<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Lerk is hardly used anyway, so if the xperts can use it like it is currently being used (and get complaints like these,) then so be it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
are u kidding me? yesterday i played a game with 5 lerks on the alien side.... and when i play games i always see 2 ppl as lerk or more
<!--QuoteBegin--Diablus+Sep 2 2003, 08:26 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Diablus @ Sep 2 2003, 08:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Lerk is hardly used anyway, so if the xperts can use it like it is currently being used (and get complaints like these,) then so be it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
are u kidding me? yesterday i played a game with 5 lerks on the alien side.... and when i play games i always see 2 ppl as lerk or more <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> How many fades do you see? Fade is such a huge investment and so hard to use that very few people bother with fade any more. What's left? Skulk - too easily killed in later stages of game. Lerk - Can attack from a distance so low HP don't mean instant, useless death. Onos - Have to save a good while to be an onos and even then they die much more easily then in 1.x
So lerk becomes the evolution of choice for people wanting to attack as something other then a skulk. Because there are far more lerks then before, there are far more lerk kills and people figure lerks are unbalanced, should be relegated to support only roles, etc.
I lerk because I don't really like onos that much ( Unless our team needs one and I have the res), and I'm no good with fade ;/ But hey, whatever benefits the team.
<!--QuoteBegin--Ahnteis+Sep 2 2003, 03:34 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ahnteis @ Sep 2 2003, 03:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How many fades do you see? Fade is such a huge investment and so hard to use that very few people bother with fade any more. What's left? Skulk - too easily killed in later stages of game. Lerk - Can attack from a distance so low HP don't mean instant, useless death. Onos - Have to save a good while to be an onos and even then they die much more easily then in 1.x
So lerk becomes the evolution of choice for people wanting to attack as something other then a skulk. Because there are far more lerks then before, there are far more lerk kills and people figure lerks are unbalanced, should be relegated to support only roles, etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Whoa... Perfect. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--BlueNovember+Sep 2 2003, 08:59 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BlueNovember @ Sep 2 2003, 08:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Lerk is hardly used anyway, so if the xperts can use it like it is currently being used (and get complaints like these,) then so be it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Lerks are so hardly used that at hive one I see at least one, usually two, and by the end game there are possibly 3...in games of 9 a side?
Lerks are hardly uncommon, and to say that they wouldn't be used if spore was taken away from first hive is premature and unfounded.
<!--QuoteBegin--Ahnteis+Sep 2 2003, 09:34 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ahnteis @ Sep 2 2003, 09:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So lerk becomes the evolution of choice for people wanting to attack as something other then a skulk. Because there are far more lerks then before, there are far more lerk kills and people figure lerks are unbalanced, should be relegated to support only roles, etc. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Very very good point, and one that can easily be used as an example for why lerks need to be reattuned to a support role. Doing so will certainly mean more need for fade to be used if you want attacking capability.
I'm not sure swapping umbra and spores would help the marines out all that much. Aliens almost always have a second hive up before the five minute mark as it is - about the same time as (if not before) lerks themselves appear, unless someone saves for one at the start. This change would only help against the latter. Maybe make lerk 35 res? I'm not sure that that much can be done about it; spores is the kind of weapon that's either too potent, or too limp.
Perhaps make it so that it does more damage, but it only takes starts causing damage after a few seconds of exposure. That way it becomes more area denial, and also gives a spawnign marine a couple of seconds to peg it out of the cloud.
but if u swat umbra with spores then the lerk is a support class providing umbra to the team and using spikes at hive 1 for self defense, i dont see how the team benefits with lerks at hive 1 becuase mariens usually run after the lerk through the spores and get spored more and more
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How many fades do you see? Fade is such a huge investment and so hard to use that very few people bother with fade any more. What's left?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To step in briefly (I've had this debate during 1.0x, with both community members, forum mods & devs andI have no urge to repeat it) But Fade is underused because people expect a tank. I go Fade every game now, because they're rare, and I will die, because sooner or later you <b>always</b> bite off more than you can chew. But I'll take down maybe 10-15 marines or 2-3 HA's. In which case, the 50 rez was well spent .
The Fade (and to a lesser extent, the Lerk also) requires high levels of situational awareness, and be a good opportunist. The Fade is fine as it is, the problem lies with the inexperience of the players.
Anyway.
Back to Lerks I think. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
I would guess that one reason people are bitching about lerks is that they are incredibly irritating to the marines, particularly when using spores. Anything that's irritating (see devour) will be perceived to be stronger than it actually may be. When you actually look at the stats of how many people die to spores, I would guess it's a lot lower than you probably think.
That's not to say that lerks or spores specifically are overpowered or underpowered, it's just the way that people's perceptions may cloud the issue.
<!--QuoteBegin--Shockwave+Sep 2 2003, 11:01 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Shockwave @ Sep 2 2003, 11:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> To step in briefly (I've had this debate during 1.0x, with both community members, forum mods & devs andI have no urge to repeat it) But Fade is underused because people expect a tank. I go Fade every game now, because they're rare, and I will die, because sooner or later you <b>always</b> bite off more than you can chew. But I'll take down maybe 10-15 marines or 2-3 HA's. In which case, the 50 rez was well spent .
The Fade (and to a lesser extent, the Lerk also) requires high levels of situational awareness, and be a good opportunist. The Fade is fine as it is, the problem lies with the inexperience of the players.
Anyway.
Back to Lerks I think. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
- Shockie <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Doesn't matter if the fade is balanced - it's harder to use so more people go lerk. I'm saying the lerk gets more kills because there are more lerks then before.
30 res = HMG level cost. HMG kills how many skulks? (Don't forget you can pick it up and keep using it unlike an alien evolution.)
<!--QuoteBegin--clamatius+Sep 3 2003, 01:32 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (clamatius @ Sep 3 2003, 01:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> That's not to say that lerks or spores specifically are overpowered or underpowered, it's just the way that people's perceptions may cloud the issue. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That is very much a true statement, however I would have hoped that I've shown mainly here reasons that the lerk needs some modification for nothing but alien sides perspective.
However I think it's also fair to say that in a lot of circumstances the fact spore lives in a hive 1 ability spot, causes issues with balance, especially as it's effect is different from on half of all the maps to the remaining half.
Now, these 5 problem maps could be redesigned so that the bases aren't so lerk prone...or some minor modification can be done to the lerk <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Also, not to sweep this topic off topic...but I agree with Shockwave, but I think shockwaves comment itself actually supports Ahnteis's comment tbh. Over all this all makes sense too, because people I see rarely spend 50 res at fade, they've either spent it for lerk or are waiting for onos. So perhaps such ideas posed in this thread would mean that those that want a "killer" class fast, they should go fade if they can't wait for onos.
Maybe this can be used to make it balanced to whoever think it's unbalanced (I do, but I use it. Ya..so i'm a hyprocrite..kiss my..umm..cheek <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->)
As it stands I believe spores does like 15 damage max (and lets say it is). At hive 1 it would do 8-10 damage At hive 2 it would do 11-13 damage At hive 3 it would do 14-15 damage
Maybe this can be used to make it balanced to whoever think it's unbalanced (I do, but I use it. Ya..so i'm a hyprocrite..kiss my..umm..cheek <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->)
As it stands I believe spores does like 15 damage max (and lets say it is). At hive 1 it would do 8-10 damage At hive 2 it would do 11-13 damage At hive 3 it would do 14-15 damage
Just something I thought of a few times. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> it currently does 8-11 hp damage per second, not sure how it is so variable, maybe something to do with being on outskirts of the spore cloud. As I said, you'll be dead after 11 seconds in spore clouds without med backup.
By the way, no sarcasm or ****, I'm getting serious deja vu right now. <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--clamatius+Sep 2 2003, 07:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (clamatius @ Sep 2 2003, 07:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I would guess that one reason people are bitching about lerks is that they are incredibly irritating to the marines, particularly when using spores. Anything that's irritating (see devour) will be perceived to be stronger than it actually may be. When you actually look at the stats of how many people die to spores, I would guess it's a lot lower than you probably think.
That's not to say that lerks or spores specifically are overpowered or underpowered, it's just the way that people's perceptions may cloud the issue. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You sir, deserve a medal.
"The gorge rush is an anomaly. You can't Fade-Build-Defenses or Onos-Heal-the-hive."
Mm, its only an anomaly if you don't accept the lerk as a support-attack unit. The lerk, imo, is as anomalous as the gorge. Both are most certainly support classes, but one is easier to exploit. Yes, the gorge rush needs brains, and thats why its hard to pull off and thus not often cited as a balance problem, player problem, class problem, etc.
However, lerks are too easy to use. A fact brought up by other posters after me too <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
"at the end of the day a single gorge does nothing except that which is in the interest of supporting the team defensively."
Bad gorge players, as I have said, heal noone, and camp at their chambers which may or may not be useful. They may also drop a chamber against the team's wishes. And again, there is no solution for this. Other than education, obviously.
I view these unsupportive lerks in the same light. A gorge looking after his OC wall near a base is no different from the Lerk looking after his kill score near a base. And I don't think mangling the Lerk (just because its used more) is the solution.
On the map issue, this is where I'm going to start saying things about Relocation maps. IMHO the maps are chosen so that you need to use different strategies.... and in some cases that means staying in marine spawn, and others it means a relocate. It might be a cop out but thats the way I see it....
"Bast...nuff said I think, especially if some idiot welds the vent."
Yeah, Bast is pretty open, hence I think a relocation in the direction of engine is what's required.
"Eclipse, too easy by far."
I play eclipse a lot, and I'm very friendly with that vent (even building OC towers so that I can climb in as gorge and put OC/SENS in it to stop JPers escaping <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> ) and to the best of my abilities, I cannot shoot from that vent into the railing area. The leftmost entrance on the mapview is free from my harassment. Marines can get out that way avoiding most of the damage (bit of clip as they leave, assuming they hop the rail) but tbh in that situation you can build a turret at the RT so it can shoot into the vent, or reloc entirely.
"this was the map I managed to get to sporing their base in a minute in"
I'd guessed so, I do the same thing - and if its not sporing it's usually scouting the marines. If they don't present themselves I have to end up leaving and trying something else.
"Lost, talk about ease of sporing"
Tbh Lost is a nightmare for marines, period. The hidden away CC is a liability, and the base itself is so open that Skulks are more of a problem than Lerks. I don't think Lerks are advantaged above any other class on this map.
"Veil... far too easy to lead people through a good 15 meters of spore cloud as soon as they leave the immediate vicinity of their buildings"
I understand, but the same accusation can be levelled at any room on any map if its near a corridor/vent. Both corridors can be covered by turrets (I advocate pushing out past the neares res nodes and putting up bases there).
"Caged, from the vent if needed, though actually the worst place to spore from.."
Word. However with turrets in the main corridor, you cover the vent and both corners, putting a stop to most popup lerk attacks unless he's very good. That keeps base free and allows you to get out..... after that of course you're on your own.
"Hera"
Which tbh is a reloc by necessity, since anything can get into the base. Building on the walkway means you're skulk fodder.
As for lork on the clorf, yeah, it sucks. Fun, but sucks.
"Mineshaft"
Again easy for any class of alien. Skulks hide well, gorges have ample opportunity for OC chokepoints. I don't see the lerk having any advantage (dbl res nodes are always open, and I'm concentrating on marine bases).
"Origin"
Yeah, the vent above that door is a nice hidey hole, as it covers the route to laser drilling. Once the doors are closed (and base usually turreted) the marines are free to rush through Science or lose a bit of health going to Laser. So I agree with you on that.
This map is generally free of issue, though the door at the far end of the base by the res tower can be very nice to spore from, a single marine on base duty can keep him at bay usually though to keep him at laser drilling or further back.
