<!--QuoteBegin--kavasa+Nov 24 2003, 03:51 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kavasa @ Nov 24 2003, 03:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If I had seen a team using tfac and elec a month ago I probably would've laughed at them, but we used tfac/elec/phase lockdown to win our game vs BM<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hear hear.
Honestly with 2.0's greater strategic depth, I think unpredictability is a real asset, and one that a lot of people don't understand. Just because myth has never seen it before he assumes it's awful - but then most Americans thought phases and sieges were a waste of time until about a month ago, where Euros have been using them since 2.0's release. A minor clerification though - stf made use of tfac and two turrets. I didn't say any electrification, except on a node which was used to (inneffectively) guard a phase in the final half in which I doubt either team was playing their best game.
I also think the 2 arms labs thing is pretty gimmicky - if you've got the resources to have 2 arms labs running constantly, you're clearly dominating so hard you could do just about anything and win, so.
I had a long-ish conversation with the Ozzies about fades in IRC. I contended that they can and have take down HA squads with (and sometimes without) the assistance of umbra, and the Ozzies contended that couldn't possibly be the case if the HA were decent shots. Considering earlier comments about strategic open-mindedness, I'd say they should reconsider that opinion. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not with umbra. With onos stomp, yes.
Right now in 2.01 umbra blocks what... 1/3 of the shots? That's 3 shots instead of 2 to massacre the fade. Meaning the fade must run just as fast from the marines, and the advantage with HA is they can heal real fast. Much faster than any alien evolution, and they can also keep pushing forward the entire time.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It is a shame though finding a server that would accomodate the two hemispheres connections :/ <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sure it wouldn't be impossible to have a tournament, just really hard. We'd have to run some tests and see if we could find a game where we both lagged, or perhaps 2 rounds on an NZ server and 2 rounds on a west coast american server. I'd say that would be about fair.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->the advantage with HA is they can heal real fast. Much faster than any alien evolution, and they can also keep pushing forward the entire time.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not so. Even without adren, I can blink around HA until they're out of ammo - every time some poor sod pulls out a welder, you're on him like a sack of potatoes. With fade blink, unless you screw up, there's no reason you'll ever go below about 180 hitpoints. With two fades you can always have one blinking around and one landing to swipe someone twice - and that's 100 points of damage.
In other words: you put constant pressure on the HA and never allow them to weld. Eventually they go down, assuming sufficiently open territory.
You know I'm not talking theory - you saw 2 of our fades bring down 5 evil HA, from their top string before the recent drama.
<!--QuoteBegin--kavasa+Nov 24 2003, 04:09 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kavasa @ Nov 24 2003, 04:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->the advantage with HA is they can heal real fast. Much faster than any alien evolution, and they can also keep pushing forward the entire time.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not so. Even without adren, I can blink around HA until they're out of ammo - every time some poor sod pulls out a welder, you're on him like a sack of potatoes. With fade blink, unless you screw up, there's no reason you'll ever go below about 180 hitpoints. With two fades you can always have one blinking around and one landing to swipe someone twice - and that's 100 points of damage.
In other words: you put constant pressure on the HA and never allow them to weld. Eventually they go down, assuming sufficiently open territory.
You know I'm not talking theory - you saw 2 of our fades bring down 5 evil HA, from their top string before the recent drama. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> There's a big hole in your argument:
Heavies never fire.
Those heavies you got against evil was due to **** poor marine tatics;
Not only did most of them shoot at the hive at the same time, but they also stood there in a little cramped hallway in the vincity of the healing aura of the hive. They should have seiged if they couldn't have done a little proper squad work there. Not to mention it was 4 heavies.
Next, speaking of **** poor tatics, I watched the demo's of the [XP] vs. stf , and I must say it was perhaps the best pub game I've ever watched. It's like these guys knew each other or something.
I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but the low level of tatics I saw used were astounding...
Lets see, I'll start with [XP], on round one. Marines: You guys got level 1 armor about 10 min into the game. Hell, it wasn't lv. 1 armor, it was your first upgrade. Not good. Instead of building 4 comm chairs on random places around the map and spreading your six men thin, why don't you get upgrades instead and work in pairs? Your aim was decent. Not bad, but against better skulks I'd say you'd fare for the worse. Your shotgun rush on their hive was really good, great way to take control of the fact that stf had no scouting on your forces whatsoever. You should always exploit stuff like that. You wasted your res very badly, and the comm did an average job on the medspam. You should have focused on more upgrades and teamwork. Rarely did you move out together in large groups. I don't know if rambo's are part of your strategy, but you shouldn't rely on them if they keep dying, or if you are going to send out rambo's with no upgrades. However, I'd have to say your node control was very good. stf had little communication. No skulk teamwork whatsoever. I saw a lot of skulks doing sucide charges. Not one person on your team could bunny hop it appeared. Very little parasiting. No skulk team work such as bait and switch tatics. Bad bad bad bad. One fade, who was good at fighting, but you could have been a lot more agressive. I saw the game go on a lot longer than it should have because of unagressive aliens even though the marines had no upgrades. I'd say continual skulk rushes could have killed [XP] 5 minutes into the game. They were constantly split up. You guys ramboed worse than the marines did. It was very bad. Most of your encounters looked like skulks running around the map looking for marines who then happened to chance by a marine, and then you promptly charged. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> The fighting tatics seemed to be minimal if anything. I also noticed that when you guys finnally killed their main base which had no defence for any of the entire game, you had 1 skulk and one fade. The fade killed the obs and the skulk got the IP. Then, the fade left after both were dead, the skulk started to chew the res node at the back over the proto lab, and the arms lab. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> First, the skulk should have killed the obs, as he kills buildings faster, and the fade should have been killing the IP, as the fade could easily spawn camp any marine. Next, killing higher marine tech, esp. the proto lab and arms lab are much better targets than a res node. You guys messed up on a lot of little things.
