<!--QuoteBegin-crisano+Sep 28 2004, 01:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (crisano @ Sep 28 2004, 01:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Wouldn't building mine ladders and structure boosting be opposed to the game concept as well? But ingenius marines and commanders will put those two tactics into good use as well and it seems to be accepted since no one is whining about them. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Then what exactly was the point of solidifying the mines? I see no reason to have changed mines this way other than making ladders. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
edit: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->QUOTE (crisano @ Sep 28 2004, 01:31 PM) Wouldn't building mine ladders and structure boosting be opposed to the game concept as well? But ingenius marines and commanders will put those two tactics into good use as well and it seems to be accepted since no one is whining about them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then what exactly was the point of solidifying the mines? I see no reason to have changed mines this way other than making ladders. tounge.gif<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i think its either solid mines that can be made to ladders, or the 2.0 way - two dozen mines can be dropped at the same spot, and you never now how many there actually are =/
I'm pretty sure they didn't solidify mines to let marines use mine ladders, it was just a byproduct of creative people seeing an opportunity to do something else with what they had and exploring it. I think solidifying the mines was as TOmekki, making it so you can't stack mines, thereby making Fade/Onos traps with a few packs of mines.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If the dev team say they're ok then they can't really be counted as "opposed" to the game concept, imho. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's very true and I agree, but I think the main argument here is that the devs have been either getting one-sided info or the wrong impression of a strategy. Thus changing a viable and ingenious strat into an exploit. From personal experience, I've only seen CC blocking used in say 1 in 25 pugs/scrims/matches that I've played in, maybe even less than that. On public servers that allow CC blocking, even less and its because not all commanders have CC blocking in the forefront of their mind. Sometimes things are just so bottled up that the commander is usually too busy with other plans and saving his marines, juggling between saving base, saving his RTs, setting up an offensive outpost and only rarely does the idea of CC blocking flash into his brain that he can use it effectively. The strategy of CC blocking was just blown out of proportion, a lot of the lesser skilled public players start screaming exploit and unfair because one skilled commander was able to CC block their res****d onos to death when they try to attack marine base by themselves without support. People believe ramboing marines should be penalized, why not ramboing onoses.
I don't think I've ever seen wallhacking but that doesn't stop it being an exploit, if you get my meaning.
The fact that something is or is not hard to do doesn't stop it being any less of an exploit. I don't believe its a "skill" issue. Secondly, a hoarder onos is generally a dumb player and thus CC blocking isn't going to make it any easier to kill him. CC blocking becomes annoying at mid-end game when fades and the first real onos are on their way to base, rush in with full hitpoints, leave with about half, then get caught on a CC and shot to death. And even in endgame situations you will get poor commanders who spend time trying to drop CC on any alien they can find "just because".
I don't think this fix is coming about because really poor players don't like getting blocked.
In servers I've played in, when the aliens storm the marine base, it usually ends in success or complete failure. From what I've seen, when the ailens group up, there's usually 1 or 2 onos, 1 or 2 fades, and atleast 1 lerk plus a gorge. That combo in itself is very deadly, throw in a couple of harrassing skulks in there and its almost a sure win. That's because the lerk knows to gas and umbra, along with the other players who know their roles. They charge in to kill the base, not a hit and run which most onos are doing these days.
In the endgame cases you talk about, I've seen it happen a few times but that just annoys the aliens, it never changed the outcome which was a marine loss. It's the mentality the aliens have in pubs right now that if marines turtle in base, it's really hard to rout them which isn't true. Players are afraid to charge in these days and just tear it up, usually when they run in and start to get shot, they quickly try to run away to live again. That's usually because they don't have a team backing them up and just the wrong type of strategy. When they can't run away because they get strategically blocked, then they get all pissy and whiney. Instead if they had the team's support, they could've either killed the base or have taken down key stuctures aka arms lab, adv. armory, what have you.
Hitting and running is essential sometimes even with a full team of support. If the aliens have went for the win then they can't afford to die due to an exploit.
This exploit drags the game out unnecessarily and allows woefully outclassed marines to put aliens in a bizarre strategic position. Especially when you have to consider that some players go for carapace and as a result MUST leave the marine base in order to find DCs or Gorges.
An alien player runs into MS and starts doing damage at endgame, the rines shoot back, he gets to around 50% health and decides to run. CC appears, blocks him, he dies. If he'd seen the CC on the way in, then he'd have fled with more health. If he'd seen it in the corridor on his way out then he'd be ready to crouch jump. If it magically appears under his nose then he's going to be stalled, and if he has any team mates then they're going to squish against the CC Three Stooges style.
Its really about much much more than very earlygame hoarder Onos.
TheAdjHe demanded a cool forum title of some type.Join Date: 2004-05-03Member: 28436Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-Necrosis+Sep 29 2004, 01:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Sep 29 2004, 01:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't think I've ever seen wallhacking but that doesn't stop it being an exploit, if you get my meaning.
The fact that something is or is not hard to do doesn't stop it being any less of an exploit. I don't believe its a "skill" issue. Secondly, a hoarder onos is generally a dumb player and thus CC blocking isn't going to make it any easier to kill him. CC blocking becomes annoying at mid-end game when fades and the first real onos are on their way to base, rush in with full hitpoints, leave with about half, then get caught on a CC and shot to death. And even in endgame situations you will get poor commanders who spend time trying to drop CC on any alien they can find "just because".
I don't think this fix is coming about because really poor players don't like getting blocked. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The problem is according to the ruling by the devteam, you could simply drop 2 ccs in the doorway when no onos are in base and its not an exploit, because you're preventing them from easy access to an area.
To be honest, if you go Carapace Onos, you shouldn't have retreat at all in the back of your mind. A carapace onos with a lerk constantly giving it umbra plus a blinking fade can pretty much tear up the marine base, with its new armor boost. I have yet to see a carapace onos die to 5-6 marines with umbra coverage and a fade providing swipe support. With a couple of leaping skulks, the domination becomes even more lopsided because chances are, the marines are concentrated on shooting the umbraed + carapaced onos, leaving fades and skulks to rampage their flanks. If they direct their atk away from the onos, then the onos can just go up and gore them to death by the time the skulks are killed.
As for a CC dropping right in front of an Onos, its true that most of the time they get killed. But the reason is that the player panics, instead of either trying to go around or just jump crouching immediately, they keep running into it and not performing their crouch-jump correctly. With umbra, the onos basically has all the time in world to jump over the CC. It all comes down to reaction time and experience. Plus to have the CC dropped right in front of the Onos actually takes quite some commanding skill since he's juggling a lot of other things at that point of the game.