Tanith/Nothing could be covered by the same argument as Veil - in that corridors outside the base can be spam spored. They're not as long as veil's but they can still take a hefty chunk of health.
IMHO though there's nothing on any of these maps thats not countered with a bit of wit and good turret placement if you want to discourage lerks.
"Turrets don't solve the problem in the early game as most commanders I know trade off base defenses with turrets for expansion and teching anyway..."
I agree, I've seen the same in most games, but in my opinion if you're under lerk siege, you need to adapt to combat that.... or suffer the consequences. Countering a lerk means good marines or base defence... stopping you spending res on tech/expansion and which in turn fulfils the Lerk support role offensively.
I also agree that a competent lerk player can popup/out and spore, then duck back - moreso with regen. However maps like Caged have that main corridor where you can place 5-6 turrets that will cover both corners and the vent. One burst is enough to make a lerk rethink his popout, and will certainly slow the rate of fire. Second, because he has to popout, you can pretty much charge past him en masse, and he'll not see it coming barring SoF.
"Taking that into account, you add another 3 or 4 maps that have lerk issues to the list."
Though I see those long corridors as out of base problems that are countered with an initial fast expansion. Once you get past the corridors in veil you can set up a reasonable defence. Corners are on every room in every map - lerks hide near them, so do skulks. I don't think the lerk gains a greater advantage than the skulk, in my opinion.
"That is the length of a decent sized coridoor...it's the length generally from the archway in caged to going around the corner towards sewer."
Yes, and from my point of view, if you're running through it while fully aware of a lerk's presence, then its a futile and rather silly rush. I don't think the lerk should suffer for futile rushes.
"You know you can't technically build outside feedwater for example to set up a siege point thanks to spore?"
You can't siege many places, and spore is partially to blame. Sieging a hive (built) usually means MCs and incoming aliens very quickly. On an unbuilt hive, yes the lerk would have the advantage, but area denial is his job, and if he couldn't spore the siege, sieges would up a lot faster and that would drastically affect game balance.
Where we differ here is that I would view this as a negative effect (no real way to break a siege while you wait for reinforcements, moving spore to hive 3 makes lockdowns insanely easy and a one hive lock means zero use of spore throughout the game) and you, I believe, would be of the opinion that it would positively affect balance/play.
IMHO marines aren't meant to follow "go to hive, siege hive, build base in hive, go to next hive" strats. Removing the spore means they'll have an easier time of building, and once the turrets are up it'll be a long game for kharaa as they try to take it down. Spore is essential here at first hive as it can control the marine pop at a siege long enough for a tfac or PG to go down IF the marines can be contained.
You get a TF set down, that takes...I can't remember, but it's probably just enough time to get killed if you're building it on your own by a couple of spore clouds. Then take into account the PG? The three turrets minimum? just the one siege because we're strapped for cash? That is in my books at least two deaths worth of marine, if there's three marines building...six deaths.
Damn...I mean, tbh any marine team facing that without med spam (which is an awful lot of constant res, a lot wasted too since spore is so gradual) will die before the Turrets are built. Sooooo, which is more effective, the spore cloud that effectively stops the mini-base being built, or the primal scream which enables it to be taken down faster, with possible minor alien losses.
Now of course, if the base is already built, spore becomes a little less useful compared to primal scream. That I can conceed. Does this make primal scream more effective. In my opinion it does not.
QUOTE In some maps its called WELDING. On others, its TURRETS. On Hera, it's probably called RELOCATION.
"lerks can be in your base before you put down the non-effectual turrets"
And if its in base and you can't counter it, the logical thing to do is relocate. And you can get at least one turret down if you can discourage the lerk from sticking its head out (pick one brave volunteer to chase the lerk).
"one vent in all ten maps that will give you little aid against lerks."
Two maps have an important vent, by my count.
"And if you relocate it is usually to a double res point or a hive..."
Tbh its a deliberate suicide to reloc to a dbl res. I think the game is designed that way. Hive relocations do work but again only as an aggressive strat. Several maps have rooms that lend themselves well to Base formation and at the same time are fairly lerk free. Gen room on Nothing, Aft on Bast. Relocation is rarely performed adequately, in my experience. I don't see the need to rearrange the lerk to make it easier for the comm.
"As I've said above, this is only 5 out of the 10 maps at most, and this is only if the base is at marine spawn and not at popular relocate points in those maps..."
Yes, and I've suggested that some maps effectively demand relocation. Since its a map based problem, I don't see how modifying the lerk will solve the problem of open bases.
"You think that all I'm talking about is the lerk sporing directly over IP's?"
Not really, the point I was raising was that if you place everything in sporerange then you should expect to die in droves. I understand your example of caged, but a few turrets up force the Lerk to stay futher back (instead of right at the base, he has to lerk at the first "real" corner, before the room) and from there he can't gauge when marines are going to charge past him. Secondly to spore the CC hideyhole he'll have to round the corner, in full turret view, get in a position to spore the CC (some halfway down the corridor), fire, and then get back up the corridor and round the corner. Which is really more hassle than its worth, and close to impossible past 2-3 shots if you're not got regen. You can pop out and spore the opposite corridor but again that relies on blind luck (or SoF) to catch marines leaving that way.
"You also over estimate the ability of turrets against lerks."
Only if well placed. I don't expect them to kill, but I certainly expect them to deter.
"when you couple that worry WITH the lerk, it's a very bad headache indeed."
True, but then the lerk is acting in its support role, and we're concerned with lerk abuse.
I counter Caged above, with the suggestion of turrets in the main corridor covering the vents and both corners. That pushes lerks back a fair bit, gives you some breathing room and from what I've tried, also means you've to soak up a decent bit of turret fire before shooting one cloud at the CC.... and you've to hope that the IP is near it. Otherwise you aim for the middle of the main corridor (at the turrets themselves) and that would cover the largest area, but misplace your cloud and marines could run right through.
The point is, its harder for the lerk to take huge advantage of the marines. You'd need to be a good lerk indeed to pull it off, and thus moves us from the topic of selfish lerk players abusing marine bases.
"It's not so simple as you're making it out to be...as I said, on paper hiding the IP's might sound like the perfect plan, in game all it usually does is mean you're further from an exit and thus have more cloud to walk through."
By the above plan the lerk is forced to hide back at another corner and spore the middle of the room/corridor. Thats not on paper, thats from game experience. I concede that you probably will not leave the room with full health, but for the lerk to catch ALL of the squad they'll need to have picked the same corridor, or the lerk has to have been a very good player to accurately drop the cloud.
"A gorge that builds OCs at any point is denying the marines area"
And a lerk sporing at any point is denying the marines the ability to expand. I personally have seen gorges sit in totally out of the way areas and kill nothing. In fact they've sat at their WoL on one side of the hive while the marines come in the other. Gorges really can be exceptionally useless. Its hard to be a totally useless lerk, but I disagree with the concept that making the lerk harder to use would somehow improve it.
The fade is hard to use. Its not very popular either. That doesnt mean I think the solution is to make it easier to use - it just takes practice. The lerk is a cheap entry level class for an alien player. Its the one people will understand the most. The lerk, even if rambo sporing, is still slowing the marines down. Its how you see my idea of the rambo gorge - you think those OCs are still hampering the marines and fulfilling the gorge's role, whereas I see colossal gorge waste.
"Can a gorge bilebomb a marine building for himself without it benefiting the team?"
Can a lerk spore a corridor without it benefitting the team? We're assuming competent players, not the type who bilebombs marines or spores under his feet to look at the gas <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
"Can a gorge build any building without it having the possiblity of supporting the team in some way."
Ditto the lerk. It can spore any group of marines and it supports the alien team in some form.
"idiot gorges that don't play for the team usually get themselves killed and as such pay for their mistakes, lerks that aren't playing for the team get spore kills and spike kills in abundance."
Nuh uh, idiot gorges can survive the whole game by hugging their OC nest and building chambers near it alone. They don't pay for their mistakes, not in the form of dying. They do however drag the whole team down, especially when the gorge can't be relied upon for healing. Lerks don't die, they get some kills, and at the end of the day they are doing their job by hampering marine expansion. Yes, they could umbra and scream for you, but at the same time the gorge hugging his OC nest could be bilebombing buildings or healspraying your cara onos. The two concepts are interchangeable - its just that one is more widespread than the other.
"I've already stated that the third hive game (in which the last scenario happens) is a completely different game, as every alien is geared towards te destruction of a marine team...thats the whole purpose, so the game ends quickly."
And the gorge COULD be helping with that.... or could be elsewhere building OCs. Likewise, the Lerk could be Screaming..... or elsewhere flapping aimlessly. (We're talking third hive endgame - OCs are pointless).
"The odd one out is the lerk that has his specifically skewed offensive ability for quick dispatch of losing marines as a first hive ability."
Which relies on people to run through mostly visible clouds. The lerk only appears skewed because he gains all his offensive abilities at game start.... but if he didnt, then who do aliens rely on for area denial? OCs wont do it, and skulks are easily stopped by marines - but the spore is the great equaliser.
"Secondly the gorge bilebombing things (and that alone) is a support for its team"
So's sporing the enemy base. And team support is most certainly not required. One gorge can annihilate hive lockdowns, and at the very least can remove TFs with impunity and without backup.
"and most CERTAINLY at hive one, they have very specific tasks to be doing, except the lerk."
I disagree. At hive one, skulks are fast ways to get to an RT. Or they scout. If they're good, they rush. Gorges at hive one can cap res, or drop a chamber, perhaps assist a rush by providing healing. Fades/Onos at one hive have only one role, and thats generally because you're not meant to see them at one hive. So the ranged offensive slot is filled by the lerk.
"because lerk sporing can be a hastle wether the marines are incompetant or not, a point you seem to not want to grasp old of and accept."
No no, I can grasp that they *hassle* marines, but I disagree that they're marine killers, crippling to any base expansion, overpowered, etc etc.
"I am saying MOVE spores and rearrange lerk abilities to reattune them to the role it should be doing."
Moving spore is a nerf compared to the current hive one lerk, you would have to agree. It removes the only ranged area attack from the alien armoury and makes competent sieging almost impossible to break at one hive. With spores, sieging becomes a challenge, not a walkover. Moving it to hive 3 means you'll never have a chance to employ it - the first lockdown will be remarkably easy, and thats the end of that. The lerk has to rely on spikes, which while good aren't great, and nowhere near as multipurpose as spores. Second, it means he'll have to go round those corners to get at marines. He'd be useless at a siegebase, because getting in sight to fire at marine means standing infront of turrets for more time than a popup spore attack.
On the one hand, yes this does mean less people will abuse the lerk, but it also means aliens will rarely if ever get to use hive 3 abilities because your antihive1 lockdown strat will consist of Skulk Rush over and over. IMHO that is most certainly a nerf. Even if we take into account Scream or Umbra, at hive one it'll mean Mov chambers as a necessity to get any use out of Umbra if you're taking a siege base - locking the kharaa into a set pattern. Currently, the kharaa strats are very flexible.
"is it the lerks fault that he can see an IP from a vent/doorway" "On 5 maps out of ten, he has almost no choice but to be able to."
On 6 of ten maps you *need* to expand out of base, and I'd say on 2 of those you need to seriously look at relocation.
What I see are map quirks that a lerk player has a more effective time exploiting at game start. Mid - end game, the lerk is wholly reliant on his friends. Its an interesting balance. Spore is a necessity early game because quite honestly nothing else is like it. Skulks would be lucky to cause the same damage. Gorges certainly wouldn't. Fades couldn't, and you don't see Onos earlygame. Its a necessary evil, and balanced classwise with the fact the late game HA marines can laugh in the face of lerks, while every other class can do at least some damage.
"Back to the post now?"
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> Yes most certainly.
"Would you like to explain how moving the spore ability is a nerf?"
