EpidemicDark Force GorgeJoin Date: 2003-06-29Member: 17781Members
Maddox is soo fed up with his own angriness and high on his self righteousness, his words may seems like they got something, but they really dont. His argument that a trapped person inside well shouldnt be saved because an illegal alien should get lower wages is rubbish example to compare with.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->News flash: immigrants aren't taking anything from Americans. Companies like WalMart are giving jobs to them illegally. If WalMart paid a company to hire immigrants to do the job over Americans then there's probably a good reason for it. I'm sick and tired of lazy gluttonous Americans bitching about immigrants "taking" our jobs. It's not like they can literally come to America, ambush us in the parking lot and take our jobs.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Illegal immigrants often works way below the minimum wages and takes job opportunities away from american citizen, lessening their spending power and doesnt pay any taxes (but it's not like they use any social services and or anything though). You might say they are humans as well and deserve the same right as everyone else but frankly, it doesnt say anything in the quote <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> To counter your statement, walmart is giving them job because they work below the minimum wage. Not because law-abiding american citizen are lazy.
Actually his whole article cant be applied to this thread as he is talking about legal immigrants, and if he was talking about illegal immigrant, it's againt the law for economical reasons, not racisme.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->FFS who's biased now? Bush took the largest surplus in US history (Given to him by... CLINTON) and turned it into the largest deficit. Clinton may have made a fool of his presidency but at least he didn't make a fool of every tax-paying citizen, everyone with a job, everyone in this country, the constitution, himself, and his cabinet in front of the United Nations by making up lies just to finish what his daddy started.
<b>Addendum:</b> And then BLAME all the faults on everything BESIDES the fact he's a freaking moron.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dude, that's complete bull crap. Clinton got a lot of cash because it was a good year, and he taxed a crap load. That was all luck and timing. Furthermore, because liberals control the media, it helped Clinton even more while he was with that woman in the Oval Office...
You can't say that bush turned it into a deficit by himself. Does 9/11 ring a bell? That cost a load of money, and was a terrible day for business, as well as completely screwed our economy. You can't say that 9/11 was Bush's fault. It may have been preventable, but since people expect to get paid so much, prevention would have cost more than 9/11 did, basically... Also, we went to war with Iraq. While that may not seem smart to you, it was. First, Hussein tried to kill Bush's father. If you wouldn't want to get some kind of revenge for something like that, then you were dropped on your head as a baby or something. Also, Iraq is oil rich. If we took it over (which we have now), we would help the economy by a lot. Guess what? Bush has the highest approval rating EVER because of that, and you people with liberal attitudes toward the war continue to argue for no reason. GET OVER IT. SUPPORT THE COUNTRY. Protesting and calling the president an idiot only makes the war more bloody and violent. In fact, a study was done on that, and yes, it is true.
I absolutely despise people who say that bush made the biggest deficit, too, as you have no grounds to say that <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Also, how has Bush made an embarrasment out of every tax-paying citizen. Clinton was the complete moron. We were the laughingstock of the WORLD. He made an **** out of everyone in the country. People associate us with Clinton and how we are so sex-driven in this country now, thanks to Clinton.
Furthermore, Bush isn't violating the constitution. The Supreme Court would have stopped him. You see, Conservatives aren't the evil **** you may think us to be. What lies are you tallking about? UN? big deal.... What's the problem? We haven't been bombed since 9/11...
Also, the defecit was amplified because he created that Homeland Security thing. That opened the door for more people to get jobs, but it also cost money, because people don't work for free, and no one else can supply it.
Jesus, you guys are never happy. And when you have the biggest idiot in the world up for insulting, you just support him... <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Furthermore, because liberals control the media, it helped Clinton even more while he was with that woman in the Oval Office... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know! I never even heard about that whole Monica Lew . . uh . . Lewinso? Luminski? Something like that? I can't be sure, because the liberal press completely ignored her and covered her story up--along with all other alleged impropriety between Bill Clinton and women. Honestly, if we had an honest, conservative media, she would be a household name, and could probably even cash in on her constant media exposure well after Clinton left office. For <i>shame</i>, liberal media!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You can't say that bush turned it into a deficit by himself. Does 9/11 ring a bell?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Check your facts, the economy was on a slippery slope well before 9/11 . . . not necessarily all Bush's fault, but there seems to be a revisionist vibe that everything was hunky-dory before that day, and it's turned 9/11 into a general pupose excuse.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->First, Hussein tried to kill Bush's father. If you wouldn't want to get some kind of revenge for something like that, then you were dropped on your head as a baby or something.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So what sort of abuse would you have to suffer in order to sacrifice close to 500 of your contrymen for some petty revenge?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Protesting and calling the president an idiot only makes the war more bloody and violent. In fact, a study was done on that, and yes, it is true. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Bush has the highest approval rating EVER because of that<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Link, please.
Also: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also, how has Bush made an embarrasment out of every tax-paying citizen. Clinton was the complete moron. We were the laughingstock of the WORLD. He made an **** out of everyone in the country. People associate us with Clinton and how we are so sex-driven in this country now, thanks to Clinton. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't recall this-- I <i>do</i> recall that we were a laughingstock in other nations, especially European nations, because we were making such a big deal and spending millions of dollars over something that was winked at in their governments.
However, I'll take you up on this-- I'm looking for approval polling numbers abroad for Clinton and Bush. If anyone can find a reliable source, please post-- personally, I think you're projecting your feelings onto the rest of the world here.
I would like people to stop blaming the economy on presidents. Please, please, Business cycles, Business cycles, Business cycles, Business cycles, Business cycles, Business cycles. You can't stop a recession from happening, it's impossible. There's also a lag time of one year in statistics, so Bush took office right during a recession, no big deal though, it's not Clinton's fault, he can't control the economy, sure a president can slow it down or speed something up, but they can't stop it. Clinton was fortunate to have a good economy when he was in office.
UZiEight inches of C4 between the legs.Join Date: 2003-02-20Member: 13767Members
edited January 2004
Honestly, We stopped being an open immigrant country way back with Ellis Island, We don't know what they are doing coming across the border for. To work, to live off welfare (30% of immigrants do!) or to sell drugs. The border poses its own threat as does Canada! (freely crossing interpaths into/from Canada exist!
If they are paying their taxes im all for it! But theres always going to be aliens that are undocumented. As for the drug dealers this is exactly why the national guard needs to be deployed!
We must start booting out all immigrants not just hispanics.
Now looking at this proposal, I'm really not sure where you're coming from Forlorn.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->• Workers in the United States illegally can join a temporary labor program.
• Those workers then can apply for permanent U.S. residency, but they will receive no preferential consideration.
• Employers hiring these workers must show they cannot find U.S. laborers to fill the jobs.
• These undocumented workers get guaranteed wage and employment rights.
• These workers receive a temporary three-year visa, renewable once. They are expected to return to their countries once their visas expire.
• Congress will be urged to increase the current annual limit of 140,000 green cards.
• The U.S. Department of Homeland Security will administer the program.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For starters, it gives illegal immigrants a tempting chance to gain US citizenship. Many, if not all, illegal aliens will quite likely take up this offer if it goes through. This enters them into the US system, which means that they're now paying taxes and can be easily located and kept tabs on.
