which would not only reward stealth tactics, but encourage players to master blink, so they can get around to the back of the marine).
<!--QuoteBegin--Snidely+Aug 9 2003, 02:50 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely @ Aug 9 2003, 02:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Maybe swipe could do x1.5 damage from behind on players (which would not only reward stealth tactics, but encourage players to master blink, so they can get around to the back of the marine). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You forget the thing that they haven't implemented multiple hitboxes as of yet.
BTW,I'd agree with the speed,but the jumping I'm not really sure....maybe if the Ns dev team would lower the energy cost for Blink just a little bit just like Lerk flying,people would be encouraged to use Blink more.
Nowadays I see too many people getting Celerity and NOT use blink.I for 1 use both of them to great effectiveness and took out commchair in ns_lost.Same position,heavy Gl spam,turret farms and whatnot.Through all that noise they didn't know I was at it swiping my way through their CC <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
But I had an advantage that the background was similar to the color of Fade skin.If it were hera I would be shredded by their HMGs on standby (yes they have them)
BTW,I like your blink suggestion looks good enough to encourage being used,but make it so that the Fade is 90% cloaked.At high speeds it's extremely easy to miss a Fade blinking through at 90% opacity.
Just my 2 cents.
PS : I also miss the particle effect <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
I do for sure agree on one thing though. Blinked fades should be safe from turret farms. I've never tried turret blinking, so maybe it's better than just leaping over turrets as a skulk.
Comments
A marine RT costs 22 res, alien RT only 15 res.
woot woot!!!!!!! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
First off, judging by pure stats, I do think that Fade's are underpowered. Not by much, but they most certainly are.
Some things I dislike about the fade:
Metabolize is weak, make it regen like 35 hp a whack for the amount of energy it takes.
Fade Swipe Should deal 90. Remember, it wouldn't be like an onos as the onos does double to structures.
Second off, Ollj, you do realize how stupid you sound, right?
15 Alien res is WAY much more than 22 marine res. Wake up and smell the coffee, dude. It's a shared pool vs. team pool.
You need proof, facts, REAL facts, PROVEN facts.
You need proof, facts, REAL facts, PROVEN facts. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
OMG TEH NAWNO TEK IS R OVARPWRED IT R NOT REEL!
- Post reported, SOB.
And everyone (mainly the other 2 enemy factions) are saying it's fine. FACTS SHOW that both the Phoenix and the Fade are woefully underpowered compared to other weapons, and many people still refuse to believe it.
What's "more powerful"? Blink is worse then it was in 1.04 (Sure you don't get stuck, but it doesn't blink anymore, you just run fast at the cost of more stamina). They lost acid rocket and bile bomb's effectiveness. Minimap can be exploited to see non-cloaked fades waiting in ambush. Shotgun kills them in 2 hits, and the shotgun has been BEEFED since 1.04.
What is "more powerful" about them?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->run fast at the cost of more stamina<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You FLY fast at the cost of adrenaline. flying is different than running.
Frankly, you just suck in 2.0. Read the changelog, and try again.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->run fast at the cost of more stamina<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You FLY fast at the cost of adrenaline. flying is different than running.
Frankly, you just suck in 2.0. Read the changelog, and try again. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd rather get there instantly then 'fly'. By the way, skulk leap goes almost as fast as blink, so blink it's pretty pointless as 'fade specific'.
by the way now that its considered "flying" then why do they still call it "blink"? sure its more manueverable but it almost defeats the purpose of the name, im not being mr perfect over here either FYI
A skulk on 50 res has to know what's best for the <i>team</i>. That 50 res can be 4 chambers, or a hive, or 2 res nodes, or 4 OCs, or savings for an early onos, or it can be a Fade. In a teamplay situation, most of the non-Fade options are going to be better for the team, because they represent a more concrete investment. I'm not saying people can't do well with a Fade (i do resonably well with it) but I will say that the res they cost can be put to better use.
very very, wise words my friend
Personally, I'd like the swipe to do 90-100 damage. Give fades slightly faster footspeed (and perhaps a higher jump, just to be unique). Currently, level 3 marines chew through pretty much anything short of an Onos. Fades would be (since if you're NORMAL and drop a res tower right away) cropping up around the same time marine upgrades are, fades should be able to fight with level 1-2 marines and hold their own.
As for hit and run, sure a fade is good for that. Unless the marines 1) Look at the minimap. 2) Have ears, and 3) Have motion tracking. Then they all turn around and kill you. Quite quickly at that. Fades can take out 2 light marines easy. But when they walk around in groups of 4, fades are quickly mowed down.
Fades CAN'T do much damage, that's the POINT!
Their swipe is worse then the skulk bite. Their footspeed is worse then the skulks. This means that if the marine you're fighting actually (Gasp) moves, he can empty an entire clip into you before you can catch him.
More time? I'm always ALWAYS at the top of the killboard, and I rarely go onos. Even when people are onos, I'm at the top. I think I know what I'm talking about. All the n00bs are going to marines, and I think that's why people are saying the aliens are overpowered, but once the marines get their **** together, I think marines will be dominating the aliens. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, the worlds best NS players seem to think the Fade is fairly deadly.
