Double or not, this guy is a sissy. He said that they won't get him alive. He had a pistol and 2 AK47 and didn't used it against the soldiers or himself. He sacrified what was remaining of his honor to survive because he was peeing in his pants like a ninny.
The fact that he just kinda gave up when they found him hiding under a rug in someones basement points to him not being a big player in the resistance and his capture won't really affect the rebels. Ahh well.
I doubt this will sway many people to vote for bush. People have pretty much already made up their minds one way or annother about him and this is unlikely to change them.
Actually, it is unfortunate but many people in America are still swayed very easily one way or the other. They just go with the "winning" views. In regards to where Saddam should be tried it should be in an international court. If its in Iraq hate to tell ya but the majority still think he is great. In America? Hell no way to biased. As for him just giving up...... and this was the oh so dangerous man that was going to slaughter us all and was the reason we had to rush into his country like a 2 year old, on steroids, bent on vengeance. He didnt even take down 1 American knowing that most likely Americans are going to try him and that one way or the other he is definately getting the death penalty. Wow I glad we sacrificed so many American and Iraqis lives for him. Today alone he could have killed a million americans with a nuke he had hiding in that mudhole right? Only in America.
Topic approaching lockitude. Get yourselves under control, and lose some of the idiot rhetoric. At least pretend to be somewhat objective.
It's not a double - he was held for about 24 hours before they released the news so that they could get a positive DNA match.
As for people being easily swayed, that is a human characteristic, not an American one. I can point out people from all over the earth (and in this thread?) and how easily they are swayed. I can't see that anyone here should be upset that he was captured. Regardless of whether or not the invasion should have occurred, there is no way on earth this guy deserves to live or run a country.
Zig...I am Captain Planet!Join Date: 2002-10-23Member: 1576Members
edited December 2003
<!--QuoteBegin--reasa+Dec 15 2003, 12:39 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Dec 15 2003, 12:39 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--uranium - 235+Dec 14 2003, 07:31 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (uranium - 235 @ Dec 14 2003, 07:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Mullet+Dec 14 2003, 03:58 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mullet @ Dec 14 2003, 03:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Hopefully this event might turn some heads for George Dubya, and all the people who didn't trust him and didn't believe him will now.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If Bush gets a second term I'll gladly insert a bullet into his brain. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I can get you arrested for saying that <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> a more than vaguely serious death threat against ANYONE is a federal crime, sir.
Indeed I'll admit many people all over the world are easily swayed by either side, especially on Iraq. The question I ask is if it is that easy to change the minds of people just because Saddam was captuered then our country and the world is riding on minor turning points in history. I just dont find the idea that Saddam being being captured is a revelation and that should make everyone change their mind. That just doesn't sit well with me.
<!--QuoteBegin--MonsieurEvil+Dec 14 2003, 10:37 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Dec 14 2003, 10:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It's not a double - he was held for about 24 hours before they released the news so that they could get a positive DNA match. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> w00t.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Topic approaching lockitude. Get yourselves under control, and lose some of the idiot rhetoric. At least pretend to be somewhat objective. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Better said twice and remembered then once and forgotten. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Monse, come on now. Practice what you preach and try to be objective here. There are many people who are sad to see Saddam go. There are many reasons depending on where one stands.
- Some people benefitted under Saddam. Particularly members of the Baath party. Do they not count?
- Leaders of Islamic nations would be sad to see Saddam go and having a democracy propped up in the region. Their governments are oppressive, and none more-so than Saudi Arabia, which is why I would wager most foreign fighters come from there on Saudi royalty payrolls. Having a democracy in the region might instill some discontent in liberal youth of these oppressed countries.
- Many arabs were happy to see someone openly defy the United States, in the midst of other puppet or weak governments in the middle east. Jordan and Kuwait being the strongest examples. Their pro-US sentiment disgusts me greatly. They follow the US blindly, even if it means betraying fellow Arabs.
I lean a little to the third category. As much as Saddam has done to my family, I don't feel that foreign interests will form a better Iraq. I would rather have a Saddam that works for Iraq ruling Iraq, than a greedy corrupt degenerate and US puppet like Chalabi ruling Iraq.
I know the US has agendas in Iraq beyond humanitarian goals. Only fools watching Faux news would buy into that tripe. After 10 years of sanctions and millions dead due to malnutrition and sickness, it's time to play the angelic saviours. BS.
And to anyone who believes that Saddam is a coward for not resisting arrest. The man is 66 years old. He has been living in a hole for the past 6 months. He is probably malnutritioned and sick, his muscles have probably atrophied. What kind of resistance do you think he could have put forward?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As much as Saddam has done to my family, I don't feel that foreign interests will form a better Iraq.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's forming a better Iraqi football (soccer) team, and we all know that's what counts. They aim to be ready to try and qualify for the 2010 World Cup. Yeh for the beautiful game!
