But you must also be free of sin, hence following the commandments, hence obeying laws doctrined by God, hence obeying under threat of damnation.
Boggle: I for one am content living life for the purpose of gaining personal knowledge and experience, I don't need some greater purpose, and I am fully aware if I died nothing in this universe would change, and that our species isn't essential to our own world, much less anything beyond our solar system. My advice, get over yourself.
What I don't understand, is if Jesus is forgiving that he forgives everyone for their sins, how can being athiest be so unforgivable?
You could murder 2000 people in your lifetime. If you ask for forgiveness, you have it. However, if you were born in a part of the world where you know nothing of God or Jesus, you get banished to hell for an unforgiveable sin. Why is that?
It comes down to this, the Bible has many useful teachings and great insights into man, the basic principles of Christianity are good and benefical to the world, but when you take the ideas and organize them into a Church that pumps out dogma and doctrine to dictate a person's life then it not only loses merit but bastardizes the very idea, my opinion.
<!--QuoteBegin--Legionnaired+Oct 15 2003, 02:09 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Oct 15 2003, 02:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If you don't believe in God because you can't see Him, that's another story. But saying that you'd never even nod to Him if he existed? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Very interesting take on it. One who requires proof before believing, but still would allow himself to believe, would be considered Agnostic. Atheists would deny it. Whether any evidence is found to prove that a supreme being does exist... well who knows if that person would nod or not. That's a hypothetical. It's like asking you whether you would nod to Satan if it turned out God doesn't exist but Satan does, and he's ruling the cosmos. It may not be what you like, so would you fervently deny it, just refusing to accept any proof? I think this is the case with Evolution vs Creation. Regardless of the proof, no nod is given and only flat denials from the Creationist side. As many would say, their faith is unshakeable.
What I like with Humanism is that I don't need any supreme being at all to lead a productive life. I find joy in the fact we are even able to think about these things. We celebrate just having that ability, because it's lots of fun. No one gets hurt in the process, and it's damn near impossible to twist the ideals of Humanism to justify homicide. What I really wonder about is whether other animals think about their place in the world, too. Apes, chimps, dolphins... they are all self-aware. Do they think about supreme beings?
lol boggle, I like how you have this shuttered view where everything has to have a use to excuse it's existance ^^ I've got a better idea... how about you tell me what actual, genuine <b>use</b> you have to your omnipotent heavenly amoeba... what can you do for it? Why are you so important or useful? God can do anything, why would it need a peon like you to do it's mighty biddings? It can stop the floods, cure all diseases, wash away our worries with a wave of it's... whatever it waves. But wait!!! It won't do that, not because it doesn't exist; oh no... because... that's right... you're it's toy ^^ It gives you free will and some rules, breaks out the popcorn and laughs at your funny gangly antics. Look at those funny humans!!! hilarous!!! Dance monkeys dance!!!
I live a life of experiences... it has no relevance in the big bad universe, but it's mine to live and enjoy. If you're so hung up on a purpose ask yourself why you play games. Once you've applied your amazing 'I need a use' logic to it, I fully expect you to stop playing games, shave your head and go off to be a monk helping in christian aid across the globe. At least that way you're not only doing god's will but being more useful than playing games because they're enjoyable.
<!--QuoteBegin--dr.d+Oct 15 2003, 02:42 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (dr.d @ Oct 15 2003, 02:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I was baptised, so does that mean I can kill 50 people and get into heaven as long as I believe in Jesus and accept him as my savior? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Ooh, I'm baptized. I'm also a confirmed Lutheran. Does that give me a "get out of jail free" card to do whatever I want, too? All I have to do is repent on my death bed and all will be forgiven? Sweet deal! I think that kind of mentality is what many people actually think, and so they lead a sinful life.
EpidemicDark Force GorgeJoin Date: 2003-06-29Member: 17781Members
<!--QuoteBegin--dr.d+Oct 15 2003, 03:42 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (dr.d @ Oct 15 2003, 03:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I was baptised, so does that mean I can kill 50 people and get into heaven as long as I believe in Jesus and accept him as my savior? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually, if you believed in Jesus you would believe his moral stands as well
I don't want to hijack, but this question was nagging on my mind (this is a question for theists): What would it take for you to convert to... say... the Greek religion (you know, Zeus)?
I'm not asking for an explanation of why you would never do that, I'd just like to see what the points of a religion are "sticky," like what aspects of it are the most unique and important ones.
<!--QuoteBegin--Epidemic+Oct 15 2003, 04:03 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Epidemic @ Oct 15 2003, 04:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--dr.d+Oct 15 2003, 03:42 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (dr.d @ Oct 15 2003, 03:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I was baptised, so does that mean I can kill 50 people and get into heaven as long as I believe in Jesus and accept him as my savior? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually, if you believed in Jesus you would believe his moral stands as well <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well Boggle denies that people obey the commandmants out of fear of damnation, so apperantly you don't have to follow them as long as you accept Jesus. But if you do have to follow them that brings me back to my point that you are doing something to get into Heaven or more importantly not to go to Hell.
I've shoplifted in the past, I didn't feel that bad about it nor did I feel good about it, money isn't that big of a concern to me so I've never felt a need to steal, I've never brutally hurt or killed anyone because I am not violent by nature, I don't maliciously lie to people or spread rumors about them, all of these things are part of my natural behavior, a lot of it probably has to do with how I was raised, and where I grew up, but one thing is for sure I didn't magically have morals instilled in me the day I was baptised.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What would it take for you to convert to... say... the Greek religion (you know, Zeus)? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It would have to be a logical explanation for the happenings in the world I experience, and it would have to be superior (read: more wholesome, more consistent, more useful, more beautiful) to all other explanations I've heard. It would help if many people I respect and trust shared this faith, and I could observe that it changed their lives for the better.