It hardly hurts US citizen employment because anyone hiring these workers must show that they can't find any US citizens willing to take the job. Let's face it, even here in Australia immigrants do a lot of work that other people don't want to do.
Now that the government knows who these people are, after the 3 - 6 year period where they are allowed to work, the government can find them and make them go back home. Or these people can apply for citizenship. It's a lot easier to track people down when they're legally part of the US system.
Your comment of "Kick them out" unfortunatly ignores the simple facts that such an opperation would be cripplingly expensive. Finding all the people who have entered into the US illegally and then forcably shipping them back home would be a tremendous drain on the economy which is already looking pretty bad. This way, the US can regulate the labor they recieve from these immigrants and select the best ones for citizenship. Even better, by ensuring these immigrants have wage rights, corperations and companies won't be as tempted to hire them over US citizens because they can pay immigrants less.
What this program does not do and never claimed to do was give all illegal aliens US citizenship. It gives them a chance if they're good workers and responsable people.
Finally, please enlighten me on something. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Critical, as a taxpayer, you should realize that a large portion of your taxes go to free-loafers who simply jump the boarder... yes, as absurd as it sounds, we are giving welfare benifits to illeagal aliens! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How? Illegal immigrants are not part of the US system, therefore I can't see how they get welfare benefits. Surely, like here in Australia, if you want welfare benefits you must provide a social security number, which last time I checked they were only given out to citizens. Under Bush's proposal, if these immigrants can't find work then it's back home:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Illegal immigrants already in the United States can only apply for the temporary worker program if they already have a job. The special status would last for three years and could be renewed once, for a total stay of six years. If temporary workers failed to stay employed or broke the law, they would be sent home, Bush said.
They have to find work, and stay in it, to utilise this program. Now isn't that helping the US economy? They're not just sitting around as you seem to think they all do.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- They are used for cheap sources of labor, and nearly nothing can be done to stop it... we we end up having more people who lose their jobs, go on welfare... which in turn directly hurts every other hard-working American citzen. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes they are used for cheap labor. This bill proposes a solution to that. Not only does it regulate wages for immigrants, it forces employers to take US citizens over immigrants! What more can you want?
By the way, your two statements contradict one another: on the one hand, you claim immigrants jump the border and become "free-loafers", but on the other hand, you say they take away jobs! So they sit around leeching off the US whilst putting in a hard days' work as well? Those cunning Mexicans!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> They are a direct insult to every single legal immigrant in America, those who waited to get in, and spent generally a decade or more getting their citizenship, and they are proud of it, something I know most Americans take for granted... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
These illegal immigrants will still have to spend 3 - 6 years trying to get citizenship, and at the end of it all, they have no more chance than anyone else trying to immigrate to the US. If they can prove that they are industrious, hard-working people then why the hell shouldn't the US want them in their country?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now, we see that the Americans simply cave in to a force they cannot stop - now is the perfect time to enter. I'm sure the message is sounding out loud and clear to all peoples who wanted in America before, but were hesitent . Now it's time for a free for all, party on the USA's tab! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're making no sense. Say some Mexican people wish to enter the US to find employment. Well under this new law, they can only do that if they have a job offer from a US employer:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->People outside the country will also be able to obtain temporary worker status if they have a job offer from an American employer. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, so say they enter illegally. They still have to find a job. If they don't, well I'm really not sure how they're going to survive.
This has to be one of the most bizzare debates on this forum. Here I am defending BUSH against FORLORN! The world hath gone mad! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Am I the only one who thinks that the money spent by customs and the prison system locking illegal aliens would be better spent actually fixing the problem? I also feel the same way about the whole middle east thing, and the drug war, and even the prison system in general.
I say we build a wall along the mexican boarder and have machine gun nests every 30 yards, we can keep the current aliens, just keep them out from now on =\
Oh okay, Ryo, I'm sorry I made you defend Bush, you wouldn't understand the corruption of the welfare and immigration system in America unless you were watching it constantly.
Let me try to bring you up to speed:
Fact: Illeagal aliens enter by about 10,000 everyday, mostly through Mexico. They are smuggled, run over, whatever. These people will work for beans, as it's still more than they got in their craphole aka <insert 3rd world country of origin>. Next, these aliens come over to America, and since they are working for beans they will naturally kick out whoever was in their spot working at minimum wage. They work at really backbreaking jobs, such as farms and at your local wal-mart.
Anyhow, the problem with this is that while yes, they are a source of cheap labor,
- None of them pay taxes - The Americans who lost their job go on welfare, welfare is federally and state supported, so yes taxpayers in Alaska must give a portion of their check to some man in Texas who lost his job at a farm to an alien at a lettce farm. - Some states, in way to take care of their growing illegal alien population, have made it so there are illegal alien 'benifits'... I know it sounds absurd but this is how it is, we use our tax money so these people can get a higher quality of life... while yes it's being a good humanatarian, it also costs a crap load of cash that puts a strain on our economy, due to the sheer number of illegal immigrants (20 million? More?), and further more, it goes back to the question of WHY ARE THE HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE... we are talking about 'i-l-l-e-g-a-l' immigrants... not legal ones. - It's not very fair that we treat these illegal immigrants almost the same way as normal immigrants... hell, full united states citizens. Normally there is a huge waiting list for immigrants ALL over the world to come and enter America... yet, here we are, giving ourselves double standards by letting in millions of free-loaders and simulaneously slapping the faces of all legal immigrants with a hard, cold dose of logic: "Your struggle to get where you were right now in America has been a complete and total waste, had you have done things illegally they would have been faster and easier." - Illegal immigrants come over to America and have <b>NO</b> idea of how to speak English... as a result, for a good 5-10 (not sure on how many) years, some states have had education reformed so that spanish students have their own special spanish classes... rather than learn English. The idea was to teach them stuff in Spanish while teaching them English. So far these types of programs have been a complete flop. Oh yeah, these Spanish programs also cost a whole lot of money.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How? Illegal immigrants are not part of the US system, therefore I can't see how they get welfare benefits. Surely, like here in Australia, if you want welfare benefits you must provide a social security number, which last time I checked they were only given out to citizens.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See, this is good Ryo, you carry logic, now you know why I hate some of the more liberal minded politicians in America, who do not carry such logic, because some people think that benifits should be given to these people... (Gah, almost threw up - Ted Kennedy came to mind)
And okay, while you think this law is not flawed, allow me to explain how it's terribly flawed and complete crap:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->• Workers in the United States illegally can join a temporary labor program.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yay! What a great insult to all that has been American immigrants. Also - it's not like that we don't have a lot of unemployed people or anything to fill in for these immigrants (note: this isn't true)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->• Those workers then can apply for permanent U.S. residency, but they will receive no preferential consideration.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wait a minute... this makes no sense. The reason we have so many illegal immigrants is because our quota is so low people who want in the US want in NOW. So now people can come, use up our country like a dirty wh*re, and they are just going to leave easily, like we have done so easily to kick them out now?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->• These undocumented workers get guaranteed wage and employment rights.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, this isn't a bad thing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->• These workers receive a temporary three-year visa, renewable once. They are expected to return to their countries once their visas expire.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They are expected - ROFL! Don't make me laugh. How is our magical government going to enforce this, when they did jack diddly crap to stop immigrants from entering illegallyin the first place?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->• Congress will be urged to increase the current annual limit of 140,000 green cards.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good. Increasing the quota limit is a smart move.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->• The U.S. Department of Homeland Security will administer the program.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Big whoppie do da.
