Well, this night I found 2 (a last) servers with Unchained Chambers. After playing a full map cycle I came to a conclusion: 1)The idea itself is good, makes more options as an alien. 2)the 50/50 win-ratio (that some one was talking about), comes from the MAP itself, not the players or chambers. In this case some maps are more alien-friendly, some marine-friendly.
So, both ways of chambers are fine.
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>But, this is my OWN opinion <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--></span>
---edited--- With unchaining, I suspect, the first upgrade, that marines will get, would be Motion Tracker (to find all those hidden SC's). ANd I don't think, that MT is MUCH more useful, then Armor/Wepon Upgrades.
I voted yes. Although I don't prefer playing Khaara, but it does get annoying that when you're skulk or lerk, you really don't get to have fun with the abilities
<!--QuoteBegin-giwi.ee+Jul 9 2004, 02:21 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (giwi.ee @ Jul 9 2004, 02:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> With unchaining, I suspect, the first upgrade, that marines will get, would be Motion Tracker (to find all those hidden SC's). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> MT does not show SCs, but an obs near by would.
--
{WZD}, I also am against that idea. The only really useful upgrades at lvl1 /2 are on the SC anyway, and so you will still end up going DMS as people would not want to get sc without some sort of dc upgrade. MCs are also toned down, as lvl 1/2 silence is 100% useless, as you can still be heard, and adren/clerity are hardly worth it, esp for higher lifeforms.
Unchaining chambers gives total control of upgrades, so skulks can have sc whilst onoses and fades dc. In your case, higer lifeforms are still stuck with one or more upgrades from A SINGLE chamber, and if sc HAS been placed first, (for skulks,) they are limited to sc upgrades...
--
I also agree that this dramatically increases "fun" element of Ns, (you chose what YOU want,) but may hamper team-play. (No more discussion on chambers, more rambos.) However this is cancelled out by the diversification of tactics.
Well we can keep it bumped until Flayra starts looking at features again after the Steam release. After that, who knows. Since Flayra doesn't exist on the forums anymore it's impossible to know what gets his attention.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zek+Jul 14 2004, 12:08 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Jul 14 2004, 12:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well we can keep it bumped until Flayra starts looking at features against after the Steam release. After that, who knows. Since Flayra doesn't exist on the forums anymore it's impossible to know what gets his attention. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, Flayra posted in the glow mod forums, that obviously got his attention. So... that means... *intense mental calculation* Flayra may or may not have seen this thread!
Come on, we know he's seen this thread. He reads these forums, we know that already. And then there are other people in the development team, no doubt at least one of them (or more likely, all of them) has (or have) seen this.
I voted yes. Why? I just played a 7v7 match on an unchained-chamber as a marine - and got beaten.
Without the chambers being unchained, I honestly believe the marines would have won. We had an excellent comm. He had armor 1 research going in the first minute of the match, and had capped 4 RTs in the first 2-3 minutes. We grunts worked as a team, and were all fairly skilled players. All of us were good shots, and we kept our eyeballs peeled for hostiles.
So how did we loose? <i>We lost because the aliens worked together to maximize the effect of their upgrades!</i> It was awesome. Two marines would chase after a regen gorge, only to be ambushed by 2 silenced skulks. A regen/celerity lerk swooped all around viaduct hive to distract us while a cloaked onos snuck in and <i>ate</i> our phase gate - then proceeded to eat most of us.
Quite frankly, it was one of the best NS games I have *ever* had. I wish they were all as good.
Unchain... A best single idea in the history of NS. Unchain is salvation from the DMS-lame-****-there-is-no-other-way-to-play. UGH !
Something to counter MT... hey lets get SC.. no noob DONIA#"#!!!"!11
I hate the <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> DC.
ADRENALINE makes people angry <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Trevelyan+Jul 19 2004, 03:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Trevelyan @ Jul 19 2004, 03:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Schimmel+Jul 19 2004, 01:40 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Schimmel @ Jul 19 2004, 01:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> celerity for everyone!!! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No... SILENCE for everyone! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Change the MC to give one of these as an area-of-effect benefit (instead of adrenaline), and then get the other as an upgrade.
