- Hurt others economically <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> YES. <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> I can't believe you posted that. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> But does it?
Again, as I said before, there have been studies suggesting that things like Kazaa and Napster increase the sales of music artists. <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Feel free to link to those in a PM. I'd love to read 'em for future knowledge. I will go ahead and say I doubt any study can truly represent music/software industry profits and how they are effected by file sharing.
But, on the ethical note, even if it does increase their sales, is it then ethical to steal? <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> confusing
Off Topic : <a href='http://www.rubak.com/article.cfm?ID=7' target='_blank'>MP3s and Hacks can be good for companies</a>
However ! This doesn't make it right though !
I still stand by my statement that a large majority of people opposing changed immigration laws are completely devoid of the full story. Until you live in the areas affected by immigration you will never truly understand. I live in an area with thousands of illegal farm workers, they work harder for less money, if you are worried about them taking American jobs just give them the same wages as Americans and the hardest worker will get the job.
Many people's opinions borders on bigotry, since many of you are hung up on superficial details than realism.
<!--QuoteBegin--cri.tical+Jan 10 2004, 04:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (cri.tical @ Jan 10 2004, 04:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--DiabolusCaligo+Jan 10 2004, 01:25 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DiabolusCaligo @ Jan 10 2004, 01:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> cri.tical, that's not the point. I don't live down south where there are many illegal immigrants. I live in a very rich area <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->. But, the point is, they shouldn't be here because it's illegal, plain and simple. Are you saying you shouldn't go to jail for stabbing someone? same thing, just different... 'factors' <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Since you consider all illegal things on the same level...
Ever downloaded a game or song on the internet? That would be no different. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> (alot of Americans have double standards about law... its ok to break it a bit personally... but when others break laws we condemn them)
If the legality of an object is in question, using an argument like "It's illegal because it's illegal" isn't exactly going to move the conversation along. Of course its illegal. We are talking about whether it <i>should be</i>. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Of course it should be illegal. We're talking about the value of playing by the books here. Want to change the immigration laws? Fine. But retroactively allowing people who BROKE THE LAW to go scot-free gives a very bad message to those who actually chose to follow it.
*edit* yes, that applies to downloading warez and mp3s too.
You're comparing apples and oranges anyways. You're comparing human beings and something that can be endlessly recreated by simply copying and pasting.
<!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Jan 12 2004, 12:29 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jan 12 2004, 12:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also, file sharing isn't that harmful, if at all, while illegal immigrants increases the taxes you and your parents have to pay each year.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh no. So I should be concerned only about illegal things that affect me in an adverse way?
I also haven't seen any "increase" in the taxes I've had to pay the government. Money is such an artificial system, its not like they are taking a bit of my land or one of my children every year. They are taking an imaginary human concept, and then leaving me alone. I just don't see why I should get worked up about it. If Joe Puerto Rican wants to illegally come to the US and get a job doing dirty things that Americans won't do, why not let him?
I've worked with illegal aliens back in high school at the fast food joint. They were just as human as any other fast food person, but they actually seemed to care more about the quality of the work. They are just as deserving as anybody else on the planet. The only reason we have immigration laws is to prevent people we don't like from joining our little club. I'm tired of bigotted little clubs.
We're all people, we all breath the same air, drink the same water. In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter if they come or if they don't. Go play some NS and have a good time <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
It has nothing to do with bigotry and you know it. Try driving around in Mexifornia, get sideswiped by an illegal, and try defending this BS when you learn that the illegal has no insurance. There is nothing that can be done, and since the illegal has no identification, he can run off somewhere and you'll never see him again.
You can't argue rationally with pro-illegal immigrationists, because they ALWAYS hit you with ad hominems. If it's not "you're a bigot", it's "you want to put mines on the border and shoot them all on sight" <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> Really, there are two types of pro-illegal immigrationists: those that are eager for the chance to act high and mighty and call someone a racist/bigot, and the market fundamentalist libertarian that wants to see the price of labour pulled down artificially.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh no. So I should be concerned only about illegal things that affect me in an adverse way? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The spirit of the law is far more important the the letter.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I also haven't seen any "increase" in the taxes I've had to pay the government. Money is such an artificial system, its not like they are taking a bit of my land or one of my children every year. They are taking an imaginary human concept, and then leaving me alone. I just don't see why I should get worked up about it. If Joe Puerto Rican wants to illegally come to the US and get a job doing dirty things that Americans won't do, why not let him?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You would never notice the increase in taxes, untill something like a giant tax increase comes along. You never know exactly how it's being spent, but rest assured it's going somewhere.
And money isn't artifical substance that is too materialistic; money is a direct representation of how we <i>spend our time!</i> You waste your life away trying to get some cash, why you wouldn't care about it is beyond me.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I've worked with illegal aliens back in high school at the fast food joint. They were just as human as any other fast food person, but they actually seemed to care more about the quality of the work. They are just as deserving as anybody else on the planet. The only reason we have immigration laws is to prevent people we don't like from joining our little club. I'm tired of bigotted little clubs.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The immigration laws was to prevent overexpansion and too fast of growth of our country. Go brush on your history, you will find that before we had many immigration laws in place in this country, cities became very undesireable places to be due to over-expansion.
I do think that illegal immigration laws are too scrict; we should probably double or triple our quota; but everyone wants to live in this great country, I see no reason why others deserved to be treated better than others.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->We're all people, we all breath the same air, drink the same water. In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter if they come or if they don't. Go play some NS and have a good time <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can only pray to god that life would be as simple as that. Brings a tear to my eye, I wish I could just sit down and play NS in a 3.5 billion versus 3.5 billion match on a 6 billion server. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Course, this would only happen on the HL 10 engine, but so what..!
