I had the impression that lerks were supposed to be the most fragile alien... ? They seem to withstand a good clip of LMG fire on their wings. And when they start flying, you can basically forget about firing at all, I just reload because there probably aren't any hitboxes to hit anyway, honestly the only way to kill lerks is with area-effect weapons that don't require you to know where the invisible hitboxes are. ARGH
Let me get a yell from everyone here who was spored 3 times, gone down to 50 hp while in spawn in the ammount of time used getting 50 bullets from armory, then figured the would go kill the lerk because, hell it is makin me a 1 bite target for skulks and that its 30 res wasted for aliens. Then you go after the lerk, and you get spiked to death, after seeminlgly putting a whole lmg lvl 2 into it.
I know I have done it, and I'll do it again. I know I should ignore the lerk, And I do a lot of the times, but a lot of times, its not a good strat to leave a lerk outside your base in a vent, when you know when you leave, he is going to spore again. It hurts the team and your expansion. Plus the comm has to waste res on healthpacks for you after you get away from the lerk.
I say, along with a few other posters, move spore to a hive 2 ability and make it so if it is used on rines, then the rines deserved it for not getting HA fast enough. If the rines did happen get HA fast enough for spore to be useless, aliens didnt do a good job anyway. That would make the lerk more support and less attack becuase it would be basically only useful after hive 2. I dont see the problem with that. It would make hive 2 more critical.
And about that fade crap that other people were saying, how the fade isnt worth the 50 res. You guys dont know how to use the fade obviously. If you as a fade use the warp ability, I believe its called blink, (i dont know because i have hud_fastswitch 1, and it doesnt show what the things i have out are called) and then they rush into a group of rines, with regen and adren, they can easliy rack up the kills and get out fast again using blink, or warp whatever its called. Ive seen nurmerous, skilled NS players come and rack up the kills with the fade using this tactic, And I have done it myself, but I am less skilled at actuallyin hittin the rines with my claws, but thats just me.
I think the problem here is when the lerks fly a good half of their model clips into the roof, this not only looks bad, it also confuses people as to where they need to shoot with only a par of legs sticking out of the ceiling.
<!--QuoteBegin--Windelkron+Aug 29 2003, 10:58 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Windelkron @ Aug 29 2003, 10:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I had the impression that lerks were supposed to be the most fragile alien... ? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Glad someone with a bit of rep around here feels this too. Apparantly they're weak, but for an alien that is supposed to be fragile, they usually outlast all the others out there.
I tend to find taking out lerks is easy enough if they're stupid enough to get close to the base, and half my lerk kills have come from sneaking into some corner on its route and chasing it from behind, getting it in a crossfire.
Now...while I accept that lerks should be hard to kill at range, and need tactics like crossfires and entrapment to get it...those lerks that are actually good players shouldn't be able to get so close to a marine base and make such an impact on it with relatively little risk of getting shot down.
<!--QuoteBegin--CalDreaminGilp+Aug 29 2003, 05:03 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CalDreaminGilp @ Aug 29 2003, 05:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And about that fade crap that other people were saying, how the fade isnt worth the 50 res. You guys dont know how to use the fade obviously... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Is there really 20 res worth of difference between the havoc a fade can cause, and the havoc a lerk can cause? Personally, I'd say no. Especially when you get two lerks working together. Two fades tend to get in each other's way.
Yeah your point about the fade is taken, but what im saying, if I am on aliens, and I save my res and rush rines quick, I can get 50 res farily fast, and I see them, early in the game, much better than lerks for killing. My point wasnt a comparison to the lerk, but was just about the people earlier for saying that a fade wasnt worth the 50 res. Early in the game, before rines have HA/ SG Fades are great.
But you still have to see. Fades are used for what is intended, fighting.
Lerks are used not for what was meant. They are used for attackin marine start with spore and I dont think this was what was intended when people say lerks are support.
But I am talking about early in the game, before hive 2 and before rines get HA or SG, lerks and fades are both deadly. but since fades are worth more, dont you think they should nerk the lerk a little, making spore a hive 2 ability, since lerks are only 30 res
jsut got out of a game with eclipse and i successfully killed 2 lerks but that was getting them from behind while my team layed 2-3 clips each into them, then the lerk spore spam began in marine start by 3 lerks and then havok began, i just say the lerks spores are in the field too long, make it 3 seconds instead of 6 and boost up umbra time on thie field from 3 to like 5-6 that way the spores aent spamemd "too much"
IMO shotguns are the worst against lerks, I cant believe some of you actualy think its suppose to be the best *gasp*, unless their stupid enough to get 5 meters infront of you then they deserve to die from SG..
LikuI, am the Somberlain.Join Date: 2003-01-10Member: 12128Members
<!--QuoteBegin--pieceofsoap+Aug 29 2003, 02:23 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (pieceofsoap @ Aug 29 2003, 02:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Gweh. Quit your whining and improve your aim, or just leave the lerk alone. Let it stare at structures, with no marines around, and it cant do much... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Ok. So, we everyone leaves main base and the Lerk's done sporing he lets the Skulks come in a take out the IP's and everything in there right? GG.