Anyhow, the run down on this terrible piece of legislation:
- We are going to let 20 million + illegal immigrants off the hook, and let them continue to sap our system dry.
- We aren't going to take any steps to prevent future illegal immigrants (LOCK DOWN THE BOARDERS! JEEZ)
- This law is basically a giant inviational card for illegal immigrants to come on over and party. It is also something which completely trashes our current system for LEGAL immigrants.
So, in essesence, this law accomplishes nothing, and yet makes our country much more vulerable. If anything was a perfect testamount to Bush's stupidity, then this law is it.
Satisfied? My first post of this thread should probably make a little more sense to you now.
<!--QuoteBegin--DiabolusCaligo+Jan 8 2004, 04:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DiabolusCaligo @ Jan 8 2004, 04:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The guy has his Masters from an Ivy League School. I think it's safe to say that he's book smart. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> He has a Master in <b>Business Administration</b>. You can't possibly be suggesting that business is a hard degree. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Anyhow, this isn't a debate about Bush or about party lines.
This is about people. The key issue as I see it:
Americans feel proud to be "Americans." They don't want just anybody getting in. These (mainly) Mexican aliens are coming to America for good reasons, they want their son to grow up in a good country, or they want to make some money doing some hard work.
My personal principle is that hard work trumps "elite" status (such as citizenship). Having citizenship is like being of royal blood. You didn't do anything to earn it, you were born into it. You aren't anymore entitled to it than anybody else.
The only way to prove your entitlement is hard work. If you do good work, thats all you need to worry about. If somebody from another country wants to do hard work and try to move up in "class," more power to them.
Basically I see this as an attitude of elitism (Americans feel themselves more superior than others).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- None of them pay taxes - The Americans who lost their job go on welfare, welfare is federally and state supported, so yes taxpayers in Alaska must give a portion of their check to some man in Texas who lost his job at a farm to an alien at a lettce farm. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
None of them pay taxes currently, and yes, they do take jobs away from US citizens currently as well.
That's what this law seeks to rectify: once they're on a worker's permit, they'll be paying taxes. The law also specifically states that these immigrant workers can only be given a job if no US citizen can be found to fill the job.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yay! What a great insult to all that has been American immigrants. Also - it's not like that we don't have a lot of unemployed people or anything to fill in for these immigrants<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
These immigrants will only be given permits if they're working, and as such they're contributing to the US economy. America was founded on hard working immigrants (and slaves, but let's not go there). Now I'm sure there are plenty of unemployed US citizens, but as I've said, this bill forces employers to ensure that no US citizens can be found for a position before they hire an immigrant.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->They are expected - ROFL! Don't make me laugh. How is our magical government going to enforce this, when they did jack diddly crap to stop immigrants from entering illegallyin the first place? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It will be a lot easier to enforce this than trying to patrol 3,000 odd miles of borders. An immigrant worker would have to give an address, contact details, name ect, and the government would then have a very easy time in locating said immigrant and telling them to leave when their permits expired. Putting these people into the US system is actually a great way to keep track of them.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- This law is basically a giant inviational card for illegal immigrants to come on over and party. It is also something which completely trashes our current system for LEGAL immigrants. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No it is not. As the bill states, an immigrant can only be accepted under this program if they have an offer of employment from an employer in the US, and if that employment ceases, they have to find more work or leave.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- We are going to let 20 million + illegal immigrants off the hook, and let them continue to sap our system dry. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can't see how forcing them to pay taxes, forcing them to be employed, and giving US citizen preferential treatment for employment is "sapping our system dry". The government gains valuable information about who and where these immigrants are and can as such use this information to deport these people much more easily when their time is up. For the 3 - 6 year period these workers are here, the US gains a heap of people willing to work just about anywhere, taxes, and the right and ease to select which of these people after their time is up have "what it takes" to be US citizens.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> - We aren't going to take any steps to prevent future illegal immigrants (LOCK DOWN THE BOARDERS! JEEZ) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In Australia we know all about how hard it is to patrol and "lock down" huge expanses of border areas. Short of building a gigantic fence across the US-Mexican border, people are going to want to come to the US. If they are going to do that, why not regulate it and exploit their labor for all it's worth? The bill does not say that border region security will be relaxed, and it does not say that everyone in Mexico can just head north and they'll be greated with smiles and hugs from border police. They have to have an offer of employment and they have to stay employed.
<!--QuoteBegin--cri.tical+Jan 9 2004, 01:05 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (cri.tical @ Jan 9 2004, 01:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--DiabolusCaligo+Jan 8 2004, 04:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DiabolusCaligo @ Jan 8 2004, 04:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The guy has his Masters from an Ivy League School. I think it's safe to say that he's book smart. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> He has a Master in <b>Business Administration</b>. You can't possibly be suggesting that business is a hard degree. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Anyhow, this isn't a debate about Bush or about party lines.
This is about people. The key issue as I see it:
Americans feel proud to be "Americans." They don't want just anybody getting in. These (mainly) Mexican aliens are coming to America for good reasons, they want their son to grow up in a good country, or they want to make some money doing some hard work.
My personal principle is that hard work trumps "elite" status (such as citizenship). Having citizenship is like being of royal blood. You didn't do anything to earn it, you were born into it. You aren't anymore entitled to it than anybody else.
The only way to prove your entitlement is hard work. If you do good work, thats all you need to worry about. If somebody from another country wants to do hard work and try to move up in "class," more power to them.
Basically I see this as an attitude of elitism (Americans feel themselves more superior than others). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> But here's the thing Critical:
Why should we respect people who break our laws and expect equal treatment?
Of course I'm going to be an elitist **** when it comes to <b>criminals.</b>
Most of America's ancestors came over to America, <b>legally</b>, and worked their way right into citizenship, started a family, and were hard workers. This is something we can all be proud of.
But illegal immigrants are completely different. They come in unwanted, bypass our current system, and take the easy way out on almost everything. I'm sorry but there's no way I'm going to respect such a class of lowlifes. Either they play by the rules or I will spend the rest of my life never to accept such trash.
Ryo, you don't get it:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->None of them pay taxes currently, and yes, they do take jobs away from US citizens currently as well.
That's what this law seeks to rectify: once they're on a worker's permit, they'll be paying taxes. The law also specifically states that these immigrant workers can only be given a job if no US citizen can be found to fill the job. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What makes sure they are going to pay taxes? What makes sure employers are going to seach for a US citizen to fill in?
I mean, if Employers were taking an <b>illegal</b> source of labor in and getting away with this... then they will of course continue to underpay illegal aliens under this new bill. It's obvious no one is checking employers at all. And to say employers are going to search for a US citizen first is a total joke that makes me laugh first, then cry after.
These immigrants will only be given permits if they're working, and as such they're contributing to the US economy. America was founded on hard working immigrants (and slaves, but let's not go there). Now I'm sure there are plenty of unemployed US citizens, but as I've said, this bill forces employers to ensure that no US citizens can be found for a position before they hire an immigrant.
Yes, hard working immigrants who came here after waiting in a huge line and registered to pay taxes and get a job. Not these low lifes who get a free ticket off of other American paychecks.
