"In 1961, the US Supreme Court defined it was a religion, endorsing the fact that, although it denies the existence of God, it is a carefully structured belief system. The core of that system is the bizarre conviction that man exists by accident and will end in annihilation, but in that brief blip separating the two he is of immense value and dignity and bears important rational and ethical responsibility. The humanist believes that he comes from nothing and is going nowhere, yet insists that the journey itself is of monumental significance. Small wonder that R. C. Sproul calls modern secular humanism 'one of the stupidist beliefs ever concocted' (R. C. Sproul, Table Talk, Oct 1993, Ligonier)" (John Blanchard, Does God believe in Athiests, a conclusion at the end of a 25 page chapter on why humanism is wrong.)
"In 1961, the US Supreme Court defined it was a religion, endorsing the fact that, although it denies the existence of God, it is a carefully structured belief system. The core of that system is the bizarre conviction that man exists by accident and will end in annihilation, but in that brief blip separating the two he is of immense value and dignity and bears important rational and ethical responsibility. The humanist believes that he comes from nothing and is going nowhere, yet insists that the journey itself is of monumental significance. Small wonder that R. C. Sproul calls modern secular humanism 'one of the stupidist beliefs ever concocted' (R. C. Sproul, Table Talk, Oct 1993, Ligonier)" (John Blanchard, Does God believe in Athiests, a conclusion at the end of a 25 page chapter on why humanism is wrong.) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Ahhhh Boggle you've read it too. I loved that book. That was probably the harshest statement he made, but so true. So damn true.
so let me get this straight... a 'religion' that has it's defining principals in living a good life because it's all you have is more stupid than doing things because you want rewarded for appeasing a giant floating behemoth covered in fairy lights sitting on a cloud who apparently made you in their own image and built us all so he could give us a big hug from time to time between massive catastrophies that wipe out millions of lives o.O Actually if we were made in God's image, anyone care to explain why he has legs or arms and only one pair of each? If he's ominipotent then they serve no valuable purpose as he can manipulate the very core of reality without even twitching a finger.
Anything sounds stupid if you know how to word it right <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Let's not forget that legion's statement went and supported my own view as well as skulky pointed out <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
"God is all around me... God Loves me... God is AAAAHHH!!! IT'S DIGESTING ME!!!! ~gurgle~" <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> God loves you with pancakes and a cool glass of orange juice =3
"In 1961, the US Supreme Court defined it was a religion, endorsing the fact that, although it denies the existence of God, it is a carefully structured belief system. The core of that system is the bizarre conviction that man exists by accident and will end in annihilation, but in that brief blip separating the two he is of immense value and dignity and bears important rational and ethical responsibility. The humanist believes that he comes from nothing and is going nowhere, yet insists that the journey itself is of monumental significance. Small wonder that R. C. Sproul calls modern secular humanism 'one of the stupidist beliefs ever concocted' (R. C. Sproul, Table Talk, Oct 1993, Ligonier)" (John Blanchard, Does God believe in Athiests, a conclusion at the end of a 25 page chapter on why humanism is wrong.) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Coming from a bunch of bible-thumpers, I'd expect nothing less than such an ignorant statement. It reflects poorly upon those who made the statement and those who quote it.
Humanism takes all of the useful parts of theism... namely the ethical and moral standards one should abide by... and removes all of the crap about a supreme deity. A humanist behaves just like a Christian, except they do not live their lives anticipating some kind of reward in the end. Thus they are able to free their minds for thinking about science without the impossible constraints of religion.
"In 1961, the US Supreme Court defined it was a religion, endorsing the fact that, although it denies the existence of God, it is a carefully structured belief system. The core of that system is the bizarre conviction that man exists by accident and will end in annihilation, but in that brief blip separating the two he is of immense value and dignity and bears important rational and ethical responsibility. The humanist believes that he comes from nothing and is going nowhere, yet insists that the journey itself is of monumental significance. Small wonder that R. C. Sproul calls modern secular humanism 'one of the stupidist beliefs ever concocted' (R. C. Sproul, Table Talk, Oct 1993, Ligonier)" (John Blanchard, Does God believe in Athiests, a conclusion at the end of a 25 page chapter on why humanism is wrong.) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Coming from a bunch of bible-thumpers, I'd expect nothing less than such an ignorant statement. It reflects poorly upon those who made the statement and those who quote it.
Humanism takes all of the useful parts of theism... namely the ethical and moral standards one should abide by... and removes all of the crap about a supreme deity. A humanist behaves just like a Christian, except they do not live their lives anticipating some kind of reward in the end. Thus they are able to free their minds for thinking about science without the impossible constraints of religion. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> i see i touched a nerve there...
we may be a "bunch of bible-thumpers", but that doesnt detract from the truth of the statement.
Generally calling people stupid tends to touch a nerve in most people boggle <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
but, if we are nothing more than the result of millions of accidents, how can we have these values? Why do you love someone if they are just a big cosmic fluke, just like you? Why should i not go out and kill everyone?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->calls modern secular humanism 'one of the stupidist beliefs ever concocted' <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't post things like that if you wish to avoid touching nerves. I could very easily post a thousand opinions... not facts... about how ridiculous Christianity is and I would expect you to come to its defense. You posted an opinion; that does not make it any more true than if I said "Christianity is a tool for herding weak, stupid people."
