<!--QuoteBegin--Edgecrusher+Oct 23 2003, 12:38 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Edgecrusher @ Oct 23 2003, 12:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> yeah i don't understand why you can't just 'deal with it' and get on with the clip brushes in hammer. i means its considerably faster than not being able to do anything isn't it? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'll explain this once.
I've got Hammer loaded Just In Case, but trying to use it, is like trying to carve a sculpture using nothing but a phillips screwdriver and ball-peen hammer, compared to a full set of chisels and soft-headed rubbet mallets with a proper vice to hold everything down in.
The tools I rely on most heavilly, CSG (carve and merge), vertex, and edge manipulation, are constantly screamed about not being safely usable in Hammer. Over half of the brushes in my sections of Nancy were built with vertex manipulation and CSG operations, but look... no errors in them, anywhere. I'm just worried about trying to do anything in Hammer with all these errors I constantly hear about with using tools I rely on.
And as for the vents, Lazer... just do what I did. Load one, then load the other and CSG Subtract it from the first. Specifically, subtract Vents.map from VentsLarger.map, and you're done. If there's some reason that's hard to do in Hammer, my appologies, I can post a new version of the Vents pre-hollowed.
Oh, and for compiling just use <a href='http://countermap.counter-strike.net/Nemesis/' target='_blank'>Batch Compiler</a> like I do. It's a seperate program with stand-alone settings for most of the compile tools, including support for XP-Cagey's compiles up through p12.
Now for the vents, the closest thing to a subtract is telling it to carve the smaller object out. It works ok, but I found multiple broken up brushes where they didn't need to be after the operation. Should I just go and try to fix these few errors myself, or do you have a precarved vent system you could send? I gotta go to school right now so I figure this is the best time to ask.
The dozen or so oddly-placed splits Carve is generating shouldn't affect r_speeds much, since average r_speeds inside the vents are and were around 50-100 at the highest previously.
I do regret not getting the chance to do the one major overhaul in the vents I wanted to though, making them all be ignored completely on commander view, with a light 'wireframe outline' I figured out how to do, so they're "ignorable" without being completely invisible, so if the commander sees a skulk in a vent, it's a skulk in a wireframe tunnel. =^.^=
This is only really feasable since clip brushes are now climbable by skulks in 2.1, actually.
<!--QuoteBegin--WolfWings+Oct 23 2003, 07:20 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (WolfWings @ Oct 23 2003, 07:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Over half of the brushes in my sections of Nancy were built with vertex manipulation and CSG operations, but look... no errors in them, anywhere. I'm just worried about trying to do anything in Hammer with all these errors I constantly hear about with using tools I rely on.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> User induced malfunctions, and easy to avoid once you know what Hammer's limits are <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->. Over 70% of my brushwork is vertex manipulated and I never see those errors, but I have a knack for spatial relationships.
The golden rule with Hammer editing is to never create off-grid geometry for the worldspawn, which means that the rotation tool is a no-no unless you're snapping to 90 degree increments. This limitation is there solely because Hammer snaps dragged geometry to the grid by the corner nearest to the cursor instead of maintaining a relative grid offset to the brush origin (which is stupid, but oh well <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->). This results in brushes with off-grid corners being pushed over a fraction of a unit when they're moved--and Hammer doesn't have a facility to move them back less than a unit to the original offset. That's where I think many, many peoples' leaks come from even though they're trying to be careful.
If you use a standard set of approximated angles while making cuts or dragging vertices, you won't have any problems; I rarely use Hammer's CSG features for non-axial cutting brushes because I'm a control freak when it comes to brush splits, and the rotation code is evil unless you're using 90 degree increments... but I can vouch that the other operations work as advertised.
If anything, Hammer needs to display a modal error dialog when a user shoots him/herself in the foot with an illegal brush shape; early detection of a bad user action would make life much easier for most mappers.
Radiant has my favorite editor interface (fast and powerful), but Hammer's not the hulking beast it might seem when you first make the transition <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->.
<!--QuoteBegin--WolfWings+Oct 24 2003, 05:01 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (WolfWings @ Oct 24 2003, 05:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is only really feasable since clip brushes are now climbable by skulks in 2.1, actually. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You have no idea how happy this made me when I read the changelog. The workaround I had in mind was a truly gross hack <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Actually... the reason I like GtkRadiant so much... is because you physically CAN'T build an invalid brush with it.
