<!--QuoteBegin-Thansal+Aug 21 2004, 11:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Thansal @ Aug 21 2004, 11:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ... and If I am properly trained in sometihng else I can disable the akido person before I can break a sweat.
nothing in unbeatable, everything has a counter.
If you want a MA form that is as close to unbeatable as is possible: Jeet Kune Do (JKD)
simply put: Take what works, reject what does not, and add what is specificly your own.
However even JKD is not unbeatable, because some one elses style could trounce mine.
Oh, and I wasn't refering to a mugging, I was refering to a guy with a gun, who wants you DEE EE DEE DEAD! (hehe <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->)
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well that's just the point - aikido is a martial art made completely of counters. That's right: there isn't a single offensive move in the entire art. Basically, one uses the energy thrown against them (in a punch, in an outthrusted knife, etc) and rather than blocking it, guide it in such a way that they can say, break an arm clean in half without and energy input of their own.
Aikido was a martial art practiced by the samurai, actually. It was specifically created to be uncounterable - because you can't counter a move that doesn't exist. The man who actually created it was basically undefeatable - he was able to defeat people trained in kung-fu, karate, what-have-you when he was 80 years old. And I'm not talking a single one - I'm talking a dozen at once.
It really sounds crazy, but I've seen some of the things one can do with aikido and they're in-freaking-credibly, mind-bendingly awesome.
P.S. HEY! IF YOU GET A SNIPER RIFLE I GET A NINJA. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
definitely knife. you'd be surprised how many skulk kills you can get. oh wait nm, this is off-topic <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
seriously though, Firewater is right... there's a lack of good advice here because almost no one is speaking from experience. And there's the martial art style elitism, which is just not accurate, and it seems like most people are treating the question like it's a video game, a "this beats that" situation.
Here my recap of what I thought was good advice:
1) If you don't have the time to enhance your own self-defense skills (you know someone's coming after you soon), then you need to call the POE-LEESE!!!
2) If you bring a knife and don't know how to use it, you'll probably end up getting stabbed.(regardless of permit issues)
3) If you bring a gun and you're not willing to use it/don't know how(there's more than pulling the trigger), you'll probably end up getting shot. (regardless of permit issues)
4) If you're serious about increasing your chances of survival in a situation like this, playing this question game won't help, but getting out there and taking courses, learning martial arts/self defense, and learning how to use weapons will.
7) OTHER PEOPLE. If You're traveling in a group, that's usually enough to deter most criminals- after all, they're looking for an easy mark. A group is harder to take down than a single person. Also, contact the authorities, after all-they're there to help.
All Martial Arts train for "real world" use. Trust me, I take jujitsu, the most well-rounded style, and they will explain to you "ok, you need to have this part of the arm straight for this block because if someone attacks you with x from above..." Get the picture? You also learn that if you are attacked, your first and only objective is to get out of that situation by getting out of any hold your attacker has you in, typically by inflicting pain of some sort.
Also, come on man, what will you be doing alone in a bad area at night?
Martial Arts is definitely your best bet though. Having a tool at your disposal that could be taken away from you takes away any advantage you might have. Also, Martial Arts gives you the confidence to be calm and think logically about a situation.
Martial Arts elitism eh? Not really. It's pretty obvious that having a trained and disciplined understanding of how to fight in any situation is going to give you an advantage that no can of pepper spray or Deagle can give yee. Any style of martial arts will be helpful to you, even Tai Chi. My sensei also teaches Aikido at our dojo, and I've heard from some people that it is a pretty awesome style to learn. Personally, I think any style is worth training in.
Edit* If you're thinking about going the pistol way, please go to a gun range and practice practice practice. When you hold that pistol, it should feel like a controlled extension of your arm.
If you want good self defense, find a good Martial Arts instructor who crosstrains. I've been a martial artist for well over ten years now, and my instructor is one of the greatest ive ever seen. His specialty is in Tae Kwon Do, but we learn everything from Judo to Hapkido. A section of the week is even dedicated to learning how to counter a real world scenerio (i.e. bubba buttcrack trying to mug you).
So, in short...if you want to be a pro at defending yourself, try to get into martial arts, and be sure to find a good instructor who is going to teach you how to defend yourself in real life. (If all else fails, move to Thailand and begin training in Muay Thai <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->)
Zig...I am Captain Planet!Join Date: 2002-10-23Member: 1576Members
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->there's a lack of good advice here because almost no one is speaking from experience.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<taken combat handgunning lessons?
and, for the people who so drastically underestimate the advantage that a pistol gives, in the hands of a trained user.. i pity you. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Firewater+Aug 22 2004, 07:37 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Firewater @ Aug 22 2004, 07:37 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'd suggest talking to local law enforcement, or some authority. Following the advice on this forum can potentially get you killed. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Slightly worrying, but I agree with FW on this one.
Kida, sorry to say so, but if you decide to do this 'on your own', you're getting yourself a one-way ticket to the gutter. Discuss the issue with the friend you helped, make clear that you fear you are <i>both</i> in grave danger, as you would be if what you said is true, then activate the authorities.
