<!--QuoteBegin-demonx5584+Apr 25 2004, 08:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (demonx5584 @ Apr 25 2004, 08:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The thing that bugs is me is aliens gain skill throughout time... WTH FOR?! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> To encourage the marines to move out straight away rather than camping marine start until the gl/jps start rolling out. It was easy with the range advantage for marines to gain a substancial lvl advantage over the aliens before. Especially if they held back and defended, limiting their losses and raking in the exp from lvl 1 skulks, who either had to make suicide rushes to try and get at least a tiny bit of exp for a lerk (to spore them out) or camp just outside the marine spawn until eventually one team got bored and moved out.
Take out xp over time! Now i can't even get lvl 1 armor and a shortgun before fades come and so many skulks take, its like wow gimme a good skulk in my team and me + focus both and we can kill a full marine team, cos of the new spawn system that sucks...in big games. 4 on 4 its reliable but who plays combat in 16 players games? Playtesters? Did they really? 3.0 beta 1 spawn was what i want now but tweaked a lot. Like a base 4 seconds plus 2 seconds every level. Max 20 seconds.
New combat focuses more on spawn camping and illing quickly (focus/sg/gl) rush. I played a few combat games last night where I did something I hardly ever do. I go focus as an upgrade, and as my first one. The marines didn't have any armor, and I was leap biting them to death because of it. The new spawn system allows players able to do that to own the entire marine team. And when they did get armor, it didn't matter. I lerked, spored them for a bit then bit their heads off and flew out in a hurry. (I'm not going to complain about the lerk no adrenaline thing really, I don't have the coordination or ability to do effective hit and glides aways. I mash the button down.) I thought the previous one was horrendus, but then I played this one. If this is how the spawn system will be from now on, then something has to be done to nerf focus in some way. Even with armor, you still die like a fly to focus everything, and fades are gods now...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->this should be stickied...if i do say so myself <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually this should me moved or deleted according to nemesis. Ah well never really expected him to stick to that anyway.
<!--QuoteBegin-Necro-+Apr 25 2004, 07:46 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necro- @ Apr 25 2004, 07:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->but please, please PLEASE give it time (a few hrs of gameplay) i mean, during the tests a LOT of people complained like you, but after a while they adapted, they learned the new system, and then they started winning.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> ?
What's to get used to? They gave lerks a huge buff, and for the marines... sounds, whoop-de-****, there's balance for ya. Oh right, they also took out wave-spawning, so that marines are easier to spawn camp than ever before, I forgot.
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>The new respawn system was the first thing I didn't like. Now I'm having an okay time with it, but only because I've adapted. I still don't think it's the best system.
Remember in CO, back when the mod first got released? Your spawn time was based on how many points you spent. I could have been a vanilla skulk, and had a respawn time of under THREE SECONDS... EVERY TIME... and as long as I was killing marines, I wouldn't bother upgrading to lose my spawn time. That's a system I liked, because it took you way longer if you were a level 10 Onos to respawn than if you were a vanilla Xeno-Skulk, even if you were also at level 10 with 7 unspent points.
What exactly was wrong with that, looking back? I can't remember any of the arguments against this system. Someone refresh me.
Then they came up with Wave Spawn. Now your respawn is based on how many teammates you have. This is okay too. In fact, what was the only thing people were complaining about? Spawn camping? Oh wah wah wah.
And now, you just spawn one at a time, at about one every five seconds.
This has a good effect and a bad effect.
The bad effect is that it takes the one complaint from wave-spawning, that of early-game spawncamping, and <b>MAGNIFIES IT ABOUT A BILLION TIMES</b>, so that all the whiners and sad-cases who can't play the game in the first place have even more to whine about. This doesn't matter because now maybe they'll go back to TFC and stufoo about it.
The good effect? We finally have people WATCHING OUT FOR THEMSELVES. No more reckless suicide rushing just to get a single bite in, or kill a single skulk just to have five of his buddies kill you, and the two guys behind you. I've seen people IN PUBS cover their buddy. That's something I used to never see. I guess when you're getting your face kicked every round when your buddy dies and can't cover YOU, you start taking an interest in the well-being of the guys you're with. The marines NEED to work together now. And, if the aliens aren't careful, one guy with good aim will set them all the way back to the hive room.
