if you ask me, i never exactly liked combat. to me, ns it the mix, rts and fps, and without the fps part, ns seems a lot worse to me, i didnt get a chance to do a lot of B4 yet, so i cannot give a honest current opinion, but to me, co was always "new cs" to me
but still, i see the point of this thread, ppl always posting tonnes of topics saying "this blows goat" does get annoying, very annoying.
I just wish there was such thing as teamwork nowadays... while there is SOME, it is rather hard to find someone to follow orders with, like on counter strike, does anyone EVER take the point when you say "You take the point"? How about "Cover me". No, they sit there like dumbshits and try and pick off their own targets. Even TFC has no team work anymore. What does the "T" stand for? Although most of the time it IS hard to get someone to work with you, there are still those people out there who KNOW how to co-interact with others in order for a more sucessful outcome. That is how I worked with Syrus, I can admire the guy because he is good at what he did and he helped me out when I needed him to. He was also knowledgeable in tactics and that made him a good leader. What is sad about life is there will always be a majority of n00bs then there will hard-filed veterans who can headshot everything in sight. However, in my case, I can ALWAYS enjoy a game of NS, whether we are loosing horribly or winning constantly.
<!--QuoteBegin-Recoup+Apr 26 2004, 05:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Recoup @ Apr 26 2004, 05:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->However, in my case, I can ALWAYS enjoy a game of NS, whether we are loosing horribly or winning constantly.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The single best quote I've seen in this thread.
Classic is and always will be the best mode of Natural Selection, simply because it was the first time RTS and FPS games had ever been mixed. The originality can never be taken away.
However, Combat has virtues that make it a vital part of what NS is now. The gameplay is so different between the two, it would be hard for me to go back to playing Classic every game. You can do things in combat you'd never try (if you actually wanted to win) in classic. Suicide rushes, xeno bombings, just plain dodging around 5 guys with shotties are adrenaline rushes! These tactics may lose the match, but sometimes I just don't care. It's a game people; have fun. I try my hardest to win for the team in Classic, I try my hardest to have a good time in Combat. It's not like combat is <u>permanently</u> spoiling anyone for classic; any bad habits can be unlearned.
I also think it all depends on the person who plays it. Nit-pickers will have a funfest finding problems with it, but for someone who just wants to try and enjoy themselves it will be completely different. If people could set aside looking for problems and try and have fun then it's always an entertaining experience.
I played Combat as Aliens other night, wow, how much easier it is to play aliens, so much easier, I was very surprised at how fast the xp goes up as well... As an alien, I thought .. I dont have to kill anything really, all I have to do is sit and get xp.
As well, as an alien, you dont have to worry bout wastin upgrades on Scan, Welder, Resupply, just run back to hive and heal.
So unbalanced now its stupid, I am a well skilled marine that plays as a team player, as I get upgrades to help the side, scan, etc etc and still I see Marines losing 90%+ of the time.
I played on Gamearena servers last night, many good players on both sides, and found that Aliens were winning 9/10 games, this was with skilled players on both sides.
I have had friends asking me what I did on my break from Uni, Played NS Combat most the time, but said to them dont bother with it, as its gone down hill, and a waste of time. ( Unless you play Aliens, as this is for people with no Skill.)
I just played Beta 4 for about 10 hours straight (yes, i'm a loser) and about 75% of the victories belong to the aliens.
I do not know what contributes to this statistic, but it seems that the instant marines start camping thier base, it's insta-lose....no doubt about it. Marines have to be extremely agressive to get anywhere, in combat or otherwise.