Last night i was playing on tactical. I had 2 rounds on unchain.
1. Round: as alien we got ur ... wipped as usual one got 1 hive onos with 1 DC (1SC +2 RTs) ... so no good round but the com made a good point in that game: "Use the scan to counter the alien SC". Sounds simple but some that are opposed to the Unchain-issue dont get this in their head. SC is not ower powered if com is above the average noob-com. This means just that if com is on the hood he calls the shots but he cant be 2 places at time.
2.Round: As alien we got our ... .... Like above but now we just lost to a better marine team... 1 vs 1 situations i mean. One time I was stalking an marine to come to my cloacked ambush and ... WTH my cloack didnt work... The marine had to ask com to scan the area... DAMIT.. SC can be cauntered OMG... 2 games in a row ??!
So no balance issues at SC being too ower powered if com just can do something...
I had another round in a spanis medical server.. no unchain there. We had SC in start... we killed the marines from messhall... then killed em from the hall next to it... killed them from mother,,, and won the game... and not a sigle scan.´
Can someone tell me why did we lost and why did we win ?
As chain chamber SC is so easily countered by average com... so the price to use it is too high... and this suck. SC is more in the "right" feeling in NS ... u know the fear-effect... it going to be more like CS or some other "pure-skill"-frag hunt **** game if this DMS is here to stay. In DMS its like saying that CS_DUST has some suprice-element on it.
But anyway NS is good.. let see that its the best in the future.
PS sorry about my bad eng... not my native languageege
<!--QuoteBegin-Exitus+Jul 20 2004, 02:38 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Exitus @ Jul 20 2004, 02:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> In DMS its like saying that CS_DUST has some suprice-element on it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Heh, too true. Or maps like NS_Misslecommand required strategy too <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Exitus+Jul 27 2004, 09:39 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Exitus @ Jul 27 2004, 09:39 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Lovely... Last night it had one round as marine ... aliens had the SC... So we won !!
no com didnt use scan. Com didnt build extra obs. Com didnt get 1. armo up till 10 minutes...
U can win with sc in curret version.. But still I read these alien comments (as marine) "Noob... we are lost we have SC"...
<span style='color:red'><span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>UNITED I-HATE-DC-FIRST</span></span> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Of course you -CAN- win with SC first, even on chained servers, but that depends on the OTHER player.
In a chained server, the marine team is given the CAPABILITY to win despite your actions if you go SC first. This doesn't mean that they WILL force a win, just that they CAN force a win. They cannot do likewise with the DC. People avoid SC first like the plague because they don't want to hand the POTENTIAL for an instant win to the enemy, if if there's a chance the enemy won't take it. It is true that the longer people play without ever seeing SC first, the more will forget the strategies that force a win against it, but that doesn't mean that said strategy isn't still there.
This will open up so many different options for the aliens because you could have skulks with silence, cele, focus, cloak; gorges could get cele or adren which is far more helpful than cara or regen because they are too slow to get away anyway; lerks could have either defnesive or movement upgrades.... this all at one hive.
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
Could we have a second poll that only counts users who have already voted, asking if they've actually played on an "Unchained" server? <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+Jul 28 2004, 07:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Jul 28 2004, 07:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Could we have a second poll that only counts users who have already voted, asking if they've actually played on an "Unchained" server? <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree, it's like voting for something in China, if you are not Chinese.
Even if chambers do get nerfed, AT least there will be more variety in this game. If they get nerfed so what, we will adapt to it. The game does NOT adapt to us, we adapt to it. Exploits however are a different issue.
If unchained does not get it, at least make sensory and movement a more viable chamber to use. The reason D chambers are first is that it gives bigger life forms more time and what I mean by that is that the reason you aren't attacking a base or what is you have limitations on HP, that is the main reason you have to run back. While you could be in the battlezone, you have to recharge HP, kinda like ammo.
