antifreezeThe guy with the goods!Join Date: 2003-05-12Member: 16232Members, Constellation
ohh god. Lets hope this gets finished. Shame its gonna miss 2.1, if flayra discovers he needs to release a minor client patch in the future i hope it gets included.
<!--QuoteBegin--XP-Cagey+Oct 9 2003, 01:08 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (XP-Cagey @ Oct 9 2003, 01:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--WolfWings+Oct 9 2003, 04:36 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (WolfWings @ Oct 9 2003, 04:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Problem is... when I tried to compile the version you sent me, Lazer, it came in at 4.5MB texdata used. Much of my work has been reducing the texture-count by removing redundant textures, or moving all uses of a given texture to the '128x128' instead of '256x256' version. =-.-=
I'll export all my skulk-clipping later today, I'm getting ready to head out to work for an hour or four today, so expect a post with the skulk-clipping in the e-mail, and I'll get the heck out of everyones way since there's nothing more I can do here.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd rather not see anybody's work go to waste -- how about this for a solution:
Write a quick map merging tool with the following special properites: <ul><li>new brushes are imported in their entirety<li>brushes not in the imported version are dropped from the merge<li>texture alignment information for brushes from the previous (Hammer) build is preserved--the Radiant build doesn't overwrite the alignment numbers<li>texture name information is imported (so that the 128x128 replacements are used, BEVEL clips are inserted, redundant textures are dropped)<li>texture names can be flagged to have their scale doubled automatically when they are imported (so that the 128x128 textures scale to match the 256x256 textures they replace). Rescaling could be automated by reading texture sizes in from the WADs, but that's more work.<li>A list of brush numbers with rescaled flags is printed out so that a human can double check the post-scale alignment. </ul>
Using the system above, you can import WW's work and don't have to worry about texture alignments going bad when the brushes are originally done in Hammer and cross ported. It'll take some work to write, but probably less than WW has put into the clipping from what I understand; it's a relatively simple operation to parse each entity, collect the brushes, compare them, and output them back into a file; the operation would be trival if Radiant preserves brush ordering, which would be the first thing I'd check.
Just my 2 cents.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->when exactly did the team become aware that you were using radient wolfwings? might have been a point of importance earlier on<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nobody on the team (WW included) knew that Radiant's texture handling was incompatible with Hammer's version of the map format when the project started. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I would love to write that, except I can't code. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--DarkATi+Oct 9 2003, 07:46 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Oct 9 2003, 07:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--NerdIII+Oct 9 2003, 12:43 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NerdIII @ Oct 9 2003, 12:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You just have to read one post to know that WolfWings used Radiant from the beginning while the other two use Hammer and all are happy with their map editors and find the others confusing because they miss the features they love in their editor or just don't find them in the other. I'd say they all move to QuArK <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sorry Nerd, QuArK won't run on my computer. OpenGL is bugged due to my old GFX Card. Anyway VHE is what I grew up mapping in, not just for HL, but period. I like it's oddities and have grown to embrace them.
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Lol, and I though OpenGL was an issue with Hammer! QuArK has a really bad support for OpenGL, you should use the software renderer anyway. And that is selected by default. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Not another one that says decompile the map! Where do you think that they got what they have? They used a custom decompiler and have worked off that. It would not work to just retexture it either because the decompiler does a bad job at recreating it perfectly. They got a basic structure of the map and had to rebuild it.
:edit: Cagey had been on this for a while, I forsee a large post coming up.
<!--QuoteBegin--DarkATi+Oct 9 2003, 09:45 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Oct 9 2003, 09:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--zil+Oct 9 2003, 11:14 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (zil @ Oct 9 2003, 11:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->U know that hammer has the ability to fly round the map just like radiant? (press z while on the 3d window) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah Wolf, he's right, though on my setup you just hold the left mouse button on the screen and fly around with "WASD" keys. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> And in Radiant, I can use the mouse to carve and manipulate the main editing window, while using the keyboard to maneuver the camera, <b><i>without having to waste the time to move the mouse from the editing window to the camera view</i></b> each time. So I can move brushes around the map, and 'chase after them' in realtime as I fit them in, using the keyboard to control my camera view and tools and the mouse to manipulate the brushes.
