<!--QuoteBegin--lolfighter+Aug 13 2003, 07:19 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (lolfighter @ Aug 13 2003, 07:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Monkeybonk+Aug 14 2003, 02:09 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Monkeybonk @ Aug 14 2003, 02:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I can't think of a single pub game *A SINGLE ONE* where more then 2 or 3 people have gone fade. Even at the endgame, everyone's either lerk, onos, or skulk.[...]<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Simple. It's the general consensus that the Fade is hard to play, yet rewarding when done right. SOOO, most people will want to stay with the Pwnos, as it's a lot easier to get some kills with. Nevermind it's broad as a barn, stomped people can't shoot you. The Fade has to be a little craftier. After all, the Fade is a lot faster and maneuverable than the Onos, yet costs less. It's gotta have some drawbacks. As for ranged weapons, the aliens have spikes against marines and bilebomb against buildings. Granted, spikes won't do much against Heavy Armor, but that's why it's called <u>armor</u>. Flay decided that the Fade's not an artillery unit anymore (as I doubt it was ever intended to be), but a fader now. It fades in, slashes, fades out. Try it. Just try. And if it doesn't work for you, go Pwnos instead and eat marine chow. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Bilebomb is anything *BUT* a 'ranged attack'.
Fader? Wouldn't some sort of actual 'fade-like' ability have cemented this in then? They're visible when they blink, their attacks suck, they can't catch up to running bunnyhopping marines... metabolize? Shouldn't an alien that is supposed to be (Apparently) a lithe assassin actually be able to manuver more then a marine can? He can't. Shouldn't a lithe assassin have some sort of inate stealth ability, or a feature that will allow him to cloak without sensory, even wtihin the range of an observatory? Metabolize? Please, for the love of god, if he's used how you people say he is (Killing 1 marine in a group every 30 seconds) then, why oh why, would he even NEED an ability to HEAL damage? Why is it so strong and why does it have a post-combat-oriented hive 2 ability? Why does it not have a SINGLE stealth-like feature? I mean, they even make more noise then any other alien!
What makes you believe the payoff is low for a good Fade? From your posts I deducted that you hardly ever go Fade, so how can you tell? Do you mean to say that you have completely mastered the Fade now and still get owned? In that case, I bow to you, the servers you play on must be at very high skill levels.
<!--QuoteBegin--lolfighter+Aug 13 2003, 07:29 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (lolfighter @ Aug 13 2003, 07:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What makes you believe the payoff is low for a good Fade? From your posts I deducted that you hardly ever go Fade, so how can you tell? Do you mean to say that you have completely mastered the Fade now and still get owned? In that case, I bow to you, the servers you play on must be at very high skill levels. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Read again: For 50 resources I get skulk bite and enhanced leap. Weeeee...
cos they all like onos <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--lolfighter+Aug 14 2003, 12:19 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (lolfighter @ Aug 14 2003, 12:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Simple. It's the general consensus that the Fade is hard to play, yet rewarding when done right. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> To be a good fade takes massive skill - and even if it is done right as you say, they can still drop like flies. One shotty marine that is tier 2 (which when I am playing, by the time we see fades we are at the very least weapon 2/armor1 ) can match a fade. The shotty is a word of pain - and the fade just cant take that much abuse - if the shotty marine has a partner, the fade should just retreat asap. I know I'd rather be a skulk - they are harder to hit and you can get just about the same results. If I want to evolve up into something it is usually lerk. They are able to do so much more than fades, I think. The ability to spore an entire hallway, making passing without HA nearly impossible - and then if HA are seen the ability to umbra the crap out of skulks/other fades/onos is a much more viable thing to me.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Their Hive 3 ability is almost as stupid as making 'web' hive 3. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What would you like the gorges hive 3 ability to be? Lets see, at hive 1 you have spit and heal spray - that is to defend yourself and assist your teammates. At hive 2 you have bile bomb - that clears up any possible hive lockdown that is happening, and rips apart any electrified res nodes. Would you like the 3rd hive ability to be bile bomb? That way you would be unable to clear anything out? Changing the third hive ability to webs makes sense - it is very powerful - too powerful for early game use w/o a nerf - and keeping in mind that the aliens need a sure fire way to clear up TF spam at hive 2 - there is no other place for it. You might make the argument that the fade should have bile bomb again - at hive two or three - but that would be just insanity. The fade would be far to overpowered with the ability to blink. Imagine how fast everyone would complain if the fades could blink to the back of a marine base, bile the crap out of it, and blink out - have about 2 or 3 guys doing this and it becomes impossible for marines to do anything short of worrying about their base. The bile bomb must be on a alien evolution that is slow and defenseless - its the only way to really balance its devastating power. It also must be available mid-game, thereby pushing webs back to hive 3. The choice really wasn’t too stupid, huh?
For fifty res you get swipe and blink, as well as increased toughness. Blink is a good deal better than leap, as it can be used more accurately in close combat. A Fade blinking around randomly empties magazines without really getting hit much. Reloading time is slashing time. At hive two you'll have metabolise. This saves you getting regen (if you have DCs at all, Fades are tailored towards SC/MC imho). At hive three you have acid rocket, which isn't so killer as it was previously, but still does more damage than spike, and can thus threaten those Heavies you can't get close to. Yes, shotguns are deadly to a Fade. So? Jetpacks can be used to deadly effect against an Onos too, and a JP is what? 20 res? An Onos is 100 res, and yet it can't catch jetpackers nor run from them. Why is nobody crying imbalance? Because the jetpack is the counter to Onos. So is the shotgun. Yes, the shotgun incidentally is also the counter to Fades. If the enemy is owning you with shotguns, get a Lerk to spore/spike them to death. Once they stop using shotguns, your Fades are good to go.
<!--QuoteBegin--lolfighter+Aug 13 2003, 07:01 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (lolfighter @ Aug 13 2003, 07:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You also cannot compare it to a Heavy. Is speed worth nothing? The Fade can blink around ten times as fast as a Heavy can ever run. It can even fly. It can use vents. You can't compare everything with only res cost, or getting an Onos should be worth much more than getting two hives. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> WHy did you even try this argument? You knew I was going to come back with this:
Jetpacks. Faster mobility, MUCH faster mobility, go through vents, and you can fly. Oh, and also only 25% of the alien's abilities can affect you... I even counted 'Leap' just to be fair.
