<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=61455' target='_blank'>Here's</a> an alternative/addition to RfK that I suggested recently.
Basically, RfD means that you get res for killing enemy structures. I believe people who made the effort to destroy enemy strucutres should be rewarded somehow. Getting points is cool, but it doesn't really help the team, bonus res would. Thoughts?
On the pub side of the game, it's well known that aliens have a HUGE disadvantage with teams of 9+ players. RFK is the one thing that helps balance this out. Without RFK, the marines could just electrify everything, and it would be ages before the aliens could get their first fade or 2nd hive for bilebomb, even with 5 res nodes. The only bad thing about RFK in my opinion is the teched turtling marines in their base on one res node, who have already lost. Typically this is only a big problem if they've relocated into a hive, because 3rd hive abilities base bust pretty well (charge needs to be reworked though and acid rocket will be). However, any solution to this will probably make the system too complicated, and simple systems that have slight balance issues are much better than complex systems that have a way of only getting worse.
I really don't notice RFK that much, I guess it must make a difference but if one side is getting more kills then surely they must have some more skill and therefore be privlaged to better equipment?
but, why would you add "points for kills" in a Capture the flag, or a Domination game? That would just be ridiculous!
You get an advantage from killing them anyway, it means you can take their RTs, etc. Its just weird to have a direct instant benefit as well. This is war! Not deathmatch!
Take out RFKs, thats what Combat is for.
Give gorges 1/2 the res that their nozzles produce until it has given the gorge 25. That way gorges can keep building stuff in large games and so on.
If RFK stays, perhaps one resource goes to the alien who made the kill, and if any more resources were gained, they go to the common resource pool? It still rewards the killer while helping the team.
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
<!--QuoteBegin-d0omie+Feb 7 2004, 03:20 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (d0omie @ Feb 7 2004, 03:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> but, why would you add "points for kills" in a Capture the flag, or a Domination game? That would just be ridiculous!
You get an advantage from killing them anyway, it means you can take their RTs, etc. Its just weird to have a direct instant benefit as well. This is war! Not deathmatch!
Take out RFKs, thats what Combat is for.
Give gorges 1/2 the res that their nozzles produce until it has given the gorge 25. That way gorges can keep building stuff in large games and so on. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> 25? wouldn't 15 make more sense?
RFK is where onos come from <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I like the RFK, but then again I started late and never played a game without it. But there should really be some delay on those freaking electrified resource nodes. Like they should NOT appear at the very start of the game like they always do.
well i don't see why we get that much res for killing a tiny thing. i think that they should only get 1 res per kill.
rfk helped alien a lot, but for marines...... they just drag the game way to long if they are being capped by aliens.
i think they should try and remove rfk in this version and let people to test it. I don't think that it will affect the marines early on in the game, but aliens... i don't know if they can get to onos that fast compare to know, so we'll have to test it out before we know anyhting
when i first read the post, i think it was outrageaous, but then again when i took time to think about it, it's worth trying to remove rfk and see any problem.
Some of you dont get it. This isnt the place to discuss alternatives to RFK. I wanted to know the benefits/cost of having it in the game.
Doobie Dan: right, I forgot about that. Large games pre-RFK were extremely hard to win for aliens. RFK sorta eases this, but its still a problem. I guess thats score 1 for RFK...
Sm|o||o|th: yep, RFK encourages kills, and thus discourages the doing (cant think of a good word right now) of objectives. Why should mr fade waste his time taking out the electric res node when he can be out earning back his investment?
lagger: WHY is it supported in the veteran circles? I dont care who, I wanna know WHY.
Basinx: get outta my thread! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
With RFK, I can drop weapons and expect shotguns to pay for themselves after four kills. HMGs in 5, and the rare GL in 10 (Which with the way grenades are working out in 3.0b, it's quite feasable for a single marine to get this many with some skill.)
Before RFK, I wouldn't even think of dropping heavy weapons to light armor. Shotguns in the hands of a good player can be devestating, but really, they're not economically feasable. A small group of LMGers has roughly the same killing potental against skulks as a group of marines with a shotgun, simply because marines can block each other's pellets, and focused fire, even with LMGs, rips aliens to shreds.
Factoring RFK, squads of marines that are send out on expeditionary missions to cap resnodes, can be expected to pay for an investment in weapons, making them both effective in combat and economically feasable.