Zig...I am Captain Planet!Join Date: 2002-10-23Member: 1576Members
<!--QuoteBegin-uzi+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (uzi)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->and if you do get a firearm, I recommend the Springfield Armory XD in .40 s&w.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i happened to miss this: if you buy an XD, get it refinished unless you like your slide rusting.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zig+Aug 22 2004, 01:34 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zig @ Aug 22 2004, 01:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-TommyVercetti+Aug 21 2004, 08:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TommyVercetti @ Aug 21 2004, 08:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'd probably opt for the gun if I were in your position. Preferably something full-auto (no, the knifer is not beating that), but I have a feeling autos, especially small ones, are highly illegal. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> if that was sarcasm it was OVERLY subtle <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> No, I was saying that if it wasn't illegal and I knew someone was completely determined and had the patience to make a close-quarters attack on me I'd get something like a MAC-11 or Glock-18
<!--QuoteBegin-Talesin+Aug 21 2004, 11:22 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Talesin @ Aug 21 2004, 11:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A gun is still a worse weapon for close-fighting than a knife. It doesn't matter how well-trained you are... if someone with a knife is just as well-trained, the one with the gun will be on the ground and bleeding out. It's far easier to divert a gun (when within arm's reach) than it is to do with a knife.
Also, stupid muggers (with a gun) will get within arm's reach. Intelligent ones will stay about twenty or thirty feet away, and tell you to drop your wallet and walk away, and not to look back. Prevents powderburns, reduces the risk of a mark fighting back successfully.
Remark still stands, I prefer a three-foot dowel to either, where close combat is concerned. Don't have to kill, but it just as deadly if it has to be. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Talesin, you seem to know entirely too much about mugging someone <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
Mugging, no. Being in the same position, yes. I'm just glad that I'm out of high school and never have to go back. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Zig, I did not say that a gun is worthless in close-combat. I said that if you have two people trained to the same level in using a gun and using a knife, the knife will be the deadlier of the two in close-range combat. When fighting with a knife, you need to keep the basic tenets in mind (can't see can't fight, can't breathe can't fight, can't stand can't fight) but they take on a much nastier connotation when you have the option of obscuring vision with a forehead-wound, or hamstringing someone, given the right opportunity.
There's a REASON I prefer the hanbo over a knife. I don't want the possibility of robbing someone of their sight or ability to walk for the rest of their life, without being absolutely certain that it needs to happen. I also haven't dealt much with the offensive part of knives, more how to defend and avoid them, as well as how to throw them (from an uncle who could throw pen knives or ten-pound cleavers the same way, no problem).
Just get a bunch of your biggest friends, goto the guy and tell him if he keeps following you hes gonna get the **** beat out of him. Bet you wont see him again. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-Talesin+Aug 23 2004, 06:26 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Talesin @ Aug 23 2004, 06:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> as well as how to throw them (from an uncle who could throw pen knives or ten-pound cleavers the same way, no problem). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You aint Phlip are you?
hehe.
I have some minimal training in offensive knife fighting (a family branch of Kali that was honed in Vietnam)
Knife fighting is disgusting. Knife fighting with some one who knows wth they are doing is just awful.
I learned 2 things sorta like katas (Kali is one of the few MA's that I like forms, simply b/c it teaches you some automatic flows)
The first one, assuming every hit connected would have done this to the opponent: 1) Push cut to the forehead (blood in the eyes) 2) Thyroid stabed 3) Knife inserted in torso and vilently riped down 4) Both arms filleted at both shoulder and elbow (as in the bone disconected from the meat) 5) Dissembowled Every single strike was a fight ender, or a tool disabeler (aka, removing the ability to use an arm) some strikes were instantly fatal (thyroid), some designed to incipasitate (filletes, and the pushcut), all in all it was disgussting.
The second one I barely remember, however it was designed to silently take out a sentry with out alerting any one (it involved the use of 3 knifes, ussing the person's body for a sheath for some of them every so often, and holding the body upright untill your siloute could take their place)
If some one draws a knife on you, do what they want and hope you are Faster then a Flea on crack (entire bag of cookies, a caek, and a Pai to any one who gets the refference)
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
Nope. His name was Jodie. Kept a tree trunk in the back yard up on some cinder blocks just to scare new visitors, would do it with a cleaver and knock the whole thing *** over teakettle.
Ended up buying myself a set of hibben claw-blades instead, and a pair of leaf-blades to keep in practice with. One of the leafs is chipped and dinged to hell and back, as the tip snapped off.. apparently was cheap metal, if it couldn't deal with being thrown into plywood a few times. So now it runs a better chance of hitting and bouncing than properly sticking, even though I re-sharpened it correctly.
Most knife fighting I know of tends to more be an attempt to cut and bleed out your opponent before he does the same to you. There is very little that will end a knife fight quickly, beyond dumb luck or an idiot holding one of the knives.
CplDavisI hunt the arctic SnonosJoin Date: 2003-01-09Member: 12097Members
<!--QuoteBegin-Talesin+Aug 23 2004, 09:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Talesin @ Aug 23 2004, 09:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ended up buying myself a set of hibben claw-blades instead, and a pair of leaf-blades to keep in practice with. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> lol Talesin where do you live?
b/c those types are illegal to carry on your person in every state that Ive ever lived in.
Dont get caught with them outside a martial arts training facility or you may get charged with concealed deadly weapon.
Supose that a possible killer were to confront you in said scenario pertaining to any situation, of which do you think would be the most useful?
Any input would be nice. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> A Taser. I've been zapped with a hand taser (a stun gun), and it not only hurts, but it will bring you DOWN. You can't breathe, you can't move, you feel like you're being crushed. I hear a Taser is just the same.