<!--QuoteBegin--Monkeybonk+Aug 14 2003, 02:45 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Monkeybonk @ Aug 14 2003, 02:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->WHy did you even try this argument? You knew I was going to come back with this:
Jetpacks. Faster mobility, MUCH faster mobility, go through vents, and you can fly. Oh, and also only 25% of the alien's abilities can affect you... I even counted 'Leap' just to be fair.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Your point being?
<!--QuoteBegin--lolfighter+Aug 14 2003, 12:44 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (lolfighter @ Aug 14 2003, 12:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yes, shotguns are deadly to a Fade. So? Jetpacks can be used to deadly effect against an Onos too, and a JP is what? 20 res? An Onos is 100 res, and yet it can't catch jetpackers nor run from them. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It is 10x easier to get a shotgun (all you need is an armory) than it is to get a jetpack. (upgraded armory - thats 35 res and 3 mins,then a arms lab for what? 45? then you have to drop the proto for a big ol' for 40 (or 45?) then upgrade JP research for 35 res.) and thus - fades are much much more easily countered than an Onos is. (not to mention I rarly see a pub where the comm got jetpacks)
<!--QuoteBegin--lolfighter+Aug 13 2003, 07:47 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (lolfighter @ Aug 13 2003, 07:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Monkeybonk+Aug 14 2003, 02:45 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Monkeybonk @ Aug 14 2003, 02:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->WHy did you even try this argument? You knew I was going to come back with this:
Jetpacks. Faster mobility, MUCH faster mobility, go through vents, and you can fly. Oh, and also only 25% of the alien's abilities can affect you... I even counted 'Leap' just to be fair.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Your point being? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The point is that the aliens have no counter to any marine that is cost effective. The only way they can seemingly counter ANY marine tactic is to spend insurrmountable amounts of resources and 20 minutes organizing a patton-like assault to counter it. Marines just spend a few res and can counter 75% of alien attacks easilly.
20 res jetpacks vs. 30 res lerk
50 res fade vs. 10 res shotgun
100 res onos vs. 10 (Or was it 15?) res mine, or 30 res jet/shotgun
150 res HA train vs. 200 res onii, or 160 res onos w/ Lerks umbra
EDIT: Keep in mind the marines SHARE resources, so coming up with these counters is MUCH easier, and MUCH more effective.
<!--QuoteBegin--SentrySteve+Aug 13 2003, 07:52 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SentrySteve @ Aug 13 2003, 07:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--lolfighter+Aug 14 2003, 12:44 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (lolfighter @ Aug 14 2003, 12:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yes, shotguns are deadly to a Fade. So? Jetpacks can be used to deadly effect against an Onos too, and a JP is what? 20 res? An Onos is 100 res, and yet it can't catch jetpackers nor run from them. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It is 10x easier to get a shotgun (all you need is an armory) than it is to get a jetpack. (upgraded armory - thats 35 res and 3 mins, then you have to drop the proto for a big ol' for 40 (or 45?) then upgrade JP research for 35 res.) and thus - fades are much much more easily countered than an Onos is. (not to mention I rarly see a pub where the comm got jetpacks) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> True, and also aliens need more hives to get half of their attacks, and there's more to a Hive then just spending 35 resources. It effectively allows the marines completely immunity to 25% of the alien abilities because they can hold a hive. Furthermore, marines share resources, so scraping together enough resources for a shotgun or a jetpack is much easier then having 10 aliens each with 10 res.
So what you're telling me is that since marines can easily counter everything the aliens do with almost no resources, they're consistently pulling off win after win after win? Funny, on the servers where I play, aliens win most of the time. Are we both playing 2.0?
<!--QuoteBegin--lolfighter+Aug 13 2003, 08:05 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (lolfighter @ Aug 13 2003, 08:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So what you're telling me is that since marines can easily counter everything the aliens do with almost no resources, they're consistently pulling off win after win after win? Funny, on the servers where I play, aliens win most of the time. Are we both playing 2.0? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh please, use that misfirng mush of matter in your head and you'd realize 2 things:
1) Most marine commanders still play like it's 1.04. They're still using crappy tactics that don't work.
2) Most marine teams have nothing but n00bs on them.
I, as well as almost everyone here, can tell you that a good 2.0 commander with an obedient marine team WILL win most games. I've seen it happen. Repeatedly. No matter what we did we lost 8 games straight. The commander eventually left and the marines collapsed. That's the only balance factor the marines have" The reliance on a good commander.
Maybe you haven't noticed the turret farms that marines can put up consisting of 40 turrets. FROM ONE RESOURCE NODE. Can aliens do that? Not at all.
<!--QuoteBegin--Monkeybonk+Aug 14 2003, 01:02 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Monkeybonk @ Aug 14 2003, 01:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> True, and also aliens need more hives to get half of their attacks, and there's more to a Hive then just spending 35 resources. It effectively allows the marines completely immunity to 25% of the alien abilities because they can hold a hive. Furthermore, marines share resources, so scraping together enough resources for a shotgun or a jetpack is much easier then having 10 aliens each with 10 res. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The debate here is over the fade. Hive 1 gives the fade swipe and blink, and seeing how if the aliens have 3 hives the game is usually over, this is limited to two hive vs tier 2 or even 1 marines. Having two hives gives the fade nothing offensive so your "and also aliens need more hives to get half of their attacks" point is invalid. I dont really know what I'd like to see changed, maybe a slight increase in armor, but I still stand on my point of thinking that the fade is just a very expensive skulk (at the hive 2 level).
<!--QuoteBegin--SentrySteve+Aug 13 2003, 08:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SentrySteve @ Aug 13 2003, 08:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Monkeybonk+Aug 14 2003, 01:02 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Monkeybonk @ Aug 14 2003, 01:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> True, and also aliens need more hives to get half of their attacks, and there's more to a Hive then just spending 35 resources. It effectively allows the marines completely immunity to 25% of the alien abilities because they can hold a hive. Furthermore, marines share resources, so scraping together enough resources for a shotgun or a jetpack is much easier then having 10 aliens each with 10 res. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The debate here is over the fade. Hive 1 gives the fade swipe and blink, and seeing how if the aliens have 3 hives the game is usually over, this is limited to two hive vs tier 2 or even 1 marines. Having two hives gives the fade nothing offensive so your "and also aliens need more hives to get half of their attacks" point is invalid. I dont really know what I'd like to see changed, maybe a slight increase in armor, but I still stand on my point of thinking that the fade is just a very expensive skulk (at the hive 2 level). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> True, it's over the fade, but my argument stems from the fact that Fades cost 50 resources for literally, **** on two legs.