<Offtopic> OMG HL 10!!111oneeleven HAX!!! /pokes Forlorn repeatedly, asking "When's it gonna be out?!!11" </Offtopic>
in all seriousness, though, it doesn't matter if they're human beings. The guy who just got a speeding ticket is a human. But he broke the law, and he'll have to pay a fine as punishment. The punishment for violating our borders without our permission is deportation. So what if the illegal immigrants don't cause any harm, or even benefit us? The whole attitude of "Well, it's ok to break the law as long as it benefits our society" is crap. If you think that it's better to keep illegal immigrants, change the immigration laws. Have fun with that one. But as long as it's illegal, you bet I'm going to keep saying that they should suffer the consequences.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Try driving around in Mexifornia, get sideswiped by an illegal, and try defending this BS when you learn that the illegal has no insurance. There is nothing that can be done, and since the illegal has no identification, he can run off somewhere and you'll never see him again<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're simply talking about something completely different. You're taking something that's wrong and associating it with illegal immigrants. Not all illegal immigrants drive, many take public transportation or rides from other people or simply walk or ride a bike. That pretty much takes all the steam out of that argument alone.
I live in "Mexifornia", who cares if it has a large hispanic population. I live in one of the largest areas with illegal immigrants and I have neither heard or experienced a situation involving being sideswiped by illegals. You guys really like making these people sound stupid and evil.
My main problem with most people's attitudes, and namely Forlorns at this moment, is that you guys are sacrificing very real people for some metaphysical principle. It's a law.... and ? It should change... and it has. The main TOPIC is that the law has changed, and most people's rationale is that it's against the law to be illegal. Well, newsflash, not anymore. So your argument is moot. Now all that's left is the argument that they're a "plague on our great American society..." Blegh.
Since when did we start caring more about an idea than actual people ?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You're simply talking about something completely different. You're taking something that's wrong and associating it with illegal immigrants. Not all illegal immigrants drive, many take public transportation or rides from other people or simply walk or ride a bike. That pretty much takes all the steam out of that argument alone. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Strawman. I did not say all of them did. Because illegals won't have insurance, those that drive will not compensate you in case of an accident.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I live in "Mexifornia", who cares if it has a large hispanic population. I live in one of the largest areas with illegal immigrants and I have neither heard or experienced a situation involving being sideswiped by illegals. You guys really like making these people sound stupid and evil.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Another strawman. This time, you are inching closer to the bigotry and racism garbage. Mexifornia is called such because of the huge amount of illegal immigrants from Mexico, not because of the existance of hispanics.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->My main problem with most people's attitudes, and namely Forlorns at this moment, is that you guys are sacrificing very real people for some metaphysical principle.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Metaphysical principle? What the hell are you talking about? It is a REAL problem. The solution is simple: if you want to enter into this country, take advantage of our social safety net, and use our public services, you come in LEGALLY. No questions asked. You do NOT cross the border in the middle of the night, running across peoples' property, and making people nervous as all hell because you can't be tracked by law enforcement agencies.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's a law.... and ? It should change... and it has. The main TOPIC is that the law has changed, and most people's rationale is that it's against the law to be illegal. Well, newsflash, not anymore. So your argument is moot. Now all that's left is the argument that they're a "plague on our great American society..." Blegh. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The argument is not moot. As I expected, you accuse us of being bigoted, hint at racism, and strawman our arguments to no end. Bush says that his proposed deal is not amnesty, but granting legality to illegal immigrants is amnesty BY DEFINITION. He is encouraging people to enter the country illegaly, and they will not have to face any consequences. Under Bush's plan, illegals will be covered by labor laws. Good, because that will not allow business to charge them .50c/hr under the table. However, the price of labour will still be driven down artificially. Businesses will be encouraged to pick up these illegals and pay them the minimum wage, especially in cases where the current labour market demands higher pay. Economics don't matter to illegals, because they will take the minimum wage regardless or the employer will dump them and that puts them in danger of being sent off.
You havn't even made a point in the end. All you can do is pretend that you give a crap about the illegals.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You havn't even made a point in the end. All you can do is pretend that you give a crap about the illegals. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My point is that this is a subject that can't be concluded by simply bringing up the legality of the situation, it's much deeper on the basis that these are unfortunate people who are simply trying to get by yet we feel we can't compromise our principles (In regards to "they shouldn't be able to come here illegally, they should just become legal" etc, any argument in reality) to help accomodate immigrants.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Because illegals won't have insurance, those that drive will not compensate you in case of an accident. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They shouldn't be driving, I agree. Does that mean that they are all evil people who should be deported ? No.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This time, you are inching closer to the bigotry and racism garbage. Mexifornia is called such because of the huge amount of illegal immigrants from Mexico, not because of the existance of hispanics. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for the insight, thinking that I live in California (I'm not sure where you live), but many people call California, Mexifornia, or the area I live in as Frexico because the number of mexicans, period. Not because they're illegal, but simply because they are the majority.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Metaphysical principle? What the hell are you talking about? It is a REAL problem. The solution is simple: if you want to enter into this country, take advantage of our social safety net, and use our public services, you come in LEGALLY. No questions asked. You do NOT cross the border in the middle of the night, running across peoples' property, and making people nervous as all hell because you can't be tracked by law enforcement agencies.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, an untangible opinion. You're sacrificing very real people over compromising the idea that maybe we should be a little kinder and accomodating even if that seems illogical. I don't understand the case of them using our public services, because I'm not sure how exactly they're receiving them thinking that you need a SS number to get welfare. The amount of tax money we're spending is trying to keep them out, which would be better saved revising the policies. You need to understand that I do agree they should come in legally, I do not agree that because they don't we should rough them up and toss them out.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The argument is not moot. As I expected, you accuse us of being bigoted, hint at racism, and strawman our arguments to no end.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I attend schools and have to deal with people racist towards mexicans all the time, they have the same attitudes as many people are showing here right now. I think many people should take a long time and figure out why we shouldn't allow them to stay and document them. I completely understand the Homeland Security issues and that immigrants should be responsible for their actions, but I don't want to see them get kicked out. I hear about this all the time regardless of whether they are legal or not, "toss out the beaners/wetback/etc." I think many people are being xenophobic and need to take a more rational pragmatic approach to the problem.
