Well, I don't think I have anything else to say on the matter now <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
"Not at all...most double res take overs are done before lerks are available at all...double res take overs are usually relocates and any semi-decent alien team will clear them out with skulks alone."
Again, with decent players vs decent players, a pure skulk defence will get annihilated. And to devote ALL skulks to stopping the relocate means no alien RT capping - which throws the entire game balance because aliens are seemingly meant to expand FAST and EARLY.
"in the example above it takes a dumb marine to get itself into trouble and killed. In the lerks spore case, it takes any marine, regardless of skill, to get effected in some degree."
Well IMHO its always been the marine teams own dumb fault if they end up on the business end of lerks. Its a rather brutal method of informing marines that rushing to obvious areas is NOT what they're meant to do, but sometimes you need to be harsh to instil common sense into people.
"This isn't how it works, because the lerk is the only unit in the game that gets more effective the bigger the group it faces."
Its also the only unit that gets increasingly ineffective as time goes on. Secondly, the fact its good at killing groups should be a clear indication to marine commanders that you don't rush a lerk, and that additionally you don't put yourself in a position to BE lerked.
Why is it not an offensive unit at endgame? Because it is so offensive earlygame. Thats a gaming balance. Same way in some games there are tanks that are excellent against infantry and hopeless against other tanks.
"A lerk is the master of stopping expansion...and this is in my eyes just plain wrong."
Though its the role the lerk is intended to fill. I'd wager if you asked one of the designers they'd probably label its early game as area denial and late game support. Like artillery.
"How is taking out the aliens spores at hive 1 simplifying the game?"
"For marines expansion gets simpler, yes,"
Question, and answer. Marine expansion is easier to pull off, meaning that marines get to their endgame tech a lot faster, meaning the game balance is certainly not what it currently is. Lets not forget that the great strength of marines is their tech ability, and that their tech abilities are BALANCED by their inferior res capping ability.
"I don't see why newbies should be restricted to a class that is simple for them"
Its not restrictive. In any game, there's an entry level character class. In AvP2 its probably the standard marine. From there you could go to Heavy Weapons, or Scout. From there you could move to Alien, or Predator, and their subclasses. The marine team needs no entry level class - everyone's used to playing as a gun toting biped. Kharaa begin with skulks that are fairly easy but certainly not comparable to marines. The lerk has several ranged abilities and is fairly mobile - in terms of learning the ropes its superlative. Learn to use spore/spikes, watch the other aliens. Perhaps learn a bit of Scream teamwork. From there you can refine lerk, or experiment with other classes.
Easy, and gradual. Not "well newbie, you're in the real world now. Here's five classes, two support, two tricky ones, and one very big and slow one thats easy enough to use". Support classes are largely boring to the newbie, and not entry level. Fades are not entry level, skulks are barely entry level. Onos takes a while to hoard for and is easier to use assuming you follow the new player credo of eat and camp. ...with little oppertuinity unless they wish to take it to actually learn the game...just so experianced playes get the pick of the other classes? If anything the changes would mean newbie players are forced to learn the game.
"Personally, I think people should be more willing to pass on wisdom and lose some games, if it means the community size and skill is increased..."
Unless you're marine, because the wisdom of "don't rush obvious spots" is rarely accepted. Second, I find it easier to pass on wisdom to a new lerk player (use this weapon when you see/hear us) than to explain to an Onos hoarder precisely why hoarding damages the team.
"I certainly cannot agree to any degree with your resolution to keep the newbies content with their little overpowered class so long as it doesn't cost the game for the experianced guys."
Well actually the point I was making is that the new players can get to grips with the game without affecting the game for other players. Thusly new players are seamlessly integrated into the game..... instead of giving them purposefully harder classes to use and just telling them "get over it, learn and adapt, run your own server and practice".
Multiplayer games that involve crippling your play just to help the new players are flawed. We were all new once - would people find it easier to learn Lerk or Fade? NS is exceptional (imho) in that new players can jump right in with the oldies and noone is treading on anyone else's toes.
"You don't HAVE to do anything to "wipe the bottoms of people", you can do whatever you like to have fun in the game, meanwhile other people that are a little different to you will go lerk or learn lerk for the teams benefit."
Actually I spend most of my games as gorge, and consider going Fade to be my little treat. I'm very much a teamplayer, as I have reiterated in my posts. I know other permagorges that look forward to their skulkbomb fun at endgame. I don't think any teamplayer wants to spend his game covering for the ENTIRE team's slackness. Secondly, people already CAN go lerk and learn lerk for teamplay, and whats more they can actually enjoy doing it.
"If there is one alien class where we can "relegate" new players and not bother with them...that needs to be changed anyway."
Relegate? I think you should consider the role of entry level classes.
"if you and your other experianced players don't want to go gorge and lerk, don't go gorge and lerk. In the short time this might mean losses for aliens, in the long term it'll mean everyone knows how to play better and the game will benefit for it."
Whatever. Read the above, and read the other posts.
"A lerk with idiot tendancies goes without being noticed by the alien team for ages, and even then...what are you going to say...excuse me mr lerk, can you come give us some damn support?"
Quite funny, its the direct parallel of my post on idiot gorges. Recall that lerks can be seen on the minimap - chambers cant, unless you've SEEN them. And it's rather easy to tell a lerk "go here and use spore" as opposed to "go here, build an OC here, and one here, and one on top.. oh, ok, I'll show you how to build on top.... no, not in the doorway....ok you see the problem with that sensory is that its right in the middle of the corridor.... no I'm just trying to help you.... look we can't get past that wall...."
I don't think I need to go on.
"I feel you've got a kind of negative outlook on the players of the game, because I can't see this lack of wish to help and support myself. If anything, taking another attacking class and making it more support will help this mentality anyway in the long term."
I've a negative outlook on the bulk of players who think that that magic gorge fairy will build everything for them. Second, I don't see how putting a perfectly capable offensive class in the same role will somehow encourage them to go support. On the contrary, its one more job for the gorge teamplayer to take care of. If 4 out of 5 aliens were non-offensive support classes, where do you think the majority of players would be? Teamplayers would be struggling to cover 4 roles, while the glory boys would be saving for the attack class.
And again, that cripples the game balance and sends it rocketing firmly into marine dominance.
"One alien stopping it? Sorry I can't see the balance in the game."
The lerk stops you building. If you are sieging where they can find it, then it is the comms fault for such a foolish tactic. If you intend to win any battle, the trick is not to make your attack blatantly obvious unless you intend to feint. Parking a siege outside a hive is good if you intend to rush the other entrance.. but its moronic if you actually intend to hold it for any length of time. The lerk finds it hard to harm structures, so the marines can recycle with minimum loss. You take the lick and find somewhere thats tactically viable.
Consider the siege - it stops chambers being built, and is only "obviously overpowered" if you're uncoordinated enough to let it get built near your hive or decide to sit beside a chamber.
"Firstly we're talking public games, so that should explain for one why the lerk needs to be changed to help marines in these cases."
Yet you say its role will be filled by clan standard skulk players. So instantly we can see a split. In pub games, the experienced player goes comm and thus knows about lerks. If its a new player, he'll ideally learn quickly that rushing a skulk is like building an OC beside a Siege turret.
"You can go on as much as you like about smart comms and **** like that but it's all bollocks, at the end of the day...if a marine team wishes to use the siege tactic, they need to get bloody close to a hive to do it...and that close means that it's either patrolled or is heard from inside the hive."
No, sadly thats what marine comms think tho. You can only siege a hive doorstep if you're at a huge strategic and resource advantage. Sieges are designed for defense, for keeping aliens out of an area. You put your marine bases at choke points and bleed the kharaa dry of res.
"yet at the same time you talk about how the marines need to pull off these complicated and res costly strategies on public servers?"
Complicated? Res costly? Its just moving the doorstep siege to positions of actual relevance.
"changing lerks gives the marines a little more freedom, then where is the problem in this?"
Because rather than marine players actually trying a tactic that works, they insist on trying things that dont work and then complaining about them. Case in point, the Onos. No, its too overpowered! Aaah, save us from the alien classes who are filling the role they were designed for!
TBH its like running into a brick wall. You can jump into it, sidestep, spin, shouldercharge, crawl, and you'll get hurt each time. You'll also not pass the wall. Now, you can either go around it, or claim it's overpowered and should be removed. Going around requires that understanding that you're approaching the subject the wrong way, and learning how to circumvent it. Removing the wall makes it easier to pass, but at the same time removes the whole "getting past the wall" dynamic.
"Marines in 2.01d have got some nessacery changes to get boosts to allow expansion and collection of res, a couple of changes to things like lerks that so predominantly hamper marines can only end up helping to balance the game."
Tweaks, like putting grips on the wall to allow easier climbing. The changes are made to help marines get a better idea of what they're meant to be doing... although some will still charge at the wall, ending up with concussion and claiming its still overpowered.
"But from yuor own writing, without these defenses lerks can run amock and help end the game before HA is viable or possible! t's very much catch 22 for the marines."
Not really. Build in smart places, actively attack the enemy - does a lot more than futilely trying to siege a hive or sitting in base hoarding the res for tech.
"And that will always happen, you either live with it and do it, or tell them you can't and get them to do it."
Lerk. It will always be for area denial. Etc.
"If they won't do it the aliens will be disadvantaged and those players need to learn how to play the game, if they do do it then the teamis hunky-dory thanks very much."
Lerks. Learn how to deal with them, if they do then the team is hunky dory. Mm.
"Maybe you need to get off of your server to ones where they play NS, not "everyone go onos and fade"
Real nice. I have only listed occassions where these events have occurred, and doubtless there would be an increase if the lerk was moved firmly to support.
"Web is useless against HA, the welders rip through the webs as if they weren't there."
You can adren web and if nothing else it buys some respite from the guns.
"Charge does no/little damage to people right now, especially HA marines"
Annihilates buildings, bases, etc.
"Xeno does damage but it is easily repaired and there's a while before that skulk can come back and xenocide."
Knocks people around the room, destroying cohesive defence, and with celerity you can spam xeno rushes with impunity. TBH I see xeno end more stalemates than any other class/ability
Though to continue the "third hive moves blow" train of thought, Screaming is hopeless against HA if you wish to be technical. Xeno, Web, and Charge all require an element of teamwork, and on their own will not be as useful. Ditto Scream.
IMHO I still see third hive moves as effective.
"I see most lerks use spore at end games anyway...so why not move spores there, it's not like they'll change anything in alien end games."
Certainly if marines are all LA, and dug inside a tfarm base. By necessity the Lerk has to spore the numbers down, prevent a counterrush. It can Umbra, but be grenaded, and it can scream but generally that'll have no significant effect with redeem Onos (sadly still the popular evolve against tfarms, as opposed to regen and teamwork.... or cara and a nearby DC nest).
Secondly spores are much more valuable than scream if you expect a Distress Beacon, and distress beacons go off an awful lot these days.
"Nah, I'm sorry, that isn't balance...not even in a freaky upside down way you're explaining it."
Well its sort of like explaining gravity as part of superstring theory, but you really have to be there, tbh.
"Then don't do it, let someone else do it."
No, sadly my conscience makes me want to be a teamplayer. I am happy to follow it <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
"are you afraid of taking steps that mean less influence of one player and more need for teamwork?"
Real mature. What you suggest is equivalent to removing sieges and instead suggesting that marines use "normal" turrets as it "promotes strategic placement".
"Ugh, its a very valid tactic for christ sake"
Actually its a valid but mentally deficit tactic. The aliens KNOW its there, they WILL take it down. Try popping one up at a siege point and cutting off mobility. Aliens generally won't spot it unless its too late, because they're busy capping res. Second, its away from a hive, so no instant counterrush. Neither will MCs work. Plus points? You seal off half the map with only one base, so not only is it cheaper, it means you can spend maybe double the amount you would on ONE base, because this little baby covers the 5 minibases you were trying to build.
"Why should marines be penalised for wanting some strategic diversity in their game?"
Well, there's strategic diversity, and there's crippling the gameplay.
"If a marine or 4 are building a siege base it will always be in a place of danger."
Not really.
"have you played 1.04? Because from 1.04 a lot of tactics seem to have been lost or severely nerfed."
No, and why would I want to? Even if I had, its got nothing to do with the later versions. If you keep playing the later versions with the same old strats, then you're going to spend a lot of time running into that brick wall and claiming its overpowered.
These tactics need to be made viable again so that marines have some diversity. If this means that one poor lerk player has to change the way it plays, so be it. I don't think that the lerks properties needs defending in such ways as "well marines shouldn't be doing this perfectly viable tactic" or "marines shouldn't be going for these perfectly needed places" or "marines should not run out of their base to go and do the task assigned to it, if the lerk has spored everywhere!"
"because you can really avoid Glers? If the guy is spamming one entrance to yuor hive, it's not hard at all to take a GLer down, I've done it enough times. if all entrances are covered by GLers, it's almost impossible to get out of your hive at all..."
And thus good job marines for getting two GL JPs close to our woefully undefended hive. No nerf required - just better alien tactics.
"I also find it strange that you compare sporing to GL spamming, somethign widely seen as lame and argued against many a time to be nerfed..."
Nope, GL spamming is camping at the armory exploiting the (now gone) reload cycle. Sitting with a JP in a vent miles from marine base isn't GL spam. Your comparison is flawed.
"The only useful siege positions ARE risky and somewhat silly."
Depending on your use. Closing off half the map with a siege defended tfarm with a pg and some men minimises risk and maximises gain.
"This should be shown properly by showing that only adequete team work from an alien team can break it down...not one 30 res alien."
The lerk only stops marines welding it back up, they're not base smashers.
"The siege rush, the phase rush...they are old and still perfectly viable strategies...they shouldnt' be nerfed to some degree because of some peoples love for lerks spore."
The heavy horse of medieval times don't compare to modern heavy machine guns and artillery. Sure, heavy horse WERE viable, but no longer. IMHO its the same in NS. The siege rush, start rush, tech rush, etc, are all viable, but some just don't translate to NS.
IMHO we change our tactics to fit the game, not change the game to fit our tactics.
"Onos is easy to use? Right..."
Compared to the fade and skulk? Certainly.
"play any NS game where lerks don't happen (I've played a few) and they're far more enjoyable games in 2.0"
You know I could play games where NS doesnt happen at all, and find them more enjoyable. More on topic, I've played games with lerks and they've been fun because the comm hasn't sent us charging repeatedly into a spore cloud. Only one game involving lerks has been a disappointment, and that was when 4 lerks rushed our totally defenceless base.
Now, was that an obvious proof of overpowering lerks.......... or the result of an insane comm and his teamcrippling strat?
"It would also mean that new players need to learn how to use the classes."
Which they do already, just your suggestion warps the learning curve. And the alien team needs an antiexpansion weapon in the same manner that the siege cripples chamber expansion. The aliens get theirs earlier as part of the apparent design philosophy favouring early alien expansion.
"(with the basic tactics that have to be carried through versions)"
They certainly don't have to. Let go of the past.
"Or perhaps that they need to learn the game or their experiances in NS will be greatly varied depending on if those people are present to wipe their noses?"
Well lets see.... bad player joins NS, finds it fun as a lerk... learns teamwork about Scream and Umbra, stays for a while, tries other classes.
OR
Bad player joins NS.... all the classes are hard except for this big rhino thing, but it takes a lot of res.... so I'll hoard all my res. Damn this game is dull, I'm going off to play something else.
New/selfish players can fit into the lerk role without affecting gameplay. Without the lerk role, they affect gameplay by trying to find their niche amongst the other, more skilled classes.
"Or if you don't look so negatively on the game, more people will learn how to be team players bcause their game experiance will be greatly effected if they don't, and people will get a better standard of play."
If we keep nerfing it make it easier for marines to use obsolete strats, then eventually it boils down to a very boring game where marines do anything and perhaps 50% of the time it works. It becomes a coin toss, because everything is beaten down to a "perfect balance".... a perfect balance of course relying on nothing but CHANCE.
"People do learn to change..."
But not their outdated strategies? Nor how to cope with a lerk?
"Just because something gets nerfed doesn't mean it's going to just change things for the worse, it means people will adapt."
If you nerf in the pursuit of perfect balance, then yes it DOES change for the worse. And experienced players end up with the problem of overly simplified gameplay.
QUOTE It'll kill the influx of new players and means NS is reduced to a bunch of gamers who've been playing it for years, with little to no influx of new players because its "too hard".
"I fail to see how it will become "too hard", all it'll do is become a little bit more like 1.04 where there was a little more reliance between the alien team than there is currently. There wasn't a problem then, why should there be a problem now? If the game is drawing new players because of things like the lerk and its overpowered abilities, then thats a bad thing."
If the game moves to total reliance on teamplay for all sides, then yes it will be too hard. The game should allow for inexperienced players (currently it does). Secondly, if the balance is restricted to "Marines have LA LMG, Aliens have Skulks with LMG damage parasite", that is where each side has identical strengths only in reskins or new models, then you've bled out everything that makes NS what it is.
Balance is not always about a flat 50 50. Strong earlygame, weak endgame. Thats balance. Strong infantry, weak tanks. Thats balance.
"Hey team, we're surrounded by spores, and there's absolutely no chance of the lerk letting up...and we can't kill him because he's too fast for us...so we'll just wait in this corner for 15 minutes until he goes onos!"
Again we're back to charging the brick wall.
"What I'm doing is taking out spore, changing the other abilities to better fit the way aliens will be aligned in the game (umbra to help against small bases, small marine excursions at hive 1, umbra and primal scream to help take out set bases at hive 2, and spore + the rest in the end game). Also I add the fact that teamwork is present on servers, they don't seem to be on yours however."
Unfortunately your replacement is nowhere near as effective as the area denial that the lerk is designed for. So you are nerfing it - nerfing it purely because its doing its job.
Second, teamwork is present on the servers - just people don't go gorge. They can be exceptional fades, or lerks, but the trick is getting them to gorge up a chamber. And making the lerk support is only going to dump another role on the teamplayers who WILL go gorge.
"right now the lerk gets used for one thing and one thing alone, sporing marines."
Area denial, its key role. Kind of like saying the skulk gets used for biting marines, imho. Both are doing the job they're designed for.
"helping onos/fade as it should be doing now"
IS that what it should be doing now?
