So you mean that l10 marine vs l10 skulk should mean marine wins(which doesn't happen, ever, unless he has heavy or jet), and l10 onos should mean 100% sure alien win or something?
<!--QuoteBegin-MMZ>Torak+Mar 19 2004, 09:34 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MMZ>Torak @ Mar 19 2004, 09:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It's truely sad that this debate is turning into a **** contest. All this "e-thugness" is getting out of hand. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Seconded.
Oh, and wasn't this just trying to find some way to get the Skulks style of play into the late game, not beefing up the Skulk? I thought the original suggestion was a lifeform upgrade that basically gave the Skulk more speed and health. If you put a hive restricition on it, it actually could be pretty cool.
<!--QuoteBegin-Align+Mar 19 2004, 01:38 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Align @ Mar 19 2004, 01:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So you mean that l10 marine vs l10 skulk should mean marine wins(which doesn't happen, ever, unless he has heavy or jet), and l10 onos should mean 100% sure alien win or something? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> 99% of the time, a level 10 marine will either have JP or HA.
<!--QuoteBegin-demonx5584+Mar 19 2004, 08:54 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (demonx5584 @ Mar 19 2004, 08:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Align+Mar 19 2004, 01:38 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Align @ Mar 19 2004, 01:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So you mean that l10 marine vs l10 skulk should mean marine wins(which doesn't happen, ever, unless he has heavy or jet), and l10 onos should mean 100% sure alien win or something? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 99% of the time, a level 10 marine will either have JP or HA. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So?
<!--QuoteBegin-demonx5584+Mar 19 2004, 05:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (demonx5584 @ Mar 19 2004, 05:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm just saying, in most cases (not all), a skulk would lose. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And that is how it should be.
A single skulk, even with multiple upgrades should not be able to take and defeate a single Jetpack or Heavy Marine. It can happen, but its not normal.
And NightCrawler's comments of "rapage" on the Voogru servers...
I belive the original idea was to improve the effectiveness of late game skulks in Classic NS, not Combat. So Combat play shouldn't even be disscussed (frell, I think Combat should just be removed, it's created more problems than its solved)
The main issue here is that late game Marines fresh off the spawn pad have all their upgrades and a considerable amount of ammo. If the comm's smart/has the res, the equipment has already been dropped on the IPS, so even worse Marines essentially spawn as HA or JP with heavy weapons.
A freshly spawned skulk is just that. A skulk. No upgrades, nothing advanced, except for hive ablitities, provided they have more than one hive. You have to gestate upgrades, which can take up to half a minute. Then you have to gestate you lifeform, which can take considerably longer, depending on the lifeform. And thats all providing that you have the resources/chambers/hives to do it.
While I don't think their the spitwads the original poster implies they are, I do think they could use a slight buffing. Leap damage does need to be looked at, its just pitiful as it is. As a means of quick transport and closing distance to attack range it's excellent, but dealing something like 6 damage is just useless, it might as well not deal any damage at all. (yes I know it can deal more, but how often does that happen?) As an opposite suggestion to damage increase, why not just toss any damage altogether, and just halve the adrenaline cost?
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
Leap should be changed to deliver 40 pts of damage to the first touched structure or marine. That would allow leap+bite to take down unormored marines in one leap+bite combo (finally allowing skulks to have a chance to take down a jp in combat), as well as taking down lvl 1 and 2 armor marines with one bite less (leap + bite vs armor level would be 2 2 3 4, while it with bite only is 2 3 4 4). One more reason to hit armor lvl 3.
<!--QuoteBegin-NeoMatrix99+Mar 21 2004, 12:26 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NeoMatrix99 @ Mar 21 2004, 12:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> leap does 80 dmg per second in 3.0 as far as the balance.txt goes. But you have to be in contact a full second for it to work. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Exactly, and that is extremly hard.
Skulks are fine as they are, there worth 2 mesly res, and if you cant be effective with them, then morph into another life form, dont expect to rape.
For example, LMG marine no proto upgrade with lv 3 weapons 3 armor shooting a fade, fade rapes him, what now? want to raise the LMG power so he can rape the fade? come on this game is based on resources.
I DONT WANT THE BASIC SKULK TO BE BUFFED. THAT IS ONLY THE MORE FESIBLE OF MY OPTIONS.
what i really want is for the skulk style of play to remain throught the game, whether it be a new lifeform with wall crawling and speed. OR a evolustion that costs 20 res and improves the skulk base armor health speed attackpower n stuff.
My options to preserver the skulk play style.
1. make the default skulk become increseingly powerfull be it new upgrades for skulks only or stuff dramaticaly increseing with hives.
2. a new lifeform that has wall walk so that the skulk wall running style of play is preserved and effective late game.
3. an evolution that is only for the basic skulk that cancost anywere from 10-30 res that improves the skulks armor, health, speed, adrenilen n stuff.
I want the "SKULK STYLE" to remain in late game not specificaly the skulk. GET IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GOOD
I think end-game Skulks are fine as they are. I play the "Super Skulk" strategy alot; while it only take a few hits to kill me, I can usually at least take down a HA or JPer with me (if the JPer is really stupid and remains close to the ground).