<!--QuoteBegin--Sirus+Jan 12 2004, 06:44 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sirus @ Jan 12 2004, 06:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Try driving around in Mexifornia, get sideswiped by an illegal, and try defending this BS when you learn that the illegal has no insurance. There is nothing that can be done, and since the illegal has no identification, he can run off somewhere and you'll never see him again<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're simply talking about something completely different. You're taking something that's wrong and associating it with illegal immigrants. Not all illegal immigrants drive, many take public transportation or rides from other people or simply walk or ride a bike. That pretty much takes all the steam out of that argument alone.
I live in "Mexifornia", who cares if it has a large hispanic population. I live in one of the largest areas with illegal immigrants and I have neither heard or experienced a situation involving being sideswiped by illegals. You guys really like making these people sound stupid and evil.
My main problem with most people's attitudes, and namely Forlorns at this moment, is that you guys are sacrificing very real people for some metaphysical principle. It's a law.... and ? It should change... and it has. The main TOPIC is that the law has changed, and most people's rationale is that it's against the law to be illegal. Well, newsflash, not anymore. So your argument is moot. Now all that's left is the argument that they're a "plague on our great American society..." Blegh.
Since when did we start caring more about an idea than actual people ? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You hold double standards, and yet you do know even know it.
If illegal immigrants should be treated the same as legal immigrants, then why should legal immigrants have a harder time getting in this country?
If illegal immigrants are allowed to come in scott-free, then why not let EVERYONE come into America? I mean, everyone deserves a shot at the best quality of living on the planet, right??! Why not let everyone in, I mean, what's the harm... Hell, what's the point of laws which restrict how fast our countries resources can be used up? There's no logic I tells ya!
<!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Jan 13 2004, 04:15 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jan 13 2004, 04:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If illegal immigrants are allowed to come in scott-free, then why not let EVERYONE come into America? I mean, everyone deserves a shot at the best quality of living on the planet, right??! Why not let everyone in, I mean, what's the harm... Hell, what's the point of laws which restrict how fast our countries resources can be used up? There's no logic I tells ya!
</blackhumor><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's quite amusing considering what the United States does to other countries' resources. WTO, anyone?
My most recent Time magazine offers some interesting insight into the problem with an interview with Fox, Mexico's PM (I think that's the title): he says that by trying to actually fix the problems that result in widespread poverty in Mexico, rather than the old adage of blaming the US from its problems (he actually said that), he hopes to remove the reason people illegally immigrate in the first place. Good man. (I think he's the only one who payed attention to my earlier post! (pg. 3) <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> )
<!--QuoteBegin--taboofires+Jan 14 2004, 08:12 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (taboofires @ Jan 14 2004, 08:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> That's quite amusing considering what the United States does to other countries' resources. WTO, anyone? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This is off topic, however I do believe that other countries who are exploited by the US is because they let themselves be.
<!--QuoteBegin--Sirus+Jan 12 2004, 06:44 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sirus @ Jan 12 2004, 06:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> My main problem with most people's attitudes, and namely Forlorns at this moment, is that you guys are sacrificing very real people for some metaphysical principle. It's a law.... and ? It should change... and it has. The main TOPIC is that the law has changed, and most people's rationale is that it's against the law to be illegal. Well, newsflash, not anymore. So your argument is moot. Now all that's left is the argument that they're a "plague on our great American society..." Blegh.
Since when did we start caring more about an idea than actual people ? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let me explain to you in a different way. It is not that we hold a principle higher than the welfare of people. It is the fact that we think that by upholding these principles, we are in fact protecting the welfare of more people than by blatantly disregarding it. As it were, I do think the immigration laws do need to change. But not so drastically, and if you look at it objectively, there is no reason for Bush's amnesty besides the fact that he's trying to get votes. Let's see what Bush's plan actually does.
<a href='http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/01/20040107-1.html' target='_blank'>White House outline of the plan</a>
<a href='http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=26788' target='_blank'>Criticism of the bill</a>
<a href='http://thomas.loc.gov/' target='_blank'>similar bill in the House of representatives (H.R.3604.IH, search for it...won't allow direct linkage)</a>
<a href='http://www.hrpolicy.org/legislation/108/s1387.pdf/' target='_blank'>a different bill (up for renewal i think)</a>
The law has not changed. A change has been proposed, but not passed. Let's take a look at the concerns over what might happen should we grant "amnesty" to the illegal immigrants.
1) There is no gaurantee of minimum benefit. Illegal immigrants are fired when they try to organize for better conditions now, and I don't see anything that will prevent this from happening again. (Quoting the HR bill: "prevailing wages" are a minimum. No mention of a hard minimum, just "prevailing" which means the companies are scot-free to pay whatever the hell they like) 2) Even if they are gauranteed a minimum benefit, there is very little to prevent companies from going to more illegal immigrants, to which these benefits are not given. 3) There is no mention of increased border patrol or anything to discourage further illegal immigration. 4) It's against the law. Telling people that breaking the law will be rewarded does nothing to discourage people from breaking it again. What happens if you fail to be re-admitted after 3 years? Just go back home? It's probably that people will try to come back, by illegal means if necessary, whatever their status is. This defeats the whole purpose of the program.