Although I have agreed the combat is still good, they have a point. Camp-fests are not cool, and campers have a special place reserved for them in hell. We have to work as a team and be offensive. Once we got onto that track of assault, there was no loosing. However, once we just kind of stopped at one point, and dont progress, the aliens just start getting bigger and bigger. I have to admit, sitting there and getting res is a little low, but we might be able to solve this by raising the time it takes to get res for the aliens.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How about everyone understand combat isn't about 2 hour killathons, its supposed to be a bad thing when you die. I love the new spawn system. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would not say "I love the new spawn system" but I have to agree it works. Those boring marines-camp-in-base-and-spam-all-the-time games are history. Most players adapt to the new system and don't move out alone anymore. With even and equally skilled teams games still take around 10-20 minutes. Only uneven or team stacking games take 1-5 minutes.
But there is a serious problem. In early game marines have a good chance to win the game <b>if</b> they don't camp their base <b>or</b> camp very good (means aliens don't get any kills before marines get eg. GL). In late game marines can't win. Period. It needs a team of alien newbies, uneven teams (eg. 10vs7) or stacking in favour of marines to have a real chance of winning. By the time most aliens reach level 6-7 marines will get owned and sieged in their base (speaking about decent aliens, not newbies) because a single fade or onos can take out two or three marines. Then think about fades blinking in and slashing marines, lerks sporing, xeno skulks bombing and oni rushing the marine spawn. Game over. In all the games I played I haven't seen marines win a single high level game against decent aliens (I have seen things like 9 super skulks and 1 fade getting owned by marines but that's... omg...).
Conclussion: Aliens are overpowered in late game because of evolution power and one player spawn.
Solution: Change upgrade system, more marine upgrade points (to get more in line with classic) or change spawn system. Maybe someone else has better suggestions <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Let's say marines move out. There's less and less of them as they're getting closer to the hive. By that time a lot of aliens have level 2, and most likely focus. The rest of marines get slaughtered, and if aliens rush the MS, they have a very high chance of ending it right there.
It's not something that can be sold by "don't camp" or "aim lolz".
Tried Aliens out again tonight, ima so happy, its so easy playing Aliens, thank you NS team, we Aliens are the best now <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> win, win, win.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->... the lack of team work...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
of course people don't implement team work in publics...
whats their incentive?
help out a bunch of people they don't know / never will / don't care about? <-- what a good incentive that is.
99% of mod development is aimed towards Clan play. Whether that is right or wrong is a different story - if you want single play, go play quake / ut DM.
I'm all for team play - I love NS games where you get a good team that works together - it's refreshing. but the truth is you can moan all you want about the lack of team play but that's just how it is. so many games put in systems and ideas to enforce / encourage team play, but if you don't want to do it, there is nothing forcing you. (Except **** admins like me who kick solo players)
if you want constant team work, go and sit in the pickup channels, the gather channels, join a VERY active clan etc - there is team work, there is co-ordination etc.
any one tried playing combat in a clan-based game? it's awesome. perhaps the most balanced game ever - more balanced than Ns in my opinion.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->...i was worried that combat would take over NS and it seems that it has...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have a question, and then an answer to your question;
firstly, why do people who clearly HATE combat (and your entitled to think of it as you please) come into a combat thread and slate combat? whats the point? if you don't like combat, then just don't play it ,and don't worry your self over it.
combat has taken over classic in some respects because it is some thing new and refreshing. I've played classic since 1.03 (not a huge amount of time i know, but played it quite intensely) - i LOVED v1.04 ... every aspect of it except for the 2 hive lock down standoff. i didn't like ns2. it was too similar with small differences - every thing i was used to do doing didn't work. so i stopped. i took a 4 month break, and returned around the release of v3 and combat. classic hadn't changed significantly - it was just a slightly different style - it wasn't terribly appealing. Combat however, was new. it was a fresh idea, that was quick and exciting to play. games averaged 10 minutes, however you got the occasional longer game, and the occasional shorter game as expected - i loved them all.
that is why combat has possibly taken over classic - it's some thing new and fresh. of course it doens't have the depth that classic has, or the team play aspects, the tactics, development, etc etc etc, but thats not why people play it. you play a strategy game if you want that. you want a quick short-lived game, it's combat.