First of all, look at the situation. Ultimately, it depends what's happening. You say there's a 'killer'. What's he armed with? A knife? A gun? Where are you?
The thing is, if you have a lethal weapon, you might have a tendancy to panic. Let's say you draw a gun. If you think you're going to be standing there like Cool Hand Luke and easilly put down this villan, you're only lying to yourself. People panic. Even the Marines panic sometimes. No one likes their life being threatened. The thing is, a gun or a knife against a killer (who is obviously intent on killing) will only ENCOURAGE him to take you down. An item like a can of mace or a stun gun looks incredibly unassuming and rather inconspicuous. In fact, stun guns look like toys.
Is stun baton a stungun?
Martial Arts I don't really consider a viable 'defensive tactic'. There's no '5 point palm exploding heart' manuver. There's no 'Vulcan nerve pinch'. Frankly, I can see Martial Arts only having limited effect, especially if: 1) The potential killer is very close (pushing up against you), 2) You're in cramped quarters like a hallway, or 3) Most likely the potential threat is probably twice your size and three times your weight. Sure you could attempt to throw the guy or pop a few fingers but all you will probably do is **** him off more. And I dont' see many featherweight skinny guys commiting murder, so I believe it's safe to assume martial arts isn't very viable.
Gun is an iffy. On one hand, you have to consider what the villan is using against YOU. Is he using his bare hands? Yeah, he might run from a gun. If he too has a gun, you're probably going to get a firsthand lesson in playing bulletcatcher with your teeth. You're not going to have a gun on hand always. If you see a killer with a gun, he can see you, and running to get your gun will probably end up with you shot. I frankly can't imagine you have much time to stand there and take aim while the guy figures out if it's an Airsoft or not. If I saw my victim see me and run back to the bedroom, and I had a gun, you can bet I'd try to take you down, not just STAND THERE. Finally, like what was brought up, a lot of people usually aren't too fond of the idea of taking a life. You might panic. You don't know what you're going to do. If I had a gun and was told to shoot someone to death, I'd have second thoughts. You can drop the gun (hell a guy who was robbing a store drops it into the clerks lap). Your gun might not even be loaded or have a triggerguard. 'Logistically' and gun is a clumsy resort of the desperate. And ULTRA-finally, killing someone tends to leave you very poor while the victim's family sues you for damages. It's been done in the past. A lot.
Knife I imagine would be the same as a can of mace. You have to be upclose and personal. The thing with a knife is you have to know how to use it. Just blindly swinging will end up with either him, yourself, both, or no one injured.
So I go back to the first part - A stun gun, which, in this case, I take to mean a 'Taser'.
1) It's non-lethal so you're more or less safe from any legal ramifications of the use.
2) The psycological effects of KNOWING it's non-lethal will most likely help you to not panic.
3) They're cheaper and easier to get then guns. Not to mention use.
4) Well, I was under the impression they were easier to own and conceal, but Necrosis says otherwise. I'd check though.
5) Another psycological by-product - tasers look like toys. If one was pointed at you, you probably would have no freakin' clue what it was. They look like medical hyposprays. A gun is pretty obvious. Brandishing a bizarre shaped piece of plastic would most likely tip odds of NOT getting killed in your favor.
Disadvantages of a taser rest mainly in the fact that if your killer is laced up to the eyeballs on PCP he MIGHT be able to shrug off the effect, but not always. Also, I think they usually only come with two darts. I think. But frankly, if you can't land two shots on a guy with a taser at 20 feet, I don't think a gun would help you much more.
On an additional note, this is a pathetic thread, just like Marik's 'Self Defense Scenario #1'. Reading these responses are rediculous. "Well I took 700 hours of kung fu in a WEEK ALONE and I know you can blah blah".
Seriously, I know that 1) Most of you are full of ****, 2) Pretty much the rest of you couldn't defend yourself in a fistfight from the school bully, and 3) There's probably only three people that responded in this thread that actually COULD hold their own in a fight. This is the internet. Almost everything you read that someone says about themselves is a lie. So really you could take this post as a lie, but that's not my intent. I'll be the first to say if I got into a fight I'd probably get my **** kicked.
That said, I can throw out some things here that annoy the CRAP out of me in this thread:
1) The "If you know proper technique..."
Why is this stupid? Because for one, you need to locate someone to train you in said proper technique. If you're talking about firearms, you either need to be a cop, be a Marine, or pay someone lots of cash, and you might not be able to even find someone to do said training. Secondly, this is assuming that the assailant is a blundering moron who holds baseball bats on the wrong end. If a forumdork can pretend he knows seven trillion ways to kill a man with his earlobes alone, I think a guy who is actually INTENT ON KILLING will know a few tricks too. Hell, in San Diego, a retired National Guardsman snapped and stole a <b>tank</b>. In Colorado, a psycho welder BUILT a tank out of concrete, steel, and a bulldozer.
2) "Well I've done such and such and I know that by doing this..."
****. If you're such an expert, and you're just some random schmuck who most likely isn't even out of college yet and YOU supposedly know this, then you'd think the crime problem would solve itself, since people with REAL physical abilities, and REAL training (ie: The Marines?) would be able to jump buildings in a single bound, run faster then a speeding train, and disarm 6 muggers with their 'invincible' kung fu technique. It's not that easy. You're only kidding yourself.