EpidemicDark Force GorgeJoin Date: 2003-06-29Member: 17781Members
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well Boggle denies that people obey the commandmants out of fear of damnation<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree with Boggle, Christianity is about forgiving, if you anger what you did, god will forgive you anytime. The commandents about stealing is more like, dont cause grief upon your fellow man. Not like stealing a bread out of a famine from a wealthy person. You said you grew up with a religious family (you were baptised) They must have passed their ethical values on to you, which they must have recieved from the bible.
btw. I think it's demeaning to say "organized faith"
<!--QuoteBegin--dr.d+Oct 15 2003, 04:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (dr.d @ Oct 15 2003, 04:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Epidemic+Oct 15 2003, 04:03 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Epidemic @ Oct 15 2003, 04:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--dr.d+Oct 15 2003, 03:42 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (dr.d @ Oct 15 2003, 03:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I was baptised, so does that mean I can kill 50 people and get into heaven as long as I believe in Jesus and accept him as my savior? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually, if you believed in Jesus you would believe his moral stands as well <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well Boggle denies that people obey the commandmants out of fear of damnation, so apperantly you don't have to follow them as long as you accept Jesus. But if you do have to follow them that brings me back to my point that you are doing something to get into Heaven or more importantly not to go to Hell.
I've shoplifted in the past, I didn't feel that bad about it nor did I feel good about it, money isn't that big of a concern to me so I've never felt a need to steal, I've never brutally hurt or killed anyone because I am not violent by nature, I don't maliciously lie to people or spread rumors about them, all of these things are part of my natural behavior, a lot of it probably has to do with how I was raised, and where I grew up, but one thing is for sure I didn't magically have morals instilled in me the day I was baptised. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you're seeing it as a business agreement, it does nothing for you. Hebrews 10 is all about this, and it's up to many different interpretations. Some believe that by repetition of a sinful act, you "empty the cross of it's power." Others believe in the eternal security idea, that no matter how much you sin, it's still all washed away.
However, if someone says the words "Lord please forgive me for my sins" While he loads 7.62 mm Hollow-point rounds into an assault rifle and in cold blood mows down 50 people, where is the repentance? The words are said, but no prayer is made, it is an addage, a saying, not a prayer. No true confession of sin, no true bowing of the knee is made. The words are just words. Empty and useless.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's like asking you whether you would nod to Satan if it turned out God doesn't exist but Satan does, and he's ruling the cosmos. It may not be what you like, so would you fervently deny it, just refusing to accept any proof?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, for one thing, if God didn't exist, there would be no Satan, but I see what you mean. If God were, say, evil, sadistic, and cruel, would I follow Him?
Unquestionably. Because I myself would want to be evil and cruel. I would have been created in that image, and as much as I might mar that perfect evil with iniquities of kindness, I would want to be free of goodness, in my most basic instinct.
If God did not create me in His image, then it would depend on the tendancies he created me with. I would, in the end, behave as he wanted me to behave.
By the way: Disbelief in God is a sin just like any other. The reason it's the one that gets you, is because by the very nature of disbelief, you reject Christ's work on the cross. You can't work your way to heaven. Nothing save the forgiveness of God can get you there.
This isn't a nasty Q or whatever but I noticed some christians don't believe in the devil... they believe in god but not in satan. If you don't get to heaven and if you don't believe in satan wouldn't you just end up 'finito' as in no more consciousness. I guess what I'm really getting at is... what's so bad about eternal peace compared eternal happiness? =3
With Boggle's ever present mind-set of needing a point, what's the point in heaven? you've done your time but if you needed a purpose then what would you do in heaven? Enjoying being alive doesn't seem to be enough for some people so what kind of happiness would they derive from simply existing in heaven be once the initial novelty of getting there in the first place wears off? I know I could be happy in a 'heaven' but I'm curious what would happen for 'useful' people like boggle =D
It's just my whiskers twitching with their usual curiosity ^^
<!--QuoteBegin--Eviscerator+Oct 15 2003, 09:51 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Eviscerator @ Oct 15 2003, 09:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> All I have to do is repent on my death bed and all will be forgiven? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If you are truly sorry, yes.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I like how you have this shuttered view where everything has to have a use to excuse it's existance ^^<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, what do you have in your house that isnt useful, or ever has been useful. Very little i expect.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I've got a better idea... how about you tell me what actual, genuine use you have to your omnipotent heavenly amoeba<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b><i><u>Amoeba?</b></i></u>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->... what can you do for it? Why are you so important or useful? God can do anything, why would it need a peon like you to do it's mighty biddings?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know. Its brilliant isnt it? thankyou for agreeing with me. What does God need me for? i'll tell you. ABSOLUTELY BUGGER ALL. Nothing. yet he still loves me. Its wonderful.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It can stop the floods, cure all diseases, wash away our worries<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right, right, and right again. (although god is not an it, God is a He.)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->with a wave of it's... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm glad you agree with me <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It gives you free will and some rules, <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and what do we do? turn our backs on him
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->breaks out the popcorn <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
More like breaks out his only son
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->and laughs at your funny gangly antics<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And sends him to die for the imperfect filty disgusting humans who really dont deserve even to exist
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Look at those funny humans!!! hilarous!!!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Look at those humans who still refuse to accept me
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well Boggle denies that people obey the commandmants out of fear of damnation<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When did i say that??
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If you're so hung up on a purpose ask yourself why you play games. Once you've applied your amazing 'I need a use' logic to it, I fully expect you to stop playing games, shave your head and go off to be a monk helping in christian aid across the globe. At least that way you're not only doing god's will but being more useful than playing games because they're enjoyable<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I play games because i enjoy them. They entertain me (and in some cases keep me sane) and give me a method of distraction. Im not going to go and become a monk because i feel i can do better than that. Yes, computer games do distract me from God, and it might be better if i stopped playing them, but my physical body doesnt want to.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->However, if you were born in a part of the world where you know nothing of God or Jesus, you get banished to hell for an unforgiveable sin. Why is that? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Been asked before, ben answered before. nobody knows how God will deal with the people who have never had the chance to hear about Jesus, which is why its our job to make sure they do.