Moving back and forth between the camera and editing windows is very slow, by comparison, and THAT is my biggest beef with Hammer. I have to keep switching windows and tools, I want to be able to keep my mouse in one window the whole time, and use the keyboard to quick-shuffle between everything else. :-)
As for Cagey's idea, that makes sense... but I just woke up after sleeping from getting home from work yesterday. Wasn't a whole lot of billable hours, but Gods was I exhausted afterwards, and I'm still just getting my feet back under me. =-.=- So... I'm booting up GtkRadiant to start digging at Nancy again now.
<!--QuoteBegin--WolfWings+Oct 10 2003, 08:42 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (WolfWings @ Oct 10 2003, 08:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--DarkATi+Oct 9 2003, 09:45 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Oct 9 2003, 09:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--zil+Oct 9 2003, 11:14 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (zil @ Oct 9 2003, 11:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->U know that hammer has the ability to fly round the map just like radiant? (press z while on the 3d window) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah Wolf, he's right, though on my setup you just hold the left mouse button on the screen and fly around with "WASD" keys. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And in Radiant, I can use the mouse to carve and manipulate the main editing window, while using the keyboard to maneuver the camera, <b><i>without having to waste the time to move the mouse from the editing window to the camera view</i></b> each time. So I can move brushes around the map, and 'chase after them' in realtime as I fit them in, using the keyboard to control my camera view and tools and the mouse to manipulate the brushes.
Moving back and forth between the camera and editing windows is very slow, by comparison, and THAT is my biggest beef with Hammer. I have to keep switching windows and tools, I want to be able to keep my mouse in one window the whole time, and use the keyboard to quick-shuffle between everything else. :-)
As for Cagey's idea, that makes sense... but I just woke up after sleeping from getting home from work yesterday. Wasn't a whole lot of billable hours, but Gods was I exhausted afterwards, and I'm still just getting my feet back under me. =-.=- So... I'm booting up GtkRadiant to start digging at Nancy again now. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well Wolf I think you're a super-genius so thats why you can deal with that. No way in hell could I look around and be manipulating brushes of any sort at the same time. I'm a slow-paced mapper, I take time to think it all out, that's an overload for me. Yikes!
Hey, if it works for you then that's all that matters!
Checked here about a month ago and saw the nancy recreation threads, then checked back and there was one with 939 posts :O But I liked the map enough I forced myself to read it (which I just finished in about 4 hours :O) and looks awesome hope it becomes official and good luck with the finishing touches <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
EDIT: Can't remember if this was mentioned, but in the Port Engine hive where the window was, if you stood next to it and typed '/stuck' (assuming that server had that plugin) you would be transported through the window and into the void outside the map. This made it easy to build several D chambers and last forever, or just go out there and waste time. Hope that has been corrected.
I like the idea, big fan of Nancy myself, I would be willing to donate some space and bandwidth if the team needs someplace to host the files, and the progress page <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Quick question - what if you could recover (at least parts) of the original map? I know that QuARK is pretty good when it comes to opening .bsps and resaving them as .rmf - there's some loss, but it at least gives you something to work off? If this has already been mentioned or something, I apologize, I haven't had time to read thru all 63 pages <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--predatory_kangaroo+Oct 11 2003, 10:43 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (predatory_kangaroo @ Oct 11 2003, 10:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Quick question - what if you could recover (at least parts) of the original map? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You know what...if you cant be bothered to read the last couple of pages...you dont deserve to know.. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> I mean for crying out loud, this has been asked on almost every single page. You only need to read the last four or so to see that.
Zounds! Read this whole thread, very impressive work all of you. I hope you can merge your various versions of the maps together and get a good compile off to Flayra for 2.1 testing.