<!--QuoteBegin-crisano+Sep 29 2004, 04:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (crisano @ Sep 29 2004, 04:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> To be honest, if you go Carapace Onos, you shouldn't have retreat at all in the back of your mind. A carapace onos with a lerk constantly giving it umbra plus a blinking fade can pretty much tear up the marine base, with its new armor boost. I have yet to see a carapace onos die to 5-6 marines with umbra coverage and a fade providing swipe support. With a couple of leaping skulks, the domination becomes even more lopsided because chances are, the marines are concentrated on shooting the umbraed + carapaced onos, leaving fades and skulks to rampage their flanks. If they direct their atk away from the onos, then the onos can just go up and gore them to death by the time the skulks are killed.
As for a CC dropping right in front of an Onos, its true that most of the time they get killed. But the reason is that the player panics, instead of either trying to go around or just jump crouching immediately, they keep running into it and not performing their crouch-jump correctly. With umbra, the onos basically has all the time in world to jump over the CC. It all comes down to reaction time and experience. Plus to have the CC dropped right in front of the Onos actually takes quite some commanding skill since he's juggling a lot of other things at that point of the game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If the ceiling is low, Onos can't jump over the comm chair.
Well I don't think they can jump over it at all, I haven't tried to jump over one in awile, but I do know that when I place place a comm chair down, the onos always dies.
<!--QuoteBegin-jammno+Sep 30 2004, 09:46 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (jammno @ Sep 30 2004, 09:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well I don't think they can jump over it at all, I haven't tried to jump over one in awile, but I do know that when I place place a comm chair down, the onos always dies. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm pretty sure Onos can jump over CCs unless they changed it for Beta 5, but I remember being able to jump over CCs in the hallway of port engine hive on ns_nancy, I'm pretty sure you can jump over CCs in the hallways of sat comm on ns_tanith.
As for when you CC block an onos, it always dies. I hate to say it but the blame certainly isn't on the commander or exploits, it's bad alien teamwork. I'm sure you're talking about this happening in pubs and in pubs, teamwork is a rare find. It's just something players should adapt to but instead they choose to complain loudly, killing off another effective and rarely used strategy.
Edit: Add-on that isn't a reply to Jammno's quote. Also, the new rules made by the devs state that CC blocking hallways and stuff is still legal, as long as its not next to an alien. I don't see how this will help or change anything. The only difference between blocking early before the Onos gets there and blocking in front of the Onos is the Onos's player's reaction time. If he has faster reaction time, he could crouch jump over it when he doesn't panic. It's just another thing that is starting to limit players, basically capping skills and reaction time which is important in a FPS game, showing that you don't have to get better at games, we'll make it easier and less challenging.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The problem is according to the ruling by the devteam, you could simply drop 2 ccs in the doorway when no onos are in base and its not an exploit, because you're preventing them from easy access to an area. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats not really a problem.. its what the ruling says. Noone disagrees with that, unless I'm missing something in your comment. Blocking a corridor in advance is a-ok.
As to the teamwork issue, you don't always have umbra support, and umbra doesn't protect against everything. CC blocking doesn't always happen either, but its still taken as an exploit, regardless of frequency.
The only issue I have is how it's considered an exploit.
Lets say an onos runs into your base, according to the dev rules, if you drop a CC in the hallway it came in from, its okay as long as the onos isn't near it. So while the onos charges into your base and starts doing damage, its okay to drop a CC to block off its possible escape routes. But its an EXPLOIT if you delay the drop, dropping it when the onos is running away. I don't see a big difference between dropping a CC 10 seconds in advance compared to 1 second in advance. It's still trying to impede the Onos's retreat, the only minor difference is that the Onos player will need to react a little faster to the 1 second warning.
It's just stuff like this that isn't necessary, making a small rule about when its okay to blocked hallways with a CC. I mean if the game is bugged where it lets you drop a CC 'IN' an Onos, making his model get stuck, then yeah it's definately an exploit since he has no chance of movement or escaping. But other than that, it shouldn't be considered and exploit due to timing of the drop.
ZunniThe best thing to happen to I&S in a long whileJoin Date: 2002-11-26Member: 10016Members
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm pretty sure they didn't solidify mines to let marines use mine ladders, it was just a byproduct of creative people seeing an opportunity to do something else with what they had and exploring it. I think solidifying the mines was as TOmekki, making it so you can't stack mines, thereby making Fade/Onos traps with a few packs of mines.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If the dev team say they're ok then they can't really be counted as "opposed" to the game concept, imho. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's very true and I agree, but I think the main argument here is that the devs have been either getting one-sided info or the wrong impression of a strategy. Thus changing a viable and ingenious strat into an exploit. From personal experience, I've only seen CC blocking used in say 1 in 25 pugs/scrims/matches that I've played in, maybe even less than that. On public servers that allow CC blocking, even less and its because not all commanders have CC blocking in the forefront of their mind. Sometimes things are just so bottled up that the commander is usually too busy with other plans and saving his marines, juggling between saving base, saving his RTs, setting up an offensive outpost and only rarely does the idea of CC blocking flash into his brain that he can use it effectively. The strategy of CC blocking was just blown out of proportion, a lot of the lesser skilled public players start screaming exploit and unfair because one skilled commander was able to CC block their res****d onos to death when they try to attack marine base by themselves without support. People believe ramboing marines should be penalized, why not ramboing onoses.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Initial statement, i have missed 5 pages of this discussion, I'll catch up, I promise.
Ramboing marines have no penalty except for when they meet that fade around the corner, and often ninjas are the keys to winning (at the moment in clan matches sneaking a phase into the hive is commonplace but you know that)
Lots of things in the game are determined to be exploitive (maps fixing areas where bilebomb can go through a floor for example, or places where you can build outside the map) and these are fixed with nary a whisper, as it is, I simply gave the community a heads up that this is something else to watch out for, that for those frustrated by it, we recognized it as an exploit and we will be moving towards a fix that's all..
We fixed a few exploits last patch (building on RT's being one of them) and not one person said a word about it. Side note that also happened 1 game out of 25, did it make it any less lame or any less of an exploit? No.. Look at diseases Aids affects 1 out of 100,000 (I have no clue but unless its 1 out of 10 the point still stands) people so does this mean we shoudln't look for solutions to that problem??
I'm confused, I did this because the community for SOOOO long was screaming that they had no clue what the devs were doing/thinking and so I take the opportunity to specifically mention something that is has been discussed in dev circles publically so people will know the direction we are headed in, and I stirred up this storm of poo-poo.. Now to be fair some people are still upset about blockscripts and that's OK, but grinding that axe here makes no sense... TBH, I had a whole suite of these planned, to clear up confusion on a meriad of different topics but now I see no matter what we come up with people are going to complain about it, so why bother... We'll just change the game and let people moan afterwards, at least there won't be continued moaning until we release.