EpidemicDark Force GorgeJoin Date: 2003-06-29Member: 17781Members
OMG!!11one God is a HE gg old-fashion <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
No, God a being who has no gender, but due to the cultire at the time of the bible being written, was refered to as "He" to save writing "omnipotent being wot has no gender". I think you will agree it is much simpler. yes it is old fasioned, so what? Sue me.
Oh, right... God's a he and <b>Man</b> is made in <b>his</b> image... silly me. Eve was just Adam's plaything, put there to amuse him how stupid of me to forget all that <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Technically speaking if god created us then we're all <b>his</b> sons and daughters and at this rate I'd be happier if you were the one that got crucified =3
Well, I'm sure you'll have plenty to do in your perfect world ~rolls eyes~ And as for things in my house that have no 'use' I have plenty. Crystals, necklaces, a globe, pencils, pens, etc. Things I have never used, nor worn and yet sit in my house all the same. I don't wear jewellery but yet I still have necklaces and rings, My geography is terrible yet I still have my little untouched globe. I bought this stuff for the purpose of having it... it has no use, it doesn't do anything constructive yet I bought them anyway because I liked them. Guess 'God' 'bought' me because <b>he</b> enjoys me huh? I'll never be a christian, nor really worship any deity and I'll still say the same on my deathbed, like a large quantity of people on these UK shores.
The truth is, if we're useless to god because we'll never acknowledge it and it really is omnipotent then it would already know that we'd never worship it... If that's the case how come we're still here? I've seen athiests go to their deathbeds without a single faith in some hovering great one after years of full and happy lives and yet I've seen some christians snatched from the face of the earth before their time despite their faith. What's that? An early reward?
Does god love the people <b>he</b> crushes under piles of rock, burns screaming with molten lava, blasts apart with waves of explosive concussion or splatters under crushing weights of water? There's some real love there for cancer victims who die a slow death, knowing that their life will end and suffering every day until death is kind enough to relieve them from their anguish and pain. I wouldn't wish such suffering on people I hated with all my heart yet god 'loves' these people o.O
A game is something you enjoy... to me life is just a greater game; something with no purpose but the simple savouring of it's every moment. For you it's living on rules, regulations and whatnot cast down you 100000th hand in text and word believing in a god you say loves you yet never gives you the simple physical comfort of even a hug, or reassurance it exists as it swipes thousands of lives off the face of the planet each day. The worst part of all is once it's over you'll no longer have any point whether you're right or not. Heaven is just life on earth without the bad stuff but without the bad stuff, what good is the good? Even if it was just some weird limbo wrapped in happiness you'd still have no point, and how long before happiness itself just becomes another wearisome impulse? =3
No... I prefer the idea of a pleasant life filled with the balances of both up and down with a conclusion at the end that gives eternal peace... the peace of nothing. No worries, no pain, no suffering, no thoughts, no sleepless nights, no heartbreak, nothing. An empty abyss in which all are equal and there's no love nor hate, laughter or pain, or even a consciousness to worry about the lack of either <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> Serene... isn't it? ^^
"In 1961, the US Supreme Court defined it was a religion, endorsing the fact that, although it denies the existence of God, it is a carefully structured belief system. The core of that system is the bizarre conviction that man exists by accident and will end in annihilation, but in that brief blip separating the two he is of immense value and dignity and bears important rational and ethical responsibility. The humanist believes that he comes from nothing and is going nowhere, yet insists that the journey itself is of monumental significance. Small wonder that R. C. Sproul calls modern secular humanism 'one of the stupidist beliefs ever concocted' (R. C. Sproul, Table Talk, Oct 1993, Ligonier)" (John Blanchard, Does God believe in Athiests, a conclusion at the end of a 25 page chapter on why humanism is wrong.) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why am I rebring up this little gem? Because I didnt see one person even make an attempt to answer it. Some people got offended, some said "You shouldnt say nasty things" or "How would you like it if we said that about you", but no one said, thats wrong and here's why.
So please, I'd love to hear it - what is critically wrong with the above statement? Or is it correct?
EDIT To gemin - your entire arguement above has been used and answered in the Arguement From Evil thread
You know what people? Christianity is the biggest cop out religion ever. Prior to it you got into heaven or (instert paradise of choice here) and avoided hell or (instert eternal damnation of choice here) by doing certain things. But in chrstianity your sins have already been paid for, all you have to do is believe in the one Jesus of Nasarath payed for them for you. Not only that, but jesus paid for all of the sins of all of humanity for all of time by going to hell..... for 3 days. Thats right, eternity * all the humans who will ever live = 3 days. Perhaps that is why christianity is so popular, becaue it has the least requirements for to get that ticket to paradise.
<!--QuoteBegin--SkulkBait+Oct 15 2003, 06:31 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Oct 15 2003, 06:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You know what people? Christianity is the biggest cop out religion ever. Prior to it you got into heaven or (instert paradise of choice here) and avoided hell or (instert eternal damnation of choice here) by doing certain things. But in chrstianity your sins have already been paid for, all you have to do is believe in the one Jesus of Nasarath payed for them for you. Not only that, but jesus paid for all of the sins of all of humanity for all of time by going to hell..... for 3 days. Thats right, eternity * all the humans who will ever live = 3 days. Perhaps that is why christianity is so popular, becaue it has the least requirements for to get that ticket to paradise. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Just because its easy doesnt mean its wrong. There are two ways to get money out of the bank - shoot your way in and take it, or wait in a que and withdraw it from the teller. Now which is right, which is wrong, and which is easier?
Dont you think that if there was a loving and just God that he would make it possible for EVERYONE to be able to be forgiven? Does God really **** you off because he offers everyone the same opportunity? Wow.
EDIT Oh - and I dont believe he actually went and stayed in Hell when he was dead, I do believe that he made a stopoff to grab the keys, but that was it. Sin transfer Skulk, the Jews had been doing it for years. Sacrafice an animal and dump your sin on it so it takes the blame. But animals are quite the same as a perfect human - and a perfect human can obviously take the blame for as much sin as s/he likes on himself/herself. Take the blame, pay the prices, and if you happen to be both fully human and fully God, ressurect urself and everyone goes home happy that wants to.