"I hate to sound like the "omg learn to aim" guys, but for god sake, if you can't find a team on your servers to restrict marines using skulks then you really need to go and find another server."
You have become that which you despise. Thus plays out the tragedy of Man.
Second - nothing, absolutely nothing in NS can do what a lerk does with the same effect. Rushing with skulks? Some skulks will die. You can't skulkbite a marine hiding around a corner. But lerks can. And don't get killed. Thats their job, thats what no other class can replace.
"Lerks can't build stuff, but they can protect aliens like no other alien can...people need to start realising this use."
Yes and they learn by playing the game and learning the fine points - not thrown in at the deep end where basic survival/ambush/wallcrawling has to be learned.
"And so the aliens will lose, and people will have to learn to change or keep losing. In the long term it'll help. If you're patient enough to see through to the long term?"
Marines are coping with lerks..... in the long term. Parallel?
"the lerk doesn't need to see the mid-end marine game thanks to its overpowered nature."
The fraghunting lerk player may not have to, true, but with his res he can go onos. And still contribute to the team.
"is it balanced that a lerk can be so powerful in the early game that it plays a large part in ensuring it never sees a marine end game? Is that fair and balanced?"
Totally. You need to stop seeing balance as a flat 50 50. If I'm fully armoured in, say, Unreal Tournament, and I crouchwalk into an open area and die to a headshot... is that unfair, or my own fault? Wouldn't you say I should have known better than to slowly crawl through open terrain?
The initial early offensive strength is counterbalanced by its late game offensive weakness. That is not 50 50 everything is equal balanced, but its balanced in terms of power. Power that is only excessive if you put yourself in a position to be affected - either by leaving an open base or by having your doorstep siege spotted.
"You say that siege bases shouldn't be able to go up in the only place they work..."
No, I say they're not MEANT to go up in the only place YOU think they work.
"you also say that the HA train tactic isn't a necessity? It's the only tactic currently available that works against anything other than an awful alien side!"
Its not a necessity. The shotty rush can win games and involves virtually no teching up. And is effective against even experienced alien teams if they're caught flat footed.
"Necrosis: Lerks are the newbie players class, making them harder to use will mean experianced players have to do all the support"
Wrong. Or at least worded in a derogatory manner. The lerk is the entry level, easy to use class - removing the weapon which makes them entry level will remove their appeal, forcing new players to have a steeper learning curve, possibly leaving the game entirely. And only because they found the learning curve too hard.
Picture walking into NS without the lerk class. Where do you go to from skulk? And the class you choose, how long to master? Most of us have went from skulk - lerk - whatever. Learning teamplay and tactics. Those of us like myself who've played AvP2 will move into Fade with relative ease, and cope with skulk wallwalking and ambushes.
However, imagine the standard FPS player. He needs a gun, has been living in largely 2 dimensional planes. He'll pick up the lerk very easily.
"Necrosis: Lerks are the only real counter to siege rushes, and to stopping expansion...you expect 2-3 skulks to take out 8 marines making a siege base?"
No, lerks are the most effective counter to marine expansion. Period. 3 skulks? 2 more players than one lerk. With an inferior ranged attack. So with respect skulks will NEVER match the lerk. Two packs of three skulks cover two points on the map, and generally suffer casualties. Two lerks can cover two points on the map, suffer no casualties, and allow the other 4 to gorge up rts and chambers. Yes, I think we can see the difference.
Secondly, 2-3 skulks destroy/stall a siege base - a lerk can only stop it being built. Big difference, and you've misinterpreted my explanations.
"Also, just because lerks may lose the ability to stop expansion, that doesn't mean the old fashioned and reliable way of skulks won't do the job just as well."
Actually it does, and very much so. Read above.
"Necrosis: Changing the abilities makes the lerk useless."
No, changing the abilities will make the lerk useless at the role of solo area denial. IMHO area denial is what it does, and when thats over with it moves to a supportive role. Hell, area denial IS a support role, it cuts off reinforcement.
"and will be more balanced."
RE: nerfed to a role marines can cope with in their limited way, and remove its role as THE area denial class for aliens.
"I can't see how anything can be balanced if its over powered starts contribute so widely to never seeing the marine end games."
A man has a six shot magnum, you have a laser cannon that takes 30 seconds to charge. If you stand in front of the man, he will shoot you and you will die. If you dodge intelligently, he will miss, and then you can kill him. In the startgame the odds are in his favour in terms of power, but at endgame he's stuffed, as we say.
"which in my opinion is enough of an incentive to change things, because if players are playing in this way then they need to learn and change so that the standard of play is increased in NS."
Its unfair to the new players who are forced to adapt to a hellishly steep learning curve (as opposed to the easier lerk route) and unfair on experienced players who have to change their entire game to accomdate a new player.
Note I don't say bad player, but new player - because bad players will not be helped by any nerf.... they'll keep causing problems, and in this case moreso.
"Edit: Also, when I posted the above post, Necrosis, I was in a rush to meet some friends...so some of my points may have come accross as a little more cutting or perhaps cynical than they were written as. Please take no offence"
Implying I don't want to lose, calling me elitist, and above all saying I don't gorge? Wow, real mature. IMHO perhaps you could have saved the text halfway and just posted later, when you'd spare time. Because to be quite honest I find it in very bad taste that after we come to an agreement about namecalling, I'm suddenly having the elitist a-hole card played at me.
You can understand my annoyance. Hopefully my response has been civil, despite taking a considerably longer amount of time to construct (as I like to post in a pleasant constructive demeanour).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->HOLY CRAP?! Who is going to read all of that........ I certainly didnt, and this topic should be dead.... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well silly people who find this interesting and niaccurshi will <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> (I don't say niaccurshi isn't as silly as us, or that he's not interested, but he will certainly read it in order to get a suitable -read "probably long"- answer)
Besides the one who are posting their thoughts about the subject at hands, I'm afraid I have to say that the other ones who are keeping this topic alive are... people like you who post "It should be dead by now!" here <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->**** me! necrosis I will hunt you down and break your keyboards! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This won't work, keyboards can be replaced as often as needed <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> Instead have him banned from the forums for an Intemporal amount of time for Long, Consistant, Topic-related, Civil and structured posts issues <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
BTW, I've been able to say in a long strait sentance something like 23 "OMG!" while scrolling down the answer of Necrosis at a HMG rate <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Yes I have silly entertainments <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> nerfing it purely because its doing its job.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Its for support, not for rushing into the marine base at the start of the game and sporing them to death or forcing them to relocate.
Uhh....spores are not only a softener,but also an area-of-denial weapon,and it works really well at that,same with the Grenade Launcher,and medpacks are 2 res,which is really close to nothing if you've been capping RTs throughout the game....
Suppose to say....to end the dispute with a lerk you have to bring him to your terms....
One way would be to feign the fact that you have a lot of health,and we know once aliens hear the words 'Comm I need a medpack!' they will feel the urge to kill the marine ASAP
That is one mistake a lot of alien players do,including me (yes I admit it)
The others....I don't know,you have to find it yourself,after all noone has the REAL answer to killing lerks quickly and efficiently without saying the word teamwork , which is indeed a very powerful exploit on pubs that can tear aliens apart :\
awww... heck... I've managed to avoid signing up through fade topics, aliens are too hard/ marines are too rock threads and now I finally go and see this one lol <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I think nia's one of the most open-minded and neutral guys involved in this arguement and I find myself sitting here bobbing my head like some kinda nodding dog when reading through his points. In the end the lerk is supposedly an aggressive support cast but it's support abilities don't even really kick in until the 2nd hive. The problem isn't really much about anything as silly as "OMG LERKS OWNZORZ M3!!! NERF! NERF!!!" as that it's not even really set up to act out it's assigned role until the aliens are capping another hive or two o.O
I can see the potential 'support' usage of the spore clouds as a sort of temporary defence screen, panic inducer, area clearance and opening barrage for a charge but it's a little too open to "I AM L337!!! M3 KILLz R1N3Z!!! WOOT!" attitudes in it's current form, making it an attractive early choice for fragmonkeys while they wait for mr rhino ^^; As much as I love the idea of people reforming and getting out of the lonewolf ideal within NS, it's just not a realistic expectation; there's always going to be people coming and going from the NS scene like any other game and so you'll always get the griefers, the fragfanatics and all the other negative and positive types... they're not going anywhere unless the game starts forcing them to do otherwise <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
while the flipping about of the skills sounds like the best idea suggested (1 hive - spike & umber, 2 - primal, 3 - spore) one thing I haven't seen come up really if that's not viable is a small tweak to it. For example, what if the gas was treated as drowning damage? While in the noxious clouds your hp would start dropping drastically like it does now causing most less prepared people to panic, weakening their health to make any attacks easier and generally detering people from entering the gassed area if possible. The difference would come the minute the cloud dissapates or the marine escapes its choking confines; they would get back the health knocked out by the drowning damage gradually just like when when you break the surface after drowning. This way it would still serve it's potential support role for harassing, detering and weakening while negating the current trend to basically use it as a potential 'uber kill' or team destroyer =3
how does that sound? It's not really a nerf, it doesn't upset the current weapon order and it might encourage it to be used for what it was probably added for in the first place <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
be gentle... I know it's not a great idea to jump into a big debate when you first hit a forum but hey, this <b>is</b> my first post ^~
... and a great first post in my opinion <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Welcome on board <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I don't have alot of time -still worling on my first model- but I had to say that I do really like the idea of "drawning damage" for the spore cloud <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I'll add more thoughts about it in due time, but chances are people will have already added theirs when I'll get back, so you will have plenty to discuss <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Hahaha, oh man... love the "ho. lee. crap." though <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Bit nackered after visiting a mate in hosptial and the car breaking down on the way back...so I guess I'll reply to some of these things a bit later.
Except for...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->HOLY CRAP?! Who is going to read all of that........ I certainly didnt, and this topic should be dead.... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's amazing what an actual real discussion with less than a percentage of it being flaming can cause ?_?
If its any consolation it looked a lot smaller in the tiny posting window.
You know perhaps I should pimp myself out to Flayra as official person what responds to balance posts. Well, Niac or I. One of our posts would have all but the most determined running off and deleting their account.
well im pretty sure he has no problem writing 16 page essays in school <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
but no offense psyco counting all of those words aint to healthy either <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
i think just that post should be stickied becuase it must of took u at least 2 hours to type that necrosis i give u the reward for most into NS <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Necrosis+Sep 8 2003, 06:55 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Sep 8 2003, 06:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Implying I don't want to lose, calling me elitist, and above all saying I don't gorge? Wow, real mature. IMHO perhaps you could have saved the text halfway and just posted later, when you'd spare time. Because to be quite honest I find it in very bad taste that after we come to an agreement about namecalling, I'm suddenly having the elitist a-hole card played at me. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah I should have, hopefuly you'll have taken my appology, and I'll explain my elitism claims a little better later hopefully. However, I didn't say you don't gorge, I said for the amount you complained about people getting at you about your requirements as a gorge, you ought to just give it up. With that out of the way...
I'm going to do something radical now...I'm going to try and adapt my technique of replying here to minimise the reply length (heh, as if) and just make it a bit easier to read.
<b>Start Game Tactics</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Again, with decent players vs decent players, a pure skulk defence will get annihilated. And to devote ALL skulks to stopping the relocate means no alien RT capping - which throws the entire game balance because aliens are seemingly meant to expand FAST and EARLY. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now about the above...Personally I don't agree on the whole concept you have runnign there. I will always say my team (as aliens) should be skulk rushing to the one or two of the main relocate points (double res or obvious hive etc.). Someone here posted a very detailed analysis that shows that one marine killed in Res for Kill terms is worth 5 aliens killed in the opposite way (I believe) at a 9 v 9 level.
Note I'm talking 9v9 a lot here, as the servers I play on are usually 9v9 unless reserved slots are filled etc.
Even if all the skulks get killed, on an equal skill basis, I find it is useful to do such an act. Firstly you'll usually knock out half the marine team, and secondly certain players will have gained very useful res. The marine build time is significantly shortened as a result, and capping key res around the aliens first hive isn't hard to achieve. All it does is delay the alien expansion by about 2 minutes tops, and in those two minutes the marines have done nothing but run for a relocate and lost time in building the relocate.
In total, in my experience, such rushes can throw marines off for long enough to gain adequate res for certain skulks, and allow one or two alien players to stick behind and cap a couple of really early res.
Now..
<b>Marine Tactics</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"But from your own writing, without these defences lerks can run amok and help end the game before HA is viable or possible! t's very much catch 22 for the marines."
Not really. Build in smart places, actively attack the enemy - does a lot more than futilely trying to siege a hive or sitting in base hoarding the res for tech.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The reason I don't agree with this sentiment is because sieging a hive, or hoarding res for tech (though obviously not without excessive work for securing res) should be viable tactics. The trouble that I see with your arguments on this matter is they seem to be trying to say that marines should be rushing and should be attacking? You don't think that siege tactics are meant to be viable, or small expansion and res hoarding?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Marines are coping with lerks..... in the long term. Parallel?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Um, right...personally I'm still seeing the same old problems with still no way to cope with them. The lerks aren't having such a free reign on marines, but they're still bugging them far too easily without team help.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No, and why would I want to? Even if I had, its got nothing to do with the later versions. If you keep playing the later versions with the same old strats, then you're going to spend a lot of time running into that brick wall and claiming its overpowered.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->IMHO we change our tactics to fit the game, not change the game to fit our tactics.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats not my point, I hate people that want to go back to 1.04. However I don't see why 2.0 marines should suffer losing strats and not gain any new ones. Currently marines rarely can pull off a siege based tactic thanks to the lerk...it's not to do with placement, it's simply to do with the lerk. The marines have gone from version to version from about 5 or 6 starts to 2, 3 if you count the two hive lock-down tactic that only works against really stupid alien teams.
Should marines only have two viable tactics? I digress though, as dealing with spores to help this tactic be able to happen still leaves the marines short of diversity in the tactics market, it would however help.
The tactics are there, they never disappeared. We're not talking about turning the game into 1.04 here, we're talking about maintaining diversity of marine tactics. Your argument to me doesn't make sense when you come to the point of not answering why you seem to think 2 marine tactics are viable? The adapted shotgun rush (before it used to happen, but without targetting RT's), and the HA train. Where are these other tactics bred out of 2.0? I'll answer you, they're not there, because no new tactics WERE bred out of 2.0....they were changed and adapted, but not added.
Do you play marines enough to see how boring the marine game gets with so little diversity? (honest question).
<b>Third Hive Abilities</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->IMHO I still see third hive moves as effective.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You can adren web and if nothing else it buys some respite from the guns.
"Charge does no/little damage to people right now, especially HA marines"
Annihilates buildings, bases, etc.
"Xeno does damage but it is easily repaired and there's a while before that skulk can come back and xenocide."
Knocks people around the room, destroying cohesive defence, and with celerity you can spam xeno rushes with impunity. TBH I see xeno end more stalemates than any other class/ability<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Any good HA team will weld at the front shoot at the back, it's not a problem. Your charge comment matters little as we're only talking about HA teams here, and likewise with Xeno, very few skulks get near to a HA pack before prematurely xenoing or being killed.
Against HA all the third hive abilities are pants, as I've said, and do little or nothing to help against HA, and as such most of the time it's a better idea to use the other hive abilities against this enemy.
I do wonder how screaming us so useless, especially on things such as redemption onos to take a weak option to highlight. The redemption onos will dissapear within a gore or two of a marine...scream will make that up to half a dozen gores...that's useless against HA? Against a good HA team it's still useful (though that redemption onos example goes out the window, he'd be dead)
<b>The siege issue</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Depending on your use. Closing off half the map with a siege defended tfarm with a pg and some men minimises risk and maximises gain.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The lerk only stops marines welding it back up, they're not base smashers.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This simply doesn't make sense to me. How does closing off one half of the map make you safe from sieging the hive right in front of you?
It doesn't, Siege tactics are risky and require good coherent teamwork. This teamwork should pay off, and should give the aliens trouble if set up right and set up well. It shouldn't work against them as it does when a lerk comes along and spores the team working team all together and kills them all after 10 seconds of building, leaving the outpost to be defended by the two marines that manage to phase in after spawning before the PG goes down. Of course welding anything takes considerably longer than the 11 seconds it takes to die. While a lerk may not destroy a base, it renders it a no-mans land for a while at worst, and just a marine no-go area at best.
I don't see how a viable tactic is allowed to be so devestated by one man, where skulks are allowed to actually hang back, even take their time getting to the base, because one alien acually devestates the area.
Unfortunately that to me isn't teamwork, thats one player doing a big job and the rest sort of cleaning up.
And I reitterate, Siege bases only work in close proximities to the hive location...it's not a case of where I think they should be going up, it's a case of the only place that they can go up and have the effect desired. If you want to show me a place I can siege feedwater from my base though in bast, well I'd like to hear it <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<b>Aliens for Newbies</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"Onos is easy to use? Right..."
Compared to the fade and skulk? Certainly.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Compared to the fade, yes. The Skulk is easier to use effectively than the onos without harming your team. New players going onos do two things, 1) munch a marine, 2) die. New players going onos waste 100 res an awful lot of the time. New players going skulk have less of a learning curve per res cost.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->the point I was making is that the new players can get to grips with the game without affecting the game for other players. Thusly new players are seamlessly integrated into the game..... instead of giving them purposefully harder classes to use and just telling them "get over it, learn and adapt, run your own server and practice".
Easy, and gradual. <snip> Support classes are largely boring to the newbie, and not entry level. Fades are not entry level, skulks are barely entry level. Onos takes a while to hoard for and is easier to use assuming you follow the new player credo of eat and camp.
Multiplayer games that involve crippling your play just to help the new players are flawed. We were all new once - would people find it easier to learn Lerk or Fade? NS is exceptional (imho) in that new players can jump right in with the oldies and noone is treading on anyone else's toes.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes there is an entry level "class", it's called marines. If you're new you go marines, you watch you learn how your enemies attack, you get into the game that way. Then you go and learn how to skulk (seeming that is the alien you'll be most needed to use), which isn't half as hard as you seem to be making out. The lerk is not entry level, and any player going to the lerk thinking "right, from here I can learn the game" is just kidding themselves and hurting their team.
