0,5 per mil for acohol(don't know how this is in other countries). 0,5 joints for marijuana.
How hard it is to measure how much THC(whatever) a person has in his blood? Anyway, some modern country just has to do the first move and show that Satan wont engulf the whole nation if weed gets legalized, so that the others can follow.
<!--QuoteBegin--Dread+Dec 26 2003, 02:42 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dread @ Dec 26 2003, 02:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Anyway, some modern country just has to do the first move and show that Satan wont engulf the whole nation if weed gets legalized, so that the others can follow. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> :: scratches Amsterdam from his list of modern countries, scratches his head ::
amsterdam is a city, not a country. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> [/analism]
I hear Canada recently legalised for medicinal purposes... not really the same thing though.
<!--QuoteBegin--GreyPaws+Dec 27 2003, 01:28 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (GreyPaws @ Dec 27 2003, 01:28 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Dread+Dec 26 2003, 02:42 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dread @ Dec 26 2003, 02:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Anyway, some modern country just has to do the first move and show that Satan wont engulf the whole nation if weed gets legalized, so that the others can follow. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> :: scratches Amsterdam from his list of modern countries, scratches his head :: <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Netherlands doesn't count, because IIRC weed has been legalized there for a long time and none really notes it anymore. We need a new player showing way for others.
<!--QuoteBegin--taboofires+Dec 26 2003, 02:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (taboofires @ Dec 26 2003, 02:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It would be hard to OD on some things unless you are trying, is more to the point. You wouldn't drink 10 gallons of water for fun. In the same way, smoking weed is going to stop being fun before you OD (unless you're allergic, have no liver, etc.). So does alcohol, and it's always mystified me how people can get to the point where they're too plastered to do anything but drink and <i>keep drinking</i> for another half hour. They're just asking for it.
Both pot and alcohol can be used responsibly without coming anywhere close to ODing (or murdering anyone, or burning down your house, or...) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> No one would try to OD on anything, if you tried, it counts as a suicide, no? And technically, you can use any substance "responsibly without coming anywhere close to ODing".
Now that alcohol is more or less officially dragged into this argument, just wanted to see what you guys thought about alcohol (which is just as, if not more dangerous a substance than marijuana) being legal and regulated while marijuana is not and not.
Amersterdam is a CITY darnit!!! har har... anywho, I don't think anyone want to be the one to let "drugs" in on their watch.
Another question. What about prescription drug abuse? Many people probably have heard of Oxycontin and how many if its users have become addicts (liquifying and injecting). Apparently, prescription drug abuse is a trend on the <a href='http://www.nida.nih.gov/ResearchReports/Prescription/prescription5.html' target='_blank'>rise</a>. Prescription drugs are legal (abusing them isn't, i dun think) and its uses could overlap that of medicinal marijuana.
So here we have a generally illegal substance used as painkillers.... and generally legal substances used as drugs. Wierd eh? Thoughts?
<!--QuoteBegin--MonsieurEvil+Dec 27 2003, 12:59 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Dec 27 2003, 12:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And, technically speaking, it's not legal in Amsterdam. Merely tolerated. The tourguides were very specific about that during the honeymoon... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> MMMMMMMMMmmmmmm Honeymoon in Amsterdam... soooo goood...
I was under the impression that it was legal there, my bad. And In my eyes that city will always be its own country <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Marijuana legalization will be unlikely for a long long time.
The reason is that the image of the drug itself is tainted. Hemp itself a hugely useful material, and marijuana itself has qualities the medical community recognizes.
But, the image of the potheads needs reforming before the law becomes reformed.
Pot itself is seen too much of a debilitating drug. Just go to a college party and find the corner with the T.V. and a bong. Not a bunch of go getters or rebel rowsers. Unlike alcohol which is a decreases social inhibitions and therefore makes socializing easier, marijuana does the opposite, and while relaxing, creates an environment of low motivation.
As a country built on a hardnose work ethic and beliefs in ambitions, the acceptance of marijuna goes against everything this country believes itself to be.