If you bring a vertex down on one corner of a cube, it splits the face between the two neighboring corners automatically.
Lower another vertex on the same edge? It will re-merge those two faces into one slope if possible.
That's my concern with Hammer, is that it doesn't do that, at all. I'm used to tools that <b>can't</b> break, no matter how hard I thrash them around. =^.^=
And on a side-note... any chance you could see about Flayra adding some kind of support in func_seethrough for one entity that can be given two *# models, one for commander, and one for non-comm mode? =^.^= And that also supports the rendermode flag for both? That would vastly improve the existing func_illusionary by leaps and bounds, though it would admitedly require a bit of ripent usage to exploit. :-)
any chance that we could get some more pics... as that site u posted earlier doesnt seem to be working, <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Skulk climbable clipping? Sweet! From what I understood, skulks couldn't get there proper lighting information before because of the clipping... so Flay & co. fixed that too? Me wonders what Merkaba is going to have to do for the Hera outdoor landing pad now... "ACK! TEH SKULKS CAN HOVAR WIHTOUT FLAPPING!!" <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Sounding good!
Worse come to worse Wolf, and if you do have to load up Hammer, just do your vertex manipulation with triangles only! Might be tedious and harsh on the r_speeds, but you can't really go wrong with triangles! (Well... a simpleton n00b like me hasn't...) <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
And this wireframe venting you going to attempt, if you do get it up and working (on any map you make), I'd love to see this in action.
Anyway, gj all of you guys! Best of luck to y'all!
<!--QuoteBegin--WolfWings+Oct 24 2003, 06:37 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (WolfWings @ Oct 24 2003, 06:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And on a side-note... any chance you could see about Flayra adding some kind of support in func_seethrough for one entity that can be given two *# models, one for commander, and one for non-comm mode? =^.^= And that also supports the rendermode flag for both? That would vastly improve the existing func_illusionary by leaps and bounds, though it would admitedly require a bit of ripent usage to exploit. :-)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Heh -- I've been sending him emails with suggestions for mapping entity enhancements for almost a year now without results <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->.
The clip fix came about because people were having issues climbing railings made from a func_illusionary and worldspawn clipping; I didn't see it coming <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->.
Maybe you guys should take the time to back up now. Last time you guys mentioned backups was when wolfwings said he made three separate copies on cd <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I don't know too much about mapping so ignore my ignorance. But it seems that only a month ago there was a release of a program that decompiled maps. If you were to use this you would not have had to start from the ground up? I actually remember using this program as well. I just wish I could remember the name... (I had my HD wiped and I did not back up this proggy so I don't have it anymore)
Am I just blathering or is there anyone here who knows what I am talking about?
cold-nite, if you had read any page of this 70pg thread, you would have known that many have suggested the same thing as you. You would know the response too.
The program you are talking about is evil. Its decompiles are almost always borked and don't have textures, furter more the entities get screwed sometimes.
<!--QuoteBegin--ZiGGY^+Oct 20 2003, 02:33 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ZiGGY^ @ Oct 20 2003, 02:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> thats a lot of posts, nancy forever!!!11 <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I read the 23 first pages before I saw there were 72 pages total.
I respect the amount of care you are putting into this project, and I agree that waiting a little longer for a great remake of this map would be better than having a roughly smacked together version ready now.
Keep it up, you're doing great!
[edit] just reading over these posts again, it seems the post I was replying to has... well... gone on holiday [/edit]
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh wait your the one who is un-original and has to re-create a map<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know a lot of people that want to play this map again, and most don't come to this board. So, on behalf of me and them, good work and thank you. I miss Nancy, it was one of the bestest maps.
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
I've taken the liberty of wandering through and slicing away over a page of useless trolling by a certain member, as well as a number of the responses. Carry on.
(And be warned, if the trolling or discussion of same starts up again, it will be sliced away just as easily, and could carry... unpleasant repercussions for the relevant parties involved.)