<!--QuoteBegin--Monkeybonk+Aug 14 2003, 03:06 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Monkeybonk @ Aug 14 2003, 03:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh please, use that misfirng mush of matter in your head and you'd realize 2 things:
1) Most marine commanders still play like it's 1.04. They're still using crappy tactics that don't work.
2) Most marine teams have nothing but n00bs on them.
I, as well as almost everyone here, can tell you that a good 2.0 commander with an obedient marine team WILL win most games. I've seen it happen. Repeatedly. No matter what we did we lost 8 games straight. The commander eventually left and the marines collapsed. That's the only balance factor the marines have" The reliance on a good commander.
Maybe you haven't noticed the turret farms that marines can put up consisting of 40 turrets. FROM ONE RESOURCE NODE. Can aliens do that? Not at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> First off, no insults please. If you want your arguments to have merit, insulting me is not the way to go. Let's stay civil and we might get something useful out of this thread yet.
Yes, a good rine team will kill the aliens more often than not. The aliens are also noobs though, small wonder they're getting owned. In most of the games that rines win, they do so by denying the aliens res (a very good strategy). Thus aliens don't even have the res to go Fade. You can't blame the Fade for this if it never even enters the game.
I think the problem is in the mentality of the players. When I play marine, I see fades WALKING down long corridors to come at a squad of me and and two other marines. People still think fades are the walking, long ranged tanks they used to be. Now, fades pretty much are big skulks. Stronger, more hp, faster (BLINK EVERYWHERE YOU GO!), and have built in regen. Stick to the shadows and cloak, kill off the end of the line of rines, heal, blink up to the rest and slaughter. Or use scent of fear and quickly respond to any silly rambos. If you circle strafe, you can pretty easily take down a ha/hmg provided he doesn't have more than one other marine around. Don't even get me started on fades in packs. Play fade like an upgraded skulk.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I, as well as almost everyone here, can tell you that a good 2.0 commander with an obedient marine team WILL win most games.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Firstly, I will have to go into the back room now and repair my bullsh1t detector because it blew up when I read this.
Secondly, what's up with this "You're still playing 1.04" argument that any idiot that can't actually support his outrageous claims with *arguments* or *facts* spout out?
I've commed a lot of 2.0 games and I think at most I have had *one* rambo on the team. Usually everyone follows orders, goes to waypoints and sticks together. Up to half the team are usually excellent shooters and the rest is at least average. I use pretty much all the strategies available to Marines that are still viable and I am overall a pretty decent COM. Not the worlds greatest or an exceptional god-like COM (as I assume you are), but decent.
Now I lose most of the games. I would say I've won at most 1/3 of the games I have commed. The majority of those due to Aliens picking sensory first, the other due to poor teamwork on Aliens team. I'm not saying my Marines didn't do good, they did excellent everytime, even when we lost. That's why I don't "credit" the Marines, because us winning is depending on aliens screwing up in 90% of the cases. Now please don't be a snotty nose punk and say that I either play 1.04 or with n00b Marines because those who know me can testify that is not the case. If you don't believe me, join me on the server (PM for IP) and look for yourself. I'm pretty sure you will find the amount of skill, teamwork and tactics at the very least on par with yours.
Now, back to the Fade topic. Seems like people are arguing past eachother here, let me clarify:
The fade is not "bad" or "useless", it is just not a very good investment most of the time. You have to compare it to two things, the skulk (which is free) and the Onos (which costs the same as two fades). If I could chose to *spawn* as a Fade at no cost I would, but spending 50 resources to evolve into one forces me to compare it with the free offer.
I would get more kills and do more damage as a Fade then as a skulk, but not enough to justify the 50 res spent. If you happen to be an extremely good Fade (or an abysmal skulk and decent Fade I guess), it might be worth it, but for most people it isn't.
Yes, the Fade is a lot of fun. I love blinking. I only go Fade in two situations though. When Marines have multiple elec res nodes, so I can take them down, or when we have 3 hives and the Marines are entrenched in a certain Manner (making it impractical to go Onos).
Currently, I believe that the Fade isn't cost effective. <b>Note: Being cost ineffective and bad are two different things.</b> Fades can indeed be used to good effect. But is that effect something that couldn't be delivered by Skulks, Lerks or Gorges?
As a lifeform that most have proclaimed as hit and run, does it offer benefits worth the 54 res? I say 54, since if you're spending the res on a Fade, you'll probably upgrade it too. I don't believe it does. Blink can be seen and heard, reducing stealth, a virtual requirement for hit and run aliens. No other aliens suffers so much from a lack of movement chambers. Lerks are better at dealing with shotgunners. MT appears fairly early and really hinders hit and run tactics. Bilebomb can take out structures, even around corners with splash damage so the Gorge doesn't necessarily have to expose themselves.
There are two more questions I'd like to put to the posters.
1. Why do some of those who like the 2.0 Fade assume that those that don't like it don't know how to play it? 2. If the Fade is cost ineffective or just flat out unbalanced, what could be done to balance it?
<!--QuoteBegin--Stoneburg+Aug 13 2003, 08:36 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Stoneburg @ Aug 13 2003, 08:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I, as well as almost everyone here, can tell you that a good 2.0 commander with an obedient marine team WILL win most games.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Firstly, I will have to go into the back room now and repair my bullsh1t detector because it blew up when I read this.
Secondly, what's up with this "You're still playing 1.04" argument that any idiot that can't actually support his outrageous claims with *arguments* or *facts* spout out?
I've commed a lot of 2.0 games and I think at most I have had *one* rambo on the team. Usually everyone follows orders, goes to waypoints and sticks together. Up to half the team are usually excellent shooters and the rest is at least average. I use pretty much all the strategies available to Marines that are still viable and I am overall a pretty decent COM. Not the worlds greatest or an exceptional god-like COM (as I assume you are), but decent.
Now I lose most of the games. I would say I've won at most 1/3 of the games I have commed. The majority of those due to Aliens picking sensory first, the other due to poor teamwork on Aliens team. I'm not saying my Marines didn't do good, they did excellent everytime, even when we lost. That's why I don't "credit" the Marines, because us winning is depending on aliens screwing up in 90% of the cases. Now please don't be a snotty nose punk and say that I either play 1.04 or with n00b Marines because those who know me can testify that is not the case. If you don't believe me, join me on the server (PM for IP) and look for yourself. I'm pretty sure you will find the amount of skill, teamwork and tactics at the very least on par with yours.