Learn to aim. If my math is correct (as in without acually testing) then it should only take 18 bullets to kill a non cara lerk. With level 3 it only takes 13 Thats not quite a full clip. With hmg or pistol, 9 level 0 or 7 level 3. And hmgs shoot Fast. So those things don't really pack a punch. Just a **** to shoot.
I only lerk other than gorge or skulk. I know from experience death usually goes something like this, ouch ooo aw heal "hah full health again already" instant KASPLAT.
I swear i have voodoo umbra, man the numbers of time in "in umbra" and not a single pistol bullet was stopped. Just unlucky sometimes.
<!--QuoteBegin--Lt. Hendrickson+Aug 30 2003, 02:03 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lt. Hendrickson @ Aug 30 2003, 02:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So those things don't really pack a punch. Just a **** to shoot. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ugh, why do people try to trade off stats that actually mean very little in game to balance the fact that <b>in a lot of circumstances marines are running out of their base to their objective with half the health they should have JUST by spawning and running out of said base</b>
Yes it takes few bullets to STATISTICALLY kill a lerk, so what? Have you tried getting 18 out of 18 lmg bullets to accurately hit a sitting lerk that is in a vent 30 meters away...let alone one that is further away, moving and/or in a vent with regen?
People seem not to take actual game experiance into account when they bandy these stats around unfortunately.
Pistols are the way to kill lerks, and if they will stay still then the lerk will die, of course...but how many of you can honestly hit with a single clip of a pistol, at the range of a long corridor, enough shots to kill that lerk...considering the fact it's either flying in the roof or ducking in and out of a vent?
Then we get back to the ignore the lerk point, which just brings us ALL the way back to the thing I said above that is why should a 30 res unit have such an impact on the game from the get go...and pretty much in an attacking and not supporting role?
The longer he's in marine spawn trying to kill you, the better... since it'll keep him from being elsewhere and doing serious damage to your outposts (sporing a PG or umbraing skulks).
As for shooting him.... use pistols, and aim for the fat pudgy body. Wing hits dont count, neither do direct headshots unless they're on a line that intersects the big fat body (meaning shooting head from side = miss, whereas shooting head from front = win).
About statistics: what do statistics matter when the dodgy HL netcode doesn't let you know if shots connect or not, and the "real" hitbox is still an upright Gordon Freeman?
<!--QuoteBegin--Necrosis+Aug 30 2003, 04:04 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Aug 30 2003, 04:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The longer he's in marine spawn trying to kill you, the better... since it'll keep him from being elsewhere and doing serious damage to your outposts (sporing a PG or umbraing skulks).
As for shooting him.... use pistols, and aim for the fat pudgy body. Wing hits dont count, neither do direct headshots unless they're on a line that intersects the big fat body (meaning shooting head from side = miss, whereas shooting head from front = win). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Do you people know how big a lerk looks when he's just sitting STILL at the end of a corridor, let alone when he's flapping about with half his body apparantly in the cieling? Can I refer you to my above statement that blanket "out of game" statements such as "just aim for his body" really honestly have no place in a critisism of the "in game" lerk prowess.
And I still think you miss the point. The lerk could be at an outpost, sporing there...and he might kill a few more people, yes...or he could do as he is and spore marines as they spawn and leave them so that they are phasing to the outpost they have to defend with only two thirds of the health they should have...most of the time drawing at least one or two marines to constantly try to kill him there.
Hypothetically, on paper and statistics, a lerk that is sporing base does nothing, and a lerk isn't a very good attack option. Then again on paper I wouldn't say that I should be able to go head to head with a marine as a gorge and win with most of my health intact...but I can. On paper a lone marine shouldn't be able to hold an res tower against a rush of three skulks...but we know that in the right hands that can happen quite readily too.
Unfortunately lads (and ladettes), we don't play this game on paper, so stop trying to win me over with your pen <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> In game lerks have a dominant and full impact on the marine game from a minute in, usually the time it takes marines to relocate. If you could please stop with the foolish talk of "well learn to aim" and such, and just think for one minute about how hard it is to hit something like a lerk (it's akin, in my experiance, in trying to hit a fade that is blinking away from you with your pistol), and with the combinations of vent systems, long coridoors, speed of a lerk and evolution upgrades...think about just how long a lerk can stay alive.
I know as a lerk I have never died, regeneration and adrenaline and I've been set. I keep to vents, I stick to long coridoors and that is that. I keep my distance and I'm done...I also get a lot of kills, more than I would if I were a skulk, about as many as I do in a skulk/onos combination game. As a marine, the only time I've killed a lerk is in the following two scenarios
1) The lerk is following his onos/fade + gorge and skulks into the base where they're all attacking. Seeing that they have to be stopped, I pick my target. Everyone else shoots at the onos, obviously, but I decide to sweep around and hit the lerk who is in the thick of umbra'ing and sporing. He's too close and thats why he died, simple as.