<!--QuoteBegin--Fat Man/ Little Coat+Dec 28 2003, 01:24 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Fat Man/ Little Coat @ Dec 28 2003, 01:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Unlike alcohol which is a decreases social inhibitions and therefore makes socializing easier, marijuana does the opposite, and while relaxing, creates an environment of low motivation. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Then again, low motivation isn't all that bad. My friend got a little too motivated after couple of beers and decided to go for a drive. At night. In winter. Guess what happened? Would've been so much better if he had just taken a joint and sat on the sofa for the rest of the evening.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As a country built on a hardnose work ethic and beliefs in ambitions, the acceptance of marijuna goes against everything this country believes itself to be.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the "we work harder than others" is a belief all countries share. Go ask a German guy, or Japanese or Chinese or Russian. They all say their people work much harder than the rest of the world. USAs beliefs just get more prime time <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
So basically I think everyone should rather get rid of the image about hard working than the image of all marijuana users being slackers. Which all potheads I know are <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Weed is not really legal in the mentioned countries, just decriminalized. If you possess enough (sometimes any), you get basically a ticket, and possession with the intent to sell is still criminal.
Monse, I was mainly refering to responsible as something like sitting in your living room on a saturday and minding your own business. You shouldn't drive while sleep deprived, let alone intoxicated. Leave the death machine in the garage.
[WHO]ThemYou can call me DaveJoin Date: 2002-12-11Member: 10593Members, Constellation
edited December 2003
<!--QuoteBegin--Dread+Dec 27 2003, 04:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dread @ Dec 27 2003, 04:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As a country built on a hardnose work ethic and beliefs in ambitions, the acceptance of marijuna goes against everything this country believes itself to be.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the "we work harder than others" is a belief all countries share. Go ask a German guy, or Japanese or Chinese or Russian. They all say their people work much harder than the rest of the world. USAs beliefs just get more prime time <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Neg. I had a friend that spent 3 months going around Europe and he was telling me that it's pretty much accepted over there that the American workforce does work harder.
[WHO]ThemYou can call me DaveJoin Date: 2002-12-11Member: 10593Members, Constellation
edited December 2003
And I must speak out against the idea that alcohol is worse than marijuana. Smoking marijuana is still a form of smoking, I recognize that tobacco smoking has more lethal junk in it, but it's still a variation. Taking random crap into our ever-so-fragile lungs. There are not many mammals out there with a highly developed system for filtering airborn pollutants since most of the air on the planet is exactly the same with only trace amounts of unusable substances.
Whereas alcohol will actually give you better breath in the long run and the human body is already designed to filter crap out of your stomach and bloodstream.
And saying that alcohol will make you more likely to go out and drive a car is a bunch of crap. Stupidity is the only factor in that equation. Just as recently as 2 months ago I got drunk enough to start vomiting blood. And the during the entire experience I had a firm handle on what was hazardous, even my walk down the stairs to walk to a friend's apartment to crash was done with extreme caution.
<!--QuoteBegin--[WHO]Them+Dec 28 2003, 08:57 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([WHO]Them @ Dec 28 2003, 08:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Neg. I had a friend that spent 3 months going around Europe and he was telling me that it's pretty much accepted over there that the American workforce does work harder. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Really? I haven't been that much around Europe but it's a little hard to believe that someone would actually say "yeah, we're all lazy and you work harder", especially since most European countries aren't really USA-fans right now.
At least around here, we naturally think we are hard working people and our forefathers worked really hard too. <img src='http://www.volksfront-usa.org/images/worker.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
See this fellow here? It's a yank poster, however I've seen dozens of other posters that look identical with this and they are from Russia and Germany. So back then in the 40s-60s when a lot of propaganda was involved, every country had the same basic idea: "we work reeeeally hard." I think this was it because government wanted to encourage people to work harder. Duh <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> Don't know if this ideology has changed much.
And atleast Japs think we western people are all lazy sobs <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Edit: Why do I have the nasty feeling that I'm totally O/T? *checks topic* Uh, gotta run.
<!--QuoteBegin--CaL_FiN+Aug 26 2003, 09:36 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CaL_FiN @ Aug 26 2003, 09:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I wouldn't want my country turning into Amsterdam, where you get every pot head coming to your country just to get high.