Heh about you get this seat in heaven, right away is making me think of Metallica's song "Leper Messiah"
"Time for lust, time for lie Time to kiss your life goodbye Send me money, send me green, heaven you will meet Make a contribution and you'll get the better seat"
ok, so my last post was a little harsh but boggle's getting on my nerves =P
Anyways... I kinda answered that one when it was posted; Anything looks stupid if you word it correctly.
I can't talk much for humanism because I only found out it even existed thanks to this thread but seeing as it's a lot like the way I live my life I'll just answer it best I can with my own beliefs ^^ The 'brief blip' between life and death is of immense value to the person living it and effects everyone it interacts with. You might not change the cosmos but the key factor is enjoying life and helping others to do the same. If we're talking about it on the grand scale of 'humanity' rather than an idividual, we exist on a small planet within a small solar system that lies in an incredible sparkling field which we can't even begin to really measure the size of. Whether we as a race continue and change or vanish forever... does it matter? I find it much easier to sit and wonder at all the possibilities than to play with the self-important ideal that 'Judgement day' will come and the earth will be remade and all that nonsense. What then? What after that? The story told by the bible, whether true or not is a small twinkle in the potential lifetime of existence itself and the actual time of humanity on this piece of rock equates to a tiny droplet in the timescale of the planet. If you're so wound up in having some great significance the story up to and including judgement day is too small... what happens after that 'happily ever after' tale? This is life we're talking about, not some words on a page... it keeps going long after the story has finished.
The paragraph up there is merely a biased quote from a biased book, Given the time and inclination I'm sure one of us could go off and find some anti-christian literature that says in it's lopsided opinion Christianity is a bunch of lunatics and fools living in a daydream where the earth is a big disk, with a glass dome where angels pour water through trapdoors to make rain and god sits on an armchair made of cotton-candy clouds. Is there anything else that needs to be said about that silly quote? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Marine01+Oct 15 2003, 06:34 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Marine01 @ Oct 15 2003, 06:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--SkulkBait+Oct 15 2003, 06:31 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Oct 15 2003, 06:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You know what people? Christianity is the biggest cop out religion ever. Prior to it you got into heaven or (instert paradise of choice here) and avoided hell or (instert eternal damnation of choice here) by doing certain things. But in chrstianity your sins have already been paid for, all you have to do is believe in the one Jesus of Nasarath payed for them for you. Not only that, but jesus paid for all of the sins of all of humanity for all of time by going to hell..... for 3 days. Thats right, eternity * all the humans who will ever live = 3 days. Perhaps that is why christianity is so popular, becaue it has the least requirements for to get that ticket to paradise. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Just because its easy doesnt mean its wrong. There are two ways to get money out of the bank - shoot your way in and take it, or wait in a que and withdraw it from the teller. Now which is right, which is wrong, and which is easier?
Dont you think that if there was a loving and just God that he would make it possible for EVERYONE to be able to be forgiven? Does God really **** you off because he offers everyone the same opportunity? Wow.
EDIT Oh - and I dont believe he actually went and stayed in Hell when he was dead, I do believe that he made a stopoff to grab the keys, but that was it. Sin transfer Skulk, the Jews had been doing it for years. Sacrafice an animal and dump your sin on it so it takes the blame. But animals are quite the same as a perfect human - and a perfect human can obviously take the blame for as much sin as s/he likes on himself/herself. Take the blame, pay the prices, and if you happen to be both fully human and fully God, ressurect urself and everyone goes home happy that wants to. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Really? I could have sworn that animals were sacrificed to show your devotion to God. Back when that sort of thing was done more often, killing one of your animals needlessly was a huge waste of resources, thus by doing it you were saying "Yo God, Thinking of you buddy!". But thats all beside the point.
You're right easiest != wrong, but it does make one susspicious. You have of course heard the saying "If it seems to good to be true, it probably is".
<!--QuoteBegin--Geminosity+Oct 15 2003, 06:42 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Geminosity @ Oct 15 2003, 06:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ok, so my last post was a little harsh but boggle's getting on my nerves =P
Anyways... I kinda answered that one when it was posted; Anything looks stupid if you word it correctly.
I can't talk much for humanism because I only found out it even existed thanks to this thread but seeing as it's a lot like the way I live my life I'll just answer it best I can with my own beliefs ^^ The 'brief blip' between life and death is of immense value to the person living it and effects everyone it interacts with. You might not change the cosmos but the key factor is enjoying life and helping others to do the same. If we're talking about it on the grand scale of 'humanity' rather than an idividual, we exist on a small planet within a small solar system that lies in an incredible sparkling field which we can't even begin to really measure the size of. Whether we as a race continue and change or vanish forever... does it matter? I find it much easier to sit and wonder at all the possibilities than to play with the self-important ideal that 'Judgement day' will come and the earth will be remade and all that nonsense. What then? What after that? The story told by the bible, whether true or not is a small twinkle in the potential lifetime of existence itself and the actual time of humanity on this piece of rock equates to a tiny droplet in the timescale of the planet. If you're so wound up in having some great significance the story up to and including judgement day is too small... what happens after that 'happily ever after' tale? This is life we're talking about, not some words on a page... it keeps going long after the story has finished.
The paragraph up there is merely a biased quote from a biased book, Given the time and inclination I'm sure one of us could go off and find some anti-christian literature that says in it's lopsided opinion Christianity is a bunch of lunatics and fools living in a daydream where the earth is a big disk, with a glass dome where angels pour water through trapdoors to make rain and god sits on an armchair made of cotton-candy clouds. Is there anything else that needs to be said about that silly quote? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I am completely sure you could, as I am completely sure I could answer said qoute when (not if) you find it.
However I dont feel you have answered fully what Blanchard was saying. I need a precise reason why you are special and important and have certain responsibilities. Sure a person feels his life to be valuable, but why does that MAKE it valuable? Why is the key factor enjoying life and helping others to do the same? Do you get a buzz from it? If so, what if you got the same buzz from tearing his spinal column out? Is that any better or worse, if its all about the buzz?