[XP], round two, aliens: Lots of skulk hero rambo's. You guys had a horrible score compared to stf, who probably had each member on their team with a 5 to 1 ratio. You guys really needed teamwork, more so than stf. None of you guys could bunny hop. Your gorges always died alone and afraid. It was very sad. Not a single fade either, a probably the worst example of res usage I've ever seen. Why get D chambers, if you aren't going to get fades. Incredibly incredibly poorly played alien round. No skulk teamwork, no bait and switch tatics, no ambushing, no fades... - absolutly terrible. Also, you guys could have won right at the begaining of the game by rushing their relocation spot. In fact, wo0tness nearly got the base, but instead of running back to the gorge that was slowly waddling his was up to the relocation spot (when he could have been there if he had bunny hopped), the skulk just stayed there and got shot once by the spawning marine. Very very poor performance. Stf, round two, marines: Not bad. Your relocation worked, but instead of just getting some much cheaper base d (MINES ANYONE... SHEESH) and getting a much vital part of the marine tech tree (you know, the armory... it's important) you went with 35 res on turrets. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> This slowed down your node growth and if [XP] wasn't bad at their alien game you would have lost. Sorry. Other than that, fairly good aim, better than the average pubber, and I the relocation spot you manged to take is good, but kinda negated by the fact that all you have to do is use the vent that goes right over it, and you never welded the vent. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> On top of that, your turrets didn't even protect the IP. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> Lots and lots of errors I would see costing you the game against a good clan.
Oh, and your double arms lab strat... Um... it wasn't a strat, all you did was beat the crap out of the alien team so much you had plenty of res to spare. On top of this, the double arms labs were to make up for the fact you didn't get any upgrades untill 6 minutes into the game.
Hopefully you guys continue to improve on your clan games, because if this is the cream of the crop, then you guys are sorely lacking.
I enjoyed watching these demo's. I mean, I really needed to clean out my throat, and nothing does it like a good laugh.
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> No offence, but these tactics were... questionable to say the least. I don't wanna hear that "OPEN YURO MINED TEHRE AER MANNEY TAKTICKS" because in all truth, some are obviously more powerful than others. I could go sensory first, for instance, or attempt a hive mine rush, or the infamous no chamber onos rush... But there's the possibility these strats miiiight not work.
I don't wanna any "OMG I OWNS JOO NUB" replys. Do some thinking. Think mathmatically. Mathmatically and in practice... these strats really held no ground and had no substance behind them, aside origionallity.
And now, lets look a bit at the skill lv. If you guys wanna reply with the OMG WER OXORSST FU nubZ, you guys didn't even Bhop or freakin parasite for that matter. Yeah. But then again, where could the advantage to a temporary wallhack be? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> I guess I should be open to more strats, that no parasite strat clearly owns.
I'm sorry if you find this offensive, but somtimes, the truth hurts.
Make them fire, duh. Present that tantalizing target for just a fraction of a second. Land, switch to claws, swipe once, blink away again. I've done it on pubs and I've done it in matches and I've done it on the fencing strip. Present people a target they can't resist and they take the shot. Eventually, depredations from the fades or from your friendly local skulk or from OTs will make a heavy pull out a welder - every time some poor schmuck gets the welder out, you pound on him.
It's really not that hard.
However, you are correct that it's possible to be damn near unkillable as HA, with proper tactics, fade blocking, etc. Heavies holding a phase and seige location are pretty close to invulnerable. The trick is getting them stalled in a big open room en-route.
Re: open-mindedness of tactical thinking, that goes both ways. Decision of whether to go with phase and ups or HA or JP or reloc or turrets or mines or whatever all depends on your team, your comm, the map, and your opponent. Either way, talk about theory only goes so far - eventually you just have to find a neutral server and play a few rounds and see who wins.
<!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Nov 24 2003, 02:59 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Nov 24 2003, 02:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> perhaps 2 rounds on an NZ server and 2 rounds on a west coast american server. I'd say that would be about fair. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Or 2 rounds on a server in Sydney and 2 on a server in Japan. It's about the same!