2) A lerk has just been chased off from a long coridoor by another marine, and seeing my chance I quickly run to the other end of the coridoor. Knowing he won't bother to look both ways before he comes out to spore again, I wait. Voila, he pops out with his **** to me, and for it he gets a clip full of LMG fire. he dies.
Thats is *it*, I've maybe once or twice <i>luckily</i> killed a lerk at lond distance, but I will hold my hand up and say this is more due to spraying and praying while the lerk gets caught on something jutting out of the cieling.
Along with this he is also one of the more competant...and more importantly consistant...attacking units in the game. But isn't the lerk meant to be a support unit? Drop all this bull about the lerk being easy to kill statistically, and honestly answer the question....how is a support unit a support unit when he is near unbeatable alien that can quite happily take out and severly damage marines at their spawn if he is so inclined, and in the later games absolutely dominate the marines in a killing sense? Why is the support unit sitting on his own firing at marines and not with a group of skulks giving umbra or working with a gorge to protect it more efficiently than a skulk can? Why is it that sitting on his own dealing gaseous death is actually not only a better tactic for his res whoring self, but also a better tactic for the rest of the team that barely have to do any work to kill the weakened marines marching out of their spawn?
Why is the most effective type of team aid a lerk can give nothing to do with working with the team, and nothing to do with support!?!
About statistics: what do statistics matter when the dodgy HL netcode doesn't let you know if shots connect or not, and the "real" hitbox is still an upright Gordon Freeman? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm touched <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Lee, very very very good points in all of your posts, if everyone was to read only one persons posts, it would and should be his, he is wise and knows alot of about in game, listen to his words and think. very good job lee, mabye u will convince some viewers that a lerk is more of a weapon of mass destruction to marines then a support unit, please people keep up your thoughts we might get something good out of this <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Lt. Hendrickson+Aug 29 2003, 08:03 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lt. Hendrickson @ Aug 29 2003, 08:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Learn to aim. If my math is correct (as in without acually testing) then it should only take 18 bullets to kill a non cara lerk. With level 3 it only takes 13 Thats not quite a full clip. With hmg or pistol, 9 level 0 or 7 level 3. And hmgs shoot Fast. So those things don't really pack a punch. Just a **** to shoot.
I only lerk other than gorge or skulk. I know from experience death usually goes something like this, ouch ooo aw heal "hah full health again already" instant KASPLAT.
I swear i have voodoo umbra, man the numbers of time in "in umbra" and not a single pistol bullet was stopped. Just unlucky sometimes. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Problem is: LMG has just an OK range and OK power and SG is a no-go against lerks (long versus short range? um ok).
A pistol works... if the lerk is dumb enough to just stand there...
HMGs can kill them with their range and power. Not fair considering marines can't get HMGs until an AA. They also need HA (high tech) to defeat spore. Though I see that as fair since it totally negates it (hard counter). Jps also work great too since it negates the lerks ability to run away.
Test this yourself. Get someone to fight you as lerk 1 v1 and the lerk will win if he stays out of your lmgs range. Your aim won't do crap since the bullet spread will go around the lerk half the time.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> the lerk will win if he stays out of your lmgs range. Your aim won't do crap since the bullet spread will go around the lerk half the time. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We were doing great. Locked down biodome, rushed furnace and blew it away. Unfortunately an onos came and killed us all. Repeatedly. Lost furnace. Desperate for resources, we headed to the double node room. Began to set up there and were CONSTANTLY spored. We took the elevator to the upper floor of the node room and saw the lerk hiding in the teal vent.
... but the gap was too big for a marine to jump. We could do NOTHING but spray and pray. We'd hit him, he'd retreat and you'd hear 'Galoomp galoomp' as he was healed. We were powerless while he just spored us to death.
Played a game on Veil: Locked down Pipeline. Headed to cargo. I set up a phase gate and everyone poured through, and we set up a turretbase right there. And there we go, a lerk is sporing us. I can't even SEE him. He's on the other side of the hallway, WAY FAR AWAY. You could barely hit him with your pistol. Spored us with impunity, and I just got to watch as my health counted down by fives. the commander desperately tried to keep us alive but we ran out of resources. We all died. And we were powerless.
I think half the problem is the weird hit detection when the lerk is flying - when the damn thing's on the ground, it dies easily enough. When it's in the air, however, it gains Neo-esque powers of evasion. Once this gets fixed, I'm sure it will be riskier to lerk.
The other half is the fact that the counter to lerks themselves (as opposed to just spores) requires a proto lab and takes almost as much res as HA to research (35 for JP, 40 for HA, I believe)! I reckon JPs should be available for the marines' midgame; it would help the vent problems, as well as the fact that without PGs, marines have a horrendous response rate to threats. How about making JP research available at the armoury (for 25 res), requiring an arms lab, for example?
with a good aim, you can easily take out a lerk. one lmg clip usually does the trick and if you can take it out with the lmg clip, finish it off with the pistol. Aiming is the key.