There are a lot of other issues I can see, but since I don't have enough information on the topic right now, I'll have to get back on that.
Furthermore, metaphysical principles are important. What about freedom? Millions of Americans sacrificed their lives to preserve ours. Are you going to say that they should have been "selfish" and said "no, screw you! Our lives are more important than some metaphysical principle"? It is merely our belief that the law should be obeyed. I see no wrong in that.
<!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Jan 14 2004, 09:36 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jan 14 2004, 09:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--taboofires+Jan 14 2004, 08:12 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (taboofires @ Jan 14 2004, 08:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> That's quite amusing considering what the United States does to other countries' resources. WTO, anyone? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is off topic, however I do believe that other countries who are exploited by the US is because they let themselves be. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Thus making it right? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--cri.tical+Jan 14 2004, 05:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (cri.tical @ Jan 14 2004, 05:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Jan 14 2004, 09:36 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jan 14 2004, 09:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--taboofires+Jan 14 2004, 08:12 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (taboofires @ Jan 14 2004, 08:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> That's quite amusing considering what the United States does to other countries' resources. WTO, anyone? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is off topic, however I do believe that other countries who are exploited by the US is because they let themselves be. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thus making it right? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Not at all, but it's certainly not just the US's fault.
Our mentality of exploiting whatever is nessesary in order to accomplish our goals (well this is human mentality - but perhaps America can especially take the award for this one being home to one of the most capitalistic nations on earth, next to England) appears to be too much for most countries.
Our companies go to other countries and offer to them what sounds like a great offer, but is actually going to exploit the hell out of said country's people. Who's fault is that? In America, gaining whatever small advantage you have is the way to make it to the top. So is it America's fault for creating the monster, or the other's country's fault for not wising up to the monster and stopping them.
Indeed, some countries already have smarted up to not be exploited, but the company just packs up and moves to another land to exploit.
And thus, we reach the ultimate conclusion:
Education is the best prevention. If every country wised up to setting some standards for themselves, then companies would have a much harder time exploiting 3rd world countries.
Unfortionatlely, this would require all countries to go with industrial globalization... which not all countries will do, for one reason or another. I'm fairly certain the US doesn't want to be part of globalization as it would hurt our economy a lot, and other countries say no to globalization because... I'm not sure on why not actually.
I do believe that what will happen is that all countries will learn the hard way of why they shouldn't let a company exploit their people.
It has so far happened to every other country in the world as far as I know it, so I guess it's gonna have to happen to other developing countries as well.
Anyhow, I'm really off-topic (on my own topic... sheesh Critical <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> ) but yeah...
I wouldn't call it a "human" mentality, but it certainly is one of the highest virtues of our particular, heavily market capitalist society.
The threat of "take my cheap offer for your resources or I'll put my considerable weight behind causing you trouble" is pretty hard to resist. Corrupt governments also don't fare well against the WTO (except for the few in power, of course. They get their share).
I hope that some day a benign governing body(s) take care of the things that really matter. Yeah, I know, that's a lot to ask. I can still dream.
Even if it's off-topic, it's still a good topic. Behold the discussing!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1) There is no gaurantee of minimum benefit. Illegal immigrants are fired when they try to organize for better conditions now, and I don't see anything that will prevent this from happening again. (Quoting the HR bill: "prevailing wages" are a minimum. No mention of a hard minimum, just "prevailing" which means the companies are scot-free to pay whatever the hell they like)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's not what I've heard, Illegal Immigrants can apply for a three year guest working program (temporary amnesty) and benefit from minimum wage and all other benefits entitled to any other American worker. At the end of this time they can, A. Apply for permanent citizenship B. Ask for a possible renewal.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Let me explain to you in a different way. It is not that we hold a principle higher than the welfare of people. It is the fact that we think that by upholding these principles, we are in fact protecting the welfare of more people than by blatantly disregarding it. As it were, I do think the immigration laws do need to change. But not so drastically, and if you look at it objectively, there is no reason for Bush's amnesty besides the fact that he's trying to get votes.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think we're protecting anyone by upholding principles that do nothing more than keep other people out while we sit in our cozy houses oblivious to the hardships of other people and countries simply because we don't have to. If you want to talk about thinking objectively you would have to, although cliche, stand in their shoes. I don't think it's such a compromise to make concessions to help people even if they aren't Americans simply on the fact that we are so fortunate to live the way we do. Just to note also, the actual generalities of the plan was drafted by Vicente Fox who has been in contact with Bush ever since Bush was governor of Texas. So I think this has less to do with getting votes and more to do with solving an old problem and mending a stale relationship with Mexico ( Although I don't ignore that it does help and the fact that if some people don't like something they will always blame it on him wanting votes ). It's our responsibility to help our neighbors, in the words of Winston Churchill, "the price of greatness if responsibility". It's time for the US to take steps towards solving this problem and helping Mexico get back up on their feet, in time, it won't be an issue at all.