Also, this bill doesn't enforce jack-crap.
By the way, saying America was founded on slaves is like saying Austrailia was founded on Aboriginee blood.
You probably don't know this, but slaves only came into being a major source of labor after the cotten gin was invented. For the first 25 years of America's young life, slave use was decreasing due to the fact that it wasn't profitable. Amazing what technology can do, eh?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I can't see how forcing them to pay taxes, forcing them to be employed, and giving US citizen preferential treatment for employment is "sapping our system dry". The government gains valuable information about who and where these immigrants are and can as such use this information to deport these people much more easily when their time is up. For the 3 - 6 year period these workers are here, the US gains a heap of people willing to work just about anywhere, taxes, and the right and ease to select which of these people after their time is up have "what it takes" to be US citizens. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is such a terribly flawed idea to begain with I don't know where to start.
This system, first of all, only forces them to pay taxes IF they choose to register. What keeps employers from accepting more illegal immigrants? Remember, this law doesn't do anything to make sure more illegal immigrants get in...
You might say that it would be in their best interest to register, as then employers would be forced to pay them full wages, right? Wrong. It just guarentees that their source of labor will not be considered anymore from these employers, as the employers will just find more sources of illegal (and cheap) labor. Stop thinking like a politician, and like a buisiness man ready to exploit <i>the hell</i> out of this system.
Not only would it be stupid for an illegal immigrant to register, as he would toss himself out of the job market, and now he also must pay taxes (and if he doesn't pay taxes, then what? Toss him out? Lol, that's the desired result to begain with! Why go through with all of this beuracratic crap?) !
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It will be a lot easier to enforce this than trying to patrol 3,000 odd miles of borders. An immigrant worker would have to give an address, contact details, name ect, and the government would then have a very easy time in locating said immigrant and telling them to leave when their permits expired. Putting these people into the US system is actually a great way to keep track of them. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong. This won't be easy to enforce, in fact it <b>wouldn't</b> be inforced. Protecting 3,000 miles of borders? Big deal, just use our national guard. It wouldn't be difficult to do at all. A bit expensive, but it would save us cash in the form of welfare system not being abused.
Putting them into the US system (which isn't a guarentee) which only hurts them and guarentees nothing only to kick them out anyway seems like a big waste of resources to me.
I have to get off now, respond more later. (school compter getting kicked off)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->By the way, saying America was founded on slaves is like saying Austrailia was founded on Aboriginee blood. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well it was, if you count the fact that we massacred them and drove them off their land, either by outright warfare or disease. And though the cotton gin did lead to an expansion of slave labor, slaves remained important in America prior to the 19th century.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This system, first of all, only forces them to pay taxes IF they choose to register. What keeps employers from accepting more illegal immigrants? Remember, this law doesn't do anything to make sure more illegal immigrants get in...
You might say that it would be in their best interest to register, as then employers would be forced to pay them full wages, right? Wrong. It just guarentees that their source of labor will not be considered anymore from these employers, as the employers will just find more sources of illegal (and cheap) labor. Stop thinking like a politician, and like a buisiness man ready to exploit the hell out of this system. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, current system: illegal alien has no reason to say to the authorities "hey, I'm here and I'm illegal." They continue to get paid jack squat and this greatly enhances the chance of them turning to crime to support themselves. Chance of becoming and US citizen: zero. New system: immigrant knows that if he has a job and registers, the government will get him a proper wage, and he has a chance at US citizenship. Now yes, I take your point that some businesses are going to try and keep grabbing illegal immigrants cheaply, in which case, bump up the police forces that deal with this kind of thing.
This way, the people who actually want to become US citizens can try and do so and give the country some useful labor. Or they can stay on low wages and constantly be looking over their shoulder for the police.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Wrong. This won't be easy to enforce, in fact it wouldn't be inforced. Protecting 3,000 miles of borders? Big deal, just use our national guard. It wouldn't be difficult to do at all. A bit expensive, but it would save us cash in the form of welfare system not being abused. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well if it's so easy, why arn't you doing it? You make it sound like it's easy as pie to patrol thousands of miles of borders, searching for individuals, tiny boats or trucks. If it was as easy as you claim, the government would have done just that, because I can't for the life of me figure out why the US government would want millions of illegal immigrants in their country.
Side note, but one of my ancestors was found guilty of stealing 39 shillings (40 shillings being the point at which he would have been executed), and was sentenced to be deported to a prison hulk in Australia. On the journey, the prisoners revolted, overthrew the guards, and sailed the ship to America where he eventually owned a plantation.
Yay for criminal ancestry!
sorry, I'll go back to reading the thread again <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Yes, illegal immigrants need to get out. Working for beans shouldn't mean that the companies should hire them... There's a legal limit to how much you must be paid, and if companies don't pay that amount, then... well, the companies need to die, too.
Illegal Immigrants wouldn't be as much a problem if they paid taxes. They don't pay taxes, and they need to be deported. Simple. Legal immigrants are fine... it's only the illegal immigrants I have a problem with.
I don't understand what the big fuss is all about. Illegal immigrants are just that, illegal. I don't see how anyone can possibly argue that breaking the law should be rewarded (Well, I can see some people doing it...like the people who argue for criminal's rights in jail, e.g. cable TV, etc.). As a 1st generation immigrant, I'd be **** off if someone gained in the space of a couple of months what it took our family 15 years to get. That would **** me off direly. Thanks Bush, you've just lost my vote.
Cri.tical does make a good point: most of the jobs these immigrants do are hard, dirty and pretty much no-one else wants to do them. It's one thing to say that they're taking jobs away from citizens, but what if the citizens don't want to do them?
cri.tical, that's not the point. I don't live down south where there are many illegal immigrants. I live in a very rich area <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->. But, the point is, they shouldn't be here because it's illegal, plain and simple. Are you saying you shouldn't go to jail for stabbing someone? same thing, just different... 'factors'
<!--QuoteBegin--DiabolusCaligo+Jan 10 2004, 01:25 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DiabolusCaligo @ Jan 10 2004, 01:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> cri.tical, that's not the point. I don't live down south where there are many illegal immigrants. I live in a very rich area <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->. But, the point is, they shouldn't be here because it's illegal, plain and simple. Are you saying you shouldn't go to jail for stabbing someone? same thing, just different... 'factors' <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> For a slightly BETTER example:
"Does that mean you shouldn't go to jail for robbing a bank? Every dime is federally insured, no one loses any money, and no one gets hurt."
<!--QuoteBegin--DiabolusCaligo+Jan 10 2004, 06:25 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DiabolusCaligo @ Jan 10 2004, 06:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ... they shouldn't be here because it's illegal, plain and simple. Are you saying you shouldn't go to jail for stabbing someone? same thing, just different... 'factors' <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> whats right or ethical and whats legal are not always directly related. its taking too simplistic a view to liken things simply because they are both illegal, especially when your arguing about the moral implications.
Let's face it, unless you live in areas or are or related to illegal immigrants, your view will always be very shortsided. If so, then your knowledge is simply the law how it is now (Pre-2004), just because its law doesn't mean it shouldn't change or it's right.