Now, back to the Fade topic. Seems like people are arguing past eachother here, let me clarify:
The fade is not "bad" or "useless", it is just not a very good investment most of the time. You have to compare it to two things, the skulk (which is free) and the Onos (which costs the same as two fades). If I could chose to *spawn* as a Fade at no cost I would, but spending 50 resources to evolve into one forces me to compare it with the free offer.
I would get more kills and do more damage as a Fade then as a skulk, but not enough to justify the 50 res spent. If you happen to be an extremely good Fade (or an abysmal skulk and decent Fade I guess), it might be worth it, but for most people it isn't.
Yes, the Fade is a lot of fun. I love blinking. I only go Fade in two situations though. When Marines have multiple elec res nodes, so I can take them down, or when we have 3 hives and the Marines are entrenched in a certain Manner (making it impractical to go Onos).
That should clear it up. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree very much with this, excpt that when one uses a fade they expect to be owrth the 50 res right there and then. I can easly get 50 res back by being fade with either dc and redempt or sc and moving to a safe spot the heal. Its more of a stragity game were you attack here you have a chance of running into a shottie or just a few lmg's. On the server I play on iv seen ono's taken down by unupgraded lmg's that worked together for a comon goal, so in groups rines win but the fade will be the one to help get the lone rine when the upgrades have past were the skulk gets killed fast.
BTW Monkeybonk seems to be the person who alwase looks at the bad side of stuff
I wonder why everyone claims that you can just "blink in, swipe, blink out."
Have you seen how fast blink drains your energy?
They're so loud that they need silence to not be noticed. They're so slow that they need celerity to be decent at melee. They use up so much energy that you need adrenaline.
Also, they get **** for armor/health. I'd blink up to a marine blasting a lv3 LMG and I'd redeem before I could even swipe him.
Of course, they shouldn't stand toe-to-toe with a HA/HMG or a few LA/LMG's, but having to compete with a single LA/LMG is just pathetic for 50 res. I can go as a skulk and take out three LA's - I just can't do that with a shotgun-target fade.
I say remove metabolism or swipe and give fades an "spinning attack" where they just extend their claws and swipe people nearby. Sort of like whirlwind in D2. That would be something to fear.
Its plain and simple. Fades used to rock as both in close and far off fighters. Now, they are mediocre in both. Melee-er's (made up word =D ) go for the onos and its pure strength and rangers will pick a Lerk any day over a fade now. Fades have fallen through the cracks :/
<!--QuoteBegin--Nefilim+Aug 13 2003, 08:58 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nefilim @ Aug 13 2003, 08:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I wonder why everyone claims that you can just "blink in, swipe, blink out."
Have you seen how fast blink drains your energy?
They're so loud that they need silence to not be noticed. They're so slow that they need celerity to be decent at melee. They use up so much energy that you need adrenaline.
Also, they get **** for armor/health. I'd blink up to a marine blasting a lv3 LMG and I'd redeem before I could even swipe him.
Of course, they shouldn't stand toe-to-toe with a HA/HMG or a few LA/LMG's, but having to compete with a single LA/LMG is just pathetic for 50 res. I can go as a skulk and take out three LA's - I just can't do that with a shotgun-target fade.
I say remove metabolism or swipe and give fades an "spinning attack" where they just extend their claws and swipe people nearby. Sort of like whirlwind in D2. That would be something to fear. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You can blink indefinatly by just holding it down, even without adrenaline you can fly-with adren you can fly faster.
It is painfully obvious that the people who say Fades are worthless are simply no good at playing them; might I suggest observing some games and watching fades who actually do know what they're doing(and, most importantly, how to use Blink)? I can't count the number of times I've topped the alien scores as Fade, well above the Onoses. A skilled Fade, <u>ESPECIALLY</u> early-mid game, are capable of singlehandedly crippling marine expansion. They're not real useful for heavy base assaults, but they are the masters of hit and run and this is a <i>much</i> more powerful capability than most people realize if used properly. A fade can pick apart groups of 3-4+ marines trying to cap res/set up turrets/whatever, one/two at a time. The key to the Fade is Blink; use it. Use it a LOT. It makes them the fastest aliens in the game and it more than makes up for their lack of defense; a Fade can practically never die if he doesn't put himself against incredible odds. If you're going for more than 2-3 seconds without blinking, even in a fight, then you aren't using it enough, IMHO. Remember that it's never too soon to blink back out if you're in danger; the sooner you retreat the less time it takes to Metabolize the health back and try it again. Metabolize is also extremely useful; it dramatically decreases the downtime between attacks and goes perfectly with the Fade's hit and run role.
I've seen good Fades never die throughout the entire game and essentially singlehandedly force the marine team to stay in their base the whole game; I'm not saying they routinely win the game on thier own but to call them gimped is ridiculous. If you want to see how they should be played then spectate the Fades that are actually doing well and see for yourself.
Personally I use Carapace/Adrenaline/SoF. Adrenaline makes metabolizing easier(allowing you to use cara instead of regen) and more importantly makes blinking practically free. Also, little known fact: if you time metabolize and use it once right after every tick of regen, it effectively doubles your regen rate(regen doesn't work if you just hold the button down).
<!--QuoteBegin--Zek+Aug 13 2003, 09:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Aug 13 2003, 09:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It is painfully obvious that the people who say Fades are worthless are simply no good at playing them; might I suggest observing some games and watching fades who actually do know what they're doing(and, most importantly, how to use Blink)? I can't count the number of times I've topped the alien scores as Fade, well above the Onoses. A skilled Fade, <u>ESPECIALLY</u> early-mid game, are capable of singlehandedly crippling marine expansion. They're not real useful for heavy base assaults, but they are the masters of hit and run and this is a <i>much</i> more powerful capability than most people realize if used properly. A fade can pick apart groups of 3-4+ marines trying to cap res/set up turrets/whatever, one/two at a time. The key to the Fade is Blink; use it. Use it a LOT. It makes them the fastest aliens in the game and it more than makes up for their lack of defense; a Fade can practically never die if he doesn't put himself against incredible odds. If you're going for more than 2-3 seconds without blinking, even in a fight, then you aren't using it enough, IMHO. Remember that it's never too soon to blink back out if you're in danger; the sooner you retreat the less time it takes to Metabolize the health back and try it again. Metabolize is also extremely useful; it dramatically decreases the downtime between attacks and goes perfectly with the Fade's hit and run role.