My morals are based on the belief that we as a species have evolved to such a high level that we are no longer governed by the laws of evolution. We have overcome that obstacle... natural selection... and are now capable of wiping out the majority of life on this planet. The only way for life on the Earth to survive this human plague is for the humans themselves to wake up from this religious trance they are in and realize that there is NOT an everlasting life after this one, and this single trip on Earth is the only one we've got.
There isn't going to be a second coming that will spell Armageddon for the planet. <b>That will never happen.</b> We have to stop thinking like that. The only way that can happen is through peaceful reasoning and cooperation. In a society of billions, that requires a high degree of selflessness. In order to overcome the human plague, we must abolish our religious tenets and start repairing the damage we have done to this planet. If left to continue on the path we are headed right now, humans are going to overwhelm this planet and do irreversible damage. Many would argue that it's too late, but I don't think it is. In order to reverse the trend, science must provide ways for us to repair the damage so we may peacefully co-exist with the rest of life here. If we fail to achieve that, then humans will be obliterated from this planet in short order. Since we are the most advanced lifeform to ever exist here, that would be a travesty of gigantic proportions.
EpidemicDark Force GorgeJoin Date: 2003-06-29Member: 17781Members
Funnily enough, I dont feel like we're the most advanced lifeform when I go play NS <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Anyway, while I do agree with some of your points, I dont think we're rid of natural selection yet. Natural selection is about to adapt to an enviroment, something which we are not rid of yet (especially not when we start to colonize other planets)
<!--QuoteBegin--Epidemic+Oct 15 2003, 10:52 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Epidemic @ Oct 15 2003, 10:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Anyway, while I do agree with some of your points, I dont think we're rid of natural selection yet. Natural selection is about to adapt to an enviroment, something which we are not rid of yet (especially not when we start to colonize other planets) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> An interesting discussion, however that's a whole other topic from this thread.
simple factor of logic boggle; you wouldn't like someone killing you so don't do it to anyone else. If you need a god to tell you this then you really are a pretty scary person =/
As for us being a big cosmic fluke, sure, what's wrong with that? In a sea of infinite possibilities all possibilities are born <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> Does love need a reason? You could go on about the science of it, the religion of it, but will it change the way you love or how it feels? Nuh-uh... they're just tinkering toy reasons for amusing curiosity. They don't define your life or morals unless you want them to and why should they?
A christian lives a life like most non-christians it only changes when they go off to church, pray or one of these arguements crops up. You still walk the same streets you walked before you 'found god', you still probably eat the same food. Some people just need a spiritual crutch I suppose, but only some of us... I'm starting to agree with the response someone came up with earlier; Even if I found proof of God it wouldn't mean I'd worship it. My life is fine and dandy without some heavenly amoeba watching me take a shower, whether it actually exists or, in my belief, not.
You know the term 'cosmic fluke' makes me think of this music video where they had these people made up of stars... it's almost kinda sensual in a weird way ^^ Makes the term 'lucky to be alive' much more interesting either way <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
"In 1961, the US Supreme Court defined it was a religion, endorsing the fact that, although it denies the existence of God, it is a carefully structured belief system. The core of that system is the bizarre conviction that man exists by accident and will end in annihilation, but in that brief blip separating the two he is of immense value and dignity and bears important rational and ethical responsibility. The humanist believes that he comes from nothing and is going nowhere, yet insists that the journey itself is of monumental significance. Small wonder that R. C. Sproul calls modern secular humanism 'one of the stupidist beliefs ever concocted' (R. C. Sproul, Table Talk, Oct 1993, Ligonier)" (John Blanchard, Does God believe in Athiests, a conclusion at the end of a 25 page chapter on why humanism is wrong.) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Coming from a bunch of bible-thumpers, I'd expect nothing less than such an ignorant statement. It reflects poorly upon those who made the statement and those who quote it.
Humanism takes all of the useful parts of theism... namely the ethical and moral standards one should abide by... and removes all of the crap about a supreme deity. A humanist behaves just like a Christian, except they do not live their lives anticipating some kind of reward in the end. Thus they are able to free their minds for thinking about science without the impossible constraints of religion. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> i see i touched a nerve there...
we may be a "bunch of bible-thumpers", but that doesnt detract from the truth of the statement.
What do you base your morals on? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Relegion has only been used for two purposes, as a system of control by goverments, or as a security measure by people troubled by a seemingly meaningless existence. Saying that relegion sets forth a moral code people follow is silly, becuase every country has laws that are enforced by very real world punishments that wouldn't be necessary if this was true.
By relegion I mean the organized kind.
PS: There are plenty of Christians and Catholics in jail.
EpidemicDark Force GorgeJoin Date: 2003-06-29Member: 17781Members
Dr.D. You forgot one. 3)To explain things in life
Also what if god is irrationel and illogical? (makes no sense I know <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> )
<!--QuoteBegin--dr.d+Oct 15 2003, 12:02 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (dr.d @ Oct 15 2003, 12:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Relegion has only been used for two purposes, as a system of control by goverments, or as a security measure by people troubled by a seemingly meaningless existence. Saying that relegion sets forth a moral code people follow is silly, becuase every country has laws that are enforced by very real world punishments that wouldn't be necessary if this was true.