Second, the fact that aliens get free experience over time means that the marines HAVE to move out instead of camp, which is what they're the best at. Now that your average pubber can't just run to the best camping spot on the map and get half a dozen kills, because the aliens don't need to throw themselves at him to kill him, everyone on the marine team needs a buddy to help cover him as he moves toward the hive. Similarly, it breeds INTELLEGENCE on the alien team. You can bet I'm not going to be rushing anymore.
Give the new CO_ a week, then play NS_ and watch how much better everyone is. Finally, CO_ is more like the main game, NS_. Maybe people will actually PLAY NS_ now that it's about the same.
Also, if it involves people actually talking about things that matter, you can bet he'll want to move or delete it. Duh.</span>
<!--QuoteBegin-Swift Idiot+Apr 25 2004, 02:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swift Idiot @ Apr 25 2004, 02:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>Remember in CO, back when the mod first got released? Your spawn time was based on how many points you spent. I could have been a vanilla skulk, and had a respawn time of under THREE SECONDS... EVERY TIME... and as long as I was killing marines, I wouldn't bother upgrading to lose my spawn time. That's a system I liked, because it took you way longer if you were a level 10 Onos to respawn than if you were a vanilla Xeno-Skulk, even if you were also at level 10 with 7 unspent points.
What exactly was wrong with that, looking back? I can't remember any of the arguments against this system. Someone refresh me.</span> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The huge amount of time it took to spawn at level 10. Something around 45 seconds.
I checked my server listing yesterday (I can only play around 3 am, otherwise college firewall = 400+ ping), there were 4 (Yes, <b>4</b>) NS servers. <b>4!</b> So, combat that everyone plays where the marines lose all the time is helping people prepare for the NS games that don't exist?
It's a solid argument if I ever saw one.
Resources overtime is akin to giving the aliens res for RTs they don't have. Even if it's designed not to let the marines camp, they'll camp more because the aliens are going to have more upgrades, like cloaking or celerity or focus (more the cloaking, which you can get after 30 seconds or so of waiting with your free res gain) which is basically death to them when they leave. Lerk no flight cost is good for NS, but in combat it is easily exploited by getting adrenaline and then spore spamming everything.
Solution to the marine spawn camping: implement the beacon. When <10% of the team is alive, activate a beacon. It's quick, it's simple, it prevents spawn camping. Not sure how you could remedy alien spawn camping, but I haven't really seen much of it in beta 4. Maybe give the aliens some hive invulnerability for 2 seconds or something (which could be nice in NS too, but you don't want to unbalance it).
I personally found the gameplay very enjoyable! It's my first time playing, and although the concept was hard to pick up at first, (I was aliens on the first run) it was extremely fun. My friend and I took turns playing for about 4 hours this morning. We love to be the Marines and I had fun fighting along side Syrus! He was a good commander...
<!--QuoteBegin-Recoup+Apr 25 2004, 07:22 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Recoup @ Apr 25 2004, 07:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I personally found the gameplay very enjoyable! It's my first time playing, and although the concept was hard to pick up at first, (I was aliens on the first run) it was extremely fun. My friend and I took turns playing for about 4 hours this morning. We love to be the Marines and I had fun fighting along side Syrus! He was a good commander...
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Based on your commander comment, it sounds like you're talking about classic NS and not combat (classic having far fewer qualms with people than beta 4 classic). Although, it is nice to see that new people are enjoying the good ol' NS.
No, it was the Beta. I was strictly playing with the beta because the 2.0 messed up somehow. I played both the matches where you are in groups and command people, and also the ones where you upgrade. Tis' fun.
I do not like combat . .. period I didn' tcare for it before and I don't care for it now
I do not like it here or there, I do not like it anywhere I do not like it with a fox, I do not like it in a box I do not like it on a train, I do not like it in the rain I do not like stupid combat . . .yeah it sucks
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I checked my server listing yesterday (I can only play around 3 am, otherwise college firewall = 400+ ping), there were 4 (Yes, 4) NS servers. 4! So, combat that everyone plays where the marines lose all the time is helping people prepare for the NS games that don't exist?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
thanks for bringing this up. i was worried pre 2.1 about combat taking over ns_ and it seems like this has actually happened. this isn't so much a matter of preference as it is newbies just too lazy to learn ns_. ns_ has always been the heart and soul of the game, but it just isn't as attractive to newbies. to make matters worse, co_ games are stupidly unbalanced, so the newbies mentioned above get to experience a shallow, unbalanced, difficult and a game that is ultimately just not as much as fun as ns_ is. ns_ games are usually even more shallow and pathetic, because new commanders haven't learned enough about hte game not to place turrets every. freaking. where. in 2.0, the TF in base died out after a few weeks, but it's just not happening with 3.0. Why? because people play combat.
in conclusion, combat is the worst thing to happen to the ns community, ever.