I hope I've covered it in the above and previous post. Spore is a valuable ability at game start, and required to slow marine expansion. You could all go Gorge and drop 2 ocs but I'd wager marines will find that easier to get past than organised spores. The counterweight is that mid/end game spore is useless.
Removing spore makes lockdowns easier - that means no hive three abilities for anything, dragging the game out until the marines HA into the final hive, or aliens can work up enough Onos to pile through the sieges. While I do enjoy challenging games, I find something inherently wrong with a balance that guarantees a one hive lockdown.
I understand that a marine comeback negates the spore, but imho thats the perfect balance for the lerks earlygame area denial. IMHO earlygame marines move to easy to defend bases, tech up, and then expand. Aliens expand early, tech up, then go on the offensive. The earlygame is most certainly in the aliens favour, the endgame is the realm of the marines.
I think I've covered the gorge/lerk comparison, the devour camp onos was basically a comparison to the area denial of the lerk (you don't dare leave base through that exit because the onos/spore will kill you.)
"unfortunately (and no offence here) you have no authority to make that claim, as you don't know how the lerk would work with the new (and tbh, radically changed) makeup of lerk abilities."
Likewise. You see a positive outcome, I see a negative. Hopefully I've illustrated mine clearly.
If its any comfort, at the end of the day I'm as sick of selfish players as the next kharaa, I just the think the problem is with those players and their misuse of alien classes.
"At first hive, the lerk helps his team with spore, at second hive a load of marine res and a mini-base is taken out with primal scream. The marines have no res, and so are just turret farming. The lerk at hive three then has spores to fire at marines to weaken them and end the game quicker, also has the other abilities."
Confuses me. Spore at first hive, primal at second, spore at third? Assuming spikes at first hive, the lerk is reliant on teamwork (spikes are good but vent sniping is a lot harder than dropping area effect clouds from a vent) - teamwork is good but the gorge is cheaper and can spam up DC/OC to help himself if need be. For the lerk's price, I expect him to be good earlygame, and spikes would be a liability with his hitpoints (bunnyflapping all round trying to hit someone is not nice).
how is this different from 2.0?
Essentially, come the end game, looking over all...it changed nothing, except it made the lerk go about his first hive and half of his second hive game differently. The lerk hasn't been dissadvantaged by the change at all, and the team have gained from it.
"Scenario 2"
Would be the most common, since without sporing lerks to slow marine expansion you could almost guarantee a one hive lock. No spores, period. Lockdown very hard to break, even with primal scream, 3 DCs and regen (or 3MC and adren). And would require virtually the whole team (6-8?) to rush the siege to get it down remotely fast enough. While this is teamwork, its teamwork only by breaking everyone's legs and forcing them to rely on each other.
And even with Scream and Umbra, I've yet to see a bunch of skulks take an HA train.
"In 2.0 as a lerk I might as well just not bother because right now all I've got is spore...but in this update, voila, umbra!"
By sacrificing its earlygame strength, scenario 2 has been forced on the alien team. The lerk player may in fact wonder why he went lerk at all, since the res for a weak sniper was probably better spent on a fade who can at least kill in 2 hits.
From a pub server background, I can't see it working. Spikes simply don't kill fast enough, nor do they bog down a whole marine team. They're great for picking off lone rambos though. Spores don't kill fast, but they don't need to because they bog down a marine team.
"That by moving spores to third hive we make sure the lerk has to help the team"
Which I can't accept as a valid solution. I disagree with a train of thought that says some lerk players aren't using their support weapons, so we should attempt to force them to by throwing off the balance.
"a gorge does need protecting, very much so, for it's 10 res."
10 res is dirt cheap, not really missed, and in the time it takes to gestate you've effectively enough to go back to gorge/drop a chamber. Gorges improve on a par with marines as time goes on. Lerks start well and get horrendously hamstringed in the later game. I do not think any alien should be forced into a position so that it *must* be played a certain way...
Lerks are fun. Great fun to gas the marines in their base... they have hardly any health so they're easy to kill if you catch one, so the skill is in being able to attack and retreat, then come back for some more gas chamber fun. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
You're right. Spores hardly ever get kills, unless marines were badly weakened before. The only problem is that they're so quick and manuevarable, nothing hardly ever hits it. ( Just like Jps in 1.04).
I just won't add anything new to this topic, but after this comment:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->i'm reading this and waiting for someone to quote the entire thread <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> from Gnat, wich made me laugh alot, I felt like briefly summing up (somehow, in my human capacities) the good ideas (from my opinion) of the early posts of the topics, from page one to page 8. Mostly because I think this was a really good topic, and that maybe someone else (maybe developpers) may find it of some interest. I didn't go further for the summary because from page 8-9 to 10, it would have taken too much time to sum up, since some of the last posts of Niaccurshi and Necrosis are really really about too precisely specifical points to be efficiently sumed up, and because theses are amazingly long posts solely anwsering to each other's. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
As I'm sure of the interest someone may take by reading these, I thus won't deny him the pleasure of reading those from start to end <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Topic started with Diablus stating the fact that Lerks were really too much annoying, with the proposition of "lowering their HP" or even raising their rez cost, providing the fact that they were a "weapon of mass destruction" instead of a support unit in a group of 2-3 lerks. Later posts stated the fact that Lerks were able to rack up 40kills in a round, and that it was a little bit... alot for a class said to be supportive. We also thought about the impact of Lerks, particularly about their early game impact and the issue oriented itself on spores (sporing to death marine start from the beginning).
Various propostions regarding these issues, were:
1) chasing or not the Lerk (in the particular situation of marine start sporing): since letting him gaz the place with impunity wouldnt be possible, because it cripples marines who just ignore him and go for WPs, then some of the most intersting proposals were to ambush him (by waiting for him and shooot him in the back after making him fly away) and having the com place the essential structures somehow out of sight of the Lerk. Indeed, being a marine sharpshooter may help with pistol (long range) or shottie (short/close range).
This laid to the fact that Lerks were really hard to kill, because of their "extrem" agility (like trying to kill a moving target wasnt hard enough, try to kill a flying target <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->), but also because of the fact that while "hugging" the ceiling of alot of maps their hitboxe couldn't be aimed at (or it could, but it wasnt able to be hit), even if the legs of the creature were in plain sight: "I think the problem here is when the lerks fly a good half of their model clips into the roof, this not only looks bad, it also confuses people as to where they need to shoot with only a par of legs sticking out of the ceiling. "
2) Moving Spore from hive1 ability to hive 2, or 3 ability. This had some good points as:
-if lerks were to have Umbra as first hive ability, this would encourage its support class feature. Most of the lerks only looking for kills and not for teamplay use their first hive ability (spores) and don't really mind for the others abilities. People waiting for their support abilities (2nd and 3rd hive abilities) wouldn't have to wait for a second hive to be created before doing this role.
-if spores were to be placed at 2d hive ability, it wouldn't render it ueseless, as the discussion allowed us to see that, usually most of end-games see alot of Heavy Armors on the marine side, thus having spores at hive 3 would render it useless (if aliens loose).
-Another reason for spore not being a first hive ability is the fact that, after something like 30 minutes in a game, if the aliens managed to build one or two hives but lose control on them, the marines would by the time it takes to get to this, all in Heavy Armors. Thus, as the aliens are back to their first hive ability, the Lerkis then rendered pretty useless (spore dosnt affect Heavies), while if they had Umbra as first hive ability, they could still be of some help at this point.
3) Changing the way players use the Lerk: If players keep on using the Lerk only to rack up kills, then this is something the Dev' team can't help, but in taking extrem measures (like remonving the spore ability), in order to balance the actions of a derogatory group of players (all players don't play this way). NS being a game mostly oriented toward teamplay, players should try to adapt themselves to feat this spirit.
4) Changing the way players see the spore ability: As many have seen, being gazed over and over and over, and a little more, may affect the way we see the spore ability: we may find it overpowered because of the fact that we can't help but repeatedly die from it.
We also had to remember that the purpose of a Lerk wasn't to be solely a support class, but also a Guerilla Class unit, thus the spore cloud ability (or so we could assume the reason for the Dev' team to implement such a trait to the Lerk). Having a word from the Dev' team on the way they perceive the Lerk (about the guerilla and Support issues) would have been appreciated too.
Ok, here it is, I hope I didn't cliped too much things out. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Lerks are fun. Great fun to gas the marines in their base... they have hardly any health so they're easy to kill if you catch one, so the skill is in being able to attack and retreat, then come back for some more gas chamber fun. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this is what i mean, the typical NS player as a lerk, the devs say there for support only, well i dont see how spores and spikes support the alien team at hive 1
Chase him away, ask for a 10 res shottie, wait around a corner/under a vent for the lerk to come back, bye bye 30 res for the alien team.
may god have mercy on your soul when a skilled fade attacks <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Necrosis+Sep 3 2003, 07:27 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Sep 3 2003, 07:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> "at the end of the day a single gorge does nothing except that which is in the interest of supporting the team defensively."
Bad gorge players, as I have said, heal noone, and camp at their chambers which may or may not be useful. They may also drop a chamber against the team's wishes. And again, there is no solution for this. Other than education, obviously. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> OK, lets see if I can cut out a load of this and answer it in less post time <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> (note, if I've cut something out it's either because I've answered it somewhere else, because it's not to do with the discussion, or because I agree generally)
The difference here is that the gorge at hive one has the ability to do its support thing, bad player or not a lerk does not. Also, when the game has gone on for ages and the marines have fought on to get you back to one hive, the gorge is still able to help..again, bad player or not, the lerk can't...probably even less than at the game start.
I agree mostly with what you're saying here, though I just have to reitterate the point that in your cases of "you can say that about any corridoor" etc...I don't think you can, because generally you're not forced to wth every spawn of yourself walk through those coridoors.
If you are, then it's just another example, to me, of why the lerk doesn't support enough...why they are able to frag **** too much...and even more annoyingly, why their attack isn't even guerilla like.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I agree, I've seen the same in most games, but in my opinion if you're under lerk siege, you need to adapt to combat that.... or suffer the consequences. Countering a lerk means good marines or base defence... stopping you spending res on tech/expansion and which in turn fulfils the Lerk support role offensively.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which although I'm not really against in general, I'm against in 2.0...I'm not so sure about 2.01 as I've not had enough experiance of good lerks in this version. In 2.0 however (and so probably quite likely in 2.01) the marines can be far too easily waylaid by lerks...nay not plural, singular...A lerk and have it costing them the game.