By relegion I mean the organized kind.
PS: There are plenty of Christians and Catholics in jail. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The question of belief in God is not a question of religion, but rather one of faith.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Posted by Me on Page 5
I think what it would take for an atheist to become a believer is to realize there is a clear delineation between a "person of religion" and a "person of faith." When you look at the development of any form of religion, you'll find that it started with a small group or even a single person who believed in a similar group of ideas. As they attempted to communicate this set of ideas, they agreed on basic principles involved and how to communicate these principles. Eventually, as their set of beliefs spread, writing was the only way to maintain the consistency of the faith they were expounding. The Christians have their Bible, the Jews the Talmud, the Muslims the Quran/Koran, the Hindus the Bhagavad-Gita and so on. The key to any religion is that it was originally based on a person's/persons' faith in something greater than themselves.
It's easy to attack my religion. As a Christian, I have been known to do it myself. I'm a firm believer in church reforms and certain liberal stances regarding church policies and the church's methods of spreading the Word. However, my faith is unassailable, and it is something that guides me both in my conscious thoughts, words and actions as well as the unconscious ways I respond the environment around me. The Bible is a set of instructions for how I feel I should live my life, mostly in the New Testament. Matthew 7, Collosians 3 and several other chapters come readily to mind. The Book of Job is great inspiration for me and renews my belief that life is full of trials for us all, tailored to test us most. I've been saved since I was 16, and now I'm just over 20. I came from a family where my grandmother crammed Southern Baptist dogma down my throat and my father let me make up my own mind. I started going to church of my own accord, and was the only one in my house going while I still went. I've had my falls, quite a few of them.
But at the same time, I always turned back to faith. Attacking my faith is pointless, goes nowhere and accomplishes nothing. I've seen plenty of things that have altered the credibility of the church in my eyes, but have yet to see anything that legitimately shook my faith. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The main problem seems to be that people fail to see the difference between a set of rules, customs and traditions--namely <i>religion</i>--and the belief in something greater and more powerful than ourselves--<i>faith</i>.
And as far as the basis of the majority of criminal/penal codes, look to what is commonly called the Mosaic Code or the Torah (first five books of the old testament). This codicile is the basis for almost every major system of laws in the western world. Looking to the Muslim world, the writings of Mohammed are the same sort of influence over secular governments.
As far as establishing <i>moral</i> codes, that's exactly what they are. They are a set of moral obligations placed upon both the individual and society concerning one's conduct within one's environment and the way society should respond to breaks in those rules.
Next, Catholics <i>are</i> Christians. In fact, the Catholic church is the <i>oldest</i> sect of Christianity back to its establish by St. Peter.
Lastly, expecting perfection and righteousness out of every Christian is absurd. We have our stumbles too. I didn't lose my virginity till <i>after</i> I was saved because I chose to ignore what God wanted me to do with my life and did quite a few stupid things. Christians are human beings just like everyone else when it comes to having emotions, passions, and problems associated with the regulation of both. And I'd also like to see some statistics put forth from the US and other countries with high Christian populations regarding crime rates, prison population demographics, and the delineation between those that have been saved while they were in prison or were professed saved Christians before they comitted their crimes.
Lastly, take the Irish Republican Army. There have been massive amounts of violence perpetrated by thise group, the Provisional IRA and others just over being a Protestant or Catholic. This sort of extremism is no more legitimately Christian than fundamentalist Muslim terrorists are legitimately mainstream Muslims. There are always radicals who bastardize the teachings of great men.
<!--QuoteBegin--dr.d+Oct 15 2003, 06:02 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (dr.d @ Oct 15 2003, 06:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Relegion has only been used for two purposes, as a system of control by goverments, or as a security measure by people troubled by a seemingly meaningless existence. Saying that relegion sets forth a moral code people follow is silly, becuase every country has laws that are enforced by very real world punishments that wouldn't be necessary if this was true.
By relegion I mean the organized kind.
PS: There are plenty of Christians and Catholics in jail. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> yes, and Adolf Hitler justified the mass murder of the jews with evolution, he saw it as improving the human race, becuase they were defective. There is always going to be someone twisting the message of anything. If you are going to say that religion is bad because it is used to control people, i will say evolution is bad because it caused the death of millions of jews.
<!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Oct 15 2003, 12:58 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Oct 15 2003, 12:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--dr.d+Oct 15 2003, 06:02 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (dr.d @ Oct 15 2003, 06:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Relegion has only been used for two purposes, as a system of control by goverments, or as a security measure by people troubled by a seemingly meaningless existence. Saying that relegion sets forth a moral code people follow is silly, becuase every country has laws that are enforced by very real world punishments that wouldn't be necessary if this was true.
By relegion I mean the organized kind.
PS: There are plenty of Christians and Catholics in jail. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> yes, and Adolf Hitler justified the mass murder of the jews with evolution, he saw it as improving the human race, becuase they were defective. There is always going to be someone twisting the message of anything. If you are going to say that religion is bad because it is used to control people, i will say evolution is bad because it caused the death of millions of jews. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually Adolf Hitler believed Aryans were God's people and all other races were inferior because God shunned them, same as to why he wanted cripples dead not because of evolution (and if you are going to drag evolution into every single thread I might have to start ignoring you). Some claim he was an athiest but there's evidence of him being Christian. He certainly used propaganda to control his country, and if it was relegious in nature....well refer to my previous point.