3) "Well if I had my Q-X-G Plasma fission condenced uranium tipped 5.6633 nanopoint hollowtipped round with a GK9 Full auto assault rifle equipped with a smartlink and smart triggerguard modified with a laser point accurate to 150 meters..."
You're full of crap and you know it. I know you read that on a gun website, YOU know you read it on a gun website. You might be a fan of guns, but just because someone's a NASCAR fan doesn't mean they know how to build their own car and drive it.
Sorry if I went overboard here, major peeve of mine here.
(And yes I know a very small handful of people are the exception, but most of you... you know who you are)
<!--QuoteBegin-EEK+Aug 23 2004, 11:37 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EEK @ Aug 23 2004, 11:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> On an additional note, this is a pathetic thread, just like Marik's 'Self Defense Scenario #1'. Reading these responses are rediculous. "Well I took 700 hours of kung fu in a WEEK ALONE and I know you can blah blah".
Seriously, I know that 1) Most of you are full of ****, 2) Pretty much the rest of you couldn't defend yourself in a fistfight from the school bully, and 3) There's probably only three people that responded in this thread that actually COULD hold their own in a fight. This is the internet. Almost everything you read that someone says about themselves is a lie. So really you could take this post as a lie, but that's not my intent. I'll be the first to say if I got into a fight I'd probably get my **** kicked.
That said, I can throw out some things here that annoy the CRAP out of me in this thread:
1) The "If you know proper technique..."
Why is this stupid? Because for one, you need to locate someone to train you in said proper technique. If you're talking about firearms, you either need to be a cop, be a Marine, or pay someone lots of cash, and you might not be able to even find someone to do said training. Secondly, this is assuming that the assailant is a blundering moron who holds baseball bats on the wrong end. If a forumdork can pretend he knows seven trillion ways to kill a man with his earlobes alone, I think a guy who is actually INTENT ON KILLING will know a few tricks too. Hell, in San Diego, a retired National Guardsman snapped and stole a <b>tank</b>. In Colorado, a psycho welder BUILT a tank out of concrete, steel, and a bulldozer.
2) "Well I've done such and such and I know that by doing this..."
****. If you're such an expert, and you're just some random schmuck who most likely isn't even out of college yet and YOU supposedly know this, then you'd think the crime problem would solve itself, since people with REAL physical abilities, and REAL training (ie: The Marines?) would be able to jump buildings in a single bound, run faster then a speeding train, and disarm 6 muggers with their 'invincible' kung fu technique. It's not that easy. You're only kidding yourself.
3) "Well if I had my Q-X-G Plasma fission condenced uranium tipped 5.6633 nanopoint hollowtipped round with a GK9 Full auto assault rifle equipped with a smartlink and smart triggerguard modified with a laser point accurate to 150 meters..."
You're full of crap and you know it. I know you read that on a gun website, YOU know you read it on a gun website. You might be a fan of guns, but just because someone's a NASCAR fan doesn't mean they know how to build their own car and drive it.
Sorry if I went overboard here, major peeve of mine here.
(And yes I know a very small handful of people are the exception, but most of you... you know who you are) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> EEK +1.
I took Taekwondo for a good 2 years, came a hairs breadth away from getting my black belt, and still get jittery when people even start screaming, I don't think I'd be good company if someone pulled a knife.
Remember kids: Martial arts doesn't make you into a hollywood killing machine. It doesn't make you cool in the face of a thousand rabid rapist ninja muggers, armed with AK 47s. It helps you understand how your own body moves, and how to best maximize your own movements to do what you want to do. In my experience, it does little for psycological preparation.
As mentioned before, it's probably best to alert the authorities whatever you decide.
Remember, half the battle is not getting into the situation in the first place. Be aware of your surroundings, use your noggin, and don't find yourself trapped. In most situations, when someone is forced to defend themselves, they could have avoided it if they were more aware of their surroundings.
Since most of the options require extensive training, and this stuff is happening to you NOW, it really rules out many of your options.
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-Legionnaired+Aug 24 2004, 12:22 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Aug 24 2004, 12:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Remember kids: Martial arts doesn't make you into a hollywood killing machine. It doesn't make you cool in the face of a thousand rabid rapist ninja muggers, armed with AK 47s. It helps you understand how your own body moves, and how to best maximize your own movements to do what you want to do. In my experience, it does little for psycological preparation. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> With 2 years of TaeKwonDo you probably have learned some things, even if you think you havn't
Part of martial arts training to to teach you to simply react to certain stimuli (muscle memory). It won't help you out in a mugging (as the normal training for that is to go along with what they say), however if some one throwes a slopy hook at your head, you probably will automaticly try to block/evade it, with more success then a person with out training.
Me personaly? few years of diffewrent things (mostly JKD), I think I could hold my own in a fight, however alot of my traing was to avoid confrontation (thus I have never been in a serious fight). I never want to end up in a confrontation where any one is carying a weapon. The thing that Kali knife fighting drilled into me the most is that I never want to be in that situation.
oh well, take what you will from all of this (hopefully it is simply some common sense, and thay you will know torun like a scared rabit)
I hear people speak that they could not use techniques that could permanently injure/maim the attacker. I applaud you for your honesty and compassion.
