NS doesn't need a flamethrower. I don't want a flamethrower. There is no purpose for a flamethrower. It's another toy for the marines that wouldn't sensibly let them do anything new. solution? Let's come up with some crazy and unneccessary features!
stops/slows regen? prevents upgrade chambers from working? light aliens on fire for BS kills? now that's just silly. lets give marines some more stuff that is just plain annoying!
flamethrowers are cool in MOVIES. there is no place for a flamethrower in ns.
adding a flamethrower because it is "cool" to some people just isn't a legitimate reason and the "wow factor" is gone VERY quickly.
if the marines get a flamethrower, the aliens get centipedes OF DOOM
if the aliens get fire breathing onos, god help the marines <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> or just get them shields..
<!--QuoteBegin-frostymoose+Jun 27 2004, 07:37 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (frostymoose @ Jun 27 2004, 07:37 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> NS doesn't need a flamethrower. I don't want a flamethrower. There is no purpose for a flamethrower. It's another toy for the marines that wouldn't sensibly let them do anything new. solution? Let's come up with some crazy and unneccessary features!
stops/slows regen? prevents upgrade chambers from working? light aliens on fire for BS kills? now that's just silly. lets give marines some more stuff that is just plain annoying!
flamethrowers are cool in MOVIES. there is no place for a flamethrower in ns.
adding a flamethrower because it is "cool" to some people just isn't a legitimate reason and the "wow factor" is gone VERY quickly. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> OK, now that you made all those claims, would you care to elaborate with a few arguments?
By the way, it's absolutely viable to include something because it is 'cool'. That word is not synonymous with 'OMG OMG OMG OMG I WANTZ'-screaming kiddos, after all. It can also be used in the sense of 'fitting and enhancing the games atmosphere and a teams playing style', for example, and there have been numerous examples of how to make the flamethrower a support weapon throughout the pages.
The marines do really not need more "wow-factor" they are strong enough already. Every been in a Heavy train? Or pistol sniped Kharaa? Flown around with JP/Shotty while medpack spammed? Why do ppl play Marines more than Kharaa? You guys know my <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=73805' target='_blank'>point</a>
You can never have enough "wow-factor", as far as I'm concerned. Why should there be a limit to something that improves a game's atmosphere, and possibly the gameplay too. Obviously you don't know how gameplay will be affected until its tested, but..
<!--QuoteBegin-AlienCow!+Jun 27 2004, 11:12 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AlienCow! @ Jun 27 2004, 11:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You can never have enough "wow-factor", as far as I'm concerned. Why should there be a limit to something that improves a game's atmosphere, and possibly the gameplay too. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Flayra does not want the game to be only *wow* but balanced as well, he tries to keep things even, by adding things to BOTH the teams.
Again, Zaggy, you're not understanding the point of the whole flamethrower suggestion. Nobody thinks marines need the flamethrower to make them stronger. It's not a balance suggestion at all; please stop treating it like one. How overpowered people think marines are has <b>no</b> bearing on this discussion whatsoever. If the flamethrower is added in, it can be balanced so that it provides wow factor without unbalancing the game. And even after a flamethrower is added you can still nerf things like heavy trains or JP/Shotties or whatever if it's necessary. And if it isn't then the game is still as balanced as before, just more fun.
There are a number of good suggestions for where the flamethrower can fit into the marine team on this thread. If it initially creates a balance problem then that can be fixed. We know it's not necessary. Repeating that argument is meaningless, as nobody is trying to disagree with you there. Nobody wants a flamethrower out of necessity to marine balance. If balance was all we cared about then things would be a lot simpler if we got rid of Lerks and Fades and Onoses and the entire upper tech tree. That way it would just be LMGs and Shotties vs. Skulks and Gorges and the game would be so much simpler to balance. Do you know why that's not how NS is right now? Take a wild guess.