However that is more an issue to do with marines having too much reliance on needing to cap 4 or 5 res points in a map...so I'm not goign to go into lerks involvement here.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, and from my point of view, if you're running through it while fully aware of a lerk's presence, then its a futile and rather silly rush. I don't think the lerk should suffer for futile rushes.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And on the flipside I don't think it's entirely fair that marines can be pinned down so very freely, and should suffer because of lerks being fraghunters.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->you, I believe, would be of the opinion that it would positively affect balance/play.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I believe my idea brings up issues that I can't possibly say would turn out good or bad...however yes, I do think that it would help some gameplay issues, and I hope that it would. Yes a one hive lock down would mean spores would be rarely used, however the trade off here is that I think having primal scream and umbra at your disposal would also help take out those fortified lock downs easier as a team than spore and umbra, yet harder as a bunch of individuals than spore and umbra.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->IMHO marines aren't meant to follow "go to hive, siege hive, build base in hive, go to next hive" strats. Removing the spore means they'll have an easier time of building, and once the turrets are up it'll be a long game for kharaa as they try to take it down. Spore is essential here at first hive as it can control the marine pop at a siege long enough for a tfac or PG to go down IF the marines can be contained.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unfortunately, regardless of moving abilities, spore is simply too powerful in this respect. I don't pay attention to build times, but I'm pretty sure a turret takes just under ten seconds, a TF just over, a siege probably about the same as a TF? I'm not sure, but all I know is that to build up a adequette base (even hiding from spore while the TF upgrades), you need to be in the spore cloud for more than the 30-35 seconds it'd take to kill you twice over just on that one attack.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And if its in base and you can't counter it, the logical thing to do is relocate.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The trouble is that most relocation places in the map are hardly any better against lerks, and if they are they're skulk bait...and on a seprate thread effort, I absolutely hate relocations...and I think it's kind of sad that the place the marines have been put to start their attack on the aliens is one that is so weak stategically to battle the enemy...doesn't make sense to me. But again, thats another thread.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Two maps have an important vent, by my count.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Eclipse you mean? Thats the only other weldable vent I can think of...though I can't think right now tbh <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> That would be a fair point, I missed that one.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, and I've suggested that some maps effectively demand relocation. Since its a map based problem, I don't see how modifying the lerk will solve the problem of open bases.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, though I was more pointing towards the maps being a problem...but showing examples (as requested <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->) of bases that lerks can cause a significant impact on, which you seem to have agreed with.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I understand your example of caged, but a few turrets up force the Lerk to stay futher back (instead of right at the base, he has to lerk at the first "real" corner, before the room) and from there he can't gauge when marines are going to charge past him. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I still can't agree with this for the double reason that marines can't afford to defence their base enough for this and still win the game, and for the fact that a decent lerk won't be phased by a couple of turrets (unless they are, as you say, in the main corridor..something else that rarely happens) firing a single round at him every time he pops around to spore...especially with regen. It certainly wouldn't put him so far back the marines could rush him imo.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"A gorge that builds OCs at any point is denying the marines area"
And a lerk sporing at any point is denying the marines the ability to expand. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The difference is one is able to be countered, the other realy isn't, not at the stages we are talking about.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> but I disagree with the concept that making the lerk harder to use would somehow improve it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So do I, though I'm not proposing to make the lerks game harder <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> I may have proposed other things such as fixing the ceiling problem (as did many others), but to make the lerk game harder would be to take some of its mobility away, or weaken its HP...not move its abilities around.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The lerk, even if rambo sporing, is still slowing the marines down. Its how you see my idea of the rambo gorge - you think those OCs are still hampering the marines and fulfilling the gorge's role, whereas I see colossal gorge waste.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think that a bad gorge (in alien terms) is something that is much easier to replace (thanks to res cost and the sheer need for multiple gorges in the early game), is easy to counter in marine terms and as such...it doesn't really detriment the aliens team game so much as a lerk not supporting does. A bad lerk (in alien terms) is a lot harder to replace with someone to do the job, and it very hard to counter when they are good.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The two concepts are interchangeable - its just that one is more widespread than the other.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can't agree with this on a few levels. Lerks make for dull games either one way or the other if they are fragwhoring with spore...a lone gorge being an idiot with his chambers doesn't do such a thing, just limits his usefulness to one room. I'm going to refer also back to my point that gorges are a lot easier to find than lerks. Most importantly, come the end of the game, if the lerk hasn't helped his team and has had minimal effect with his spores, then it'll come back to bite the whole team in the **** when the lerk can no longer support the team even if he wanted to.
A lerk is helping his team when he spores, no one can argue that fact...however it either brings the marines to a stupid end where the aliens dominate without effort, or it doesn't do a thing and the aliens are without this lerk that is meant to be so useful in support. At first hive this is one of my problems with it...come the end of the game when the aliens are BACK to one hive, it's the whole sperate issue of the lerks being ineffectual without it being any fault of their own.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And the gorge COULD be helping with that.... or could be elsewhere building OCs. Likewise, the Lerk could be Screaming..... or elsewhere flapping aimlessly. (We're talking third hive endgame - OCs are pointless).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And it does, the end game is where the gorge runs in, plops a couple of OC's to draw fire (not building them, just putting them down) and webbing everywhere so that the aliens have lots of helpless marines. Web is very much (as you have sort of suggested) quite an offensive as well as defensive tool...all third hive abilities should be geared towards quickening the end game like this.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Which relies on people to run through mostly visible clouds. The lerk only appears skewed because he gains all his offensive abilities at game start.... but if he didnt, then who do aliens rely on for area denial? OCs wont do it, and skulks are easily stopped by marines - but the spore is the great equaliser.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Too great, and as such the marine game pays for it. While gorges OC up on side of the map, lerks spore the other half...(in a good lerks case)...and this just kills the marine game from the get go. He's skewed because having spores at a first hive is illogical on just as many levels as it's logical.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I disagree. At hive one, skulks are fast ways to get to an RT. Or they scout. If they're good, they rush. Gorges at hive one can cap res, or drop a chamber, perhaps assist a rush by providing healing. Fades/Onos at one hive have only one role, and thats generally because you're not meant to see them at one hive. So the ranged offensive slot is filled by the lerk.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Skulks are and always will be through the game the all round scout/attack unit. They have a wide single task merely because they have to be, they're the spawning class, and it is seach and destroy. Gorges at first hive build build build. If they're providing healing it's mostly while they are building up. Fades and onos are obvious as you say...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Moving spore is a nerf compared to the current hive one lerk, you would have to agree.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It nerfs the offensive ability of a lerk at hive one, yes...but overall it nerfs the lerk 0%.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It removes the only ranged area attack from the alien armoury and makes competent sieging almost impossible to break at one hive. With spores, sieging becomes a challenge, not a walkover. Moving it to hive 3 means you'll never have a chance to employ it - the first lockdown will be remarkably easy<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Assuming umbra doesn't do its job and the alien team doesn't work as a team...yes, sieging will be remarkably easy. I personally as an alien player or a marine player wouldn't weep at the loss of spore at hive one. Though it's just my opinion, I think it's too much too early for aliens, they have a bit of everything right from the get go...and people wonder why marines have it tough?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Second, it means he'll have to go round those corners to get at marines. He'd be useless at a siegebase, because getting in sight to fire at marine means standing infront of turrets for more time than a popup spore attack.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He wouldn't be useless, as long as his team are there. It should be a team effort to take out something as massive as a siege base, not a one man show. He shouldn't be spiking and attacking the marines, and with my proposal he wouldn't be in the open any more than with spore, as he'd be umbraing up the area in the same manner as spore...it just means other people would need to do the killing that should be fairly easy to do with teamwork.
Without spore or umbra right now, a group of three of four skulks can usually (if they're good) take out a siege base...so it's not like removing spore would allow siege bases, it just means that one man can't rule the roost.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Even if we take into account Scream or Umbra, at hive one it'll mean Mov chambers as a necessity to get any use out of Umbra if you're taking a siege base - locking the kharaa into a set pattern. Currently, the kharaa strats are very flexible.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think anyone can say such a thing... Lerks right now either spore to help or don't...if they don't skulk rushes happen, if they do, then skulk rushes may still happen. This doesn't change with Umbra, it just means that a lerk can't do it on his own. I don't think anyone can foretell such thigs as locking kharaa into a set pattern.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Its a necessary evil, and balanced classwise with the fact the late game HA marines can laugh in the face of lerks, while every other class can do at least some damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I on the other hand see it as stupid. An overly effective ability at hive one that hopes to kill the marines game so they don't get to expand to get HA, or else they are useless when the HA's do come (assuming the HA's are dominating through the hives). It seems a lot more sensible to me to move the ability so that it isn't so powerful at the early game, and utterly 100% useless at the marine end game (aliens losing), to a place where it makes the lerk equally effective in its abilities...or at least equally able to be useful, no matter where abouts in the game it is.
Hive three is where abilities deserve to be if they have the possibility of not being very helpful at some point, hive one and basic ability are where things need to be if they're always essential. Umbra, imo, is more instantly and constantly essential than spore.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"unfortunately (and no offence here) you have no authority to make that claim, as you don't know how the lerk would work with the new (and tbh, radically changed) makeup of lerk abilities."
Likewise. You see a positive outcome, I see a negative. Hopefully I've illustrated mine clearly.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The difference is I'm not proposing that I know either, all I'm saying is that it should be given a chance and be given the balancing touch. In such circumstances I can't see logically how the lerk or alien game will be nerfed as a result, yet at the same time the marine game will be aided on a small part...in theory.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If its any comfort, at the end of the day I'm as sick of selfish players as the next kharaa, I just the think the problem is with those players and their misuse of alien classes.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And I think that education is something that shouldn't be needed when a few alterations means that the lerk need not be educated at all. You're totally right that gorges need educating, nothing will stop this however...you can't change its abilities, the way it builds or whatever, you can't do this without seriously ruining the gorge game.
However, the lerk can be changed on paper (and thats all we have right now) to help the issues it has, without a need to educate the players.
I'd much rather take this easier (as a player) option, than have to help educate every player...a lot of which won't listen...in which case changing the lerk is an even better option as it stops THOSE players in their tracks anyway! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Confuses me. Spore at first hive, primal at second, spore at third? Assuming spikes at first hive, the lerk is reliant on teamwork (spikes are good but vent sniping is a lot harder than dropping area effect clouds from a vent) - teamwork is good but the gorge is cheaper and can spam up DC/OC to help himself if need be. For the lerk's price, I expect him to be good earlygame, and spikes would be a liability with his hitpoints (bunnyflapping all round trying to hit someone is not nice).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What a time to have a moment of stupidity, I meant Umbra first, as I've been arguing for <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Personally I'd like the lerk to be useless enough for the first few minutes of the game that that 25 res is spent on putting a res tower up before he saves for lerk...personally.
Anyway, replace the first spore, with umbra, and you have the example in its correct way <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo-->
Would be the most common, since without sporing lerks to slow marine expansion you could almost guarantee a one hive lock. No spores, period. Lockdown very hard to break, even with primal scream, 3 DCs and regen (or 3MC and adren). And would require virtually the whole team (6-8?) to rush the siege to get it down remotely fast enough. While this is teamwork, its teamwork only by breaking everyone's legs and forcing them to rely on each other.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can't agree, your analysis is too final for me, and I can't see the loss of spores as so detrimental to the early game for aliens. If it IS such a loss, however, I think that says a lot about spore and how stupidly overpowered it is.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And even with Scream and Umbra, I've yet to see a bunch of skulks take an HA train.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've yet to have seen a lerk ever help against a HA train. maybe these changes would.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->By sacrificing its earlygame strength, scenario 2 has been forced on the alien team. The lerk player may in fact wonder why he went lerk at all, since the res for a weak sniper was probably better spent on a fade who can at least kill in 2 hits.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Precisely. Although I don't agree that scenario 2 is a dead cert (even though it's almost a dead cert for a one hive lock down in 2.0 ANYWAY). As I've said, if such things help more people use the fade or learn to use the fade...another plus for me.
There's certainly an element of just difference of opinion here...while you seem ok with the fact the lerk is powerful at the early game and much less useful in the late, I think it's a flaw for the lerk to be that way. I think that pretty much sums up what we're countering and re-countering with <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Trevelyan+Sep 3 2003, 09:48 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Trevelyan @ Sep 3 2003, 09:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> you people serious? you cant take out a lerk?
so sad...
Chase him away, ask for a 10 res shottie, wait around a corner/under a vent for the lerk to come back, bye bye 30 res for the alien team. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Bwahahahaha
*points at the 100th customer of the "did not read a single bit of this thread" award*
<!--QuoteBegin--Diablus+Sep 3 2003, 02:50 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Diablus @ Sep 3 2003, 02:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Lerks are fun. Great fun to gas the marines in their base... they have hardly any health so they're easy to kill if you catch one, so the skill is in being able to attack and retreat, then come back for some more gas chamber fun. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this is what i mean, the typical NS player as a lerk, the devs say there for support only, well i dont see how spores and spikes support the alien team at hive 1 <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Um, easy, the spores can lock marines down in a location, or weaken them for a more concentrated attack by the rest of the aliens.