Alien limitation is primarily HP/Armor, while marines are usually ammo. Ammo however is easy to obtain large quantities and can be sended to you via ammo pack. Without DCs, larger aliens can't be effective in being out in battle zones and preventing advancing marines, effectively making them less powerful.
unchaining the chambers would be a nice change You dont choose Defensechambers first for regen I often use it for carapace as the regen is too slow so i go back to hive and get full energy which is much faster then diing and respawn
The point is now someone builds sc or whatever at first and the whole team is angry about that like in early games of NS someone noob went gorge also marines can build all their buildings and benefit of their features aliens can not OCs would even be more powerful in the early game with a MC behind them or cloaked also u could have silence or cloaking in early games for skulking action Now with DMS this is impossible Maybe test this you could remove this feature if it doesn't work I mean its still beta
Comments
Why?
Well, this night I found 2 (a last) servers with Unchained Chambers. After playing a full map cycle I came to a conclusion:
1)The idea itself is good, makes more options as an alien.
2)the 50/50 win-ratio (that some one was talking about), comes from the MAP itself, not the players or chambers. In this case some maps are more alien-friendly, some marine-friendly.
So, both ways of chambers are fine.
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>But, this is my OWN opinion <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--></span>
---edited---
With unchaining, I suspect, the first upgrade, that marines will get, would be Motion Tracker (to find all those hidden SC's). ANd I don't think, that MT is MUCH more useful, then Armor/Wepon Upgrades.
With unchaining, I suspect, the first upgrade, that marines will get, would be Motion Tracker (to find all those hidden SC's). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
MT does not show SCs, but an obs near by would.
--
{WZD}, I also am against that idea. The only really useful upgrades at lvl1 /2 are on the SC anyway, and so you will still end up going DMS as people would not want to get sc without some sort of dc upgrade.
MCs are also toned down, as lvl 1/2 silence is 100% useless, as you can still be heard, and adren/clerity are hardly worth it, esp for higher lifeforms.
Unchaining chambers gives total control of upgrades, so skulks can have sc whilst onoses and fades dc. In your case, higer lifeforms are still stuck with one or more upgrades from A SINGLE chamber, and if sc HAS been placed first, (for skulks,) they are limited to sc upgrades...
--
I also agree that this dramatically increases "fun" element of Ns, (you chose what YOU want,) but may hamper team-play. (No more discussion on chambers, more rambos.) However this is cancelled out by the diversification of tactics.
Maybe I'm wrong here but would it not be best if (21 pages later) we could lock this thread and then have some feedback from flayra?
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Pure utopia <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
meh who cares doodZ!
Well, Flayra posted in the glow mod forums, that obviously got his attention. So... that means... *intense mental calculation* Flayra may or may not have seen this thread!
Come on, we know he's seen this thread. He reads these forums, we know that already. And then there are other people in the development team, no doubt at least one of them (or more likely, all of them) has (or have) seen this.
Without the chambers being unchained, I honestly believe the marines would have won. We had an excellent comm. He had armor 1 research going in the first minute of the match, and had capped 4 RTs in the first 2-3 minutes. We grunts worked as a team, and were all fairly skilled players. All of us were good shots, and we kept our eyeballs peeled for hostiles.
So how did we loose? <i>We lost because the aliens worked together to maximize the effect of their upgrades!</i> It was awesome. Two marines would chase after a regen gorge, only to be ambushed by 2 silenced skulks. A regen/celerity lerk swooped all around viaduct hive to distract us while a cloaked onos snuck in and <i>ate</i> our phase gate - then proceeded to eat most of us.
Quite frankly, it was one of the best NS games I have *ever* had. I wish they were all as good.
Unchain... A best single idea in the history of NS. Unchain is salvation from the DMS-lame-****-there-is-no-other-way-to-play. UGH !
Something to counter MT... hey lets get SC.. no noob DONIA#"#!!!"!11
I hate the <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> DC.
No... SILENCE for everyone! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
No... SILENCE for everyone! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Change the MC to give one of these as an area-of-effect benefit (instead of adrenaline), and then get the other as an upgrade.
Last night i was playing on tactical. I had 2 rounds on unchain.
1. Round: as alien we got ur ... wipped as usual one got 1 hive onos with 1 DC (1SC +2 RTs) ... so no good round but the com made a good point in that game: "Use the scan to counter the alien SC". Sounds simple but some that are opposed to the Unchain-issue dont get this in their head. SC is not ower powered if com is above the average noob-com. This means just that if com is on the hood he calls the shots but he cant be 2 places at time.