<!--QuoteBegin--DiabolusCaligo+Jan 10 2004, 01:25 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DiabolusCaligo @ Jan 10 2004, 01:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> cri.tical, that's not the point. I don't live down south where there are many illegal immigrants. I live in a very rich area <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->. But, the point is, they shouldn't be here because it's illegal, plain and simple. Are you saying you shouldn't go to jail for stabbing someone? same thing, just different... 'factors' <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Since you consider all illegal things on the same level...
Ever downloaded a game or song on the internet? That would be no different. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> (alot of Americans have double standards about law... its ok to break it a bit personally... but when others break laws we condemn them)
If the legality of an object is in question, using an argument like "It's illegal because it's illegal" isn't exactly going to move the conversation along. Of course its illegal. We are talking about whether it <i>should be</i>.
<!--QuoteBegin--cri.tical+Jan 10 2004, 04:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (cri.tical @ Jan 10 2004, 04:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--DiabolusCaligo+Jan 10 2004, 01:25 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DiabolusCaligo @ Jan 10 2004, 01:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> cri.tical, that's not the point. I don't live down south where there are many illegal immigrants. I live in a very rich area <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->. But, the point is, they shouldn't be here because it's illegal, plain and simple. Are you saying you shouldn't go to jail for stabbing someone? same thing, just different... 'factors' <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Since you consider all illegal things on the same level...
Ever downloaded a game or song on the internet? That would be no different. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> (alot of Americans have double standards about law... its ok to break it a bit personally... but when others break laws we condemn them)
If the legality of an object is in question, using an argument like "It's illegal because it's illegal" isn't exactly going to move the conversation along. Of course its illegal. We are talking about whether it <i>should be</i>. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Downloading things illegally versus coming in here illegal have no comparison.
Does downloading software:
- Hurt others economically - Allow others to exploit me - Allow me to leech off a huge system sponsored by others
See, the enornmous difference between DL'ing some music and an illegal immigrant is that one version hurts an artist (actually, there are studies suggesting that things like Kazaa <b>increase</b> the sales of artists' as it's lots and lots of free publicity.... o_0 ), and the other hurts millions and millions of tax payers, most likely including yourself crit.
This isn't about 'losing our jobs' man, it's about people's heratige, about people's taxmoney... the jobs thing is just someone as stupid as maddox would look at to oversimplfy the problem.
- Hurt others economically <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> YES. <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> I can't believe you posted that.
And I used the music analogy because he compared illegal aliens to violent criminals (stabbing people). To be as equally dramatic, I compared music and software theft with violence.
yeah, that was a terrible example. No, I don't consider everything on the same level (though I don't download from kazaa or P2P networks), but I certainly believe that the punishments should be less liberal (you steal something, no matter what it is, 10+ years in prison... harsh punishment = scare criminals = lower crime rate)
I do like the band robbery example....
and thank you Forlorn...
illegal immigrants should get out. if you want to be part of our country, you need to pay our government...
- Hurt others economically <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> YES. <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> I can't believe you posted that. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> But does it?
Again, as I said before, there have been studies suggesting that things like Kazaa and Napster increase the sales of music artists. <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->News flash: immigrants aren't taking anything from Americans. Companies like WalMart are giving jobs to them illegally. If WalMart paid a company to hire immigrants to do the job over Americans then there's probably a good reason for it. I'm sick and tired of lazy gluttonous Americans bitching about immigrants "taking" our jobs. It's not like they can literally come to America, ambush us in the parking lot and take our jobs.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Illegal immigrants often works way below the minimum wages and takes job opportunities away from american citizen, lessening their spending power and doesnt pay any taxes (but it's not like they use any social services and or anything though). You might say they are humans as well and deserve the same right as everyone else but frankly, it doesnt say anything in the quote <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> To counter your statement, walmart is giving them job because they work below the minimum wage. Not because law-abiding american citizen are lazy.
Actually his whole article cant be applied to this thread as he is talking about legal immigrants, and if he was talking about illegal immigrant, it's againt the law for economical reasons, not racisme.
<b>Addendum:</b> And then BLAME all the faults on everything BESIDES the fact he's a freaking moron.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dude, that's complete bull crap. Clinton got a lot of cash because it was a good year, and he taxed a crap load. That was all luck and timing. Furthermore, because liberals control the media, it helped Clinton even more while he was with that woman in the Oval Office...
You can't say that bush turned it into a deficit by himself. Does 9/11 ring a bell? That cost a load of money, and was a terrible day for business, as well as completely screwed our economy. You can't say that 9/11 was Bush's fault. It may have been preventable, but since people expect to get paid so much, prevention would have cost more than 9/11 did, basically... Also, we went to war with Iraq. While that may not seem smart to you, it was. First, Hussein tried to kill Bush's father. If you wouldn't want to get some kind of revenge for something like that, then you were dropped on your head as a baby or something. Also, Iraq is oil rich. If we took it over (which we have now), we would help the economy by a lot. Guess what? Bush has the highest approval rating EVER because of that, and you people with liberal attitudes toward the war continue to argue for no reason. GET OVER IT. SUPPORT THE COUNTRY. Protesting and calling the president an idiot only makes the war more bloody and violent. In fact, a study was done on that, and yes, it is true.
I absolutely despise people who say that bush made the biggest deficit, too, as you have no grounds to say that <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Also, how has Bush made an embarrasment out of every tax-paying citizen. Clinton was the complete moron. We were the laughingstock of the WORLD. He made an **** out of everyone in the country. People associate us with Clinton and how we are so sex-driven in this country now, thanks to Clinton.
Furthermore, Bush isn't violating the constitution. The Supreme Court would have stopped him. You see, Conservatives aren't the evil **** you may think us to be. What lies are you tallking about? UN? big deal.... What's the problem? We haven't been bombed since 9/11...
Also, the defecit was amplified because he created that Homeland Security thing. That opened the door for more people to get jobs, but it also cost money, because people don't work for free, and no one else can supply it.
Jesus, you guys are never happy. And when you have the biggest idiot in the world up for insulting, you just support him... <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know! I never even heard about that whole Monica Lew . . uh . . Lewinso? Luminski? Something like that? I can't be sure, because the liberal press completely ignored her and covered her story up--along with all other alleged impropriety between Bill Clinton and women. Honestly, if we had an honest, conservative media, she would be a household name, and could probably even cash in on her constant media exposure well after Clinton left office. For <i>shame</i>, liberal media!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You can't say that bush turned it into a deficit by himself. Does 9/11 ring a bell?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Check your facts, the economy was on a slippery slope well before 9/11 . . . not necessarily all Bush's fault, but there seems to be a revisionist vibe that everything was hunky-dory before that day, and it's turned 9/11 into a general pupose excuse.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->First, Hussein tried to kill Bush's father. If you wouldn't want to get some kind of revenge for something like that, then you were dropped on your head as a baby or something.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So what sort of abuse would you have to suffer in order to sacrifice close to 500 of your contrymen for some petty revenge?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Protesting and calling the president an idiot only makes the war more bloody and violent. In fact, a study was done on that, and yes, it is true. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Bush has the highest approval rating EVER because of that<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Link, please.
Also:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also, how has Bush made an embarrasment out of every tax-paying citizen. Clinton was the complete moron. We were the laughingstock of the WORLD. He made an **** out of everyone in the country. People associate us with Clinton and how we are so sex-driven in this country now, thanks to Clinton. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't recall this-- I <i>do</i> recall that we were a laughingstock in other nations, especially European nations, because we were making such a big deal and spending millions of dollars over something that was winked at in their governments.