NS has a learning curve, one that can be lessened if new players go marines first to watch as well as play, but a learning curve that is sharp to begin with none the less. Offering an easy out option is not the way to help, and the lerk should certainly not be the easy out option.
Support isn't hard to use and it isn't boring...but that depends on the player, and not all new players will be bored of support, or not want to learn it. My point made against you here is that you're arguing that new players actually not having an easy option out of playing a team game is *good* for that game.
New players can play alongside old ones very easily as skulks, marines of many kinds, and to a degree onos (though not quite as much as you claim). They don't need a lerk class that has this stupidly overpowered level 2 ability to be dumped in to. It's just like saying "ok, well you're new...and I want you to play...but you're going in this group where your meager and newbie skills will have their maximum effect...and if the game is lucky you'll learn to progress from that...but at least our game isn't ruined if you never learn." Which, to be honest, is exactly how your argument is coming off. Harsh as that sounds, it's the only way I can actually read it <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I've a negative outlook on the bulk of players who think that that magic gorge fairy will build everything for them. Second, I don't see how putting a perfectly capable offensive class in the same role will somehow encourage them to go support. On the contrary, its one more job for the gorge teamplayer to take care of. If 4 out of 5 aliens were non-offensive support classes, where do you think the majority of players would be? Teamplayers would be struggling to cover 4 roles, while the glory boys would be saving for the attack class.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No way! if anything taking the lerks offensive weaponry out of first hive will mean the kill hungry newbies go back to learning how to skulk <b>as they should be doing at that stage</b>. If they want to support they can learn the lerk or the gorge. I know thats how I played, I learnt how to skulk along side learning (and watching) gorge play. Changing the lerk won't add more to the gorges workload, it'll actually lessen it, as it'll mean that the offensive skulks don't need a gorge nearby, but a lerk. Defensive lerks will still need a gorge, but then thats the way it should be, right?
The game does allow for new players, just not intollerant ones to teamplay. I never touched Lerk until I was competant with the Skulk...why then is it so impossible for new players to try learning the base class of aliens, rather than a better one? I put to you that it isn't, lerks in 1.04 didn't have area denial and plenty of people learnt the game perfectly well as marines and skulks. The fact any joe bloggs can go and spore like an idiot is in 2.0 doesn't change the fact the skulks are as easy to learn as they ever were, if not easier! Answer me, why should people be learning how to lerk before they learn to skulk, isn't that just like learning to run before you can walk in game terms?
Some people won't do this, they'll always be newbies, but those people are kind of outside the scope of this discussion, as nothing will ever be done to help them. (but then you've said this too)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Secondly, if the balance is restricted to "Marines have LA LMG, Aliens have Skulks with LMG damage parasite", that is where each side has identical strengths only in reskins or new models, then you've bled out everything that makes NS what it is.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not saying make aliens equal to marines, nor have I implied it...all I've said is lift this curtain of dominance that a lerk can spell and allow the marines some freedom again. Games without lerks are ones where the games are harder to call...this should be the way of the game...it shouldn't be called in the first 5 minutes. The game will allow for inexperiance regardless of where spore is or if it even exists.
<b>Changing the abilities order for lerk</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you nerf in the pursuit of perfect balance, then yes it DOES change for the worse. And experienced players end up with the problem of overly simplified gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well I was just putting a case in point, and I still don't claim that the change is a nerf, it is just a change. What the lerk will lose in one place, it'll gain in another.
A nerf is something like making the skulk slower (in 2.0-2.01 terms with celerity), making the fade cost more, making the hive cost 40 res instead of 35.
Now, firstly have these simplified the game? They've made it easier for marines, yes...but one thing that ease has done as added some diversity and breathing room for marines to do a little more than they could in 2.0...it's not made their game simple. It certainly hasn't simplified the alien game!
Secondly, moving spores WOULD make the marine start game a little easier regardless of the number of lerks...thats for sure. However what it does do is mean that bases probably won't last long at hive 1 if they're already up...marines will have to shift their emphasis from working to build a base to working to keep it. Is this simpler? I don't think so, I think it's just shifting the load around personally.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If we keep nerfing it make it easier for marines to use obsolete strats, then eventually it boils down to a very boring game where marines do anything and perhaps 50% of the time it works. It becomes a coin toss, because everything is beaten down to a "perfect balance".... a perfect balance of course relying on nothing but CHANCE.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Unfortunately your replacement is nowhere near as effective as the area denial that the lerk is designed for. So you are nerfing it - nerfing it purely because its doing its job.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To be frank, this is rubbish. Adding more diversity to the marine game doesn't make it a game of chance. Taking out diversity does that. Having marine teams with one long game strat and one short game strat means that most games in 2.0 are decided by which side gets the better players. Having more strategies, even those "outdated" ones as you like to call them ( <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> ), doesn't make it a coin toss, what it means is the marines can adapt to the aliens plans as much as the aliens can currently adapt to the marines plan (singular).
Taking out lerk spore from hive one so that the marines have a little choice about what to do doesn't mean that the marines have a certain win, it means the aliens need to work a little more at taking marine res than just building their own with their little oc nests to boot. It doesn't mean that the aliens are being nerfed, it just means that something wrong with the game is being lost. You like the "area of denial" that spores give...I personally think the "area of denial" is one main reason why aliens have far too much of an edge in some games and little in another.
Whats amazing to me is that you berate me for trying to open the marines up with tactics that they should have available (despite the fact they were used to varying effect in 1.04), yet you defend so stoically the spores because that is the way the game is right now and that shouldn't change?
Even if moving the spore ability *were* a nerf, it wouldn't be because it's doing it's job, it'd be because it is doing it's job and more, and doing both far too efficiently to be balanced in game. You claim Area denial is it's key role, it's not. The lerks key role IS support. The little guerilla bit (probably still tacked on from 1.0+) is an aside, and lerks were never used until hive 2 in 1.04 (not if the aliens had sense anyway). Lerks were then used as support. Now, from what I read, lerks were being attacking far too much...so they were weakened, and made so that they couldn't be so offensive. Now I don't know what the devs word on it right now is...but thats what I read around before 2.0 came out...and so it strikes me as a bit odd that people like yourself are so vehemently arguing for the lerks offensive ability...when at EVERY point I've seen of the games life, the lerk has been primarily support...KEY ROLE SUPPORT...
I went lerk the other day, on eclipse, and I walked into their base in the closest part to their IP's...I spored and spiked only, and I'd built 3 DC's before hand outside. I didn't die for a good 10 minutes, and i racked up just short of 20 kills. The marines that ignored me walked out of their base with enough health lost to need 2 medpacks (this I heard a couple of times) or died to my spikes, the marines that kept rushing me lost their life to spikes and spores.
Now, when I can get that far into a base and cause a menace (there were turrets by the way, they did nothing enough to hamper my advance and retreat...so there goes that theory), how are maps like tanith so safe from lerks at the base? Thats right, they're not.
<b>Despite however much you want to believe it</b> the commander can build as safely as he likes, his marines will still be affected to the degree of at least a third to half of the map being restricted from them...by one lerk and his spores. this is supposedly balanced?
How do you counter this? I've seen marines ignore this and go the other way...but in 2.0 they are merely put on the back foot if they do so. They can take the lerk head on, lose a lot of res to the aliens and not gain any ground. Marines want to counter the lerk at base and manage to get a phase base outside...anywhere. In your opinion it would be some...area that manages to somehow (despite vents and such) cut off half the map from the aliens. a lerk turns up (a second one) and neutralises that area and stops the marines from doing anything from the moment they go through the phase gate.
Now if the lerk doesn't come, the marines get through...all that happens then is that place becomes and extension of the base, another place that can be cut off by a lerk...the problem continues.
If spores are a brick wall, then we're living in the 1980's and we can call this berlin, because frankly...there isn't any getting around the problem spores give in balance...just waiting it out until it crumbles. By then, of course, the game is already lost. But hey, at least we're not letting in any of those old strats, and at least the game is freakily balanced in a way we never see...where the over powering start game is so powerful it all but protects itself from being useless in the end game <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well its sort of like explaining gravity as part of superstring theory, but you really have to be there, tbh.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nah, it's more like going up to someone and saying "excuse me mate, I want to fight you, but you're not allowed to hit me for a whole minute, in which time I'm allowed to hit yuo at my leisure. After that minute though, I'll tie my hands behind my back" The point is that the guy that isn't allowed to hit in the first minute will be knocked out before the 1st minute is up in most circumstances...so what use is the stipulation that the other guy won't hit him at all after that minute?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"are you afraid of taking steps that mean less influence of one player and more need for teamwork?"
Real mature. What you suggest is equivalent to removing sieges and instead suggesting that marines use "normal" turrets as it "promotes strategic placement".<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No I'm not. One thing here that breaks your comparison is that siege needs teamwork to put up...so it's entirely different. If it took a team of skulks with a lerk to spore slightly effectively, then this thread wouldn't be going on like this either.
<b>General Balance</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Question, and answer. Marine expansion is easier to pull off, meaning that marines get to their endgame tech a lot faster, meaning the game balance is certainly not what it currently is. Lets not forget that the great strength of marines is their tech ability, and that their tech abilities are BALANCED by their inferior res capping ability.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marine expansion is HARDER to pull off than aliens actually. Marines need less res points, this is the balancing issue. They don't get as many res points, but they don't need as many as a result.
Marines res is much more vulnerable that alien res, as alien res can be suitably guarded from one marine or two simply by alert skulks (ie every public server) One or two skulks however will mean that a single marine res node without marines in the immediate vicinity will be destroyed almost certainly. At hive two you can kiss any non-turret defended res point goodbye too. The res needed to secure a single marine res point from one alien is far greater than aliens. But again, this is balanced by the fact marines need less res points.
The imbalance present in 2.0-2.01d comes into its own with the fact marines can't expand fast enough to get those key few res right now, as well as aliens getting res up and defended too fast...and lerks are a part of that problem. Taking lerk spore out of the equation will change little on the marine res front, and probably little on the alien res front...it will however offer a little more freedom to the marines. You act as though this is a catastrohpe, as if the marines having a bit of a chance to get some res is a death sentance for marines...when in reality it'll just mean the aliens don't change much and the marines get a bit more of a go of it.
Aliens should be CONSTANTLY taking down marine res, if the marines get it up faster, it shouldn't make any difference, it just means the aliens need to be a bit more vigilent.
In your world, it seems that there is 0% chance of skulks doing this, in my world it happens on 75-80% of the games played.
<b>Where Lerks are replaced by skulks</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"Firstly we're talking public games, so that should explain for one why the lerk needs to be changed to help marines in these cases."
Yet you say its role will be filled by clan standard skulk players. So instantly we can see a split. In pub games, the experienced player goes comm and thus knows about lerks. If its a new player, he'll ideally learn quickly that rushing a skulk is like building an OC beside a Siege turret.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And the alien team needs an antiexpansion weapon in the same manner that the siege cripples chamber expansion.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, I'm saying it's role will be filled by normal skulks that act a little more for the team than they do now on some servers, and exactly as they do now on other servers. you have a very negative view of skulks, one I can't see any justification for.
It might take one clan level skulk to stop four marines from moving to a point, but 2-3 average skulks will deal with those same guys adequettely depending on circumstance...both depend enough on circumstance though.
The alien anti-expansion weapon has been, and always will be, the mass of skulks with good communication. Aliens don't need a specific anti-expansion weapon to go along with their entire basic nature. Aliens expand well enough without negating marine expansion so greatly.
In Pub games the comm has more to worry about than a lerk...and in a lot of cases getting to a point superceeds the risk of a skulk attacking you.
A skulk (or more to the point, a small team of skulks that get together on command) can do the job just as well as a lerk does in area denial. They're fast enough to do it, and they're strong enough. The difference here is that the lerk needs not use hive sight, the skulks do.
One is in tune with the alien pathos, one isn't. I'll leave it up to you to work out <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No, lerks are the most effective counter to marine expansion. Period. 3 skulks? 2 more players than one lerk. With an inferior ranged attack. So with respect skulks will NEVER match the lerk. Two packs of three skulks cover two points on the map, and generally suffer casualties. Two lerks can cover two points on the map, suffer no casualties, and allow the other 4 to gorge up rts and chambers. Yes, I think we can see the difference.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lol, yes, one is immensely imbalanced, and one is in tune with the way aliens should be playing and is balanced <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Those two points...maybe two area's right outside the marine base? great! game over! Aliens are getting res and two lerks are caging marines in...woo hoo! This is balance because those lerks will lose their advantage when the marines get enough res to get HA's (in 40 minutes time)!
Area denial should be balanced off with expansion of your own race. you shouldn't be able to both totally deny area (in this case the whole map) and expand and take res freely.
If the only way of area denial was skulks and gorges...then you have balance. you can cage the marines in...but you pay for it with lack of expansion. you can expand, but you pay for it by letting marines expand...in which case your skulks need to make sure that they are taking out that res soon. You can mix the both, deny one third of the map with a good placement of OC's with skulk support, and get adequette res expansion to get enough income to survive.
What you shouldn't be able to do is both. Yes one lerk right now can do the job of 3-4 skulks...thats as good a reason as any to change them.
<b>The gorge bit</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Second, teamwork is present on the servers - just people don't go gorge. They can be exceptional fades, or lerks, but the trick is getting them to gorge up a chamber. And making the lerk support is only going to dump another role on the teamplayers who WILL go gorge.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And I repeat, this is not happening on the servers I am on, there are always enough gorges doing their job unless it's stupid hours of the day. You may have felt my comment was insulting, but for real, if your server is that bad currently that people don't go gorge but demand so much, you really should change servers...your problems you go on about with gorges I honestly have rarely if ever seen.
<b>To end...</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Let go of the past.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let go of the present. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Psycho-Kinetic Hyper-Geek+Sep 9 2003, 01:29 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Psycho-Kinetic Hyper-Geek @ Sep 9 2003, 01:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You wrote a 5,400 word essay about a support class in a video game. This is not healthy. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> And you counted how many words in the essay....lets form a love tryst. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Diablus+Sep 9 2003, 02:47 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Diablus @ Sep 9 2003, 02:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> i think just that post should be stickied becuase it must of took u at least 2 hours to type that necrosis i give u the reward for most into NS <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well it deffinately took at least 2 hours to write my reply <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo-->
"You wrote a 5,400 word essay about a support class in a video game. This is not healthy"
Is that the word count? Crikey. Must be the university essays, I guess.
Tho for speed I agree its time to start chopping out the dead wood. Kudos to whoever is reading the long posts out of curiousity, but for your benefit and enjoyment I'll make things as concise as I can. (afternote - sadly its still insanely long, sorry!)
<b>Start Game Tactics</b>
"Personally I don't agree on the whole concept you have runnign there."
Okies, what we have is a fundamental difference of concept that will not be changed. Though I will add that I'm of the opinion that res for kills can be overlooked for strategic gain (meaning you rush the marine spawn, lose your entire team but manage to take the CC down. You lose, reswise, but its gg).
Are the aliens designed for rapid expansion but hindered by relatively low tech? Is that their purpose? Its all in the minds of the devs.
<b>Marine Tactics</b>
"The reason I don't agree with this sentiment is because sieging a hive, or hoarding res for tech (though obviously not without excessive work for securing res) should be viable tactics. The trouble that I see with your arguments on this matter is they seem to be trying to say that marines should be rushing and should be attacking? You don't think that siege tactics are meant to be viable, or small expansion and res hoarding?"
Marines are weighted against defensive res hoarding. As such I don't think the hive siege is a viable tactic, nor should it be. IMHO the siege is very much an area denial weapon, keeping kharaa out of an area (aliens are much easier to kill without their chambers, I'm sure you agree). Too many comms seem reliant on letting the siege do all the work in the game.
Granted, sieging works at endgame but only when the odds are stacked in marine favour (and when the odds are stacked, any strat can win).
"I hate people that want to go back to 1.04. However I don't see why 2.0 marines should suffer losing strats and not gain any new ones. Currently marines rarely can pull off a siege based tactic thanks to the lerk...it's not to do with placement, it's simply to do with the lerk."
IMHO thats the intended progression of the marine game - a more offensive commando team designed to break the kharaa quickly. Am I right in my conception? Again its in the mind of the devs. We probably disagree over our perceptions here.
"Should marines only have two viable tactics?"
IMHO the aliens only have one tactic - attack. Its very easy to pidgeonhole strats. It may look (to you) like two viable strats but the methods to achieve them are varied. And wholly dependent on the alien counters.
"The tactics are there, they never disappeared. We're not talking about turning the game into 1.04 here, we're talking about maintaining diversity of marine tactics."
They're there, but they're obsolete or restricted. By design, IMHO. The restriction comes about as the dev team remove overpowered or abusive strats and boost the strategy side. Again, my perception. If you can win by following any strat, then the only option left to you is to tilt the game so that certain strats do not work.
"Do you play marines enough to see how boring the marine game gets with so little diversity? (honest question)."
Honest answer? I played enough to get frustrated with nonexistant teamplay. I do still play marines, but only with a competent team (competent comms are nice but I prefer squad buddies - its fun even when we lose). You will note that the growing trend of uncooperative Kharaa players is causing the same frustration.
Third Hive Abilities
"we're only talking about HA teams here"
I was referring to general third hive abilities. If we move to specifics, obviously some abilities will fare better than others. Xeno for example is excellent for catching JPs, tho almost worthless against HA.
"Against HA all the third hive abilities are pants"
Because most useful HA abilities appear at hive 2 - otherwise the 1 hive lockdown would be an unstoppable (unbalanced) strat.
The siege issue
"This simply doesn't make sense to me. How does closing off one half of the map make you safe from sieging the hive right in front of you?"
You'll find it easier to take a hive when aliens can't move as quickly. Additionally, because the aliens are choked at a single point, you are free to cap all the nodes behind your chokepoint at leisure, and without having to elec or tf any of them.
Aliens will be starved of res, so once the Onos die you'll have an easier period. Locking down a hive means they'll have 2 res nodes left than you can't get to without a hive rush (rts near hives but not IN hives can be knocked down repeatedly by marine hit'n'runs).
"This teamwork should pay off, and should give the aliens trouble if set up right and set up well."
As a tongue in cheek aside, pistol or knife rushes require teamwork - I don't think that logically means that they should be gamewinning. There are some cases where teamwork just means you die near your friends.