So let's stick to arguments that actually make some progress in the issue. If you're against the flamethrower, please come up with meaningful reasons besides the obvious "it's not necessary" and "it might unbalance something!" For starters, frosty, why do you think those suggestions are "silly?" Do you have an argument to back that up?
But why am I so sure that the Marines are and will be the favored race on the <img src='http://www.divorcenet.com/clipart/scales.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
But meh, if the flamethrower does not horribly affect the balance, and succesfull replaces any of the excisting weapons, its fine by me.
Make a flamethrower that always does FF damage, even if FF is not on. Makes it a lot easier to balance. No flame-spam. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Why the assumption that flamethrowers will buff the marines? We don't know that for a fact, but we do know that it will add depth to the marine game; another option for winning.
I'm starting to get this whole idea about how not to worry about balance now and worry about it later, and I like it
yeah if you want to make the Aliens stronger you need to make the marines stronger, I'm sure that the aliens would get a cool counter to the flamethrower and if the aliens got it then that'd be cool to. don't be so closed minded, the argument of " we don't need it" just won't cut the mustard, right now a lot of people think the FT would add to gameplay and be cool, so you'll have to cook up something better then just that.
if NS stops growing here and now why would the dev teams bother making a NS2? for reals we got to keep wanting new things and more stuff for the game to grow, and I think the flamethrower is a great thing to want.
I think the FT probably wont have a hue AOE it would be good for enclosed areas (like vents) I personally can't wait until HL2 (or sooner) when it probably will be implemented.
I think a Flame-thrower should be volumetric for one.
The Flame-thrower should be a class of sorts. Should have heavy armor, a back-pack of fuel but can only be refueled at armory. (in CO games can be refueled with resupply)
The FT class (i guess i'll call it that) would have 3 weapons of sorts. The Flame-thrower would have 2 types of flames stream and ball, steam would be contsant but ball could only be used once every 5 - 15 secs, the ball could kill a lerk with one hit but not a fade or ono. Also the pistol and knife should be removed and replaced with a machete or something that does a little more damage then knife.
Also needs to be expensive, also no jet pack, needs to be slow. I think this would help balance out a Flame-thrower.
I find NO point for this weapon... shotguns are meant for close range...
I think the team needs to focus on improving some of the more difficult to use effectively alien abilities... such as: Primal Scream, Charge, and maybe Acid Rocket... I also think movement chambers should be changed since they are only built at hives... would be nice too see them at other places in the map...
were talking about a flamethrower not movement chambers.
a shotgun can't clear out vents if the flame thrower is volumetric then it'll be way cool, in a big room you won't be able ot burn down much, but it'll be deadly in vents.
<!--QuoteBegin-Avenger-X+Jun 27 2004, 11:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Avenger-X @ Jun 27 2004, 11:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> a shotgun can't clear out vents if the flame thrower is volumetric then it'll be way cool, in a big room you won't be able ot burn down much, but it'll be deadly in vents. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> *whisper's in avenger's ear: that's what grenades are for <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->*
Flamethrowers were proposed to be vent cleaners. Well, in early game you have nades, late game you have the GL or Jetpackers. I cant really think of it fitting into a role that hasnt been done by other weapons.
so what? you just think we have every possible thing NS needs? well then forget about beta5.0 kids cuz you think the marines have all the weapons they need
you gotta use your imagination, if we throw in a new weapon for marines it'll make the game that much more cool and diverse
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The flame thrower would be a lot cooler if you could set parts of the map on fire with it. (like a ring of fire around your turret factory)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I doubt thats possible <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> HL2 here we come!
But for the here and now..
Out of interest, could anyone tell me just how good fire can look in Half Life? Would it take a lot of work to improve on (for instance) the TFC flamethrower? I know nothin about it , just wanna know whether it can be improved a lot. If it cant be any better than the TFC one, I honestly think it wouldn't be worth having, as it would bring down the game. NS is basically the best looking mod for HL, and drab effects would ruin it.