And, anyways, everyone knows what this thread was <i>actually</i> created for... So let us now discuss how long it would have taken the TSA to capture Saddam Hussein if he was a camping gorge with dcs (and a beard)!
<!--QuoteBegin--Jamil+Dec 15 2003, 04:56 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jamil @ Dec 15 2003, 04:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Monse, come on now. Practice what you preach and try to be objective here. There are many people who are sad to see Saddam go. There are many reasons depending on where one stands.
- Some people benefitted under Saddam. Particularly members of the Baath party. Do they not count?
- Leaders of Islamic nations would be sad to see Saddam go and having a democracy propped up in the region. Their governments are oppressive, and none more-so than Saudi Arabia, which is why I would wager most foreign fighters come from there on Saudi royalty payrolls. Having a democracy in the region might instill some discontent in liberal youth of these oppressed countries.
- Many arabs were happy to see someone openly defy the United States, in the midst of other puppet or weak governments in the middle east. Jordan and Kuwait being the strongest examples. Their pro-US sentiment disgusts me greatly. They follow the US blindly, even if it means betraying fellow Arabs.
I lean a little to the third category. As much as Saddam has done to my family, I don't feel that foreign interests will form a better Iraq. I would rather have a Saddam that works for Iraq ruling Iraq, than a greedy corrupt degenerate and US puppet like Chalabi ruling Iraq.
I know the US has agendas in Iraq beyond humanitarian goals. Only fools watching Faux news would buy into that tripe. After 10 years of sanctions and millions dead due to malnutrition and sickness, it's time to play the angelic saviours. BS.
And to anyone who believes that Saddam is a coward for not resisting arrest. The man is 66 years old. He has been living in a hole for the past 6 months. He is probably malnutritioned and sick, his muscles have probably atrophied. What kind of resistance do you think he could have put forward? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I dont think MonsE is picking sides here - he is refering to various rants by certian people bashing Bush etc......
<!--QuoteBegin--uranium - 235+Dec 14 2003, 05:31 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (uranium - 235 @ Dec 14 2003, 05:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Mullet+Dec 14 2003, 03:58 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mullet @ Dec 14 2003, 03:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Hopefully this event might turn some heads for George Dubya, and all the people who didn't trust him and didn't believe him will now.
If Bush gets a second term I'll gladly insert a bullet into his brain. He's screwed the world, he's screwed our country, and he's screwed every single taxpayer like they're just filthy prostitutes for his amusement. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> At least he has balls....Unlike our last few presidents, when America is threatend, Bush dosn't whine and cry and try to make peace so that we can be buddy buddy. *cough*Clinton*cough*
It's nice to have a president that isn't scared of stepping up...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->At least he has balls....Unlike our last few presidents, when America is threatend, <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Until the US actually find WMDs and terrorist links in Iraq, there was no threat to America or anyone else from that source.
While it's pretty obvious that there are no WMD's, capturing Saddam is still a really good thing. The president is glad, I'm sure, there's an extremely high chance that he will be reinstated.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- Some people benefitted under Saddam. Particularly members of the Baath party. Do they not count?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nope, they don't count. Should I worry about the feelings of the former Nazi party after Hitler died and their regime ended?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- Leaders of Islamic nations would be sad to see Saddam go and having a democracy propped up in the region. Their governments are oppressive, and none more-so than Saudi Arabia, which is why I would wager most foreign fighters come from there on Saudi royalty payrolls. Having a democracy in the region might instill some discontent in liberal youth of these oppressed countries.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good! Where's the problem here? It should have been done a long time ago. The US and europe have been making bad decisions in the mideast for a century, it's time we undid some of the damage.