"While a lerk may not destroy a base, it renders it a no-mans land for a while at worst, and just a marine no-go area at best."
Which seamless fits into the lerks area denial capacity. Once you have a map sealed off, the lerks mobility is hampered, and even IF it passes the chokepoint, it can't do a lot of damage against RTs with spikes alone.
"Unfortunately that to me isn't teamwork, thats one player doing a big job and the rest sort of cleaning up."
Artillery force the enemy to keep their head down while the infantry mop up. It could be one man at the cannon, but he can kill squads of men if they rush into an artillery shell. IMHO its teamwork. Ditto the man with the GL who takes out the WoL before a hive rush.
"Siege bases only work in close proximities to the hive location"
Which I can't agree with - as a defensive structure at chokepoints they are exceptional. No MCs, no DCs, no SC if you're using your Obs properly - aliens have to run from the hive, get shot up, die, and come back. It takes a whole pack to level the TF just so they can mop up... and while that's happening a decisive hive rush can deliver a fatal blow to the alien team. A simple feint, and one that is easy for aliens to walk into because by necessity they NEED to drop the chokepoint in order to cap res.
"it's a case of the only place that they can go up and have the effect desired."
A perception issue where we differ on our concept of the siege's role. If you use the Search you can find a small thread where another poster and I discuss our differing opinion on the siege. If you wish, you may examine that for detailed reasons.
<b>Aliens for Newbies</b>
A title I disagree with, I much prefer <b>Which alien class for newbies</b>
"The Skulk is easier to use effectively than the onos without harming your team."
New onos players are good target sinks and tend to chase marines more than structures - this tends to scatter marines, allowing other players to exploit the hole in defence. While its not perfect, it IS an advantage. Compared to the skulk, where they die before entering the room. Removing the lerk, there really is no other choice for them.
"Yes there is an entry level "class", it's called marines."
Unfortunately marine strategy and cooperation differs from Kharaa strategy and cooperation. Lerks are a largely stationary and passive role, allowing a player to spend time paying attention to other things. Hiding in vents keeps the res fairly high (yes its hoarding) so you can stay lerk all game. As you gain confidence, you move to the other classes. Confidence = experimentation is a concept you must fundamentally agree with (even if you disagree with the description of the lerk) ?
"Then you go and learn how to skulk (seeming that is the alien you'll be most needed to use), which isn't half as hard as you seem to be making out."
Well tbh I see a lot of new people who find it hard to accept the quick and rapid death of the skulk - not to mention its lack of *effective* ranged weaponry (parasite only being of so much use). Not to mention the shotty, turrets, etc. The skulk involves quite a bit of new learning on the part of new players, whereas effective lerking can be learned rapidly.
"one that can be lessened if new players go marines first to watch as well as play"
With respect, playing marines can teach you precious little about the alien game. Especially if you end up on a losing run. Waypoints, orders, none of that is mirrored by the aliens. You don't even learn how to take down a TF as a marine - you just learn that 5 minutes ago you had a base and now its gone.
"Offering an easy out option is not the way to help"
Its how most games (FPS, strategy, RPG) ease new people in - the generic easy to use class. Consider AvP2 - as facehugger you learn to move and hide, as chestburster you learn basic attacks on top of this, and finally as mature alien its all tied together.
People cope better with a gentler learning curve.
"ok, well you're new...and I want you to play...but you're going in this group where your meager and newbie skills will have their maximum effect...and if the game is lucky you'll learn to progress from that...but at least our game isn't ruined if you never learn."
"Which, to be honest, is exactly how your argument is coming off. Harsh as that sounds, it's the only way I can actually read it"
Its a rather exaggerated interpretation of my view. From gaming experience on many platforms I can tell you that the worst games to learn are ones where experienced players have to dumb down their game for the new people. If the game is crippled by new players, you instantly create a tiered system where old players will ALWAYS blame the new player.
--You're new... I want you to play and enjoy yourself... but being fade and gorge are a bit tricky and people will flame you when you screw up, so here's an easier class where you limited NS experience will have its maximum effect. And if you're willing to learn you'll progress from that. And if you're a llama our game isn't ruined--
Bearing in mind I am convinced that lerks aren't a negatively overpowered problem for marines.
"if anything taking the lerks offensive weaponry out of first hive will mean the kill hungry newbies go back to learning how to skulk as they should be doing at that stage."
Unfortunately it puts massive pressure onto inexperienced players. Its an extreme form of selection and means that unless you're good, you can't play. With marines, you can be average and still enjoy the game because of sheer FPS experience. "average" skulks will require a higher level of play than marines. Lerks are by compariso easy to use, keep the player hooked into the game, and give him the confidence to experiment.
Secondly, nothing will help kill hungry players. They will ALWAYS be kill hungry.
"why then is it so impossible for new players to try learning the base class of aliens, rather than a better one?"
Not impossible - harder. I played AvP, Gold, AvP2 and its expansion, so I took to skulk like a duck to water. I'm not everyone, and I'd wager the sheer bulk of gamers out there may never have got to grips with the Alien class. They may never have bought AvP. Sure, SOME of us have, but I like to think that NS is a TEAMPLAY scifi mod, rather than a SCIFI teamplay mod. I may be wrong but hey, that my perception.
In response to the learning issue, why did you join the NS community. I'm just curious. And what games did you play before then in the same genre? AvP people walk right into the skulk. Zerg players stick with the alien class for their obvious love of alien species. Such people cope better with a steep learning curve. I'm considering the true newbie - one who has no idea how these alien things work, has never played AvP, and has no real reason to stay in NS other than how he/she copes with the game.
"Answer me, why should people be learning how to lerk before they learn to skulk, isn't that just like learning to run before you can walk in game terms?"
I don't believe the lerk is more advanced (to use) than the skulk in game terms. It can flap (bunny hop) and it can shoot over a considerable distance with several weapons. That makes it more "standard" than a wallcrawling extreme shortrange CC beast.
"Games without lerks are ones where the games are harder to call..."
But again allow fruitless out of character strategies to work. And unbalance area denial in favour of marines, when both teams should enjoy cost-free area denial.
<b>Changing the abilities order for lerk</b>
"What the lerk will lose in one place, it'll gain in another."
Gains a support move.. when its a sniperlike area denial unit. And the alien team loses a cheap solitary area denial unit, and in return gains............. another support class. IMHO loss greater than gain.
"A nerf is something like making the skulk slower (in 2.0-2.01 terms with celerity), making the fade cost more, making the hive cost 40 res instead of 35."
Well strictly speaking those examples not nerfs, as in they're not negative game imbalancing changes. Removing cheap area denial from the kharaa game is a colossal game changer, like removing the siege (spores at hive three mean no spores at all - 3 minutes of endgame hardly counts as use)
"Now, firstly have these simplified the game?"
No, but they don't remove any strategy, only slow the pace of alien expansion. Big difference. Removing spores very much WILL affect strategy, and since it'll become a 5 min endgame tool that means the entire alien early-mid game goes out the window. Certainly not a minor tweak to building speed.
"However what it does do is mean that bases probably won't last long at hive 1 if they're already up...marines will have to shift their emphasis from working to build a base to working to keep it."
IMHO they should be working on both. Its essentially spoonfeeding commanders. Haven't figured out that placement is essential? NM, the alien counter to obvious base placement is gone. Marines SHOULD work to build a base, in fact their game revolves around finding the best chokepoints and containing the aliens. Its not meant to be "rush to hive, siege hive, rinse repeat". With lerks, two obvious bases can be kept free of marines and at the same time the alien team can cap the nodes or exploit the marine absence at BOTH bases. The cost of building an obvious base has been crippling to the marine team. Removing the lerk removes the cost of silly bases, and makes aliens work harder to counter blatant marine mistakes.
Which IMHO is flawed. When aliens screw up by hoarding, marines can capitalise quickly and efficiently (and I've seen it done more and more frequently now). It should be no different for marines.
"Adding more diversity to the marine game doesn't make it a game of chance."
Its not adding diversity though - by your own words its adding "balance". Follow it to the ultimate conclusion - where knife rushes are balanced against Onos. Thats the true definition of balance, and at that point all that remains IS chance.
Your enemy can do any strat, and it WILL work. You can do any strat, and it WILL work. So you end up with a flat 50 50.
Taking out flawed strats will decrease "diversity" but it does so by decreasing "flawed gameplay". Lets say they remove the PG camping. That's removing diversity, but at the same promotes strategy. Strategy is using a limited selection of tools to achieve any desired result- making the most of what you have. Less "diversity", more strategy. Its not about "anything will work, anything will counter".
"what it means is the marines can adapt to the aliens plans as much as the aliens can currently adapt to the marines plan (singular)."
Which makes it a coin toss. Every strategy has a flaw, something to exploit. Remove the capacity for flaws and you make it harder and harder to achieve the decisive win. Currently games are short and decisive when marines, or aliens, screw up. They can be drawn out (lets destroy the RT and wall the marines up with DC, lololol!!!oneonoeleven) but fundamentally there's a point ingame where your screwup finally kills you. When marines execute a good strategy, and aliens do likewise, then we get the long game.
"Taking out lerk spore from hive one so that the marines have a little choice about what to do doesn't mean that the marines have a certain win"
But the only increase is allowing them to do utilise foolish tactics that just should not work. Currently foolish tactics make you lose, very quickly. As a COMM, you're an experienced player, so at this point you're expected to learn and adapt. (note the difference between the hard curve for experienced players and the easy curve for new players).
"it means the aliens need to work a little more at taking marine res than just building their own with their little oc nests to boot."
Why should the aliens suffer longer games purely so that marines can do silly things? A good alien team has their game crippled because the strategy has to be dumbed down to the level of bad comms.
"yet you defend so stoically the spores because that is the way the game is right now and that shouldn't change?"
Spores fulfil a key role in the alien armoury. Somethat that cannot be EASILY imitated for the same cost. Removing them is different from a downward slide to unworthy strategies.
"You claim Area denial is it's key role, it's not. The lerks key role IS support."
The perception issue I highlighted at the top of the post. As long as we differ on our concept of the lerk's role, we will differ on the use of spore.
"The little guerilla bit (probably still tacked on from 1.0+) is an aside, and lerks were never used until hive 2 in 1.04 (not if the aliens had sense anyway)."
But 1.04 is gone, the game has moved on, we're talking about 2.0 and up. We shouldn't be discussing the outdated and irrelevant version in comparison to the current game. It has no bearing on it at all.
"Lerks were then used as support."
Well if you insist on 1.04 talk, I've also heard that Fade were tanks. Classes have changed, there's no reason to cling to what they *were*. Some humour - would it be easier if the lerk had changed its name to the dinglebat? <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> (come on, huge post, need a bit of levity)
<b>Lerk vs Base story</b>
An experienced player exploited a badly assembled base (if the turrets didn't do their job, then I'm sorry but that base was badly defended and assembled) and made massive tactical gain. Which I lay at the feet of the comm. Moreso if it had been inexperienced player exploits badly made base.
"How do you counter this?"
Concisely, by not screwing up.
"In your opinion it would be some...area that manages to somehow (despite vents and such) cut off half the map from the aliens."
Yep, its all in picking the right chokepoint.
"a lerk turns up (a second one) and neutralises that area and stops the marines from doing anything from the moment they go through the phase gate."
Why go through the phasegate? Your base is a chokepoint, designed to stop the aliens - you don't need to be there. The PG is only there to make transport easier. Secondly, because you now own half the map, you can cap all the res farrr behind your lines, while the aliens are being starved of res and finding it increasingly hard to expand. That lerk can spore all day, and perhaps get lucky and fly over the chokepoint, but that leaves him on your side with no support and no effective way to smash the place up, barring evolving to another class (and thus becoming easier to kill). At most you can worry about two lerks crossing the choke, and ONE evolving while the other covers.... but that being the case you could probably rush a hive, or kill the evolved critter and leave the lerk alone..... forcing him to wait for a new friend or evolve himself (and thus get minced).
"Nah, it's more like going up to someone and saying "excuse me mate, I want to fight you, but you're not allowed to hit me for a whole minute, in which time I'm allowed to hit yuo at my leisure. After that minute though, I'll tie my hands behind my back" The point is that the guy that isn't allowed to hit in the first minute will be knocked out before the 1st minute is up in most circumstances...so what use is the stipulation that the other guy won't hit him at all after that minute?"
Erm.... well he can run away, dodge, weave, and wait the minute out. And then once that minute is up, he has ALL HIS LIFE to beat the first (now tied up) guy to a pulp. Its an exceptional trade off.
"One thing here that breaks your comparison is that siege needs teamwork to put up...so it's entirely different."
Nope, you're talking about one object on area denial. Removing the area denial promotes "more strategic use" of the other objects. Removing the siege means marines would have to make more strategic use of everything else... much like removing the lerk. Realistically, you can't remove either, because although they are (in one way) overpowered, its because they have to be. And even now the siege becomes more like the lerk, since it involves LOS.
And IMHO it does take lerk+skulk to spore "effectively" - sporing a turret farm won't get rid of the farm, just leave it quiet. The turrets will still fire at whatever appears.
<b>General Balance</b>
"Marine expansion is HARDER to pull off than aliens actually. "
*now*, but the quote refers to the hypothetical NS without Lerk Area Denial as compared to current NS. Its not comparing marines to aliens. With expansion costing less (no medspam, turretfarms can be manned, etc) you can spend more on building RT, which gets you more res - so the balance of marines being comparatively RT starved is gone.
There's a big section which (on reading) looks like it applies to the misquote.
"The imbalance present in 2.0-2.01d comes into its own with the fact marines can't expand fast enough to get those key few res right now, as well as aliens getting res up and defended too fast...and lerks are a part of that problem."
And is countered by the chokepoint, which stops expansion and allows you to cap more res than 3-4 individual bases scattered over the map. At a choke there's probably 2 paths into it from the alien side, and one path in from the marine side. You can park at the marine side and shoot up anything and everything (because you've only one area to defend). Much better strategic position.
Taking lerk spore out..... means expansion is unhindered, rines tech up faster, and good alien teams suffer more while trying to defeat inexperienced (or set-in-their-ways) comms who insist that hoarding all res to HA, hive camping, etc should all be viable strategies.
Aliens can only base camp when they have lots of res. Its no different for marines. Aliens who hoard to onos get to enjoy an erratic life of attack-redeem shortly before their hives get totalled in short order. Its the same for HA hoarding marines. Certain strategies should not work, and bad strategies get punished very quickly.
Aliens should be CONSTANTLY taking down marine res, if the marines get it up faster, it shouldn't make any difference, it just means the aliens need to be a bit more vigilent.
"In your world, it seems that there is 0% chance of skulks doing this, in my world it happens on 75-80% of the games played."
Again, you've confused my hypothetical lerkfree NS quote with real NS.
<b>Where Lerks are replaced by skulks</b>
"No, I'm saying it's role will be filled by normal skulks that act a little more for the team than they do now on some servers, and exactly as they do now on other servers."
Skulks are far harder to use for area denial than a lerk will ever be, and in a prior post you stated that clan standard skulks can take care of marine packs. Which led to the statement about a two tiered system. Its not a negative view of the skulk, its a negative view of the skulk <b>in terms of area denial compared to the lerk</b>. A lerk is for solo area denial - this allows other aliens to get on with expansion. Teamplay is an irrelevancy here. It doesn't matter if two or two hundred skulks can do the same job - lerks can do it alone. And that cannot be replaced by moving spore.
"The alien anti-expansion weapon has been, and always will be, the mass of skulks with good communication."
No, thats how you kill marines. Killing marines won't necessarily stop expansion - if 6 skulks rush 6 marines and 2 marines are left standing, then expansion has not been stopped. Lerks can stall marines singlehandedly without killing them, nor being killed themselves. In return the lerk has to camp in a vent or other hiding spot, filling a stationary role and acting as portable artillery. If the marine sidestep the lerk, it becomes useless - whereas its harder to sidestep a dozen skulks closing from all directions. A group of skulks who *will* suffer casualities...... or one biologically adapted area denial unit. As a parallel, one fits in better with evolutionary theory and the alien pathos.... the other does not.
"Aliens expand well enough without negating marine expansion so greatly."
Not really - alien expansion is rapid in current NS because they don't build up their rts, and 6 aliens can cap 6 at game start all at once. If aliens were forced to build OC at rts, then expansion would be slower. OCing up areas is something they would *have* to do in order to approach lerk area denial. So expansion is seriously crippled. Those 6 rts become 2 rts and four OCs.
"In Pub games the comm has more to worry about than a lerk.."
And rightly so - its as terrifying as a chokepoint hampering alien mobility. Chokepoints stop you getting to other hives, and taking them is usually futile (definitely futile when you've got effectively 4 mini rt bases crammed into one big fat choke).
"Lol, yes, one is immensely imbalanced, and one is in tune with the way aliens should be playing and is balanced"
The kharaa being survivalists, its outright stupid of them NOT to have an area denial unit. Secondly the lerk IS balanced, its offensive strength is nil endgame, its largely sedentary, and its easier to avoid than 3 skulks. The skulk is equally balanced - its offensive strength is constant, its fast moving, and hard to avoid. However on its own it can't achieve area denial - The lerk can.
"Those two points...maybe two area's right outside the marine base? great! game over! Aliens are getting res and two lerks are caging marines in...woo hoo! This is balance because those lerks will lose their advantage when the marines get enough res to get HA's (in 40 minutes time)!"
Yep, in the same sense that marines get two choke areas, cap all the res on the map, then blatter all three hives while the aliens hoard to get Onos (in 40 minutes time). Most alien players have figured out the aggression wins NS games, marine players are consistently cautious.
"Area denial should be balanced off with expansion of your own race. you shouldn't be able to both totally deny area (in this case the whole map) and expand and take res freely."
Unfortunately thats unrealistic - buffer zones are essential in wars. Without a buffer zone, you feel the pinch of enemy attacks sooner, you have less time to counterattack, and consolidation is suicidal since the enemy is right on your doorstep.
"Yes one lerk right now can do the job of 3-4 skulks...thats as good a reason as any to change them."
One lerk can do the job of 3-4 skulks <b>in area denial only</b>. Outside of area denial, skulks will do better.
<b>The gorge/lerk mirror bit</b>
"your problems you go on about with gorges I honestly have rarely if ever seen."