I might be a bit jaded/sardonic with my thoughts but I have no compassion for those that would prey upon another with fear and intimidation. When I hear of some criminal getting maimed/killed/injured in the course of their actions I get a grim feeling of satisfaction. Maybe I am a bit cold hearted but those are the risks you take when you step outside the law.
If a few more muggers lost an eye in the course of their 'work', we would either have a lot fewer muggings, or a lot of blind muggers.
However, don't knock pepper spray. While it isn't that great for a drug induced rage, it is perfect for subduing unruly individuals or those who are interested for a quick mark. Don't confuse pepper spray with CS sprays/gasses. CS can be shrugged off as it is an annoyance/deterrant. Pepper spray will actually inflame mucus membranes and cause eyes to swell shut. You cannot shrug off pepper spray if it actually gets in your eyes. It will leave you physically unharmed except for the not being able to see part <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> However, I would not trust it to stop anyone bent on harming you.
When it comes to defense techniques/equipment, even the best techniques are not suited for every situation and you should remember that. Try to think ahead when planning your defenses.
Public crowded place: Muggers like to get close and stick a knife to your back while they take your wallet. Defense: Keep your back to a wall, stay with friends, don't carry anything you cannot afford to lose. Walking alone on a dark street: Defense: Don't walk alone fool. Stay in the light and away from blind corners.
When I used to work security for a security firm after I left the Air Force, I carried a blackjack and pepperspray(legal in my area). Hell, I could name a thousand situations but...
<b>The best defense is making it too costly for the mugger to attack you.</b>
(For when that doesn't work, I like a form of wrestling and a my .38 revolver)
The thing is, it's true. While shooting a guy in the shoulder with a pistol might do a lot of damage, he's still a threat. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The target zones displayed for a firearm are for killing shots. A shot in the leg is normally incapacitating and quite often deadly (If the bullet hits the femoral artery you are dead. If the bullet fractures the femur, you are in a great deal of pain, unable to walk, and the bone will likely sever the femoral artery and you are dead)
Certainly someone shot in the shoulder could still use their other arm (if they can ignore the incredibly intense pain of having shattered bones grind against one another with each breath).
That is what the second bullet is for.
edit: I agree that a tazer is quite effective no matter where it hits you. The problem is that they are usually more controlled than firearms and you only get one shot. Actually, to date, I do not know of any place that you can buy a tazer. What is also amusing, I hold a CCA permit for Philadelphia. So I can carry a firearm. But! not a tazer. They are still illegal.
Comments
and If I am properly trained in sometihng else I can disable the akido person before I can break a sweat.
nothing in unbeatable, everything has a counter.
If you want a MA form that is as close to unbeatable as is possible:
Jeet Kune Do (JKD)
simply put:
Take what works,
reject what does not,
and add what is specificly your own.
However even JKD is not unbeatable, because some one elses style could trounce mine.
Oh, and I wasn't refering to a mugging, I was refering to a guy with a gun, who wants you DEE EE DEE DEAD! (hehe <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->)
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well that's just the point - aikido is a martial art made completely of counters. That's right: there isn't a single offensive move in the entire art. Basically, one uses the energy thrown against them (in a punch, in an outthrusted knife, etc) and rather than blocking it, guide it in such a way that they can say, break an arm clean in half without and energy input of their own.
Aikido was a martial art practiced by the samurai, actually. It was specifically created to be uncounterable - because you can't counter a move that doesn't exist. The man who actually created it was basically undefeatable - he was able to defeat people trained in kung-fu, karate, what-have-you when he was 80 years old. And I'm not talking a single one - I'm talking a dozen at once.
It really sounds crazy, but I've seen some of the things one can do with aikido and they're in-freaking-credibly, mind-bendingly awesome.
P.S. HEY! IF YOU GET A SNIPER RIFLE I GET A NINJA. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
seriously though, Firewater is right... there's a lack of good advice here because almost no one is speaking from experience. And there's the martial art style elitism, which is just not accurate, and it seems like most people are treating the question like it's a video game, a "this beats that" situation.
Here my recap of what I thought was good advice:
1) If you don't have the time to enhance your own self-defense skills (you know someone's coming after you soon), then you need to call the POE-LEESE!!!
2) If you bring a knife and don't know how to use it, you'll probably end up getting stabbed.(regardless of permit issues)
3) If you bring a gun and you're not willing to use it/don't know how(there's more than pulling the trigger), you'll probably end up getting shot. (regardless of permit issues)
4) If you're serious about increasing your chances of survival in a situation like this, playing this question game won't help, but getting out there and taking courses, learning martial arts/self defense, and learning how to use weapons will.
7) OTHER PEOPLE.
If You're traveling in a group, that's usually enough to deter most criminals- after all, they're looking for an easy mark. A group is harder to take down than a single person. Also, contact the authorities, after all-they're there to help.
Lunatics > common sense.
Also, come on man, what will you be doing alone in a bad area at night?
Martial Arts is definitely your best bet though. Having a tool at your disposal that could be taken away from you takes away any advantage you might have. Also, Martial Arts gives you the confidence to be calm and think logically about a situation.
Martial Arts elitism eh? Not really. It's pretty obvious that having a trained and disciplined understanding of how to fight in any situation is going to give you an advantage that no can of pepper spray or Deagle can give yee. Any style of martial arts will be helpful to you, even Tai Chi. My sensei also teaches Aikido at our dojo, and I've heard from some people that it is a pretty awesome style to learn. Personally, I think any style is worth training in.