-<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Many arabs were happy to see someone openly defy the United States, in the midst of other puppet or weak governments in the middle east. Jordan and Kuwait being the strongest examples. Their pro-US sentiment disgusts me greatly. They follow the US blindly, even if it means betraying fellow Arabs. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Arab brotherhood is a tired and disproven myth. It's nonsense. And Kuwait does not follow the US blindly so much as it shows great respect and gratitude for their freedom from enslavement by Saddam. Should they hate a country that liberated them?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I lean a little to the third category. As much as Saddam has done to my family, I don't feel that foreign interests will form a better Iraq. I would rather have a Saddam that works for Iraq ruling Iraq, than a greedy corrupt degenerate and US puppet like Chalabi ruling Iraq. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why exactly did you not grow up in Iraq again? You stated earlier that you are Iraqi borne, but it's very obvious you did not grow up there. Perhaps your parents did not agree with you on this and wanted to you to have a chance to grow up without ending your days prematurely in a prison, torture chamber, or mass grave.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I know the US has agendas in Iraq beyond humanitarian goals. Only fools watching Faux news would buy into that tripe. After 10 years of sanctions and millions dead due to malnutrition and sickness, it's time to play the angelic saviours. BS.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, those sanctions came out of nowhere. Oh wait, they came from the UN and the world, not the US, after Saddam invaded his second neighbor in 10 years, Kuwait.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And to anyone who believes that Saddam is a coward for not resisting arrest. The man is 66 years old. He has been living in a hole for the past 6 months. He is probably malnutritioned and sick, his muscles have probably atrophied. What kind of resistance do you think he could have put forward?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All he needed was the strength to pull the trigger on his pistol. He is like all dictators, a pathetic coward that wants to save his own skin and sacrifice his followers' in his stead. You can see his brothers by watching all those that stood trial at Nuremburg.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->New Iraqi Leaders Confront Their Former Dictator By IAN FISHER
Published: December 14, 2003
AGHDAD, Iraq, Dec. 14 — The wild gray beard was gone, and he sat on a metal Army cot, just awake from a nap, in socks and black slippers. He was not handcuffed. He did not recognize all his visitors, but they recognized him. That was the purpose of the visit: to help confirm that this was, in fact, Saddam Hussein.
What came next was, according to people in the room, an extraordinary 30 minutes, in which four members of the Governing Council, among the new leaders of Iraq, grilled the nation's deposed and now captured leader about his crimes. Mr. Hussein, they said, was defiant and unrepentant — but very much defeated.
"The world is crazy," said Mowaffak al-Rubaie, one of the council members in the room today after Mr. Hussein was captured in his hometown of Tikrit. "I was in his torture chamber in 1979 and now he was sitting there, powerless in front of me without anybody stopping me from doing anything to him. Just imagine. We were arguing, and he was using very foul language."
Ahmad Chalabi, the head of the Iraqi National Congress, said: "He was quite lucid. He had command of his faculties. He would not apologize to the Iraqi people. He did not deny any of the crimes he was confronted with having done. He tried to justify them."
Following Mr. Hussein's capture — in an eight-foot hole that one council member said was filled with "rats and mice" — the four council members were taken by helicopter this afternoon to a military base, at a site they would not disclose. Two other council members, in addition to Mr. Rubaie and Dr. Chalabi, were aboard: Adnan Pachachi, the foreign minister before Mr. Hussein came to power; and Adel Abdel Mahdi, who represents the Shia religious body, the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq.
Two of Iraq's other new leaders were there, too: L. Paul Bremer III, the American civilian administrator of Iraq; and Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, commander of ground forces in Iraq. The room was small, Mr. Rubaie said, and General Sanchez asked the men if they would like to see him through a window or by camera.
"We said, `No, we want to talk to him,' " Mr. Rubaie said.
Aides to the men differed slightly about what happened next: One said that Mr. Hussein, who they said had just awakened, did not recognize any of his visitors. Another said he recognized Dr. Chalabi and asked him to introduce the others.
"Saddam turned to Pachachi and said: `You were the foreign minister of Iraq. What are you doing with these people?' " one aide said.
Mr. Rubaie said he had asked the first question — which, he said, was met with a brutal and dismissive joke. He said he had asked why Mr. Hussein had killed two leading Shia clerics: Muhammad Bakr al-Sadr, killed in 1980; and Muhammad Sadiq al-Sadr, killed in 1999.
The word "sadr" means "chest" in Arabic, and Mr. Hussein replied, "Al Sadr or Ar Rijil?" That translates as: "The chest or the foot?"
The men then asked Mr. Hussein about three of the crimes of which he has been accused in his nearly 35 years in power:
Asked about the use of chemical weapons against the Kurds in the northern Iraqi town of Halabja in 1988, in which an estimated 5,000 people were killed, Mr. Hussein said this was the work of Iran, at war with Iraq at the time.
Asked about the mass graves of tens of thousands of Iraqis uncovered since Mr. Hussein was toppled from power in the American-led offensive this spring, Mr. Rubaie said that Mr. Hussein answered: "Ask their relatives. They were thieves and they ran away from the battlefields with Iran and from the battlefields of Kuwait."
Asked why he invaded Kuwait in 1990, provoking the first American-led assault on Iraq the next year, he said that Kuwait was rightfully a part of Iraq.