I've yet to see a reason beyond it screws over onos's and allows the marines a much easier path, to not do this.. People who complain about it seem to be complaining for complaining sakes.. Is it a skill to mash the CC shortcut right next to a retreating onos moving your mouse as he retreats?? I really don't think so....
<!--QuoteBegin-Zunni+Sep 30 2004, 02:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zunni @ Sep 30 2004, 02:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm confused, I did this because the community for SOOOO long was screaming that they had no clue what the devs were doing/thinking and so I take the opportunity to specifically mention something that is has been discussed in dev circles publically so people will know the direction we are headed in, and I stirred up this storm of poo-poo.. Now to be fair some people are still upset about blockscripts and that's OK, but grinding that axe here makes no sense... TBH, I had a whole suite of these planned, to clear up confusion on a meriad of different topics but now I see no matter what we come up with people are going to complain about it, so why bother... We'll just change the game and let people moan afterwards, at least there won't be continued moaning until we release. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Zunni, we're not complaining about getting information ahead of time of what's happening. What we're complaining about, atleast from what I've been reading and getting the sense of, is how the devs are determining what is okay to implement and consider an exploit and what is not. To us, some things doesn't seem to be necessary to be removed or implemented, such as blockscripts or CC blocking. I mean keeping people informed is great and should be continued, don't take these complaints as doing something against what you're doing. But shouldn't we get a chance to point out what we think could be faults in logic or reasoning behind big changes that could come out in the next patches?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I've yet to see a reason beyond it screws over onos's and allows the marines a much easier path, to not do this.. People who complain about it seem to be complaining for complaining sakes.. Is it a skill to mash the CC shortcut right next to a retreating onos moving your mouse as he retreats?? I really don't think so....<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The reason is because in competitive games like this, sometimes you need to take the extra measure to kill a skilled Onos who has a good team to complement him. I can't tell you how many times in a competitive game, an Onos and a good lerk + skulk support tear marine offensive outposts to pieces without much risk to itself. With CC blocking, it gives marines a chance to eliminate a major threat. In intense games like those which happen frequently in competitive play, CC blocking is another crucial tool that can determine a win or a loss.
It's probably not seen as much in pub play since closely competitive play can be seen where you need to go the extreme, seems like Onoses and fades are a lot easier to kill in pubs than in pugs/scrims/matches. Even with CC blocking, the Onos and fade still escape most of the time in competitive, but we manage to scare it away, buying more time. In pub play, there is a lot less teamwork and average team skill so it may seem more abusive but it really isn't. Plus 90% of the servers out there have some server rule against CC blocking which is fine IMO, but it shouldn't require a major game play change.
As for blockscripts, that's another story. But like your question about why screw Onos over with CC blocking, why screw competitive players over by implementing blockscripts which is leading to good players who use some scripts be portrayed as evil hackers by most of the uninformed players of NS. I'm just afraid more ideas like that will be implemented without a further understanding or discussion with the devs.
Its all going to come to a head now, joy <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Its going to boil down to who decides what an exploit is.
Anyhow, I think its great we're told the changes, its just a bummer that human nature means people will divide into factions and argue the relative merits.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What we're complaining about.. is how the devs are determining what is okay to implement and consider an exploit and what is not <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And no offence here, I honestly think that part of the devs job IS to decide what to implement and consider...
ZunniThe best thing to happen to I&S in a long whileJoin Date: 2002-11-26Member: 10016Members
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's probably not seen as much in pub play since closely competitive play can be seen where you need to go the extreme, seems like Onoses and fades are a lot easier to kill in pubs than in pugs/scrims/matches. Even with CC blocking, the Onos and fade still escape most of the time in competitive, but we manage to scare it away, buying more time. In pub play, there is a lot less teamwork and average team skill so it may seem more abusive but it really isn't. Plus 90% of the servers out there have some server rule against CC blocking which is fine IMO, but it shouldn't require a major game play change. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Funny, I've played 3 seasons of CAL, for FFT, RR, and now OBS and have never seen this used either by us or against us.
Don't confuse me for a person who strictly pubs, I've scrimmed cri, exigent, dn', terror, blackmarket, and other top clans.. I have also scrimmed other clans, and have pugged..
But I see it happen in pubs once in a while and in pugs a fair bit (when I get to play)
If you are unable in a competitive environment to beat an Onos without CC blocking perhaps there needs to be additional strategies developed by your team.
The hard fact is every thing in this game, has some sort of counter from cloaking to silence.. CC blocking has NONE.. if placed correctly an ONOS is delayed where he ordinarilly wouldn't have been.. There is no counter-skill to save the Onos the delay.
There is no issue (atm) with blocking each doorway in advance of an ONOS leaving, so perhaps that's the strat to look at, but if there are balance issues that require an unstoppable "fix" then there are other changes that need to be made imo..
<!--QuoteBegin-Necrosis+Sep 30 2004, 02:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Sep 30 2004, 02:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And no offence here, I honestly think that part of the devs job IS to decide what to implement and consider... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah I know it's their job and I agree with it, but I think good devs of any good game will listen to a lot more input than try to implement changes with their own vision and reasonings, no? I mean if I made a game, I would have my vision of changes, the dev's input on my vision, as well as the players of the game who are experienced and basically knows the ins-outs of the game. The more input on controversial issues like CC blocking and blockscripts, the better. Stuff that is clear cut like multiple RT drop exploit, yeah you don't really need input on that.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zunni+Sep 30 2004, 03:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zunni @ Sep 30 2004, 03:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Funny, I've played 3 seasons of CAL, for FFT, RR, and now OBS and have never seen this used either by us or against us.
The hard fact is every thing in this game, has some sort of counter from cloaking to silence.. CC blocking has NONE.. if placed correctly an ONOS is delayed where he ordinarilly wouldn't have been.. There is no counter-skill to save the Onos the delay. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That's the thing, it's a rarely used strategy that is only used when commanders have spare resources to drop out. I don't know why it should be considered an abusive exploit by something that isn't widely used. I know people say oh you can sell it and it would cost basically nothing but in the time that it takes to sell the CC, it could be spent on much needed siege cannon, guns, whatever. Seconds matter in this game. It's more of a cost vs time issue than a counter.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There is no issue (atm) with blocking each doorway in advance of an ONOS leaving, so perhaps that's the strat to look at, but if there are balance issues that require an unstoppable "fix" then there are other changes that need to be made imo..<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's the thing I don't get. Dropipng CCs in hallways and doorways ahead of the onos delays it just the same as dropping it in front of the onos. Hell, if you drop it in front of an onos in a big room, he'll just run around it so what is the point of that. People drop it in front of Onoses in doorways and hallways most of the time because it suddenly comes to their mind, oh let me try to slow down the onos! I don't think most commanders have CC blocking in the front burner of their mind when they see an Onos, its more of a spur of the moment thing, like a lightbulb suddenly blinking on.