<!--QuoteBegin--Lazer+Oct 27 2003, 09:06 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lazer @ Oct 27 2003, 09:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> After this line I wanna see no more talk about <span style='color:green'>*SPORED.*</span> It isn't helping this thread at all.
Ok, ATi I sent you the rmf file to look at. I cut down textures even more but I'm still getting the error. Hopefully you can help. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> OK, I'm just now checking my e-mail. I'll send you a fixed copy by the end of today.
EDIT* Now that I have a working copy of the map (the .map's WWs sent me never compiled.) I will go ahead and finish up the lighting as well, while I'm at it.
MAX_MAP_MIPTEX Error has been fixed. Moving on now to the final .rad file. I am working on the final lights file tonight and will have it finished sometime tomorrow if all goes well. Nancy is EVEN close now to completion, I'm so excited! I just can't hide it... I'M ABOUT TO LOOOSE CONTROL AND I THINK I LIKE IT!!!!!
Don't lose control you might delete it. BTW BACKUP lol <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I started playing NS after Nancy was taken out, so I really look forward to seeing it if it's worth all this time and effort to remake it. Thanks in advance.
<!--QuoteBegin--Quantum_Duck+Oct 28 2003, 10:00 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Quantum_Duck @ Oct 28 2003, 10:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I started playing NS after Nancy was taken out, so I really look forward to seeing it if it's worth all this time and effort to remake it. Thanks in advance. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Was(is) an excellent map and you should enjoy it <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> One of my favorites and was fairly popular among NS Community (as you can tell by how long this thread is :O)
<!--QuoteBegin--Lazer+Oct 29 2003, 04:48 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lazer @ Oct 29 2003, 04:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Please send me the rmf file back so I can add in the central fan. Otherwise this is great news. A playable compile may be days away. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Damn! It is finally coming true. I must say it is making me giddy as a school girl!
Nancy was not perfect in terms of texture alignment and something else I don't remember, but it surely had the most interesting connectivity of all maps. The original author knows how to make places look the way he wants. I'm really interested if the new Nancy can keep this look and feel. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> ..and I am one of those who think that even NS 2.0 lost a lot of the feeling of NS 1.4 <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> (Good that you used a decompiler to get the dimensions right!)
Comments
I'll explain this once.
I've got Hammer loaded Just In Case, but trying to use it, is like trying to carve a sculpture using nothing but a phillips screwdriver and ball-peen hammer, compared to a full set of chisels and soft-headed rubbet mallets with a proper vice to hold everything down in.
The tools I rely on most heavilly, CSG (carve and merge), vertex, and edge manipulation, are constantly screamed about not being safely usable in Hammer. Over half of the brushes in my sections of Nancy were built with vertex manipulation and CSG operations, but look... no errors in them, anywhere. I'm just worried about trying to do anything in Hammer with all these errors I constantly hear about with using tools I rely on.
And as for the vents, Lazer... just do what I did. Load one, then load the other and CSG Subtract it from the first. Specifically, subtract Vents.map from VentsLarger.map, and you're done. If there's some reason that's hard to do in Hammer, my appologies, I can post a new version of the Vents pre-hollowed.
Now for the vents, the closest thing to a subtract is telling it to carve the smaller object out. It works ok, but I found multiple broken up brushes where they didn't need to be after the operation. Should I just go and try to fix these few errors myself, or do you have a precarved vent system you could send? I gotta go to school right now so I figure this is the best time to ask.
I do regret not getting the chance to do the one major overhaul in the vents I wanted to though, making them all be ignored completely on commander view, with a light 'wireframe outline' I figured out how to do, so they're "ignorable" without being completely invisible, so if the commander sees a skulk in a vent, it's a skulk in a wireframe tunnel. =^.^=
This is only really feasable since clip brushes are now climbable by skulks in 2.1, actually.
User induced malfunctions, and easy to avoid once you know what Hammer's limits are <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->. Over 70% of my brushwork is vertex manipulated and I never see those errors, but I have a knack for spatial relationships.