In regards to how drastic it is, I wouldn't say it is. Some liberals seem to think it doesn't do enough, and many republicans think it does too much. To me, it's more of a bipartisan act to fulfill a mutual agreement with Fox that something has to be done.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2) Even if they are gauranteed a minimum benefit, there is very little to prevent companies from going to more illegal immigrants, to which these benefits are not given.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can never make people do the right thing but there's nothing wrong with trying to make it easier to do something correct. That's the what this legislation is about, trying to get aliens documented and assisting them in the process of working and getting fair wages and eventually full citizenship.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->3) There is no mention of increased border patrol or anything to discourage further illegal immigration.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the whole point is to discourage illegal immigration through other means rather than increased border control.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->4) It's against the law. Telling people that breaking the law will be rewarded does nothing to discourage people from breaking it again. What happens if you fail to be re-admitted after 3 years? Just go back home? It's probably that people will try to come back, by illegal means if necessary, whatever their status is. This defeats the whole purpose of the program. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Although I could bring up substantial reasoning for why that's not as revelant as it seems I will simply opt for saying that I don't really care. I care more about the welfare of the illegal immigrants and the welfare of Mexico as a whole rather than a bunch of Americans who are uncomfortable with this legislation. I'm mentally fatigued by trying to assist people in understanding what I mean. Perhaps it's just one of those things that you understand or you don't, for now I will just take comfort in the fact that none of you are congressmen <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->.
<!--QuoteBegin--Sirus+Jan 15 2004, 06:50 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sirus @ Jan 15 2004, 06:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Although I could bring up substantial reasoning for why that's not as revelant as it seems I will simply opt for saying that I don't really care. I care more about the welfare of the illegal immigrants and the welfare of Mexico as a whole rather than a bunch of Americans who are uncomfortable with this legislation. I'm mentally fatigued by trying to assist people in understanding what I mean. Perhaps it's just one of those things that you understand or you don't, for now I will just take comfort in the fact that none of you are congressmen <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So the big popper of the day:
<!--QuoteBegin--Sirus+Jan 18 2004, 03:50 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sirus @ Jan 18 2004, 03:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Because there is no future for me in Mexico. Hmm. Now doesn't that correlate with something... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So why let America turn into one?
No... Mexican people aren't stupid and lazy and therefore they have a bad country. Their previous governments drove it into the ground. Our countries base was on federalism and has always allowed us to have a somewhat efficient profitable country.
Comments
<!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Jan 11 2004, 02:55 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jan 11 2004, 02:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--cri.tical+Jan 10 2004, 07:08 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (cri.tical @ Jan 10 2004, 07:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Jan 10 2004, 05:47 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jan 10 2004, 05:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Does downloading software:
- Hurt others economically <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
YES. <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
I can't believe you posted that. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But does it?
Again, as I said before, there have been studies suggesting that things like Kazaa and Napster increase the sales of music artists. <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Feel free to link to those in a PM. I'd love to read 'em for future knowledge.
I will go ahead and say I doubt any study can truly represent music/software industry profits and how they are effected by file sharing.
But, on the ethical note, even if it does increase their sales, is it then ethical to steal? <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> confusing
However ! This doesn't make it right though !
I still stand by my statement that a large majority of people opposing changed immigration laws are completely devoid of the full story. Until you live in the areas affected by immigration you will never truly understand. I live in an area with thousands of illegal farm workers, they work harder for less money, if you are worried about them taking American jobs just give them the same wages as Americans and the hardest worker will get the job.
Many people's opinions borders on bigotry, since many of you are hung up on superficial details than realism.
Since you consider all illegal things on the same level...
Ever downloaded a game or song on the internet? That would be no different. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> (alot of Americans have double standards about law... its ok to break it a bit personally... but when others break laws we condemn them)
If the legality of an object is in question, using an argument like "It's illegal because it's illegal" isn't exactly going to move the conversation along. Of course its illegal. We are talking about whether it <i>should be</i>. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course it should be illegal. We're talking about the value of playing by the books here. Want to change the immigration laws? Fine. But retroactively allowing people who BROKE THE LAW to go scot-free gives a very bad message to those who actually chose to follow it.
*edit* yes, that applies to downloading warez and mp3s too.
Also, file sharing isn't that harmful, if at all, while illegal immigrants increases the taxes you and your parents have to pay each year.
Oh no. So I should be concerned only about illegal things that affect me in an adverse way?
I also haven't seen any "increase" in the taxes I've had to pay the government. Money is such an artificial system, its not like they are taking a bit of my land or one of my children every year. They are taking an imaginary human concept, and then leaving me alone. I just don't see why I should get worked up about it. If Joe Puerto Rican wants to illegally come to the US and get a job doing dirty things that Americans won't do, why not let him?
I've worked with illegal aliens back in high school at the fast food joint. They were just as human as any other fast food person, but they actually seemed to care more about the quality of the work. They are just as deserving as anybody else on the planet. The only reason we have immigration laws is to prevent people we don't like from joining our little club. I'm tired of bigotted little clubs.
We're all people, we all breath the same air, drink the same water. In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter if they come or if they don't. Go play some NS and have a good time <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
You can't argue rationally with pro-illegal immigrationists, because they ALWAYS hit you with ad hominems. If it's not "you're a bigot", it's "you want to put mines on the border and shoot them all on sight" <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> Really, there are two types of pro-illegal immigrationists: those that are eager for the chance to act high and mighty and call someone a racist/bigot, and the market fundamentalist libertarian that wants to see the price of labour pulled down artificially.
The spirit of the law is far more important the the letter.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I also haven't seen any "increase" in the taxes I've had to pay the government. Money is such an artificial system, its not like they are taking a bit of my land or one of my children every year. They are taking an imaginary human concept, and then leaving me alone. I just don't see why I should get worked up about it. If Joe Puerto Rican wants to illegally come to the US and get a job doing dirty things that Americans won't do, why not let him?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You would never notice the increase in taxes, untill something like a giant tax increase comes along. You never know exactly how it's being spent, but rest assured it's going somewhere.