Basically, it takes a very long time for a lerk to kill a single marine, one on one, 100% health vs 100% health. During that time, the lerk isnt doing anything that will really help his team, and the marines probably chased him.
Let's look at his weapons :
Spikes : Takes a really long time to hurt someone, concentrate on one target. Spores : Does minimal damage, althogh spread out over an area, it's easy enough to escape taking perhaps 20 damage max. Umbra : This is where lerk becomes really good. However, at 2 hives, marines should have Gl's researched, which cut through umbra. Priaml Scream : Useful, but it's just an addition to the massive force, and not something that wins a game on it's own.
Another thing is that it's almost useless to lerk at one hive. You can't umbra yourself or anyone else, and you only have one chamber. For sensories, the natural choice is SOF. For moves, you take adren. For D, regen.
SOF without anything isnt very useful. Adren helps a lot, but without an ability to heal( and no umbra), you die instantly. Regen is also very useful, but without adren, lerks can't do much before running out of energy.
Even though you can lerk at one hive, lerks basically are a 2 hive alien.
What was that?... dont rush lerks because they run away, wait for you and spike you??
oh, right.. and just sit there and let them gas the IP's(or whatever) ?... I think not!!
In a cloud your health rapidly goes down..dont know if anyone has experimented on how much damage it does if you stood in a cloud until it disapated? but I reckon you end up on about 30 health (no armour upgrade)... if the lerk hasnt been chased off, and another cloud comes, death.
!!Brave!! is the marine the rushes after the lerk, full well he knows he is going to die..
but while that lerk is NOT gasing (and waiting to spike someone) this gives the commander and the marines time enough to heal, and sort out some kind of defence.
With Luck that marine might do some damage, With even more luck.. he might be followed up by a similar brave soul to finally put him to bed!
one standard marine sacrificing himself to buy a few seconds of time can be invaluble!
when the lerk runs, hide till it comes back then <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Deathlord+Aug 30 2003, 10:31 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Deathlord @ Aug 30 2003, 10:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> when the lerk runs, hide till it comes back then <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> welcome to the forums, but SoF will get ya and usually when im lerk i always check for marines trying to set up an ambush and i go around another way, and i pretty sure most lerks do that
<!--QuoteBegin--Diablus+Aug 30 2003, 06:23 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Diablus @ Aug 30 2003, 06:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Lee, very very very good points in all of your posts, if everyone was to read only one persons posts, it would and should be his, he is wise and knows alot of about in game, listen to his words and think. very good job lee, mabye u will convince some viewers that a lerk is more of a weapon of mass destruction to marines then a support unit, please people keep up your thoughts we might get something good out of this <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I sense minor sarcasm <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
no i was serious, im with you all the way <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--MrMojo+Aug 30 2003, 02:11 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrMojo @ Aug 30 2003, 02:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Basically, it takes a very long time for a lerk to kill a single marine, one on one, 100% health vs 100% health. During that time, the lerk isnt doing anything that will really help his team, and the marines probably chased him.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well in my experiance a good lerk will spore enough that it takes up to 30 health off of you if you simply try to get out of the cloud, and marines end up on no more than 40 health if they stick around to get ammo or build structures. At this stage it's not the fact it takes a long time (though a marine only needs to be around in that gas for 20 seconds at worst, if the marine decides to chase the lrk he'll die quite quickly by the spike).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Another thing is that it's almost useless to lerk at one hive. You can't umbra yourself or anyone else, and you only have one chamber. For sensories, the natural choice is SOF. For moves, you take adren. For D, regen. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And isn't this a problem? He can't umbra himself or anyone else at one hive....so what use is he as a support unit? Until the second hive is up, the lerk is redundent as a support unit...and so he goes and make an opposite impact to support by being a lone non-team player and sporing marine bases and outposts
By the way, I assume you've all tried to put up an outpost while being constantly spored. You should all know that the time it takes to build a PG/TF 4 turrets and 2 Sieges well exceeds that 20 second mark, and thats assuming that no skulks attack your weakened self, and the lerk doesn't spike you either. This isn't "supporting" the team, it's simply being an attacking unit that is highly effective. This is even at one hive.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->SOF without anything isnt very useful.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tell that to the lerks that use it to make sure no-one sneaks up on them and so that they keep their distance.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->with a good aim, you can easily take out a lerk. one lmg clip usually does the trick and if you can take it out with the lmg clip, finish it off with the pistol. Aiming is the key.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you even reading this thread? How many games of NS do you play where all the players are evenly spaced from each other and never move? Aiming would be the key if there weren't so many issues with hitting a lerk that is flying, or infact if the lerk was stupid enough to come within 20 meters of a marine.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->but while that lerk is NOT gasing (and waiting to spike someone) this gives the commander and the marines time enough to heal, and sort out some kind of defence.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And so you're wasting time! If you are chasing about a lerk that is gassing your base, then yeah, you might eventually kill it (because a good lerk wil take ages to kill, usually as long as it takes to get onos), and what have you got to show for it? You haven't expanded, you haven't got any hives, you've done nothing but concentrate res and time on a single lerk.