Same thing goes with aliens. Going Onos is a way to kill a lot of marines very, very quickly. However, taking focused shotgun/HMG fire will down that 100 res investment just as fast. Without RFK, a player can expect to go onos maybe once every few games, due to the huge allotment of rescources needed to evolve. RFK allows aliens to pay for their own upgrades, which in turn enourages them to evolve to higher lifeforms. Without it, 90% of the players on the field will be skulks, completely ineffective to take down elect'd nodes or marine groups, even in LA with a few basic weapon and armor upgrades.
RFK Allows players and teams to get off of the baseline tech and move into the higher level, more fun branches of the tech tree. Games where a player never evolves/ is equipped beyond their spawn configuration limits them to a single playstyle, defeating the purpose of even having multiple lifeforms and an advanced tech tree.
The only thing I have seen from RFK is the times where a single skulk dominates the marine team and then either puts up a hive or goes fade/onos and gg.
I was playing Orgions, and I and a few others were truely dominating the marines. They came to cargo, I told the team they were coming and they were there when I died after killing two and maiming a few. They then shredded the stragglers but were flanked and ultimately destroyed. I respawned and ran for cargo and dominated a few of them then the rest of the team come and own them. Pretty much at the 6 or 7 minute mark, I onos with the second hive up and a new player as well. We rape them for about ten minutes then rape the base. In the time, they get Heavies and what not. I die 3 times and onos again every time from RFK. Simpley put, RFK unbalances the game for both sides.
Legionnaired: Why would someone buy more expensive units in an RTS game? Short of a few exceptions, NO RTS unit directly pay for themselves back. Then why do people go beyond the first attack unit they can get? Of course, its to defeat the enemy more efficiently. By beating the enemy more easily, you gain more control over the map (unless you turtle, but thats why turtling is not a good tactic). Greater map control means more resources under your control. It is these res nodes that should be paying for your weapons and upgrades. Use strategy to improve your economy, not 1 or 2 crack shot marines. With RFK, you lower the importance of res nodes, and also pushing aside the strategic and RTS element of Natural Selection.
Easy. Marines should not get any RfK when they are near to a base. I don't know how exactly to define a base, but the general idea being, if they sit in their base, they don't get any RfK, they have to push out against the aliens if they want to earn some res if they're losing in the end game. Doesn't stop shotguns paying for themselves, but does stop turtling on one res node at the end of the game from giving marines a chance to win.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Same thing goes with aliens. Going Onos is a way to kill a lot of marines very, very quickly. However, taking focused shotgun/HMG fire will down that 100 res investment just as fast. Without RFK, a player can expect to go onos maybe once every few games, due to the huge allotment of rescources needed to evolve. RFK allows aliens to pay for their own upgrades, which in turn enourages them to evolve to higher lifeforms. Without it, 90% of the players on the field will be skulks, completely ineffective to take down elect'd nodes or marine groups, even in LA with a few basic weapon and armor upgrades.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I completely disagree with this. I usually play aliens, and due to my horrible computer (for gaming anyway) I usually go permagorge. I don't get much rfk, yet if the team is doing a decent job (not dominating, usually fighting for territory), if I decide to go onos then I am able to take out areas that have static defenses but no marines. This makes going onos pay for itself, since marines generally lose about 100 res or so in structures plus an rt, and it only takes one player. Without getting rfk, I am usually alive long enough that I could go onos again, assuming I don't want to go gorge and put up more structures.
i think that marines shouldn't get rfk, but alien should because if you joing in the middle of the game, marines already have those upgrades ready for them, but as for aliens, when they join, they start with nothing. They only have choice for upgrades but they don't have the res <!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif' /><!--endemo-->
RFK should be 1 res per kill, rt's need to be a more important source of income, this would help lengthen the game as well.
Thinking about gorges though, they can really use all the res they can get. Well, perma gorges anyway, but the only reason they exist are because of res**** teammates.