Keep it for medical use. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Ehm, Amsterdam is a city, I take it you mean Holland. And as for my country, well, who cares? You can only have like 5g. That's not much.
<!--QuoteBegin--Melatonin+Dec 27 2003, 01:10 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Melatonin @ Dec 27 2003, 01:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> and its only legal in one city. Does it count if its not the whole country. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Wow, even in my smallass town Assen it's legal dude, everywhere.
The only reason that its 5 g now is because of the French. Previously it was 30 g.
As for the work ethic, I would think that the ethic stems from our Puritan roots.
Again, its not the drug itself that the U.S. doesn't accept. There are open references in pop culture, politics and even mainstream television ( That 70's show anyone?). Its just that being seen as a user you receive the label of being a pothead. And Potheads are largely characterized as slow, unmotivated and moronic even.
Again, its the image of the Marijuna that needs reform, which is unlikely, since the current image isn't too far off the mark.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->based on your argument why not make heroin legal? Crack? Angel dust? Opium? Bathtub crank?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well the main reason those other drugs arn't legalised is that they are very dangerous to your health. Yes, tobacco and alcohol are as well, but they're not quite as nasty as some other substances that remain illegal.
Weed, on the other hand, is no-where near as hazerdous to your health as tobacco or alcohol and it's hardly addictive compared to other legal substances. A stoned person probably shouldn't be driving a car but hey, neither should a drunk person. That's what we have police officers for. Just put a legal limit on how doped you can be when you drive and everything will be peachy.
Stoned people are, by the way, a hell of a lot nicer to be around than drunk people. Weed represents a virtual cash-cow of taxation and even better, if it was legalised a whole swag of criminals would be put out of business. Seeing as tobacco and alcohol, 2 far more damaging and addictive substances are freely availible on the open market, why should we not legalise weed?
[WHO]ThemYou can call me DaveJoin Date: 2002-12-11Member: 10593Members, Constellation
I think we can all accept the fact that Tobacco is only legal because half the country was already addicted before any problems were found. So drop that.
And second...stop throwing out wild comments like alcohol being worse than weed.
And third...people that make easy money selling marijuana are never going to stop wanting to make easy money. You legalize weed and about 2 days later you have a whole new problem with some other illegal substance.
<!--QuoteBegin--JezPuh+Dec 28 2003, 08:50 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (JezPuh @ Dec 28 2003, 08:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Wow, even in my smallass town Assen it's legal dude, everywhere. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> We have a tolerance policy, that doesn't mean it's legal ... it means they won't bother you if you carry less then 5g
<!--QuoteBegin--[WHO]Them+Dec 28 2003, 03:33 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([WHO]Them @ Dec 28 2003, 03:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think we can all accept the fact that Tobacco is only legal because half the country was already addicted before any problems were found. So drop that.
And second...stop throwing out wild comments like alcohol being worse than weed.
And third...people that make easy money selling marijuana are never going to stop wanting to make easy money. You legalize weed and about 2 days later you have a whole new problem with some other illegal substance. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If you're gonna say it, back it up.
Making tobacco illegal would not prevent people from smoking it. Instead, it would create a black market, where people start making serious money off the illegal trade. The more strongly it is policed, the more expensive it will get, and the more people will sell it. Net effect: everyone who wants to smoke still smokes, except now some of them are poorer (price hikes from black market), some of them are in jail, and some of them have been killed (you only get shot buying/selling something if it's illegal). Our government didn't learn a thing from the prohibition times. The law cannot disuade us from our vices.
As for weed vs alcohol vs whatever, you have to back it up just as much as everyone else does. You haven't provided anything. Others have.
On your point #3: well duh. Making any intoxicating substance illegal is senseless. See above. Marijuana is just the first step. The best way to discourage people from using the harder and more dangerous drugs is education. You cannot educate or otherwise help someone who you have forced underground very efficiently.
On the work ethic topic: it's true, americans work too hard. The europeans have found a good balance of work and pleasure (I think many work around 32-36 hour weeks), but many americans work well over 40 hours per week to get by. Our "puritan work ethic" makes us not mind it too much, either. Both systems have their advantages.