"He was not remorseful at all," Dr. Chalabi said. "It was clear he was a complete narcissist who was incapable of showing remorse or sympathy to other human beings."
Dr. Chalabi said that Mr. Hussein also suggested that he had been behind the recent wave of attacks against American soldiers in Iraq since his defeat.
"He said, `I gave a speech and I said the Americans can come to Iraq but they can't occupy it and rule it,' " Dr. Chalabi said. "He said, `I said I would fight them with pistols and I have.'
"He didn't say it directly but he was trying to take credit for it."
At a news conference this evening, Mr. Pachachi said Mr. Hussein had tried to justify himself by saying that Iraqis needed a tough ruler.
"He tried to justify his crimes by saying that he was a just but firm ruler," he said. "Of course, our answer was he was an unjust ruler responsible for the deaths of thousands of people."
Throughout the meeting, Mr. Hussein was calm but often used foul language. Mr. Pachachi said he looked "tired and haggard." Mr. Bremer and General Sanchez, they said, did not speak, though Dr. Chalabi said that Mr. Hussein was "deferential and respectful to the Americans."
"You can conclude from that some aspect that he was reconciled to his situation," he said.
"The most important fact: Had the roles been reversed, he would have torn us apart and cut us into small pieces after torture," Dr. Chalabi said. "This contrast was paramount in my mind — how we treated him and how he would have treated us."
Mr. Rubaie said: "One thing which is very important is that this man had with him underground when they arrested him two AK-47's and did not shoot one bullet. I told him, `You keep on saying that you are a brave man and a proud Arab.' I said, `When they arrested you why didn't you shoot one bullet? You are a coward.'
"And he started to use very colorful language. Basically, he used all his French."
Mr. Rubaie added: "I was so angry because this guy has caused so much damage. He has ruined the whole country. He has ruined 25 million people.
"And I have to confess that the last word was for me: I was the last to leave the room and I said, `May God curse you. Tell me, when are you going to be accountable to God and the day of judgment? What are you going to tell Him about Halabja and the mass graves, the Iran-Iraq war, thousands and thousands executed? What are you going to tell God?' He was exercising his French language."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No need for a rebuttal. I was asking you to be objective as you asked from others. Your recent post shows me that it would be a fool's errand to try any further. Citing an article that's chalk full of Chalabi's word of mouth is hardly proof of anything. "I think he's a really really bad guy and should burn in hell!", this coming from the guy who has the most to gain from Saddam's death and a man whose loyalty is sold to the highest bidder.
Am I biased? Probably. I'm on the side that I feel helps Iraq best, and I don't feel the US is that side. I owe no loyalty to Saddam, but I am loyal to my muslim brothers. I must be a myth.
And as for leaving Iraq, I am not Iraqi. None of my blood is Iraqi. I am a Palestinian-Kurd that was born in Baghdad, delivered by my grandmother which lived there at the time. I spent the first 5 days of my life there, and then moved to Jordan where my parents lived. It is still the place I was born, and politics will not sever my loyalty to Iraq or Islam.
<!--QuoteBegin--Snidely+Dec 15 2003, 12:40 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely @ Dec 15 2003, 12:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So his defense is: 1) I didn't do it! 2) Well, they asked for it!
He's going to have to do better than that. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Give him the benefit of the doubt. Being biased is one thing, but shutting your eyes and ears is another. He has much to answer for, but why let him talk if we're going to cast judgement already? Saddam can speak for himself, so don't trust anything Chalabi says.
<!--QuoteBegin--Jamil+Dec 14 2003, 03:16 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jamil @ Dec 14 2003, 03:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The US has no jurisdiction over the trying of Saddam. I'm sure that is the sentiment of the Iraqi people, because it is the sentiment of an Iraqi-born such as myself. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Are you sure you didn't say you were Iraqi? Your story is beginning to unravel, maybe you should go back and re-read your previous posts. You thought calling yourself was an Iraqi was very useful when it served your previous posts, but now suddenly you are not in any way affiliated? Quite convenient double standard.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Saddam can speak for himself, so don't trust anything Chalabi says. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, after all, he's so trustworthy, that friendly Saddam! Just ask all his dead relatives he killed. You're asking us to give a crazed mass-murderer the benefit of the doubt.