As far as relegion being twisted by extremists, I think when something gets used as an excuse for murder and carnage enough times then you have to give some consideration as to why it is so easily manipulated.
Rat actually made a valid refute as to why relegion relegion might be seen as a moral prescedant, but you claiming there can be no morals other than Christian morals is more than annyoing. By your logic Hindus and Pagans are out slaughtering people by the hundreds and raping women on sight.
<!--QuoteBegin--Rat+Oct 15 2003, 11:24 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rat @ Oct 15 2003, 11:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The main problem seems to be that people fail to see the difference between a set of rules, customs and traditions--namely <i>religion</i>--and the belief in something greater and more powerful than ourselves--<i>faith</i>. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It sounds like you have separated faith from religion very well. Unfortunately, I would say the vast majority of people on this planet, whether they be Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, or [insert_your_religion_here] have failed to separate the religious dogma preached to them from the supreme being aspect. This is because faith is not presented outside of religion. Or if it is, it surely isn't very popular, or there are no recruiting aspects to enable it to grow. To most people, separating their god from religion is impossible. Allah is different from the Christian god who is different from the Judaic god in many people's eyes. Belief in the god requires belief in the dogma of the religion subscribing to that god. Therein lies the problem of the Protestants vs Catholics, the Jews vs Muslims, etc. I think that might be what you're saying, correct me if I'm wrong.
For me, regardless of what dogma you wrap around it, the notion of a supreme being is simply not feasible. I prefer to take the acceptable moral and ethical virtures present in most religions and use those as my foundation. My goals in life are to repair the damage we've done to this planet and to stop the insanity of war/killing/destruction for selfish gains. To achieve those goals, I need to have those morals and live up to them, otherwise I would be imprisoned by the society I dwell in.
excuse me, I'm an athiest... I'll be right back; I need to go run someone over because I lack a moral core by not believing in the heavenly jelly blob <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
What is the point to life if it is a journey from nothing to nowhere. Its like getting in your car, drving around for a couple of years, and ending up back here. Its a pointless journey, it may as well just not have taken place.
really? wow... with that attitude you might as well not get up in the morning. It's all about this weird thing called 'life' which is made of these thousands of millions of little things called 'experiences'.
Say you're sitting in your room, but you don't know how you got there and you've never seen it before. There's a light in there with you but it's turned off and you're sitting in darkness. The only thing is, if you turn the light on its battery will keep going until it dies... you won't be able to turn it off.
Are you saying you'd never turn that light on just to even see what the room you're sitting in is like?
Are you so shackled in being a 'free-willed' puppet for a deity that you can't even see what the enjoyment of mere existence is anymore? o.O
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What is the point to life if it is a journey from nothing to nowhere. Its like getting in your car, drving around for a couple of years, and ending up back here. Its a pointless journey, it may as well just not have taken place. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you deem yourself so important that you need some kind of universal purpose? Do you honsetly think that if you and every human just dropped dead today the world wouldn't keep on turning? The universe exists despite us, not because of us.
<!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Oct 15 2003, 01:14 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Oct 15 2003, 01:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What is the point to life if it is a journey from nothing to nowhere. Its like getting in your car, drving around for a couple of years, and ending up back here. Its a pointless journey, it may as well just not have taken place. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You still seem to think life requires a purpose. Let me guess... you probably think if a tree falls in the forest and no human is around to hear it, then it probably made no sound, right? What's happening in those galaxies all throughout the Universe... things we cannot see by the naked eye yet can see via the Hubble Space Telescope? Do you think what is happening out there is pointless, since there are no humans over there? Humans are very egotistical and self-centered in their thinking about life.
Since my post, everything that's been posed, save for that of Rat and Boggle, has been some presentation of "I don't like the idea of a God ruling my life."
If life by itself, just the mere fact that we were alive was so astounding, then the only thing that we would do is sit around and marvel at our own luck. "I GOT TO BE! WOOHOO!" But that's not what humanism teaches, is it? It teaches to go out and serve other people, to lead a moral life. In other words, you look for something more fulfilling that sitting around contemplating your navals, thinking about how cool it is that you're here.
That's the one cool thing about humanism, I think. That it teaches that there is a way you can spend your life which is, in some way, more rewarding than others. There is a better way to live your life outside of self service. The real question is, who am I going to serve?
I choose to serve Christ. As it turns out, how this manifests itself isn't far from what the humanists are going for.
Matthew 25:45 <span style='color:Red'>"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'</span>
The only difference between a Humanist and a Christian is that a Christian chooses to humble himself before God. Some of you have said yourselves, if God existed, you wouldn't worship Him.
If that is the case, then the issue is not who needs a crutch, but who knows when to bow to authority.
If you don't believe in God because you can't see Him, that's another story. But saying that you'd never even nod to Him if he existed?