How come everyone is all up in arms about Lerks not being a "support" class? Doesn't anyone realize that artillery and air strikes are support? That's why they call it "Air Support" or "Artillery Support." They do lots of damage but they tend to do it from a distance. Lerks fit this description extremely well.
Lerks are a support class. Please accept that a support class can be extremely deadly in combat.
<!--QuoteBegin--Frahg+Sep 3 2003, 10:29 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Frahg @ Sep 3 2003, 10:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> How come everyone is all up in arms about Lerks not being a "support" class? Doesn't anyone realize that artillery and air strikes are support? That's why they call it "Air Support" or "Artillery Support." They do lots of damage but they tend to do it from a distance. Lerks fit this description extremely well.
Lerks are a support class. Please accept that a support class can be extremely deadly in combat.
Frahg <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> or in the lerks case not at all deadly when it needs to be supporting the most....yet overly deadly when it doesn't need to support so much. The whole lerk game is revolving around killing marines before they start, and as many games played on 2.0 show, not so sure about 2.01, lerks do kill the marine game in the first few minutes, the other 15 minutes are a formality.
Not that that is the point for some of us, some of us would merely like the lerk to actually umbra when it's able to, rather than fly off on its own to spore some more.
The only thing it supports is its own res income and the bring about of a boring game.
<!--QuoteBegin--Xzilen+Sep 3 2003, 10:19 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Xzilen @ Sep 3 2003, 10:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Um, easy, the spores can lock marines down in a location, or weaken them for a more concentrated attack by the rest of the aliens. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> they support the alien *game* at hive 1, they don't support the alien *team*
<!--QuoteBegin--niaccurshi+Sep 3 2003, 04:39 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (niaccurshi @ Sep 3 2003, 04:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Xzilen+Sep 3 2003, 10:19 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Xzilen @ Sep 3 2003, 10:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Um, easy, the spores can lock marines down in a location, or weaken them for a more concentrated attack by the rest of the aliens. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> they support the alien *game* at hive 1, they don't support the alien *team*
-Lee <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Is there something wrong with supporting the goals of a team? Not all support units have to be medics. Just because the lerk doesn't give back to the team the way a gorge does doesn't mean he's not a support class. His job is to do supportive things like weaken strong encampments (by long range sniping of turrets and sporing) and kill at a distance. The lerk is a support unit the way artillery or a sniper are support units.
There's nothing wrong with that and it's a perfectly acceptable use of the term "support unit." The lerk doesn't have to be nerfed into a flying gorge just to be a support unit.
Comments
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
are u kidding me? yesterday i played a game with 5 lerks on the alien side.... and when i play games i always see 2 ppl as lerk or more
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
are u kidding me? yesterday i played a game with 5 lerks on the alien side.... and when i play games i always see 2 ppl as lerk or more <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
How many fades do you see? Fade is such a huge investment and so hard to use that very few people bother with fade any more. What's left?
Skulk - too easily killed in later stages of game.
Lerk - Can attack from a distance so low HP don't mean instant, useless death.
Onos - Have to save a good while to be an onos and even then they die much more easily then in 1.x
So lerk becomes the evolution of choice for people wanting to attack as something other then a skulk. Because there are far more lerks then before, there are far more lerk kills and people figure lerks are unbalanced, should be relegated to support only roles, etc.
That isn't a shotgun, that's a f'ing anti-aircraft weapon - Sn4tch
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Skulk - too easily killed in later stages of game.
Lerk - Can attack from a distance so low HP don't mean instant, useless death.
Onos - Have to save a good while to be an onos and even then they die much more easily then in 1.x
So lerk becomes the evolution of choice for people wanting to attack as something other then a skulk. Because there are far more lerks then before, there are far more lerk kills and people figure lerks are unbalanced, should be relegated to support only roles, etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whoa... Perfect. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Lerks are so hardly used that at hive one I see at least one, usually two, and by the end game there are possibly 3...in games of 9 a side?
Lerks are hardly uncommon, and to say that they wouldn't be used if spore was taken away from first hive is premature and unfounded.
-Lee
Very very good point, and one that can easily be used as an example for why lerks need to be reattuned to a support role. Doing so will certainly mean more need for fade to be used if you want attacking capability.
-Lee
Perhaps make it so that it does more damage, but it only takes starts causing damage after a few seconds of exposure. That way it becomes more area denial, and also gives a spawnign marine a couple of seconds to peg it out of the cloud.
To step in briefly (I've had this debate during 1.0x, with both community members, forum mods & devs andI have no urge to repeat it) But Fade is underused because people expect a tank. I go Fade every game now, because they're rare, and I will die, because sooner or later you <b>always</b> bite off more than you can chew. But I'll take down maybe 10-15 marines or 2-3 HA's. In which case, the 50 rez was well spent .
The Fade (and to a lesser extent, the Lerk also) requires high levels of situational awareness, and be a good opportunist. The Fade is fine as it is, the problem lies with the inexperience of the players.
Anyway.
Back to Lerks I think. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
- Shockie
That's not to say that lerks or spores specifically are overpowered or underpowered, it's just the way that people's perceptions may cloud the issue.
The Fade (and to a lesser extent, the Lerk also) requires high levels of situational awareness, and be a good opportunist. The Fade is fine as it is, the problem lies with the inexperience of the players.
Anyway.
Back to Lerks I think. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
- Shockie <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Doesn't matter if the fade is balanced - it's harder to use so more people go lerk. I'm saying the lerk gets more kills because there are more lerks then before.
30 res = HMG level cost. HMG kills how many skulks? (Don't forget you can pick it up and keep using it unlike an alien evolution.)
That is very much a true statement, however I would have hoped that I've shown mainly here reasons that the lerk needs some modification for nothing but alien sides perspective.
However I think it's also fair to say that in a lot of circumstances the fact spore lives in a hive 1 ability spot, causes issues with balance, especially as it's effect is different from on half of all the maps to the remaining half.
Now, these 5 problem maps could be redesigned so that the bases aren't so lerk prone...or some minor modification can be done to the lerk <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Also, not to sweep this topic off topic...but I agree with Shockwave, but I think shockwaves comment itself actually supports Ahnteis's comment tbh. Over all this all makes sense too, because people I see rarely spend 50 res at fade, they've either spent it for lerk or are waiting for onos. So perhaps such ideas posed in this thread would mean that those that want a "killer" class fast, they should go fade if they can't wait for onos.
hmm? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
-Lee
Maybe this can be used to make it balanced to whoever think it's unbalanced (I do, but I use it. Ya..so i'm a hyprocrite..kiss my..umm..cheek <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->)
As it stands I believe spores does like 15 damage max (and lets say it is).
At hive 1 it would do 8-10 damage
At hive 2 it would do 11-13 damage
At hive 3 it would do 14-15 damage
Just something I thought of a few times.
Maybe this can be used to make it balanced to whoever think it's unbalanced (I do, but I use it. Ya..so i'm a hyprocrite..kiss my..umm..cheek <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->)
As it stands I believe spores does like 15 damage max (and lets say it is).
At hive 1 it would do 8-10 damage
At hive 2 it would do 11-13 damage
At hive 3 it would do 14-15 damage
Just something I thought of a few times. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
it currently does 8-11 hp damage per second, not sure how it is so variable, maybe something to do with being on outskirts of the spore cloud. As I said, you'll be dead after 11 seconds in spore clouds without med backup.
By the way, no sarcasm or ****, I'm getting serious deja vu right now. <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
-Lee
That's not to say that lerks or spores specifically are overpowered or underpowered, it's just the way that people's perceptions may cloud the issue. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You sir, deserve a medal.
"The gorge rush is an anomaly. You can't Fade-Build-Defenses or Onos-Heal-the-hive."
Mm, its only an anomaly if you don't accept the lerk as a support-attack unit. The lerk, imo, is as anomalous as the gorge. Both are most certainly support classes, but one is easier to exploit. Yes, the gorge rush needs brains, and thats why its hard to pull off and thus not often cited as a balance problem, player problem, class problem, etc.
However, lerks are too easy to use. A fact brought up by other posters after me too <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
"at the end of the day a single gorge does nothing except that which is in the interest of supporting the team defensively."
Bad gorge players, as I have said, heal noone, and camp at their chambers which may or may not be useful. They may also drop a chamber against the team's wishes. And again, there is no solution for this. Other than education, obviously.
I view these unsupportive lerks in the same light. A gorge looking after his OC wall near a base is no different from the Lerk looking after his kill score near a base. And I don't think mangling the Lerk (just because its used more) is the solution.
On the map issue, this is where I'm going to start saying things about Relocation maps. IMHO the maps are chosen so that you need to use different strategies.... and in some cases that means staying in marine spawn, and others it means a relocate. It might be a cop out but thats the way I see it....
"Bast...nuff said I think, especially if some idiot welds the vent."
Yeah, Bast is pretty open, hence I think a relocation in the direction of engine is what's required.
"Eclipse, too easy by far."
I play eclipse a lot, and I'm very friendly with that vent (even building OC towers so that I can climb in as gorge and put OC/SENS in it to stop JPers escaping <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> ) and to the best of my abilities, I cannot shoot from that vent into the railing area. The leftmost entrance on the mapview is free from my harassment. Marines can get out that way avoiding most of the damage (bit of clip as they leave, assuming they hop the rail) but tbh in that situation you can build a turret at the RT so it can shoot into the vent, or reloc entirely.
"this was the map I managed to get to sporing their base in a minute in"
I'd guessed so, I do the same thing - and if its not sporing it's usually scouting the marines. If they don't present themselves I have to end up leaving and trying something else.
"Lost, talk about ease of sporing"
Tbh Lost is a nightmare for marines, period. The hidden away CC is a liability, and the base itself is so open that Skulks are more of a problem than Lerks. I don't think Lerks are advantaged above any other class on this map.
"Veil... far too easy to lead people through a good 15 meters of spore cloud as soon as they leave the immediate vicinity of their buildings"
I understand, but the same accusation can be levelled at any room on any map if its near a corridor/vent. Both corridors can be covered by turrets (I advocate pushing out past the neares res nodes and putting up bases there).
"Caged, from the vent if needed, though actually the worst place to spore from.."
Word. However with turrets in the main corridor, you cover the vent and both corners, putting a stop to most popup lerk attacks unless he's very good. That keeps base free and allows you to get out..... after that of course you're on your own.
"Hera"
Which tbh is a reloc by necessity, since anything can get into the base. Building on the walkway means you're skulk fodder.
As for lork on the clorf, yeah, it sucks. Fun, but sucks.
"Mineshaft"
Again easy for any class of alien. Skulks hide well, gorges have ample opportunity for OC chokepoints. I don't see the lerk having any advantage (dbl res nodes are always open, and I'm concentrating on marine bases).
"Origin"
Yeah, the vent above that door is a nice hidey hole, as it covers the route to laser drilling. Once the doors are closed (and base usually turreted) the marines are free to rush through Science or lose a bit of health going to Laser. So I agree with you on that.
This map is generally free of issue, though the door at the far end of the base by the res tower can be very nice to spore from, a single marine on base duty can keep him at bay usually though to keep him at laser drilling or further back.
Tanith/Nothing could be covered by the same argument as Veil - in that corridors outside the base can be spam spored. They're not as long as veil's but they can still take a hefty chunk of health.
IMHO though there's nothing on any of these maps thats not countered with a bit of wit and good turret placement if you want to discourage lerks.
"Turrets don't solve the problem in the early game as most commanders I know trade off base defenses with turrets for expansion and teching anyway..."