<!--QuoteBegin--Jamil+Dec 15 2003, 02:43 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jamil @ Dec 15 2003, 02:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> No need for a rebuttal. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you want to discuss, let's hear it. If you just want to change the subject and ignore other people's questions, don't post in here.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The US and europe have been making bad decisions in the mideast for a century, it's time we undid some of the damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh, now, c'mon MonsE... It goes back much further than that! You forget the crusades!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I just can't believe you defend a man that mustard gassed and suppressed your own Kurdish people. Unbelievable.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The funny thing is... We supported him while he did that, as a counter to Iran. I'm thinking of moving to Bonaire... I'm pretty sure they haven't done anything stupid yet. May be one of the only countries left in the world still fairly innocent. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Jamil+Dec 15 2003, 01:57 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jamil @ Dec 15 2003, 01:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Iraqi born as in born in Iraq. Is there a mix-up? Are you making wild speculations again? See, it can get you in trouble. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Ehhh so he is wrong in interpreting that you are an Iraqi then? Or is it in one argument we should be assuming your an Iraqi and in another that you're not?
I find one thing really odd from everything that you've said, because I don't think you can justify an oppressive rule because others benefitted. It would be like saying that you approve of the guy who robbed your house, killed your parents/raped your sister or whatever because he benefitted from doing it. Utterly absurd.
Good point on Crusades. I was a tad worked up there and not thinking very straight. All that came to mind was Britain, Russia, France, and us in the past 100+ years.
I never supported anyone being gassed, but I understand your point about Reagan's sending them funding. We might also bring up the fact that German businessmen supplied the mustard gas know-how and equipment, to Nem's everlasting disgust. Hence why I'm so adament that the wrongs get undone, not further supported by leaving a maniac like Saddam around.
I'm personally going to move to the Christmas islands. They have no fanatic idiots there, just people running .CX domains... <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--MonsieurEvil+Dec 15 2003, 02:15 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Dec 15 2003, 02:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm personally going to move to the Christmas islands. They have no fanatic idiots there, just people running .CX domains... <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Uh, I don't know about that MonsE, there is one specific .CX domain that makes me terrified of the Christmas islands. www.GO****.CX <==== DO NOT GO THERE. ITS BAD. SO bad I can't even mention its complete URL.
As for Saddam. I am quite glad that he was caught alive. It will demoralize the terror cells operating in Iraq a bit. However, in the long run I am worried that he may serve as a type of martyr.
<!--QuoteBegin--wizard@psu+Dec 15 2003, 03:29 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (wizard@psu @ Dec 15 2003, 03:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Uh, I don't know about that MonsE, there is one specific .CX domain that makes me terrified of the Christmas islands. www.GO****.CX <==== DO NOT GO THERE. ITS BAD. SO bad I can't even mention its complete URL. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> ROFL. I needed that chortle. Nothing like some goat pr0n to brighten up your day <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> .
Comments
It's not a double - he was held for about 24 hours before they released the news so that they could get a positive DNA match.
As for people being easily swayed, that is a human characteristic, not an American one. I can point out people from all over the earth (and in this thread?) and how easily they are swayed. I can't see that anyone here should be upset that he was captured. Regardless of whether or not the invasion should have occurred, there is no way on earth this guy deserves to live or run a country.
If Bush gets a second term I'll gladly insert a bullet into his brain. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can get you arrested for saying that <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
a more than vaguely serious death threat against ANYONE is a federal crime, sir.
w00t.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Topic approaching lockitude. Get yourselves under control, and lose some of the idiot rhetoric. At least pretend to be somewhat objective.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Better said twice and remembered then once and forgotten. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
problem solved!
- Some people benefitted under Saddam. Particularly members of the Baath party. Do they not count?
- Leaders of Islamic nations would be sad to see Saddam go and having a democracy propped up in the region. Their governments are oppressive, and none more-so than Saudi Arabia, which is why I would wager most foreign fighters come from there on Saudi royalty payrolls. Having a democracy in the region might instill some discontent in liberal youth of these oppressed countries.
- Many arabs were happy to see someone openly defy the United States, in the midst of other puppet or weak governments in the middle east. Jordan and Kuwait being the strongest examples. Their pro-US sentiment disgusts me greatly. They follow the US blindly, even if it means betraying fellow Arabs.
I lean a little to the third category. As much as Saddam has done to my family, I don't feel that foreign interests will form a better Iraq. I would rather have a Saddam that works for Iraq ruling Iraq, than a greedy corrupt degenerate and US puppet like Chalabi ruling Iraq.
I know the US has agendas in Iraq beyond humanitarian goals. Only fools watching Faux news would buy into that tripe. After 10 years of sanctions and millions dead due to malnutrition and sickness, it's time to play the angelic saviours. BS.
And to anyone who believes that Saddam is a coward for not resisting arrest. The man is 66 years old. He has been living in a hole for the past 6 months. He is probably malnutritioned and sick, his muscles have probably atrophied. What kind of resistance do you think he could have put forward?