However, I'll take you up on this-- I'm looking for approval polling numbers abroad for Clinton and Bush. If anyone can find a reliable source, please post-- personally, I think you're projecting your feelings onto the rest of the world here.
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Why else did the dot-com crash during Clinton's final year?
If they are paying their taxes im all for it! But theres always going to be aliens that are undocumented. As for the drug dealers this is exactly why the national guard needs to be deployed!
We must start booting out all immigrants not just hispanics.
Please tell me what how I am sacrificing people in front of my principles.
<a href='http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/01/07/bush.immigration/index.html' target='_blank'>http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/01/07/...tion/index.html</a>
Now looking at this proposal, I'm really not sure where you're coming from Forlorn.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->• Workers in the United States illegally can join a temporary labor program.
• Those workers then can apply for permanent U.S. residency, but they will receive no preferential consideration.
• Employers hiring these workers must show they cannot find U.S. laborers to fill the jobs.
• These undocumented workers get guaranteed wage and employment rights.
• These workers receive a temporary three-year visa, renewable once. They are expected to return to their countries once their visas expire.
• Congress will be urged to increase the current annual limit of 140,000 green cards.
• The U.S. Department of Homeland Security will administer the program.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For starters, it gives illegal immigrants a tempting chance to gain US citizenship. Many, if not all, illegal aliens will quite likely take up this offer if it goes through. This enters them into the US system, which means that they're now paying taxes and can be easily located and kept tabs on.
It hardly hurts US citizen employment because anyone hiring these workers must show that they can't find any US citizens willing to take the job. Let's face it, even here in Australia immigrants do a lot of work that other people don't want to do.
Now that the government knows who these people are, after the 3 - 6 year period where they are allowed to work, the government can find them and make them go back home. Or these people can apply for citizenship. It's a lot easier to track people down when they're legally part of the US system.
Your comment of "Kick them out" unfortunatly ignores the simple facts that such an opperation would be cripplingly expensive. Finding all the people who have entered into the US illegally and then forcably shipping them back home would be a tremendous drain on the economy which is already looking pretty bad. This way, the US can regulate the labor they recieve from these immigrants and select the best ones for citizenship. Even better, by ensuring these immigrants have wage rights, corperations and companies won't be as tempted to hire them over US citizens because they can pay immigrants less.
What this program does not do and never claimed to do was give all illegal aliens US citizenship. It gives them a chance if they're good workers and responsable people.
Finally, please enlighten me on something. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Critical, as a taxpayer, you should realize that a large portion of your taxes go to free-loafers who simply jump the boarder... yes, as absurd as it sounds, we are giving welfare benifits to illeagal aliens!
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How? Illegal immigrants are not part of the US system, therefore I can't see how they get welfare benefits. Surely, like here in Australia, if you want welfare benefits you must provide a social security number, which last time I checked they were only given out to citizens. Under Bush's proposal, if these immigrants can't find work then it's back home:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Illegal immigrants already in the United States can only apply for the temporary worker program if they already have a job. The special status would last for three years and could be renewed once, for a total stay of six years. If temporary workers failed to stay employed or broke the law, they would be sent home, Bush said.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They have to find work, and stay in it, to utilise this program. Now isn't that helping the US economy? They're not just sitting around as you seem to think they all do.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- They are used for cheap sources of labor, and nearly nothing can be done to stop it... we we end up having more people who lose their jobs, go on welfare... which in turn directly hurts every other hard-working American citzen.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes they are used for cheap labor. This bill proposes a solution to that. Not only does it regulate wages for immigrants, it forces employers to take US citizens over immigrants! What more can you want?
By the way, your two statements contradict one another: on the one hand, you claim immigrants jump the border and become "free-loafers", but on the other hand, you say they take away jobs! So they sit around leeching off the US whilst putting in a hard days' work as well? Those cunning Mexicans!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> They are a direct insult to every single legal immigrant in America, those who waited to get in, and spent generally a decade or more getting their citizenship, and they are proud of it, something I know most Americans take for granted... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
These illegal immigrants will still have to spend 3 - 6 years trying to get citizenship, and at the end of it all, they have no more chance than anyone else trying to immigrate to the US. If they can prove that they are industrious, hard-working people then why the hell shouldn't the US want them in their country?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now, we see that the Americans simply cave in to a force they cannot stop - now is the perfect time to enter. I'm sure the message is sounding out loud and clear to all peoples who wanted in America before, but were hesitent . Now it's time for a free for all, party on the USA's tab!
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're making no sense. Say some Mexican people wish to enter the US to find employment. Well under this new law, they can only do that if they have a job offer from a US employer:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->People outside the country will also be able to obtain temporary worker status if they have a job offer from an American employer. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, so say they enter illegally. They still have to find a job. If they don't, well I'm really not sure how they're going to survive.
This has to be one of the most bizzare debates on this forum. Here I am defending BUSH against FORLORN! The world hath gone mad! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Let me try to bring you up to speed:
Fact: Illeagal aliens enter by about 10,000 everyday, mostly through Mexico. They are smuggled, run over, whatever. These people will work for beans, as it's still more than they got in their craphole aka <insert 3rd world country of origin>. Next, these aliens come over to America, and since they are working for beans they will naturally kick out whoever was in their spot working at minimum wage. They work at really backbreaking jobs, such as farms and at your local wal-mart.
Anyhow, the problem with this is that while yes, they are a source of cheap labor,
- None of them pay taxes
- The Americans who lost their job go on welfare, welfare is federally and state supported, so yes taxpayers in Alaska must give a portion of their check to some man in Texas who lost his job at a farm to an alien at a lettce farm.
- Some states, in way to take care of their growing illegal alien population, have made it so there are illegal alien 'benifits'... I know it sounds absurd but this is how it is, we use our tax money so these people can get a higher quality of life... while yes it's being a good humanatarian, it also costs a crap load of cash that puts a strain on our economy, due to the sheer number of illegal immigrants (20 million? More?), and further more, it goes back to the question of WHY ARE THE HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE... we are talking about 'i-l-l-e-g-a-l' immigrants... not legal ones.
- It's not very fair that we treat these illegal immigrants almost the same way as normal immigrants... hell, full united states citizens. Normally there is a huge waiting list for immigrants ALL over the world to come and enter America... yet, here we are, giving ourselves double standards by letting in millions of free-loaders and simulaneously slapping the faces of all legal immigrants with a hard, cold dose of logic: "Your struggle to get where you were right now in America has been a complete and total waste, had you have done things illegally they would have been faster and easier."