2.Round: As alien we got our ... .... Like above but now we just lost to a better marine team... 1 vs 1 situations i mean. One time I was stalking an marine to come to my cloacked ambush and ... WTH my cloack didnt work... The marine had to ask com to scan the area... DAMIT.. SC can be cauntered OMG... 2 games in a row ??!
So no balance issues at SC being too ower powered if com just can do something...
I had another round in a spanis medical server.. no unchain there. We had SC in start... we killed the marines from messhall... then killed em from the hall next to it... killed them from mother,,, and won the game... and not a sigle scan.´
Can someone tell me why did we lost and why did we win ?
As chain chamber SC is so easily countered by average com... so the price to use it is too high... and this suck. SC is more in the "right" feeling in NS ... u know the fear-effect... it going to be more like CS or some other "pure-skill"-frag hunt **** game if this DMS is here to stay. In DMS its like saying that CS_DUST has some suprice-element on it.
But anyway NS is good.. let see that its the best in the future.
PS sorry about my bad eng... not my native languageege
PSP <span style='color:red'><span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>UNITED DC-FIRST HATERS</span></span> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif' /><!--endemo--> DC
Heh, too true. Or maps like NS_Misslecommand required strategy too <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
no com didnt use scan.
Com didnt build extra obs.
Com didnt get 1. armo up till 10 minutes...
U can win with sc in curret version.. But still I read these alien comments (as marine) "Noob... we are lost we have SC"...
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif' /><!--endemo--> DC
<span style='color:red'><span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>UNITED I-HATE-DC-FIRST</span></span>
no com didnt use scan.
Com didnt build extra obs.
Com didnt get 1. armo up till 10 minutes...
U can win with sc in curret version.. But still I read these alien comments (as marine) "Noob... we are lost we have SC"...
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif' /><!--endemo--> DC
<span style='color:red'><span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>UNITED I-HATE-DC-FIRST</span></span> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course you -CAN- win with SC first, even on chained servers, but that depends on the OTHER player.
In a chained server, the marine team is given the CAPABILITY to win despite your actions if you go SC first. This doesn't mean that they WILL force a win, just that they CAN force a win. They cannot do likewise with the DC. People avoid SC first like the plague because they don't want to hand the POTENTIAL for an instant win to the enemy, if if there's a chance the enemy won't take it. It is true that the longer people play without ever seeing SC first, the more will forget the strategies that force a win against it, but that doesn't mean that said strategy isn't still there.
i say hell yes
agreed
Fade and Onos got nerfed.
So, what will happen if they unchain the chambers?
The chambers will get nerfed.
I agree, it's like voting for something in China, if you are not Chinese.
Even if chambers do get nerfed, AT least there will be more variety in this game. If they get nerfed so what, we will adapt to it. The game does NOT adapt to us, we adapt to it. Exploits however are a different issue.
If unchained does not get it, at least make sensory and movement a more viable chamber to use. The reason D chambers are first is that it gives bigger life forms more time and what I mean by that is that the reason you aren't attacking a base or what is you have limitations on HP, that is the main reason you have to run back. While you could be in the battlezone, you have to recharge HP, kinda like ammo.
Alien limitation is primarily HP/Armor, while marines are usually ammo. Ammo however is easy to obtain large quantities and can be sended to you via ammo pack. Without DCs, larger aliens can't be effective in being out in battle zones and preventing advancing marines, effectively making them less powerful.
You dont choose Defensechambers first for regen
I often use it for carapace as the regen is too slow so i go back to hive and get full energy which is much faster then diing and respawn
The point is now
someone builds sc or whatever at first and the whole team is angry about that
like in early games of NS someone noob went gorge
also marines can build all their buildings and benefit of their features
aliens can not
OCs would even be more powerful in the early game with a MC behind them or cloaked
also u could have silence or cloaking in early games for skulking action
Now with DMS this is impossible
Maybe test this
you could remove this feature if it doesn't work
I mean its still beta