And in my opinion, the onos will be delayed just the same whether the CC was placed earlier or later, maybe half a second more delay at most since if you can crouch jump the first two times by a surprise CC, I doubt you'll crouch jump successfully by one that's placed with a few seconds of warning.
ZunniThe best thing to happen to I&S in a long whileJoin Date: 2002-11-26Member: 10016Members
edited September 2004
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Zunni+Sep 30 2004, 03:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zunni @ Sep 30 2004, 03:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Funny, I've played 3 seasons of CAL, for FFT, RR, and now OBS and have never seen this used either by us or against us.
The hard fact is every thing in this game, has some sort of counter from cloaking to silence.. CC blocking has NONE.. if placed correctly an ONOS is delayed where he ordinarilly wouldn't have been.. There is no counter-skill to save the Onos the delay. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's the thing, it's a rarely used strategy that is only used when commanders have spare resources to drop out. I don't know why it should be considered an abusive exploit by something that isn't widely used. I know people say oh you can sell it and it would cost basically nothing but in the time that it takes to sell the CC, it could be spent on much needed siege cannon, guns, whatever. Seconds matter in this game. It's more of a cost vs time issue than a counter.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it costs a few res to do it and if you have the res to try it, you aren't hurting for RT's so it comes back in spades. A 4 res long term investment vs. a 75 res creature seems pretty easy to see why it would be used..
The big problem is that most clans don't have the res.. If marines are swimming in res, then they should be winning the tech war and have that game basically sown up, ESPECIALLY in a clan situation.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There is no issue (atm) with blocking each doorway in advance of an ONOS leaving, so perhaps that's the strat to look at, but if there are balance issues that require an unstoppable "fix" then there are other changes that need to be made imo..<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's the thing I don't get. Dropipng CCs in hallways and doorways ahead of the onos delays it just the same as dropping it in front of the onos. Hell, if you drop it in front of an onos in a big room, he'll just run around it so what is the point of that. People drop it in front of Onoses in doorways and hallways most of the time because it suddenly comes to their mind, oh let me try to slow down the onos! I don't think most commanders have CC blocking in the front burner of their mind when they see an Onos, its more of a spur of the moment thing, like a lightbulb suddenly blinking on. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is not really the problem, because if dropped correctly, the onos has to navigate over it, and if he has the skill, then he shouldn't be slowed down at all. That's the difference..
The situation I'm referring to is dropping it so close the onos that he has 0 reaction time to it... So he's a) surprised and that causes a weird reaction, and b) can't possibly react to it in time..
Again, as I stated, if used properly, there is a counter, the crouch jump, if placed so close to the onos that he has 0 reacition to it, what is the counter then?
As to your last point, there's now another skill clan people can practice <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> crouch jumping in preparation of a dropped CC, so start working on getting your reaction time up <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
ZunniThe best thing to happen to I&S in a long whileJoin Date: 2002-11-26Member: 10016Members
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm not talking about concept, I'm talking about balance. I don't know how you pulled vision or concept out of that. You're off the mark here. All great games are balanced out by the best players. Magic: The Gathering is a wonderful example of a company using its best and brightest players to balance out the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And MTG is a single player game, a new player doesn't ruin the game for others..
Any multi-player team-based game uses either public betas (See: SOF2) or closed betas with different levels of players (see: any of Atari's/Sid Meiers Betas) so they can simulate a real-world environment in terms of balance etc..
<!--QuoteBegin-Zunni+Sep 30 2004, 01:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zunni @ Sep 30 2004, 01:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm confused, I did this because the community for SOOOO long was screaming that they had no clue what the devs were doing/thinking and so I take the opportunity to specifically mention something that is has been discussed in dev circles publically so people will know the direction we are headed in, and I stirred up this storm of poo-poo.. Now to be fair some people are still upset about blockscripts and that's OK, but grinding that axe here makes no sense... TBH, I had a whole suite of these planned, to clear up confusion on a meriad of different topics but now I see no matter what we come up with people are going to complain about it, so why bother... We'll just change the game and let people moan afterwards, at least there won't be continued moaning until we release. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> He's talking about a converstion between the two of us where I was trying to encouage him to make certain important announcements.
You are making is harder for me to make a case that you moaners are few and the majoity is understanding and wants to teamwork what would be best for NS. I really appreactiate the lightfeet leg cutting, gee thanks Necrosis. (and others)
You don't want to end up in a realtionship where the community and the admins can't communicate. Don't become another Knight Online. Damnit! Appreciate how much you have.
Let the devs share the important information, don't b1tch about it! Act! Make an idea, make a pluggin.
<!--QuoteBegin-x5+Sep 30 2004, 04:01 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (x5 @ Sep 30 2004, 04:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Let the devs share the important information, don't b1tch about it! Act! Make an idea, make a pluggin. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Perhaps you don't see it or choose not to read, but some of us aren't out there bitching and moaning as you put it. We try to create a discussion the changes that are being made tha could change some style of gameplay and strategy. If you don't have anything to add or don't understand what we are talking about, I suggest you add zero input. No one was bitching at what Zunni is doing, I haven't heard one person who said anything about Zunni sharing information is bad. Some of us just like to talk about the changes, get a better understanding on why they are being made. Maybe some players don't mind not knowing the reason behind the major changes, some of us do.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Just lock this thread someone. We aren't here to entertain the forum trolls. You llama punks don't appreciate how much you have. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're looking more like a troll trying to bash people who are talking about the topic. Stop trying to brown-nose your way into the devs without understanding what's being talked about.
But I have sent three arguments trying to convince that the overwhelming majority wants what is best for NS and I'm trying to open a more fluid line of communication between the admins/GMs/devs/whatever and the clients of the community.
Its understandable to be fustrated at stuff like this. And I doubt that there are many NS players out there who don't want what's best for the game and its advancement. The reason why these heated discussions occur is because 'what is best' is definately not seen in the same light. Though I prefer more open discussion so people can agree upon what is best of each topic, it usually comes down to that same division of clanners vs non-clanners, something the NS community seems to have morphed into. If you can solve that problem of separation, then a lot more problems can be solved easily.
Sometimes the overwhelming majority can be wrong, like the issue on scripting, it seems a big majority saw it as something super evil, thus creating a major dispute. People thinking bhop scrips bhop for you, etc, don't want to get into it here though. I say just let discussions go as they will, I'm sure the forum admins will block out posts that are inappropriate, etc.