However, Blanchard is talking on the grand scale of humanity - and I feel that he summarized the humanist point of view pretty darn well. We came from nothing, we are going to nothing, but we are all special, unique and have certain responsiblities between nothingness and nothingness. It sounds crazy to me. Now Blanchard didnt just whip that out and lay it down on the table, he wrote 25 pages or so before it analysing humanism, and that was merely his conclusion. I have read the book myself, and I found it thoroughly enjoyable and very readable. Of course he starts out with a bias - but who doesnt? Dont give me scientists or I'll scream <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
EDIT If the story told by the Bible is true, then its not a twinkle. In this vast universe, there is a God that cares very much for each and every human - and is working to a plan. Despite the granduer and boggling size of the universe, we are very much a major item of His focus.
hold on... why did jesus need to die for everyone's sins? The person who was getting paid for these sins was god right? So why not just write them off instead of having a kid and then having him unnessarily suffer for it? o.O It almost makes it sound like god is playing by some higher powers rules and had to appease them instead ~blink~
<b>Marine posts fast edit:</b> lol, you squeezed that in while I was typing my ephiphany ^^
It might seem crazy to you, but then again it seems crazy to me that you need humanity to have some great purpose. I think it's just a case of clashing mindsets =3 While you find that bible and whatnot makes sense to you and you can empathise with it, I find it kinda silly and get frightened that people would spend their lives on something that to me personally seems like a waste. But it means something to them as my own beliefs mean something to me and I'm sure there's no end of people with their deities who think I'm completely bonkers and wasting my time living the way I do too <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Geminosity+Oct 15 2003, 06:53 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Geminosity @ Oct 15 2003, 06:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> hold on... why did jesus need to die for everyone's sins? The person who was getting paid for these sins was god right? So why not just write them off instead of having a kid and then having him unnessarily suffer for it? o.O It almost makes it sound like god is playing by some higher powers rules and had to appease them instead ~blink~ <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That brings up another point, if Jesus is supposedly an incarnation of God, why did God punish himself? Is'nt he perfect, and thus beyond such things?
<!--QuoteBegin--SkulkBait+Oct 15 2003, 06:59 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Oct 15 2003, 06:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Geminosity+Oct 15 2003, 06:53 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Geminosity @ Oct 15 2003, 06:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> hold on... why did jesus need to die for everyone's sins? The person who was getting paid for these sins was god right? So why not just write them off instead of having a kid and then having him unnessarily suffer for it? o.O It almost makes it sound like god is playing by some higher powers rules and had to appease them instead ~blink~ <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That brings up another point, if Jesus is supposedly an incarnation of God, why did God punish himself? Is'nt he perfect, and thus beyond such things? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> All people usually accept the idea of a Loving and All-powerful God, but the third quality that is overlooked is just.
Exodus 34:6 And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, "The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, 7 maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished;
_____
2 Corinthians 5:21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
Or : As the guilty, we need something to take away our sins. But black and black do not make white. God sent his son to be the perfect being that Sin would not destroy, could not destroy, to take all that Sin upon himself.
Comments
Boggle: I for one am content living life for the purpose of gaining personal knowledge and experience, I don't need some greater purpose, and I am fully aware if I died nothing in this universe would change, and that our species isn't essential to our own world, much less anything beyond our solar system. My advice, get over yourself.
You could murder 2000 people in your lifetime. If you ask for forgiveness, you have it. However, if you were born in a part of the world where you know nothing of God or Jesus, you get banished to hell for an unforgiveable sin. Why is that?
Very interesting take on it. One who requires proof before believing, but still would allow himself to believe, would be considered Agnostic. Atheists would deny it. Whether any evidence is found to prove that a supreme being does exist... well who knows if that person would nod or not. That's a hypothetical. It's like asking you whether you would nod to Satan if it turned out God doesn't exist but Satan does, and he's ruling the cosmos. It may not be what you like, so would you fervently deny it, just refusing to accept any proof? I think this is the case with Evolution vs Creation. Regardless of the proof, no nod is given and only flat denials from the Creationist side. As many would say, their faith is unshakeable.
What I like with Humanism is that I don't need any supreme being at all to lead a productive life. I find joy in the fact we are even able to think about these things. We celebrate just having that ability, because it's lots of fun. No one gets hurt in the process, and it's damn near impossible to twist the ideals of Humanism to justify homicide. What I really wonder about is whether other animals think about their place in the world, too. Apes, chimps, dolphins... they are all self-aware. Do they think about supreme beings?
I've got a better idea... how about you tell me what actual, genuine <b>use</b> you have to your omnipotent heavenly amoeba... what can you do for it? Why are you so important or useful? God can do anything, why would it need a peon like you to do it's mighty biddings?
It can stop the floods, cure all diseases, wash away our worries with a wave of it's... whatever it waves.
But wait!!! It won't do that, not because it doesn't exist; oh no... because... that's right... you're it's toy ^^
It gives you free will and some rules, breaks out the popcorn and laughs at your funny gangly antics. Look at those funny humans!!! hilarous!!! Dance monkeys dance!!!
I live a life of experiences... it has no relevance in the big bad universe, but it's mine to live and enjoy. If you're so hung up on a purpose ask yourself why you play games. Once you've applied your amazing 'I need a use' logic to it, I fully expect you to stop playing games, shave your head and go off to be a monk helping in christian aid across the globe. At least that way you're not only doing god's will but being more useful than playing games because they're enjoyable.
~waves boggle off to get their shaver~
Ooh, I'm baptized. I'm also a confirmed Lutheran. Does that give me a "get out of jail free" card to do whatever I want, too? All I have to do is repent on my death bed and all will be forgiven? Sweet deal! I think that kind of mentality is what many people actually think, and so they lead a sinful life.
Actually, if you believed in Jesus you would believe his moral stands as well
I'm not asking for an explanation of why you would never do that, I'd just like to see what the points of a religion are "sticky," like what aspects of it are the most unique and important ones.
Actually, if you believed in Jesus you would believe his moral stands as well <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well Boggle denies that people obey the commandmants out of fear of damnation, so apperantly you don't have to follow them as long as you accept Jesus. But if you do have to follow them that brings me back to my point that you are doing something to get into Heaven or more importantly not to go to Hell.