I honestly don't think the flamethrower would fit the theme of NS at all. NS has already gone very cartoony and lacks suspense. The flamethrower is a great weapon in games like AvP because it makes you feel safer, you can check out dark corners, blast a vent with flames to check it's clear, but in NS it'll just make it seem more like TFC (e.g. Arcadey)
Gameplay wise I think it could be great. It could open up a lot more possibilities for mapping especially if it's a researchable tech. Closed up spaces wouldn't nesecarrily be the best places for aliens anymore. It would certainly add variety.
Finaly I think the aliens getting the flamethrower would be the most 'fun' solution. Nothing would be more funny than a 3rd hive gorge spirting fire at the marines.
Flamethrower isn't needed until HL2 and NS2 comes out. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I see a lot of people basicly sayin "No we don't want this." <span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>(Since this is a game there is no such thing as a need - please don't go off sayin 'of course there is a need', I really don't want to get into that.)</span>
But very few people are offering anything that could help.
"Don't discourage the other man's plans unless you have better ones to offer." - Alfred A. Montapert
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Out of interest, could anyone tell me just how good fire can look in Half Life? Would it take a lot of work to improve on (for instance) the TFC flamethrower? I know nothin about it , just wanna know whether it can be improved a lot. If it cant be any better than the TFC one, I honestly think it wouldn't be worth having, as it would bring down the game. NS is basically the best looking mod for HL, and drab effects would ruin it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Somewhere in this thread I think (it might be a different thread), it was said that there are three requirements for the flamethrower. 1. It has to be volumetric. 2. It has to look good. 3. It has to work without killing lower-end computers. Any two of those can be done at once, but not all three.
There is never No point in adding something to a game, I mean an extra gun is damn cool thats all it is, its more fun!!
I mean it would be f***ing amazing if there were hundreds of different aliens and stuff and so much more to do, we cant have that though so dream on <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> BUT we can have a flamethrower!!
Its just so pretty, imagine 3 skulks attacking the flamethrower he lights up and they are all like OMG WTH A FLAMETHROWER!!!!! FADDEEE HELPPP!!! and the the Fade comes and is like OMG !!!! A FLAMETHROWER COOLIO, then proceeds to kill it causing it to explode blowing up everything and making lots of prettyness!!
Fact is its just cool! and if you argue with me i will make <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif' /><!--endemo--> <-- that face at you and cry
<!--QuoteBegin--Thief-+Jun 24 2004, 12:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (-Thief- @ Jun 24 2004, 12:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> We dont need a flame thrower. Itd be cool, but marines just have too many advantages right now.
What the aliens really need are more long range weapons, why don't we give them that? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Im a newb so if you dont like my idea, then dont read it:
A FT is a decent idea. I made this joke a while back, and I think it holds pretty ttrue too.
Two problems I have with NS:
1) The aliens I can kill effecintlly are fast and up to my knee. 2) Anything BIGGER needs Bush to declare WAR on it to win.
Think about it. The Marines get 100 or so armor at most, and 100hp.
Aliens get 2 creatures that have like 200hp and 300 armor. hmm Unbalenced you say? I do
Also, Aliens most of the time, get one shot kills. And mostly if its not one shot. Its two to five.
The Marines I believe got **** luck for weapons. Fades are almost impossible to kill one on one or even 2 on 1. I had a squad of people, and all 5 of us were wiped out by 2 fades. Both fades lived.
A FT would probably even the odds, at least on a SPORE lvl. Rines dont have anything that lingers around after it has been realeased.