I've been playing combat quite a bit since b4, and I have to say that I don't care for the new spawn times. Why? It has nothing to do, as some have implied, with marines who can't aim. At some point in a combat game, inevitably, your team will suffer a large loss. Whether it be a failed rush or an ambush. This goes for marines as well as aliens. It is not so much that you spawn slowly, as much as it involves spawning individually. Once you suffer a single large loss, an alien in your spawn, preferably with focus, will simply kill your entire team one man at a time.
Aliens are less susceptible to this for a few reasons. Firstly, marines can't one hit kill except with the shotty, and that requires one to be close. But if a skulk spawns across the room from you, a marine does not possess the foot speed to blast it before it becomes aware of its surroundings. The alien has time to orient, whether it be because the marine is farther away or because marines can't normally one shot aliens. With the skulks maneuverability and speed, a little bit of dancing will often save its skin, or at least buy time for the next spawner.
The problem is related to the delicate skulk/marine balance. Skulks have speed where marines have range. Normally this isn't a problem, as a skulk normally has to cover some length of ground to reach a marine, thus making it vulnerable. When a skulk is in position to spawn camp however, that distance vulnerability is negated, because the marine spawns in right next to the skulk, disoriented to boot. The skulk's speed is also what protects it from being spawn camped, since a spawning skulk can start out running and dancing, sometimes enough to thwart the marine.
Even though it is helping to tip balance in the alien's favor, it still makes spawn camping too easy for both sides, and should be dumped in favor of at least a double spawn system.
<!--QuoteBegin-Recoup+Apr 26 2004, 05:22 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Recoup @ Apr 26 2004, 05:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If people could set aside looking for problems and try and have fun then it's always an entertaining experience. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> now i could have sworn that there was a purpose for releasing a BETA!
Looking for problems is EXACTLY the reason that we have it in our hands right now. Sure, some people have no inclination to do that and only play it because everyone else is playing it, but then they're really not helping the process any. If we wanted to play something just for the sake of playing it instead of testing it I'd imagine the majority of us would still be playing 1.04 or MAYBE 2.0. The reality is that 3.0 is still in beta and until it comes OUT of beta mode I for one will not be casting a blind eye at problems. When it does finally come out, ONLY THEN will i play it merely for an entertaining experience or at best playing it casually competitive. Its almost pointless to do otherwise, IMHO.
You create a Beta that introduces ideas to see if they are ENTERTAINING! I myself am not one to nit pick a whole lot and always enjoy playing NS, not because "Well everyone ELSE is doing it" but primarily I'm low on Multiplayer games to play and decided to give this MOD a whirl, and you know what? I enjoy it.
People can look for problems in a Beta, thats fine, and we have already IDENTIFIED these problems: bad spawning, upper hand for aliens, alien camping, there will ALWAYS be problems with games, and the Beta has its flaws to go with it, but its still just another idea to get people to like NS more with "new features". Im not complaining.
I'm getting really sick of people who just say "Don't die" whenever somebody complains about spawn-camping, shut the face up already, it's just as fricking annoying.
Rushes fail, you can't do anything about it, marines shouldn't lose because they all tried rushing together (OMG THEY USED TEAMWORK), it's either rush or camp, and marine camping gets more and more nerfed every beta.
Spawncamping sucks, but we know it's part of the game, I never cared about being spawncamped in classic(game over, oh well), or in combat when it was possible (but not easy) to break out of, now it's just retarded how easy the aliens have it when the marines are spawncamped, it should take some skill to keep it going, so that games don't feel so cheap.
Comments
to me, ns it the mix, rts and fps, and without the fps part, ns seems a lot worse to me, i didnt get a chance to do a lot of B4 yet, so i cannot give a honest current opinion, but to me, co was always "new cs" to me
but still, i see the point of this thread, ppl always posting tonnes of topics saying "this blows goat" does get annoying, very annoying.
The single best quote I've seen in this thread.