Your comparison to v1 is flawed, as we are discussing two very different games. I think, from the posts, that our fundamental differences concern the lerk's role and the strategies used by marines.
Other than back & forth posting, the only real solution is to find what the devs intended. I imagine it to be a little bit of both our viewpoints?
Ugh, man...I would reply to this had I not lost the internet for 5 days! But in a fit of nostalgia I'm bringing this to the front just to show that a) I'm alive and b) that I didn't just abandon the thread!
Nice debating with you...now I have to fill out job applications... <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
This topic should become a classic <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
No, better, a myth, a legend, an epic <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Still, it was, among some of the really interesting topic I've read, one of my favorite <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
-Lee
"Not at all...most double res take overs are done before lerks are available at all...double res take overs are usually relocates and any semi-decent alien team will clear them out with skulks alone."
Again, with decent players vs decent players, a pure skulk defence will get annihilated. And to devote ALL skulks to stopping the relocate means no alien RT capping - which throws the entire game balance because aliens are seemingly meant to expand FAST and EARLY.
"in the example above it takes a dumb marine to get itself into trouble and killed. In the lerks spore case, it takes any marine, regardless of skill, to get effected in some degree."
Well IMHO its always been the marine teams own dumb fault if they end up on the business end of lerks. Its a rather brutal method of informing marines that rushing to obvious areas is NOT what they're meant to do, but sometimes you need to be harsh to instil common sense into people.
"This isn't how it works, because the lerk is the only unit in the game that gets more effective the bigger the group it faces."
Its also the only unit that gets increasingly ineffective as time goes on. Secondly, the fact its good at killing groups should be a clear indication to marine commanders that you don't rush a lerk, and that additionally you don't put yourself in a position to BE lerked.
Why is it not an offensive unit at endgame? Because it is so offensive earlygame. Thats a gaming balance. Same way in some games there are tanks that are excellent against infantry and hopeless against other tanks.
"A lerk is the master of stopping expansion...and this is in my eyes just plain wrong."
Though its the role the lerk is intended to fill. I'd wager if you asked one of the designers they'd probably label its early game as area denial and late game support. Like artillery.
"How is taking out the aliens spores at hive 1 simplifying the game?"
"For marines expansion gets simpler, yes,"
Question, and answer. Marine expansion is easier to pull off, meaning that marines get to their endgame tech a lot faster, meaning the game balance is certainly not what it currently is. Lets not forget that the great strength of marines is their tech ability, and that their tech abilities are BALANCED by their inferior res capping ability.
"I don't see why newbies should be restricted to a class that is simple for them"
Its not restrictive. In any game, there's an entry level character class. In AvP2 its probably the standard marine. From there you could go to Heavy Weapons, or Scout. From there you could move to Alien, or Predator, and their subclasses. The marine team needs no entry level class - everyone's used to playing as a gun toting biped. Kharaa begin with skulks that are fairly easy but certainly not comparable to marines. The lerk has several ranged abilities and is fairly mobile - in terms of learning the ropes its superlative. Learn to use spore/spikes, watch the other aliens. Perhaps learn a bit of Scream teamwork. From there you can refine lerk, or experiment with other classes.
Easy, and gradual. Not "well newbie, you're in the real world now. Here's five classes, two support, two tricky ones, and one very big and slow one thats easy enough to use". Support classes are largely boring to the newbie, and not entry level. Fades are not entry level, skulks are barely entry level. Onos takes a while to hoard for and is easier to use assuming you follow the new player credo of eat and camp.
...with little oppertuinity unless they wish to take it to actually learn the game...just so experianced playes get the pick of the other classes? If anything the changes would mean newbie players are forced to learn the game.
"Personally, I think people should be more willing to pass on wisdom and lose some games, if it means the community size and skill is increased..."
Unless you're marine, because the wisdom of "don't rush obvious spots" is rarely accepted. Second, I find it easier to pass on wisdom to a new lerk player (use this weapon when you see/hear us) than to explain to an Onos hoarder precisely why hoarding damages the team.
"I certainly cannot agree to any degree with your resolution to keep the newbies content with their little overpowered class so long as it doesn't cost the game for the experianced guys."
Well actually the point I was making is that the new players can get to grips with the game without affecting the game for other players. Thusly new players are seamlessly integrated into the game..... instead of giving them purposefully harder classes to use and just telling them "get over it, learn and adapt, run your own server and practice".
Multiplayer games that involve crippling your play just to help the new players are flawed. We were all new once - would people find it easier to learn Lerk or Fade? NS is exceptional (imho) in that new players can jump right in with the oldies and noone is treading on anyone else's toes.
"You don't HAVE to do anything to "wipe the bottoms of people", you can do whatever you like to have fun in the game, meanwhile other people that are a little different to you will go lerk or learn lerk for the teams benefit."
Actually I spend most of my games as gorge, and consider going Fade to be my little treat. I'm very much a teamplayer, as I have reiterated in my posts. I know other permagorges that look forward to their skulkbomb fun at endgame. I don't think any teamplayer wants to spend his game covering for the ENTIRE team's slackness. Secondly, people already CAN go lerk and learn lerk for teamplay, and whats more they can actually enjoy doing it.
"If there is one alien class where we can "relegate" new players and not bother with them...that needs to be changed anyway."
Relegate? I think you should consider the role of entry level classes.
"if you and your other experianced players don't want to go gorge and lerk, don't go gorge and lerk. In the short time this might mean losses for aliens, in the long term it'll mean everyone knows how to play better and the game will benefit for it."
Whatever. Read the above, and read the other posts.
"A lerk with idiot tendancies goes without being noticed by the alien team for ages, and even then...what are you going to say...excuse me mr lerk, can you come give us some damn support?"
Quite funny, its the direct parallel of my post on idiot gorges. Recall that lerks can be seen on the minimap - chambers cant, unless you've SEEN them. And it's rather easy to tell a lerk "go here and use spore" as opposed to "go here, build an OC here, and one here, and one on top.. oh, ok, I'll show you how to build on top.... no, not in the doorway....ok you see the problem with that sensory is that its right in the middle of the corridor.... no I'm just trying to help you.... look we can't get past that wall...."
I don't think I need to go on.
"I feel you've got a kind of negative outlook on the players of the game, because I can't see this lack of wish to help and support myself. If anything, taking another attacking class and making it more support will help this mentality anyway in the long term."
I've a negative outlook on the bulk of players who think that that magic gorge fairy will build everything for them. Second, I don't see how putting a perfectly capable offensive class in the same role will somehow encourage them to go support. On the contrary, its one more job for the gorge teamplayer to take care of. If 4 out of 5 aliens were non-offensive support classes, where do you think the majority of players would be? Teamplayers would be struggling to cover 4 roles, while the glory boys would be saving for the attack class.
And again, that cripples the game balance and sends it rocketing firmly into marine dominance.
"One alien stopping it? Sorry I can't see the balance in the game."
The lerk stops you building. If you are sieging where they can find it, then it is the comms fault for such a foolish tactic. If you intend to win any battle, the trick is not to make your attack blatantly obvious unless you intend to feint. Parking a siege outside a hive is good if you intend to rush the other entrance.. but its moronic if you actually intend to hold it for any length of time. The lerk finds it hard to harm structures, so the marines can recycle with minimum loss. You take the lick and find somewhere thats tactically viable.
Consider the siege - it stops chambers being built, and is only "obviously overpowered" if you're uncoordinated enough to let it get built near your hive or decide to sit beside a chamber.
"Firstly we're talking public games, so that should explain for one why the lerk needs to be changed to help marines in these cases."
Yet you say its role will be filled by clan standard skulk players. So instantly we can see a split. In pub games, the experienced player goes comm and thus knows about lerks. If its a new player, he'll ideally learn quickly that rushing a skulk is like building an OC beside a Siege turret.
"You can go on as much as you like about smart comms and **** like that but it's all bollocks, at the end of the day...if a marine team wishes to use the siege tactic, they need to get bloody close to a hive to do it...and that close means that it's either patrolled or is heard from inside the hive."
No, sadly thats what marine comms think tho. You can only siege a hive doorstep if you're at a huge strategic and resource advantage. Sieges are designed for defense, for keeping aliens out of an area. You put your marine bases at choke points and bleed the kharaa dry of res.
"yet at the same time you talk about how the marines need to pull off these complicated and res costly strategies on public servers?"
Complicated? Res costly? Its just moving the doorstep siege to positions of actual relevance.
"changing lerks gives the marines a little more freedom, then where is the problem in this?"
Because rather than marine players actually trying a tactic that works, they insist on trying things that dont work and then complaining about them. Case in point, the Onos. No, its too overpowered! Aaah, save us from the alien classes who are filling the role they were designed for!
TBH its like running into a brick wall. You can jump into it, sidestep, spin, shouldercharge, crawl, and you'll get hurt each time. You'll also not pass the wall. Now, you can either go around it, or claim it's overpowered and should be removed. Going around requires that understanding that you're approaching the subject the wrong way, and learning how to circumvent it. Removing the wall makes it easier to pass, but at the same time removes the whole "getting past the wall" dynamic.
"Marines in 2.01d have got some nessacery changes to get boosts to allow expansion and collection of res, a couple of changes to things like lerks that so predominantly hamper marines can only end up helping to balance the game."
Tweaks, like putting grips on the wall to allow easier climbing. The changes are made to help marines get a better idea of what they're meant to be doing... although some will still charge at the wall, ending up with concussion and claiming its still overpowered.
"But from yuor own writing, without these defenses lerks can run amock and help end the game before HA is viable or possible! t's very much catch 22 for the marines."
Not really. Build in smart places, actively attack the enemy - does a lot more than futilely trying to siege a hive or sitting in base hoarding the res for tech.
"And that will always happen, you either live with it and do it, or tell them you can't and get them to do it."
Lerk. It will always be for area denial. Etc.
"If they won't do it the aliens will be disadvantaged and those players need to learn how to play the game, if they do do it then the teamis hunky-dory thanks very much."
Lerks. Learn how to deal with them, if they do then the team is hunky dory. Mm.
"Maybe you need to get off of your server to ones where they play NS, not "everyone go onos and fade"
Real nice. I have only listed occassions where these events have occurred, and doubtless there would be an increase if the lerk was moved firmly to support.
"Web is useless against HA, the welders rip through the webs as if they weren't there."
You can adren web and if nothing else it buys some respite from the guns.
"Charge does no/little damage to people right now, especially HA marines"
Annihilates buildings, bases, etc.
"Xeno does damage but it is easily repaired and there's a while before that skulk can come back and xenocide."
Knocks people around the room, destroying cohesive defence, and with celerity you can spam xeno rushes with impunity. TBH I see xeno end more stalemates than any other class/ability
Though to continue the "third hive moves blow" train of thought, Screaming is hopeless against HA if you wish to be technical. Xeno, Web, and Charge all require an element of teamwork, and on their own will not be as useful. Ditto Scream.
IMHO I still see third hive moves as effective.
"I see most lerks use spore at end games anyway...so why not move spores there, it's not like they'll change anything in alien end games."
Certainly if marines are all LA, and dug inside a tfarm base. By necessity the Lerk has to spore the numbers down, prevent a counterrush. It can Umbra, but be grenaded, and it can scream but generally that'll have no significant effect with redeem Onos (sadly still the popular evolve against tfarms, as opposed to regen and teamwork.... or cara and a nearby DC nest).
Secondly spores are much more valuable than scream if you expect a Distress Beacon, and distress beacons go off an awful lot these days.
"Nah, I'm sorry, that isn't balance...not even in a freaky upside down way you're explaining it."
Well its sort of like explaining gravity as part of superstring theory, but you really have to be there, tbh.
"Then don't do it, let someone else do it."
No, sadly my conscience makes me want to be a teamplayer. I am happy to follow it <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
"are you afraid of taking steps that mean less influence of one player and more need for teamwork?"
Real mature. What you suggest is equivalent to removing sieges and instead suggesting that marines use "normal" turrets as it "promotes strategic placement".
"Ugh, its a very valid tactic for christ sake"
Actually its a valid but mentally deficit tactic. The aliens KNOW its there, they WILL take it down. Try popping one up at a siege point and cutting off mobility. Aliens generally won't spot it unless its too late, because they're busy capping res. Second, its away from a hive, so no instant counterrush. Neither will MCs work. Plus points? You seal off half the map with only one base, so not only is it cheaper, it means you can spend maybe double the amount you would on ONE base, because this little baby covers the 5 minibases you were trying to build.
"Why should marines be penalised for wanting some strategic diversity in their game?"
Well, there's strategic diversity, and there's crippling the gameplay.
"If a marine or 4 are building a siege base it will always be in a place of danger."
Not really.
"have you played 1.04? Because from 1.04 a lot of tactics seem to have been lost or severely nerfed."
No, and why would I want to? Even if I had, its got nothing to do with the later versions. If you keep playing the later versions with the same old strats, then you're going to spend a lot of time running into that brick wall and claiming its overpowered.
These tactics need to be made viable again so that marines have some diversity. If this means that one poor lerk player has to change the way it plays, so be it. I don't think that the lerks properties needs defending in such ways as "well marines shouldn't be doing this perfectly viable tactic" or "marines shouldn't be going for these perfectly needed places" or "marines should not run out of their base to go and do the task assigned to it, if the lerk has spored everywhere!"
"because you can really avoid Glers? If the guy is spamming one entrance to yuor hive, it's not hard at all to take a GLer down, I've done it enough times. if all entrances are covered by GLers, it's almost impossible to get out of your hive at all..."
And thus good job marines for getting two GL JPs close to our woefully undefended hive. No nerf required - just better alien tactics.
"I also find it strange that you compare sporing to GL spamming, somethign widely seen as lame and argued against many a time to be nerfed..."
Nope, GL spamming is camping at the armory exploiting the (now gone) reload cycle. Sitting with a JP in a vent miles from marine base isn't GL spam. Your comparison is flawed.
"The only useful siege positions ARE risky and somewhat silly."
Depending on your use. Closing off half the map with a siege defended tfarm with a pg and some men minimises risk and maximises gain.
"This should be shown properly by showing that only adequete team work from an alien team can break it down...not one 30 res alien."
The lerk only stops marines welding it back up, they're not base smashers.
"The siege rush, the phase rush...they are old and still perfectly viable strategies...they shouldnt' be nerfed to some degree because of some peoples love for lerks spore."
The heavy horse of medieval times don't compare to modern heavy machine guns and artillery. Sure, heavy horse WERE viable, but no longer. IMHO its the same in NS. The siege rush, start rush, tech rush, etc, are all viable, but some just don't translate to NS.
IMHO we change our tactics to fit the game, not change the game to fit our tactics.
"Onos is easy to use? Right..."
Compared to the fade and skulk? Certainly.
"play any NS game where lerks don't happen (I've played a few) and they're far more enjoyable games in 2.0"
You know I could play games where NS doesnt happen at all, and find them more enjoyable. More on topic, I've played games with lerks and they've been fun because the comm hasn't sent us charging repeatedly into a spore cloud. Only one game involving lerks has been a disappointment, and that was when 4 lerks rushed our totally defenceless base.
Now, was that an obvious proof of overpowering lerks.......... or the result of an insane comm and his teamcrippling strat?
"It would also mean that new players need to learn how to use the classes."
Which they do already, just your suggestion warps the learning curve. And the alien team needs an antiexpansion weapon in the same manner that the siege cripples chamber expansion. The aliens get theirs earlier as part of the apparent design philosophy favouring early alien expansion.
"(with the basic tactics that have to be carried through versions)"
They certainly don't have to. Let go of the past.
"Or perhaps that they need to learn the game or their experiances in NS will be greatly varied depending on if those people are present to wipe their noses?"
Well lets see.... bad player joins NS, finds it fun as a lerk... learns teamwork about Scream and Umbra, stays for a while, tries other classes.
OR
Bad player joins NS.... all the classes are hard except for this big rhino thing, but it takes a lot of res.... so I'll hoard all my res. Damn this game is dull, I'm going off to play something else.
New/selfish players can fit into the lerk role without affecting gameplay. Without the lerk role, they affect gameplay by trying to find their niche amongst the other, more skilled classes.
"Or if you don't look so negatively on the game, more people will learn how to be team players bcause their game experiance will be greatly effected if they don't, and people will get a better standard of play."
If we keep nerfing it make it easier for marines to use obsolete strats, then eventually it boils down to a very boring game where marines do anything and perhaps 50% of the time it works. It becomes a coin toss, because everything is beaten down to a "perfect balance".... a perfect balance of course relying on nothing but CHANCE.
"People do learn to change..."
But not their outdated strategies? Nor how to cope with a lerk?
"Just because something gets nerfed doesn't mean it's going to just change things for the worse, it means people will adapt."
If you nerf in the pursuit of perfect balance, then yes it DOES change for the worse. And experienced players end up with the problem of overly simplified gameplay.
QUOTE
It'll kill the influx of new players and means NS is reduced to a bunch of gamers who've been playing it for years, with little to no influx of new players because its "too hard".
"I fail to see how it will become "too hard", all it'll do is become a little bit more like 1.04 where there was a little more reliance between the alien team than there is currently. There wasn't a problem then, why should there be a problem now? If the game is drawing new players because of things like the lerk and its overpowered abilities, then thats a bad thing."
If the game moves to total reliance on teamplay for all sides, then yes it will be too hard. The game should allow for inexperienced players (currently it does). Secondly, if the balance is restricted to "Marines have LA LMG, Aliens have Skulks with LMG damage parasite", that is where each side has identical strengths only in reskins or new models, then you've bled out everything that makes NS what it is.
Balance is not always about a flat 50 50. Strong earlygame, weak endgame. Thats balance. Strong infantry, weak tanks. Thats balance.
"Hey team, we're surrounded by spores, and there's absolutely no chance of the lerk letting up...and we can't kill him because he's too fast for us...so we'll just wait in this corner for 15 minutes until he goes onos!"
Again we're back to charging the brick wall.
"What I'm doing is taking out spore, changing the other abilities to better fit the way aliens will be aligned in the game (umbra to help against small bases, small marine excursions at hive 1, umbra and primal scream to help take out set bases at hive 2, and spore + the rest in the end game). Also I add the fact that teamwork is present on servers, they don't seem to be on yours however."