There's respect and helping people then there's doing stuff because mr father-figure threatened you with not getting to heaven. People only get 'authority' from me when they prove they deserve it, respect comes until they prove they're not worthy and threats like that go right in my personal 'no respect for you' book <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
In the end it's nice that people help one another selflessly... I'm all for that whatever the spiritual/non-spiritual reason, it's just when people try to tell you the reason you should be doing things (especially when it's because some big bad boss tells you to) I start getting cattish. I was brought up by open-minded parents... they neither shoved religion down my throat nor denied me it's knowledge. I wasn't christened, I was never really told anything good nor bad about religion; my parents simply provided whatever information was available for whatever I wanted to know about anything through books, experience and the knowledge of others. School, however, crammed christianity down my throat. At first i ate it up like any other kid would really but then, like I always do, I just started getting curious =P In the end I threw off christianity and went hunting through buhddism, new-age and other weird and wonderful stuff, checking what I could on the various religions and experiencing the ones that sounded right.
In the end Athiesm or maybe if you want to try and put me under it; humanism is the place I settled. Believe what you want, I've been around the block like I'm sure most of you have, but I'm happy where I am. If someone tries to convert me or tell me I'm wrong then they can only expect the same in return, both in content and in tone <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->father-figure threatened you with not getting to heaven.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's really too bad people keep presenting that view.
Acts 16:30 He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31 They (Paul and Silas)replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved--you and your household."
So, if you dont think you have a purpose, you are useless. The appendix has no purpose, i think we all agree it is useless. can i kill you? you are taking up my air, and the air of everybody else. the food that you would have eaten can be fed to starving children in africa. Everybody would be happy. why should you care? Does the appendix complain when it is removed? it is a bundle of atoms like we are isnt it? Thats what we all are, big, useless appendixes. The world would be a much better place without us.
Comments
"In 1961, the US Supreme Court defined it was a religion, endorsing the fact that, although it denies the existence of God, it is a carefully structured belief system. The core of that system is the bizarre conviction that man exists by accident and will end in annihilation, but in that brief blip separating the two he is of immense value and dignity and bears important rational and ethical responsibility. The humanist believes that he comes from nothing and is going nowhere, yet insists that the journey itself is of monumental significance. Small wonder that R. C. Sproul calls modern secular humanism 'one of the stupidist beliefs ever concocted' (R. C. Sproul, Table Talk, Oct 1993, Ligonier)" (John Blanchard, Does God believe in Athiests, a conclusion at the end of a 25 page chapter on why humanism is wrong.)
"In 1961, the US Supreme Court defined it was a religion, endorsing the fact that, although it denies the existence of God, it is a carefully structured belief system. The core of that system is the bizarre conviction that man exists by accident and will end in annihilation, but in that brief blip separating the two he is of immense value and dignity and bears important rational and ethical responsibility. The humanist believes that he comes from nothing and is going nowhere, yet insists that the journey itself is of monumental significance. Small wonder that R. C. Sproul calls modern secular humanism 'one of the stupidist beliefs ever concocted' (R. C. Sproul, Table Talk, Oct 1993, Ligonier)" (John Blanchard, Does God believe in Athiests, a conclusion at the end of a 25 page chapter on why humanism is wrong.) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ahhhh Boggle you've read it too. I loved that book. That was probably the harshest statement he made, but so true. So damn true.
Actually if we were made in God's image, anyone care to explain why he has legs or arms and only one pair of each? If he's ominipotent then they serve no valuable purpose as he can manipulate the very core of reality without even twitching a finger.
Anything sounds stupid if you know how to word it right <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Let's not forget that legion's statement went and supported my own view as well as skulky pointed out <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
"God is all around me... God Loves me... God is AAAAHHH!!! IT'S DIGESTING ME!!!! ~gurgle~" <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
God loves you with pancakes and a cool glass of orange juice =3
"In 1961, the US Supreme Court defined it was a religion, endorsing the fact that, although it denies the existence of God, it is a carefully structured belief system. The core of that system is the bizarre conviction that man exists by accident and will end in annihilation, but in that brief blip separating the two he is of immense value and dignity and bears important rational and ethical responsibility. The humanist believes that he comes from nothing and is going nowhere, yet insists that the journey itself is of monumental significance. Small wonder that R. C. Sproul calls modern secular humanism 'one of the stupidist beliefs ever concocted' (R. C. Sproul, Table Talk, Oct 1993, Ligonier)" (John Blanchard, Does God believe in Athiests, a conclusion at the end of a 25 page chapter on why humanism is wrong.) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Coming from a bunch of bible-thumpers, I'd expect nothing less than such an ignorant statement. It reflects poorly upon those who made the statement and those who quote it.
Humanism takes all of the useful parts of theism... namely the ethical and moral standards one should abide by... and removes all of the crap about a supreme deity. A humanist behaves just like a Christian, except they do not live their lives anticipating some kind of reward in the end. Thus they are able to free their minds for thinking about science without the impossible constraints of religion.