I still dont get why people hate the combat. Yes, newbies are extremely lazy, but when I pick up a game that has potential and it's difficult, I'm going to give it a whirl, and keep going until I get the hang of it! Which I did, and I found it very good. The Beta Combat is only bad to the person who just doesnt want to try and live it out or find ways to overcome bad things.
Depends on the skill of the person. For me, either I worked with an entirely skilled team or it was just luck, but we won several rounds except whenever the aliens managed to kill off out members and swarmed us in one round. But we took em down, thanks to good leadership and team work!!! <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Combat is the best thing to ever happen to Natural Selection. Face the reality that people coming from a deathmatch backround want a deathmatch feel to a new game. They don't want to be "bottom of the barrel." They want a game that's fun, not too stressful, and relies more on the individual. Now, combat blends ns classic with good 'ole deathmatch and creates something that's fun to get on and play. The games aren't excessively long, players feel more in control of the game, and they adapt quicker to the deathmatch environment which they are familiar with. Even in a long combat game, it never gets boring, because combat is based on regular NS, and so it feels like an epic battle.
I started playing NS in 1.03, and have played every version since. I've gotta say, what has made me stick with this version is combat mode. Classic NS gets very boring very quickly, particularly when the commander isn't all that great.
HEY ELITIST CLASSIC KIDS, STOP BASHING COMBAT!!!
Now, onto my small rant about the new combat. Plain and simple: it sucks. Go back to old respawn, get rid of super lerk, and bring back the old HMG noise. I kind of dig the new shotty noise. It's like the world is ending everytime you pull the trigger <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->.
<!--QuoteBegin-MrMojo+Apr 25 2004, 02:50 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrMojo @ Apr 25 2004, 02:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Necro-+Apr 25 2004, 08:38 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necro- @ Apr 25 2004, 08:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-MrMojo+Apr 25 2004, 04:21 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrMojo @ Apr 25 2004, 04:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> That's the point of the beta, necro. To post opinions. If someone doesn't like combat when they first play it, they won't adapt, they'll quit NS or simply won't play combat ( not that there's anything wrong with that <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo--> ). So, yes, combat should be made newbiew friendly, considering it's supposed to be practise for NS. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> WRONG!
NO BIG changes have EVER got good feedback right away. can't remember what it was in beta 2 but ppl hated it then they adapted. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> In order for NS to have more players, a first impression should be fun. It shouldn't be being spawn camped and then being told to adapt. That doesn't make a game grow. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Word.
How can a newbie adapt to the game if he's killed every 3 secounds? It's not like Combat is no fun (if you're alien it is ;D) but its really just not very newb friendly at the moment.
You could argue that by giving aliens EXP over time it prevents marine camping. From what I have seen it doesn't prevent marine camping, it makes marine camping a problem. Before it was marines that got into groups and camped an area, yes they usually walked all over people who ran out charging straight at them. When it comes to people that took a different route or outsmarted the marines they had no problems.
Now, the marines have no CHOICE but to rush out rambo style. If you don't rush then the aliens get stronger significantly faster and they overpower the marines because of that. Eventually it turns into a spawn camp fest. All an alien (or their whole team) has to do is hide at their hive for the whole game and wait for the marines to attempt to rush it. If the marines don't come then the aliens level up and eventually it's fades and lerks vs. level 3 marines, if the marines do come then the aliens swarm them and due to the low respawn rate it reverts to a spawn camp fest again.
From my experience the marines CAN get into the alien hive and overpower them on their own ground if they can hit stuff in front of them, provided the team works together. My problem is that just one, two or even three marines camping in the spawn humping the armory because they are new can completely ruin it. If the marines have a couple of people that go afk then it has the same result. The fact that the actions of a few can destroy any chance of winning for the ENTIRE team is a move in the wrong direction.