I've seen good Fades never die throughout the entire game and essentially singlehandedly force the marine team to stay in their base the whole game; I'm not saying they routinely win the game on thier own but to call them gimped is ridiculous. If you want to see how they should be played then spectate the Fades that are actually doing well and see for yourself.
Personally I use Carapace/Adrenaline/SoF. Adrenaline makes metabolizing easier(allowing you to use cara instead of regen) and more importantly makes blinking practically free. Also, little known fact: if you time metabolize and use it once right after every tick of regen, it effectively doubles your regen rate(regen doesn't work if you just hold the button down). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed
But I topped off the Oni with the Lerk <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->(Yes they sucked)
From time to time I play the Fade because I just simply want to screw around with the marines 1.04 mentality yknow?
I registered simply to reply to this thread. I downloded NS about 1 - 2 weeks ago, and at first I loved the lerk, then I started skulking... and finally, I decided to try out this expensive thing called a Fade that no one ever played. I died a lot at first, and then, once I get the hang of blink, I started slaughtering marines, and turret farms.
The key to blinking isn't to hold the button down, one quick click gets you going as fast as holding it down, think of blink as a slingshot shooting yourself around. Aim in an arc, and zip around with quick clicks that don't waste your energy.
Also, I always try to get my team to get a movement chamber first (celerity for skulks/gorges, adrenaline for gorges/lerks, silence for skulks) unless they have something else planned. Usually I will skulk around with silence until I can go fade. Usually by this time we have 2nd hive up, and get a defense chamber.
Then, once fade, I'll get carapace, and either silence (if I was skulking around) or adrenaline and start the horror. I tend to sit back and randomly move about looking for rambos until I hear teamates or RTs or buildings under attack, I quickly blink in, and slaughter rine after rine. How? Blink, blink in behind them if you can, if you can't, blink in a zig-zag towards them, you get there faster than a skulk, and you're even harder to hit that a flying lerk from constantly switching directions. <!--emo&::fade::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif'><!--endemo--> /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\//\/\/\/\/\/\ <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> Then, slice n dice. I don't know, I've never had a problem with catching hopping marines to claw them, and once I hit around 100-150 hp, and taken out 4-6 marines, I'll blink out, near some def chambers, metabolise with them, and blink back to finish them off.
A silenced fade is something to be scared of. Blink makes 0 noise (and if you use the quick-click with it, theres very little noise anyhow) and I've taken down a HA/shotgunner by dropping down in front of him, swiping them blinking about, swiping some more, circling, and continuing to do that. When I first landed directly in front of him, he missed me with his shotgun, because I scared the **** out of him. Also, adrenaline helps a lot for taking on turret farms. Blink in, block as many turrets as you can with the factory and swipe it until you have to blink out, blink out, metabolise, and repeat.
Heres the thing, unless you have 2 hives, the fade really is just a big fat skulk. With 2-3 hives however, you can now metabolise, something the skulk needs regen to do, and have carapace, allowing you to stand up to at least 1 direct lvl 3 shotgun blast without dieing, and by the 2nd shot, the rine should be dead, or you should be in a vent or around 3 corners.
To begin with, Fades are not the weapon of choice against full groups of marines bunkered down behind turrets with shotties. They're just not, the same as an Onos isn't the weapon of choice against a team of JPers up in the rafters with shotties and the Lerk isn't the weapon of choice against a team of HAs with HMGs. Fades are best when used in early to midgame when the marines are tight on resources and don't have shotties and HAs flowing freely.
And yes, you could play NS and win every match without employing even one. However, in the hands of a capable player they can murder entire teams of marines and never die. I myself am a less than capable fade, and by playing it smart I stopped an expansion right outside marine start. Blink in, kill one, try and kill two, and blink out when you're starting to take some serious damage. This was with Redeem as well (I'm less than confident in my Fade skills), so with regen or carapace you could stay in the fray even longer.
I've seen better players blink into the middle of a situation that an Onos would have redeemed from nearly instantly, kill two marines, and blink out. Repeatedly. And we didn't kill it once until endgame, even though we had a heavily icon stacked marine team.
This extra RFK means that a good fade will be able to go Onos fairly quickly despite the res expenditure, will be able to gorge and put up a hive or towers if needed, and can fade again if he's killed. Basically, Fades are the assassins of 2.0, able to get into tightly guarded bases and pick off a marine without getting killed. They get an upgrade to this power with Acid Rocket, the only long ranged attack that does significant damage to marines (and I believe still carries some splash damage). It's not what it once was, but it's a little bonus to help you finish off Marine Start. Skulks may fill this role in dark corridors, but send a skulk into a turret farm and he'll be dead before he can leap half the time.
The only suggestion I would make is, if it isn't already, to make silence affect Blink. I'm not sure whether it's just on my side, but even with three movements I can still hear blink plain as day from my end. If I'm wrong, though, I'd be more than happy to be corrected <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
Simple. It's the general consensus that the Fade is hard to play, yet rewarding when done right. SOOO, most people will want to stay with the Pwnos, as it's a lot easier to get some kills with. Nevermind it's broad as a barn, stomped people can't shoot you. The Fade has to be a little craftier.
After all, the Fade is a lot faster and maneuverable than the Onos, yet costs less. It's gotta have some drawbacks.
As for ranged weapons, the aliens have spikes against marines and bilebomb against buildings. Granted, spikes won't do much against Heavy Armor, but that's why it's called <u>armor</u>.
Flay decided that the Fade's not an artillery unit anymore (as I doubt it was ever intended to be), but a fader now. It fades in, slashes, fades out. Try it. Just try. And if it doesn't work for you, go Pwnos instead and eat marine chow. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bilebomb is anything *BUT* a 'ranged attack'.
Fader? Wouldn't some sort of actual 'fade-like' ability have cemented this in then? They're visible when they blink, their attacks suck, they can't catch up to running bunnyhopping marines... metabolize? Shouldn't an alien that is supposed to be (Apparently) a lithe assassin actually be able to manuver more then a marine can? He can't. Shouldn't a lithe assassin have some sort of inate stealth ability, or a feature that will allow him to cloak without sensory, even wtihin the range of an observatory? Metabolize? Please, for the love of god, if he's used how you people say he is (Killing 1 marine in a group every 30 seconds) then, why oh why, would he even NEED an ability to HEAL damage? Why is it so strong and why does it have a post-combat-oriented hive 2 ability? Why does it not have a SINGLE stealth-like feature? I mean, they even make more noise then any other alien!
Read again: For 50 resources I get skulk bite and enhanced leap. Weeeee...