<!--QuoteBegin--dislexus+Nov 24 2003, 08:48 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (dislexus @ Nov 24 2003, 08:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Nov 24 2003, 02:59 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Nov 24 2003, 02:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> perhaps 2 rounds on an NZ server and 2 rounds on a west coast american server. I'd say that would be about fair. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Or 2 rounds on a server in Sydney and 2 on a server in Japan. It's about the same!
NZ <> Australia. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> No it's not.
A west coast clan would be fair only for those on the west coast of America. Those in the east coast of america get about 30 more ping.
The west coast only goes across the pacific.
Next, we would play you in a server in NZ, I mean for gods sake, it's like me playing on a server in the west coast...
<!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Nov 24 2003, 08:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Nov 24 2003, 08:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Next, we would play you in a server in NZ, I mean for gods sake, it's like me playing on a server in the west coast... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Forlorn, you don't really understand how the traffic is routed from some ISP's here in Australia unless you live here. I 'ping' lower to the west coast of the states than I do to NZ.
NZ server = 300-350ish West Coast = 250-300ish
That was my point, in case you missed it. I was being sarcastic, and I know it doesn't always carry well on the intarweb.
I heard martigan doesnt like me <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Andrew, Hybrid fell even more into inactiveness during the NSPC comp due to exams so we pulled out and took a month holiday. In the reconstruction mode of the team now.
<!--QuoteBegin--dislexus+Nov 24 2003, 09:21 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (dislexus @ Nov 24 2003, 09:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Nov 24 2003, 08:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Nov 24 2003, 08:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Next, we would play you in a server in NZ, I mean for gods sake, it's like me playing on a server in the west coast... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Forlorn, you don't really understand how the traffic is routed from some ISP's here in Australia unless you live here. I 'ping' lower to the west coast of the states than I do to NZ.
NZ server = 300-350ish West Coast = 250-300ish
That was my point, in case you missed it. I was being sarcastic, and I know it doesn't always carry well on the intarweb.
NZ <> Australia. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh okay, then some rounds in east coast Austrilia and some rounds in west coast USA.
Yes the final was approximately.... 15 hours ago now.
In the first post fig found <a href='http://www.eddingschronicles.com/fansite/timezone.htm' target='_blank'>this timezone conversion website</a> which you may find useful in future.
The HLTV demo of the final (and the 2nd leg, and the first half server crash!) should be up <a href='http://www.nsplayer.com' target='_blank'>here</a> soon enough.
Forlorn: We appreciate your closed mindedness, your arrogance, and your ability to do anything but think outside of the box.
Really, we do.
Hopefully we can teach you a few lessons when you finally realise that you cannot judge an entire community and its strategies by the results of two somewhat sub-standard games (no offence to either clan, as they have both performed much better in the past).
I would actually prefer that you keep this point of view. Perhaps we can make you pay dearly for it when the time comes.
Thankyou to the others (kavasa for example) who are able to sustain a more level-minded approach to evaluating these two games. But please keep in mind: these are two games played by the same two clans.
Thankfully HAMBONE has the most mature reply. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I have to admit the tactics being described sound unorthodox to the USA to say the least. It could mean they are way behind us or maybe they are way ahead of us. If I had seen a team using tfac and elec a month ago I probably would've laughed at them, but we used tfac/elec/phase lockdown to win our game vs BM and its probably the best tactic we've ever done. Two arms lab sounds kinda like a gimmick, I can't imagine a scenario where you could keep both of them constantly upgrading and still have enough money left for everything else, but I cant deny that I could be wrong. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Absolutely. I've noticed in some US games that there isn't always a lot of node dominance. For us, node dominance is key. Dual arms labs can give you 2/1 marines by the time a Fade appears, and 3/3 by an Onos (which, as you've hit a hive by now as well, makes them walking target practice to even LMG marines). But only if you have the res flow. We didn't dual arms in that final match because XP did a great job on our nodes, so we changed tack. And keep in mind if you do dual arms you don't go proto until later, if at all, investing that res into ups. Most games where we decide to use dual arms we never even need to build a proto, as 3/3 marines with phase plus siege or just simply shooting gets the job done everytime. The final wasn't a best play for either clan by a long shot, download some of the earlier matches or pracs for both clans to get a better idea of how they play.
Forlorn:
Thanks for the analysis but as has been said both clans consider it one of their worst games, and every clan has bad games. If you want to analyse tactics, please do it over more than just two matches. And the last round wasn't a round at all, we had already won due to coming first in match points in the tourney, so neither side played the last round properly, it was just a muck around (something it seems only Kavasa noticed). And you mention mines for base D? Download any of our prior demos and you'll see just how well we use mines -- but this game, no, we didn't and we didn't need to either. The rush on both hives was all that was needed. And as for an armory? What do you need an armory at the start for? We play to dominate nodes, and that's also another 15 res for another early node. Base def is fine with turrets and marines, and then mines come out when the armory is dropped. No, the armory normally isn't that late, but again those games were not our best play and XP did a great job keeping the pressure up. You forgo a TF in your strats and invest that res into nodes, we forgo an armory and invest that res into nodes. Both strategies work fine.