Now you can go on to say that people who are "good" have no problems in this area (provided every marine player knows what they are doing). Well, I ask you, why should we not consider the people who just downloaded NS and jumped in a game to try it out? The fact is, with the new patch, if you are new to NS and you start as marine you will probably be slaughtered. What impression does this put on new players that try combat?
Every change should be designed to make the game better for every skill level of player, good, bad, new, it doesn't matter. I just don't see that with some of these changes, at all. In fact, I know several people that have just begun to try combat NS that have become disgusted. Honestly, I question how many of them will simply quit. That it CAN be done should never enter into the argument, if just because a group of players are new it means that they will be walked over then something is very wrong.
As for a fix to this, well, if the spawn mechanics revert back to their previous state then most of these problems will go away. Ideally the marines best bet would be to push out toward the hive, they just won't have to be thinking in the back of their head that if they all die then the game is done. New players won't be overwhelmed and the actions of one player won't dictate the results of each game so severely. The only resulting problem would be game length, which if you really think about even the longer games never felt too long prior to the patch (at least I didn't think so).
Some of you guys gotta really gotta stop this eliteist crap. Why on earth would you want combat to fail as a game? you think just because you don't like it no one else deserves to enjoy it? I love Classic: NS, I play it far more than combat, but I'm not so petty that I would wish combat to fail, and I'm not so arrogant that I would refuse to play it because I am not able to use all the stratigic skills I use regularly in NS. If you just don't find it fun, fine, don't play it, no one is forcing you, and I still don't want/need to hear about it. We have to gameplay modes, either help IMPROVE the one you don't like, or shut up; lots of people do like it and its not going away.
Some of you guys should stop defending combat for once and start looking at how to balance the damn thing. Combat CAN be made fun if people actually started on changing the way combat works instead of hide-fixing bugs like shotty bugs. Also mappers, is it that hard to put player entities somewhere else in the map beside the cramped cc/hive rooms? I know you like your eye killing checkers readyroom but comon... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
We're not really defending combat in a "it's perfectly balanced" way, but rather in a "will you stop going 'lollerz i r kewl n co sux' and at least keep to the game you like without calling every player of another game nubs" way. I think most combat players agree on it being totally unbalanced. I suggested a new spawn system in a topic around here somewhere, how about that?
<!--QuoteBegin-LeetLlama+Apr 25 2004, 02:16 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (LeetLlama @ Apr 25 2004, 02:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The problem is that most people who play CO DO think combat is about being a rambo.
With aliens, all you have to do is be around each other to get some good team work going.
For marines, you have to buy a wielder to be a good team player. Thats way too much effort for most leet CO players. The game system is fine, it's just the way people play that is making CO suck. Well, that and the lurks =P <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> ...
Ya, welds his teamate with 10 Skulks with focus running at him.... It is Combat we are talking about yes?
<!--QuoteBegin-Necro-+Apr 25 2004, 02:20 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necro- @ Apr 25 2004, 02:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Align+Apr 25 2004, 10:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Align @ Apr 25 2004, 10:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I suppose this is what we get for rushing flayra to "OMG RELEASE ALREADY"... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> exactly.
a lot of you go "omg release" then when he does "omg this sucks cause theres this and this bug or this and this feature isn't in."
as for the lerks, the lerks are fine, but the rubber lerk is an exploit that unfortunately wasn't spotted
/me glares at the vets. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I spotted it, I said it would be exploited, other people did, no one listened though.
I'm glad co sucks, I always like ns more and now that everyone hates co more people will want to play co maps <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The only problem I've found with combat in beta 4 is that servers are still having the high player cap that seemed tolerable in beta 3. I've played several VERY good games of combat when there were only 8-10 players on the server. I'd say having a 12 man cap on the server would be the max if you want a decent game of combat. Too many servers are so intent on having the maximum number of people on one server as possible and it generally throws balance out the window as combat specifically simply wasn't made for such big games. Its arguable that even most classic maps aren't even balanced for those really big games. I generally never visit a server that has a maxplayers count higher than 16 ... and that's pushing it. I've rarely seen a competitive/clan match where the player count wasn't either 5v5 or 6v6. I also rely on the admin to have set up the server in such a way so that if there are few people on then a combat map is played and if it is full or close to full a classic map is played. Simple as that.
Don't expect to see ANY semblance of balance if you're still hung on the notion of playing massively large games (player wise). The balance simply wasn't designed for that kind of play.