I agree, I've seen the same in most games, but in my opinion if you're under lerk siege, you need to adapt to combat that.... or suffer the consequences. Countering a lerk means good marines or base defence... stopping you spending res on tech/expansion and which in turn fulfils the Lerk support role offensively.
I also agree that a competent lerk player can popup/out and spore, then duck back - moreso with regen. However maps like Caged have that main corridor where you can place 5-6 turrets that will cover both corners and the vent. One burst is enough to make a lerk rethink his popout, and will certainly slow the rate of fire. Second, because he has to popout, you can pretty much charge past him en masse, and he'll not see it coming barring SoF.
"Taking that into account, you add another 3 or 4 maps that have lerk issues to the list."
Though I see those long corridors as out of base problems that are countered with an initial fast expansion. Once you get past the corridors in veil you can set up a reasonable defence. Corners are on every room in every map - lerks hide near them, so do skulks. I don't think the lerk gains a greater advantage than the skulk, in my opinion.
"That is the length of a decent sized coridoor...it's the length generally from the archway in caged to going around the corner towards sewer."
Yes, and from my point of view, if you're running through it while fully aware of a lerk's presence, then its a futile and rather silly rush. I don't think the lerk should suffer for futile rushes.
"You know you can't technically build outside feedwater for example to set up a siege point thanks to spore?"
You can't siege many places, and spore is partially to blame. Sieging a hive (built) usually means MCs and incoming aliens very quickly. On an unbuilt hive, yes the lerk would have the advantage, but area denial is his job, and if he couldn't spore the siege, sieges would up a lot faster and that would drastically affect game balance.
Where we differ here is that I would view this as a negative effect (no real way to break a siege while you wait for reinforcements, moving spore to hive 3 makes lockdowns insanely easy and a one hive lock means zero use of spore throughout the game) and you, I believe, would be of the opinion that it would positively affect balance/play.
IMHO marines aren't meant to follow "go to hive, siege hive, build base in hive, go to next hive" strats. Removing the spore means they'll have an easier time of building, and once the turrets are up it'll be a long game for kharaa as they try to take it down. Spore is essential here at first hive as it can control the marine pop at a siege long enough for a tfac or PG to go down IF the marines can be contained.
You get a TF set down, that takes...I can't remember, but it's probably just enough time to get killed if you're building it on your own by a couple of spore clouds. Then take into account the PG? The three turrets minimum? just the one siege because we're strapped for cash? That is in my books at least two deaths worth of marine, if there's three marines building...six deaths.
Damn...I mean, tbh any marine team facing that without med spam (which is an awful lot of constant res, a lot wasted too since spore is so gradual) will die before the Turrets are built. Sooooo, which is more effective, the spore cloud that effectively stops the mini-base being built, or the primal scream which enables it to be taken down faster, with possible minor alien losses.
Now of course, if the base is already built, spore becomes a little less useful compared to primal scream. That I can conceed. Does this make primal scream more effective. In my opinion it does not.
QUOTE
In some maps its called WELDING. On others, its TURRETS. On Hera, it's probably called RELOCATION.
"lerks can be in your base before you put down the non-effectual turrets"
And if its in base and you can't counter it, the logical thing to do is relocate. And you can get at least one turret down if you can discourage the lerk from sticking its head out (pick one brave volunteer to chase the lerk).
"one vent in all ten maps that will give you little aid against lerks."
Two maps have an important vent, by my count.
"And if you relocate it is usually to a double res point or a hive..."
Tbh its a deliberate suicide to reloc to a dbl res. I think the game is designed that way. Hive relocations do work but again only as an aggressive strat. Several maps have rooms that lend themselves well to Base formation and at the same time are fairly lerk free. Gen room on Nothing, Aft on Bast. Relocation is rarely performed adequately, in my experience. I don't see the need to rearrange the lerk to make it easier for the comm.
"As I've said above, this is only 5 out of the 10 maps at most, and this is only if the base is at marine spawn and not at popular relocate points in those maps..."
Yes, and I've suggested that some maps effectively demand relocation. Since its a map based problem, I don't see how modifying the lerk will solve the problem of open bases.
"You think that all I'm talking about is the lerk sporing directly over IP's?"
Not really, the point I was raising was that if you place everything in sporerange then you should expect to die in droves. I understand your example of caged, but a few turrets up force the Lerk to stay futher back (instead of right at the base, he has to lerk at the first "real" corner, before the room) and from there he can't gauge when marines are going to charge past him. Secondly to spore the CC hideyhole he'll have to round the corner, in full turret view, get in a position to spore the CC (some halfway down the corridor), fire, and then get back up the corridor and round the corner. Which is really more hassle than its worth, and close to impossible past 2-3 shots if you're not got regen. You can pop out and spore the opposite corridor but again that relies on blind luck (or SoF) to catch marines leaving that way.
"You also over estimate the ability of turrets against lerks."
Only if well placed. I don't expect them to kill, but I certainly expect them to deter.
"when you couple that worry WITH the lerk, it's a very bad headache indeed."
True, but then the lerk is acting in its support role, and we're concerned with lerk abuse.
I counter Caged above, with the suggestion of turrets in the main corridor covering the vents and both corners. That pushes lerks back a fair bit, gives you some breathing room and from what I've tried, also means you've to soak up a decent bit of turret fire before shooting one cloud at the CC.... and you've to hope that the IP is near it. Otherwise you aim for the middle of the main corridor (at the turrets themselves) and that would cover the largest area, but misplace your cloud and marines could run right through.
The point is, its harder for the lerk to take huge advantage of the marines. You'd need to be a good lerk indeed to pull it off, and thus moves us from the topic of selfish lerk players abusing marine bases.
"It's not so simple as you're making it out to be...as I said, on paper hiding the IP's might sound like the perfect plan, in game all it usually does is mean you're further from an exit and thus have more cloud to walk through."
By the above plan the lerk is forced to hide back at another corner and spore the middle of the room/corridor. Thats not on paper, thats from game experience. I concede that you probably will not leave the room with full health, but for the lerk to catch ALL of the squad they'll need to have picked the same corridor, or the lerk has to have been a very good player to accurately drop the cloud.
"A gorge that builds OCs at any point is denying the marines area"
And a lerk sporing at any point is denying the marines the ability to expand. I personally have seen gorges sit in totally out of the way areas and kill nothing. In fact they've sat at their WoL on one side of the hive while the marines come in the other. Gorges really can be exceptionally useless. Its hard to be a totally useless lerk, but I disagree with the concept that making the lerk harder to use would somehow improve it.
The fade is hard to use. Its not very popular either. That doesnt mean I think the solution is to make it easier to use - it just takes practice. The lerk is a cheap entry level class for an alien player. Its the one people will understand the most. The lerk, even if rambo sporing, is still slowing the marines down. Its how you see my idea of the rambo gorge - you think those OCs are still hampering the marines and fulfilling the gorge's role, whereas I see colossal gorge waste.
"Can a gorge bilebomb a marine building for himself without it benefiting the team?"
Can a lerk spore a corridor without it benefitting the team? We're assuming competent players, not the type who bilebombs marines or spores under his feet to look at the gas <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
"Can a gorge build any building without it having the possiblity of supporting the team in some way."
Ditto the lerk. It can spore any group of marines and it supports the alien team in some form.
"idiot gorges that don't play for the team usually get themselves killed and as such pay for their mistakes, lerks that aren't playing for the team get spore kills and spike kills in abundance."
Nuh uh, idiot gorges can survive the whole game by hugging their OC nest and building chambers near it alone. They don't pay for their mistakes, not in the form of dying. They do however drag the whole team down, especially when the gorge can't be relied upon for healing. Lerks don't die, they get some kills, and at the end of the day they are doing their job by hampering marine expansion. Yes, they could umbra and scream for you, but at the same time the gorge hugging his OC nest could be bilebombing buildings or healspraying your cara onos. The two concepts are interchangeable - its just that one is more widespread than the other.
"I've already stated that the third hive game (in which the last scenario happens) is a completely different game, as every alien is geared towards te destruction of a marine team...thats the whole purpose, so the game ends quickly."
And the gorge COULD be helping with that.... or could be elsewhere building OCs. Likewise, the Lerk could be Screaming..... or elsewhere flapping aimlessly. (We're talking third hive endgame - OCs are pointless).
"The odd one out is the lerk that has his specifically skewed offensive ability for quick dispatch of losing marines as a first hive ability."
Which relies on people to run through mostly visible clouds. The lerk only appears skewed because he gains all his offensive abilities at game start.... but if he didnt, then who do aliens rely on for area denial? OCs wont do it, and skulks are easily stopped by marines - but the spore is the great equaliser.
"Secondly the gorge bilebombing things (and that alone) is a support for its team"
So's sporing the enemy base. And team support is most certainly not required. One gorge can annihilate hive lockdowns, and at the very least can remove TFs with impunity and without backup.
"and most CERTAINLY at hive one, they have very specific tasks to be doing, except the lerk."
I disagree. At hive one, skulks are fast ways to get to an RT. Or they scout. If they're good, they rush. Gorges at hive one can cap res, or drop a chamber, perhaps assist a rush by providing healing. Fades/Onos at one hive have only one role, and thats generally because you're not meant to see them at one hive. So the ranged offensive slot is filled by the lerk.
"because lerk sporing can be a hastle wether the marines are incompetant or not, a point you seem to not want to grasp old of and accept."
No no, I can grasp that they *hassle* marines, but I disagree that they're marine killers, crippling to any base expansion, overpowered, etc etc.
"I am saying MOVE spores and rearrange lerk abilities to reattune them to the role it should be doing."
Moving spore is a nerf compared to the current hive one lerk, you would have to agree. It removes the only ranged area attack from the alien armoury and makes competent sieging almost impossible to break at one hive. With spores, sieging becomes a challenge, not a walkover. Moving it to hive 3 means you'll never have a chance to employ it - the first lockdown will be remarkably easy, and thats the end of that. The lerk has to rely on spikes, which while good aren't great, and nowhere near as multipurpose as spores. Second, it means he'll have to go round those corners to get at marines. He'd be useless at a siegebase, because getting in sight to fire at marine means standing infront of turrets for more time than a popup spore attack.
On the one hand, yes this does mean less people will abuse the lerk, but it also means aliens will rarely if ever get to use hive 3 abilities because your antihive1 lockdown strat will consist of Skulk Rush over and over. IMHO that is most certainly a nerf. Even if we take into account Scream or Umbra, at hive one it'll mean Mov chambers as a necessity to get any use out of Umbra if you're taking a siege base - locking the kharaa into a set pattern. Currently, the kharaa strats are very flexible.
"is it the lerks fault that he can see an IP from a vent/doorway"
"On 5 maps out of ten, he has almost no choice but to be able to."
On 6 of ten maps you *need* to expand out of base, and I'd say on 2 of those you need to seriously look at relocation.
What I see are map quirks that a lerk player has a more effective time exploiting at game start. Mid - end game, the lerk is wholly reliant on his friends. Its an interesting balance. Spore is a necessity early game because quite honestly nothing else is like it. Skulks would be lucky to cause the same damage. Gorges certainly wouldn't. Fades couldn't, and you don't see Onos earlygame. Its a necessary evil, and balanced classwise with the fact the late game HA marines can laugh in the face of lerks, while every other class can do at least some damage.
"Back to the post now?"
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> Yes most certainly.
"Would you like to explain how moving the spore ability is a nerf?"
I hope I've covered it in the above and previous post. Spore is a valuable ability at game start, and required to slow marine expansion. You could all go Gorge and drop 2 ocs but I'd wager marines will find that easier to get past than organised spores. The counterweight is that mid/end game spore is useless.
Removing spore makes lockdowns easier - that means no hive three abilities for anything, dragging the game out until the marines HA into the final hive, or aliens can work up enough Onos to pile through the sieges. While I do enjoy challenging games, I find something inherently wrong with a balance that guarantees a one hive lockdown.