Unfortunately your replacement is nowhere near as effective as the area denial that the lerk is designed for. So you are nerfing it - nerfing it purely because its doing its job.
Second, teamwork is present on the servers - just people don't go gorge. They can be exceptional fades, or lerks, but the trick is getting them to gorge up a chamber. And making the lerk support is only going to dump another role on the teamplayers who WILL go gorge.
"right now the lerk gets used for one thing and one thing alone, sporing marines."
Area denial, its key role. Kind of like saying the skulk gets used for biting marines, imho. Both are doing the job they're designed for.
"helping onos/fade as it should be doing now"
IS that what it should be doing now?
"I hate to sound like the "omg learn to aim" guys, but for god sake, if you can't find a team on your servers to restrict marines using skulks then you really need to go and find another server."
You have become that which you despise. Thus plays out the tragedy of Man.
Second - nothing, absolutely nothing in NS can do what a lerk does with the same effect. Rushing with skulks? Some skulks will die. You can't skulkbite a marine hiding around a corner. But lerks can. And don't get killed. Thats their job, thats what no other class can replace.
"Lerks can't build stuff, but they can protect aliens like no other alien can...people need to start realising this use."
Yes and they learn by playing the game and learning the fine points - not thrown in at the deep end where basic survival/ambush/wallcrawling has to be learned.
"And so the aliens will lose, and people will have to learn to change or keep losing. In the long term it'll help. If you're patient enough to see through to the long term?"
Marines are coping with lerks..... in the long term. Parallel?
"the lerk doesn't need to see the mid-end marine game thanks to its overpowered nature."
The fraghunting lerk player may not have to, true, but with his res he can go onos. And still contribute to the team.
"is it balanced that a lerk can be so powerful in the early game that it plays a large part in ensuring it never sees a marine end game? Is that fair and balanced?"
Totally. You need to stop seeing balance as a flat 50 50. If I'm fully armoured in, say, Unreal Tournament, and I crouchwalk into an open area and die to a headshot... is that unfair, or my own fault? Wouldn't you say I should have known better than to slowly crawl through open terrain?
The initial early offensive strength is counterbalanced by its late game offensive weakness. That is not 50 50 everything is equal balanced, but its balanced in terms of power. Power that is only excessive if you put yourself in a position to be affected - either by leaving an open base or by having your doorstep siege spotted.
"You say that siege bases shouldn't be able to go up in the only place they work..."
No, I say they're not MEANT to go up in the only place YOU think they work.
"you also say that the HA train tactic isn't a necessity? It's the only tactic currently available that works against anything other than an awful alien side!"
Its not a necessity. The shotty rush can win games and involves virtually no teching up. And is effective against even experienced alien teams if they're caught flat footed.
"Necrosis: Lerks are the newbie players class, making them harder to use will mean experianced players have to do all the support"
Wrong. Or at least worded in a derogatory manner. The lerk is the entry level, easy to use class - removing the weapon which makes them entry level will remove their appeal, forcing new players to have a steeper learning curve, possibly leaving the game entirely. And only because they found the learning curve too hard.
Picture walking into NS without the lerk class. Where do you go to from skulk? And the class you choose, how long to master? Most of us have went from skulk - lerk - whatever. Learning teamplay and tactics. Those of us like myself who've played AvP2 will move into Fade with relative ease, and cope with skulk wallwalking and ambushes.
However, imagine the standard FPS player. He needs a gun, has been living in largely 2 dimensional planes. He'll pick up the lerk very easily.
"Necrosis: Lerks are the only real counter to siege rushes, and to stopping expansion...you expect 2-3 skulks to take out 8 marines making a siege base?"
No, lerks are the most effective counter to marine expansion. Period. 3 skulks? 2 more players than one lerk. With an inferior ranged attack. So with respect skulks will NEVER match the lerk. Two packs of three skulks cover two points on the map, and generally suffer casualties. Two lerks can cover two points on the map, suffer no casualties, and allow the other 4 to gorge up rts and chambers. Yes, I think we can see the difference.
Secondly, 2-3 skulks destroy/stall a siege base - a lerk can only stop it being built. Big difference, and you've misinterpreted my explanations.
"Also, just because lerks may lose the ability to stop expansion, that doesn't mean the old fashioned and reliable way of skulks won't do the job just as well."
Actually it does, and very much so. Read above.
"Necrosis: Changing the abilities makes the lerk useless."
No, changing the abilities will make the lerk useless at the role of solo area denial. IMHO area denial is what it does, and when thats over with it moves to a supportive role. Hell, area denial IS a support role, it cuts off reinforcement.
"and will be more balanced."
RE: nerfed to a role marines can cope with in their limited way, and remove its role as THE area denial class for aliens.
"I can't see how anything can be balanced if its over powered starts contribute so widely to never seeing the marine end games."
A man has a six shot magnum, you have a laser cannon that takes 30 seconds to charge. If you stand in front of the man, he will shoot you and you will die. If you dodge intelligently, he will miss, and then you can kill him. In the startgame the odds are in his favour in terms of power, but at endgame he's stuffed, as we say.
"which in my opinion is enough of an incentive to change things, because if players are playing in this way then they need to learn and change so that the standard of play is increased in NS."
Its unfair to the new players who are forced to adapt to a hellishly steep learning curve (as opposed to the easier lerk route) and unfair on experienced players who have to change their entire game to accomdate a new player.
Note I don't say bad player, but new player - because bad players will not be helped by any nerf.... they'll keep causing problems, and in this case moreso.
"Edit: Also, when I posted the above post, Necrosis, I was in a rush to meet some friends...so some of my points may have come accross as a little more cutting or perhaps cynical than they were written as. Please take no offence"
Implying I don't want to lose, calling me elitist, and above all saying I don't gorge? Wow, real mature. IMHO perhaps you could have saved the text halfway and just posted later, when you'd spare time. Because to be quite honest I find it in very bad taste that after we come to an agreement about namecalling, I'm suddenly having the elitist a-hole card played at me.
You can understand my annoyance. Hopefully my response has been civil, despite taking a considerably longer amount of time to construct (as I like to post in a pleasant constructive demeanour).
Well silly people who find this interesting and niaccurshi will <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> (I don't say niaccurshi isn't as silly as us, or that he's not interested, but he will certainly read it in order to get a suitable -read "probably long"- answer)
<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Besides the one who are posting their thoughts about the subject at hands, I'm afraid I have to say that the other ones who are keeping this topic alive are... people like you who post "It should be dead by now!" here <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->**** me! necrosis I will hunt you down and break your keyboards! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lol! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
This won't work, keyboards can be replaced as often as needed <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Instead have him banned from the forums for an Intemporal amount of time for Long, Consistant, Topic-related, Civil and structured posts issues <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
BTW, I've been able to say in a long strait sentance something like 23 "OMG!" while scrolling down the answer of Necrosis at a HMG rate <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Yes I have silly entertainments <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Its for support, not for rushing into the marine base at the start of the game and sporing them to death or forcing them to relocate.
Suppose to say....to end the dispute with a lerk you have to bring him to your terms....
One way would be to feign the fact that you have a lot of health,and we know once aliens hear the words 'Comm I need a medpack!' they will feel the urge to kill the marine ASAP
That is one mistake a lot of alien players do,including me (yes I admit it)
The others....I don't know,you have to find it yourself,after all noone has the REAL answer to killing lerks quickly and efficiently without saying the word teamwork , which is indeed a very powerful exploit on pubs that can tear aliens apart :\
/me has seizure
I tried to read it, I really did ;_; Maybe if he split it up into chapters, and posted one a day or something...
I think nia's one of the most open-minded and neutral guys involved in this arguement and I find myself sitting here bobbing my head like some kinda nodding dog when reading through his points.
In the end the lerk is supposedly an aggressive support cast but it's support abilities don't even really kick in until the 2nd hive. The problem isn't really much about anything as silly as "OMG LERKS OWNZORZ M3!!! NERF! NERF!!!" as that it's not even really set up to act out it's assigned role until the aliens are capping another hive or two o.O
I can see the potential 'support' usage of the spore clouds as a sort of temporary defence screen, panic inducer, area clearance and opening barrage for a charge but it's a little too open to "I AM L337!!! M3 KILLz R1N3Z!!! WOOT!" attitudes in it's current form, making it an attractive early choice for fragmonkeys while they wait for mr rhino ^^;
As much as I love the idea of people reforming and getting out of the lonewolf ideal within NS, it's just not a realistic expectation; there's always going to be people coming and going from the NS scene like any other game and so you'll always get the griefers, the fragfanatics and all the other negative and positive types... they're not going anywhere unless the game starts forcing them to do otherwise <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
while the flipping about of the skills sounds like the best idea suggested (1 hive - spike & umber, 2 - primal, 3 - spore) one thing I haven't seen come up really if that's not viable is a small tweak to it. For example, what if the gas was treated as drowning damage?
While in the noxious clouds your hp would start dropping drastically like it does now causing most less prepared people to panic, weakening their health to make any attacks easier and generally detering people from entering the gassed area if possible. The difference would come the minute the cloud dissapates or the marine escapes its choking confines; they would get back the health knocked out by the drowning damage gradually just like when when you break the surface after drowning.
This way it would still serve it's potential support role for harassing, detering and weakening while negating the current trend to basically use it as a potential 'uber kill' or team destroyer =3
how does that sound? It's not really a nerf, it doesn't upset the current weapon order and it might encourage it to be used for what it was probably added for in the first place <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
be gentle... I know it's not a great idea to jump into a big debate when you first hit a forum but hey, this <b>is</b> my first post ^~
Welcome on board <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I don't have alot of time -still worling on my first model- but I had to say that I do really like the idea of "drawning damage" for the spore cloud <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I'll add more thoughts about it in due time, but chances are people will have already added theirs when I'll get back, so you will have plenty to discuss <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
guess I'll go assault the OT forum and the 'first chamber' argey bargey later for fun too XD
Bit nackered after visiting a mate in hosptial and the car breaking down on the way back...so I guess I'll reply to some of these things a bit later.
Except for...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->HOLY CRAP?! Who is going to read all of that........ I certainly didnt, and this topic should be dead.... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's amazing what an actual real discussion with less than a percentage of it being flaming can cause ?_?
-Lee
If its any consolation it looked a lot smaller in the tiny posting window.
You know perhaps I should pimp myself out to Flayra as official person what responds to balance posts. Well, Niac or I. One of our posts would have all but the most determined running off and deleting their account.
<!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
but no offense psyco counting all of those words aint to healthy either <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
i think just that post should be stickied becuase it must of took u at least 2 hours to type that necrosis i give u the reward for most into NS <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah I should have, hopefuly you'll have taken my appology, and I'll explain my elitism claims a little better later hopefully. However, I didn't say you don't gorge, I said for the amount you complained about people getting at you about your requirements as a gorge, you ought to just give it up. With that out of the way...
I'm going to do something radical now...I'm going to try and adapt my technique of replying here to minimise the reply length (heh, as if) and just make it a bit easier to read.
<b>Start Game Tactics</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Again, with decent players vs decent players, a pure skulk defence will get annihilated. And to devote ALL skulks to stopping the relocate means no alien RT capping - which throws the entire game balance because aliens are seemingly meant to expand FAST and EARLY. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now about the above...Personally I don't agree on the whole concept you have runnign there. I will always say my team (as aliens) should be skulk rushing to the one or two of the main relocate points (double res or obvious hive etc.). Someone here posted a very detailed analysis that shows that one marine killed in Res for Kill terms is worth 5 aliens killed in the opposite way (I believe) at a 9 v 9 level.
Note I'm talking 9v9 a lot here, as the servers I play on are usually 9v9 unless reserved slots are filled etc.
Even if all the skulks get killed, on an equal skill basis, I find it is useful to do such an act. Firstly you'll usually knock out half the marine team, and secondly certain players will have gained very useful res. The marine build time is significantly shortened as a result, and capping key res around the aliens first hive isn't hard to achieve. All it does is delay the alien expansion by about 2 minutes tops, and in those two minutes the marines have done nothing but run for a relocate and lost time in building the relocate.
In total, in my experience, such rushes can throw marines off for long enough to gain adequate res for certain skulks, and allow one or two alien players to stick behind and cap a couple of really early res.
Now..
<b>Marine Tactics</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"But from your own writing, without these defences lerks can run amok and help end the game before HA is viable or possible! t's very much catch 22 for the marines."
Not really. Build in smart places, actively attack the enemy - does a lot more than futilely trying to siege a hive or sitting in base hoarding the res for tech.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The reason I don't agree with this sentiment is because sieging a hive, or hoarding res for tech (though obviously not without excessive work for securing res) should be viable tactics. The trouble that I see with your arguments on this matter is they seem to be trying to say that marines should be rushing and should be attacking? You don't think that siege tactics are meant to be viable, or small expansion and res hoarding?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Marines are coping with lerks..... in the long term. Parallel?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Um, right...personally I'm still seeing the same old problems with still no way to cope with them. The lerks aren't having such a free reign on marines, but they're still bugging them far too easily without team help.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No, and why would I want to? Even if I had, its got nothing to do with the later versions. If you keep playing the later versions with the same old strats, then you're going to spend a lot of time running into that brick wall and claiming its overpowered.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->IMHO we change our tactics to fit the game, not change the game to fit our tactics.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats not my point, I hate people that want to go back to 1.04. However I don't see why 2.0 marines should suffer losing strats and not gain any new ones. Currently marines rarely can pull off a siege based tactic thanks to the lerk...it's not to do with placement, it's simply to do with the lerk. The marines have gone from version to version from about 5 or 6 starts to 2, 3 if you count the two hive lock-down tactic that only works against really stupid alien teams.
Should marines only have two viable tactics? I digress though, as dealing with spores to help this tactic be able to happen still leaves the marines short of diversity in the tactics market, it would however help.
The tactics are there, they never disappeared. We're not talking about turning the game into 1.04 here, we're talking about maintaining diversity of marine tactics. Your argument to me doesn't make sense when you come to the point of not answering why you seem to think 2 marine tactics are viable? The adapted shotgun rush (before it used to happen, but without targetting RT's), and the HA train. Where are these other tactics bred out of 2.0? I'll answer you, they're not there, because no new tactics WERE bred out of 2.0....they were changed and adapted, but not added.
Do you play marines enough to see how boring the marine game gets with so little diversity? (honest question).
<b>Third Hive Abilities</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->IMHO I still see third hive moves as effective.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You can adren web and if nothing else it buys some respite from the guns.
"Charge does no/little damage to people right now, especially HA marines"
Annihilates buildings, bases, etc.
"Xeno does damage but it is easily repaired and there's a while before that skulk can come back and xenocide."
Knocks people around the room, destroying cohesive defence, and with celerity you can spam xeno rushes with impunity. TBH I see xeno end more stalemates than any other class/ability<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Any good HA team will weld at the front shoot at the back, it's not a problem. Your charge comment matters little as we're only talking about HA teams here, and likewise with Xeno, very few skulks get near to a HA pack before prematurely xenoing or being killed.
Against HA all the third hive abilities are pants, as I've said, and do little or nothing to help against HA, and as such most of the time it's a better idea to use the other hive abilities against this enemy.
I do wonder how screaming us so useless, especially on things such as redemption onos to take a weak option to highlight. The redemption onos will dissapear within a gore or two of a marine...scream will make that up to half a dozen gores...that's useless against HA? Against a good HA team it's still useful (though that redemption onos example goes out the window, he'd be dead)
<b>The siege issue</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Depending on your use. Closing off half the map with a siege defended tfarm with a pg and some men minimises risk and maximises gain.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The lerk only stops marines welding it back up, they're not base smashers.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This simply doesn't make sense to me. How does closing off one half of the map make you safe from sieging the hive right in front of you?
It doesn't, Siege tactics are risky and require good coherent teamwork. This teamwork should pay off, and should give the aliens trouble if set up right and set up well. It shouldn't work against them as it does when a lerk comes along and spores the team working team all together and kills them all after 10 seconds of building, leaving the outpost to be defended by the two marines that manage to phase in after spawning before the PG goes down. Of course welding anything takes considerably longer than the 11 seconds it takes to die. While a lerk may not destroy a base, it renders it a no-mans land for a while at worst, and just a marine no-go area at best.
I don't see how a viable tactic is allowed to be so devestated by one man, where skulks are allowed to actually hang back, even take their time getting to the base, because one alien acually devestates the area.
Unfortunately that to me isn't teamwork, thats one player doing a big job and the rest sort of cleaning up.
And I reitterate, Siege bases only work in close proximities to the hive location...it's not a case of where I think they should be going up, it's a case of the only place that they can go up and have the effect desired. If you want to show me a place I can siege feedwater from my base though in bast, well I'd like to hear it <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<b>Aliens for Newbies</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"Onos is easy to use? Right..."
Compared to the fade and skulk? Certainly.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Compared to the fade, yes. The Skulk is easier to use effectively than the onos without harming your team. New players going onos do two things, 1) munch a marine, 2) die. New players going onos waste 100 res an awful lot of the time. New players going skulk have less of a learning curve per res cost.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->the point I was making is that the new players can get to grips with the game without affecting the game for other players. Thusly new players are seamlessly integrated into the game..... instead of giving them purposefully harder classes to use and just telling them "get over it, learn and adapt, run your own server and practice".
Easy, and gradual. <snip> Support classes are largely boring to the newbie, and not entry level. Fades are not entry level, skulks are barely entry level. Onos takes a while to hoard for and is easier to use assuming you follow the new player credo of eat and camp.
Multiplayer games that involve crippling your play just to help the new players are flawed. We were all new once - would people find it easier to learn Lerk or Fade? NS is exceptional (imho) in that new players can jump right in with the oldies and noone is treading on anyone else's toes.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes there is an entry level "class", it's called marines. If you're new you go marines, you watch you learn how your enemies attack, you get into the game that way. Then you go and learn how to skulk (seeming that is the alien you'll be most needed to use), which isn't half as hard as you seem to be making out. The lerk is not entry level, and any player going to the lerk thinking "right, from here I can learn the game" is just kidding themselves and hurting their team.
NS has a learning curve, one that can be lessened if new players go marines first to watch as well as play, but a learning curve that is sharp to begin with none the less. Offering an easy out option is not the way to help, and the lerk should certainly not be the easy out option.