Now once you start playing on the low population servers you'll find that the respawn times are more than bearable... and if you're all dead at a one man trickle the game is already over anyway. I've only seen one game in such an environment that lasted more than 5 minutes. It was action packed almost every second and only the very best on each team ever reached lvl 10. Frankly, that's how I always imagined combat to be like in the first place. On top of this, if you expect combat the have the level of enjoyability in its gameplay over that of classic then you've got another thing coming. Classic will and always will be the primary focus of development... combat is simply a way to pass the time until there are enough people to play a classic game.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If someone doesn't like combat when they first play it, they won't adapt, they'll quit NS or simply won't play combat ( not that there's anything wrong with that ). So, yes, combat should be made newbiew friendly, considering it's supposed to be practise for NS. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The thing is that if regulars who have been playing this for a long time adapt to new circumstances(as they should/will) then new commers evenly distributed between the teams should not make huge difference to the outcome as long as they make up a small proportion of players and they should learn from observation what the regulars have learned through playing much more than they have. I think combat will be newbie friendly when the regular players have adapted, that is if combat isn't truly unbalanced...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->plus the new respawn system is pretty flawed. Ask yourself this: What's more powerful: a Single n-level marine or a Single n-level alien (with a hive healing him!) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well yes, but while your at it ask yourself this: what is more powerfull
a bunch of n-level marines or a bunch of n-level aliens.
Marines should rush togheter, and that's why most of the time that I've seen marines working togheter well I've seen marine wins and when they don't, alien victory by default in CO.
Comments
To encourage the marines to move out straight away rather than camping marine start until the gl/jps start rolling out.
It was easy with the range advantage for marines to gain a substancial lvl advantage over the aliens before. Especially if they held back and defended, limiting their losses and raking in the exp from lvl 1 skulks, who either had to make suicide rushes to try and get at least a tiny bit of exp for a lerk (to spore them out) or camp just outside the marine spawn until eventually one team got bored and moved out.
Now i can't even get lvl 1 armor and a shortgun before fades come and so many skulks take, its like wow gimme a good skulk in my team and me + focus both and we can kill a full marine team, cos of the new spawn system that sucks...in big games.
4 on 4 its reliable but who plays combat in 16 players games? Playtesters? Did they really?
3.0 beta 1 spawn was what i want now but tweaked a lot.
Like a base 4 seconds plus 2 seconds every level. Max 20 seconds.
Actually this should me moved or deleted according to nemesis. Ah well never really expected him to stick to that anyway.
?
What's to get used to? They gave lerks a huge buff, and for the marines... sounds, whoop-de-****, there's balance for ya. Oh right, they also took out wave-spawning, so that marines are easier to spawn camp than ever before, I forgot.
Remember in CO, back when the mod first got released? Your spawn time was based on how many points you spent. I could have been a vanilla skulk, and had a respawn time of under THREE SECONDS... EVERY TIME... and as long as I was killing marines, I wouldn't bother upgrading to lose my spawn time. That's a system I liked, because it took you way longer if you were a level 10 Onos to respawn than if you were a vanilla Xeno-Skulk, even if you were also at level 10 with 7 unspent points.
What exactly was wrong with that, looking back? I can't remember any of the arguments against this system. Someone refresh me.
Then they came up with Wave Spawn. Now your respawn is based on how many teammates you have. This is okay too. In fact, what was the only thing people were complaining about? Spawn camping? Oh wah wah wah.
And now, you just spawn one at a time, at about one every five seconds.
This has a good effect and a bad effect.
The bad effect is that it takes the one complaint from wave-spawning, that of early-game spawncamping, and <b>MAGNIFIES IT ABOUT A BILLION TIMES</b>, so that all the whiners and sad-cases who can't play the game in the first place have even more to whine about. This doesn't matter because now maybe they'll go back to TFC and stufoo about it.
The good effect? We finally have people WATCHING OUT FOR THEMSELVES. No more reckless suicide rushing just to get a single bite in, or kill a single skulk just to have five of his buddies kill you, and the two guys behind you. I've seen people IN PUBS cover their buddy. That's something I used to never see. I guess when you're getting your face kicked every round when your buddy dies and can't cover YOU, you start taking an interest in the well-being of the guys you're with. The marines NEED to work together now. And, if the aliens aren't careful, one guy with good aim will set them all the way back to the hive room.