[WHO]ThemYou can call me DaveJoin Date: 2002-12-11Member: 10593Members, Constellation
I did back myself up if you read previous posts from the last page.
And my point about half the country being addicted to Tobacco. I don't understand your counterpoint at ALL. You'd simply never get a law passed that made it illegal in a democracy where so many people already smoke.
<!--QuoteBegin--Stewie+Dec 28 2003, 10:50 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Stewie @ Dec 28 2003, 10:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--JezPuh+Dec 28 2003, 08:50 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (JezPuh @ Dec 28 2003, 08:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Wow, even in my smallass town Assen it's legal dude, everywhere. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> We have a tolerance policy, that doesn't mean it's legal ... it means they won't bother you if you carry less then 5g <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> But what have we learned from educational movies like Pulp Fiction? <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yeah, it breaks down like this: it's legal to buy it, it's legal to own it and, if you're the proprietor of a hash bar, it's legal to sell it. It's legal to carry it, which doesn't really matter 'cause - get a load of this - if the cops stop you, it's illegal for them to search you. Searching you is a right that the cops in Amsterdam don't have.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--[WHO]Them+Dec 28 2003, 04:15 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([WHO]Them @ Dec 28 2003, 04:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I did back myself up if you read previous posts from the last page.
And my point about half the country being addicted to Tobacco. I don't understand your counterpoint at ALL. You'd simply never get a law passed that made it illegal in a democracy where so many people already smoke. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You did make an arguement about "And second...stop throwing out wild comments like alcohol being worse than weed," but I wouldn't call that support. It shows a lack of understanding of how mammal immune systems, regenerative abilities, and respiratory/excretory systems work. There's a certain threshold below which no permanant damage will be sustained, regardless of what is doing the damage. Neither marijuana nor alcohol will cause permanant damage when used in moderation. I can hunt down the studies if you really want.
My "counterpoint" was that your point was irrelevant. Making an intoxicating substance illegal is not going to successful in reducing its use, but will rather cause problems much worse than the drug use itself, not because we're addicted. Even if not a single person were addicted, it would still be a horrible mistake to outlaw it.
Since you asked me to take a look at your other posts, I'll point out this little number: "meh, I didn't bother to read past the second half of the second page of posts. So I'm not gonna take a strong point on either side." So, I'll suggest you read the rest so we don't have to keep covering stuff like that.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I see it as your not harming anyone else, and your not causing damage to property by just posting up and smoking it, so why is it illegal? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Alot of different drugs do harm society indirectly(tax payers have to pay money to support people being rehabilitated or getting counseling to overcome an addiction to, say heroin as well as medicare for lung cancer and other diseases caused by things like smoking).
New scientist has a small archive on marijuana related issues <a href='http://www.newscientist.com/hottopics/marijuana/' target='_blank'>here</a>. Using that as a source of info on marijuana I don't really see why this drug should not be legalized.
I have no experience with the drug(nor do I care to unless it is legalized which would mean quality assurance and not funding crooks), but judging from this little collection of articles, like alcohol there are abusers and it does cause <i>some</i> trouble. But I think the cost to society would at least be very minor(*peers at <a href='http://www.newscientist.com/hottopics/marijuana/dutch.jsp' target='_blank'>this</a>*). The long term effects of casual smoking seem to be minor. I beleive that for a bit of fun a small cost to society and <u>very minor</u> damage(or risk of damage) to personal health of the individuals that volunterily participate is acceptable(hence, I find fireworks, alcohol, violent computer games and bungy jumping acceptable, and smoking as long as I can avoid standing near them(IE outside or in their own homes or something)).
[WHO]ThemYou can call me DaveJoin Date: 2002-12-11Member: 10593Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin--taboofires+Dec 28 2003, 05:53 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (taboofires @ Dec 28 2003, 05:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> My "counterpoint" was that your point was irrelevant. Making an intoxicating substance illegal is not going to successful in reducing its use. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That's a lie and you know it.
As far as filtering systems for the body. There are only thresholds for MAJOR damage. There is no lower bound for small amounts of aggregate damage. Everything you do kills you a little more, it's just a matter of how much.