I've shoplifted in the past, I didn't feel that bad about it nor did I feel good about it, money isn't that big of a concern to me so I've never felt a need to steal, I've never brutally hurt or killed anyone because I am not violent by nature, I don't maliciously lie to people or spread rumors about them, all of these things are part of my natural behavior, a lot of it probably has to do with how I was raised, and where I grew up, but one thing is for sure I didn't magically have morals instilled in me the day I was baptised.
It would have to be a logical explanation for the happenings in the world I experience, and it would have to be superior (read: more wholesome, more consistent, more useful, more beautiful) to all other explanations I've heard. It would help if many people I respect and trust shared this faith, and I could observe that it changed their lives for the better.
I agree with Boggle, Christianity is about forgiving, if you anger what you did, god will forgive you anytime.
The commandents about stealing is more like, dont cause grief upon your fellow man. Not like stealing a bread out of a famine from a wealthy person.
You said you grew up with a religious family (you were baptised) They must have passed their ethical values on to you, which they must have recieved from the bible.
btw. I think it's demeaning to say "organized faith"
Actually, if you believed in Jesus you would believe his moral stands as well <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well Boggle denies that people obey the commandmants out of fear of damnation, so apperantly you don't have to follow them as long as you accept Jesus. But if you do have to follow them that brings me back to my point that you are doing something to get into Heaven or more importantly not to go to Hell.
I've shoplifted in the past, I didn't feel that bad about it nor did I feel good about it, money isn't that big of a concern to me so I've never felt a need to steal, I've never brutally hurt or killed anyone because I am not violent by nature, I don't maliciously lie to people or spread rumors about them, all of these things are part of my natural behavior, a lot of it probably has to do with how I was raised, and where I grew up, but one thing is for sure I didn't magically have morals instilled in me the day I was baptised. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you're seeing it as a business agreement, it does nothing for you. Hebrews 10 is all about this, and it's up to many different interpretations. Some believe that by repetition of a sinful act, you "empty the cross of it's power." Others believe in the eternal security idea, that no matter how much you sin, it's still all washed away.
However, if someone says the words "Lord please forgive me for my sins" While he loads 7.62 mm Hollow-point rounds into an assault rifle and in cold blood mows down 50 people, where is the repentance? The words are said, but no prayer is made, it is an addage, a saying, not a prayer. No true confession of sin, no true bowing of the knee is made. The words are just words. Empty and useless.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's like asking you whether you would nod to Satan if it turned out God doesn't exist but Satan does, and he's ruling the cosmos. It may not be what you like, so would you fervently deny it, just refusing to accept any proof?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, for one thing, if God didn't exist, there would be no Satan, but I see what you mean. If God were, say, evil, sadistic, and cruel, would I follow Him?
Unquestionably. Because I myself would want to be evil and cruel. I would have been created in that image, and as much as I might mar that perfect evil with iniquities of kindness, I would want to be free of goodness, in my most basic instinct.
If God did not create me in His image, then it would depend on the tendancies he created me with. I would, in the end, behave as he wanted me to behave.
By the way: Disbelief in God is a sin just like any other. The reason it's the one that gets you, is because by the very nature of disbelief, you reject Christ's work on the cross. You can't work your way to heaven. Nothing save the forgiveness of God can get you there.
If you don't get to heaven and if you don't believe in satan wouldn't you just end up 'finito' as in no more consciousness.
I guess what I'm really getting at is... what's so bad about eternal peace compared eternal happiness? =3
With Boggle's ever present mind-set of needing a point, what's the point in heaven? you've done your time but if you needed a purpose then what would you do in heaven? Enjoying being alive doesn't seem to be enough for some people so what kind of happiness would they derive from simply existing in heaven be once the initial novelty of getting there in the first place wears off? I know I could be happy in a 'heaven' but I'm curious what would happen for 'useful' people like boggle =D
It's just my whiskers twitching with their usual curiosity ^^
If you are truly sorry, yes.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->lol boggle<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Im glad i make you laugh
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I like how you have this shuttered view where everything has to have a use to excuse it's existance ^^<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, what do you have in your house that isnt useful, or ever has been useful. Very little i expect.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I've got a better idea... how about you tell me what actual, genuine use you have to your omnipotent heavenly amoeba<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b><i><u>Amoeba?</b></i></u>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->... what can you do for it? Why are you so important or useful? God can do anything, why would it need a peon like you to do it's mighty biddings?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know. Its brilliant isnt it? thankyou for agreeing with me. What does God need me for? i'll tell you. ABSOLUTELY BUGGER ALL. Nothing. yet he still loves me. Its wonderful.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It can stop the floods, cure all diseases, wash away our worries<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right, right, and right again. (although god is not an it, God is a He.)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->with a wave of it's... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
...his
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->whatever it waves.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But wait!!! It won't do that,<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes he will. When the world ends, there will be no more suffering in the new earth.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->not because it doesn't exist; oh no... because... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He is beyond our understanding and comprehension
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->that's right<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm glad you agree with me <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->... you're it's toy ^^<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm his creation, yes, i wouldnt say toy.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It gives you free will and some rules, <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and what do we do? turn our backs on him
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->breaks out the popcorn <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
More like breaks out his only son
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->and laughs at your funny gangly antics<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And sends him to die for the imperfect filty disgusting humans who really dont deserve even to exist
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Look at those funny humans!!! hilarous!!!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Look at those humans who still refuse to accept me
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Dance monkeys dance!!!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and where on earth did they come into this?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well Boggle denies that people obey the commandmants out of fear of damnation<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When did i say that??