Wow, this is like a bigger rift between Aus and the USA then the Eastie and Westie rift in Australia <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->.
Honestly, if it works, who really cares? You can't exactly critises unless you've come against it.
<!--QuoteBegin--[A]pe+Nov 24 2003, 11:35 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([A]pe @ Nov 24 2003, 11:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Forlorn: We appreciate your closed mindedness, your arrogance, and your ability to do anything but think outside of the box.
Really, we do.
Hopefully we can teach you a few lessons when you finally realise that you cannot judge an entire community and its strategies by the results of two somewhat sub-standard games (no offence to either clan, as they have both performed much better in the past).
I would actually prefer that you keep this point of view. Perhaps we can make you pay dearly for it when the time comes.
Thankyou to the others (kavasa for example) who are able to sustain a more level-minded approach to evaluating these two games. But please keep in mind: these are two games played by the same two clans.
Think about it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You don't think I've ever tried your strats before?
Done that, been there.
I've tried relocations, gorge rushes of all kinds, and all sorts of odd ball strats right down to a lerk rush before. Don't say I'm being close minded. Most of the clans who knock the aus community for doing such weird **** strats are only doing so because they know from experience.
How would I sign up my clan for AusNS? Even with my ping of 300+++, I'd still be interesting to tryout....
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What do you need an armory at the start for?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well considering the armory is needed to get the arms lab and not to mention by holding back on the armory untill 7-8 minutes into the game you forfiet up much more res on dropping ammo packs, and also considering that the armory preforms base defense in the form of mines for an addition 10 res I'd say you'd got yourself quite a bargen there.
<!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Nov 25 2003, 12:10 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Nov 25 2003, 12:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> How would I sign up my clan for AusNS? Even with my ping of 300+++, I'd still be interesting to tryout.... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Currently, I don't think that <a href='http://www.ausns.org' target='_blank'>AusNS</a> are running a tournament.
But at <a href='http://www.nsplayer.org.au' target='_blank'>NSPlayer</a> we're running an initiation tournament for new clans. You may want to sign up for that. Or possibly, the Ladder we currently we have going there also.
<!--QuoteBegin--Mr Charisma+Nov 25 2003, 01:14 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mr Charisma @ Nov 25 2003, 01:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Nov 25 2003, 12:10 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Nov 25 2003, 12:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> How would I sign up my clan for AusNS? Even with my ping of 300+++, I'd still be interesting to tryout.... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Currently, I don't think that <a href='http://www.ausns.org' target='_blank'>AusNS</a> are running a tournament.
But at <a href='http://www.nsplayer.org.au' target='_blank'>NSPlayer</a> we're running an initiation tournament for new clans. You may want to sign up for that. Or possibly, the Ladder we currently we have going there also. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, whatever, that's what I meant...
AusNS is just my abbreviation for Austrialian NS...
And I don't want to sign up for new clans, I want to just enter the standard tourney.
We at <a href='http://www.nsplayer.org.au' target='_blank'>NSPlayer</a> are currently deciding what our next standard tournament should be, and what style of play it should have which is way we have a poll up for ppl to vote which style they want, so go to our site and vote on the right side. with 2.1 not far away, we may have to wait for that.
I think what Forlorn is trying to say is he has tried all these strats and thinks the clan he's in which is sub I think ? Would be able to crush any aus clan using those strats with a good old american jetpack rush. With reasonable pings of course. Probably true of course ive never scrimmed an aus clan so I wouldn't know.
Let me quote myself just for your benefit: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Thanks for the analysis but as has been said both clans consider it one of their worst games, and every clan has bad games... No, the armory normally isn't that late, but again those games were not our best play and XP did a great job keeping the pressure up. You forgo a TF in your strats and invest that res into nodes, we forgo an armory and invest that res into nodes. Both strategies work fine. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I do not disagree on the value of an armory, but I do disagree with your almighty righteous dictation that you need one at the start. You spend 35 res (at least, as you have to replace mines) on armory + mines. We spend 35 res on tf + 2 turrets, which don't need to be replaced and which generate R4K, and even provides the option of electricity if we feel like denying the aliens the nodes closest to them. I'll repeat again since you missed it the first time around: normally we delay the armory only a minute or two, and the payoff is well worth it. That one game you've watched to-judge-all-others-by the armory was delayed longer due to great pressure by XP. In fact if you bothered to rejoin after the server crashed you'd see our armory going down early as we geared up for a sudden rush which we knew XP wouldn't be expecting.