To be a good fade takes massive skill - and even if it is done right as you say, they can still drop like flies. One shotty marine that is tier 2 (which when I am playing, by the time we see fades we are at the very least weapon 2/armor1 ) can match a fade. The shotty is a word of pain - and the fade just cant take that much abuse - if the shotty marine has a partner, the fade should just retreat asap. I know I'd rather be a skulk - they are harder to hit and you can get just about the same results. If I want to evolve up into something it is usually lerk. They are able to do so much more than fades, I think. The ability to spore an entire hallway, making passing without HA nearly impossible - and then if HA are seen the ability to umbra the crap out of skulks/other fades/onos is a much more viable thing to me.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Their Hive 3 ability is almost as stupid as making 'web' hive 3. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What would you like the gorges hive 3 ability to be? Lets see, at hive 1 you have spit and heal spray - that is to defend yourself and assist your teammates. At hive 2 you have bile bomb - that clears up any possible hive lockdown that is happening, and rips apart any electrified res nodes. Would you like the 3rd hive ability to be bile bomb? That way you would be unable to clear anything out? Changing the third hive ability to webs makes sense - it is very powerful - too powerful for early game use w/o a nerf - and keeping in mind that the aliens need a sure fire way to clear up TF spam at hive 2 - there is no other place for it. You might make the argument that the fade should have bile bomb again - at hive two or three - but that would be just insanity. The fade would be far to overpowered with the ability to blink. Imagine how fast everyone would complain if the fades could blink to the back of a marine base, bile the crap out of it, and blink out - have about 2 or 3 guys doing this and it becomes impossible for marines to do anything short of worrying about their base. The bile bomb must be on a alien evolution that is slow and defenseless - its the only way to really balance its devastating power. It also must be available mid-game, thereby pushing webs back to hive 3. The choice really wasn’t too stupid, huh?
People come back and say: No they're not, they're hit and die.
SKULKS ARE FREE. If they cost 50 resources, they'd never be used, and people would say 'they're hit and run, not hit and die.'
Yes, shotguns are deadly to a Fade. So? Jetpacks can be used to deadly effect against an Onos too, and a JP is what? 20 res? An Onos is 100 res, and yet it can't catch jetpackers nor run from them. Why is nobody crying imbalance? Because the jetpack is the counter to Onos. So is the shotgun. Yes, the shotgun incidentally is also the counter to Fades. If the enemy is owning you with shotguns, get a Lerk to spore/spike them to death. Once they stop using shotguns, your Fades are good to go.
WHy did you even try this argument? You knew I was going to come back with this:
Jetpacks. Faster mobility, MUCH faster mobility, go through vents, and you can fly. Oh, and also only 25% of the alien's abilities can affect you... I even counted 'Leap' just to be fair.
Jetpacks. Faster mobility, MUCH faster mobility, go through vents, and you can fly. Oh, and also only 25% of the alien's abilities can affect you... I even counted 'Leap' just to be fair.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your point being?
It is 10x easier to get a shotgun (all you need is an armory) than it is to get a jetpack. (upgraded armory - thats 35 res and 3 mins,then a arms lab for what? 45? then you have to drop the proto for a big ol' for 40 (or 45?) then upgrade JP research for 35 res.) and thus - fades are much much more easily countered than an Onos is. (not to mention I rarly see a pub where the comm got jetpacks)
Jetpacks. Faster mobility, MUCH faster mobility, go through vents, and you can fly. Oh, and also only 25% of the alien's abilities can affect you... I even counted 'Leap' just to be fair.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your point being? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The point is that the aliens have no counter to any marine that is cost effective. The only way they can seemingly counter ANY marine tactic is to spend insurrmountable amounts of resources and 20 minutes organizing a patton-like assault to counter it. Marines just spend a few res and can counter 75% of alien attacks easilly.
20 res jetpacks vs. 30 res lerk
50 res fade vs. 10 res shotgun
100 res onos vs. 10 (Or was it 15?) res mine, or 30 res jet/shotgun
150 res HA train vs. 200 res onii, or 160 res onos w/ Lerks umbra
EDIT: Keep in mind the marines SHARE resources, so coming up with these counters is MUCH easier, and MUCH more effective.
It is 10x easier to get a shotgun (all you need is an armory) than it is to get a jetpack. (upgraded armory - thats 35 res and 3 mins, then you have to drop the proto for a big ol' for 40 (or 45?) then upgrade JP research for 35 res.) and thus - fades are much much more easily countered than an Onos is. (not to mention I rarly see a pub where the comm got jetpacks) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
True, and also aliens need more hives to get half of their attacks, and there's more to a Hive then just spending 35 resources. It effectively allows the marines completely immunity to 25% of the alien abilities because they can hold a hive. Furthermore, marines share resources, so scraping together enough resources for a shotgun or a jetpack is much easier then having 10 aliens each with 10 res.
Oh please, use that misfirng mush of matter in your head and you'd realize 2 things:
1) Most marine commanders still play like it's 1.04. They're still using crappy tactics that don't work.
2) Most marine teams have nothing but n00bs on them.
I, as well as almost everyone here, can tell you that a good 2.0 commander with an obedient marine team WILL win most games. I've seen it happen. Repeatedly. No matter what we did we lost 8 games straight. The commander eventually left and the marines collapsed. That's the only balance factor the marines have" The reliance on a good commander.
Maybe you haven't noticed the turret farms that marines can put up consisting of 40 turrets. FROM ONE RESOURCE NODE. Can aliens do that? Not at all.
The debate here is over the fade. Hive 1 gives the fade swipe and blink, and seeing how if the aliens have 3 hives the game is usually over, this is limited to two hive vs tier 2 or even 1 marines. Having two hives gives the fade nothing offensive so your "and also aliens need more hives to get half of their attacks" point is invalid. I dont really know what I'd like to see changed, maybe a slight increase in armor, but I still stand on my point of thinking that the fade is just a very expensive skulk (at the hive 2 level).
The debate here is over the fade. Hive 1 gives the fade swipe and blink, and seeing how if the aliens have 3 hives the game is usually over, this is limited to two hive vs tier 2 or even 1 marines. Having two hives gives the fade nothing offensive so your "and also aliens need more hives to get half of their attacks" point is invalid. I dont really know what I'd like to see changed, maybe a slight increase in armor, but I still stand on my point of thinking that the fade is just a very expensive skulk (at the hive 2 level). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
True, it's over the fade, but my argument stems from the fact that Fades cost 50 resources for literally, **** on two legs.