"In 1961, the US Supreme Court defined it was a religion, endorsing the fact that, although it denies the existence of God, it is a carefully structured belief system. The core of that system is the bizarre conviction that man exists by accident and will end in annihilation, but in that brief blip separating the two he is of immense value and dignity and bears important rational and ethical responsibility. The humanist believes that he comes from nothing and is going nowhere, yet insists that the journey itself is of monumental significance. Small wonder that R. C. Sproul calls modern secular humanism 'one of the stupidist beliefs ever concocted' (R. C. Sproul, Table Talk, Oct 1993, Ligonier)" (John Blanchard, Does God believe in Athiests, a conclusion at the end of a 25 page chapter on why humanism is wrong.) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Coming from a bunch of bible-thumpers, I'd expect nothing less than such an ignorant statement. It reflects poorly upon those who made the statement and those who quote it.
Humanism takes all of the useful parts of theism... namely the ethical and moral standards one should abide by... and removes all of the crap about a supreme deity. A humanist behaves just like a Christian, except they do not live their lives anticipating some kind of reward in the end. Thus they are able to free their minds for thinking about science without the impossible constraints of religion. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
i see i touched a nerve there...
we may be a "bunch of bible-thumpers", but that doesnt detract from the truth of the statement.
What do you base your morals on?
Generally calling people stupid tends to touch a nerve in most people boggle <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Don't post things like that if you wish to avoid touching nerves. I could very easily post a thousand opinions... not facts... about how ridiculous Christianity is and I would expect you to come to its defense. You posted an opinion; that does not make it any more true than if I said "Christianity is a tool for herding weak, stupid people."
My morals are based on the belief that we as a species have evolved to such a high level that we are no longer governed by the laws of evolution. We have overcome that obstacle... natural selection... and are now capable of wiping out the majority of life on this planet. The only way for life on the Earth to survive this human plague is for the humans themselves to wake up from this religious trance they are in and realize that there is NOT an everlasting life after this one, and this single trip on Earth is the only one we've got.
There isn't going to be a second coming that will spell Armageddon for the planet. <b>That will never happen.</b> We have to stop thinking like that. The only way that can happen is through peaceful reasoning and cooperation. In a society of billions, that requires a high degree of selflessness. In order to overcome the human plague, we must abolish our religious tenets and start repairing the damage we have done to this planet. If left to continue on the path we are headed right now, humans are going to overwhelm this planet and do irreversible damage. Many would argue that it's too late, but I don't think it is. In order to reverse the trend, science must provide ways for us to repair the damage so we may peacefully co-exist with the rest of life here. If we fail to achieve that, then humans will be obliterated from this planet in short order. Since we are the most advanced lifeform to ever exist here, that would be a travesty of gigantic proportions.
Anyway, while I do agree with some of your points, I dont think we're rid of natural selection yet.
Natural selection is about to adapt to an enviroment, something which we are not rid of yet (especially not when we start to colonize other planets)
Natural selection is about to adapt to an enviroment, something which we are not rid of yet (especially not when we start to colonize other planets) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
An interesting discussion, however that's a whole other topic from this thread.
If you need a god to tell you this then you really are a pretty scary person =/
As for us being a big cosmic fluke, sure, what's wrong with that? In a sea of infinite possibilities all possibilities are born <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Does love need a reason? You could go on about the science of it, the religion of it, but will it change the way you love or how it feels? Nuh-uh... they're just tinkering toy reasons for amusing curiosity. They don't define your life or morals unless you want them to and why should they?
A christian lives a life like most non-christians it only changes when they go off to church, pray or one of these arguements crops up. You still walk the same streets you walked before you 'found god', you still probably eat the same food.
Some people just need a spiritual crutch I suppose, but only some of us... I'm starting to agree with the response someone came up with earlier; Even if I found proof of God it wouldn't mean I'd worship it. My life is fine and dandy without some heavenly amoeba watching me take a shower, whether it actually exists or, in my belief, not.
You know the term 'cosmic fluke' makes me think of this music video where they had these people made up of stars... it's almost kinda sensual in a weird way ^^
Makes the term 'lucky to be alive' much more interesting either way <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
"In 1961, the US Supreme Court defined it was a religion, endorsing the fact that, although it denies the existence of God, it is a carefully structured belief system. The core of that system is the bizarre conviction that man exists by accident and will end in annihilation, but in that brief blip separating the two he is of immense value and dignity and bears important rational and ethical responsibility. The humanist believes that he comes from nothing and is going nowhere, yet insists that the journey itself is of monumental significance. Small wonder that R. C. Sproul calls modern secular humanism 'one of the stupidist beliefs ever concocted' (R. C. Sproul, Table Talk, Oct 1993, Ligonier)" (John Blanchard, Does God believe in Athiests, a conclusion at the end of a 25 page chapter on why humanism is wrong.) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Coming from a bunch of bible-thumpers, I'd expect nothing less than such an ignorant statement. It reflects poorly upon those who made the statement and those who quote it.
Humanism takes all of the useful parts of theism... namely the ethical and moral standards one should abide by... and removes all of the crap about a supreme deity. A humanist behaves just like a Christian, except they do not live their lives anticipating some kind of reward in the end. Thus they are able to free their minds for thinking about science without the impossible constraints of religion. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i see i touched a nerve there...
we may be a "bunch of bible-thumpers", but that doesnt detract from the truth of the statement.
What do you base your morals on? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Relegion has only been used for two purposes, as a system of control by goverments, or as a security measure by people troubled by a seemingly meaningless existence. Saying that relegion sets forth a moral code people follow is silly, becuase every country has laws that are enforced by very real world punishments that wouldn't be necessary if this was true.