As for the map editors... I have always used Worldcraft, since Quake 1, before Valve even existed <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> ... It just is very simple and easy to use. Probably not as fully-featured as Quark or as quick to traverse as Radiant, but the fact that it works and the fact that I've used it for ~8 years is what keeps me coming back to it.
<!--QuoteBegin--Blahman+Oct 11 2003, 11:04 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Blahman @ Oct 11 2003, 11:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Zounds! Read this whole thread, very impressive work all of you. I hope you can merge your various versions of the maps together and get a good compile off to Flayra for 2.1 testing.
As for the map editors... I have always used Worldcraft, since Quake 1, before Valve even existed <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> ... It just is very simple and easy to use. Probably not as fully-featured as Quark or as quick to traverse as Radiant, but the fact that it works and the fact that I've used it for ~8 years is what keeps me coming back to it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Me too. I love VHE.
Wouldn't it be easier to just decompile the map, fix the onos thing, and then recompile it? . . . . Hahahaha, just kidding. Put down those weapons, you angry forum police types.
Anyway, looks great. Nancy was always my favorite map because it took me 2 months of playing before I found somebody who would tell me what noname was. Everyone else just called me a n00b and laughed. *sniffle* I'm so alone.
----------------------------------------------------------- This is not a sig. I manually added this text at the bottom for the express purpose of making you read more. See how easily I manipulate your puny mind? You're still reading this, aren't you? I can type anything I want here and you will read it because it's at the bottom of the page underneath some dashes. Hah.
Comments
I'll export all my skulk-clipping later today, I'm getting ready to head out to work for an hour or four today, so expect a post with the skulk-clipping in the e-mail, and I'll get the heck out of everyones way since there's nothing more I can do here.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd rather not see anybody's work go to waste -- how about this for a solution:
Write a quick map merging tool with the following special properites:
<ul><li>new brushes are imported in their entirety<li>brushes not in the imported version are dropped from the merge<li>texture alignment information for brushes from the previous (Hammer) build is preserved--the Radiant build doesn't overwrite the alignment numbers<li>texture name information is imported (so that the 128x128 replacements are used, BEVEL clips are inserted, redundant textures are dropped)<li>texture names can be flagged to have their scale doubled automatically when they are imported (so that the 128x128 textures scale to match the 256x256 textures they replace). Rescaling could be automated by reading texture sizes in from the WADs, but that's more work.<li>A list of brush numbers with rescaled flags is printed out so that a human can double check the post-scale alignment. </ul>
Using the system above, you can import WW's work and don't have to worry about texture alignments going bad when the brushes are originally done in Hammer and cross ported. It'll take some work to write, but probably less than WW has put into the clipping from what I understand; it's a relatively simple operation to parse each entity, collect the brushes, compare them, and output them back into a file; the operation would be trival if Radiant preserves brush ordering, which would be the first thing I'd check.
Just my 2 cents.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->when exactly did the team become aware that you were using radient wolfwings? might have been a point of importance earlier on<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nobody on the team (WW included) knew that Radiant's texture handling was incompatible with Hammer's version of the map format when the project started. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would love to write that, except I can't code. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
~ DarkATi
Sorry Nerd, QuArK won't run on my computer. OpenGL is bugged due to my old GFX Card. Anyway VHE is what I grew up mapping in, not just for HL, but period. I like it's oddities and have grown to embrace them.
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lol, and I though OpenGL was an issue with Hammer! QuArK has a really bad support for OpenGL, you should use the software renderer anyway. And that is selected by default. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
:edit: Cagey had been on this for a while, I forsee a large post coming up.
Yeah Wolf, he's right, though on my setup you just hold the left mouse button on the screen and fly around with "WASD" keys. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
And in Radiant, I can use the mouse to carve and manipulate the main editing window, while using the keyboard to maneuver the camera, <b><i>without having to waste the time to move the mouse from the editing window to the camera view</i></b> each time. So I can move brushes around the map, and 'chase after them' in realtime as I fit them in, using the keyboard to control my camera view and tools and the mouse to manipulate the brushes.