<!--QuoteBegin-Crono5788+Mar 19 2004, 04:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Crono5788 @ Mar 19 2004, 04:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Oh, and wasn't this just trying to find some way to get the Skulks style of play into the late game, not beefing up the Skulk? I thought the original suggestion was a lifeform upgrade that basically gave the Skulk more speed and health. If you put a hive restricition on it, it actually could be pretty cool. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That would be pretty cool. Hows about the skulk creeps up in effectiveness automatically as more hives are built and spawns pre-enhanced (The bacterium has access to both more resources and more efficient gestation techniques as more hives are produced), so for example
(these values will then have the hive armour bonus applied _as well_, which will up the survivability of the skulk quite nicely)
this should also keep the skulk at the relative bottom of the tree, where it should be, but enhance the late game skulk without creating a solo-base-raping-HA-munching-leaping-biting-skulkmissile-o' Doom(+2)
The following is a comparison between the skulk and its nemesis, the LMG marine.
1.Marines move in groups. Unlike skulks, their mobility restricts their ability to roam across the map at will. Consequently, they tend to move in groups in order to make their trip useful. Moreover, marines gain clear advantages when they move out together. Therefore, your average marine is inclined to move out with a group of buddies. The skulks, due to their mobile nature, are dispersed across the map. They do not spawn together (no multiple IPs) nor do they stay in the hive and wait for the next skulk and move out together, simply because the skulk is individualistic in nature. Ambushing, scouting and rambo-eating can be done effectively by one man. The skulk is well-suited to responding to emergencies and scouting. He can utilize his mobility to get to a hotspot quickly. This is useful against the lone rt knifer or early in the game where intelligence is crucial. Nonetheless, these advantages become less and less apparent late game, and the marines too gain map control with phase gates as the game progresses.
2. Marines can concentrate firepower. The health of a skulk determines his effectiveness, since he has to get close and take damage in order to bite. The LMG marine can effect considerable damage from any range. Even a shotgun team can focus fire. THe larger the group, the more damage that can be directed at any enemy, wherever that enemy may be. Skulks, when they are advancing the hallway, are just targets. Only when they get into melee combat then can they deal actual damage. Even in melees, the marine can evade skulk bites quite easily. Dodging marine firepower over a hallway is impossbile. Therefore, thiis means that one, marines can deny certain areas to the aliens and two, skulks do not experience an exponential increase in efficency while in groups. For example, the marines have cargo and are sieging fusion. The skulks have no choice but to fling themselves against the besiegers and soon get shot to pieces. Even in groups they cannot do much. Why? Simply because their ability to deal damage is constrained, and the very nature of some map locations allow marines to exploit this limitation.
2. The LMG marine is a general-purpose soldier. There is nothing he cannot do effectively, so long as he is given approparite numbers and logistical support to complete his task. His LMG is actually a devastating weapon. Skulks counter it with mobility, while larger life forms counter it with truckloads of health and armour. Therfore, it can be used anyhwere at any point in time so long as it is upgraded. Skulks are NOT general purpose. As marines get better arms, skulks do not get better health. Their survivability, though boosted by celerity and leap, does not allow them to deal with heavy weaponry. (Unlike LMGs which can deal considerable damage to any lifeform before going down). Towards the end of the game, they become less and less useful. Consider: When the game comes down to HA vs Onos, the skulks feel pretty useless. They are little more than HMG fodder, flinging themselves endlessly at guns that tear them to shreds in milliseconds. On the other hand, the LA/LMG can contribute. He does not feel useless. And his prescence boosts the overall effectiveness of the squad by a considerable margin.
As you can see, the skulk is far less useful than the marine. And as most people stay skulk for a large proportion of the game, I think personal enjoyment, a crucial element of any game, has been compromised to make the game balanced. This needs to be addressed ASAP.
Comments
Seconded.
Oh, and wasn't this just trying to find some way to get the Skulks style of play into the late game, not beefing up the Skulk? I thought the original suggestion was a lifeform upgrade that basically gave the Skulk more speed and health. If you put a hive restricition on it, it actually could be pretty cool.
99% of the time, a level 10 marine will either have JP or HA.
99% of the time, a level 10 marine will either have JP or HA. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
So?
And that is how it should be.
A single skulk, even with multiple upgrades should not be able to take and defeate a single Jetpack or Heavy Marine. It can happen, but its not normal.
And NightCrawler's comments of "rapage" on the Voogru servers...
I don't think I've laughed harder in my life.
The main issue here is that late game Marines fresh off the spawn pad have all their upgrades and a considerable amount of ammo. If the comm's smart/has the res, the equipment has already been dropped on the IPS, so even worse Marines essentially spawn as HA or JP with heavy weapons.
A freshly spawned skulk is just that. A skulk. No upgrades, nothing advanced, except for hive ablitities, provided they have more than one hive. You have to gestate upgrades, which can take up to half a minute. Then you have to gestate you lifeform, which can take considerably longer, depending on the lifeform. And thats all providing that you have the resources/chambers/hives to do it.