Come to think of it, so do the PTs.
Fades take more damage, which buys smaller Kharaa time to close and attack.
But hell, why am I even saying this?
Your "math" is based from the start on an opinion. Hardly a solid foundation.
And just as an observation, skulks die a lot. This gives up to 3 res per shot to the marines. Fades die rarely. This is good from a fiscal perspective. Try looking at the res control equation before you start giving us formulae that prove Fade efficacy.
Although I'd be tempted to agree with the idea that the Fade swipe is a little weak for my taste. Of course, make the fade too uber and you get L0 marines Vs 1 undefeatable early fade. GG.
The other possibility is that a fade master is alot more dangerous than a skulk master. So for some situations an un-optimal use of resources could be justified.
Unoptimal resource use is meaningless if the player has res to spare. And what about just going Onos? Onos is a different playstyle than a fade or skulk, so spending twice the res may be a waste, if you get more use out of the fade's playstyle.
There is also the acid rocket. Don't ya think that with acid rocket, blink is alot more useful because you can snipe(add in scent of fear too!), and then run, rather than having to melee and run? And don't go assuming that acid rocket is rarely used, there is no gurantees that an alien team with 3 hives is dominating the marines. It's possible the marines have decent res flow after all.
Although, I think it would be better to have acid rocket at 2nd hive, metabolize at 3rd. Lerks going to 20 res, fades to 40, would be pretty cool. But I'm not sure if that's balanced. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
What about leap being as good as blink? I'm not sure about this. How possible is it to hit a fade in mid-blink, if people have been hit in mid-blink, how do they know it wasn't just a bug, or that they got hit when they just came out of blink(but were still going fast)? Can't the fade cover a larger total distance for the same energy expenditure as leap?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Is this based on Hollywood movies? Since when did we take Hollywood movies as actual fact sources? Has anyone documented marines with nano enhancements fighting alien menaces with hi tech guns and armor? I believe not. Then neither you or I know whats the "right way" to do it. Just because in the aliens movie all the guys stood still firing while the aliens rushed at them doesnt mean everyone does or the TSA marines do. What proof do you have? MOVIES? BOOKS?
You need proof, facts, REAL facts, PROVEN facts.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On one hand Hollywood is a piece of ****, but on the otherhand, assuming that ANYTHING goes just because Hollywood movies(and books) are the only sources about that topic, is just plain wrong.
Oh and Monkeybonk, please don't go reporting people to mods just because you don't agree with their responses in "your' thread. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
It's eminently frustrating to have to chase down a marine who turns and runs when i can barely go faster than he can, and blinking after him means that on arrival i'll have about 5 good swipes before i'm totally drained (leaving me no real good escape route). I do NOT want to see the return of the 1 or 2 hive acid rocket (turned fades in 1.04 into soldiers from TFC, nothing more), but a change to the way that they handle without blinking would be nice.
Explain to me why a pitbull with a huge jaw does MORE damage to something than a 7 foot tall wall of muscle and carapace with huge, spiky claws?
He can get in and out FAST.
Those 2 reasons are good enough. Just learn a different set of skills. You have to hit them while they are reloading/shooting another direction.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh and Monkeybonk, please don't go reporting people to mods just because you don't agree with their responses in "your' thread.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
His posts were continuously off-topic to the point of derailing the thread.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->On one hand Hollywood is a piece of ****, but on the otherhand, assuming that ANYTHING goes just because Hollywood movies(and books) are the only sources about that topic, is just plain wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS was modeled for that gritty sci-fi 'Aliens' feel, and it accomplished this. Except marine jumping is just silly.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hell, just look at the LEGS on a fade. I don't care if they can "blink" or not... those things should be able to run faster and jump higher than a lot of things <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly, without celerity, fades suffer... a LOT. If you gave the fade MUCH better jumping capabilities, it'd definately be unique, and faster running. Why does something that weighs about 160 pounds move as fast as a 2 ton cow?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well, the worlds best NS players seem to think the Fade is fairly deadly.
Come to think of it, so do the PTs.
Fades take more damage, which buys smaller Kharaa time to close and attack.
But hell, why am I even saying this?
Your "math" is based from the start on an opinion. Hardly a solid foundation.
And just as an observation, skulks die a lot. This gives up to 3 res per shot to the marines. Fades die rarely. This is good from a fiscal perspective. Try looking at the res control equation before you start giving us formulae that prove Fade efficacy.
Although I'd be tempted to agree with the idea that the Fade swipe is a little weak for my taste. Of course, make the fade too uber and you get L0 marines Vs 1 undefeatable early fade. GG. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The same way (apparently) remeption + onos is 'unbalanced'? Please, if you're 'always right', then why is Flayra making a 2.01 patch? Furthermore, my 'math' is fact. I was curious, and spent half an hour working out how weak a fade is. To be frank, I didn't plan on doing the swipe damage test at all, but after I found out that the footspeed truely sucks, I decided to find out if it was all around.