Second, the fact that aliens get free experience over time means that the marines HAVE to move out instead of camp, which is what they're the best at. Now that your average pubber can't just run to the best camping spot on the map and get half a dozen kills, because the aliens don't need to throw themselves at him to kill him, everyone on the marine team needs a buddy to help cover him as he moves toward the hive. Similarly, it breeds INTELLEGENCE on the alien team. You can bet I'm not going to be rushing anymore.
Give the new CO_ a week, then play NS_ and watch how much better everyone is. Finally, CO_ is more like the main game, NS_. Maybe people will actually PLAY NS_ now that it's about the same.
Also, if it involves people actually talking about things that matter, you can bet he'll want to move or delete it. Duh.</span>
What exactly was wrong with that, looking back? I can't remember any of the arguments against this system. Someone refresh me.</span> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The huge amount of time it took to spawn at level 10. Something around 45 seconds.
It's a solid argument if I ever saw one.
Resources overtime is akin to giving the aliens res for RTs they don't have. Even if it's designed not to let the marines camp, they'll camp more because the aliens are going to have more upgrades, like cloaking or celerity or focus (more the cloaking, which you can get after 30 seconds or so of waiting with your free res gain) which is basically death to them when they leave. Lerk no flight cost is good for NS, but in combat it is easily exploited by getting adrenaline and then spore spamming everything.
Solution to the marine spawn camping: implement the beacon. When <10% of the team is alive, activate a beacon. It's quick, it's simple, it prevents spawn camping. Not sure how you could remedy alien spawn camping, but I haven't really seen much of it in beta 4. Maybe give the aliens some hive invulnerability for 2 seconds or something (which could be nice in NS too, but you don't want to unbalance it).
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Based on your commander comment, it sounds like you're talking about classic NS and not combat (classic having far fewer qualms with people than beta 4 classic). Although, it is nice to see that new people are enjoying the good ol' NS.
I do not like it here or there, I do not like it anywhere
I do not like it with a fox, I do not like it in a box
I do not like it on a train, I do not like it in the rain
I do not like stupid combat . . .yeah it sucks
but NS is awesome . . . yeah
thanks for bringing this up. i was worried pre 2.1 about combat taking over ns_ and it seems like this has actually happened. this isn't so much a matter of preference as it is newbies just too lazy to learn ns_. ns_ has always been the heart and soul of the game, but it just isn't as attractive to newbies. to make matters worse, co_ games are stupidly unbalanced, so the newbies mentioned above get to experience a shallow, unbalanced, difficult and a game that is ultimately just not as much as fun as ns_ is. ns_ games are usually even more shallow and pathetic, because new commanders haven't learned enough about hte game not to place turrets every. freaking. where. in 2.0, the TF in base died out after a few weeks, but it's just not happening with 3.0. Why? because people play combat.
in conclusion, combat is the worst thing to happen to the ns community, ever.
Combat is the best thing to ever happen to Natural Selection. Face the reality that people coming from a deathmatch backround want a deathmatch feel to a new game. They don't want to be "bottom of the barrel." They want a game that's fun, not too stressful, and relies more on the individual. Now, combat blends ns classic with good 'ole deathmatch and creates something that's fun to get on and play. The games aren't excessively long, players feel more in control of the game, and they adapt quicker to the deathmatch environment which they are familiar with. Even in a long combat game, it never gets boring, because combat is based on regular NS, and so it feels like an epic battle.
I started playing NS in 1.03, and have played every version since. I've gotta say, what has made me stick with this version is combat mode. Classic NS gets very boring very quickly, particularly when the commander isn't all that great.
HEY ELITIST CLASSIC KIDS, STOP BASHING COMBAT!!!
Now, onto my small rant about the new combat. Plain and simple: it sucks. Go back to old respawn, get rid of super lerk, and bring back the old HMG noise. I kind of dig the new shotty noise. It's like the world is ending everytime you pull the trigger <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->.
WRONG!
NO BIG changes have EVER got good feedback right away. can't remember what it was in beta 2 but ppl hated it then they adapted. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In order for NS to have more players, a first impression should be fun. It shouldn't be being spawn camped and then being told to adapt. That doesn't make a game grow. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Word.
How can a newbie adapt to the game if he's killed every 3 secounds? It's not like Combat is no fun (if you're alien it is ;D) but its really just not very newb friendly at the moment.