Erm, I don't know what's going on with co_ and ns_. I don't play combat that much and when I do, I don't have a problem with it. Combat is just a practice field for me to keep my fade skill as the above average level and to try to keep my aim sharp.
Co is supposed to be a fast, team deathmatch type of practice for clan scrims or for newbies to learn how the play the game before going on to the complex ns_ maps.
Because Flayra (yes it's Charlie's fault) decided to push for quick co_ games and forgot to seperate them from the good ol' ns_ games, he effectively killed the "epic war" of NS somehow. Powershifts which were once common are getting more unusual. We now have a linear gameplay where who ever gets the lead first will win. The community has shown that it doesn't like this at all and longs for the ns_ maps to have that legendary feel back.
Institue a line of seperations ar the varibles, having different values for co_ and ns_ and we can have both modes to their ideal. It really is foolish to think you can have a game with the same varible setting for both modes and result in two contrasting gameplay types.
Since co_ is not going away, although /me hands money to Talesin to make it magically "disappear" I suggest we break them apart a little on the areas that conflict and fix the res system as I have suggest many a time to result in two highly enjoyable game types for everyone. An then the clanies and the pubies and what have you will all be like yay.
But this isn't going to happen until I can break down mistrust between the devs and the clients to a point lower than where is is currently where we can easily teamwork with one another.
<!--QuoteBegin-x5+Sep 30 2004, 04:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (x5 @ Sep 30 2004, 04:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Institue a line of seperations ar the varibles, having different values for co_ and ns_ and we can have both modes to their ideal. It really is foolish to think you can have a game with the same varible setting for both modes and result in two contrasting gameplay types.
...I suggest we break them apart a little on the areas that conflict and fix the res system as I have suggest many a time to result in two highly enjoyable game types for everyone. An then the clanies and the pubies and what have you will all be like yay. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Ok What variables exactly? Damage? Surely you can't expect (for sake of example,) the LMG to do different damages in NS to CO?
*NSplayer after 3 months of training CO and migrating to NS* "I gave that skulk the whole 8 bullets required to killit!!11"
:\
Change upgrades? Focus is powerful in CO but next to useless in NS. (Well, less useful than any DC upgrade and most of the MC upgrades.) Would you replace that? How would new players react to this? Why train in CO for a gameplay in NS that is fundamentally different?
--
The only thing wrong with the res system is how it borks when the teams are not 6v6. That should (hah, should,) effect clans and pubs equally. (But when was the last time you played in a 6v6 pub match...)
Clan and pub play the same?! That's never going to happen. Ever. It's mind blowingly impossible. The game is different on so many levels it isn't even funny. A perfectly valid strat in one is laughable in the other. (Elec rush, cc blocking, relocating, turrets...). The same applies to the alien game, but a little less so as there is generally less options for advanced strats due to the difficulty in truely co-ordinating the team.
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I'm for CC blocking. If the marines want to waste res trying to block me, that's fine by me. Same applies to medspam.
CC WALLS are a different matter. (Includes ccs that block vents.)
TheAdjHe demanded a cool forum title of some type.Join Date: 2004-05-03Member: 28436Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-Zunni+Sep 30 2004, 02:26 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zunni @ Sep 30 2004, 02:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And MTG is a single player game, a new player doesn't ruin the game for others..
Any multi-player team-based game uses either public betas (See: SOF2) or closed betas with different levels of players (see: any of Atari's/Sid Meiers Betas) so they can simulate a real-world environment in terms of balance etc.. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> M:TG doesn't require teamwork because top games are 1v1, but the same could be said for most starcraft games. They simply have elements in them that have to be balanced. NS is unique in that the units become increasingly useful as the player is more skilled. Balance can never be achieved in a public environment (it can be generally achieved using stats over a long time, but not fine tuned), it can only be perfected that the top level. At the top level of NS, skill level is negligible, because everyone is close in terms of skill and teamwork. It comes down to balance and one side leveraging it's advantages against another.
Comments
Then what exactly was the point of solidifying the mines? I see no reason to have changed mines this way other than making ladders. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
edit: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->QUOTE (crisano @ Sep 28 2004, 01:31 PM)
Wouldn't building mine ladders and structure boosting be opposed to the game concept as well? But ingenius marines and commanders will put those two tactics into good use as well and it seems to be accepted since no one is whining about them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then what exactly was the point of solidifying the mines? I see no reason to have changed mines this way other than making ladders. tounge.gif<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i think its either solid mines that can be made to ladders, or the 2.0 way - two dozen mines can be dropped at the same spot, and you never now how many there actually are =/
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If the dev team say they're ok then they can't really be counted as "opposed" to the game concept, imho. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's very true and I agree, but I think the main argument here is that the devs have been either getting one-sided info or the wrong impression of a strategy. Thus changing a viable and ingenious strat into an exploit. From personal experience, I've only seen CC blocking used in say 1 in 25 pugs/scrims/matches that I've played in, maybe even less than that. On public servers that allow CC blocking, even less and its because not all commanders have CC blocking in the forefront of their mind. Sometimes things are just so bottled up that the commander is usually too busy with other plans and saving his marines, juggling between saving base, saving his RTs, setting up an offensive outpost and only rarely does the idea of CC blocking flash into his brain that he can use it effectively. The strategy of CC blocking was just blown out of proportion, a lot of the lesser skilled public players start screaming exploit and unfair because one skilled commander was able to CC block their res****d onos to death when they try to attack marine base by themselves without support. People believe ramboing marines should be penalized, why not ramboing onoses.
The fact that something is or is not hard to do doesn't stop it being any less of an exploit. I don't believe its a "skill" issue. Secondly, a hoarder onos is generally a dumb player and thus CC blocking isn't going to make it any easier to kill him. CC blocking becomes annoying at mid-end game when fades and the first real onos are on their way to base, rush in with full hitpoints, leave with about half, then get caught on a CC and shot to death. And even in endgame situations you will get poor commanders who spend time trying to drop CC on any alien they can find "just because".
I don't think this fix is coming about because really poor players don't like getting blocked.
In the endgame cases you talk about, I've seen it happen a few times but that just annoys the aliens, it never changed the outcome which was a marine loss. It's the mentality the aliens have in pubs right now that if marines turtle in base, it's really hard to rout them which isn't true. Players are afraid to charge in these days and just tear it up, usually when they run in and start to get shot, they quickly try to run away to live again. That's usually because they don't have a team backing them up and just the wrong type of strategy. When they can't run away because they get strategically blocked, then they get all pissy and whiney. Instead if they had the team's support, they could've either killed the base or have taken down key stuctures aka arms lab, adv. armory, what have you.