And I think it should be clear that I'm not trying to state that marijuana is worse than alcohol. Just that the converse is not inherently true either. I feel that anyone that simply buys into the "alcohol is worse than weed" statement is using it as a justification.
Try again. There are no where near as many harmful chemicals in marijuana as there are in ciggs. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually one joint is roughly half a pack of cigerattes...
Guys, leagalizing weed would make it more popular, and would lower the health standards of America nationwide.
I don't think America should leagalize pot... but it should quit the whole war on drugs deal.
Just make it so if you are caught smoking you must pay a fine (this way the gov makes some cash) and that is all.
Meanwhile, we should crackdown on the wetbacks and keep drugs from being smuggled in the first place.
Marijuana is grown in american basements. Most of the other drugs are imported, however. Cocao and poppy plants (the right kind of them) aren't grown commonly in the US (when they are, it's usually in national parks. Ha!), and they're a bit important to the supply chain. I think we get most of our coke-based products from south america and poppy-based products from the east and mideast.
edit: oh, this too: it doesn't matter how bad MJ is for you if you don't smoke like a chimney. See my post on page 6 or 7.
[WHO]ThemYou can call me DaveJoin Date: 2002-12-11Member: 10593Members, Constellation
edited December 2003
I think we should revisit the basics here.
Net Effects of Legalization: 1. Cheaper Marijuana (which would supposedly be offset by new taxes(which apparently get funnelled into quality control)). 2. More Growers. 3. People that wouldn't have touched the stuff otherwise suddenly decide to pick up the habit. 4. The WorldWide Image of the "Stupid American" takes a blow right to the face. 5. People that make their livelihood off of growing/distributing move on to greener pastures.
So let's take a look at each...
#1: I guess that's good for the smokers. But really nobody else benefits there besides the new government employees for the quality control.
#2: Hmmm, seems like a good thing until you hit a problem of overproduction and you get a situation quite literally like the food growing farmers that are PAID by the government to NOT grow anything. If that plateau is never hit then there's no problem here.
#3: Face the facts. Smoking marijuana is worse than not smoking it. And if you make a direct correlation to cigarettes then we all KNOW that educating people just doesn't work. There's literally NO reason to smoke cigarettes (except to maybe lose weight if you're a freak about it), yet new people start every day.
#4: Even if we manage to change the internal image of the pothead. It'll make political relations all that much worse unless we manage to change that image worldwide. And I don't think that's possible, seeing as how you'll never even convince me that a pothead is living up to their full potential as a human being.
#5: Everyone is after a quick buck. Wherever that quick buck lies, it will no longer be with growing marijuana. So you basically throw the dice as to whether this will turn out good or bad.
So, total effect ? Pot smokers now have some extra spending money (and if you don't realize that at least a *little* of that is going right back into weed, then you're an idiot). But the overall effect for the country is still a negative one.
Comments
0,5 joints for marijuana.
How hard it is to measure how much THC(whatever) a person has in his blood? Anyway, some modern country just has to do the first move and show that Satan wont engulf the whole nation if weed gets legalized, so that the others can follow.
:: scratches Amsterdam from his list of modern countries, scratches his head ::
[/analism]
I hear Canada recently legalised for medicinal purposes... not really the same thing though.
:: scratches Amsterdam from his list of modern countries, scratches his head :: <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Netherlands doesn't count, because IIRC weed has been legalized there for a long time and none really notes it anymore. We need a new player showing way for others.
Both pot and alcohol can be used responsibly without coming anywhere close to ODing (or murdering anyone, or burning down your house, or...) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
No one would try to OD on anything, if you tried, it counts as a suicide, no? And technically, you can use any substance "responsibly without coming anywhere close to ODing".
Now that alcohol is more or less officially dragged into this argument, just wanted to see what you guys thought about alcohol (which is just as, if not more dangerous a substance than marijuana) being legal and regulated while marijuana is not and not.
Amersterdam is a CITY darnit!!! har har... anywho, I don't think anyone want to be the one to let "drugs" in on their watch.