It seems, unlike your playstyle, we can adapt to circumstance and maximise the potential of the map. But go right ahead, keep on assuming your way is the best way and the only way. Unlike you I recognise the value of multiple and different strategies, and as I've demonstrated we mix and match accordingly. And we win.
Some good points, some bad points. (ie, lack of parasiting in some rounds is correct, and since we have a clan of 20 ppl we've been abusing the non parasiters to get back into the habit).
Are stf and xp amongst the best clans in aus? Yes. And we do know each other pretty well.
Are they the best shots or bunnyhoppers? No.
XP has played 2 matches against US clans in CAL. We won the first 2-0 and lost the second 2-0. The ping was 200-300 vs 10-20 first game, and 350+ vs >100 the second. We're yet to get a USA clan to play us on an aus server, but we havent asked everyone yet. Please feel free to join #clanxp-ns on etg if you feel up for a game at 350 ping against us and we can work out a time.
In case you havent realised the need in NS is to match your gameplay vs your opponent. Feel free to JP rush a hive with oc's and lerks. And if thats what you always do and your opponents have never considered countering it, then I dont know what to say....
But they were FUNNY random comm chairs, especially since I even told them before the match I'd be doing it. And if you care to watch the XP match previous to the stf one you'll see how the random comm chair actually works, especially when you know your opponent.
me and rocky from [whc] tried random comm chairs in a pub game once. worked very well lol. at first everyone was like WTH are u doing, but they got used to it. we put a comm chair and IP next to every res we took, and had one res node as our 'main base'. we linked them all with phase gates... good way to dominate a map.
still won in around 12 minutes. map was hera, 24 players. dont think it would work with, say 16 or something.
kk dont laugh at me now <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
The demos are online now. For a writeup of the tournament, this match, a quick interview with stf and of cause the HLTV demo, click <a href='http://nsplayer.org.au/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=1030' target='_blank'>here</a>.
Comments
Hear hear.
Honestly with 2.0's greater strategic depth, I think unpredictability is a real asset, and one that a lot of people don't understand. Just because myth has never seen it before he assumes it's awful - but then most Americans thought phases and sieges were a waste of time until about a month ago, where Euros have been using them since 2.0's release. A minor clerification though - stf made use of tfac and two turrets. I didn't say any electrification, except on a node which was used to (inneffectively) guard a phase in the final half in which I doubt either team was playing their best game.
I also think the 2 arms labs thing is pretty gimmicky - if you've got the resources to have 2 arms labs running constantly, you're clearly dominating so hard you could do just about anything and win, so.
I had a long-ish conversation with the Ozzies about fades in IRC. I contended that they can and have take down HA squads with (and sometimes without) the assistance of umbra, and the Ozzies contended that couldn't possibly be the case if the HA were decent shots. Considering earlier comments about strategic open-mindedness, I'd say they should reconsider that opinion. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not with umbra. With onos stomp, yes.
Right now in 2.01 umbra blocks what... 1/3 of the shots? That's 3 shots instead of 2 to massacre the fade. Meaning the fade must run just as fast from the marines, and the advantage with HA is they can heal real fast. Much faster than any alien evolution, and they can also keep pushing forward the entire time.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It is a shame though finding a server that would accomodate the two hemispheres connections :/
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I'm sure it wouldn't be impossible to have a tournament, just really hard. We'd have to run some tests and see if we could find a game where we both lagged, or perhaps 2 rounds on an NZ server and 2 rounds on a west coast american server. I'd say that would be about fair.
Not so. Even without adren, I can blink around HA until they're out of ammo - every time some poor sod pulls out a welder, you're on him like a sack of potatoes. With fade blink, unless you screw up, there's no reason you'll ever go below about 180 hitpoints. With two fades you can always have one blinking around and one landing to swipe someone twice - and that's 100 points of damage.
In other words: you put constant pressure on the HA and never allow them to weld. Eventually they go down, assuming sufficiently open territory.
You know I'm not talking theory - you saw 2 of our fades bring down 5 evil HA, from their top string before the recent drama.
Not so. Even without adren, I can blink around HA until they're out of ammo - every time some poor sod pulls out a welder, you're on him like a sack of potatoes. With fade blink, unless you screw up, there's no reason you'll ever go below about 180 hitpoints. With two fades you can always have one blinking around and one landing to swipe someone twice - and that's 100 points of damage.
In other words: you put constant pressure on the HA and never allow them to weld. Eventually they go down, assuming sufficiently open territory.
You know I'm not talking theory - you saw 2 of our fades bring down 5 evil HA, from their top string before the recent drama. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's a big hole in your argument:
Heavies never fire.
Those heavies you got against evil was due to **** poor marine tatics;
Not only did most of them shoot at the hive at the same time, but they also stood there in a little cramped hallway in the vincity of the healing aura of the hive. They should have seiged if they couldn't have done a little proper squad work there. Not to mention it was 4 heavies.