It's forming a better Iraqi football (soccer) team, and we all know that's what counts. They aim to be ready to try and qualify for the 2010 World Cup. Yeh for the beautiful game!
And, anyways, everyone knows what this thread was <i>actually</i> created for... So let us now discuss how long it would have taken the TSA to capture Saddam Hussein if he was a camping gorge with dcs (and a beard)!
- Some people benefitted under Saddam. Particularly members of the Baath party. Do they not count?
- Leaders of Islamic nations would be sad to see Saddam go and having a democracy propped up in the region. Their governments are oppressive, and none more-so than Saudi Arabia, which is why I would wager most foreign fighters come from there on Saudi royalty payrolls. Having a democracy in the region might instill some discontent in liberal youth of these oppressed countries.
- Many arabs were happy to see someone openly defy the United States, in the midst of other puppet or weak governments in the middle east. Jordan and Kuwait being the strongest examples. Their pro-US sentiment disgusts me greatly. They follow the US blindly, even if it means betraying fellow Arabs.
I lean a little to the third category. As much as Saddam has done to my family, I don't feel that foreign interests will form a better Iraq. I would rather have a Saddam that works for Iraq ruling Iraq, than a greedy corrupt degenerate and US puppet like Chalabi ruling Iraq.
I know the US has agendas in Iraq beyond humanitarian goals. Only fools watching Faux news would buy into that tripe. After 10 years of sanctions and millions dead due to malnutrition and sickness, it's time to play the angelic saviours. BS.
And to anyone who believes that Saddam is a coward for not resisting arrest. The man is 66 years old. He has been living in a hole for the past 6 months. He is probably malnutritioned and sick, his muscles have probably atrophied. What kind of resistance do you think he could have put forward? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dont think MonsE is picking sides here - he is refering to various rants by certian people bashing Bush etc......
woot! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If Bush gets a second term I'll gladly insert a bullet into his brain. He's screwed the world, he's screwed our country, and he's screwed every single taxpayer like they're just filthy prostitutes for his amusement. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
At least he has balls....Unlike our last few presidents, when America is threatend, Bush dosn't whine and cry and try to make peace so that we can be buddy buddy. *cough*Clinton*cough*
It's nice to have a president that isn't scared of stepping up...
Until the US actually find WMDs and terrorist links in Iraq, there was no threat to America or anyone else from that source.
Nope, they don't count. Should I worry about the feelings of the former Nazi party after Hitler died and their regime ended?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- Leaders of Islamic nations would be sad to see Saddam go and having a democracy propped up in the region. Their governments are oppressive, and none more-so than Saudi Arabia, which is why I would wager most foreign fighters come from there on Saudi royalty payrolls. Having a democracy in the region might instill some discontent in liberal youth of these oppressed countries.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good! Where's the problem here? It should have been done a long time ago. The US and europe have been making bad decisions in the mideast for a century, it's time we undid some of the damage.
-<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Many arabs were happy to see someone openly defy the United States, in the midst of other puppet or weak governments in the middle east. Jordan and Kuwait being the strongest examples. Their pro-US sentiment disgusts me greatly. They follow the US blindly, even if it means betraying fellow Arabs. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Arab brotherhood is a tired and disproven myth. It's nonsense. And Kuwait does not follow the US blindly so much as it shows great respect and gratitude for their freedom from enslavement by Saddam. Should they hate a country that liberated them?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I lean a little to the third category. As much as Saddam has done to my family, I don't feel that foreign interests will form a better Iraq. I would rather have a Saddam that works for Iraq ruling Iraq, than a greedy corrupt degenerate and US puppet like Chalabi ruling Iraq. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why exactly did you not grow up in Iraq again? You stated earlier that you are Iraqi borne, but it's very obvious you did not grow up there. Perhaps your parents did not agree with you on this and wanted to you to have a chance to grow up without ending your days prematurely in a prison, torture chamber, or mass grave.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I know the US has agendas in Iraq beyond humanitarian goals. Only fools watching Faux news would buy into that tripe. After 10 years of sanctions and millions dead due to malnutrition and sickness, it's time to play the angelic saviours. BS.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, those sanctions came out of nowhere. Oh wait, they came from the UN and the world, not the US, after Saddam invaded his second neighbor in 10 years, Kuwait.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And to anyone who believes that Saddam is a coward for not resisting arrest. The man is 66 years old. He has been living in a hole for the past 6 months. He is probably malnutritioned and sick, his muscles have probably atrophied. What kind of resistance do you think he could have put forward?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All he needed was the strength to pull the trigger on his pistol. He is like all dictators, a pathetic coward that wants to save his own skin and sacrifice his followers' in his stead. You can see his brothers by watching all those that stood trial at Nuremburg.