- Illegal immigrants come over to America and have <b>NO</b> idea of how to speak English... as a result, for a good 5-10 (not sure on how many) years, some states have had education reformed so that spanish students have their own special spanish classes... rather than learn English. The idea was to teach them stuff in Spanish while teaching them English. So far these types of programs have been a complete flop. Oh yeah, these Spanish programs also cost a whole lot of money.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How? Illegal immigrants are not part of the US system, therefore I can't see how they get welfare benefits. Surely, like here in Australia, if you want welfare benefits you must provide a social security number, which last time I checked they were only given out to citizens.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See, this is good Ryo, you carry logic, now you know why I hate some of the more liberal minded politicians in America, who do not carry such logic, because some people think that benifits should be given to these people... (Gah, almost threw up - Ted Kennedy came to mind)
And okay, while you think this law is not flawed, allow me to explain how it's terribly flawed and complete crap:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->• Workers in the United States illegally can join a temporary labor program.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yay! What a great insult to all that has been American immigrants. Also - it's not like that we don't have a lot of unemployed people or anything to fill in for these immigrants (note: this isn't true)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->• Those workers then can apply for permanent U.S. residency, but they will receive no preferential consideration.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wait a minute... this makes no sense. The reason we have so many illegal immigrants is because our quota is so low people who want in the US want in NOW. So now people can come, use up our country like a dirty wh*re, and they are just going to leave easily, like we have done so easily to kick them out now?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->• These undocumented workers get guaranteed wage and employment rights.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, this isn't a bad thing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->• These workers receive a temporary three-year visa, renewable once. They are expected to return to their countries once their visas expire.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They are expected - ROFL! Don't make me laugh. How is our magical government going to enforce this, when they did jack diddly crap to stop immigrants from entering illegallyin the first place?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->• Congress will be urged to increase the current annual limit of 140,000 green cards.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good. Increasing the quota limit is a smart move.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->• The U.S. Department of Homeland Security will administer the program.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Big whoppie do da.
Anyhow, the run down on this terrible piece of legislation:
- We are going to let 20 million + illegal immigrants off the hook, and let them continue to sap our system dry.
- We aren't going to take any steps to prevent future illegal immigrants (LOCK DOWN THE BOARDERS! JEEZ)
- This law is basically a giant inviational card for illegal immigrants to come on over and party. It is also something which completely trashes our current system for LEGAL immigrants.
So, in essesence, this law accomplishes nothing, and yet makes our country much more vulerable. If anything was a perfect testamount to Bush's stupidity, then this law is it.
Satisfied? My first post of this thread should probably make a little more sense to you now.
He has a Master in <b>Business Administration</b>. You can't possibly be suggesting that business is a hard degree. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Anyhow, this isn't a debate about Bush or about party lines.
This is about people. The key issue as I see it:
Americans feel proud to be "Americans." They don't want just anybody getting in. These (mainly) Mexican aliens are coming to America for good reasons, they want their son to grow up in a good country, or they want to make some money doing some hard work.
My personal principle is that hard work trumps "elite" status (such as citizenship). Having citizenship is like being of royal blood. You didn't do anything to earn it, you were born into it. You aren't anymore entitled to it than anybody else.
The only way to prove your entitlement is hard work. If you do good work, thats all you need to worry about. If somebody from another country wants to do hard work and try to move up in "class," more power to them.
Basically I see this as an attitude of elitism (Americans feel themselves more superior than others).
- The Americans who lost their job go on welfare, welfare is federally and state supported, so yes taxpayers in Alaska must give a portion of their check to some man in Texas who lost his job at a farm to an alien at a lettce farm.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
None of them pay taxes currently, and yes, they do take jobs away from US citizens currently as well.
That's what this law seeks to rectify: once they're on a worker's permit, they'll be paying taxes. The law also specifically states that these immigrant workers can only be given a job if no US citizen can be found to fill the job.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yay! What a great insult to all that has been American immigrants. Also - it's not like that we don't have a lot of unemployed people or anything to fill in for these immigrants<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
These immigrants will only be given permits if they're working, and as such they're contributing to the US economy. America was founded on hard working immigrants (and slaves, but let's not go there). Now I'm sure there are plenty of unemployed US citizens, but as I've said, this bill forces employers to ensure that no US citizens can be found for a position before they hire an immigrant.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->They are expected - ROFL! Don't make me laugh. How is our magical government going to enforce this, when they did jack diddly crap to stop immigrants from entering illegallyin the first place?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It will be a lot easier to enforce this than trying to patrol 3,000 odd miles of borders. An immigrant worker would have to give an address, contact details, name ect, and the government would then have a very easy time in locating said immigrant and telling them to leave when their permits expired. Putting these people into the US system is actually a great way to keep track of them.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- This law is basically a giant inviational card for illegal immigrants to come on over and party. It is also something which completely trashes our current system for LEGAL immigrants.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No it is not. As the bill states, an immigrant can only be accepted under this program if they have an offer of employment from an employer in the US, and if that employment ceases, they have to find more work or leave.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- We are going to let 20 million + illegal immigrants off the hook, and let them continue to sap our system dry.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can't see how forcing them to pay taxes, forcing them to be employed, and giving US citizen preferential treatment for employment is "sapping our system dry". The government gains valuable information about who and where these immigrants are and can as such use this information to deport these people much more easily when their time is up. For the 3 - 6 year period these workers are here, the US gains a heap of people willing to work just about anywhere, taxes, and the right and ease to select which of these people after their time is up have "what it takes" to be US citizens.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
- We aren't going to take any steps to prevent future illegal immigrants (LOCK DOWN THE BOARDERS! JEEZ)
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In Australia we know all about how hard it is to patrol and "lock down" huge expanses of border areas. Short of building a gigantic fence across the US-Mexican border, people are going to want to come to the US. If they are going to do that, why not regulate it and exploit their labor for all it's worth? The bill does not say that border region security will be relaxed, and it does not say that everyone in Mexico can just head north and they'll be greated with smiles and hugs from border police. They have to have an offer of employment and they have to stay employed.
He has a Master in <b>Business Administration</b>. You can't possibly be suggesting that business is a hard degree. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Anyhow, this isn't a debate about Bush or about party lines.
This is about people. The key issue as I see it:
Americans feel proud to be "Americans." They don't want just anybody getting in. These (mainly) Mexican aliens are coming to America for good reasons, they want their son to grow up in a good country, or they want to make some money doing some hard work.
My personal principle is that hard work trumps "elite" status (such as citizenship). Having citizenship is like being of royal blood. You didn't do anything to earn it, you were born into it. You aren't anymore entitled to it than anybody else.
The only way to prove your entitlement is hard work. If you do good work, thats all you need to worry about. If somebody from another country wants to do hard work and try to move up in "class," more power to them.
Basically I see this as an attitude of elitism (Americans feel themselves more superior than others). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
But here's the thing Critical:
Why should we respect people who break our laws and expect equal treatment?
Of course I'm going to be an elitist **** when it comes to <b>criminals.</b>
Most of America's ancestors came over to America, <b>legally</b>, and worked their way right into citizenship, started a family, and were hard workers. This is something we can all be proud of.
But illegal immigrants are completely different. They come in unwanted, bypass our current system, and take the easy way out on almost everything. I'm sorry but there's no way I'm going to respect such a class of lowlifes. Either they play by the rules or I will spend the rest of my life never to accept such trash.
Ryo, you don't get it:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->None of them pay taxes currently, and yes, they do take jobs away from US citizens currently as well.
That's what this law seeks to rectify: once they're on a worker's permit, they'll be paying taxes. The law also specifically states that these immigrant workers can only be given a job if no US citizen can be found to fill the job. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What makes sure they are going to pay taxes? What makes sure employers are going to seach for a US citizen to fill in?