I understand that a marine comeback negates the spore, but imho thats the perfect balance for the lerks earlygame area denial. IMHO earlygame marines move to easy to defend bases, tech up, and then expand. Aliens expand early, tech up, then go on the offensive. The earlygame is most certainly in the aliens favour, the endgame is the realm of the marines.
I think I've covered the gorge/lerk comparison, the devour camp onos was basically a comparison to the area denial of the lerk (you don't dare leave base through that exit because the onos/spore will kill you.)
"unfortunately (and no offence here) you have no authority to make that claim, as you don't know how the lerk would work with the new (and tbh, radically changed) makeup of lerk abilities."
Likewise. You see a positive outcome, I see a negative. Hopefully I've illustrated mine clearly.
If its any comfort, at the end of the day I'm as sick of selfish players as the next kharaa, I just the think the problem is with those players and their misuse of alien classes.
"At first hive, the lerk helps his team with spore, at second hive a load of marine res and a mini-base is taken out with primal scream. The marines have no res, and so are just turret farming. The lerk at hive three then has spores to fire at marines to weaken them and end the game quicker, also has the other abilities."
Confuses me. Spore at first hive, primal at second, spore at third? Assuming spikes at first hive, the lerk is reliant on teamwork (spikes are good but vent sniping is a lot harder than dropping area effect clouds from a vent) - teamwork is good but the gorge is cheaper and can spam up DC/OC to help himself if need be. For the lerk's price, I expect him to be good earlygame, and spikes would be a liability with his hitpoints (bunnyflapping all round trying to hit someone is not nice).
how is this different from 2.0?
Essentially, come the end game, looking over all...it changed nothing, except it made the lerk go about his first hive and half of his second hive game differently. The lerk hasn't been dissadvantaged by the change at all, and the team have gained from it.
"Scenario 2"
Would be the most common, since without sporing lerks to slow marine expansion you could almost guarantee a one hive lock. No spores, period. Lockdown very hard to break, even with primal scream, 3 DCs and regen (or 3MC and adren). And would require virtually the whole team (6-8?) to rush the siege to get it down remotely fast enough. While this is teamwork, its teamwork only by breaking everyone's legs and forcing them to rely on each other.
And even with Scream and Umbra, I've yet to see a bunch of skulks take an HA train.
"In 2.0 as a lerk I might as well just not bother because right now all I've got is spore...but in this update, voila, umbra!"
By sacrificing its earlygame strength, scenario 2 has been forced on the alien team. The lerk player may in fact wonder why he went lerk at all, since the res for a weak sniper was probably better spent on a fade who can at least kill in 2 hits.
From a pub server background, I can't see it working. Spikes simply don't kill fast enough, nor do they bog down a whole marine team. They're great for picking off lone rambos though. Spores don't kill fast, but they don't need to because they bog down a marine team.
"That by moving spores to third hive we make sure the lerk has to help the team"
Which I can't accept as a valid solution. I disagree with a train of thought that says some lerk players aren't using their support weapons, so we should attempt to force them to by throwing off the balance.
"a gorge does need protecting, very much so, for it's 10 res."
10 res is dirt cheap, not really missed, and in the time it takes to gestate you've effectively enough to go back to gorge/drop a chamber. Gorges improve on a par with marines as time goes on. Lerks start well and get horrendously hamstringed in the later game. I do not think any alien should be forced into a position so that it *must* be played a certain way...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->i'm reading this and waiting for someone to quote the entire thread <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> from Gnat, wich made me laugh alot, I felt like briefly summing up (somehow, in my human capacities) the good ideas (from my opinion) of the early posts of the topics, from page one to page 8.
Mostly because I think this was a really good topic, and that maybe someone else (maybe developpers) may find it of some interest.
I didn't go further for the summary because from page 8-9 to 10, it would have taken too much time to sum up, since some of the last posts of Niaccurshi and Necrosis are really really about too precisely specifical points to be efficiently sumed up, and because theses are amazingly long posts solely anwsering to each other's. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
As I'm sure of the interest someone may take by reading these, I thus won't deny him the pleasure of
reading those from start to end <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
..........................................................................................................
Topic started with Diablus stating the fact that Lerks were really too much annoying,
with the proposition of "lowering their HP" or even raising their rez cost, providing
the fact that they were a "weapon of mass destruction" instead of a support unit
in a group of 2-3 lerks.
Later posts stated the fact that Lerks were able to rack up 40kills in a round, and that
it was a little bit... alot for a class said to be supportive.
We also thought about the impact of Lerks, particularly about their early
game impact and the issue oriented itself on spores (sporing to death marine start
from the beginning).
Various propostions regarding these issues, were:
1) chasing or not the Lerk (in the particular situation of marine start sporing): since letting him gaz the place with impunity wouldnt be possible, because it cripples marines who just ignore him and go for WPs, then some of the most intersting proposals were to ambush him
(by waiting for him and shooot him in the back after making him fly away) and having the com place the essential structures somehow out of sight of the Lerk.
Indeed, being a marine sharpshooter may help with pistol (long range) or shottie (short/close range).
This laid to the fact that Lerks were really hard to kill, because of their "extrem" agility (like trying to kill a moving target wasnt hard enough, try to kill a flying target <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->), but also because of the fact that while "hugging" the ceiling of alot of maps their hitboxe couldn't be aimed at (or it could, but it wasnt able to be hit), even if the legs of the creature were in plain sight:
"I think the problem here is when the lerks fly a good half of their model clips into the roof, this not only looks bad, it also confuses people as to where they need to shoot with only a par of legs
sticking out of the ceiling. "
2) Moving Spore from hive1 ability to hive 2, or 3 ability.
This had some good points as:
-if lerks were to have Umbra as first hive ability, this would encourage its support class feature. Most of the lerks only looking for kills and not for teamplay use their first hive ability (spores) and don't really mind for the others abilities.
People waiting for their support abilities (2nd and 3rd hive abilities) wouldn't have to wait for a second hive to be created before doing this role.
-if spores were to be placed at 2d hive ability, it wouldn't render it ueseless, as the discussion allowed us to see that, usually most of end-games see alot of Heavy Armors on the marine side, thus having spores at hive 3 would render it useless (if aliens loose).
-Another reason for spore not being a first hive ability is the fact that, after something like 30 minutes in a game, if the aliens managed to build one or two hives but lose control on them, the marines would by the time it takes to get to this, all in Heavy Armors.
Thus, as the aliens are back to their first hive ability, the Lerkis then rendered pretty useless (spore dosnt affect Heavies), while if they had Umbra as first hive ability, they could still be of some help at this point.
3) Changing the way players use the Lerk:
If players keep on using the Lerk only to rack up kills, then this is something the Dev' team can't help, but in taking extrem measures (like remonving the spore ability), in order to balance the actions of a derogatory group of players (all players don't play this way).
NS being a game mostly oriented toward teamplay, players should try to adapt themselves to feat this spirit.
4) Changing the way players see the spore ability:
As many have seen, being gazed over and over and over, and a little more, may affect the way we see the spore ability: we may find it overpowered because of the fact that we can't help but repeatedly die from it.
We also had to remember that the purpose of a Lerk wasn't to be solely a support class, but also a Guerilla Class unit, thus the spore cloud ability (or so we could assume the reason for the Dev' team to implement such a trait to the Lerk).
Having a word from the Dev' team on the way they perceive the Lerk (about the guerilla and Support issues) would have been appreciated too.
................................................................................................
Ok, here it is, I hope I didn't cliped too much things out. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
this is what i mean, the typical NS player as a lerk, the devs say there for support only, well i dont see how spores and spikes support the alien team at hive 1
so sad...
Chase him away, ask for a 10 res shottie, wait around a corner/under a vent for the lerk to come back, bye bye 30 res for the alien team.
may god have mercy on your soul when a skilled fade attacks <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Bad gorge players, as I have said, heal noone, and camp at their chambers which may or may not be useful. They may also drop a chamber against the team's wishes. And again, there is no solution for this. Other than education, obviously. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
OK, lets see if I can cut out a load of this and answer it in less post time <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> (note, if I've cut something out it's either because I've answered it somewhere else, because it's not to do with the discussion, or because I agree generally)
The difference here is that the gorge at hive one has the ability to do its support thing, bad player or not a lerk does not. Also, when the game has gone on for ages and the marines have fought on to get you back to one hive, the gorge is still able to help..again, bad player or not, the lerk can't...probably even less than at the game start.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->On the map issue...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree mostly with what you're saying here, though I just have to reitterate the point that in your cases of "you can say that about any corridoor" etc...I don't think you can, because generally you're not forced to wth every spawn of yourself walk through those coridoors.
If you are, then it's just another example, to me, of why the lerk doesn't support enough...why they are able to frag **** too much...and even more annoyingly, why their attack isn't even guerilla like.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I agree, I've seen the same in most games, but in my opinion if you're under lerk siege, you need to adapt to combat that.... or suffer the consequences. Countering a lerk means good marines or base defence... stopping you spending res on tech/expansion and which in turn fulfils the Lerk support role offensively.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which although I'm not really against in general, I'm against in 2.0...I'm not so sure about 2.01 as I've not had enough experiance of good lerks in this version. In 2.0 however (and so probably quite likely in 2.01) the marines can be far too easily waylaid by lerks...nay not plural, singular...A lerk and have it costing them the game.
However that is more an issue to do with marines having too much reliance on needing to cap 4 or 5 res points in a map...so I'm not goign to go into lerks involvement here.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, and from my point of view, if you're running through it while fully aware of a lerk's presence, then its a futile and rather silly rush. I don't think the lerk should suffer for futile rushes.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And on the flipside I don't think it's entirely fair that marines can be pinned down so very freely, and should suffer because of lerks being fraghunters.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->you, I believe, would be of the opinion that it would positively affect balance/play.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I believe my idea brings up issues that I can't possibly say would turn out good or bad...however yes, I do think that it would help some gameplay issues, and I hope that it would. Yes a one hive lock down would mean spores would be rarely used, however the trade off here is that I think having primal scream and umbra at your disposal would also help take out those fortified lock downs easier as a team than spore and umbra, yet harder as a bunch of individuals than spore and umbra.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->IMHO marines aren't meant to follow "go to hive, siege hive, build base in hive, go to next hive" strats. Removing the spore means they'll have an easier time of building, and once the turrets are up it'll be a long game for kharaa as they try to take it down. Spore is essential here at first hive as it can control the marine pop at a siege long enough for a tfac or PG to go down IF the marines can be contained.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unfortunately, regardless of moving abilities, spore is simply too powerful in this respect. I don't pay attention to build times, but I'm pretty sure a turret takes just under ten seconds, a TF just over, a siege probably about the same as a TF? I'm not sure, but all I know is that to build up a adequette base (even hiding from spore while the TF upgrades), you need to be in the spore cloud for more than the 30-35 seconds it'd take to kill you twice over just on that one attack.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And if its in base and you can't counter it, the logical thing to do is relocate.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The trouble is that most relocation places in the map are hardly any better against lerks, and if they are they're skulk bait...and on a seprate thread effort, I absolutely hate relocations...and I think it's kind of sad that the place the marines have been put to start their attack on the aliens is one that is so weak stategically to battle the enemy...doesn't make sense to me. But again, thats another thread.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Two maps have an important vent, by my count.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
*Thinks*
Eclipse you mean? Thats the only other weldable vent I can think of...though I can't think right now tbh <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> That would be a fair point, I missed that one.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, and I've suggested that some maps effectively demand relocation. Since its a map based problem, I don't see how modifying the lerk will solve the problem of open bases.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, though I was more pointing towards the maps being a problem...but showing examples (as requested <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->) of bases that lerks can cause a significant impact on, which you seem to have agreed with.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I understand your example of caged, but a few turrets up force the Lerk to stay futher back (instead of right at the base, he has to lerk at the first "real" corner, before the room) and from there he can't gauge when marines are going to charge past him. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I still can't agree with this for the double reason that marines can't afford to defence their base enough for this and still win the game, and for the fact that a decent lerk won't be phased by a couple of turrets (unless they are, as you say, in the main corridor..something else that rarely happens) firing a single round at him every time he pops around to spore...especially with regen. It certainly wouldn't put him so far back the marines could rush him imo.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"A gorge that builds OCs at any point is denying the marines area"
And a lerk sporing at any point is denying the marines the ability to expand. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The difference is one is able to be countered, the other realy isn't, not at the stages we are talking about.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> but I disagree with the concept that making the lerk harder to use would somehow improve it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So do I, though I'm not proposing to make the lerks game harder <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> I may have proposed other things such as fixing the ceiling problem (as did many others), but to make the lerk game harder would be to take some of its mobility away, or weaken its HP...not move its abilities around.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The lerk, even if rambo sporing, is still slowing the marines down. Its how you see my idea of the rambo gorge - you think those OCs are still hampering the marines and fulfilling the gorge's role, whereas I see colossal gorge waste.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think that a bad gorge (in alien terms) is something that is much easier to replace (thanks to res cost and the sheer need for multiple gorges in the early game), is easy to counter in marine terms and as such...it doesn't really detriment the aliens team game so much as a lerk not supporting does. A bad lerk (in alien terms) is a lot harder to replace with someone to do the job, and it very hard to counter when they are good.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The two concepts are interchangeable - its just that one is more widespread than the other.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can't agree with this on a few levels. Lerks make for dull games either one way or the other if they are fragwhoring with spore...a lone gorge being an idiot with his chambers doesn't do such a thing, just limits his usefulness to one room. I'm going to refer also back to my point that gorges are a lot easier to find than lerks. Most importantly, come the end of the game, if the lerk hasn't helped his team and has had minimal effect with his spores, then it'll come back to bite the whole team in the **** when the lerk can no longer support the team even if he wanted to.