Feel free to rebutt.
<a href='http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/14/international/middleeast/14CND-COUNC.html' target='_blank'>http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/14/internat...4CND-COUNC.html</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->New Iraqi Leaders Confront Their Former Dictator
By IAN FISHER
Published: December 14, 2003
AGHDAD, Iraq, Dec. 14 — The wild gray beard was gone, and he sat on a metal Army cot, just awake from a nap, in socks and black slippers. He was not handcuffed. He did not recognize all his visitors, but they recognized him. That was the purpose of the visit: to help confirm that this was, in fact, Saddam Hussein.
What came next was, according to people in the room, an extraordinary 30 minutes, in which four members of the Governing Council, among the new leaders of Iraq, grilled the nation's deposed and now captured leader about his crimes. Mr. Hussein, they said, was defiant and unrepentant — but very much defeated.
"The world is crazy," said Mowaffak al-Rubaie, one of the council members in the room today after Mr. Hussein was captured in his hometown of Tikrit. "I was in his torture chamber in 1979 and now he was sitting there, powerless in front of me without anybody stopping me from doing anything to him. Just imagine. We were arguing, and he was using very foul language."
Ahmad Chalabi, the head of the Iraqi National Congress, said: "He was quite lucid. He had command of his faculties. He would not apologize to the Iraqi people. He did not deny any of the crimes he was confronted with having done. He tried to justify them."
Following Mr. Hussein's capture — in an eight-foot hole that one council member said was filled with "rats and mice" — the four council members were taken by helicopter this afternoon to a military base, at a site they would not disclose. Two other council members, in addition to Mr. Rubaie and Dr. Chalabi, were aboard: Adnan Pachachi, the foreign minister before Mr. Hussein came to power; and Adel Abdel Mahdi, who represents the Shia religious body, the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq.
Two of Iraq's other new leaders were there, too: L. Paul Bremer III, the American civilian administrator of Iraq; and Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, commander of ground forces in Iraq. The room was small, Mr. Rubaie said, and General Sanchez asked the men if they would like to see him through a window or by camera.
"We said, `No, we want to talk to him,' " Mr. Rubaie said.
Aides to the men differed slightly about what happened next: One said that Mr. Hussein, who they said had just awakened, did not recognize any of his visitors. Another said he recognized Dr. Chalabi and asked him to introduce the others.
"Saddam turned to Pachachi and said: `You were the foreign minister of Iraq. What are you doing with these people?' " one aide said.
Mr. Rubaie said he had asked the first question — which, he said, was met with a brutal and dismissive joke. He said he had asked why Mr. Hussein had killed two leading Shia clerics: Muhammad Bakr al-Sadr, killed in 1980; and Muhammad Sadiq al-Sadr, killed in 1999.
The word "sadr" means "chest" in Arabic, and Mr. Hussein replied, "Al Sadr or Ar Rijil?" That translates as: "The chest or the foot?"
The men then asked Mr. Hussein about three of the crimes of which he has been accused in his nearly 35 years in power:
Asked about the use of chemical weapons against the Kurds in the northern Iraqi town of Halabja in 1988, in which an estimated 5,000 people were killed, Mr. Hussein said this was the work of Iran, at war with Iraq at the time.
Asked about the mass graves of tens of thousands of Iraqis uncovered since Mr. Hussein was toppled from power in the American-led offensive this spring, Mr. Rubaie said that Mr. Hussein answered: "Ask their relatives. They were thieves and they ran away from the battlefields with Iran and from the battlefields of Kuwait."
Asked why he invaded Kuwait in 1990, provoking the first American-led assault on Iraq the next year, he said that Kuwait was rightfully a part of Iraq.
"He was not remorseful at all," Dr. Chalabi said. "It was clear he was a complete narcissist who was incapable of showing remorse or sympathy to other human beings."
Dr. Chalabi said that Mr. Hussein also suggested that he had been behind the recent wave of attacks against American soldiers in Iraq since his defeat.
"He said, `I gave a speech and I said the Americans can come to Iraq but they can't occupy it and rule it,' " Dr. Chalabi said. "He said, `I said I would fight them with pistols and I have.'
"He didn't say it directly but he was trying to take credit for it."
At a news conference this evening, Mr. Pachachi said Mr. Hussein had tried to justify himself by saying that Iraqis needed a tough ruler.
"He tried to justify his crimes by saying that he was a just but firm ruler," he said. "Of course, our answer was he was an unjust ruler responsible for the deaths of thousands of people."