This exploit drags the game out unnecessarily and allows woefully outclassed marines to put aliens in a bizarre strategic position. Especially when you have to consider that some players go for carapace and as a result MUST leave the marine base in order to find DCs or Gorges.
An alien player runs into MS and starts doing damage at endgame, the rines shoot back, he gets to around 50% health and decides to run. CC appears, blocks him, he dies. If he'd seen the CC on the way in, then he'd have fled with more health. If he'd seen it in the corridor on his way out then he'd be ready to crouch jump. If it magically appears under his nose then he's going to be stalled, and if he has any team mates then they're going to squish against the CC Three Stooges style.
Its really about much much more than very earlygame hoarder Onos.
The fact that something is or is not hard to do doesn't stop it being any less of an exploit. I don't believe its a "skill" issue. Secondly, a hoarder onos is generally a dumb player and thus CC blocking isn't going to make it any easier to kill him. CC blocking becomes annoying at mid-end game when fades and the first real onos are on their way to base, rush in with full hitpoints, leave with about half, then get caught on a CC and shot to death. And even in endgame situations you will get poor commanders who spend time trying to drop CC on any alien they can find "just because".
I don't think this fix is coming about because really poor players don't like getting blocked. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is according to the ruling by the devteam, you could simply drop 2 ccs in the doorway when no onos are in base and its not an exploit, because you're preventing them from easy access to an area.
As for a CC dropping right in front of an Onos, its true that most of the time they get killed. But the reason is that the player panics, instead of either trying to go around or just jump crouching immediately, they keep running into it and not performing their crouch-jump correctly. With umbra, the onos basically has all the time in world to jump over the CC. It all comes down to reaction time and experience. Plus to have the CC dropped right in front of the Onos actually takes quite some commanding skill since he's juggling a lot of other things at that point of the game.
As for a CC dropping right in front of an Onos, its true that most of the time they get killed. But the reason is that the player panics, instead of either trying to go around or just jump crouching immediately, they keep running into it and not performing their crouch-jump correctly. With umbra, the onos basically has all the time in world to jump over the CC. It all comes down to reaction time and experience. Plus to have the CC dropped right in front of the Onos actually takes quite some commanding skill since he's juggling a lot of other things at that point of the game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the ceiling is low, Onos can't jump over the comm chair.
Well I don't think they can jump over it at all, I haven't tried to jump over one in awile, but I do know that when I place place a comm chair down, the onos always dies.
I'm pretty sure Onos can jump over CCs unless they changed it for Beta 5, but I remember being able to jump over CCs in the hallway of port engine hive on ns_nancy, I'm pretty sure you can jump over CCs in the hallways of sat comm on ns_tanith.
As for when you CC block an onos, it always dies. I hate to say it but the blame certainly isn't on the commander or exploits, it's bad alien teamwork. I'm sure you're talking about this happening in pubs and in pubs, teamwork is a rare find. It's just something players should adapt to but instead they choose to complain loudly, killing off another effective and rarely used strategy.
Edit: Add-on that isn't a reply to Jammno's quote.
Also, the new rules made by the devs state that CC blocking hallways and stuff is still legal, as long as its not next to an alien. I don't see how this will help or change anything. The only difference between blocking early before the Onos gets there and blocking in front of the Onos is the Onos's player's reaction time. If he has faster reaction time, he could crouch jump over it when he doesn't panic. It's just another thing that is starting to limit players, basically capping skills and reaction time which is important in a FPS game, showing that you don't have to get better at games, we'll make it easier and less challenging.
The problem is according to the ruling by the devteam, you could simply drop 2 ccs in the doorway when no onos are in base and its not an exploit, because you're preventing them from easy access to an area.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats not really a problem.. its what the ruling says. Noone disagrees with that, unless I'm missing something in your comment. Blocking a corridor in advance is a-ok.
As to the teamwork issue, you don't always have umbra support, and umbra doesn't protect against everything. CC blocking doesn't always happen either, but its still taken as an exploit, regardless of frequency.
Lets say an onos runs into your base, according to the dev rules, if you drop a CC in the hallway it came in from, its okay as long as the onos isn't near it. So while the onos charges into your base and starts doing damage, its okay to drop a CC to block off its possible escape routes. But its an EXPLOIT if you delay the drop, dropping it when the onos is running away. I don't see a big difference between dropping a CC 10 seconds in advance compared to 1 second in advance. It's still trying to impede the Onos's retreat, the only minor difference is that the Onos player will need to react a little faster to the 1 second warning.
It's just stuff like this that isn't necessary, making a small rule about when its okay to blocked hallways with a CC. I mean if the game is bugged where it lets you drop a CC 'IN' an Onos, making his model get stuck, then yeah it's definately an exploit since he has no chance of movement or escaping. But other than that, it shouldn't be considered and exploit due to timing of the drop.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If the dev team say they're ok then they can't really be counted as "opposed" to the game concept, imho. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's very true and I agree, but I think the main argument here is that the devs have been either getting one-sided info or the wrong impression of a strategy. Thus changing a viable and ingenious strat into an exploit. From personal experience, I've only seen CC blocking used in say 1 in 25 pugs/scrims/matches that I've played in, maybe even less than that. On public servers that allow CC blocking, even less and its because not all commanders have CC blocking in the forefront of their mind. Sometimes things are just so bottled up that the commander is usually too busy with other plans and saving his marines, juggling between saving base, saving his RTs, setting up an offensive outpost and only rarely does the idea of CC blocking flash into his brain that he can use it effectively. The strategy of CC blocking was just blown out of proportion, a lot of the lesser skilled public players start screaming exploit and unfair because one skilled commander was able to CC block their res****d onos to death when they try to attack marine base by themselves without support. People believe ramboing marines should be penalized, why not ramboing onoses.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Initial statement, i have missed 5 pages of this discussion, I'll catch up, I promise.
Ramboing marines have no penalty except for when they meet that fade around the corner, and often ninjas are the keys to winning (at the moment in clan matches sneaking a phase into the hive is commonplace but you know that)
Lots of things in the game are determined to be exploitive (maps fixing areas where bilebomb can go through a floor for example, or places where you can build outside the map) and these are fixed with nary a whisper, as it is, I simply gave the community a heads up that this is something else to watch out for, that for those frustrated by it, we recognized it as an exploit and we will be moving towards a fix that's all..
We fixed a few exploits last patch (building on RT's being one of them) and not one person said a word about it. Side note that also happened 1 game out of 25, did it make it any less lame or any less of an exploit? No.. Look at diseases Aids affects 1 out of 100,000 (I have no clue but unless its 1 out of 10 the point still stands) people so does this mean we shoudln't look for solutions to that problem??