Edit* If you're thinking about going the pistol way, please go to a gun range and practice practice practice. When you hold that pistol, it should feel like a controlled extension of your arm.
So, in short...if you want to be a pro at defending yourself, try to get into martial arts, and be sure to find a good instructor who is going to teach you how to defend yourself in real life. (If all else fails, move to Thailand and begin training in Muay Thai <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->)
<taken combat handgunning lessons?
and, for the people who so drastically underestimate the advantage that a pistol gives, in the hands of a trained user.. i pity you. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Slightly worrying, but I agree with FW on this one.
Kida, sorry to say so, but if you decide to do this 'on your own', you're getting yourself a one-way ticket to the gutter. Discuss the issue with the friend you helped, make clear that you fear you are <i>both</i> in grave danger, as you would be if what you said is true, then activate the authorities.
i happened to miss this: if you buy an XD, get it refinished unless you like your slide rusting.
However, I'd rather know any form of martial arts.
But I'd rather have a gun. Go go texas, where I can carry a concealed gun at the age of 18, with a permit of course.
if that was sarcasm it was OVERLY subtle <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, I was saying that if it wasn't illegal and I knew someone was completely determined and had the patience to make a close-quarters attack on me I'd get something like a MAC-11 or Glock-18
Also, stupid muggers (with a gun) will get within arm's reach. Intelligent ones will stay about twenty or thirty feet away, and tell you to drop your wallet and walk away, and not to look back. Prevents powderburns, reduces the risk of a mark fighting back successfully.
Remark still stands, I prefer a three-foot dowel to either, where close combat is concerned. Don't have to kill, but it just as deadly if it has to be. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Talesin, you seem to know entirely too much about mugging someone <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Zig, I did not say that a gun is worthless in close-combat. I said that if you have two people trained to the same level in using a gun and using a knife, the knife will be the deadlier of the two in close-range combat.
When fighting with a knife, you need to keep the basic tenets in mind (can't see can't fight, can't breathe can't fight, can't stand can't fight) but they take on a much nastier connotation when you have the option of obscuring vision with a forehead-wound, or hamstringing someone, given the right opportunity.
There's a REASON I prefer the hanbo over a knife. I don't want the possibility of robbing someone of their sight or ability to walk for the rest of their life, without being absolutely certain that it needs to happen. I also haven't dealt much with the offensive part of knives, more how to defend and avoid them, as well as how to throw them (from an uncle who could throw pen knives or ten-pound cleavers the same way, no problem).
You aint Phlip are you?
hehe.
I have some minimal training in offensive knife fighting (a family branch of Kali that was honed in Vietnam)
Knife fighting is disgusting.
Knife fighting with some one who knows wth they are doing is just awful.
I learned 2 things sorta like katas (Kali is one of the few MA's that I like forms, simply b/c it teaches you some automatic flows)
The first one, assuming every hit connected would have done this to the opponent:
1) Push cut to the forehead (blood in the eyes)
2) Thyroid stabed
3) Knife inserted in torso and vilently riped down
4) Both arms filleted at both shoulder and elbow (as in the bone disconected from the meat)
5) Dissembowled
Every single strike was a fight ender, or a tool disabeler (aka, removing the ability to use an arm)
some strikes were instantly fatal (thyroid), some designed to incipasitate (filletes, and the pushcut), all in all it was disgussting.
The second one I barely remember, however it was designed to silently take out a sentry with out alerting any one (it involved the use of 3 knifes, ussing the person's body for a sheath for some of them every so often, and holding the body upright untill your siloute could take their place)
If some one draws a knife on you, do what they want and hope you are Faster then a Flea on crack (entire bag of cookies, a caek, and a Pai to any one who gets the refference)
Ended up buying myself a set of hibben claw-blades instead, and a pair of leaf-blades to keep in practice with. One of the leafs is chipped and dinged to hell and back, as the tip snapped off.. apparently was cheap metal, if it couldn't deal with being thrown into plywood a few times. So now it runs a better chance of hitting and bouncing than properly sticking, even though I re-sharpened it correctly.
Most knife fighting I know of tends to more be an attempt to cut and bleed out your opponent before he does the same to you. There is very little that will end a knife fight quickly, beyond dumb luck or an idiot holding one of the knives.
Run like a mother if he doesnt have a gun.
lol Talesin where do you live?
b/c those types are illegal to carry on your person in every state that Ive ever lived in.
Dont get caught with them outside a martial arts training facility or you may get charged with concealed deadly weapon.
2) Stun gun
3) Pepper spray
4) Knife
5) Gun
6) Martial arts
Supose that a possible killer were to confront you in said scenario pertaining to any situation, of which do you think would be the most useful?
Any input would be nice. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A Taser. I've been zapped with a hand taser (a stun gun), and it not only hurts, but it will bring you DOWN. You can't breathe, you can't move, you feel like you're being crushed. I hear a Taser is just the same.
First of all, look at the situation. Ultimately, it depends what's happening. You say there's a 'killer'. What's he armed with? A knife? A gun? Where are you?
The thing is, if you have a lethal weapon, you might have a tendancy to panic. Let's say you draw a gun. If you think you're going to be standing there like Cool Hand Luke and easilly put down this villan, you're only lying to yourself. People panic. Even the Marines panic sometimes. No one likes their life being threatened. The thing is, a gun or a knife against a killer (who is obviously intent on killing) will only ENCOURAGE him to take you down. An item like a can of mace or a stun gun looks incredibly unassuming and rather inconspicuous. In fact, stun guns look like toys.