It was a horrible HORRIBLE idea, implemented in a horrible HORRIBLE way, and it's had horrible HORRIBLE effects on gameplay. This isn't Counter-Strike, Flayra, why did you make it into it? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why are we even discussing this? Flay said it will NEVER be gone so deal with it, sorry, but its true. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> men make mistakes, men question the thinking behind things. Are we to merely never discuss anything in ns? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I can nearly promise you RFK will never be gone, all the points on why its bad are either moot or irrelevant
Without the RFK the game needs to be totally rebalanced because marines would win every game with the current balance.. they elec all res nodes.. and without rfk when do you think aliens will get the first fade? or even second hive? By the time marines have already won? basically yes. Rines would have ha train before aliens will ever hit onos.. sounds good, does it? And yes gorges need more res from the rt's gained res.. skulks have rfk, gorges should have the res from rts so they can build. Like 50% res gained from rts would goto gorges first and then the rest 50% would be shared evenly to the team (including the gorges).. and for the res **** who would go gorge and then get onos.. Permanent ban for everyone who does that would be right solution. But yes to the topic, rfk is needed. Tho the rines rfk should be tweaked (the turtling end game issue).
How are the aliens supposed to get res to win? map control. Tweak some numbers if necessary. The game doesnt need to be TOTALLY rebalanced. NS was tweaked a bit to fit with RFK, all it would take is a bit more tweaking to remove it. Balance between the teams is proven possible with or without RFK. The question is, do we need it, and how does it make the game better?
<!--QuoteBegin-Umbraed Monkey+Feb 8 2004, 01:25 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Umbraed Monkey @ Feb 8 2004, 01:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> How are the aliens supposed to get res to win? map control. Tweak some numbers if necessary. The game doesnt need to be TOTALLY rebalanced. NS was tweaked a bit to fit with RFK, all it would take is a bit more tweaking to remove it. Balance between the teams is proven possible with or without RFK. The question is, do we need it, and how does it make the game better? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> exacly....but i would rather play ns....(not cs)
<!--QuoteBegin-Salvation.r2+Feb 7 2004, 11:29 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Salvation.r2 @ Feb 7 2004, 11:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Umbraed Monkey+Feb 8 2004, 01:25 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Umbraed Monkey @ Feb 8 2004, 01:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> How are the aliens supposed to get res to win? map control. Tweak some numbers if necessary. The game doesnt need to be TOTALLY rebalanced. NS was tweaked a bit to fit with RFK, all it would take is a bit more tweaking to remove it. Balance between the teams is proven possible with or without RFK. The question is, do we need it, and how does it make the game better? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> exacly....but i would rather play ns....(not cs) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Are you saying that rfk is good for that reason? Rfk makes the game <b>more</b> like CS, not less.
RFK has positive and negative, surely if the numbers were tweaked (less for marines perhaps) and a % of your RFK was donated to the local gorge squad it wouldn't be such a bad thing.
Comments
Basically, RfD means that you get res for killing enemy structures. I believe people who made the effort to destroy enemy strucutres should be rewarded somehow. Getting points is cool, but it doesn't really help the team, bonus res would. Thoughts?
You get an advantage from killing them anyway, it means you can take their RTs, etc. Its just weird to have a direct instant benefit as well. This is war! Not deathmatch!
Take out RFKs, thats what Combat is for.
Give gorges 1/2 the res that their nozzles produce until it has given the gorge 25. That way gorges can keep building stuff in large games and so on.
You get an advantage from killing them anyway, it means you can take their RTs, etc. Its just weird to have a direct instant benefit as well. This is war! Not deathmatch!
Take out RFKs, thats what Combat is for.
Give gorges 1/2 the res that their nozzles produce until it has given the gorge 25. That way gorges can keep building stuff in large games and so on. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
25? wouldn't 15 make more sense?
But there should really be some delay on those freaking electrified resource nodes. Like they should NOT appear at the very start of the game like they always do.
rfk helped alien a lot, but for marines...... they just drag the game way to long if they are being capped by aliens.
i think they should try and remove rfk in this version and let people to test it. I don't think that it will affect the marines early on in the game, but aliens... i don't know if they can get to onos that fast compare to know, so we'll have to test it out before we know anyhting
when i first read the post, i think it was outrageaous, but then again when i took time to think about it, it's worth trying to remove rfk and see any problem.
Doobie Dan: right, I forgot about that. Large games pre-RFK were extremely hard to win for aliens. RFK sorta eases this, but its still a problem. I guess thats score 1 for RFK...
Sm|o||o|th: yep, RFK encourages kills, and thus discourages the doing (cant think of a good word right now) of objectives. Why should mr fade waste his time taking out the electric res node when he can be out earning back his investment?
lagger: WHY is it supported in the veteran circles? I dont care who, I wanna know WHY.
Basinx: get outta my thread! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
With RFK, I can drop weapons and expect shotguns to pay for themselves after four kills. HMGs in 5, and the rare GL in 10 (Which with the way grenades are working out in 3.0b, it's quite feasable for a single marine to get this many with some skill.)