Comments
stops/slows regen? prevents upgrade chambers from working? light aliens on fire for BS kills? now that's just silly. lets give marines some more stuff that is just plain annoying!
flamethrowers are cool in MOVIES. there is no place for a flamethrower in ns.
adding a flamethrower because it is "cool" to some people just isn't a legitimate reason and the "wow factor" is gone VERY quickly.
if the aliens get fire breathing onos, god help the marines <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> or just get them shields..
stops/slows regen? prevents upgrade chambers from working? light aliens on fire for BS kills? now that's just silly. lets give marines some more stuff that is just plain annoying!
flamethrowers are cool in MOVIES. there is no place for a flamethrower in ns.
adding a flamethrower because it is "cool" to some people just isn't a legitimate reason and the "wow factor" is gone VERY quickly. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
OK, now that you made all those claims, would you care to elaborate with a few arguments?
By the way, it's absolutely viable to include something because it is 'cool'. That word is not synonymous with 'OMG OMG OMG OMG I WANTZ'-screaming kiddos, after all. It can also be used in the sense of 'fitting and enhancing the games atmosphere and a teams playing style', for example, and there have been numerous examples of how to make the flamethrower a support weapon throughout the pages.
Every been in a Heavy train? Or pistol sniped Kharaa? Flown around with JP/Shotty while medpack spammed? Why do ppl play Marines more than Kharaa?
You guys know my <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=73805' target='_blank'>point</a>
Why should there be a limit to something that improves a game's atmosphere, and possibly the gameplay too. Obviously you don't know how gameplay will be affected until its tested, but..
we want WOW!
we want WOW!
we want WOW!
...eheheh. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
But seriously, only if it looks good. None of that TFC Pyro crap, it looks plain bad lol.
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <span style='color:yellow'><<<</span><span style='color:orange'><<<</span><span style='color:red'>)))</span>
Why should there be a limit to something that improves a game's atmosphere, and possibly the gameplay too.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Flayra does not want the game to be only *wow* but balanced as well, he tries to keep things even, by adding things to BOTH the teams.
You dont KNOW if its balanced until its in.
Do you?
There are a number of good suggestions for where the flamethrower can fit into the marine team on this thread. If it initially creates a balance problem then that can be fixed. We know it's not necessary. Repeating that argument is meaningless, as nobody is trying to disagree with you there. Nobody wants a flamethrower out of necessity to marine balance. If balance was all we cared about then things would be a lot simpler if we got rid of Lerks and Fades and Onoses and the entire upper tech tree. That way it would just be LMGs and Shotties vs. Skulks and Gorges and the game would be so much simpler to balance. Do you know why that's not how NS is right now? Take a wild guess.
So let's stick to arguments that actually make some progress in the issue. If you're against the flamethrower, please come up with meaningful reasons besides the obvious "it's not necessary" and "it might unbalance something!" For starters, frosty, why do you think those suggestions are "silly?" Do you have an argument to back that up?
But meh, if the flamethrower does not horribly affect the balance, and succesfull replaces any of the excisting weapons, its fine by me.
Oh wow, that great!
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <span style='color:yellow'><<<</span><span style='color:orange'><<<</span><span style='color:red'>)))</span> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Wheee!
On topic: Fun before balance. I want a flamethrower for atmosphere. That is all.
yeah if you want to make the Aliens stronger you need to make the marines stronger, I'm sure that the aliens would get a cool counter to the flamethrower and if the aliens got it then that'd be cool to. don't be so closed minded, the argument of " we don't need it" just won't cut the mustard, right now a lot of people think the FT would add to gameplay and be cool, so you'll have to cook up something better then just that.
if NS stops growing here and now why would the dev teams bother making a NS2? for reals we got to keep wanting new things and more stuff for the game to grow, and I think the flamethrower is a great thing to want.
The Flame-thrower should be a class of sorts. Should have heavy armor, a back-pack of fuel but can only be refueled at armory. (in CO games can be refueled with resupply)
The FT class (i guess i'll call it that) would have 3 weapons of sorts. The Flame-thrower would have 2 types of flames stream and ball, steam would be contsant but ball could only be used once every 5 - 15 secs, the ball could kill a lerk with one hit but not a fade or ono. Also the pistol and knife should be removed and replaced with a machete or something that does a little more damage then knife.