While I don't think their the spitwads the original poster implies they are, I do think they could use a slight buffing. Leap damage does need to be looked at, its just pitiful as it is. As a means of quick transport and closing distance to attack range it's excellent, but dealing something like 6 damage is just useless, it might as well not deal any damage at all. (yes I know it can deal more, but how often does that happen?) As an opposite suggestion to damage increase, why not just toss any damage altogether, and just halve the adrenaline cost?
Exactly, and that is extremly hard.
For example, LMG marine no proto upgrade with lv 3 weapons 3 armor shooting a fade, fade rapes him, what now? want to raise the LMG power so he can rape the fade? come on this game is based on resources.
I DONT WANT THE BASIC SKULK TO BE BUFFED. THAT IS ONLY THE MORE FESIBLE OF MY OPTIONS.
what i really want is for the skulk style of play to remain throught the game, whether it be a new lifeform with wall crawling and speed. OR a evolustion that costs 20 res and improves the skulk base armor health speed attackpower n stuff.
My options to preserver the skulk play style.
1. make the default skulk become increseingly powerfull be it new upgrades for skulks only or stuff dramaticaly increseing with hives.
2. a new lifeform that has wall walk so that the skulk wall running style of play is preserved and effective late game.
3. an evolution that is only for the basic skulk that cancost anywere from 10-30 res that improves the skulks armor, health, speed, adrenilen n stuff.
I want the "SKULK STYLE" to remain in late game not specificaly the skulk.
GET IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GOOD
That would be pretty cool. Hows about the skulk creeps up in effectiveness automatically as more hives are built and spawns pre-enhanced (The bacterium has access to both more resources and more efficient gestation techniques as more hives are produced), so for example
1Hive: 70/10,+0%speed
2Hive: 80/15, +10% speed
3Hive: 90/20, +20% speed
(these values will then have the hive armour bonus applied _as well_, which will up the survivability of the skulk quite nicely)
this should also keep the skulk at the relative bottom of the tree, where it should be, but enhance the late game skulk without creating a solo-base-raping-HA-munching-leaping-biting-skulkmissile-o' Doom(+2)
1.Marines move in groups. Unlike skulks, their mobility restricts their ability to roam across the map at will. Consequently, they tend to move in groups in order to make their trip useful. Moreover, marines gain clear advantages when they move out together. Therefore, your average marine is inclined to move out with a group of buddies. The skulks, due to their mobile nature, are dispersed across the map. They do not spawn together (no multiple IPs) nor do they stay in the hive and wait for the next skulk and move out together, simply because the skulk is individualistic in nature. Ambushing, scouting and rambo-eating can be done effectively by one man. The skulk is well-suited to responding to emergencies and scouting. He can utilize his mobility to get to a hotspot quickly. This is useful against the lone rt knifer or early in the game where intelligence is crucial. Nonetheless, these advantages become less and less apparent late game, and the marines too gain map control with phase gates as the game progresses.
2. Marines can concentrate firepower. The health of a skulk determines his effectiveness, since he has to get close and take damage in order to bite. The LMG marine can effect considerable damage from any range. Even a shotgun team can focus fire. THe larger the group, the more damage that can be directed at any enemy, wherever that enemy may be. Skulks, when they are advancing the hallway, are just targets. Only when they get into melee combat then can they deal actual damage. Even in melees, the marine can evade skulk bites quite easily. Dodging marine firepower over a hallway is impossbile. Therefore, thiis means that one, marines can deny certain areas to the aliens and two, skulks do not experience an exponential increase in efficency while in groups. For example, the marines have cargo and are sieging fusion. The skulks have no choice but to fling themselves against the besiegers and soon get shot to pieces. Even in groups they cannot do much. Why? Simply because their ability to deal damage is constrained, and the very nature of some map locations allow marines to exploit this limitation.
2. The LMG marine is a general-purpose soldier. There is nothing he cannot do effectively, so long as he is given approparite numbers and logistical support to complete his task. His LMG is actually a devastating weapon. Skulks counter it with mobility, while larger life forms counter it with truckloads of health and armour. Therfore, it can be used anyhwere at any point in time so long as it is upgraded. Skulks are NOT general purpose. As marines get better arms, skulks do not get better health. Their survivability, though boosted by celerity and leap, does not allow them to deal with heavy weaponry. (Unlike LMGs which can deal considerable damage to any lifeform before going down). Towards the end of the game, they become less and less useful. Consider: When the game comes down to HA vs Onos, the skulks feel pretty useless. They are little more than HMG fodder, flinging themselves endlessly at guns that tear them to shreds in milliseconds. On the other hand, the LA/LMG can contribute. He does not feel useless. And his prescence boosts the overall effectiveness of the squad by a considerable margin.
As you can see, the skulk is far less useful than the marine. And as most people stay skulk for a large proportion of the game, I think personal enjoyment, a crucial element of any game, has been compromised to make the game balanced. This needs to be addressed ASAP.