Is stun baton a stungun?
Martial Arts I don't really consider a viable 'defensive tactic'. There's no '5 point palm exploding heart' manuver. There's no 'Vulcan nerve pinch'. Frankly, I can see Martial Arts only having limited effect, especially if: 1) The potential killer is very close (pushing up against you), 2) You're in cramped quarters like a hallway, or 3) Most likely the potential threat is probably twice your size and three times your weight. Sure you could attempt to throw the guy or pop a few fingers but all you will probably do is **** him off more. And I dont' see many featherweight skinny guys commiting murder, so I believe it's safe to assume martial arts isn't very viable.
Gun is an iffy. On one hand, you have to consider what the villan is using against YOU. Is he using his bare hands? Yeah, he might run from a gun. If he too has a gun, you're probably going to get a firsthand lesson in playing bulletcatcher with your teeth. You're not going to have a gun on hand always. If you see a killer with a gun, he can see you, and running to get your gun will probably end up with you shot. I frankly can't imagine you have much time to stand there and take aim while the guy figures out if it's an Airsoft or not. If I saw my victim see me and run back to the bedroom, and I had a gun, you can bet I'd try to take you down, not just STAND THERE. Finally, like what was brought up, a lot of people usually aren't too fond of the idea of taking a life. You might panic. You don't know what you're going to do. If I had a gun and was told to shoot someone to death, I'd have second thoughts. You can drop the gun (hell a guy who was robbing a store drops it into the clerks lap). Your gun might not even be loaded or have a triggerguard. 'Logistically' and gun is a clumsy resort of the desperate. And ULTRA-finally, killing someone tends to leave you very poor while the victim's family sues you for damages. It's been done in the past. A lot.
Knife I imagine would be the same as a can of mace. You have to be upclose and personal. The thing with a knife is you have to know how to use it. Just blindly swinging will end up with either him, yourself, both, or no one injured.
So I go back to the first part - A stun gun, which, in this case, I take to mean a 'Taser'.
1) It's non-lethal so you're more or less safe from any legal ramifications of the use.
2) The psycological effects of KNOWING it's non-lethal will most likely help you to not panic.
3) They're cheaper and easier to get then guns. Not to mention use.
4) Well, I was under the impression they were easier to own and conceal, but Necrosis says otherwise. I'd check though.
5) Another psycological by-product - tasers look like toys. If one was pointed at you, you probably would have no freakin' clue what it was. They look like medical hyposprays. A gun is pretty obvious. Brandishing a bizarre shaped piece of plastic would most likely tip odds of NOT getting killed in your favor.
Disadvantages of a taser rest mainly in the fact that if your killer is laced up to the eyeballs on PCP he MIGHT be able to shrug off the effect, but not always. Also, I think they usually only come with two darts. I think. But frankly, if you can't land two shots on a guy with a taser at 20 feet, I don't think a gun would help you much more.
Oh and here's something interesting:
<img src='http://www.safetygearhq.com/images/targetzones02.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
The thing is, it's true. While shooting a guy in the shoulder with a pistol might do a lot of damage, he's still a threat.
Seriously, I know that 1) Most of you are full of ****, 2) Pretty much the rest of you couldn't defend yourself in a fistfight from the school bully, and 3) There's probably only three people that responded in this thread that actually COULD hold their own in a fight. This is the internet. Almost everything you read that someone says about themselves is a lie. So really you could take this post as a lie, but that's not my intent. I'll be the first to say if I got into a fight I'd probably get my **** kicked.
That said, I can throw out some things here that annoy the CRAP out of me in this thread:
1) The "If you know proper technique..."
Why is this stupid? Because for one, you need to locate someone to train you in said proper technique. If you're talking about firearms, you either need to be a cop, be a Marine, or pay someone lots of cash, and you might not be able to even find someone to do said training. Secondly, this is assuming that the assailant is a blundering moron who holds baseball bats on the wrong end. If a forumdork can pretend he knows seven trillion ways to kill a man with his earlobes alone, I think a guy who is actually INTENT ON KILLING will know a few tricks too. Hell, in San Diego, a retired National Guardsman snapped and stole a <b>tank</b>. In Colorado, a psycho welder BUILT a tank out of concrete, steel, and a bulldozer.
2) "Well I've done such and such and I know that by doing this..."
****. If you're such an expert, and you're just some random schmuck who most likely isn't even out of college yet and YOU supposedly know this, then you'd think the crime problem would solve itself, since people with REAL physical abilities, and REAL training (ie: The Marines?) would be able to jump buildings in a single bound, run faster then a speeding train, and disarm 6 muggers with their 'invincible' kung fu technique. It's not that easy. You're only kidding yourself.
3) "Well if I had my Q-X-G Plasma fission condenced uranium tipped 5.6633 nanopoint hollowtipped round with a GK9 Full auto assault rifle equipped with a smartlink and smart triggerguard modified with a laser point accurate to 150 meters..."
You're full of crap and you know it. I know you read that on a gun website, YOU know you read it on a gun website. You might be a fan of guns, but just because someone's a NASCAR fan doesn't mean they know how to build their own car and drive it.
Sorry if I went overboard here, major peeve of mine here.