And money isn't artifical substance that is too materialistic; money is a direct representation of how we <i>spend our time!</i> You waste your life away trying to get some cash, why you wouldn't care about it is beyond me.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I've worked with illegal aliens back in high school at the fast food joint. They were just as human as any other fast food person, but they actually seemed to care more about the quality of the work. They are just as deserving as anybody else on the planet. The only reason we have immigration laws is to prevent people we don't like from joining our little club. I'm tired of bigotted little clubs.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The immigration laws was to prevent overexpansion and too fast of growth of our country. Go brush on your history, you will find that before we had many immigration laws in place in this country, cities became very undesireable places to be due to over-expansion.
I do think that illegal immigration laws are too scrict; we should probably double or triple our quota; but everyone wants to live in this great country, I see no reason why others deserved to be treated better than others.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->We're all people, we all breath the same air, drink the same water. In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter if they come or if they don't. Go play some NS and have a good time <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can only pray to god that life would be as simple as that. Brings a tear to my eye, I wish I could just sit down and play NS in a 3.5 billion versus 3.5 billion match on a 6 billion server. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Course, this would only happen on the HL 10 engine, but so what..!
OMG HL 10!!111oneeleven HAX!!!
/pokes Forlorn repeatedly, asking "When's it gonna be out?!!11"
</Offtopic>
in all seriousness, though, it doesn't matter if they're human beings. The guy who just got a speeding ticket is a human. But he broke the law, and he'll have to pay a fine as punishment. The punishment for violating our borders without our permission is deportation. So what if the illegal immigrants don't cause any harm, or even benefit us? The whole attitude of "Well, it's ok to break the law as long as it benefits our society" is crap. If you think that it's better to keep illegal immigrants, change the immigration laws. Have fun with that one. But as long as it's illegal, you bet I'm going to keep saying that they should suffer the consequences.
You're simply talking about something completely different. You're taking something that's wrong and associating it with illegal immigrants. Not all illegal immigrants drive, many take public transportation or rides from other people or simply walk or ride a bike. That pretty much takes all the steam out of that argument alone.
I live in "Mexifornia", who cares if it has a large hispanic population. I live in one of the largest areas with illegal immigrants and I have neither heard or experienced a situation involving being sideswiped by illegals. You guys really like making these people sound stupid and evil.
My main problem with most people's attitudes, and namely Forlorns at this moment, is that you guys are sacrificing very real people for some metaphysical principle. It's a law.... and ? It should change... and it has. The main TOPIC is that the law has changed, and most people's rationale is that it's against the law to be illegal. Well, newsflash, not anymore. So your argument is moot. Now all that's left is the argument that they're a "plague on our great American society..." Blegh.
Since when did we start caring more about an idea than actual people ?
Strawman. I did not say all of them did. Because illegals won't have insurance, those that drive will not compensate you in case of an accident.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I live in "Mexifornia", who cares if it has a large hispanic population. I live in one of the largest areas with illegal immigrants and I have neither heard or experienced a situation involving being sideswiped by illegals. You guys really like making these people sound stupid and evil.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Another strawman. This time, you are inching closer to the bigotry and racism garbage. Mexifornia is called such because of the huge amount of illegal immigrants from Mexico, not because of the existance of hispanics.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->My main problem with most people's attitudes, and namely Forlorns at this moment, is that you guys are sacrificing very real people for some metaphysical principle.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Metaphysical principle? What the hell are you talking about? It is a REAL problem. The solution is simple: if you want to enter into this country, take advantage of our social safety net, and use our public services, you come in LEGALLY. No questions asked. You do NOT cross the border in the middle of the night, running across peoples' property, and making people nervous as all hell because you can't be tracked by law enforcement agencies.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's a law.... and ? It should change... and it has. The main TOPIC is that the law has changed, and most people's rationale is that it's against the law to be illegal. Well, newsflash, not anymore. So your argument is moot. Now all that's left is the argument that they're a "plague on our great American society..." Blegh. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The argument is not moot. As I expected, you accuse us of being bigoted, hint at racism, and strawman our arguments to no end. Bush says that his proposed deal is not amnesty, but granting legality to illegal immigrants is amnesty BY DEFINITION. He is encouraging people to enter the country illegaly, and they will not have to face any consequences. Under Bush's plan, illegals will be covered by labor laws. Good, because that will not allow business to charge them .50c/hr under the table. However, the price of labour will still be driven down artificially. Businesses will be encouraged to pick up these illegals and pay them the minimum wage, especially in cases where the current labour market demands higher pay. Economics don't matter to illegals, because they will take the minimum wage regardless or the employer will dump them and that puts them in danger of being sent off.
You havn't even made a point in the end. All you can do is pretend that you give a crap about the illegals.