Next, speaking of **** poor tatics, I watched the demo's of the [XP] vs. stf , and I must say it was perhaps the best pub game I've ever watched. It's like these guys knew each other or something.
I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but the low level of tatics I saw used were astounding...
Lets see, I'll start with [XP], on round one. Marines: You guys got level 1 armor about 10 min into the game. Hell, it wasn't lv. 1 armor, it was your first upgrade. Not good. Instead of building 4 comm chairs on random places around the map and spreading your six men thin, why don't you get upgrades instead and work in pairs? Your aim was decent. Not bad, but against better skulks I'd say you'd fare for the worse.
Your shotgun rush on their hive was really good, great way to take control of the fact that stf had no scouting on your forces whatsoever. You should always exploit stuff like that. You wasted your res very badly, and the comm did an average job on the medspam. You should have focused on more upgrades and teamwork. Rarely did you move out together in large groups. I don't know if rambo's are part of your strategy, but you shouldn't rely on them if they keep dying, or if you are going to send out rambo's with no upgrades. However, I'd have to say your node
control was very good.
stf had little communication. No skulk teamwork whatsoever. I saw a lot of skulks doing sucide charges. Not one person on your team could bunny hop it appeared. Very little parasiting. No skulk team work such as bait and switch tatics. Bad bad bad bad. One fade, who was good at fighting, but you could have been a lot more agressive. I saw the game go on a lot longer than it should have because of unagressive aliens even though the marines had no upgrades. I'd say continual skulk rushes could have killed [XP] 5 minutes into the game. They were constantly split up. You guys ramboed worse than the marines did. It was very bad. Most of your encounters looked like skulks running around the map looking for marines who then happened to chance by a marine, and then you promptly charged. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> The fighting tatics seemed to be minimal if anything. I also noticed that when you guys finnally killed their main base which had no defence for any of the entire game, you had 1 skulk and one fade. The fade killed the obs and the skulk got the IP. Then, the fade left after both were dead, the skulk started to chew the res node at the back over the proto lab, and the arms lab. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> First, the skulk should have killed the obs, as he kills buildings faster, and the fade should have been killing the IP, as the fade could easily spawn camp any marine. Next, killing higher marine tech, esp. the proto lab and arms lab are much better targets than a res node. You guys messed up on a lot of little things.
[XP], round two, aliens:
Lots of skulk hero rambo's. You guys had a horrible score compared to stf, who probably had each member on their team with a 5 to 1 ratio. You guys really needed teamwork, more so than stf. None of you guys could bunny hop. Your gorges always died alone and afraid. It was very sad. Not a single fade either, a probably the worst example of res usage I've ever seen. Why get D chambers, if you aren't going to get fades. Incredibly incredibly poorly played alien round. No skulk teamwork, no bait and switch tatics, no ambushing, no fades... - absolutly terrible. Also, you guys could have won right at the begaining of the game by rushing their relocation spot. In fact, wo0tness nearly got the base, but instead of running back to the gorge that was slowly waddling his was up to the relocation spot (when he could have been there if he had bunny hopped), the skulk just stayed there and got shot once by the spawning marine. Very very poor performance.
Stf, round two, marines:
Not bad. Your relocation worked, but instead of just getting some much cheaper base d (MINES ANYONE... SHEESH) and getting a much vital part of the marine tech tree (you know, the armory... it's important) you went with 35 res on turrets. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> This slowed down your node growth and if [XP] wasn't bad at their alien game you would have lost. Sorry. Other than that, fairly good aim, better than the average pubber, and I the relocation spot you manged to take is good, but kinda negated by the fact that all you have to do is use the vent that goes right over it, and you never welded the vent. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> On top of that, your turrets didn't even protect the IP. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> Lots and lots of errors I would see costing you the game against a good clan.
Oh, and your double arms lab strat... Um... it wasn't a strat, all you did was beat the crap out of the alien team so much you had plenty of res to spare. On top of this, the double arms labs were to make up for the fact you didn't get any upgrades untill 6 minutes into the game.
Hopefully you guys continue to improve on your clan games, because if this is the cream of the crop, then you guys are sorely lacking.
Much <3, Forlorn
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> No offence, but these tactics were... questionable to say the least. I don't wanna hear that "OPEN YURO MINED TEHRE AER MANNEY TAKTICKS" because in all truth, some are obviously more powerful than others. I could go sensory first, for instance, or attempt a hive mine rush, or the infamous no chamber onos rush... But there's the possibility these strats miiiight not work.
I don't wanna any "OMG I OWNS JOO NUB" replys. Do some thinking. Think mathmatically. Mathmatically and in practice... these strats really held no ground and had no substance behind them, aside origionallity.
And now, lets look a bit at the skill lv. If you guys wanna reply with the OMG WER OXORSST FU nubZ, you guys didn't even Bhop or freakin parasite for that matter. Yeah. But then again, where could the advantage to a temporary wallhack be? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> I guess I should be open to more strats, that no parasite strat clearly owns.