By relegion I mean the organized kind.
PS: There are plenty of Christians and Catholics in jail.
3)To explain things in life
Also what if god is irrationel and illogical? (makes no sense I know <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> )
By relegion I mean the organized kind.
PS: There are plenty of Christians and Catholics in jail. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The question of belief in God is not a question of religion, but rather one of faith.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Posted by Me on Page 5
I think what it would take for an atheist to become a believer is to realize there is a clear delineation between a "person of religion" and a "person of faith." When you look at the development of any form of religion, you'll find that it started with a small group or even a single person who believed in a similar group of ideas. As they attempted to communicate this set of ideas, they agreed on basic principles involved and how to communicate these principles. Eventually, as their set of beliefs spread, writing was the only way to maintain the consistency of the faith they were expounding. The Christians have their Bible, the Jews the Talmud, the Muslims the Quran/Koran, the Hindus the Bhagavad-Gita and so on. The key to any religion is that it was originally based on a person's/persons' faith in something greater than themselves.
It's easy to attack my religion. As a Christian, I have been known to do it myself. I'm a firm believer in church reforms and certain liberal stances regarding church policies and the church's methods of spreading the Word. However, my faith is unassailable, and it is something that guides me both in my conscious thoughts, words and actions as well as the unconscious ways I respond the environment around me. The Bible is a set of instructions for how I feel I should live my life, mostly in the New Testament. Matthew 7, Collosians 3 and several other chapters come readily to mind. The Book of Job is great inspiration for me and renews my belief that life is full of trials for us all, tailored to test us most. I've been saved since I was 16, and now I'm just over 20. I came from a family where my grandmother crammed Southern Baptist dogma down my throat and my father let me make up my own mind. I started going to church of my own accord, and was the only one in my house going while I still went. I've had my falls, quite a few of them.
But at the same time, I always turned back to faith. Attacking my faith is pointless, goes nowhere and accomplishes nothing. I've seen plenty of things that have altered the credibility of the church in my eyes, but have yet to see anything that legitimately shook my faith.
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The main problem seems to be that people fail to see the difference between a set of rules, customs and traditions--namely <i>religion</i>--and the belief in something greater and more powerful than ourselves--<i>faith</i>.
And as far as the basis of the majority of criminal/penal codes, look to what is commonly called the Mosaic Code or the Torah (first five books of the old testament). This codicile is the basis for almost every major system of laws in the western world. Looking to the Muslim world, the writings of Mohammed are the same sort of influence over secular governments.
As far as establishing <i>moral</i> codes, that's exactly what they are. They are a set of moral obligations placed upon both the individual and society concerning one's conduct within one's environment and the way society should respond to breaks in those rules.
Next, Catholics <i>are</i> Christians. In fact, the Catholic church is the <i>oldest</i> sect of Christianity back to its establish by St. Peter.
Lastly, expecting perfection and righteousness out of every Christian is absurd. We have our stumbles too. I didn't lose my virginity till <i>after</i> I was saved because I chose to ignore what God wanted me to do with my life and did quite a few stupid things. Christians are human beings just like everyone else when it comes to having emotions, passions, and problems associated with the regulation of both. And I'd also like to see some statistics put forth from the US and other countries with high Christian populations regarding crime rates, prison population demographics, and the delineation between those that have been saved while they were in prison or were professed saved Christians before they comitted their crimes.
Lastly, take the Irish Republican Army. There have been massive amounts of violence perpetrated by thise group, the Provisional IRA and others just over being a Protestant or Catholic. This sort of extremism is no more legitimately Christian than fundamentalist Muslim terrorists are legitimately mainstream Muslims. There are always radicals who bastardize the teachings of great men.
Relegion has only been used for two purposes, as a system of control by goverments, or as a security measure by people troubled by a seemingly meaningless existence. Saying that relegion sets forth a moral code people follow is silly, becuase every country has laws that are enforced by very real world punishments that wouldn't be necessary if this was true.
By relegion I mean the organized kind.
PS: There are plenty of Christians and Catholics in jail. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes, and Adolf Hitler justified the mass murder of the jews with evolution, he saw it as improving the human race, becuase they were defective. There is always going to be someone twisting the message of anything. If you are going to say that religion is bad because it is used to control people, i will say evolution is bad because it caused the death of millions of jews.
Relegion has only been used for two purposes, as a system of control by goverments, or as a security measure by people troubled by a seemingly meaningless existence. Saying that relegion sets forth a moral code people follow is silly, becuase every country has laws that are enforced by very real world punishments that wouldn't be necessary if this was true.
By relegion I mean the organized kind.
PS: There are plenty of Christians and Catholics in jail. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes, and Adolf Hitler justified the mass murder of the jews with evolution, he saw it as improving the human race, becuase they were defective. There is always going to be someone twisting the message of anything. If you are going to say that religion is bad because it is used to control people, i will say evolution is bad because it caused the death of millions of jews. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually Adolf Hitler believed Aryans were God's people and all other races were inferior because God shunned them, same as to why he wanted cripples dead not because of evolution (and if you are going to drag evolution into every single thread I might have to start ignoring you). Some claim he was an athiest but there's evidence of him being Christian. He certainly used propaganda to control his country, and if it was relegious in nature....well refer to my previous point.