My point is that this is a subject that can't be concluded by simply bringing up the legality of the situation, it's much deeper on the basis that these are unfortunate people who are simply trying to get by yet we feel we can't compromise our principles (In regards to "they shouldn't be able to come here illegally, they should just become legal" etc, any argument in reality) to help accomodate immigrants.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Because illegals won't have insurance, those that drive will not compensate you in case of an accident. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They shouldn't be driving, I agree. Does that mean that they are all evil people who should be deported ? No.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This time, you are inching closer to the bigotry and racism garbage. Mexifornia is called such because of the huge amount of illegal immigrants from Mexico, not because of the existance of hispanics.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for the insight, thinking that I live in California (I'm not sure where you live), but many people call California, Mexifornia, or the area I live in as Frexico because the number of mexicans, period. Not because they're illegal, but simply because they are the majority.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Metaphysical principle? What the hell are you talking about? It is a REAL problem. The solution is simple: if you want to enter into this country, take advantage of our social safety net, and use our public services, you come in LEGALLY. No questions asked. You do NOT cross the border in the middle of the night, running across peoples' property, and making people nervous as all hell because you can't be tracked by law enforcement agencies.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, an untangible opinion. You're sacrificing very real people over compromising the idea that maybe we should be a little kinder and accomodating even if that seems illogical. I don't understand the case of them using our public services, because I'm not sure how exactly they're receiving them thinking that you need a SS number to get welfare. The amount of tax money we're spending is trying to keep them out, which would be better saved revising the policies. You need to understand that I do agree they should come in legally, I do not agree that because they don't we should rough them up and toss them out.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The argument is not moot. As I expected, you accuse us of being bigoted, hint at racism, and strawman our arguments to no end.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I attend schools and have to deal with people racist towards mexicans all the time, they have the same attitudes as many people are showing here right now. I think many people should take a long time and figure out why we shouldn't allow them to stay and document them. I completely understand the Homeland Security issues and that immigrants should be responsible for their actions, but I don't want to see them get kicked out. I hear about this all the time regardless of whether they are legal or not, "toss out the beaners/wetback/etc." I think many people are being xenophobic and need to take a more rational pragmatic approach to the problem.
You're simply talking about something completely different. You're taking something that's wrong and associating it with illegal immigrants. Not all illegal immigrants drive, many take public transportation or rides from other people or simply walk or ride a bike. That pretty much takes all the steam out of that argument alone.
I live in "Mexifornia", who cares if it has a large hispanic population. I live in one of the largest areas with illegal immigrants and I have neither heard or experienced a situation involving being sideswiped by illegals. You guys really like making these people sound stupid and evil.
My main problem with most people's attitudes, and namely Forlorns at this moment, is that you guys are sacrificing very real people for some metaphysical principle. It's a law.... and ? It should change... and it has. The main TOPIC is that the law has changed, and most people's rationale is that it's against the law to be illegal. Well, newsflash, not anymore. So your argument is moot. Now all that's left is the argument that they're a "plague on our great American society..." Blegh.
Since when did we start caring more about an idea than actual people ? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You hold double standards, and yet you do know even know it.
If illegal immigrants should be treated the same as legal immigrants, then why should legal immigrants have a harder time getting in this country?
If illegal immigrants are allowed to come in scott-free, then why not let EVERYONE come into America? I mean, everyone deserves a shot at the best quality of living on the planet, right??! Why not let everyone in, I mean, what's the harm... Hell, what's the point of laws which restrict how fast our countries resources can be used up? There's no logic I tells ya!
</blackhumor>
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That's quite amusing considering what the United States does to other countries' resources. WTO, anyone?
My most recent Time magazine offers some interesting insight into the problem with an interview with Fox, Mexico's PM (I think that's the title): he says that by trying to actually fix the problems that result in widespread poverty in Mexico, rather than the old adage of blaming the US from its problems (he actually said that), he hopes to remove the reason people illegally immigrate in the first place. Good man. (I think he's the only one who payed attention to my earlier post! (pg. 3) <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> )
This is off topic, however I do believe that other countries who are exploited by the US is because they let themselves be.
My main problem with most people's attitudes, and namely Forlorns at this moment, is that you guys are sacrificing very real people for some metaphysical principle. It's a law.... and ? It should change... and it has. The main TOPIC is that the law has changed, and most people's rationale is that it's against the law to be illegal. Well, newsflash, not anymore. So your argument is moot. Now all that's left is the argument that they're a "plague on our great American society..." Blegh.
Since when did we start caring more about an idea than actual people ? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let me explain to you in a different way. It is not that we hold a principle higher than the welfare of people. It is the fact that we think that by upholding these principles, we are in fact protecting the welfare of more people than by blatantly disregarding it. As it were, I do think the immigration laws do need to change. But not so drastically, and if you look at it objectively, there is no reason for Bush's amnesty besides the fact that he's trying to get votes.
Let's see what Bush's plan actually does.
<a href='http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/01/20040107-1.html' target='_blank'>White House outline of the plan</a>
<a href='http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=26788' target='_blank'>Criticism of the bill</a>
<a href='http://thomas.loc.gov/' target='_blank'>similar bill in the House of representatives (H.R.3604.IH, search for it...won't allow direct linkage)</a>
<a href='http://www.hrpolicy.org/legislation/108/s1387.pdf/' target='_blank'>a different bill (up for renewal i think)</a>
<a href='http://www.fairus.org/Research/Research.cfm?ID=403&c=2' target='_blank'>interesting immigration facts</a>
<a href='http://portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$KX2OZMAAAGFF1QFIQMGSFFWAVCBQWIV0?xml=/news/2001/07/18/wimm18.xml' target='_blank'>the rumor mill</a>
The law has not changed. A change has been proposed, but not passed. Let's take a look at the concerns over what might happen should we grant "amnesty" to the illegal immigrants.
1) There is no gaurantee of minimum benefit. Illegal immigrants are fired when they try to organize for better conditions now, and I don't see anything that will prevent this from happening again. (Quoting the HR bill: "prevailing wages" are a minimum. No mention of a hard minimum, just "prevailing" which means the companies are scot-free to pay whatever the hell they like)
2) Even if they are gauranteed a minimum benefit, there is very little to prevent companies from going to more illegal immigrants, to which these benefits are not given.
3) There is no mention of increased border patrol or anything to discourage further illegal immigration.