Another question. What about prescription drug abuse? Many people probably have heard of Oxycontin and how many if its users have become addicts (liquifying and injecting). Apparently, prescription drug abuse is a trend on the <a href='http://www.nida.nih.gov/ResearchReports/Prescription/prescription5.html' target='_blank'>rise</a>. Prescription drugs are legal (abusing them isn't, i dun think) and its uses could overlap that of medicinal marijuana.
So here we have a generally illegal substance used as painkillers.... and generally legal substances used as drugs. Wierd eh? Thoughts?
/me !proofreads
MMMMMMMMMmmmmmm Honeymoon in Amsterdam... soooo goood...
I was under the impression that it was legal there, my bad. And In my eyes that city will always be its own country <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
The reason is that the image of the drug itself is tainted. Hemp itself a hugely useful material, and marijuana itself has qualities the medical community recognizes.
But, the image of the potheads needs reforming before the law becomes reformed.
Pot itself is seen too much of a debilitating drug. Just go to a college party and find the corner with the T.V. and a bong. Not a bunch of go getters or rebel rowsers. Unlike alcohol which is a decreases social inhibitions and therefore makes socializing easier, marijuana does the opposite, and while relaxing, creates an environment of low motivation.
As a country built on a hardnose work ethic and beliefs in ambitions, the acceptance of marijuna goes against everything this country believes itself to be.
Then again, low motivation isn't all that bad. My friend got a little too motivated after couple of beers and decided to go for a drive. At night. In winter. Guess what happened? Would've been so much better if he had just taken a joint and sat on the sofa for the rest of the evening.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As a country built on a hardnose work ethic and beliefs in ambitions, the acceptance of marijuna goes against everything this country believes itself to be.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the "we work harder than others" is a belief all countries share. Go ask a German guy, or Japanese or Chinese or Russian. They all say their people work much harder than the rest of the world. USAs beliefs just get more prime time <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
So basically I think everyone should rather get rid of the image about hard working than the image of all marijuana users being slackers. Which all potheads I know are <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Monse, I was mainly refering to responsible as something like sitting in your living room on a saturday and minding your own business. You shouldn't drive while sleep deprived, let alone intoxicated. Leave the death machine in the garage.
I think the "we work harder than others" is a belief all countries share. Go ask a German guy, or Japanese or Chinese or Russian. They all say their people work much harder than the rest of the world. USAs beliefs just get more prime time <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Neg. I had a friend that spent 3 months going around Europe and he was telling me that it's pretty much accepted over there that the American workforce does work harder.
I could be wrong, I'm just relaying what I heard.
*Puts on anti-flame suit*
Whereas alcohol will actually give you better breath in the long run and the human body is already designed to filter crap out of your stomach and bloodstream.
And saying that alcohol will make you more likely to go out and drive a car is a bunch of crap. Stupidity is the only factor in that equation. Just as recently as 2 months ago I got drunk enough to start vomiting blood. And the during the entire experience I had a firm handle on what was hazardous, even my walk down the stairs to walk to a friend's apartment to crash was done with extreme caution.
Really? I haven't been that much around Europe but it's a little hard to believe that someone would actually say "yeah, we're all lazy and you work harder", especially since most European countries aren't really USA-fans right now.
At least around here, we naturally think we are hard working people and our forefathers worked really hard too.
<img src='http://www.volksfront-usa.org/images/worker.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
See this fellow here? It's a yank poster, however I've seen dozens of other posters that look identical with this and they are from Russia and Germany. So back then in the 40s-60s when a lot of propaganda was involved, every country had the same basic idea: "we work reeeeally hard." I think this was it because government wanted to encourage people to work harder. Duh <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> Don't know if this ideology has changed much.
And atleast Japs think we western people are all lazy sobs <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Edit: Why do I have the nasty feeling that I'm totally O/T? *checks topic* Uh, gotta run.
Keep it for medical use. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ehm, Amsterdam is a city, I take it you mean Holland.
And as for my country, well, who cares? You can only have like 5g. That's not much.
Wow, even in my smallass town Assen it's legal dude, everywhere.
As for the work ethic, I would think that the ethic stems from our Puritan roots.