The only argument I can see is that this may be a method of support for the lerk, by tying up the marine team for a long time...but then I don't like the impact the lerk still has if it *doesn't* tie the marine team up at all, it still causes significant damage....and I don't like the fact it isn't actually acting in a bread and butter support capacity, that is defensively protecting the other aliens and helping them do the killing and defending.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->welcome to the forums, but SoF will get ya and usually when im lerk i always check for marines trying to set up an ambush and i go around another way, and i pretty sure most lerks do that<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Too right, I mean a lerk on his own is deadly, without upgrades...but factor in SoF and/or regen...that is one very tough lerk in the right hands. Can't be snuck up on, and is rarely killed. I have no problem with this of course, except it is so often used in an attacking capacity, and not support.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Spikes : Takes a really long time to hurt someone, concentrate on one target. Spores : Does minimal damage, althogh spread out over an area, it's easy enough to escape taking perhaps 20 damage max. Umbra : This is where lerk becomes really good. However, at 2 hives, marines should have Gl's researched, which cut through umbra. Priaml Scream : Useful, but it's just an addition to the massive force, and not something that wins a game on it's own.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The spikes are a lot more effective when the marines you're firing at have just ran for 5-10 seconds through the gas any good lerk has laid. As for the 20 damage max? Try 20 damage minimum, unless you manage to find a nook in your base and you want to waste marine time by camping there until a route is found between the constant bombardment of gas clouds.
You're right about umbra and Primal scream though, hence Umbra should be hive 1 ability...so that it is most effective (especially with its nerfs) for helping gorges to build and helping skulks to attack........and primal scream should be a second hive ability to help tackle the late game HA's, to help take down outposts quickly, and to help defend hives against teched up marines.
Spores should be relegated to hive 3...they're the only non-support weapon that can't be classed as self defence (ie spikes, which are needed for self preservation)...and as I've said, the swaps and moves above will mean lerks HAVE to be a supportive unit, and have to promote teamwork amongst the aliens (a good thing <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> ). Spores at hive three continue to help kill marines quickly...
of course the reply to this is "omg at hive three spores are useless against HA!!!!?!?!?", but that doesnt matter. At hive three you're either winning, which means any HA's won't be around long and your sporing of the marine IP's and base will only reduce marine res (Meds) and effectiveness...or the marines will be staging an ultimate comeback, in which case you shouldn't be sporing anyway, you should be supporting with umbra and primal scream!
Phew, long post...but I have a reputation for it.. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> sorry <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
I know I have done it, and I'll do it again. I know I should ignore the lerk, And I do a lot of the times, but a lot of times, its not a good strat to leave a lerk outside your base in a vent, when you know when you leave, he is going to spore again. It hurts the team and your expansion. Plus the comm has to waste res on healthpacks for you after you get away from the lerk.
I say, along with a few other posters, move spore to a hive 2 ability and make it so if it is used on rines, then the rines deserved it for not getting HA fast enough. If the rines did happen get HA fast enough for spore to be useless, aliens didnt do a good job anyway. That would make the lerk more support and less attack becuase it would be basically only useful after hive 2. I dont see the problem with that. It would make hive 2 more critical.
And about that fade crap that other people were saying, how the fade isnt worth the 50 res. You guys dont know how to use the fade obviously. If you as a fade use the warp ability, I believe its called blink, (i dont know because i have hud_fastswitch 1, and it doesnt show what the things i have out are called) and then they rush into a group of rines, with regen and adren, they can easliy rack up the kills and get out fast again using blink, or warp whatever its called. Ive seen nurmerous, skilled NS players come and rack up the kills with the fade using this tactic, And I have done it myself, but I am less skilled at actuallyin hittin the rines with my claws, but thats just me.
Glad someone with a bit of rep around here feels this too. Apparantly they're weak, but for an alien that is supposed to be fragile, they usually outlast all the others out there.
I tend to find taking out lerks is easy enough if they're stupid enough to get close to the base, and half my lerk kills have come from sneaking into some corner on its route and chasing it from behind, getting it in a crossfire.
Now...while I accept that lerks should be hard to kill at range, and need tactics like crossfires and entrapment to get it...those lerks that are actually good players shouldn't be able to get so close to a marine base and make such an impact on it with relatively little risk of getting shot down.
-Lee
Is there really 20 res worth of difference between the havoc a fade can cause, and the havoc a lerk can cause? Personally, I'd say no. Especially when you get two lerks working together. Two fades tend to get in each other's way.
But you still have to see. Fades are used for what is intended, fighting.
Lerks are used not for what was meant. They are used for attackin marine start with spore and I dont think this was what was intended when people say lerks are support.