Support isn't hard to use and it isn't boring...but that depends on the player, and not all new players will be bored of support, or not want to learn it. My point made against you here is that you're arguing that new players actually not having an easy option out of playing a team game is *good* for that game.
New players can play alongside old ones very easily as skulks, marines of many kinds, and to a degree onos (though not quite as much as you claim). They don't need a lerk class that has this stupidly overpowered level 2 ability to be dumped in to. It's just like saying "ok, well you're new...and I want you to play...but you're going in this group where your meager and newbie skills will have their maximum effect...and if the game is lucky you'll learn to progress from that...but at least our game isn't ruined if you never learn." Which, to be honest, is exactly how your argument is coming off. Harsh as that sounds, it's the only way I can actually read it <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I've a negative outlook on the bulk of players who think that that magic gorge fairy will build everything for them. Second, I don't see how putting a perfectly capable offensive class in the same role will somehow encourage them to go support. On the contrary, its one more job for the gorge teamplayer to take care of. If 4 out of 5 aliens were non-offensive support classes, where do you think the majority of players would be? Teamplayers would be struggling to cover 4 roles, while the glory boys would be saving for the attack class.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No way! if anything taking the lerks offensive weaponry out of first hive will mean the kill hungry newbies go back to learning how to skulk <b>as they should be doing at that stage</b>. If they want to support they can learn the lerk or the gorge. I know thats how I played, I learnt how to skulk along side learning (and watching) gorge play. Changing the lerk won't add more to the gorges workload, it'll actually lessen it, as it'll mean that the offensive skulks don't need a gorge nearby, but a lerk. Defensive lerks will still need a gorge, but then thats the way it should be, right?
The game does allow for new players, just not intollerant ones to teamplay. I never touched Lerk until I was competant with the Skulk...why then is it so impossible for new players to try learning the base class of aliens, rather than a better one? I put to you that it isn't, lerks in 1.04 didn't have area denial and plenty of people learnt the game perfectly well as marines and skulks. The fact any joe bloggs can go and spore like an idiot is in 2.0 doesn't change the fact the skulks are as easy to learn as they ever were, if not easier! Answer me, why should people be learning how to lerk before they learn to skulk, isn't that just like learning to run before you can walk in game terms?
Some people won't do this, they'll always be newbies, but those people are kind of outside the scope of this discussion, as nothing will ever be done to help them. (but then you've said this too)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Secondly, if the balance is restricted to "Marines have LA LMG, Aliens have Skulks with LMG damage parasite", that is where each side has identical strengths only in reskins or new models, then you've bled out everything that makes NS what it is.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not saying make aliens equal to marines, nor have I implied it...all I've said is lift this curtain of dominance that a lerk can spell and allow the marines some freedom again. Games without lerks are ones where the games are harder to call...this should be the way of the game...it shouldn't be called in the first 5 minutes. The game will allow for inexperiance regardless of where spore is or if it even exists.
<b>Changing the abilities order for lerk</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you nerf in the pursuit of perfect balance, then yes it DOES change for the worse. And experienced players end up with the problem of overly simplified gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well I was just putting a case in point, and I still don't claim that the change is a nerf, it is just a change. What the lerk will lose in one place, it'll gain in another.
A nerf is something like making the skulk slower (in 2.0-2.01 terms with celerity), making the fade cost more, making the hive cost 40 res instead of 35.
Now, firstly have these simplified the game? They've made it easier for marines, yes...but one thing that ease has done as added some diversity and breathing room for marines to do a little more than they could in 2.0...it's not made their game simple. It certainly hasn't simplified the alien game!
Secondly, moving spores WOULD make the marine start game a little easier regardless of the number of lerks...thats for sure. However what it does do is mean that bases probably won't last long at hive 1 if they're already up...marines will have to shift their emphasis from working to build a base to working to keep it. Is this simpler? I don't think so, I think it's just shifting the load around personally.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If we keep nerfing it make it easier for marines to use obsolete strats, then eventually it boils down to a very boring game where marines do anything and perhaps 50% of the time it works. It becomes a coin toss, because everything is beaten down to a "perfect balance".... a perfect balance of course relying on nothing but CHANCE.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Unfortunately your replacement is nowhere near as effective as the area denial that the lerk is designed for. So you are nerfing it - nerfing it purely because its doing its job.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To be frank, this is rubbish. Adding more diversity to the marine game doesn't make it a game of chance. Taking out diversity does that. Having marine teams with one long game strat and one short game strat means that most games in 2.0 are decided by which side gets the better players. Having more strategies, even those "outdated" ones as you like to call them ( <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> ), doesn't make it a coin toss, what it means is the marines can adapt to the aliens plans as much as the aliens can currently adapt to the marines plan (singular).
Taking out lerk spore from hive one so that the marines have a little choice about what to do doesn't mean that the marines have a certain win, it means the aliens need to work a little more at taking marine res than just building their own with their little oc nests to boot. It doesn't mean that the aliens are being nerfed, it just means that something wrong with the game is being lost. You like the "area of denial" that spores give...I personally think the "area of denial" is one main reason why aliens have far too much of an edge in some games and little in another.
Whats amazing to me is that you berate me for trying to open the marines up with tactics that they should have available (despite the fact they were used to varying effect in 1.04), yet you defend so stoically the spores because that is the way the game is right now and that shouldn't change?
Even if moving the spore ability *were* a nerf, it wouldn't be because it's doing it's job, it'd be because it is doing it's job and more, and doing both far too efficiently to be balanced in game. You claim Area denial is it's key role, it's not. The lerks key role IS support. The little guerilla bit (probably still tacked on from 1.0+) is an aside, and lerks were never used until hive 2 in 1.04 (not if the aliens had sense anyway). Lerks were then used as support. Now, from what I read, lerks were being attacking far too much...so they were weakened, and made so that they couldn't be so offensive. Now I don't know what the devs word on it right now is...but thats what I read around before 2.0 came out...and so it strikes me as a bit odd that people like yourself are so vehemently arguing for the lerks offensive ability...when at EVERY point I've seen of the games life, the lerk has been primarily support...KEY ROLE SUPPORT...
I went lerk the other day, on eclipse, and I walked into their base in the closest part to their IP's...I spored and spiked only, and I'd built 3 DC's before hand outside. I didn't die for a good 10 minutes, and i racked up just short of 20 kills. The marines that ignored me walked out of their base with enough health lost to need 2 medpacks (this I heard a couple of times) or died to my spikes, the marines that kept rushing me lost their life to spikes and spores.
Now, when I can get that far into a base and cause a menace (there were turrets by the way, they did nothing enough to hamper my advance and retreat...so there goes that theory), how are maps like tanith so safe from lerks at the base? Thats right, they're not.
<b>Despite however much you want to believe it</b> the commander can build as safely as he likes, his marines will still be affected to the degree of at least a third to half of the map being restricted from them...by one lerk and his spores. this is supposedly balanced?
How do you counter this? I've seen marines ignore this and go the other way...but in 2.0 they are merely put on the back foot if they do so. They can take the lerk head on, lose a lot of res to the aliens and not gain any ground. Marines want to counter the lerk at base and manage to get a phase base outside...anywhere. In your opinion it would be some...area that manages to somehow (despite vents and such) cut off half the map from the aliens. a lerk turns up (a second one) and neutralises that area and stops the marines from doing anything from the moment they go through the phase gate.
Now if the lerk doesn't come, the marines get through...all that happens then is that place becomes and extension of the base, another place that can be cut off by a lerk...the problem continues.
If spores are a brick wall, then we're living in the 1980's and we can call this berlin, because frankly...there isn't any getting around the problem spores give in balance...just waiting it out until it crumbles. By then, of course, the game is already lost. But hey, at least we're not letting in any of those old strats, and at least the game is freakily balanced in a way we never see...where the over powering start game is so powerful it all but protects itself from being useless in the end game <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well its sort of like explaining gravity as part of superstring theory, but you really have to be there, tbh.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nah, it's more like going up to someone and saying "excuse me mate, I want to fight you, but you're not allowed to hit me for a whole minute, in which time I'm allowed to hit yuo at my leisure. After that minute though, I'll tie my hands behind my back" The point is that the guy that isn't allowed to hit in the first minute will be knocked out before the 1st minute is up in most circumstances...so what use is the stipulation that the other guy won't hit him at all after that minute?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"are you afraid of taking steps that mean less influence of one player and more need for teamwork?"
Real mature. What you suggest is equivalent to removing sieges and instead suggesting that marines use "normal" turrets as it "promotes strategic placement".<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No I'm not. One thing here that breaks your comparison is that siege needs teamwork to put up...so it's entirely different. If it took a team of skulks with a lerk to spore slightly effectively, then this thread wouldn't be going on like this either.
<b>General Balance</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Question, and answer. Marine expansion is easier to pull off, meaning that marines get to their endgame tech a lot faster, meaning the game balance is certainly not what it currently is. Lets not forget that the great strength of marines is their tech ability, and that their tech abilities are BALANCED by their inferior res capping ability.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marine expansion is HARDER to pull off than aliens actually. Marines need less res points, this is the balancing issue. They don't get as many res points, but they don't need as many as a result.
Marines res is much more vulnerable that alien res, as alien res can be suitably guarded from one marine or two simply by alert skulks (ie every public server) One or two skulks however will mean that a single marine res node without marines in the immediate vicinity will be destroyed almost certainly. At hive two you can kiss any non-turret defended res point goodbye too. The res needed to secure a single marine res point from one alien is far greater than aliens. But again, this is balanced by the fact marines need less res points.
The imbalance present in 2.0-2.01d comes into its own with the fact marines can't expand fast enough to get those key few res right now, as well as aliens getting res up and defended too fast...and lerks are a part of that problem. Taking lerk spore out of the equation will change little on the marine res front, and probably little on the alien res front...it will however offer a little more freedom to the marines. You act as though this is a catastrohpe, as if the marines having a bit of a chance to get some res is a death sentance for marines...when in reality it'll just mean the aliens don't change much and the marines get a bit more of a go of it.
Aliens should be CONSTANTLY taking down marine res, if the marines get it up faster, it shouldn't make any difference, it just means the aliens need to be a bit more vigilent.
In your world, it seems that there is 0% chance of skulks doing this, in my world it happens on 75-80% of the games played.
<b>Where Lerks are replaced by skulks</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"Firstly we're talking public games, so that should explain for one why the lerk needs to be changed to help marines in these cases."
Yet you say its role will be filled by clan standard skulk players. So instantly we can see a split. In pub games, the experienced player goes comm and thus knows about lerks. If its a new player, he'll ideally learn quickly that rushing a skulk is like building an OC beside a Siege turret.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And the alien team needs an antiexpansion weapon in the same manner that the siege cripples chamber expansion.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, I'm saying it's role will be filled by normal skulks that act a little more for the team than they do now on some servers, and exactly as they do now on other servers. you have a very negative view of skulks, one I can't see any justification for.
It might take one clan level skulk to stop four marines from moving to a point, but 2-3 average skulks will deal with those same guys adequettely depending on circumstance...both depend enough on circumstance though.
The alien anti-expansion weapon has been, and always will be, the mass of skulks with good communication. Aliens don't need a specific anti-expansion weapon to go along with their entire basic nature. Aliens expand well enough without negating marine expansion so greatly.
In Pub games the comm has more to worry about than a lerk...and in a lot of cases getting to a point superceeds the risk of a skulk attacking you.
A skulk (or more to the point, a small team of skulks that get together on command) can do the job just as well as a lerk does in area denial. They're fast enough to do it, and they're strong enough. The difference here is that the lerk needs not use hive sight, the skulks do.
One is in tune with the alien pathos, one isn't. I'll leave it up to you to work out <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No, lerks are the most effective counter to marine expansion. Period. 3 skulks? 2 more players than one lerk. With an inferior ranged attack. So with respect skulks will NEVER match the lerk. Two packs of three skulks cover two points on the map, and generally suffer casualties. Two lerks can cover two points on the map, suffer no casualties, and allow the other 4 to gorge up rts and chambers. Yes, I think we can see the difference.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lol, yes, one is immensely imbalanced, and one is in tune with the way aliens should be playing and is balanced <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Those two points...maybe two area's right outside the marine base? great! game over! Aliens are getting res and two lerks are caging marines in...woo hoo! This is balance because those lerks will lose their advantage when the marines get enough res to get HA's (in 40 minutes time)!
Area denial should be balanced off with expansion of your own race. you shouldn't be able to both totally deny area (in this case the whole map) and expand and take res freely.
If the only way of area denial was skulks and gorges...then you have balance. you can cage the marines in...but you pay for it with lack of expansion. you can expand, but you pay for it by letting marines expand...in which case your skulks need to make sure that they are taking out that res soon. You can mix the both, deny one third of the map with a good placement of OC's with skulk support, and get adequette res expansion to get enough income to survive.
What you shouldn't be able to do is both. Yes one lerk right now can do the job of 3-4 skulks...thats as good a reason as any to change them.
<b>The gorge bit</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Second, teamwork is present on the servers - just people don't go gorge. They can be exceptional fades, or lerks, but the trick is getting them to gorge up a chamber. And making the lerk support is only going to dump another role on the teamplayers who WILL go gorge.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And I repeat, this is not happening on the servers I am on, there are always enough gorges doing their job unless it's stupid hours of the day. You may have felt my comment was insulting, but for real, if your server is that bad currently that people don't go gorge but demand so much, you really should change servers...your problems you go on about with gorges I honestly have rarely if ever seen.
<b>To end...</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Let go of the past.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let go of the present. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
-Lee
And you counted how many words in the essay....lets form a love tryst. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
-Lee
Well it deffinately took at least 2 hours to write my reply <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo-->
-Lee
Is that the word count? Crikey. Must be the university essays, I guess.
Tho for speed I agree its time to start chopping out the dead wood. Kudos to whoever is reading the long posts out of curiousity, but for your benefit and enjoyment I'll make things as concise as I can. (afternote - sadly its still insanely long, sorry!)
<b>Start Game Tactics</b>
"Personally I don't agree on the whole concept you have runnign there."
Okies, what we have is a fundamental difference of concept that will not be changed. Though I will add that I'm of the opinion that res for kills can be overlooked for strategic gain (meaning you rush the marine spawn, lose your entire team but manage to take the CC down. You lose, reswise, but its gg).
Are the aliens designed for rapid expansion but hindered by relatively low tech? Is that their purpose? Its all in the minds of the devs.
<b>Marine Tactics</b>
"The reason I don't agree with this sentiment is because sieging a hive, or hoarding res for tech (though obviously not without excessive work for securing res) should be viable tactics. The trouble that I see with your arguments on this matter is they seem to be trying to say that marines should be rushing and should be attacking? You don't think that siege tactics are meant to be viable, or small expansion and res hoarding?"
Marines are weighted against defensive res hoarding. As such I don't think the hive siege is a viable tactic, nor should it be. IMHO the siege is very much an area denial weapon, keeping kharaa out of an area (aliens are much easier to kill without their chambers, I'm sure you agree). Too many comms seem reliant on letting the siege do all the work in the game.
Granted, sieging works at endgame but only when the odds are stacked in marine favour (and when the odds are stacked, any strat can win).
"I hate people that want to go back to 1.04. However I don't see why 2.0 marines should suffer losing strats and not gain any new ones. Currently marines rarely can pull off a siege based tactic thanks to the lerk...it's not to do with placement, it's simply to do with the lerk."
IMHO thats the intended progression of the marine game - a more offensive commando team designed to break the kharaa quickly. Am I right in my conception? Again its in the mind of the devs. We probably disagree over our perceptions here.
"Should marines only have two viable tactics?"
IMHO the aliens only have one tactic - attack. Its very easy to pidgeonhole strats. It may look (to you) like two viable strats but the methods to achieve them are varied. And wholly dependent on the alien counters.
"The tactics are there, they never disappeared. We're not talking about turning the game into 1.04 here, we're talking about maintaining diversity of marine tactics."
They're there, but they're obsolete or restricted. By design, IMHO. The restriction comes about as the dev team remove overpowered or abusive strats and boost the strategy side. Again, my perception. If you can win by following any strat, then the only option left to you is to tilt the game so that certain strats do not work.
"Do you play marines enough to see how boring the marine game gets with so little diversity? (honest question)."
Honest answer? I played enough to get frustrated with nonexistant teamplay. I do still play marines, but only with a competent team (competent comms are nice but I prefer squad buddies - its fun even when we lose). You will note that the growing trend of uncooperative Kharaa players is causing the same frustration.
Third Hive Abilities
"we're only talking about HA teams here"
I was referring to general third hive abilities. If we move to specifics, obviously some abilities will fare better than others. Xeno for example is excellent for catching JPs, tho almost worthless against HA.
"Against HA all the third hive abilities are pants"
Because most useful HA abilities appear at hive 2 - otherwise the 1 hive lockdown would be an unstoppable (unbalanced) strat.
The siege issue
"This simply doesn't make sense to me. How does closing off one half of the map make you safe from sieging the hive right in front of you?"
You'll find it easier to take a hive when aliens can't move as quickly. Additionally, because the aliens are choked at a single point, you are free to cap all the nodes behind your chokepoint at leisure, and without having to elec or tf any of them.
Aliens will be starved of res, so once the Onos die you'll have an easier period. Locking down a hive means they'll have 2 res nodes left than you can't get to without a hive rush (rts near hives but not IN hives can be knocked down repeatedly by marine hit'n'runs).
"This teamwork should pay off, and should give the aliens trouble if set up right and set up well."
As a tongue in cheek aside, pistol or knife rushes require teamwork - I don't think that logically means that they should be gamewinning. There are some cases where teamwork just means you die near your friends.
"While a lerk may not destroy a base, it renders it a no-mans land for a while at worst, and just a marine no-go area at best."
Which seamless fits into the lerks area denial capacity. Once you have a map sealed off, the lerks mobility is hampered, and even IF it passes the chokepoint, it can't do a lot of damage against RTs with spikes alone.
"Unfortunately that to me isn't teamwork, thats one player doing a big job and the rest sort of cleaning up."
Artillery force the enemy to keep their head down while the infantry mop up. It could be one man at the cannon, but he can kill squads of men if they rush into an artillery shell. IMHO its teamwork. Ditto the man with the GL who takes out the WoL before a hive rush.