I'm confused, I did this because the community for SOOOO long was screaming that they had no clue what the devs were doing/thinking and so I take the opportunity to specifically mention something that is has been discussed in dev circles publically so people will know the direction we are headed in, and I stirred up this storm of poo-poo.. Now to be fair some people are still upset about blockscripts and that's OK, but grinding that axe here makes no sense... TBH, I had a whole suite of these planned, to clear up confusion on a meriad of different topics but now I see no matter what we come up with people are going to complain about it, so why bother... We'll just change the game and let people moan afterwards, at least there won't be continued moaning until we release.
I've yet to see a reason beyond it screws over onos's and allows the marines a much easier path, to not do this.. People who complain about it seem to be complaining for complaining sakes.. Is it a skill to mash the CC shortcut right next to a retreating onos moving your mouse as he retreats?? I really don't think so....
Zunni, we're not complaining about getting information ahead of time of what's happening. What we're complaining about, atleast from what I've been reading and getting the sense of, is how the devs are determining what is okay to implement and consider an exploit and what is not. To us, some things doesn't seem to be necessary to be removed or implemented, such as blockscripts or CC blocking. I mean keeping people informed is great and should be continued, don't take these complaints as doing something against what you're doing. But shouldn't we get a chance to point out what we think could be faults in logic or reasoning behind big changes that could come out in the next patches?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I've yet to see a reason beyond it screws over onos's and allows the marines a much easier path, to not do this.. People who complain about it seem to be complaining for complaining sakes.. Is it a skill to mash the CC shortcut right next to a retreating onos moving your mouse as he retreats?? I really don't think so....<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The reason is because in competitive games like this, sometimes you need to take the extra measure to kill a skilled Onos who has a good team to complement him. I can't tell you how many times in a competitive game, an Onos and a good lerk + skulk support tear marine offensive outposts to pieces without much risk to itself. With CC blocking, it gives marines a chance to eliminate a major threat. In intense games like those which happen frequently in competitive play, CC blocking is another crucial tool that can determine a win or a loss.
It's probably not seen as much in pub play since closely competitive play can be seen where you need to go the extreme, seems like Onoses and fades are a lot easier to kill in pubs than in pugs/scrims/matches. Even with CC blocking, the Onos and fade still escape most of the time in competitive, but we manage to scare it away, buying more time. In pub play, there is a lot less teamwork and average team skill so it may seem more abusive but it really isn't. Plus 90% of the servers out there have some server rule against CC blocking which is fine IMO, but it shouldn't require a major game play change.
As for blockscripts, that's another story. But like your question about why screw Onos over with CC blocking, why screw competitive players over by implementing blockscripts which is leading to good players who use some scripts be portrayed as evil hackers by most of the uninformed players of NS. I'm just afraid more ideas like that will be implemented without a further understanding or discussion with the devs.
Its going to boil down to who decides what an exploit is.
Anyhow, I think its great we're told the changes, its just a bummer that human nature means people will divide into factions and argue the relative merits.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
What we're complaining about.. is how the devs are determining what is okay to implement and consider an exploit and what is not
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And no offence here, I honestly think that part of the devs job IS to decide what to implement and consider...
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Funny, I've played 3 seasons of CAL, for FFT, RR, and now OBS and have never seen this used either by us or against us.
Don't confuse me for a person who strictly pubs, I've scrimmed cri, exigent, dn', terror, blackmarket, and other top clans.. I have also scrimmed other clans, and have pugged..
But I see it happen in pubs once in a while and in pugs a fair bit (when I get to play)
If you are unable in a competitive environment to beat an Onos without CC blocking perhaps there needs to be additional strategies developed by your team.
The hard fact is every thing in this game, has some sort of counter from cloaking to silence.. CC blocking has NONE.. if placed correctly an ONOS is delayed where he ordinarilly wouldn't have been.. There is no counter-skill to save the Onos the delay.
There is no issue (atm) with blocking each doorway in advance of an ONOS leaving, so perhaps that's the strat to look at, but if there are balance issues that require an unstoppable "fix" then there are other changes that need to be made imo..
Yeah I know it's their job and I agree with it, but I think good devs of any good game will listen to a lot more input than try to implement changes with their own vision and reasonings, no? I mean if I made a game, I would have my vision of changes, the dev's input on my vision, as well as the players of the game who are experienced and basically knows the ins-outs of the game. The more input on controversial issues like CC blocking and blockscripts, the better. Stuff that is clear cut like multiple RT drop exploit, yeah you don't really need input on that.
The hard fact is every thing in this game, has some sort of counter from cloaking to silence.. CC blocking has NONE.. if placed correctly an ONOS is delayed where he ordinarilly wouldn't have been.. There is no counter-skill to save the Onos the delay. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's the thing, it's a rarely used strategy that is only used when commanders have spare resources to drop out. I don't know why it should be considered an abusive exploit by something that isn't widely used. I know people say oh you can sell it and it would cost basically nothing but in the time that it takes to sell the CC, it could be spent on much needed siege cannon, guns, whatever. Seconds matter in this game. It's more of a cost vs time issue than a counter.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There is no issue (atm) with blocking each doorway in advance of an ONOS leaving, so perhaps that's the strat to look at, but if there are balance issues that require an unstoppable "fix" then there are other changes that need to be made imo..<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's the thing I don't get. Dropipng CCs in hallways and doorways ahead of the onos delays it just the same as dropping it in front of the onos. Hell, if you drop it in front of an onos in a big room, he'll just run around it so what is the point of that. People drop it in front of Onoses in doorways and hallways most of the time because it suddenly comes to their mind, oh let me try to slow down the onos! I don't think most commanders have CC blocking in the front burner of their mind when they see an Onos, its more of a spur of the moment thing, like a lightbulb suddenly blinking on.
And in my opinion, the onos will be delayed just the same whether the CC was placed earlier or later, maybe half a second more delay at most since if you can crouch jump the first two times by a surprise CC, I doubt you'll crouch jump successfully by one that's placed with a few seconds of warning.
The hard fact is every thing in this game, has some sort of counter from cloaking to silence.. CC blocking has NONE.. if placed correctly an ONOS is delayed where he ordinarilly wouldn't have been.. There is no counter-skill to save the Onos the delay. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's the thing, it's a rarely used strategy that is only used when commanders have spare resources to drop out. I don't know why it should be considered an abusive exploit by something that isn't widely used. I know people say oh you can sell it and it would cost basically nothing but in the time that it takes to sell the CC, it could be spent on much needed siege cannon, guns, whatever. Seconds matter in this game. It's more of a cost vs time issue than a counter.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it costs a few res to do it and if you have the res to try it, you aren't hurting for RT's so it comes back in spades. A 4 res long term investment vs. a 75 res creature seems pretty easy to see why it would be used..