You could argue that by giving aliens EXP over time it prevents marine camping. From what I have seen it doesn't prevent marine camping, it makes marine camping a problem. Before it was marines that got into groups and camped an area, yes they usually walked all over people who ran out charging straight at them. When it comes to people that took a different route or outsmarted the marines they had no problems.
Now, the marines have no CHOICE but to rush out rambo style. If you don't rush then the aliens get stronger significantly faster and they overpower the marines because of that. Eventually it turns into a spawn camp fest. All an alien (or their whole team) has to do is hide at their hive for the whole game and wait for the marines to attempt to rush it. If the marines don't come then the aliens level up and eventually it's fades and lerks vs. level 3 marines, if the marines do come then the aliens swarm them and due to the low respawn rate it reverts to a spawn camp fest again.
From my experience the marines CAN get into the alien hive and overpower them on their own ground if they can hit stuff in front of them, provided the team works together. My problem is that just one, two or even three marines camping in the spawn humping the armory because they are new can completely ruin it. If the marines have a couple of people that go afk then it has the same result. The fact that the actions of a few can destroy any chance of winning for the ENTIRE team is a move in the wrong direction.
Now you can go on to say that people who are "good" have no problems in this area (provided every marine player knows what they are doing). Well, I ask you, why should we not consider the people who just downloaded NS and jumped in a game to try it out? The fact is, with the new patch, if you are new to NS and you start as marine you will probably be slaughtered. What impression does this put on new players that try combat?
Every change should be designed to make the game better for every skill level of player, good, bad, new, it doesn't matter. I just don't see that with some of these changes, at all. In fact, I know several people that have just begun to try combat NS that have become disgusted. Honestly, I question how many of them will simply quit. That it CAN be done should never enter into the argument, if just because a group of players are new it means that they will be walked over then something is very wrong.
As for a fix to this, well, if the spawn mechanics revert back to their previous state then most of these problems will go away. Ideally the marines best bet would be to push out toward the hive, they just won't have to be thinking in the back of their head that if they all die then the game is done. New players won't be overwhelmed and the actions of one player won't dictate the results of each game so severely. The only resulting problem would be game length, which if you really think about even the longer games never felt too long prior to the patch (at least I didn't think so).
I think most combat players agree on it being totally unbalanced. I suggested a new spawn system in a topic around here somewhere, how about that?
With aliens, all you have to do is be around each other to get some good team work going.
For marines, you have to buy a wielder to be a good team player. Thats way too much effort for most leet CO players. The game system is fine, it's just the way people play that is making CO suck. Well, that and the lurks =P <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
...
Ya, welds his teamate with 10 Skulks with focus running at him.... It is Combat we are talking about yes?
exactly.
a lot of you go "omg release" then when he does "omg this sucks cause theres this and this bug or this and this feature isn't in."
as for the lerks, the lerks are fine, but the rubber lerk is an exploit that unfortunately wasn't spotted
/me glares at the vets. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I spotted it, I said it would be exploited, other people did, no one listened though.
Don't expect to see ANY semblance of balance if you're still hung on the notion of playing massively large games (player wise). The balance simply wasn't designed for that kind of play.
Now once you start playing on the low population servers you'll find that the respawn times are more than bearable... and if you're all dead at a one man trickle the game is already over anyway. I've only seen one game in such an environment that lasted more than 5 minutes. It was action packed almost every second and only the very best on each team ever reached lvl 10. Frankly, that's how I always imagined combat to be like in the first place. On top of this, if you expect combat the have the level of enjoyability in its gameplay over that of classic then you've got another thing coming. Classic will and always will be the primary focus of development... combat is simply a way to pass the time until there are enough people to play a classic game.
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The thing is that if regulars who have been playing this for a long time adapt to new circumstances(as they should/will) then new commers evenly distributed between the teams should not make huge difference to the outcome as long as they make up a small proportion of players and they should learn from observation what the regulars have learned through playing much more than they have. I think combat will be newbie friendly when the regular players have adapted, that is if combat isn't truly unbalanced...
a Single n-level marine
or
a Single n-level alien (with a hive healing him!)
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Well yes, but while your at it ask yourself this: what is more powerfull
a bunch of n-level marines
or a bunch of n-level aliens.
Marines should rush togheter, and that's why most of the time that I've seen marines working togheter well I've seen marine wins and when they don't, alien victory by default in CO.