I'm sorry if you find this offensive, but somtimes, the truth hurts.
Make them fire, duh. Present that tantalizing target for just a fraction of a second. Land, switch to claws, swipe once, blink away again. I've done it on pubs and I've done it in matches and I've done it on the fencing strip. Present people a target they can't resist and they take the shot. Eventually, depredations from the fades or from your friendly local skulk or from OTs will make a heavy pull out a welder - every time some poor schmuck gets the welder out, you pound on him.
It's really not that hard.
However, you are correct that it's possible to be damn near unkillable as HA, with proper tactics, fade blocking, etc. Heavies holding a phase and seige location are pretty close to invulnerable. The trick is getting them stalled in a big open room en-route.
Re: open-mindedness of tactical thinking, that goes both ways. Decision of whether to go with phase and ups or HA or JP or reloc or turrets or mines or whatever all depends on your team, your comm, the map, and your opponent. Either way, talk about theory only goes so far - eventually you just have to find a neutral server and play a few rounds and see who wins.
Or 2 rounds on a server in Sydney and 2 on a server in Japan. It's about the same!
NZ <> Australia.
Or 2 rounds on a server in Sydney and 2 on a server in Japan. It's about the same!
NZ <> Australia. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
No it's not.
A west coast clan would be fair only for those on the west coast of America. Those in the east coast of america get about 30 more ping.
The west coast only goes across the pacific.
Next, we would play you in a server in NZ, I mean for gods sake, it's like me playing on a server in the west coast...
Forlorn, you don't really understand how the traffic is routed from some ISP's here in Australia unless you live here. I 'ping' lower to the west coast of the states than I do to NZ.
NZ server = 300-350ish
West Coast = 250-300ish
That was my point, in case you missed it. I was being sarcastic, and I know it doesn't always carry well on the intarweb.
NZ <> Australia.
Forlorn, you don't really understand how the traffic is routed from some ISP's here in Australia unless you live here. I 'ping' lower to the west coast of the states than I do to NZ.
NZ server = 300-350ish
West Coast = 250-300ish
That was my point, in case you missed it. I was being sarcastic, and I know it doesn't always carry well on the intarweb.
NZ <> Australia. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh okay, then some rounds in east coast Austrilia and some rounds in west coast USA.
[Edit]
I have this sinking feeling that i missed it....
[/Edit]
In the first post fig found <a href='http://www.eddingschronicles.com/fansite/timezone.htm' target='_blank'>this timezone conversion website</a> which you may find useful in future.
The HLTV demo of the final (and the 2nd leg, and the first half server crash!) should be up <a href='http://www.nsplayer.com' target='_blank'>here</a> soon enough.
Really, we do.
Hopefully we can teach you a few lessons when you finally realise that you cannot judge an entire community and its strategies by the results of two somewhat sub-standard games (no offence to either clan, as they have both performed much better in the past).
I would actually prefer that you keep this point of view. Perhaps we can make you pay dearly for it when the time comes.
Thankyou to the others (kavasa for example) who are able to sustain a more level-minded approach to evaluating these two games.
But please keep in mind: these are two games played by the same two clans.
Think about it.
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I have to admit the tactics being described sound unorthodox to the USA to say the least. It could mean they are way behind us or maybe they are way ahead of us. If I had seen a team using tfac and elec a month ago I probably would've laughed at them, but we used tfac/elec/phase lockdown to win our game vs BM and its probably the best tactic we've ever done. Two arms lab sounds kinda like a gimmick, I can't imagine a scenario where you could keep both of them constantly upgrading and still have enough money left for everything else, but I cant deny that I could be wrong.
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Absolutely. I've noticed in some US games that there isn't always a lot of node dominance. For us, node dominance is key. Dual arms labs can give you 2/1 marines by the time a Fade appears, and 3/3 by an Onos (which, as you've hit a hive by now as well, makes them walking target practice to even LMG marines). But only if you have the res flow. We didn't dual arms in that final match because XP did a great job on our nodes, so we changed tack. And keep in mind if you do dual arms you don't go proto until later, if at all, investing that res into ups. Most games where we decide to use dual arms we never even need to build a proto, as 3/3 marines with phase plus siege or just simply shooting gets the job done everytime. The final wasn't a best play for either clan by a long shot, download some of the earlier matches or pracs for both clans to get a better idea of how they play.
Forlorn:
Thanks for the analysis but as has been said both clans consider it one of their worst games, and every clan has bad games. If you want to analyse tactics, please do it over more than just two matches. And the last round wasn't a round at all, we had already won due to coming first in match points in the tourney, so neither side played the last round properly, it was just a muck around (something it seems only Kavasa noticed). And you mention mines for base D? Download any of our prior demos and you'll see just how well we use mines -- but this game, no, we didn't and we didn't need to either. The rush on both hives was all that was needed. And as for an armory? What do you need an armory at the start for? We play to dominate nodes, and that's also another 15 res for another early node. Base def is fine with turrets and marines, and then mines come out when the armory is dropped. No, the armory normally isn't that late, but again those games were not our best play and XP did a great job keeping the pressure up. You forgo a TF in your strats and invest that res into nodes, we forgo an armory and invest that res into nodes. Both strategies work fine.