Classic is and always will be the best mode of Natural Selection, simply because it was the first time RTS and FPS games had ever been mixed. The originality can never be taken away.
However, Combat has virtues that make it a vital part of what NS is now. The gameplay is so different between the two, it would be hard for me to go back to playing Classic every game. You can do things in combat you'd never try (if you actually wanted to win) in classic. Suicide rushes, xeno bombings, just plain dodging around 5 guys with shotties are adrenaline rushes! These tactics may lose the match, but sometimes I just don't care. It's a game people; have fun. I try my hardest to win for the team in Classic, I try my hardest to have a good time in Combat. It's not like combat is <u>permanently</u> spoiling anyone for classic; any bad habits can be unlearned.
I also think it all depends on the person who plays it. Nit-pickers will have a funfest finding problems with it, but for someone who just wants to try and enjoy themselves it will be completely different. If people could set aside looking for problems and try and have fun then it's always an entertaining experience.
I played Combat as Aliens other night, wow, how much easier it is to play aliens, so much easier, I was very surprised at how fast the xp goes up as well... As an alien, I thought .. I dont have to kill anything really, all I have to do is sit and get xp.
As well, as an alien, you dont have to worry bout wastin upgrades on Scan, Welder, Resupply, just run back to hive and heal.
So unbalanced now its stupid, I am a well skilled marine that plays as a team player, as I get upgrades to help the side, scan, etc etc and still I see Marines losing 90%+ of the time.
I played on Gamearena servers last night, many good players on both sides, and found that Aliens were winning 9/10 games, this was with skilled players on both sides.
I have had friends asking me what I did on my break from Uni, Played NS Combat most the time, but said to them dont bother with it, as its gone down hill, and a waste of time. ( Unless you play Aliens, as this is for people with no Skill.)
<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I do not know what contributes to this statistic, but it seems that the instant marines start camping thier base, it's insta-lose....no doubt about it. Marines have to be extremely agressive to get anywhere, in combat or otherwise.
I would not say "I love the new spawn system" but I have to agree it works. Those boring marines-camp-in-base-and-spam-all-the-time games are history. Most players adapt to the new system and don't move out alone anymore. With even and equally skilled teams games still take around 10-20 minutes. Only uneven or team stacking games take 1-5 minutes.
But there is a serious problem. In early game marines have a good chance to win the game <b>if</b> they don't camp their base <b>or</b> camp very good (means aliens don't get any kills before marines get eg. GL). In late game marines can't win. Period. It needs a team of alien newbies, uneven teams (eg. 10vs7) or stacking in favour of marines to have a real chance of winning. By the time most aliens reach level 6-7 marines will get owned and sieged in their base (speaking about decent aliens, not newbies) because a single fade or onos can take out two or three marines. Then think about fades blinking in and slashing marines, lerks sporing, xeno skulks bombing and oni rushing the marine spawn. Game over. In all the games I played I haven't seen marines win a single high level game against decent aliens (I have seen things like 9 super skulks and 1 fade getting owned by marines but that's... omg...).
Conclussion: Aliens are overpowered in late game because of evolution power and one player spawn.
Solution: Change upgrade system, more marine upgrade points (to get more in line with classic) or change spawn system. Maybe someone else has better suggestions <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
It's not something that can be sold by "don't camp" or "aim lolz".
Tried Aliens out again tonight, ima so happy, its so easy playing Aliens, thank you NS team, we Aliens are the best now <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> win, win, win.
This game is a POS now.
of course people don't implement team work in publics...
whats their incentive?
help out a bunch of people they don't know / never will / don't care about? <-- what a good incentive that is.
99% of mod development is aimed towards Clan play. Whether that is right or wrong is a different story - if you want single play, go play quake / ut DM.