Again, its not the drug itself that the U.S. doesn't accept. There are open references in pop culture, politics and even mainstream television ( That 70's show anyone?). Its just that being seen as a user you receive the label of being a pothead. And Potheads are largely characterized as slow, unmotivated and moronic even.
Again, its the image of the Marijuna that needs reform, which is unlikely, since the current image isn't too far off the mark.
Well the main reason those other drugs arn't legalised is that they are very dangerous to your health. Yes, tobacco and alcohol are as well, but they're not quite as nasty as some other substances that remain illegal.
Weed, on the other hand, is no-where near as hazerdous to your health as tobacco or alcohol and it's hardly addictive compared to other legal substances. A stoned person probably shouldn't be driving a car but hey, neither should a drunk person. That's what we have police officers for. Just put a legal limit on how doped you can be when you drive and everything will be peachy.
Stoned people are, by the way, a hell of a lot nicer to be around than drunk people. Weed represents a virtual cash-cow of taxation and even better, if it was legalised a whole swag of criminals would be put out of business. Seeing as tobacco and alcohol, 2 far more damaging and addictive substances are freely availible on the open market, why should we not legalise weed?
And second...stop throwing out wild comments like alcohol being worse than weed.
And third...people that make easy money selling marijuana are never going to stop wanting to make easy money. You legalize weed and about 2 days later you have a whole new problem with some other illegal substance.
We have a tolerance policy, that doesn't mean it's legal ... it means they won't bother you if you carry less then 5g
And second...stop throwing out wild comments like alcohol being worse than weed.
And third...people that make easy money selling marijuana are never going to stop wanting to make easy money. You legalize weed and about 2 days later you have a whole new problem with some other illegal substance. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you're gonna say it, back it up.
Making tobacco illegal would not prevent people from smoking it. Instead, it would create a black market, where people start making serious money off the illegal trade. The more strongly it is policed, the more expensive it will get, and the more people will sell it. Net effect: everyone who wants to smoke still smokes, except now some of them are poorer (price hikes from black market), some of them are in jail, and some of them have been killed (you only get shot buying/selling something if it's illegal). Our government didn't learn a thing from the prohibition times. The law cannot disuade us from our vices.
As for weed vs alcohol vs whatever, you have to back it up just as much as everyone else does. You haven't provided anything. Others have.
On your point #3: well duh. Making any intoxicating substance illegal is senseless. See above. Marijuana is just the first step. The best way to discourage people from using the harder and more dangerous drugs is education. You cannot educate or otherwise help someone who you have forced underground very efficiently.
On the work ethic topic: it's true, americans work too hard. The europeans have found a good balance of work and pleasure (I think many work around 32-36 hour weeks), but many americans work well over 40 hours per week to get by. Our "puritan work ethic" makes us not mind it too much, either. Both systems have their advantages.
And my point about half the country being addicted to Tobacco. I don't understand your counterpoint at ALL. You'd simply never get a law passed that made it illegal in a democracy where so many people already smoke.
We have a tolerance policy, that doesn't mean it's legal ... it means they won't bother you if you carry less then 5g <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
But what have we learned from educational movies like Pulp Fiction?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yeah, it breaks down like this: it's legal to buy it, it's legal to own it and, if you're the proprietor of a hash bar, it's legal to sell it. It's legal to carry it, which doesn't really matter 'cause - get a load of this - if the cops stop you, it's illegal for them to search you. Searching you is a right that the cops in Amsterdam don't have.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
And my point about half the country being addicted to Tobacco. I don't understand your counterpoint at ALL. You'd simply never get a law passed that made it illegal in a democracy where so many people already smoke. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You did make an arguement about "And second...stop throwing out wild comments like alcohol being worse than weed," but I wouldn't call that support. It shows a lack of understanding of how mammal immune systems, regenerative abilities, and respiratory/excretory systems work. There's a certain threshold below which no permanant damage will be sustained, regardless of what is doing the damage. Neither marijuana nor alcohol will cause permanant damage when used in moderation. I can hunt down the studies if you really want.