The big problem is that most clans don't have the res.. If marines are swimming in res, then they should be winning the tech war and have that game basically sown up, ESPECIALLY in a clan situation.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There is no issue (atm) with blocking each doorway in advance of an ONOS leaving, so perhaps that's the strat to look at, but if there are balance issues that require an unstoppable "fix" then there are other changes that need to be made imo..<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's the thing I don't get. Dropipng CCs in hallways and doorways ahead of the onos delays it just the same as dropping it in front of the onos. Hell, if you drop it in front of an onos in a big room, he'll just run around it so what is the point of that. People drop it in front of Onoses in doorways and hallways most of the time because it suddenly comes to their mind, oh let me try to slow down the onos! I don't think most commanders have CC blocking in the front burner of their mind when they see an Onos, its more of a spur of the moment thing, like a lightbulb suddenly blinking on.
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That is not really the problem, because if dropped correctly, the onos has to navigate over it, and if he has the skill, then he shouldn't be slowed down at all. That's the difference..
The situation I'm referring to is dropping it so close the onos that he has 0 reaction time to it... So he's a) surprised and that causes a weird reaction, and b) can't possibly react to it in time..
Again, as I stated, if used properly, there is a counter, the crouch jump, if placed so close to the onos that he has 0 reacition to it, what is the counter then?
As to your last point, there's now another skill clan people can practice <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> crouch jumping in preparation of a dropped CC, so start working on getting your reaction time up <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
And MTG is a single player game, a new player doesn't ruin the game for others..
Any multi-player team-based game uses either public betas (See: SOF2) or closed betas with different levels of players (see: any of Atari's/Sid Meiers Betas) so they can simulate a real-world environment in terms of balance etc..
He's talking about a converstion between the two of us where I was trying to encouage him to make certain important announcements.
You are making is harder for me to make a case that you moaners are few and the majoity is understanding and wants to teamwork what would be best for NS. I really appreactiate the lightfeet leg cutting, gee thanks Necrosis. (and others)
You don't want to end up in a realtionship where the community and the admins can't communicate. Don't become another Knight Online. Damnit! Appreciate how much you have.
Let the devs share the important information, don't b1tch about it! Act! Make an idea, make a pluggin.
Perhaps you don't see it or choose not to read, but some of us aren't out there bitching and moaning as you put it. We try to create a discussion the changes that are being made tha could change some style of gameplay and strategy. If you don't have anything to add or don't understand what we are talking about, I suggest you add zero input. No one was bitching at what Zunni is doing, I haven't heard one person who said anything about Zunni sharing information is bad. Some of us just like to talk about the changes, get a better understanding on why they are being made. Maybe some players don't mind not knowing the reason behind the major changes, some of us do.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Just lock this thread someone. We aren't here to entertain the forum trolls. You llama punks don't appreciate how much you have. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're looking more like a troll trying to bash people who are talking about the topic. Stop trying to brown-nose your way into the devs without understanding what's being talked about.
But I have sent three arguments trying to convince that the overwhelming majority wants what is best for NS and I'm trying to open a more fluid line of communication between the admins/GMs/devs/whatever and the clients of the community.
I'm getting frustrated obviously.
Sometimes the overwhelming majority can be wrong, like the issue on scripting, it seems a big majority saw it as something super evil, thus creating a major dispute. People thinking bhop scrips bhop for you, etc, don't want to get into it here though. I say just let discussions go as they will, I'm sure the forum admins will block out posts that are inappropriate, etc.
You can have slightly different values for varibles for both and the results would be huge.
Because Flayra (yes it's Charlie's fault) decided to push for quick co_ games and forgot to seperate them from the good ol' ns_ games, he effectively killed the "epic war" of NS somehow. Powershifts which were once common are getting more unusual. We now have a linear gameplay where who ever gets the lead first will win. The community has shown that it doesn't like this at all and longs for the ns_ maps to have that legendary feel back.
Institue a line of seperations ar the varibles, having different values for co_ and ns_ and we can have both modes to their ideal. It really is foolish to think you can have a game with the same varible setting for both modes and result in two contrasting gameplay types.
Since co_ is not going away, although /me hands money to Talesin to make it magically "disappear" I suggest we break them apart a little on the areas that conflict and fix the res system as I have suggest many a time to result in two highly enjoyable game types for everyone. An then the clanies and the pubies and what have you will all be like yay.
But this isn't going to happen until I can break down mistrust between the devs and the clients to a point lower than where is is currently where we can easily teamwork with one another.
Institue a line of seperations ar the varibles, having different values for co_ and ns_ and we can have both modes to their ideal. It really is foolish to think you can have a game with the same varible setting for both modes and result in two contrasting gameplay types.
...I suggest we break them apart a little on the areas that conflict and fix the res system as I have suggest many a time to result in two highly enjoyable game types for everyone. An then the clanies and the pubies and what have you will all be like yay.
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Ok
What variables exactly?
Damage?
Surely you can't expect (for sake of example,) the LMG to do different damages in NS to CO?
*NSplayer after 3 months of training CO and migrating to NS*
"I gave that skulk the whole 8 bullets required to killit!!11"
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Change upgrades?
Focus is powerful in CO but next to useless in NS. (Well, less useful than any DC upgrade and most of the MC upgrades.)
Would you replace that? How would new players react to this? Why train in CO for a gameplay in NS that is fundamentally different?
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The only thing wrong with the res system is how it borks when the teams are not 6v6. That should (hah, should,) effect clans and pubs equally. (But when was the last time you played in a 6v6 pub match...)
Clan and pub play the same?!
That's never going to happen. Ever. It's mind blowingly impossible. The game is different on so many levels it isn't even funny. A perfectly valid strat in one is laughable in the other. (Elec rush, cc blocking, relocating, turrets...).
The same applies to the alien game, but a little less so as there is generally less options for advanced strats due to the difficulty in truely co-ordinating the team.
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I'm for CC blocking. If the marines want to waste res trying to block me, that's fine by me. Same applies to medspam.
CC WALLS are a different matter. (Includes ccs that block vents.)
Any multi-player team-based game uses either public betas (See: SOF2) or closed betas with different levels of players (see: any of Atari's/Sid Meiers Betas) so they can simulate a real-world environment in terms of balance etc.. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
M:TG doesn't require teamwork because top games are 1v1, but the same could be said for most starcraft games. They simply have elements in them that have to be balanced. NS is unique in that the units become increasingly useful as the player is more skilled. Balance can never be achieved in a public environment (it can be generally achieved using stats over a long time, but not fine tuned), it can only be perfected that the top level. At the top level of NS, skill level is negligible, because everyone is close in terms of skill and teamwork. It comes down to balance and one side leveraging it's advantages against another.