I'm all for team play - I love NS games where you get a good team that works together - it's refreshing. but the truth is you can moan all you want about the lack of team play but that's just how it is. so many games put in systems and ideas to enforce / encourage team play, but if you don't want to do it, there is nothing forcing you. (Except **** admins like me who kick solo players)
if you want constant team work, go and sit in the pickup channels, the gather channels, join a VERY active clan etc - there is team work, there is co-ordination etc.
any one tried playing combat in a clan-based game? it's awesome. perhaps the most balanced game ever - more balanced than Ns in my opinion.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->...i was worried that combat would take over NS and it seems that it has...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have a question, and then an answer to your question;
firstly, why do people who clearly HATE combat (and your entitled to think of it as you please) come into a combat thread and slate combat? whats the point? if you don't like combat, then just don't play it ,and don't worry your self over it.
combat has taken over classic in some respects because it is some thing new and refreshing. I've played classic since 1.03 (not a huge amount of time i know, but played it quite intensely) - i LOVED v1.04 ... every aspect of it except for the 2 hive lock down standoff. i didn't like ns2. it was too similar with small differences - every thing i was used to do doing didn't work. so i stopped. i took a 4 month break, and returned around the release of v3 and combat. classic hadn't changed significantly - it was just a slightly different style - it wasn't terribly appealing. Combat however, was new. it was a fresh idea, that was quick and exciting to play. games averaged 10 minutes, however you got the occasional longer game, and the occasional shorter game as expected - i loved them all.
that is why combat has possibly taken over classic - it's some thing new and fresh. of course it doens't have the depth that classic has, or the team play aspects, the tactics, development, etc etc etc, but thats not why people play it. you play a strategy game if you want that. you want a quick short-lived game, it's combat.
Aliens are less susceptible to this for a few reasons. Firstly, marines can't one hit kill except with the shotty, and that requires one to be close. But if a skulk spawns across the room from you, a marine does not possess the foot speed to blast it before it becomes aware of its surroundings. The alien has time to orient, whether it be because the marine is farther away or because marines can't normally one shot aliens. With the skulks maneuverability and speed, a little bit of dancing will often save its skin, or at least buy time for the next spawner.
The problem is related to the delicate skulk/marine balance. Skulks have speed where marines have range. Normally this isn't a problem, as a skulk normally has to cover some length of ground to reach a marine, thus making it vulnerable. When a skulk is in position to spawn camp however, that distance vulnerability is negated, because the marine spawns in right next to the skulk, disoriented to boot. The skulk's speed is also what protects it from being spawn camped, since a spawning skulk can start out running and dancing, sometimes enough to thwart the marine.
Even though it is helping to tip balance in the alien's favor, it still makes spawn camping too easy for both sides, and should be dumped in favor of at least a double spawn system.
now i could have sworn that there was a purpose for releasing a BETA!
Looking for problems is EXACTLY the reason that we have it in our hands right now. Sure, some people have no inclination to do that and only play it because everyone else is playing it, but then they're really not helping the process any. If we wanted to play something just for the sake of playing it instead of testing it I'd imagine the majority of us would still be playing 1.04 or MAYBE 2.0. The reality is that 3.0 is still in beta and until it comes OUT of beta mode I for one will not be casting a blind eye at problems. When it does finally come out, ONLY THEN will i play it merely for an entertaining experience or at best playing it casually competitive. Its almost pointless to do otherwise, IMHO.
People can look for problems in a Beta, thats fine, and we have already IDENTIFIED these problems: bad spawning, upper hand for aliens, alien camping, there will ALWAYS be problems with games, and the Beta has its flaws to go with it, but its still just another idea to get people to like NS more with "new features". Im not complaining.
Rushes fail, you can't do anything about it, marines shouldn't lose because they all tried rushing together (OMG THEY USED TEAMWORK), it's either rush or camp, and marine camping gets more and more nerfed every beta.
Spawncamping sucks, but we know it's part of the game, I never cared about being spawncamped in classic(game over, oh well), or in combat when it was possible (but not easy) to break out of, now it's just retarded how easy the aliens have it when the marines are spawncamped, it should take some skill to keep it going, so that games don't feel so cheap.