Also needs to be expensive, also no jet pack, needs to be slow.
I think this would help balance out a Flame-thrower.
I think the team needs to focus on improving some of the more difficult to use effectively alien abilities... such as: Primal Scream, Charge, and maybe Acid Rocket... I also think movement chambers should be changed since they are only built at hives... would be nice too see them at other places in the map...
a shotgun can't clear out vents if the flame thrower is volumetric then it'll be way cool, in a big room you won't be able ot burn down much, but it'll be deadly in vents.
*whisper's in avenger's ear: that's what grenades are for <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->*
Flamethrowers were proposed to be vent cleaners. Well, in early game you have nades, late game you have the GL or Jetpackers. I cant really think of it fitting into a role that hasnt been done by other weapons.
you gotta use your imagination, if we throw in a new weapon for marines it'll make the game that much more cool and diverse
Although I do admit if it did "burn" damage (a la TFC) to aliens it would cripple a lot of the bigger classes from doing hit and runs.
I doubt thats possible <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> HL2 here we come!
But for the here and now..
Out of interest, could anyone tell me just how good fire can look in Half Life? Would it take a lot of work to improve on (for instance) the TFC flamethrower? I know nothin about it , just wanna know whether it can be improved a lot. If it cant be any better than the TFC one, I honestly think it wouldn't be worth having, as it would bring down the game. NS is basically the best looking mod for HL, and drab effects would ruin it.
Gameplay wise I think it could be great. It could open up a lot more possibilities for mapping especially if it's a researchable tech. Closed up spaces wouldn't nesecarrily be the best places for aliens anymore. It would certainly add variety.
Finaly I think the aliens getting the flamethrower would be the most 'fun' solution. Nothing would be more funny than a 3rd hive gorge spirting fire at the marines.
Meto
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>(Since this is a game there is no such thing as a need - please don't go off sayin 'of course there is a need', I really don't want to get into that.)</span>
But very few people are offering anything that could help.
"Don't discourage the other man's plans unless you have better ones to offer." - Alfred A. Montapert
Somewhere in this thread I think (it might be a different thread), it was said that there are three requirements for the flamethrower.
1. It has to be volumetric.
2. It has to look good.
3. It has to work without killing lower-end computers.
Any two of those can be done at once, but not all three.
I mean it would be f***ing amazing if there were hundreds of different aliens and stuff and so much more to do, we cant have that though so dream on <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> BUT we can have a flamethrower!!
Its just so pretty, imagine 3 skulks attacking the flamethrower he lights up and they are all like OMG WTH A FLAMETHROWER!!!!! FADDEEE HELPPP!!! and the the Fade comes and is like OMG !!!! A FLAMETHROWER COOLIO, then proceeds to kill it causing it to explode blowing up everything and making lots of prettyness!!
Fact is its just cool! and if you argue with me i will make <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif' /><!--endemo--> <-- that face at you and cry
What the aliens really need are more long range weapons, why don't we give them that? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Im a newb so if you dont like my idea, then dont read it:
A FT is a decent idea. I made this joke a while back, and I think it holds pretty ttrue too.
Two problems I have with NS:
1) The aliens I can kill effecintlly are fast and up to my knee.
2) Anything BIGGER needs Bush to declare WAR on it to win.
Think about it. The Marines get 100 or so armor at most, and 100hp.
Aliens get 2 creatures that have like 200hp and 300 armor. hmm Unbalenced you say? I do
Also, Aliens most of the time, get one shot kills. And mostly if its not one shot. Its two to five.
The Marines I believe got **** luck for weapons. Fades are almost impossible to kill one on one or even 2 on 1. I had a squad of people, and all 5 of us were wiped out by 2 fades. Both fades lived.
A FT would probably even the odds, at least on a SPORE lvl. Rines dont have anything that lingers around after it has been realeased.