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If you're so hung up on a purpose ask yourself why you play games. Once you've applied your amazing 'I need a use' logic to it, I fully expect you to stop playing games, shave your head and go off to be a monk helping in christian aid across the globe. At least that way you're not only doing god's will but being more useful than playing games because they're enjoyable<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I play games because i enjoy them. They entertain me (and in some cases keep me sane) and give me a method of distraction. Im not going to go and become a monk because i feel i can do better than that. Yes, computer games do distract me from God, and it might be better if i stopped playing them, but my physical body doesnt want to.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->However, if you were born in a part of the world where you know nothing of God or Jesus, you get banished to hell for an unforgiveable sin. Why is that?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Been asked before, ben answered before. nobody knows how God will deal with the people who have never had the chance to hear about Jesus, which is why its our job to make sure they do.
gg old-fashion <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Technically speaking if god created us then we're all <b>his</b> sons and daughters and at this rate I'd be happier if you were the one that got crucified =3
Well, I'm sure you'll have plenty to do in your perfect world ~rolls eyes~
And as for things in my house that have no 'use' I have plenty. Crystals, necklaces, a globe, pencils, pens, etc. Things I have never used, nor worn and yet sit in my house all the same. I don't wear jewellery but yet I still have necklaces and rings, My geography is terrible yet I still have my little untouched globe. I bought this stuff for the purpose of having it... it has no use, it doesn't do anything constructive yet I bought them anyway because I liked them.
Guess 'God' 'bought' me because <b>he</b> enjoys me huh? I'll never be a christian, nor really worship any deity and I'll still say the same on my deathbed, like a large quantity of people on these UK shores.
The truth is, if we're useless to god because we'll never acknowledge it and it really is omnipotent then it would already know that we'd never worship it... If that's the case how come we're still here? I've seen athiests go to their deathbeds without a single faith in some hovering great one after years of full and happy lives and yet I've seen some christians snatched from the face of the earth before their time despite their faith. What's that? An early reward?
Does god love the people <b>he</b> crushes under piles of rock, burns screaming with molten lava, blasts apart with waves of explosive concussion or splatters under crushing weights of water? There's some real love there for cancer victims who die a slow death, knowing that their life will end and suffering every day until death is kind enough to relieve them from their anguish and pain.
I wouldn't wish such suffering on people I hated with all my heart yet god 'loves' these people o.O
A game is something you enjoy... to me life is just a greater game; something with no purpose but the simple savouring of it's every moment. For you it's living on rules, regulations and whatnot cast down you 100000th hand in text and word believing in a god you say loves you yet never gives you the simple physical comfort of even a hug, or reassurance it exists as it swipes thousands of lives off the face of the planet each day.
The worst part of all is once it's over you'll no longer have any point whether you're right or not. Heaven is just life on earth without the bad stuff but without the bad stuff, what good is the good?
Even if it was just some weird limbo wrapped in happiness you'd still have no point, and how long before happiness itself just becomes another wearisome impulse? =3
No... I prefer the idea of a pleasant life filled with the balances of both up and down with a conclusion at the end that gives eternal peace... the peace of nothing. No worries, no pain, no suffering, no thoughts, no sleepless nights, no heartbreak, nothing. An empty abyss in which all are equal and there's no love nor hate, laughter or pain, or even a consciousness to worry about the lack of either <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Serene... isn't it? ^^
"In 1961, the US Supreme Court defined it was a religion, endorsing the fact that, although it denies the existence of God, it is a carefully structured belief system. The core of that system is the bizarre conviction that man exists by accident and will end in annihilation, but in that brief blip separating the two he is of immense value and dignity and bears important rational and ethical responsibility. The humanist believes that he comes from nothing and is going nowhere, yet insists that the journey itself is of monumental significance. Small wonder that R. C. Sproul calls modern secular humanism 'one of the stupidist beliefs ever concocted' (R. C. Sproul, Table Talk, Oct 1993, Ligonier)" (John Blanchard, Does God believe in Athiests, a conclusion at the end of a 25 page chapter on why humanism is wrong.) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why am I rebring up this little gem? Because I didnt see one person even make an attempt to answer it. Some people got offended, some said "You shouldnt say nasty things" or "How would you like it if we said that about you", but no one said, thats wrong and here's why.
So please, I'd love to hear it - what is critically wrong with the above statement? Or is it correct?
EDIT To gemin - your entire arguement above has been used and answered in the Arguement From Evil thread
Just because its easy doesnt mean its wrong. There are two ways to get money out of the bank - shoot your way in and take it, or wait in a que and withdraw it from the teller. Now which is right, which is wrong, and which is easier?
Dont you think that if there was a loving and just God that he would make it possible for EVERYONE to be able to be forgiven? Does God really **** you off because he offers everyone the same opportunity? Wow.
EDIT Oh - and I dont believe he actually went and stayed in Hell when he was dead, I do believe that he made a stopoff to grab the keys, but that was it. Sin transfer Skulk, the Jews had been doing it for years. Sacrafice an animal and dump your sin on it so it takes the blame. But animals are quite the same as a perfect human - and a perfect human can obviously take the blame for as much sin as s/he likes on himself/herself. Take the blame, pay the prices, and if you happen to be both fully human and fully God, ressurect urself and everyone goes home happy that wants to.
"Time for lust, time for lie
Time to kiss your life goodbye
Send me money, send me green, heaven you will meet
Make a contribution and you'll get the better seat"
Anyways... I kinda answered that one when it was posted; Anything looks stupid if you word it correctly.
I can't talk much for humanism because I only found out it even existed thanks to this thread but seeing as it's a lot like the way I live my life I'll just answer it best I can with my own beliefs ^^
The 'brief blip' between life and death is of immense value to the person living it and effects everyone it interacts with. You might not change the cosmos but the key factor is enjoying life and helping others to do the same.
If we're talking about it on the grand scale of 'humanity' rather than an idividual, we exist on a small planet within a small solar system that lies in an incredible sparkling field which we can't even begin to really measure the size of. Whether we as a race continue and change or vanish forever... does it matter? I find it much easier to sit and wonder at all the possibilities than to play with the self-important ideal that 'Judgement day' will come and the earth will be remade and all that nonsense. What then? What after that? The story told by the bible, whether true or not is a small twinkle in the potential lifetime of existence itself and the actual time of humanity on this piece of rock equates to a tiny droplet in the timescale of the planet. If you're so wound up in having some great significance the story up to and including judgement day is too small... what happens after that 'happily ever after' tale? This is life we're talking about, not some words on a page... it keeps going long after the story has finished.