Moving back and forth between the camera and editing windows is very slow, by comparison, and THAT is my biggest beef with Hammer. I have to keep switching windows and tools, I want to be able to keep my mouse in one window the whole time, and use the keyboard to quick-shuffle between everything else. :-)
As for Cagey's idea, that makes sense... but I just woke up after sleeping from getting home from work yesterday. Wasn't a whole lot of billable hours, but Gods was I exhausted afterwards, and I'm still just getting my feet back under me. =-.=- So... I'm booting up GtkRadiant to start digging at Nancy again now.
Yeah Wolf, he's right, though on my setup you just hold the left mouse button on the screen and fly around with "WASD" keys. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And in Radiant, I can use the mouse to carve and manipulate the main editing window, while using the keyboard to maneuver the camera, <b><i>without having to waste the time to move the mouse from the editing window to the camera view</i></b> each time. So I can move brushes around the map, and 'chase after them' in realtime as I fit them in, using the keyboard to control my camera view and tools and the mouse to manipulate the brushes.
Moving back and forth between the camera and editing windows is very slow, by comparison, and THAT is my biggest beef with Hammer. I have to keep switching windows and tools, I want to be able to keep my mouse in one window the whole time, and use the keyboard to quick-shuffle between everything else. :-)
As for Cagey's idea, that makes sense... but I just woke up after sleeping from getting home from work yesterday. Wasn't a whole lot of billable hours, but Gods was I exhausted afterwards, and I'm still just getting my feet back under me. =-.=- So... I'm booting up GtkRadiant to start digging at Nancy again now. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well Wolf I think you're a super-genius so thats why you can deal with that. No way in hell could I look around and be manipulating brushes of any sort at the same time. I'm a slow-paced mapper, I take time to think it all out, that's an overload for me. Yikes!
Hey, if it works for you then that's all that matters!
~ DarkATi
EDIT: Can't remember if this was mentioned, but in the Port Engine hive where the window was, if you stood next to it and typed '/stuck' (assuming that server had that plugin) you would be transported through the window and into the void outside the map. This made it easy to build several D chambers and last forever, or just go out there and waste time. Hope that has been corrected.
I know that QuARK is pretty good when it comes to opening .bsps and resaving them as .rmf - there's some loss, but it at least gives you something to work off?
If this has already been mentioned or something, I apologize, I haven't had time to read thru all 63 pages <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know what...if you cant be bothered to read the last couple of pages...you dont deserve to know.. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I mean for crying out loud, this has been asked on almost every single page. You only need to read the last four or so to see that.
I hope you can merge your various versions of the maps together and get a good compile off to Flayra for 2.1 testing.
As for the map editors... I have always used Worldcraft, since Quake 1, before Valve even existed <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> ... It just is very simple and easy to use. Probably not as fully-featured as Quark or as quick to traverse as Radiant, but the fact that it works and the fact that I've used it for ~8 years is what keeps me coming back to it.
I hope you can merge your various versions of the maps together and get a good compile off to Flayra for 2.1 testing.
As for the map editors... I have always used Worldcraft, since Quake 1, before Valve even existed <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> ... It just is very simple and easy to use. Probably not as fully-featured as Quark or as quick to traverse as Radiant, but the fact that it works and the fact that I've used it for ~8 years is what keeps me coming back to it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Me too. I love VHE.
~ DarkATi
*Bump*
*BUMP*
How's it goin guys? How far are you on the cliping stuff Wolf?
~ DarkATi
My services are still available if you need them though, just shout.
...oh and bumpeh
.
.
.
.
Hahahaha, just kidding. Put down those weapons, you angry forum police types.
Anyway, looks great. Nancy was always my favorite map because it took me 2 months of playing before I found somebody who would tell me what noname was. Everyone else just called me a n00b and laughed. *sniffle* I'm so alone.
-----------------------------------------------------------
This is not a sig. I manually added this text at the bottom for the express purpose of making you read more. See how easily I manipulate your puny mind? You're still reading this, aren't you? I can type anything I want here and you will read it because it's at the bottom of the page underneath some dashes. Hah.
ND