Throughout the meeting, Mr. Hussein was calm but often used foul language. Mr. Pachachi said he looked "tired and haggard." Mr. Bremer and General Sanchez, they said, did not speak, though Dr. Chalabi said that Mr. Hussein was "deferential and respectful to the Americans."
"You can conclude from that some aspect that he was reconciled to his situation," he said.
"The most important fact: Had the roles been reversed, he would have torn us apart and cut us into small pieces after torture," Dr. Chalabi said. "This contrast was paramount in my mind — how we treated him and how he would have treated us."
Mr. Rubaie said: "One thing which is very important is that this man had with him underground when they arrested him two AK-47's and did not shoot one bullet. I told him, `You keep on saying that you are a brave man and a proud Arab.' I said, `When they arrested you why didn't you shoot one bullet? You are a coward.'
"And he started to use very colorful language. Basically, he used all his French."
Mr. Rubaie added: "I was so angry because this guy has caused so much damage. He has ruined the whole country. He has ruined 25 million people.
"And I have to confess that the last word was for me: I was the last to leave the room and I said, `May God curse you. Tell me, when are you going to be accountable to God and the day of judgment? What are you going to tell Him about Halabja and the mass graves, the Iran-Iraq war, thousands and thousands executed? What are you going to tell God?' He was exercising his French language."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) I didn't do it!
2) Well, they asked for it!
He's going to have to do better than that.
Am I biased? Probably. I'm on the side that I feel helps Iraq best, and I don't feel the US is that side. I owe no loyalty to Saddam, but I am loyal to my muslim brothers. I must be a myth.
And as for leaving Iraq, I am not Iraqi. None of my blood is Iraqi. I am a Palestinian-Kurd that was born in Baghdad, delivered by my grandmother which lived there at the time. I spent the first 5 days of my life there, and then moved to Jordan where my parents lived. It is still the place I was born, and politics will not sever my loyalty to Iraq or Islam.
1) I didn't do it!
2) Well, they asked for it!
He's going to have to do better than that. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Give him the benefit of the doubt. Being biased is one thing, but shutting your eyes and ears is another. He has much to answer for, but why let him talk if we're going to cast judgement already? Saddam can speak for himself, so don't trust anything Chalabi says.
Are you sure you didn't say you were Iraqi? Your story is beginning to unravel, maybe you should go back and re-read your previous posts. You thought calling yourself was an Iraqi was very useful when it served your previous posts, but now suddenly you are not in any way affiliated? Quite convenient double standard.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Saddam can speak for himself, so don't trust anything Chalabi says. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, after all, he's so trustworthy, that friendly Saddam! Just ask all his dead relatives he killed. You're asking us to give a crazed mass-murderer the benefit of the doubt.
And stop with the 'wild speculation' comments. That's not discussion, just acrimony that will lead to problems.
If you want to discuss, let's hear it. If you just want to change the subject and ignore other people's questions, don't post in here.
Oh, now, c'mon MonsE... It goes back much further than that! You forget the crusades!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I just can't believe you defend a man that mustard gassed and suppressed your own Kurdish people. Unbelievable.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The funny thing is... We supported him while he did that, as a counter to Iran. I'm thinking of moving to Bonaire... I'm pretty sure they haven't done anything stupid yet. May be one of the only countries left in the world still fairly innocent. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Ehhh so he is wrong in interpreting that you are an Iraqi then? Or is it in one argument we should be assuming your an Iraqi and in another that you're not?
I find one thing really odd from everything that you've said, because I don't think you can justify an oppressive rule because others benefitted. It would be like saying that you approve of the guy who robbed your house, killed your parents/raped your sister or whatever because he benefitted from doing it. Utterly absurd.
I never supported anyone being gassed, but I understand your point about Reagan's sending them funding. We might also bring up the fact that German businessmen supplied the mustard gas know-how and equipment, to Nem's everlasting disgust. Hence why I'm so adament that the wrongs get undone, not further supported by leaving a maniac like Saddam around.
I'm personally going to move to the Christmas islands. They have no fanatic idiots there, just people running .CX domains... <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
I'm personally going to move to the Christmas islands. They have no fanatic idiots there, just people running .CX domains... <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uh, I don't know about that MonsE, there is one specific .CX domain that makes me terrified of the Christmas islands. www.GO****.CX <==== DO NOT GO THERE. ITS BAD. SO bad I can't even mention its complete URL.
As for Saddam. I am quite glad that he was caught alive. It will demoralize the terror cells operating in Iraq a bit. However, in the long run I am worried that he may serve as a type of martyr.
ROFL. I needed that chortle. Nothing like some goat pr0n to brighten up your day <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> .