As far as relegion being twisted by extremists, I think when something gets used as an excuse for murder and carnage enough times then you have to give some consideration as to why it is so easily manipulated.
Rat actually made a valid refute as to why relegion relegion might be seen as a moral prescedant, but you claiming there can be no morals other than Christian morals is more than annyoing. By your logic Hindus and Pagans are out slaughtering people by the hundreds and raping women on sight.
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It sounds like you have separated faith from religion very well. Unfortunately, I would say the vast majority of people on this planet, whether they be Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, or [insert_your_religion_here] have failed to separate the religious dogma preached to them from the supreme being aspect. This is because faith is not presented outside of religion. Or if it is, it surely isn't very popular, or there are no recruiting aspects to enable it to grow. To most people, separating their god from religion is impossible. Allah is different from the Christian god who is different from the Judaic god in many people's eyes. Belief in the god requires belief in the dogma of the religion subscribing to that god. Therein lies the problem of the Protestants vs Catholics, the Jews vs Muslims, etc. I think that might be what you're saying, correct me if I'm wrong.
For me, regardless of what dogma you wrap around it, the notion of a supreme being is simply not feasible. I prefer to take the acceptable moral and ethical virtures present in most religions and use those as my foundation. My goals in life are to repair the damage we've done to this planet and to stop the insanity of war/killing/destruction for selfish gains. To achieve those goals, I need to have those morals and live up to them, otherwise I would be imprisoned by the society I dwell in.
we are born, we live, we die.
life is valuable simply because it exists.
that we can appreaciate/ are aware of life increases its value even more!
i agree thaty humanism is christianity without all the frills.
you dont need to feel subservient to an invisable man to appreciate life and treat others with respect.
but if thats your bag, go for it.
It's all about this weird thing called 'life' which is made of these thousands of millions of little things called 'experiences'.
Say you're sitting in your room, but you don't know how you got there and you've never seen it before. There's a light in there with you but it's turned off and you're sitting in darkness.
The only thing is, if you turn the light on its battery will keep going until it dies... you won't be able to turn it off.
Are you saying you'd never turn that light on just to even see what the room you're sitting in is like?
Are you so shackled in being a 'free-willed' puppet for a deity that you can't even see what the enjoyment of mere existence is anymore? o.O
So you deem yourself so important that you need some kind of universal purpose? Do you honsetly think that if you and every human just dropped dead today the world wouldn't keep on turning? The universe exists despite us, not because of us.
You still seem to think life requires a purpose. Let me guess... you probably think if a tree falls in the forest and no human is around to hear it, then it probably made no sound, right? What's happening in those galaxies all throughout the Universe... things we cannot see by the naked eye yet can see via the Hubble Space Telescope? Do you think what is happening out there is pointless, since there are no humans over there? Humans are very egotistical and self-centered in their thinking about life.
Since my post, everything that's been posed, save for that of Rat and Boggle, has been some presentation of "I don't like the idea of a God ruling my life."
If life by itself, just the mere fact that we were alive was so astounding, then the only thing that we would do is sit around and marvel at our own luck. "I GOT TO BE! WOOHOO!" But that's not what humanism teaches, is it? It teaches to go out and serve other people, to lead a moral life. In other words, you look for something more fulfilling that sitting around contemplating your navals, thinking about how cool it is that you're here.
That's the one cool thing about humanism, I think. That it teaches that there is a way you can spend your life which is, in some way, more rewarding than others. There is a better way to live your life outside of self service. The real question is, who am I going to serve?
I choose to serve Christ. As it turns out, how this manifests itself isn't far from what the humanists are going for.
Matthew 25:45 <span style='color:Red'>"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'</span>
The only difference between a Humanist and a Christian is that a Christian chooses to humble himself before God. Some of you have said yourselves, if God existed, you wouldn't worship Him.
If that is the case, then the issue is not who needs a crutch, but who knows when to bow to authority.
If you don't believe in God because you can't see Him, that's another story. But saying that you'd never even nod to Him if he existed?
In the end it's nice that people help one another selflessly... I'm all for that whatever the spiritual/non-spiritual reason, it's just when people try to tell you the reason you should be doing things (especially when it's because some big bad boss tells you to) I start getting cattish.
I was brought up by open-minded parents... they neither shoved religion down my throat nor denied me it's knowledge. I wasn't christened, I was never really told anything good nor bad about religion; my parents simply provided whatever information was available for whatever I wanted to know about anything through books, experience and the knowledge of others.
School, however, crammed christianity down my throat. At first i ate it up like any other kid would really but then, like I always do, I just started getting curious =P
In the end I threw off christianity and went hunting through buhddism, new-age and other weird and wonderful stuff, checking what I could on the various religions and experiencing the ones that sounded right.
In the end Athiesm or maybe if you want to try and put me under it; humanism is the place I settled.
Believe what you want, I've been around the block like I'm sure most of you have, but I'm happy where I am. If someone tries to convert me or tell me I'm wrong then they can only expect the same in return, both in content and in tone <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
It's really too bad people keep presenting that view.
Acts 16:30 He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
31 They (Paul and Silas)replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved--you and your household."