Before RFK, I wouldn't even think of dropping heavy weapons to light armor. Shotguns in the hands of a good player can be devestating, but really, they're not economically feasable. A small group of LMGers has roughly the same killing potental against skulks as a group of marines with a shotgun, simply because marines can block each other's pellets, and focused fire, even with LMGs, rips aliens to shreds.
Factoring RFK, squads of marines that are send out on expeditionary missions to cap resnodes, can be expected to pay for an investment in weapons, making them both effective in combat and economically feasable.
Same thing goes with aliens. Going Onos is a way to kill a lot of marines very, very quickly. However, taking focused shotgun/HMG fire will down that 100 res investment just as fast. Without RFK, a player can expect to go onos maybe once every few games, due to the huge allotment of rescources needed to evolve. RFK allows aliens to pay for their own upgrades, which in turn enourages them to evolve to higher lifeforms. Without it, 90% of the players on the field will be skulks, completely ineffective to take down elect'd nodes or marine groups, even in LA with a few basic weapon and armor upgrades.
RFK Allows players and teams to get off of the baseline tech and move into the higher level, more fun branches of the tech tree. Games where a player never evolves/ is equipped beyond their spawn configuration limits them to a single playstyle, defeating the purpose of even having multiple lifeforms and an advanced tech tree.
I was playing Orgions, and I and a few others were truely dominating the marines. They came to cargo, I told the team they were coming and they were there when I died after killing two and maiming a few. They then shredded the stragglers but were flanked and ultimately destroyed. I respawned and ran for cargo and dominated a few of them then the rest of the team come and own them. Pretty much at the 6 or 7 minute mark, I onos with the second hive up and a new player as well. We rape them for about ten minutes then rape the base. In the time, they get Heavies and what not. I die 3 times and onos again every time from RFK. Simpley put, RFK unbalances the game for both sides.
I completely disagree with this. I usually play aliens, and due to my horrible computer (for gaming anyway) I usually go permagorge. I don't get much rfk, yet if the team is doing a decent job (not dominating, usually fighting for territory), if I decide to go onos then I am able to take out areas that have static defenses but no marines. This makes going onos pay for itself, since marines generally lose about 100 res or so in structures plus an rt, and it only takes one player. Without getting rfk, I am usually alive long enough that I could go onos again, assuming I don't want to go gorge and put up more structures.
this would help lengthen the game as well.
Thinking about gorges though, they can really use all the res they can get.
Well, perma gorges anyway, but the only reason they exist are because of res**** teammates.
It was a horrible HORRIBLE idea, implemented in a horrible HORRIBLE way, and it's had horrible HORRIBLE effects on gameplay. This isn't Counter-Strike, Flayra, why did you make it into it? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why are we even discussing this? Flay said it will NEVER be gone so deal with it, sorry, but its true. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
men make mistakes, men question the thinking behind things. Are we to merely never discuss anything in ns? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can nearly promise you RFK will never be gone, all the points on why its bad are either moot or irrelevant
i hope it is removed, even for a short testing period in the 3.0Betas
i won't go into it anymore as i would be repeating many posts above me.
Can´t we have a Poll about it or somethng like that?
personaly i love long games, that are fought with even teams that go back for forwth for hours
but, this does stop it
i say off with its head...errr
i mean make it go away, see how it turns out
i remmber how cs was...errr i mean ns, good, long, fun, took skill, and ALOT of teamwork
now it takes some skill, some teamwork and you got it
....
i remmber the good old days
where ns was anti ns....ahhh
back in my day
By the time marines have already won? basically yes.
Rines would have ha train before aliens will ever hit onos.. sounds good, does it?
And yes gorges need more res from the rt's gained res.. skulks have rfk, gorges should have the res from rts so they can build. Like 50% res gained from rts would goto gorges first and then the rest 50% would be shared evenly to the team (including the gorges).. and for the res **** who would go gorge and then get onos.. Permanent ban for everyone who does that would be right solution.
But yes to the topic, rfk is needed. Tho the rines rfk should be tweaked (the turtling end game issue).
exacly....but i would rather play ns....(not cs)
exacly....but i would rather play ns....(not cs) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you saying that rfk is good for that reason? Rfk makes the game <b>more</b> like CS, not less.
but you can't reinvite the wheel 1000000 times and get new better things everytime i gess