A lerk is helping his team when he spores, no one can argue that fact...however it either brings the marines to a stupid end where the aliens dominate without effort, or it doesn't do a thing and the aliens are without this lerk that is meant to be so useful in support. At first hive this is one of my problems with it...come the end of the game when the aliens are BACK to one hive, it's the whole sperate issue of the lerks being ineffectual without it being any fault of their own.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And the gorge COULD be helping with that.... or could be elsewhere building OCs. Likewise, the Lerk could be Screaming..... or elsewhere flapping aimlessly. (We're talking third hive endgame - OCs are pointless).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And it does, the end game is where the gorge runs in, plops a couple of OC's to draw fire (not building them, just putting them down) and webbing everywhere so that the aliens have lots of helpless marines. Web is very much (as you have sort of suggested) quite an offensive as well as defensive tool...all third hive abilities should be geared towards quickening the end game like this.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Which relies on people to run through mostly visible clouds. The lerk only appears skewed because he gains all his offensive abilities at game start.... but if he didnt, then who do aliens rely on for area denial? OCs wont do it, and skulks are easily stopped by marines - but the spore is the great equaliser.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Too great, and as such the marine game pays for it. While gorges OC up on side of the map, lerks spore the other half...(in a good lerks case)...and this just kills the marine game from the get go. He's skewed because having spores at a first hive is illogical on just as many levels as it's logical.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I disagree. At hive one, skulks are fast ways to get to an RT. Or they scout. If they're good, they rush. Gorges at hive one can cap res, or drop a chamber, perhaps assist a rush by providing healing. Fades/Onos at one hive have only one role, and thats generally because you're not meant to see them at one hive. So the ranged offensive slot is filled by the lerk.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Skulks are and always will be through the game the all round scout/attack unit. They have a wide single task merely because they have to be, they're the spawning class, and it is seach and destroy. Gorges at first hive build build build. If they're providing healing it's mostly while they are building up. Fades and onos are obvious as you say...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Moving spore is a nerf compared to the current hive one lerk, you would have to agree.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It nerfs the offensive ability of a lerk at hive one, yes...but overall it nerfs the lerk 0%.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It removes the only ranged area attack from the alien armoury and makes competent sieging almost impossible to break at one hive. With spores, sieging becomes a challenge, not a walkover. Moving it to hive 3 means you'll never have a chance to employ it - the first lockdown will be remarkably easy<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Assuming umbra doesn't do its job and the alien team doesn't work as a team...yes, sieging will be remarkably easy. I personally as an alien player or a marine player wouldn't weep at the loss of spore at hive one. Though it's just my opinion, I think it's too much too early for aliens, they have a bit of everything right from the get go...and people wonder why marines have it tough?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Second, it means he'll have to go round those corners to get at marines. He'd be useless at a siegebase, because getting in sight to fire at marine means standing infront of turrets for more time than a popup spore attack.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He wouldn't be useless, as long as his team are there. It should be a team effort to take out something as massive as a siege base, not a one man show. He shouldn't be spiking and attacking the marines, and with my proposal he wouldn't be in the open any more than with spore, as he'd be umbraing up the area in the same manner as spore...it just means other people would need to do the killing that should be fairly easy to do with teamwork.
Without spore or umbra right now, a group of three of four skulks can usually (if they're good) take out a siege base...so it's not like removing spore would allow siege bases, it just means that one man can't rule the roost.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Even if we take into account Scream or Umbra, at hive one it'll mean Mov chambers as a necessity to get any use out of Umbra if you're taking a siege base - locking the kharaa into a set pattern. Currently, the kharaa strats are very flexible.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think anyone can say such a thing... Lerks right now either spore to help or don't...if they don't skulk rushes happen, if they do, then skulk rushes may still happen. This doesn't change with Umbra, it just means that a lerk can't do it on his own. I don't think anyone can foretell such thigs as locking kharaa into a set pattern.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Its a necessary evil, and balanced classwise with the fact the late game HA marines can laugh in the face of lerks, while every other class can do at least some damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I on the other hand see it as stupid. An overly effective ability at hive one that hopes to kill the marines game so they don't get to expand to get HA, or else they are useless when the HA's do come (assuming the HA's are dominating through the hives). It seems a lot more sensible to me to move the ability so that it isn't so powerful at the early game, and utterly 100% useless at the marine end game (aliens losing), to a place where it makes the lerk equally effective in its abilities...or at least equally able to be useful, no matter where abouts in the game it is.
Hive three is where abilities deserve to be if they have the possibility of not being very helpful at some point, hive one and basic ability are where things need to be if they're always essential. Umbra, imo, is more instantly and constantly essential than spore.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"unfortunately (and no offence here) you have no authority to make that claim, as you don't know how the lerk would work with the new (and tbh, radically changed) makeup of lerk abilities."
Likewise. You see a positive outcome, I see a negative. Hopefully I've illustrated mine clearly.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The difference is I'm not proposing that I know either, all I'm saying is that it should be given a chance and be given the balancing touch. In such circumstances I can't see logically how the lerk or alien game will be nerfed as a result, yet at the same time the marine game will be aided on a small part...in theory.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If its any comfort, at the end of the day I'm as sick of selfish players as the next kharaa, I just the think the problem is with those players and their misuse of alien classes.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And I think that education is something that shouldn't be needed when a few alterations means that the lerk need not be educated at all. You're totally right that gorges need educating, nothing will stop this however...you can't change its abilities, the way it builds or whatever, you can't do this without seriously ruining the gorge game.
However, the lerk can be changed on paper (and thats all we have right now) to help the issues it has, without a need to educate the players.
I'd much rather take this easier (as a player) option, than have to help educate every player...a lot of which won't listen...in which case changing the lerk is an even better option as it stops THOSE players in their tracks anyway! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Confuses me. Spore at first hive, primal at second, spore at third? Assuming spikes at first hive, the lerk is reliant on teamwork (spikes are good but vent sniping is a lot harder than dropping area effect clouds from a vent) - teamwork is good but the gorge is cheaper and can spam up DC/OC to help himself if need be. For the lerk's price, I expect him to be good earlygame, and spikes would be a liability with his hitpoints (bunnyflapping all round trying to hit someone is not nice).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What a time to have a moment of stupidity, I meant Umbra first, as I've been arguing for <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Personally I'd like the lerk to be useless enough for the first few minutes of the game that that 25 res is spent on putting a res tower up before he saves for lerk...personally.
Anyway, replace the first spore, with umbra, and you have the example in its correct way <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"Scenario 2"
Would be the most common, since without sporing lerks to slow marine expansion you could almost guarantee a one hive lock. No spores, period. Lockdown very hard to break, even with primal scream, 3 DCs and regen (or 3MC and adren). And would require virtually the whole team (6-8?) to rush the siege to get it down remotely fast enough. While this is teamwork, its teamwork only by breaking everyone's legs and forcing them to rely on each other.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can't agree, your analysis is too final for me, and I can't see the loss of spores as so detrimental to the early game for aliens. If it IS such a loss, however, I think that says a lot about spore and how stupidly overpowered it is.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And even with Scream and Umbra, I've yet to see a bunch of skulks take an HA train.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've yet to have seen a lerk ever help against a HA train. maybe these changes would.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->By sacrificing its earlygame strength, scenario 2 has been forced on the alien team. The lerk player may in fact wonder why he went lerk at all, since the res for a weak sniper was probably better spent on a fade who can at least kill in 2 hits.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Precisely. Although I don't agree that scenario 2 is a dead cert (even though it's almost a dead cert for a one hive lock down in 2.0 ANYWAY). As I've said, if such things help more people use the fade or learn to use the fade...another plus for me.
There's certainly an element of just difference of opinion here...while you seem ok with the fact the lerk is powerful at the early game and much less useful in the late, I think it's a flaw for the lerk to be that way. I think that pretty much sums up what we're countering and re-countering with <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
-Lee
so sad...
Chase him away, ask for a 10 res shottie, wait around a corner/under a vent for the lerk to come back, bye bye 30 res for the alien team. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bwahahahaha
*points at the 100th customer of the "did not read a single bit of this thread" award*
-Lee
this is what i mean, the typical NS player as a lerk, the devs say there for support only, well i dont see how spores and spikes support the alien team at hive 1 <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Um, easy, the spores can lock marines down in a location, or weaken them for a more concentrated attack by the rest of the aliens.
Lerks are a support class. Please accept that a support class can be extremely deadly in combat.
Frahg
Lerks are a support class. Please accept that a support class can be extremely deadly in combat.
Frahg <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
or in the lerks case not at all deadly when it needs to be supporting the most....yet overly deadly when it doesn't need to support so much. The whole lerk game is revolving around killing marines before they start, and as many games played on 2.0 show, not so sure about 2.01, lerks do kill the marine game in the first few minutes, the other 15 minutes are a formality.
Not that that is the point for some of us, some of us would merely like the lerk to actually umbra when it's able to, rather than fly off on its own to spore some more.
The only thing it supports is its own res income and the bring about of a boring game.
-Lee
they support the alien *game* at hive 1, they don't support the alien *team*
-Lee
they support the alien *game* at hive 1, they don't support the alien *team*
-Lee <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is there something wrong with supporting the goals of a team? Not all support units have to be medics. Just because the lerk doesn't give back to the team the way a gorge does doesn't mean he's not a support class. His job is to do supportive things like weaken strong encampments (by long range sniping of turrets and sporing) and kill at a distance. The lerk is a support unit the way artillery or a sniper are support units.
There's nothing wrong with that and it's a perfectly acceptable use of the term "support unit." The lerk doesn't have to be nerfed into a flying gorge just to be a support unit.
--Frahg