But I am talking about early in the game, before hive 2 and before rines get HA or SG, lerks and fades are both deadly. but since fades are worth more, dont you think they should nerk the lerk a little, making spore a hive 2 ability, since lerks are only 30 res
Ok. So, we everyone leaves main base and the Lerk's done sporing he lets the Skulks come in a take out the IP's and everything in there right? GG.
If my math is correct (as in without acually testing) then it should only take 18 bullets to kill a non cara lerk.
With level 3 it only takes 13
Thats not quite a full clip.
With hmg or pistol, 9 level 0 or 7 level 3. And hmgs shoot Fast.
So those things don't really pack a punch. Just a **** to shoot.
I only lerk other than gorge or skulk. I know from experience death usually goes something like this, ouch ooo aw heal "hah full health again already" instant KASPLAT.
I swear i have voodoo umbra, man the numbers of time in "in umbra" and not a single pistol bullet was stopped. Just unlucky sometimes.
Ugh, why do people try to trade off stats that actually mean very little in game to balance the fact that <b>in a lot of circumstances marines are running out of their base to their objective with half the health they should have JUST by spawning and running out of said base</b>
Yes it takes few bullets to STATISTICALLY kill a lerk, so what? Have you tried getting 18 out of 18 lmg bullets to accurately hit a sitting lerk that is in a vent 30 meters away...let alone one that is further away, moving and/or in a vent with regen?
People seem not to take actual game experiance into account when they bandy these stats around unfortunately.
Pistols are the way to kill lerks, and if they will stay still then the lerk will die, of course...but how many of you can honestly hit with a single clip of a pistol, at the range of a long corridor, enough shots to kill that lerk...considering the fact it's either flying in the roof or ducking in and out of a vent?
Then we get back to the ignore the lerk point, which just brings us ALL the way back to the thing I said above that is why should a 30 res unit have such an impact on the game from the get go...and pretty much in an attacking and not supporting role?
-Lee
As for shooting him.... use pistols, and aim for the fat pudgy body. Wing hits dont count, neither do direct headshots unless they're on a line that intersects the big fat body (meaning shooting head from side = miss, whereas shooting head from front = win).
About statistics: what do statistics matter when the dodgy HL netcode doesn't let you know if shots connect or not, and the "real" hitbox is still an upright Gordon Freeman?
As for shooting him.... use pistols, and aim for the fat pudgy body. Wing hits dont count, neither do direct headshots unless they're on a line that intersects the big fat body (meaning shooting head from side = miss, whereas shooting head from front = win). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you people know how big a lerk looks when he's just sitting STILL at the end of a corridor, let alone when he's flapping about with half his body apparantly in the cieling? Can I refer you to my above statement that blanket "out of game" statements such as "just aim for his body" really honestly have no place in a critisism of the "in game" lerk prowess.
And I still think you miss the point. The lerk could be at an outpost, sporing there...and he might kill a few more people, yes...or he could do as he is and spore marines as they spawn and leave them so that they are phasing to the outpost they have to defend with only two thirds of the health they should have...most of the time drawing at least one or two marines to constantly try to kill him there.
Hypothetically, on paper and statistics, a lerk that is sporing base does nothing, and a lerk isn't a very good attack option. Then again on paper I wouldn't say that I should be able to go head to head with a marine as a gorge and win with most of my health intact...but I can. On paper a lone marine shouldn't be able to hold an res tower against a rush of three skulks...but we know that in the right hands that can happen quite readily too.
Unfortunately lads (and ladettes), we don't play this game on paper, so stop trying to win me over with your pen <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> In game lerks have a dominant and full impact on the marine game from a minute in, usually the time it takes marines to relocate. If you could please stop with the foolish talk of "well learn to aim" and such, and just think for one minute about how hard it is to hit something like a lerk (it's akin, in my experiance, in trying to hit a fade that is blinking away from you with your pistol), and with the combinations of vent systems, long coridoors, speed of a lerk and evolution upgrades...think about just how long a lerk can stay alive.
I know as a lerk I have never died, regeneration and adrenaline and I've been set. I keep to vents, I stick to long coridoors and that is that. I keep my distance and I'm done...I also get a lot of kills, more than I would if I were a skulk, about as many as I do in a skulk/onos combination game. As a marine, the only time I've killed a lerk is in the following two scenarios
1) The lerk is following his onos/fade + gorge and skulks into the base where they're all attacking. Seeing that they have to be stopped, I pick my target. Everyone else shoots at the onos, obviously, but I decide to sweep around and hit the lerk who is in the thick of umbra'ing and sporing. He's too close and thats why he died, simple as.
2) A lerk has just been chased off from a long coridoor by another marine, and seeing my chance I quickly run to the other end of the coridoor. Knowing he won't bother to look both ways before he comes out to spore again, I wait. Voila, he pops out with his **** to me, and for it he gets a clip full of LMG fire. he dies.
Thats is *it*, I've maybe once or twice <i>luckily</i> killed a lerk at lond distance, but I will hold my hand up and say this is more due to spraying and praying while the lerk gets caught on something jutting out of the cieling.