Honestly, if it works, who really cares? You can't exactly critises unless you've come against it.
Really, we do.
Hopefully we can teach you a few lessons when you finally realise that you cannot judge an entire community and its strategies by the results of two somewhat sub-standard games (no offence to either clan, as they have both performed much better in the past).
I would actually prefer that you keep this point of view. Perhaps we can make you pay dearly for it when the time comes.
Thankyou to the others (kavasa for example) who are able to sustain a more level-minded approach to evaluating these two games.
But please keep in mind: these are two games played by the same two clans.
Think about it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't think I've ever tried your strats before?
Done that, been there.
I've tried relocations, gorge rushes of all kinds, and all sorts of odd ball strats right down to a lerk rush before. Don't say I'm being close minded. Most of the clans who knock the aus community for doing such weird **** strats are only doing so because they know from experience.
How would I sign up my clan for AusNS? Even with my ping of 300+++, I'd still be interesting to tryout....
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What do you need an armory at the start for?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well considering the armory is needed to get the arms lab and not to mention by holding back on the armory untill 7-8 minutes into the game you forfiet up much more res on dropping ammo packs, and also considering that the armory preforms base defense in the form of mines for an addition 10 res I'd say you'd got yourself quite a bargen there.
Currently, I don't think that <a href='http://www.ausns.org' target='_blank'>AusNS</a> are running a tournament.
But at <a href='http://www.nsplayer.org.au' target='_blank'>NSPlayer</a> we're running an initiation tournament for new clans. You may want to sign up for that. Or possibly, the Ladder we currently we have going there also.
Currently, I don't think that <a href='http://www.ausns.org' target='_blank'>AusNS</a> are running a tournament.
But at <a href='http://www.nsplayer.org.au' target='_blank'>NSPlayer</a> we're running an initiation tournament for new clans. You may want to sign up for that. Or possibly, the Ladder we currently we have going there also. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, whatever, that's what I meant...
AusNS is just my abbreviation for Austrialian NS...
And I don't want to sign up for new clans, I want to just enter the standard tourney.
Done that, been there.
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You don't think we've tried your strats before?
Been there, done that.
We at <a href='http://www.nsplayer.org.au' target='_blank'>NSPlayer</a> are currently deciding what our next standard tournament should be, and what style of play it should have which is way we have a poll up for ppl to vote which style they want, so go to our site and vote on the right side. with 2.1 not far away, we may have to wait for that.
NS is the only mod I know where tournaments are held with every new version of the game that is released, lol.
Let me quote myself just for your benefit:
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Thanks for the analysis but as has been said both clans consider it one of their worst games, and every clan has bad games... No, the armory normally isn't that late, but again those games were not our best play and XP did a great job keeping the pressure up. You forgo a TF in your strats and invest that res into nodes, we forgo an armory and invest that res into nodes. Both strategies work fine.
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I do not disagree on the value of an armory, but I do disagree with your almighty righteous dictation that you need one at the start. You spend 35 res (at least, as you have to replace mines) on armory + mines. We spend 35 res on tf + 2 turrets, which don't need to be replaced and which generate R4K, and even provides the option of electricity if we feel like denying the aliens the nodes closest to them. I'll repeat again since you missed it the first time around: normally we delay the armory only a minute or two, and the payoff is well worth it. That one game you've watched to-judge-all-others-by the armory was delayed longer due to great pressure by XP. In fact if you bothered to rejoin after the server crashed you'd see our armory going down early as we geared up for a sudden rush which we knew XP wouldn't be expecting.
It seems, unlike your playstyle, we can adapt to circumstance and maximise the potential of the map. But go right ahead, keep on assuming your way is the best way and the only way. Unlike you I recognise the value of multiple and different strategies, and as I've demonstrated we mix and match accordingly. And we win.
Are stf and xp amongst the best clans in aus? Yes. And we do know each other pretty well.
Are they the best shots or bunnyhoppers? No.
XP has played 2 matches against US clans in CAL. We won the first 2-0 and lost the second 2-0. The ping was 200-300 vs 10-20 first game, and 350+ vs >100 the second. We're yet to get a USA clan to play us on an aus server, but we havent asked everyone yet. Please feel free to join #clanxp-ns on etg if you feel up for a game at 350 ping against us and we can work out a time.
In case you havent realised the need in NS is to match your gameplay vs your opponent. Feel free to JP rush a hive with oc's and lerks. And if thats what you always do and your opponents have never considered countering it, then I dont know what to say....
still won in around 12 minutes. map was hera, 24 players. dont think it would work with, say 16 or something.
kk dont laugh at me now <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->