The paragraph up there is merely a biased quote from a biased book, Given the time and inclination I'm sure one of us could go off and find some anti-christian literature that says in it's lopsided opinion Christianity is a bunch of lunatics and fools living in a daydream where the earth is a big disk, with a glass dome where angels pour water through trapdoors to make rain and god sits on an armchair made of cotton-candy clouds.
Is there anything else that needs to be said about that silly quote? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Just because its easy doesnt mean its wrong. There are two ways to get money out of the bank - shoot your way in and take it, or wait in a que and withdraw it from the teller. Now which is right, which is wrong, and which is easier?
Dont you think that if there was a loving and just God that he would make it possible for EVERYONE to be able to be forgiven? Does God really **** you off because he offers everyone the same opportunity? Wow.
EDIT Oh - and I dont believe he actually went and stayed in Hell when he was dead, I do believe that he made a stopoff to grab the keys, but that was it. Sin transfer Skulk, the Jews had been doing it for years. Sacrafice an animal and dump your sin on it so it takes the blame. But animals are quite the same as a perfect human - and a perfect human can obviously take the blame for as much sin as s/he likes on himself/herself. Take the blame, pay the prices, and if you happen to be both fully human and fully God, ressurect urself and everyone goes home happy that wants to. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Really? I could have sworn that animals were sacrificed to show your devotion to God. Back when that sort of thing was done more often, killing one of your animals needlessly was a huge waste of resources, thus by doing it you were saying "Yo God, Thinking of you buddy!". But thats all beside the point.
You're right easiest != wrong, but it does make one susspicious. You have of course heard the saying "If it seems to good to be true, it probably is".
Anyways... I kinda answered that one when it was posted; Anything looks stupid if you word it correctly.
I can't talk much for humanism because I only found out it even existed thanks to this thread but seeing as it's a lot like the way I live my life I'll just answer it best I can with my own beliefs ^^
The 'brief blip' between life and death is of immense value to the person living it and effects everyone it interacts with. You might not change the cosmos but the key factor is enjoying life and helping others to do the same.
If we're talking about it on the grand scale of 'humanity' rather than an idividual, we exist on a small planet within a small solar system that lies in an incredible sparkling field which we can't even begin to really measure the size of. Whether we as a race continue and change or vanish forever... does it matter? I find it much easier to sit and wonder at all the possibilities than to play with the self-important ideal that 'Judgement day' will come and the earth will be remade and all that nonsense. What then? What after that? The story told by the bible, whether true or not is a small twinkle in the potential lifetime of existence itself and the actual time of humanity on this piece of rock equates to a tiny droplet in the timescale of the planet. If you're so wound up in having some great significance the story up to and including judgement day is too small... what happens after that 'happily ever after' tale? This is life we're talking about, not some words on a page... it keeps going long after the story has finished.
The paragraph up there is merely a biased quote from a biased book, Given the time and inclination I'm sure one of us could go off and find some anti-christian literature that says in it's lopsided opinion Christianity is a bunch of lunatics and fools living in a daydream where the earth is a big disk, with a glass dome where angels pour water through trapdoors to make rain and god sits on an armchair made of cotton-candy clouds.
Is there anything else that needs to be said about that silly quote? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am completely sure you could, as I am completely sure I could answer said qoute when (not if) you find it.
However I dont feel you have answered fully what Blanchard was saying. I need a precise reason why you are special and important and have certain responsibilities. Sure a person feels his life to be valuable, but why does that MAKE it valuable? Why is the key factor enjoying life and helping others to do the same? Do you get a buzz from it? If so, what if you got the same buzz from tearing his spinal column out? Is that any better or worse, if its all about the buzz?
However, Blanchard is talking on the grand scale of humanity - and I feel that he summarized the humanist point of view pretty darn well. We came from nothing, we are going to nothing, but we are all special, unique and have certain responsiblities between nothingness and nothingness. It sounds crazy to me. Now Blanchard didnt just whip that out and lay it down on the table, he wrote 25 pages or so before it analysing humanism, and that was merely his conclusion. I have read the book myself, and I found it thoroughly enjoyable and very readable. Of course he starts out with a bias - but who doesnt? Dont give me scientists or I'll scream <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
EDIT If the story told by the Bible is true, then its not a twinkle. In this vast universe, there is a God that cares very much for each and every human - and is working to a plan. Despite the granduer and boggling size of the universe, we are very much a major item of His focus.
It almost makes it sound like god is playing by some higher powers rules and had to appease them instead ~blink~
<b>Marine posts fast edit:</b> lol, you squeezed that in while I was typing my ephiphany ^^
It might seem crazy to you, but then again it seems crazy to me that you need humanity to have some great purpose. I think it's just a case of clashing mindsets =3
While you find that bible and whatnot makes sense to you and you can empathise with it, I find it kinda silly and get frightened that people would spend their lives on something that to me personally seems like a waste. But it means something to them as my own beliefs mean something to me and I'm sure there's no end of people with their deities who think I'm completely bonkers and wasting my time living the way I do too <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
It almost makes it sound like god is playing by some higher powers rules and had to appease them instead ~blink~
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That brings up another point, if Jesus is supposedly an incarnation of God, why did God punish himself? Is'nt he perfect, and thus beyond such things?
It almost makes it sound like god is playing by some higher powers rules and had to appease them instead ~blink~
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That brings up another point, if Jesus is supposedly an incarnation of God, why did God punish himself? Is'nt he perfect, and thus beyond such things? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
All people usually accept the idea of a Loving and All-powerful God, but the third quality that is overlooked is just.
Exodus 34:6 And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, "The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness,
7 maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished;
_____
2 Corinthians 5:21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
Or : As the guilty, we need something to take away our sins. But black and black do not make white. God sent his son to be the perfect being that Sin would not destroy, could not destroy, to take all that Sin upon himself.
Which, in effect, made sin powerless.