1) Most marine commanders still play like it's 1.04. They're still using crappy tactics that don't work.
2) Most marine teams have nothing but n00bs on them.
I, as well as almost everyone here, can tell you that a good 2.0 commander with an obedient marine team WILL win most games. I've seen it happen. Repeatedly. No matter what we did we lost 8 games straight. The commander eventually left and the marines collapsed. That's the only balance factor the marines have" The reliance on a good commander.
Maybe you haven't noticed the turret farms that marines can put up consisting of 40 turrets. FROM ONE RESOURCE NODE. Can aliens do that? Not at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First off, no insults please. If you want your arguments to have merit, insulting me is not the way to go. Let's stay civil and we might get something useful out of this thread yet.
Yes, a good rine team will kill the aliens more often than not. The aliens are also noobs though, small wonder they're getting owned. In most of the games that rines win, they do so by denying the aliens res (a very good strategy). Thus aliens don't even have the res to go Fade. You can't blame the Fade for this if it never even enters the game.
Firstly, I will have to go into the back room now and repair my bullsh1t detector because it blew up when I read this.
Secondly, what's up with this "You're still playing 1.04" argument that any idiot that can't actually support his outrageous claims with *arguments* or *facts* spout out?
I've commed a lot of 2.0 games and I think at most I have had *one* rambo on the team. Usually everyone follows orders, goes to waypoints and sticks together. Up to half the team are usually excellent shooters and the rest is at least average. I use pretty much all the strategies available to Marines that are still viable and I am overall a pretty decent COM. Not the worlds greatest or an exceptional god-like COM (as I assume you are), but decent.
Now I lose most of the games. I would say I've won at most 1/3 of the games I have commed. The majority of those due to Aliens picking sensory first, the other due to poor teamwork on Aliens team. I'm not saying my Marines didn't do good, they did excellent everytime, even when we lost. That's why I don't "credit" the Marines, because us winning is depending on aliens screwing up in 90% of the cases. Now please don't be a snotty nose punk and say that I either play 1.04 or with n00b Marines because those who know me can testify that is not the case. If you don't believe me, join me on the server (PM for IP) and look for yourself. I'm pretty sure you will find the amount of skill, teamwork and tactics at the very least on par with yours.
Now, back to the Fade topic. Seems like people are arguing past eachother here, let me clarify:
The fade is not "bad" or "useless", it is just not a very good investment most of the time. You have to compare it to two things, the skulk (which is free) and the Onos (which costs the same as two fades). If I could chose to *spawn* as a Fade at no cost I would, but spending 50 resources to evolve into one forces me to compare it with the free offer.
I would get more kills and do more damage as a Fade then as a skulk, but not enough to justify the 50 res spent. If you happen to be an extremely good Fade (or an abysmal skulk and decent Fade I guess), it might be worth it, but for most people it isn't.
Yes, the Fade is a lot of fun. I love blinking. I only go Fade in two situations though. When Marines have multiple elec res nodes, so I can take them down, or when we have 3 hives and the Marines are entrenched in a certain Manner (making it impractical to go Onos).
That should clear it up.
As a lifeform that most have proclaimed as hit and run, does it offer benefits worth the 54 res? I say 54, since if you're spending the res on a Fade, you'll probably upgrade it too. I don't believe it does. Blink can be seen and heard, reducing stealth, a virtual requirement for hit and run aliens. No other aliens suffers so much from a lack of movement chambers. Lerks are better at dealing with shotgunners. MT appears fairly early and really hinders hit and run tactics. Bilebomb can take out structures, even around corners with splash damage so the Gorge doesn't necessarily have to expose themselves.
There are two more questions I'd like to put to the posters.
1. Why do some of those who like the 2.0 Fade assume that those that don't like it don't know how to play it?
2. If the Fade is cost ineffective or just flat out unbalanced, what could be done to balance it?
Firstly, I will have to go into the back room now and repair my bullsh1t detector because it blew up when I read this.
Secondly, what's up with this "You're still playing 1.04" argument that any idiot that can't actually support his outrageous claims with *arguments* or *facts* spout out?
I've commed a lot of 2.0 games and I think at most I have had *one* rambo on the team. Usually everyone follows orders, goes to waypoints and sticks together. Up to half the team are usually excellent shooters and the rest is at least average. I use pretty much all the strategies available to Marines that are still viable and I am overall a pretty decent COM. Not the worlds greatest or an exceptional god-like COM (as I assume you are), but decent.
Now I lose most of the games. I would say I've won at most 1/3 of the games I have commed. The majority of those due to Aliens picking sensory first, the other due to poor teamwork on Aliens team. I'm not saying my Marines didn't do good, they did excellent everytime, even when we lost. That's why I don't "credit" the Marines, because us winning is depending on aliens screwing up in 90% of the cases. Now please don't be a snotty nose punk and say that I either play 1.04 or with n00b Marines because those who know me can testify that is not the case. If you don't believe me, join me on the server (PM for IP) and look for yourself. I'm pretty sure you will find the amount of skill, teamwork and tactics at the very least on par with yours.
Now, back to the Fade topic. Seems like people are arguing past eachother here, let me clarify:
The fade is not "bad" or "useless", it is just not a very good investment most of the time. You have to compare it to two things, the skulk (which is free) and the Onos (which costs the same as two fades). If I could chose to *spawn* as a Fade at no cost I would, but spending 50 resources to evolve into one forces me to compare it with the free offer.
I would get more kills and do more damage as a Fade then as a skulk, but not enough to justify the 50 res spent. If you happen to be an extremely good Fade (or an abysmal skulk and decent Fade I guess), it might be worth it, but for most people it isn't.
Yes, the Fade is a lot of fun. I love blinking. I only go Fade in two situations though. When Marines have multiple elec res nodes, so I can take them down, or when we have 3 hives and the Marines are entrenched in a certain Manner (making it impractical to go Onos).
That should clear it up. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree very much with this, excpt that when one uses a fade they expect to be owrth the 50 res right there and then. I can easly get 50 res back by being fade with either dc and redempt or sc and moving to a safe spot the heal. Its more of a stragity game were you attack here you have a chance of running into a shottie or just a few lmg's. On the server I play on iv seen ono's taken down by unupgraded lmg's that worked together for a comon goal, so in groups rines win but the fade will be the one to help get the lone rine when the upgrades have past were the skulk gets killed fast.
BTW Monkeybonk seems to be the person who alwase looks at the bad side of stuff
Have you seen how fast blink drains your energy?