But you're right: Make it too strong and it shows up too early. This is the problem with 2.0. Alien res model REQUIRES tons of nodes, and the marine model requires only a handful. However, aliens can save theirs up instead of making RTs. Furthermore, the res-for-kills means that you can 'landslide' a victory by attrition. The more expensive units kill more, thus getting you more res, so when you die, you can become a powerful unit again. That's why I don't like the res for kills. If res-for-kills was exclusively alien, then I'd say: Start aliens with only 10 resources, or even 5, and allow them to win the war vs. marines by eating them.
I'd be happy if you gave the fade enhanced running and jumping properties, as well as a stronger swipe attack.
To catch up and capture marines in my loving hug, I can barely do it. If I use blink, they'll hear me easilly, thus ruining this 'assassin', and there's a VERY high chance I'll slide off the marine and end up in FRONT of him (Can't count how many times I've done that). I almost always use celerity because I hate telling every marine in the area "HERE I AM" when I made that wonderful 'blink' sound.
To attack, I drain a lot of stamina blinking in, a lot of stamina delivering skulk bites, and a lot of stamina leaving. This mean adreneline is pretty much a MUST for fades.
Furthermore, fades make a LOT of noise, grunting, attacking, growling, blinking. Silence is also good for a fade.
The fade benefits the most from a movement chamber, the trouble is deciding what upgrade. It usually comes down to celerity or adreneline, and if it had better melee and foot speed, it'd be less of a decision to make.
Come to think of it, so do the PTs. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, that's a good point, but... they are the world's best NS players. Wouldn't the fade naturally be deadly in skilled hands? I'm pretty good with it, and using hit and run I rack up a good number of kills before someone takes me down (usually with a shotgun, or a missed blink).
The problem is, it's just not very unique. It hasn't got that special flavor of pwn that would make it a really useful evolution. Sure, it can take more hits than a skulk, and it is comparably maneuverable, but I think the ideas here would make it great. Maybe it's balanced right now, but it's not as much fun in my opinion. Increasing the run speed, jump height and attack speed would make the fade a lot more fun to play, and if it requires a resource cost increase to make it balanced so be it.
What'd be neat-o is if they made it so you could rebound off walls...
but seriously the fade isn't as powerful as you think,a good player knows his flaws and tries to make up for it,and hence become deadlier,but in th hands of someone who is just new or are still stuck in the 104 mindset,or even having players that were too used to the old blink (I was :/)
But then there is balancing issues,if we buff up swipe/Acid Rocket damage,people would instantly save up or a Fade,not Onos.not a particularly bad thing,but still.
And if we decrease its cost,it would be MUCH more easier to get,and possibly get their res wasted due to their vulnerability
The only gripe I have is that the Fade can't evade turrets for some reason,I tried blinking into a marine base and wound up right next to their CC,but wounded because of Blink.Fades would be an alternate answer to turret farms because it may end the stalemates,but I don't know what is the possible outcome if it does happen....the other thing I noticed is that I never got cloaked when I blinked....I thought Fades were supposed to become slightly transparent :/
But the truth,I sadly have to say,is that we will never know what happens next.We can never take into account EVERYTHING that happens after a change.Look at the Devour/Redemption trick,it was an oversight that happened.Same thing will happen if we try to change the Fade into something more stronger
Will it become an endgame lifeform like it was?Will it become a useless lifeform that can die too easily?The truth is we will not know unless Flayra implements these changes and releases it.But there WILL be an oversight,there's no doubt about that.
- Quicker running, and higher jumping.
- Ability to jump off of walls. (Someone did it in Tribes2. If you can do it in Tribes2, it's more then possible to do in Half-Life). This would make the fade more effective, when combined with enhanced jumping, in larger areas for getting behind marines. Kung Fu! Hiya!
- Swipe does 90 damage, at least. (Do I really need to explain why?)
- Blink makes you invisible and produces a particle cloud effect to confuse enemies, allowing you to run faster. Possibly allow immortality when invisible. (I miss the blue haze, and I should not be able to be shot by turrets when blinking!)
- Metabolize heals more, just a bit. The stamina drain, noise, and slow speed of this isn't really worth 2 hives.
I'd be happy with this, if you put all that in and maybe upped the cost to 60. The fade would then be a more effective mid-range fighter. Swipe could go as high as 100 damage, and still be beat by gore, because of gore's anti-structure properties.
You forget the thing that they haven't implemented multiple hitboxes as of yet.
BTW,I'd agree with the speed,but the jumping I'm not really sure....maybe if the Ns dev team would lower the energy cost for Blink just a little bit just like Lerk flying,people would be encouraged to use Blink more.
Nowadays I see too many people getting Celerity and NOT use blink.I for 1 use both of them to great effectiveness and took out commchair in ns_lost.Same position,heavy Gl spam,turret farms and whatnot.Through all that noise they didn't know I was at it swiping my way through their CC <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
But I had an advantage that the background was similar to the color of Fade skin.If it were hera I would be shredded by their HMGs on standby (yes they have them)
BTW,I like your blink suggestion looks good enough to encourage being used,but make it so that the Fade is 90% cloaked.At high speeds it's extremely easy to miss a Fade blinking through at 90% opacity.
Just my 2 cents.
PS : I also miss the particle effect <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->