I mean, if Employers were taking an <b>illegal</b> source of labor in and getting away with this... then they will of course continue to underpay illegal aliens under this new bill. It's obvious no one is checking employers at all. And to say employers are going to search for a US citizen first is a total joke that makes me laugh first, then cry after.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
These immigrants will only be given permits if they're working, and as such they're contributing to the US economy. America was founded on hard working immigrants (and slaves, but let's not go there). Now I'm sure there are plenty of unemployed US citizens, but as I've said, this bill forces employers to ensure that no US citizens can be found for a position before they hire an immigrant.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, hard working immigrants who came here after waiting in a huge line and registered to pay taxes and get a job. Not these low lifes who get a free ticket off of other American paychecks.
Also, this bill doesn't enforce jack-crap.
By the way, saying America was founded on slaves is like saying Austrailia was founded on Aboriginee blood.
You probably don't know this, but slaves only came into being a major source of labor after the cotten gin was invented. For the first 25 years of America's young life, slave use was decreasing due to the fact that it wasn't profitable. Amazing what technology can do, eh?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I can't see how forcing them to pay taxes, forcing them to be employed, and giving US citizen preferential treatment for employment is "sapping our system dry". The government gains valuable information about who and where these immigrants are and can as such use this information to deport these people much more easily when their time is up. For the 3 - 6 year period these workers are here, the US gains a heap of people willing to work just about anywhere, taxes, and the right and ease to select which of these people after their time is up have "what it takes" to be US citizens.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is such a terribly flawed idea to begain with I don't know where to start.
This system, first of all, only forces them to pay taxes IF they choose to register. What keeps employers from accepting more illegal immigrants? Remember, this law doesn't do anything to make sure more illegal immigrants get in...
You might say that it would be in their best interest to register, as then employers would be forced to pay them full wages, right? Wrong. It just guarentees that their source of labor will not be considered anymore from these employers, as the employers will just find more sources of illegal (and cheap) labor. Stop thinking like a politician, and like a buisiness man ready to exploit <i>the hell</i> out of this system.
Not only would it be stupid for an illegal immigrant to register, as he would toss himself out of the job market, and now he also must pay taxes (and if he doesn't pay taxes, then what? Toss him out? Lol, that's the desired result to begain with! Why go through with all of this beuracratic crap?) !
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It will be a lot easier to enforce this than trying to patrol 3,000 odd miles of borders. An immigrant worker would have to give an address, contact details, name ect, and the government would then have a very easy time in locating said immigrant and telling them to leave when their permits expired. Putting these people into the US system is actually a great way to keep track of them.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong. This won't be easy to enforce, in fact it <b>wouldn't</b> be inforced. Protecting 3,000 miles of borders? Big deal, just use our national guard. It wouldn't be difficult to do at all. A bit expensive, but it would save us cash in the form of welfare system not being abused.
Putting them into the US system (which isn't a guarentee) which only hurts them and guarentees nothing only to kick them out anyway seems like a big waste of resources to me.
I have to get off now, respond more later. (school compter getting kicked off)
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well it was, if you count the fact that we massacred them and drove them off their land, either by outright warfare or disease. And though the cotton gin did lead to an expansion of slave labor, slaves remained important in America prior to the 19th century.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This system, first of all, only forces them to pay taxes IF they choose to register. What keeps employers from accepting more illegal immigrants? Remember, this law doesn't do anything to make sure more illegal immigrants get in...
You might say that it would be in their best interest to register, as then employers would be forced to pay them full wages, right? Wrong. It just guarentees that their source of labor will not be considered anymore from these employers, as the employers will just find more sources of illegal (and cheap) labor. Stop thinking like a politician, and like a buisiness man ready to exploit the hell out of this system.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, current system: illegal alien has no reason to say to the authorities "hey, I'm here and I'm illegal." They continue to get paid jack squat and this greatly enhances the chance of them turning to crime to support themselves. Chance of becoming and US citizen: zero. New system: immigrant knows that if he has a job and registers, the government will get him a proper wage, and he has a chance at US citizenship. Now yes, I take your point that some businesses are going to try and keep grabbing illegal immigrants cheaply, in which case, bump up the police forces that deal with this kind of thing.
This way, the people who actually want to become US citizens can try and do so and give the country some useful labor. Or they can stay on low wages and constantly be looking over their shoulder for the police.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Wrong. This won't be easy to enforce, in fact it wouldn't be inforced. Protecting 3,000 miles of borders? Big deal, just use our national guard. It wouldn't be difficult to do at all. A bit expensive, but it would save us cash in the form of welfare system not being abused.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well if it's so easy, why arn't you doing it? You make it sound like it's easy as pie to patrol thousands of miles of borders, searching for individuals, tiny boats or trucks. If it was as easy as you claim, the government would have done just that, because I can't for the life of me figure out why the US government would want millions of illegal immigrants in their country.
Yay for criminal ancestry!
sorry, I'll go back to reading the thread again <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Illegal Immigrants wouldn't be as much a problem if they paid taxes. They don't pay taxes, and they need to be deported. Simple. Legal immigrants are fine... it's only the illegal immigrants I have a problem with.
For a slightly BETTER example:
"Does that mean you shouldn't go to jail for robbing a bank? Every dime is federally insured, no one loses any money, and no one gets hurt."
whats right or ethical and whats legal are not always directly related.
its taking too simplistic a view to liken things simply because they are both illegal, especially when your arguing about the moral implications.
Since you consider all illegal things on the same level...
Ever downloaded a game or song on the internet? That would be no different. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> (alot of Americans have double standards about law... its ok to break it a bit personally... but when others break laws we condemn them)
If the legality of an object is in question, using an argument like "It's illegal because it's illegal" isn't exactly going to move the conversation along. Of course its illegal. We are talking about whether it <i>should be</i>.
Since you consider all illegal things on the same level...
Ever downloaded a game or song on the internet? That would be no different. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> (alot of Americans have double standards about law... its ok to break it a bit personally... but when others break laws we condemn them)
If the legality of an object is in question, using an argument like "It's illegal because it's illegal" isn't exactly going to move the conversation along. Of course its illegal. We are talking about whether it <i>should be</i>. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Downloading things illegally versus coming in here illegal have no comparison.
Does downloading software:
- Hurt others economically
- Allow others to exploit me
- Allow me to leech off a huge system sponsored by others
See, the enornmous difference between DL'ing some music and an illegal immigrant is that one version hurts an artist (actually, there are studies suggesting that things like Kazaa <b>increase</b> the sales of artists' as it's lots and lots of free publicity.... o_0 ), and the other hurts millions and millions of tax payers, most likely including yourself crit.
This isn't about 'losing our jobs' man, it's about people's heratige, about people's taxmoney... the jobs thing is just someone as stupid as maddox would look at to oversimplfy the problem.
- Hurt others economically <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
YES. <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
I can't believe you posted that.
And I used the music analogy because he compared illegal aliens to violent criminals (stabbing people).
To be as equally dramatic, I compared music and software theft with violence.
I do like the band robbery example....
and thank you Forlorn...
illegal immigrants should get out. if you want to be part of our country, you need to pay our government...
- Hurt others economically <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
YES. <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
I can't believe you posted that. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
But does it?
Again, as I said before, there have been studies suggesting that things like Kazaa and Napster increase the sales of music artists. <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo-->