The golden rule with Hammer editing is to never create off-grid geometry for the worldspawn, which means that the rotation tool is a no-no unless you're snapping to 90 degree increments. This limitation is there solely because Hammer snaps dragged geometry to the grid by the corner nearest to the cursor instead of maintaining a relative grid offset to the brush origin (which is stupid, but oh well <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->). This results in brushes with off-grid corners being pushed over a fraction of a unit when they're moved--and Hammer doesn't have a facility to move them back less than a unit to the original offset. That's where I think many, many peoples' leaks come from even though they're trying to be careful.
If you use a standard set of approximated angles while making cuts or dragging vertices, you won't have any problems; I rarely use Hammer's CSG features for non-axial cutting brushes because I'm a control freak when it comes to brush splits, and the rotation code is evil unless you're using 90 degree increments... but I can vouch that the other operations work as advertised.
If anything, Hammer needs to display a modal error dialog when a user shoots him/herself in the foot with an illegal brush shape; early detection of a bad user action would make life much easier for most mappers.
Radiant has my favorite editor interface (fast and powerful), but Hammer's not the hulking beast it might seem when you first make the transition <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->.
<!--QuoteBegin--WolfWings+Oct 24 2003, 05:01 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (WolfWings @ Oct 24 2003, 05:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is only really feasable since clip brushes are now climbable by skulks in 2.1, actually. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have no idea how happy this made me when I read the changelog. The workaround I had in mind was a truly gross hack <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
If you bring a vertex down on one corner of a cube, it splits the face between the two neighboring corners automatically.
Lower another vertex on the same edge? It will re-merge those two faces into one slope if possible.
That's my concern with Hammer, is that it doesn't do that, at all. I'm used to tools that <b>can't</b> break, no matter how hard I thrash them around. =^.^=
p.s
any chance that we could get some more pics... as that site u posted earlier doesnt seem to be working, <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Sounding good!
Worse come to worse Wolf, and if you do have to load up Hammer, just do your vertex manipulation with triangles only! Might be tedious and harsh on the r_speeds, but you can't really go wrong with triangles! (Well... a simpleton n00b like me hasn't...) <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
And this wireframe venting you going to attempt, if you do get it up and working (on any map you make), I'd love to see this in action.
Anyway, gj all of you guys! Best of luck to y'all!
Heh -- I've been sending him emails with suggestions for mapping entity enhancements for almost a year now without results <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->.
The clip fix came about because people were having issues climbing railings made from a func_illusionary and worldspawn clipping; I didn't see it coming <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->.
Am I just blathering or is there anyone here who knows what I am talking about?
Oh well, too late now I guess.
Its decompiles are almost always borked and don't have textures, furter more the entities get screwed sometimes.
I read the 23 first pages before I saw there were 72 pages total.
And yes. NANCY FOREVER!!!!!!!!!!
I respect the amount of care you are putting into this project, and I agree that waiting a little longer for a great remake of this map would be better than having a roughly smacked together version ready now.
Keep it up, you're doing great!
[edit] just reading over these posts again, it seems the post I was replying to has... well... gone on holiday [/edit]
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
All got to unplug sometime, hehe.
I know a lot of people that want to play this map again, and most don't come to this board. So, on behalf of me and them, good work and thank you. I miss Nancy, it was one of the bestest maps.
Here:
----------------------------------------------------------------
Ok, ATi I sent you the rmf file to look at. I cut down textures even more but I'm still getting the error. Hopefully you can help.
(And be warned, if the trolling or discussion of same starts up again, it will be sliced away just as easily, and could carry... unpleasant repercussions for the relevant parties involved.)
Here:
----------------------------------------------------------------
Ok, ATi I sent you the rmf file to look at. I cut down textures even more but I'm still getting the error. Hopefully you can help. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OK, I'm just now checking my e-mail. I'll send you a fixed copy by the end of today.
EDIT* Now that I have a working copy of the map (the .map's WWs sent me never compiled.) I will go ahead and finish up the lighting as well, while I'm at it.
~ DarkATi
Wooooh!
~ DarkATi
BTW BACKUP lol <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Was(is) an excellent map and you should enjoy it <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> One of my favorites and was fairly popular among NS Community (as you can tell by how long this thread is :O)
Damn! It is finally coming true. I must say it is making me giddy as a school girl!
<span style='font-size:7pt;line-height:100%'>AKA. Great work you guys, I applaud you for your effort in this, and hope it makes it into NS 2.1</span>