My "counterpoint" was that your point was irrelevant. Making an intoxicating substance illegal is not going to successful in reducing its use, but will rather cause problems much worse than the drug use itself, not because we're addicted. Even if not a single person were addicted, it would still be a horrible mistake to outlaw it.
Since you asked me to take a look at your other posts, I'll point out this little number: "meh, I didn't bother to read past the second half of the second page of posts. So I'm not gonna take a strong point on either side." So, I'll suggest you read the rest so we don't have to keep covering stuff like that.
Alot of different drugs do harm society indirectly(tax payers have to pay money to support people being rehabilitated or getting counseling to overcome an addiction to, say heroin as well as medicare for lung cancer and other diseases caused by things like smoking).
New scientist has a small archive on marijuana related issues <a href='http://www.newscientist.com/hottopics/marijuana/' target='_blank'>here</a>. Using that as a source of info on marijuana I don't really see why this drug should not be legalized.
I have no experience with the drug(nor do I care to unless it is legalized which would mean quality assurance and not funding crooks), but judging from this little collection of articles, like alcohol there are abusers and it does cause <i>some</i> trouble. But I think the cost to society would at least be very minor(*peers at <a href='http://www.newscientist.com/hottopics/marijuana/dutch.jsp' target='_blank'>this</a>*). The long term effects of casual smoking seem to be minor. I beleive that for a bit of fun a small cost to society and <u>very minor</u> damage(or risk of damage) to personal health of the individuals that volunterily participate is acceptable(hence, I find fireworks, alcohol, violent computer games and bungy jumping acceptable, and smoking as long as I can avoid standing near them(IE outside or in their own homes or something)).
That's a lie and you know it.
As far as filtering systems for the body. There are only thresholds for MAJOR damage. There is no lower bound for small amounts of aggregate damage. Everything you do kills you a little more, it's just a matter of how much.
And I think it should be clear that I'm not trying to state that marijuana is worse than alcohol. Just that the converse is not inherently true either. I feel that anyone that simply buys into the "alcohol is worse than weed" statement is using it as a justification.
Try again. There are no where near as many harmful chemicals in marijuana as there are in ciggs. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually one joint is roughly half a pack of cigerattes...
Guys, leagalizing weed would make it more popular, and would lower the health standards of America nationwide.
I don't think America should leagalize pot... but it should quit the whole war on drugs deal.
Just make it so if you are caught smoking you must pay a fine (this way the gov makes some cash) and that is all.
Meanwhile, we should crackdown on the wetbacks and keep drugs from being smuggled in the first place.
edit: oh, this too: it doesn't matter how bad MJ is for you if you don't smoke like a chimney. See my post on page 6 or 7.
Net Effects of Legalization:
1. Cheaper Marijuana (which would supposedly be offset by new taxes(which apparently get funnelled into quality control)).
2. More Growers.
3. People that wouldn't have touched the stuff otherwise suddenly decide to pick up the habit.
4. The WorldWide Image of the "Stupid American" takes a blow right to the face.
5. People that make their livelihood off of growing/distributing move on to greener pastures.
So let's take a look at each...
#1: I guess that's good for the smokers. But really nobody else benefits there besides the new government employees for the quality control.
#2: Hmmm, seems like a good thing until you hit a problem of overproduction and you get a situation quite literally like the food growing farmers that are PAID by the government to NOT grow anything. If that plateau is never hit then there's no problem here.
#3: Face the facts. Smoking marijuana is worse than not smoking it. And if you make a direct correlation to cigarettes then we all KNOW that educating people just doesn't work. There's literally NO reason to smoke cigarettes (except to maybe lose weight if you're a freak about it), yet new people start every day.
#4: Even if we manage to change the internal image of the pothead. It'll make political relations all that much worse unless we manage to change that image worldwide. And I don't think that's possible, seeing as how you'll never even convince me that a pothead is living up to their full potential as a human being.
#5: Everyone is after a quick buck. Wherever that quick buck lies, it will no longer be with growing marijuana. So you basically throw the dice as to whether this will turn out good or bad.
So, total effect ?
Pot smokers now have some extra spending money (and if you don't realize that at least a *little* of that is going right back into weed, then you're an idiot). But the overall effect for the country is still a negative one.