4) It's against the law. Telling people that breaking the law will be rewarded does nothing to discourage people from breaking it again. What happens if you fail to be re-admitted after 3 years? Just go back home? It's probably that people will try to come back, by illegal means if necessary, whatever their status is. This defeats the whole purpose of the program.
There are a lot of other issues I can see, but since I don't have enough information on the topic right now, I'll have to get back on that.
Furthermore, metaphysical principles are important. What about freedom? Millions of Americans sacrificed their lives to preserve ours. Are you going to say that they should have been "selfish" and said "no, screw you! Our lives are more important than some metaphysical principle"? It is merely our belief that the law should be obeyed. I see no wrong in that.
*edit* links were messed up, added some stuff
This is off topic, however I do believe that other countries who are exploited by the US is because they let themselves be. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thus making it right? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
This is off topic, however I do believe that other countries who are exploited by the US is because they let themselves be. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thus making it right? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not at all, but it's certainly not just the US's fault.
Our mentality of exploiting whatever is nessesary in order to accomplish our goals (well this is human mentality - but perhaps America can especially take the award for this one being home to one of the most capitalistic nations on earth, next to England) appears to be too much for most countries.
Our companies go to other countries and offer to them what sounds like a great offer, but is actually going to exploit the hell out of said country's people. Who's fault is that? In America, gaining whatever small advantage you have is the way to make it to the top. So is it America's fault for creating the monster, or the other's country's fault for not wising up to the monster and stopping them.
Indeed, some countries already have smarted up to not be exploited, but the company just packs up and moves to another land to exploit.
And thus, we reach the ultimate conclusion:
Education is the best prevention. If every country wised up to setting some standards for themselves, then companies would have a much harder time exploiting 3rd world countries.
Unfortionatlely, this would require all countries to go with industrial globalization... which not all countries will do, for one reason or another. I'm fairly certain the US doesn't want to be part of globalization as it would hurt our economy a lot, and other countries say no to globalization because... I'm not sure on why not actually.
I do believe that what will happen is that all countries will learn the hard way of why they shouldn't let a company exploit their people.
It has so far happened to every other country in the world as far as I know it, so I guess it's gonna have to happen to other developing countries as well.
Anyhow, I'm really off-topic (on my own topic... sheesh Critical <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> ) but yeah...
The threat of "take my cheap offer for your resources or I'll put my considerable weight behind causing you trouble" is pretty hard to resist. Corrupt governments also don't fare well against the WTO (except for the few in power, of course. They get their share).
I hope that some day a benign governing body(s) take care of the things that really matter. Yeah, I know, that's a lot to ask. I can still dream.
Even if it's off-topic, it's still a good topic. Behold the discussing!
That's not what I've heard, Illegal Immigrants can apply for a three year guest working program (temporary amnesty) and benefit from minimum wage and all other benefits entitled to any other American worker. At the end of this time they can, A. Apply for permanent citizenship B. Ask for a possible renewal.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Let me explain to you in a different way. It is not that we hold a principle higher than the welfare of people. It is the fact that we think that by upholding these principles, we are in fact protecting the welfare of more people than by blatantly disregarding it. As it were, I do think the immigration laws do need to change. But not so drastically, and if you look at it objectively, there is no reason for Bush's amnesty besides the fact that he's trying to get votes.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think we're protecting anyone by upholding principles that do nothing more than keep other people out while we sit in our cozy houses oblivious to the hardships of other people and countries simply because we don't have to. If you want to talk about thinking objectively you would have to, although cliche, stand in their shoes. I don't think it's such a compromise to make concessions to help people even if they aren't Americans simply on the fact that we are so fortunate to live the way we do. Just to note also, the actual generalities of the plan was drafted by Vicente Fox who has been in contact with Bush ever since Bush was governor of Texas. So I think this has less to do with getting votes and more to do with solving an old problem and mending a stale relationship with Mexico ( Although I don't ignore that it does help and the fact that if some people don't like something they will always blame it on him wanting votes ). It's our responsibility to help our neighbors, in the words of Winston Churchill, "the price of greatness if responsibility". It's time for the US to take steps towards solving this problem and helping Mexico get back up on their feet, in time, it won't be an issue at all.
In regards to how drastic it is, I wouldn't say it is. Some liberals seem to think it doesn't do enough, and many republicans think it does too much. To me, it's more of a bipartisan act to fulfill a mutual agreement with Fox that something has to be done.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2) Even if they are gauranteed a minimum benefit, there is very little to prevent companies from going to more illegal immigrants, to which these benefits are not given.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can never make people do the right thing but there's nothing wrong with trying to make it easier to do something correct. That's the what this legislation is about, trying to get aliens documented and assisting them in the process of working and getting fair wages and eventually full citizenship.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->3) There is no mention of increased border patrol or anything to discourage further illegal immigration.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the whole point is to discourage illegal immigration through other means rather than increased border control.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->4) It's against the law. Telling people that breaking the law will be rewarded does nothing to discourage people from breaking it again. What happens if you fail to be re-admitted after 3 years? Just go back home? It's probably that people will try to come back, by illegal means if necessary, whatever their status is. This defeats the whole purpose of the program.
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Although I could bring up substantial reasoning for why that's not as revelant as it seems I will simply opt for saying that I don't really care. I care more about the welfare of the illegal immigrants and the welfare of Mexico as a whole rather than a bunch of Americans who are uncomfortable with this legislation. I'm mentally fatigued by trying to assist people in understanding what I mean. Perhaps it's just one of those things that you understand or you don't, for now I will just take comfort in the fact that none of you are congressmen <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->.
So the big popper of the day:
Why not move to mexico?
So why let America turn into one?