Along with this he is also one of the more competant...and more importantly consistant...attacking units in the game. But isn't the lerk meant to be a support unit? Drop all this bull about the lerk being easy to kill statistically, and honestly answer the question....how is a support unit a support unit when he is near unbeatable alien that can quite happily take out and severly damage marines at their spawn if he is so inclined, and in the later games absolutely dominate the marines in a killing sense? Why is the support unit sitting on his own firing at marines and not with a group of skulks giving umbra or working with a gorge to protect it more efficiently than a skulk can? Why is it that sitting on his own dealing gaseous death is actually not only a better tactic for his res whoring self, but also a better tactic for the rest of the team that barely have to do any work to kill the weakened marines marching out of their spawn?
Why is the most effective type of team aid a lerk can give nothing to do with working with the team, and nothing to do with support!?!
<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
-Lee
About statistics: what do statistics matter when the dodgy HL netcode doesn't let you know if shots connect or not, and the "real" hitbox is still an upright Gordon Freeman? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm touched <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
-Lee
If my math is correct (as in without acually testing) then it should only take 18 bullets to kill a non cara lerk.
With level 3 it only takes 13
Thats not quite a full clip.
With hmg or pistol, 9 level 0 or 7 level 3. And hmgs shoot Fast.
So those things don't really pack a punch. Just a **** to shoot.
I only lerk other than gorge or skulk. I know from experience death usually goes something like this, ouch ooo aw heal "hah full health again already" instant KASPLAT.
I swear i have voodoo umbra, man the numbers of time in "in umbra" and not a single pistol bullet was stopped. Just unlucky sometimes. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Problem is: LMG has just an OK range and OK power and SG is a no-go against lerks (long versus short range? um ok).
A pistol works... if the lerk is dumb enough to just stand there...
HMGs can kill them with their range and power. Not fair considering marines can't get HMGs until an AA. They also need HA (high tech) to defeat spore. Though I see that as fair since it totally negates it (hard counter). Jps also work great too since it negates the lerks ability to run away.
Test this yourself. Get someone to fight you as lerk 1 v1 and the lerk will win if he stays out of your lmgs range. Your aim won't do crap since the bullet spread will go around the lerk half the time.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and usually lerks do that
We were doing great. Locked down biodome, rushed furnace and blew it away. Unfortunately an onos came and killed us all. Repeatedly. Lost furnace. Desperate for resources, we headed to the double node room. Began to set up there and were CONSTANTLY spored. We took the elevator to the upper floor of the node room and saw the lerk hiding in the teal vent.
... but the gap was too big for a marine to jump. We could do NOTHING but spray and pray. We'd hit him, he'd retreat and you'd hear 'Galoomp galoomp' as he was healed. We were powerless while he just spored us to death.
Played a game on Veil: Locked down Pipeline. Headed to cargo. I set up a phase gate and everyone poured through, and we set up a turretbase right there. And there we go, a lerk is sporing us. I can't even SEE him. He's on the other side of the hallway, WAY FAR AWAY. You could barely hit him with your pistol. Spored us with impunity, and I just got to watch as my health counted down by fives. the commander desperately tried to keep us alive but we ran out of resources. We all died. And we were powerless.
The other half is the fact that the counter to lerks themselves (as opposed to just spores) requires a proto lab and takes almost as much res as HA to research (35 for JP, 40 for HA, I believe)! I reckon JPs should be available for the marines' midgame; it would help the vent problems, as well as the fact that without PGs, marines have a horrendous response rate to threats. How about making JP research available at the armoury (for 25 res), requiring an arms lab, for example?
Let's look at his weapons :
Spikes : Takes a really long time to hurt someone, concentrate on one target.
Spores : Does minimal damage, althogh spread out over an area, it's easy enough to escape taking perhaps 20 damage max.
Umbra : This is where lerk becomes really good. However, at 2 hives, marines should have Gl's researched, which cut through umbra.
Priaml Scream : Useful, but it's just an addition to the massive force, and not something that wins a game on it's own.
Another thing is that it's almost useless to lerk at one hive. You can't umbra yourself or anyone else, and you only have one chamber. For sensories, the natural choice is SOF. For moves, you take adren. For D, regen.
SOF without anything isnt very useful. Adren helps a lot, but without an ability to heal( and no umbra), you die instantly. Regen is also very useful, but without adren, lerks can't do much before running out of energy.
Even though you can lerk at one hive, lerks basically are a 2 hive alien.
oh, right.. and just sit there and let them gas the IP's(or whatever) ?... I think not!!
In a cloud your health rapidly goes down..dont know if anyone has experimented on how much damage it does if you stood in a cloud until it disapated? but I reckon you end up on about 30 health (no armour upgrade)... if the lerk hasnt been chased off, and another cloud comes, death.
!!Brave!! is the marine the rushes after the lerk, full well he knows he is going to die..
but while that lerk is NOT gasing (and waiting to spike someone) this gives the commander and the marines time enough to heal, and sort out some kind of defence.