They're so loud that they need silence to not be noticed.
They're so slow that they need celerity to be decent at melee.
They use up so much energy that you need adrenaline.
Also, they get **** for armor/health. I'd blink up to a marine blasting a lv3 LMG and I'd redeem before I could even swipe him.
Of course, they shouldn't stand toe-to-toe with a HA/HMG or a few LA/LMG's, but having to compete with a single LA/LMG is just pathetic for 50 res. I can go as a skulk and take out three LA's - I just can't do that with a shotgun-target fade.
I say remove metabolism or swipe and give fades an "spinning attack" where they just extend their claws and swipe people nearby. Sort of like whirlwind in D2. That would be something to fear.
Now, they are mediocre in both. Melee-er's (made up word =D ) go for the onos and its pure strength and rangers will pick a Lerk any day over a fade now. Fades have fallen through the cracks :/
Have you seen how fast blink drains your energy?
They're so loud that they need silence to not be noticed.
They're so slow that they need celerity to be decent at melee.
They use up so much energy that you need adrenaline.
Also, they get **** for armor/health. I'd blink up to a marine blasting a lv3 LMG and I'd redeem before I could even swipe him.
Of course, they shouldn't stand toe-to-toe with a HA/HMG or a few LA/LMG's, but having to compete with a single LA/LMG is just pathetic for 50 res. I can go as a skulk and take out three LA's - I just can't do that with a shotgun-target fade.
I say remove metabolism or swipe and give fades an "spinning attack" where they just extend their claws and swipe people nearby. Sort of like whirlwind in D2. That would be something to fear. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can blink indefinatly by just holding it down, even without adrenaline you can fly-with adren you can fly faster.
I've seen good Fades never die throughout the entire game and essentially singlehandedly force the marine team to stay in their base the whole game; I'm not saying they routinely win the game on thier own but to call them gimped is ridiculous. If you want to see how they should be played then spectate the Fades that are actually doing well and see for yourself.
Personally I use Carapace/Adrenaline/SoF. Adrenaline makes metabolizing easier(allowing you to use cara instead of regen) and more importantly makes blinking practically free. Also, little known fact: if you time metabolize and use it once right after every tick of regen, it effectively doubles your regen rate(regen doesn't work if you just hold the button down).
I've seen good Fades never die throughout the entire game and essentially singlehandedly force the marine team to stay in their base the whole game; I'm not saying they routinely win the game on thier own but to call them gimped is ridiculous. If you want to see how they should be played then spectate the Fades that are actually doing well and see for yourself.
Personally I use Carapace/Adrenaline/SoF. Adrenaline makes metabolizing easier(allowing you to use cara instead of regen) and more importantly makes blinking practically free. Also, little known fact: if you time metabolize and use it once right after every tick of regen, it effectively doubles your regen rate(regen doesn't work if you just hold the button down). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed
But I topped off the Oni with the Lerk <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->(Yes they sucked)
From time to time I play the Fade because I just simply want to screw around with the marines 1.04 mentality yknow?
The key to blinking isn't to hold the button down, one quick click gets you going as fast as holding it down, think of blink as a slingshot shooting yourself around. Aim in an arc, and zip around with quick clicks that don't waste your energy.
Also, I always try to get my team to get a movement chamber first (celerity for skulks/gorges, adrenaline for gorges/lerks, silence for skulks) unless they have something else planned. Usually I will skulk around with silence until I can go fade. Usually by this time we have 2nd hive up, and get a defense chamber.
Then, once fade, I'll get carapace, and either silence (if I was skulking around) or adrenaline and start the horror. I tend to sit back and randomly move about looking for rambos until I hear teamates or RTs or buildings under attack, I quickly blink in, and slaughter rine after rine. How? Blink, blink in behind them if you can, if you can't, blink in a zig-zag towards them, you get there faster than a skulk, and you're even harder to hit that a flying lerk from constantly switching directions.
<!--emo&::fade::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif'><!--endemo--> /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\//\/\/\/\/\/\ <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo-->
Then, slice n dice. I don't know, I've never had a problem with catching hopping marines to claw them, and once I hit around 100-150 hp, and taken out 4-6 marines, I'll blink out, near some def chambers, metabolise with them, and blink back to finish them off.
A silenced fade is something to be scared of. Blink makes 0 noise (and if you use the quick-click with it, theres very little noise anyhow) and I've taken down a HA/shotgunner by dropping down in front of him, swiping them blinking about, swiping some more, circling, and continuing to do that. When I first landed directly in front of him, he missed me with his shotgun, because I scared the **** out of him. Also, adrenaline helps a lot for taking on turret farms. Blink in, block as many turrets as you can with the factory and swipe it until you have to blink out, blink out, metabolise, and repeat.
Heres the thing, unless you have 2 hives, the fade really is just a big fat skulk. With 2-3 hives however, you can now metabolise, something the skulk needs regen to do, and have carapace, allowing you to stand up to at least 1 direct lvl 3 shotgun blast without dieing, and by the 2nd shot, the rine should be dead, or you should be in a vent or around 3 corners.
And yes, you could play NS and win every match without employing even one. However, in the hands of a capable player they can murder entire teams of marines and never die. I myself am a less than capable fade, and by playing it smart I stopped an expansion right outside marine start. Blink in, kill one, try and kill two, and blink out when you're starting to take some serious damage. This was with Redeem as well (I'm less than confident in my Fade skills), so with regen or carapace you could stay in the fray even longer.
I've seen better players blink into the middle of a situation that an Onos would have redeemed from nearly instantly, kill two marines, and blink out. Repeatedly. And we didn't kill it once until endgame, even though we had a heavily icon stacked marine team.
This extra RFK means that a good fade will be able to go Onos fairly quickly despite the res expenditure, will be able to gorge and put up a hive or towers if needed, and can fade again if he's killed. Basically, Fades are the assassins of 2.0, able to get into tightly guarded bases and pick off a marine without getting killed. They get an upgrade to this power with Acid Rocket, the only long ranged attack that does significant damage to marines (and I believe still carries some splash damage). It's not what it once was, but it's a little bonus to help you finish off Marine Start. Skulks may fill this role in dark corridors, but send a skulk into a turret farm and he'll be dead before he can leap half the time.
The only suggestion I would make is, if it isn't already, to make silence affect Blink. I'm not sure whether it's just on my side, but even with three movements I can still hear blink plain as day from my end. If I'm wrong, though, I'd be more than happy to be corrected <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->