"Siege bases only work in close proximities to the hive location"
Which I can't agree with - as a defensive structure at chokepoints they are exceptional. No MCs, no DCs, no SC if you're using your Obs properly - aliens have to run from the hive, get shot up, die, and come back. It takes a whole pack to level the TF just so they can mop up... and while that's happening a decisive hive rush can deliver a fatal blow to the alien team. A simple feint, and one that is easy for aliens to walk into because by necessity they NEED to drop the chokepoint in order to cap res.
"it's a case of the only place that they can go up and have the effect desired."
A perception issue where we differ on our concept of the siege's role. If you use the Search you can find a small thread where another poster and I discuss our differing opinion on the siege. If you wish, you may examine that for detailed reasons.
<b>Aliens for Newbies</b>
A title I disagree with, I much prefer <b>Which alien class for newbies</b>
"The Skulk is easier to use effectively than the onos without harming your team."
New onos players are good target sinks and tend to chase marines more than structures - this tends to scatter marines, allowing other players to exploit the hole in defence. While its not perfect, it IS an advantage. Compared to the skulk, where they die before entering the room. Removing the lerk, there really is no other choice for them.
"Yes there is an entry level "class", it's called marines."
Unfortunately marine strategy and cooperation differs from Kharaa strategy and cooperation. Lerks are a largely stationary and passive role, allowing a player to spend time paying attention to other things. Hiding in vents keeps the res fairly high (yes its hoarding) so you can stay lerk all game. As you gain confidence, you move to the other classes. Confidence = experimentation is a concept you must fundamentally agree with (even if you disagree with the description of the lerk) ?
"Then you go and learn how to skulk (seeming that is the alien you'll be most needed to use), which isn't half as hard as you seem to be making out."
Well tbh I see a lot of new people who find it hard to accept the quick and rapid death of the skulk - not to mention its lack of *effective* ranged weaponry (parasite only being of so much use). Not to mention the shotty, turrets, etc. The skulk involves quite a bit of new learning on the part of new players, whereas effective lerking can be learned rapidly.
"one that can be lessened if new players go marines first to watch as well as play"
With respect, playing marines can teach you precious little about the alien game. Especially if you end up on a losing run. Waypoints, orders, none of that is mirrored by the aliens. You don't even learn how to take down a TF as a marine - you just learn that 5 minutes ago you had a base and now its gone.
"Offering an easy out option is not the way to help"
Its how most games (FPS, strategy, RPG) ease new people in - the generic easy to use class. Consider AvP2 - as facehugger you learn to move and hide, as chestburster you learn basic attacks on top of this, and finally as mature alien its all tied together.
People cope better with a gentler learning curve.
"ok, well you're new...and I want you to play...but you're going in this group where your meager and newbie skills will have their maximum effect...and if the game is lucky you'll learn to progress from that...but at least our game isn't ruined if you never learn."
"Which, to be honest, is exactly how your argument is coming off. Harsh as that sounds, it's the only way I can actually read it"
Its a rather exaggerated interpretation of my view. From gaming experience on many platforms I can tell you that the worst games to learn are ones where experienced players have to dumb down their game for the new people. If the game is crippled by new players, you instantly create a tiered system where old players will ALWAYS blame the new player.
--You're new... I want you to play and enjoy yourself... but being fade and gorge are a bit tricky and people will flame you when you screw up, so here's an easier class where you limited NS experience will have its maximum effect. And if you're willing to learn you'll progress from that. And if you're a llama our game isn't ruined--
Bearing in mind I am convinced that lerks aren't a negatively overpowered problem for marines.
"if anything taking the lerks offensive weaponry out of first hive will mean the kill hungry newbies go back to learning how to skulk as they should be doing at that stage."
Unfortunately it puts massive pressure onto inexperienced players. Its an extreme form of selection and means that unless you're good, you can't play. With marines, you can be average and still enjoy the game because of sheer FPS experience. "average" skulks will require a higher level of play than marines. Lerks are by compariso easy to use, keep the player hooked into the game, and give him the confidence to experiment.
Secondly, nothing will help kill hungry players. They will ALWAYS be kill hungry.
"why then is it so impossible for new players to try learning the base class of aliens, rather than a better one?"
Not impossible - harder. I played AvP, Gold, AvP2 and its expansion, so I took to skulk like a duck to water. I'm not everyone, and I'd wager the sheer bulk of gamers out there may never have got to grips with the Alien class. They may never have bought AvP. Sure, SOME of us have, but I like to think that NS is a TEAMPLAY scifi mod, rather than a SCIFI teamplay mod. I may be wrong but hey, that my perception.
In response to the learning issue, why did you join the NS community. I'm just curious. And what games did you play before then in the same genre? AvP people walk right into the skulk. Zerg players stick with the alien class for their obvious love of alien species. Such people cope better with a steep learning curve. I'm considering the true newbie - one who has no idea how these alien things work, has never played AvP, and has no real reason to stay in NS other than how he/she copes with the game.
"Answer me, why should people be learning how to lerk before they learn to skulk, isn't that just like learning to run before you can walk in game terms?"
I don't believe the lerk is more advanced (to use) than the skulk in game terms. It can flap (bunny hop) and it can shoot over a considerable distance with several weapons. That makes it more "standard" than a wallcrawling extreme shortrange CC beast.
"Games without lerks are ones where the games are harder to call..."
But again allow fruitless out of character strategies to work. And unbalance area denial in favour of marines, when both teams should enjoy cost-free area denial.
<b>Changing the abilities order for lerk</b>
"What the lerk will lose in one place, it'll gain in another."
Gains a support move.. when its a sniperlike area denial unit. And the alien team loses a cheap solitary area denial unit, and in return gains............. another support class. IMHO loss greater than gain.
"A nerf is something like making the skulk slower (in 2.0-2.01 terms with celerity), making the fade cost more, making the hive cost 40 res instead of 35."
Well strictly speaking those examples not nerfs, as in they're not negative game imbalancing changes. Removing cheap area denial from the kharaa game is a colossal game changer, like removing the siege (spores at hive three mean no spores at all - 3 minutes of endgame hardly counts as use)
"Now, firstly have these simplified the game?"
No, but they don't remove any strategy, only slow the pace of alien expansion. Big difference. Removing spores very much WILL affect strategy, and since it'll become a 5 min endgame tool that means the entire alien early-mid game goes out the window. Certainly not a minor tweak to building speed.
"However what it does do is mean that bases probably won't last long at hive 1 if they're already up...marines will have to shift their emphasis from working to build a base to working to keep it."
IMHO they should be working on both. Its essentially spoonfeeding commanders. Haven't figured out that placement is essential? NM, the alien counter to obvious base placement is gone. Marines SHOULD work to build a base, in fact their game revolves around finding the best chokepoints and containing the aliens. Its not meant to be "rush to hive, siege hive, rinse repeat". With lerks, two obvious bases can be kept free of marines and at the same time the alien team can cap the nodes or exploit the marine absence at BOTH bases. The cost of building an obvious base has been crippling to the marine team. Removing the lerk removes the cost of silly bases, and makes aliens work harder to counter blatant marine mistakes.
Which IMHO is flawed. When aliens screw up by hoarding, marines can capitalise quickly and efficiently (and I've seen it done more and more frequently now). It should be no different for marines.
"Adding more diversity to the marine game doesn't make it a game of chance."
Its not adding diversity though - by your own words its adding "balance". Follow it to the ultimate conclusion - where knife rushes are balanced against Onos. Thats the true definition of balance, and at that point all that remains IS chance.
Your enemy can do any strat, and it WILL work. You can do any strat, and it WILL work. So you end up with a flat 50 50.
Taking out flawed strats will decrease "diversity" but it does so by decreasing "flawed gameplay". Lets say they remove the PG camping. That's removing diversity, but at the same promotes strategy. Strategy is using a limited selection of tools to achieve any desired result- making the most of what you have. Less "diversity", more strategy. Its not about "anything will work, anything will counter".
"what it means is the marines can adapt to the aliens plans as much as the aliens can currently adapt to the marines plan (singular)."
Which makes it a coin toss. Every strategy has a flaw, something to exploit. Remove the capacity for flaws and you make it harder and harder to achieve the decisive win. Currently games are short and decisive when marines, or aliens, screw up. They can be drawn out (lets destroy the RT and wall the marines up with DC, lololol!!!oneonoeleven) but fundamentally there's a point ingame where your screwup finally kills you. When marines execute a good strategy, and aliens do likewise, then we get the long game.
"Taking out lerk spore from hive one so that the marines have a little choice about what to do doesn't mean that the marines have a certain win"
But the only increase is allowing them to do utilise foolish tactics that just should not work. Currently foolish tactics make you lose, very quickly. As a COMM, you're an experienced player, so at this point you're expected to learn and adapt. (note the difference between the hard curve for experienced players and the easy curve for new players).
"it means the aliens need to work a little more at taking marine res than just building their own with their little oc nests to boot."
Why should the aliens suffer longer games purely so that marines can do silly things? A good alien team has their game crippled because the strategy has to be dumbed down to the level of bad comms.
"yet you defend so stoically the spores because that is the way the game is right now and that shouldn't change?"
Spores fulfil a key role in the alien armoury. Somethat that cannot be EASILY imitated for the same cost. Removing them is different from a downward slide to unworthy strategies.
"You claim Area denial is it's key role, it's not. The lerks key role IS support."
The perception issue I highlighted at the top of the post. As long as we differ on our concept of the lerk's role, we will differ on the use of spore.
"The little guerilla bit (probably still tacked on from 1.0+) is an aside, and lerks were never used until hive 2 in 1.04 (not if the aliens had sense anyway)."
But 1.04 is gone, the game has moved on, we're talking about 2.0 and up. We shouldn't be discussing the outdated and irrelevant version in comparison to the current game. It has no bearing on it at all.
"Lerks were then used as support."
Well if you insist on 1.04 talk, I've also heard that Fade were tanks. Classes have changed, there's no reason to cling to what they *were*. Some humour - would it be easier if the lerk had changed its name to the dinglebat? <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> (come on, huge post, need a bit of levity)
<b>Lerk vs Base story</b>
An experienced player exploited a badly assembled base (if the turrets didn't do their job, then I'm sorry but that base was badly defended and assembled) and made massive tactical gain. Which I lay at the feet of the comm. Moreso if it had been inexperienced player exploits badly made base.
"How do you counter this?"
Concisely, by not screwing up.
"In your opinion it would be some...area that manages to somehow (despite vents and such) cut off half the map from the aliens."
Yep, its all in picking the right chokepoint.
"a lerk turns up (a second one) and neutralises that area and stops the marines from doing anything from the moment they go through the phase gate."
Why go through the phasegate? Your base is a chokepoint, designed to stop the aliens - you don't need to be there. The PG is only there to make transport easier. Secondly, because you now own half the map, you can cap all the res farrr behind your lines, while the aliens are being starved of res and finding it increasingly hard to expand. That lerk can spore all day, and perhaps get lucky and fly over the chokepoint, but that leaves him on your side with no support and no effective way to smash the place up, barring evolving to another class (and thus becoming easier to kill). At most you can worry about two lerks crossing the choke, and ONE evolving while the other covers.... but that being the case you could probably rush a hive, or kill the evolved critter and leave the lerk alone..... forcing him to wait for a new friend or evolve himself (and thus get minced).
"Nah, it's more like going up to someone and saying "excuse me mate, I want to fight you, but you're not allowed to hit me for a whole minute, in which time I'm allowed to hit yuo at my leisure. After that minute though, I'll tie my hands behind my back" The point is that the guy that isn't allowed to hit in the first minute will be knocked out before the 1st minute is up in most circumstances...so what use is the stipulation that the other guy won't hit him at all after that minute?"
Erm.... well he can run away, dodge, weave, and wait the minute out. And then once that minute is up, he has ALL HIS LIFE to beat the first (now tied up) guy to a pulp. Its an exceptional trade off.
"One thing here that breaks your comparison is that siege needs teamwork to put up...so it's entirely different."
Nope, you're talking about one object on area denial. Removing the area denial promotes "more strategic use" of the other objects. Removing the siege means marines would have to make more strategic use of everything else... much like removing the lerk. Realistically, you can't remove either, because although they are (in one way) overpowered, its because they have to be. And even now the siege becomes more like the lerk, since it involves LOS.
And IMHO it does take lerk+skulk to spore "effectively" - sporing a turret farm won't get rid of the farm, just leave it quiet. The turrets will still fire at whatever appears.
<b>General Balance</b>
"Marine expansion is HARDER to pull off than aliens actually. "
*now*, but the quote refers to the hypothetical NS without Lerk Area Denial as compared to current NS. Its not comparing marines to aliens. With expansion costing less (no medspam, turretfarms can be manned, etc) you can spend more on building RT, which gets you more res - so the balance of marines being comparatively RT starved is gone.
There's a big section which (on reading) looks like it applies to the misquote.
"The imbalance present in 2.0-2.01d comes into its own with the fact marines can't expand fast enough to get those key few res right now, as well as aliens getting res up and defended too fast...and lerks are a part of that problem."
And is countered by the chokepoint, which stops expansion and allows you to cap more res than 3-4 individual bases scattered over the map. At a choke there's probably 2 paths into it from the alien side, and one path in from the marine side. You can park at the marine side and shoot up anything and everything (because you've only one area to defend). Much better strategic position.
Taking lerk spore out..... means expansion is unhindered, rines tech up faster, and good alien teams suffer more while trying to defeat inexperienced (or set-in-their-ways) comms who insist that hoarding all res to HA, hive camping, etc should all be viable strategies.
Aliens can only base camp when they have lots of res. Its no different for marines. Aliens who hoard to onos get to enjoy an erratic life of attack-redeem shortly before their hives get totalled in short order. Its the same for HA hoarding marines. Certain strategies should not work, and bad strategies get punished very quickly.
Aliens should be CONSTANTLY taking down marine res, if the marines get it up faster, it shouldn't make any difference, it just means the aliens need to be a bit more vigilent.
"In your world, it seems that there is 0% chance of skulks doing this, in my world it happens on 75-80% of the games played."
Again, you've confused my hypothetical lerkfree NS quote with real NS.
<b>Where Lerks are replaced by skulks</b>
"No, I'm saying it's role will be filled by normal skulks that act a little more for the team than they do now on some servers, and exactly as they do now on other servers."
Skulks are far harder to use for area denial than a lerk will ever be, and in a prior post you stated that clan standard skulks can take care of marine packs. Which led to the statement about a two tiered system. Its not a negative view of the skulk, its a negative view of the skulk <b>in terms of area denial compared to the lerk</b>. A lerk is for solo area denial - this allows other aliens to get on with expansion. Teamplay is an irrelevancy here. It doesn't matter if two or two hundred skulks can do the same job - lerks can do it alone. And that cannot be replaced by moving spore.
"The alien anti-expansion weapon has been, and always will be, the mass of skulks with good communication."
No, thats how you kill marines. Killing marines won't necessarily stop expansion - if 6 skulks rush 6 marines and 2 marines are left standing, then expansion has not been stopped. Lerks can stall marines singlehandedly without killing them, nor being killed themselves. In return the lerk has to camp in a vent or other hiding spot, filling a stationary role and acting as portable artillery. If the marine sidestep the lerk, it becomes useless - whereas its harder to sidestep a dozen skulks closing from all directions. A group of skulks who *will* suffer casualities...... or one biologically adapted area denial unit. As a parallel, one fits in better with evolutionary theory and the alien pathos.... the other does not.
"Aliens expand well enough without negating marine expansion so greatly."
Not really - alien expansion is rapid in current NS because they don't build up their rts, and 6 aliens can cap 6 at game start all at once. If aliens were forced to build OC at rts, then expansion would be slower. OCing up areas is something they would *have* to do in order to approach lerk area denial. So expansion is seriously crippled. Those 6 rts become 2 rts and four OCs.
"In Pub games the comm has more to worry about than a lerk.."
And rightly so - its as terrifying as a chokepoint hampering alien mobility. Chokepoints stop you getting to other hives, and taking them is usually futile (definitely futile when you've got effectively 4 mini rt bases crammed into one big fat choke).
"Lol, yes, one is immensely imbalanced, and one is in tune with the way aliens should be playing and is balanced"
The kharaa being survivalists, its outright stupid of them NOT to have an area denial unit. Secondly the lerk IS balanced, its offensive strength is nil endgame, its largely sedentary, and its easier to avoid than 3 skulks. The skulk is equally balanced - its offensive strength is constant, its fast moving, and hard to avoid. However on its own it can't achieve area denial - The lerk can.
"Those two points...maybe two area's right outside the marine base? great! game over! Aliens are getting res and two lerks are caging marines in...woo hoo! This is balance because those lerks will lose their advantage when the marines get enough res to get HA's (in 40 minutes time)!"
Yep, in the same sense that marines get two choke areas, cap all the res on the map, then blatter all three hives while the aliens hoard to get Onos (in 40 minutes time). Most alien players have figured out the aggression wins NS games, marine players are consistently cautious.
"Area denial should be balanced off with expansion of your own race. you shouldn't be able to both totally deny area (in this case the whole map) and expand and take res freely."
Unfortunately thats unrealistic - buffer zones are essential in wars. Without a buffer zone, you feel the pinch of enemy attacks sooner, you have less time to counterattack, and consolidation is suicidal since the enemy is right on your doorstep.
"Yes one lerk right now can do the job of 3-4 skulks...thats as good a reason as any to change them."
One lerk can do the job of 3-4 skulks <b>in area denial only</b>. Outside of area denial, skulks will do better.
<b>The gorge/lerk mirror bit</b>
"your problems you go on about with gorges I honestly have rarely if ever seen."
Cut gorge, insert lerk <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Your comparison to v1 is flawed, as we are discussing two very different games. I think, from the posts, that our fundamental differences concern the lerk's role and the strategies used by marines.
Other than back & forth posting, the only real solution is to find what the devs intended. I imagine it to be a little bit of both our viewpoints?
5,033 words. So much for concise. I need some tea.
Nice debating with you...now I have to fill out job applications... <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
-Lee
<!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Damn low refresh rate of my work comp made that essay BURN my EYES
No, better, a myth, a legend, an epic <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Still, it was, among some of the really interesting topic I've read, one of my favorite <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->