With Luck that marine might do some damage,
With even more luck.. he might be followed up by a similar brave soul to finally put him to bed!
one standard marine sacrificing himself to buy a few seconds of time can be invaluble!
welcome to the forums, but SoF will get ya and usually when im lerk i always check for marines trying to set up an ambush and i go around another way, and i pretty sure most lerks do that
I sense minor sarcasm <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
-Lee
Well in my experiance a good lerk will spore enough that it takes up to 30 health off of you if you simply try to get out of the cloud, and marines end up on no more than 40 health if they stick around to get ammo or build structures. At this stage it's not the fact it takes a long time (though a marine only needs to be around in that gas for 20 seconds at worst, if the marine decides to chase the lrk he'll die quite quickly by the spike).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Another thing is that it's almost useless to lerk at one hive. You can't umbra yourself or anyone else, and you only have one chamber. For sensories, the natural choice is SOF. For moves, you take adren. For D, regen. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And isn't this a problem? He can't umbra himself or anyone else at one hive....so what use is he as a support unit? Until the second hive is up, the lerk is redundent as a support unit...and so he goes and make an opposite impact to support by being a lone non-team player and sporing marine bases and outposts
By the way, I assume you've all tried to put up an outpost while being constantly spored. You should all know that the time it takes to build a PG/TF 4 turrets and 2 Sieges well exceeds that 20 second mark, and thats assuming that no skulks attack your weakened self, and the lerk doesn't spike you either. This isn't "supporting" the team, it's simply being an attacking unit that is highly effective. This is even at one hive.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->SOF without anything isnt very useful.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tell that to the lerks that use it to make sure no-one sneaks up on them and so that they keep their distance.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->with a good aim, you can easily take out a lerk. one lmg clip usually does the trick and if you can take it out with the lmg clip, finish it off with the pistol. Aiming is the key.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you even reading this thread? How many games of NS do you play where all the players are evenly spaced from each other and never move? Aiming would be the key if there weren't so many issues with hitting a lerk that is flying, or infact if the lerk was stupid enough to come within 20 meters of a marine.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->but while that lerk is NOT gasing (and waiting to spike someone) this gives the commander and the marines time enough to heal, and sort out some kind of defence.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And so you're wasting time! If you are chasing about a lerk that is gassing your base, then yeah, you might eventually kill it (because a good lerk wil take ages to kill, usually as long as it takes to get onos), and what have you got to show for it? You haven't expanded, you haven't got any hives, you've done nothing but concentrate res and time on a single lerk.
The only argument I can see is that this may be a method of support for the lerk, by tying up the marine team for a long time...but then I don't like the impact the lerk still has if it *doesn't* tie the marine team up at all, it still causes significant damage....and I don't like the fact it isn't actually acting in a bread and butter support capacity, that is defensively protecting the other aliens and helping them do the killing and defending.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->welcome to the forums, but SoF will get ya and usually when im lerk i always check for marines trying to set up an ambush and i go around another way, and i pretty sure most lerks do that<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Too right, I mean a lerk on his own is deadly, without upgrades...but factor in SoF and/or regen...that is one very tough lerk in the right hands. Can't be snuck up on, and is rarely killed. I have no problem with this of course, except it is so often used in an attacking capacity, and not support.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Spikes : Takes a really long time to hurt someone, concentrate on one target.
Spores : Does minimal damage, althogh spread out over an area, it's easy enough to escape taking perhaps 20 damage max.
Umbra : This is where lerk becomes really good. However, at 2 hives, marines should have Gl's researched, which cut through umbra.
Priaml Scream : Useful, but it's just an addition to the massive force, and not something that wins a game on it's own.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The spikes are a lot more effective when the marines you're firing at have just ran for 5-10 seconds through the gas any good lerk has laid. As for the 20 damage max? Try 20 damage minimum, unless you manage to find a nook in your base and you want to waste marine time by camping there until a route is found between the constant bombardment of gas clouds.
You're right about umbra and Primal scream though, hence Umbra should be hive 1 ability...so that it is most effective (especially with its nerfs) for helping gorges to build and helping skulks to attack........and primal scream should be a second hive ability to help tackle the late game HA's, to help take down outposts quickly, and to help defend hives against teched up marines.
Spores should be relegated to hive 3...they're the only non-support weapon that can't be classed as self defence (ie spikes, which are needed for self preservation)...and as I've said, the swaps and moves above will mean lerks HAVE to be a supportive unit, and have to promote teamwork amongst the aliens (a good thing <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> ). Spores at hive three continue to help kill marines quickly...
of course the reply to this is "omg at hive three spores are useless against HA!!!!?!?!?", but that doesnt matter. At hive three you're either winning, which means any HA's won't be around long and your sporing of the marine IP's and base will only reduce marine res (Meds) and effectiveness...or the marines will be staging an ultimate comeback, in which case you shouldn't be sporing anyway, you should be supporting with umbra and primal scream!
Phew, long post...but I have a reputation for it.. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> sorry <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
-Lee