(And yes I know a very small handful of people are the exception, but most of you... you know who you are)
Seriously, I know that 1) Most of you are full of ****, 2) Pretty much the rest of you couldn't defend yourself in a fistfight from the school bully, and 3) There's probably only three people that responded in this thread that actually COULD hold their own in a fight. This is the internet. Almost everything you read that someone says about themselves is a lie. So really you could take this post as a lie, but that's not my intent. I'll be the first to say if I got into a fight I'd probably get my **** kicked.
That said, I can throw out some things here that annoy the CRAP out of me in this thread:
1) The "If you know proper technique..."
Why is this stupid? Because for one, you need to locate someone to train you in said proper technique. If you're talking about firearms, you either need to be a cop, be a Marine, or pay someone lots of cash, and you might not be able to even find someone to do said training. Secondly, this is assuming that the assailant is a blundering moron who holds baseball bats on the wrong end. If a forumdork can pretend he knows seven trillion ways to kill a man with his earlobes alone, I think a guy who is actually INTENT ON KILLING will know a few tricks too. Hell, in San Diego, a retired National Guardsman snapped and stole a <b>tank</b>. In Colorado, a psycho welder BUILT a tank out of concrete, steel, and a bulldozer.
2) "Well I've done such and such and I know that by doing this..."
****. If you're such an expert, and you're just some random schmuck who most likely isn't even out of college yet and YOU supposedly know this, then you'd think the crime problem would solve itself, since people with REAL physical abilities, and REAL training (ie: The Marines?) would be able to jump buildings in a single bound, run faster then a speeding train, and disarm 6 muggers with their 'invincible' kung fu technique. It's not that easy. You're only kidding yourself.
3) "Well if I had my Q-X-G Plasma fission condenced uranium tipped 5.6633 nanopoint hollowtipped round with a GK9 Full auto assault rifle equipped with a smartlink and smart triggerguard modified with a laser point accurate to 150 meters..."
You're full of crap and you know it. I know you read that on a gun website, YOU know you read it on a gun website. You might be a fan of guns, but just because someone's a NASCAR fan doesn't mean they know how to build their own car and drive it.
Sorry if I went overboard here, major peeve of mine here.
(And yes I know a very small handful of people are the exception, but most of you... you know who you are) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
EEK +1.
I took Taekwondo for a good 2 years, came a hairs breadth away from getting my black belt, and still get jittery when people even start screaming, I don't think I'd be good company if someone pulled a knife.
Remember kids: Martial arts doesn't make you into a hollywood killing machine. It doesn't make you cool in the face of a thousand rabid rapist ninja muggers, armed with AK 47s. It helps you understand how your own body moves, and how to best maximize your own movements to do what you want to do. In my experience, it does little for psycological preparation.
Remember, half the battle is not getting into the situation in the first place. Be aware of your surroundings, use your noggin, and don't find yourself trapped. In most situations, when someone is forced to defend themselves, they could have avoided it if they were more aware of their surroundings.
Since most of the options require extensive training, and this stuff is happening to you NOW, it really rules out many of your options.
With 2 years of TaeKwonDo you probably have learned some things, even if you think you havn't
Part of martial arts training to to teach you to simply react to certain stimuli (muscle memory). It won't help you out in a mugging (as the normal training for that is to go along with what they say), however if some one throwes a slopy hook at your head, you probably will automaticly try to block/evade it, with more success then a person with out training.
Me personaly? few years of diffewrent things (mostly JKD), I think I could hold my own in a fight, however alot of my traing was to avoid confrontation (thus I have never been in a serious fight). I never want to end up in a confrontation where any one is carying a weapon. The thing that Kali knife fighting drilled into me the most is that I never want to be in that situation.
oh well, take what you will from all of this (hopefully it is simply some common sense, and thay you will know torun like a scared rabit)
I might be a bit jaded/sardonic with my thoughts but I have no compassion for those that would prey upon another with fear and intimidation. When I hear of some criminal getting maimed/killed/injured in the course of their actions I get a grim feeling of satisfaction. Maybe I am a bit cold hearted but those are the risks you take when you step outside the law.
If a few more muggers lost an eye in the course of their 'work', we would either have a lot fewer muggings, or a lot of blind muggers.
However, don't knock pepper spray. While it isn't that great for a drug induced rage, it is perfect for subduing unruly individuals or those who are interested for a quick mark. Don't confuse pepper spray with CS sprays/gasses. CS can be shrugged off as it is an annoyance/deterrant. Pepper spray will actually inflame mucus membranes and cause eyes to swell shut. You cannot shrug off pepper spray if it actually gets in your eyes. It will leave you physically unharmed except for the not being able to see part <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> However, I would not trust it to stop anyone bent on harming you.
When it comes to defense techniques/equipment, even the best techniques are not suited for every situation and you should remember that. Try to think ahead when planning your defenses.
Public crowded place: Muggers like to get close and stick a knife to your back while they take your wallet.
Defense: Keep your back to a wall, stay with friends, don't carry anything you cannot afford to lose.
Walking alone on a dark street:
Defense: Don't walk alone fool. Stay in the light and away from blind corners.
When I used to work security for a security firm after I left the Air Force, I carried a blackjack and pepperspray(legal in my area). Hell, I could name a thousand situations but...
<b>The best defense is making it too costly for the mugger to attack you.</b>
(For when that doesn't work, I like a form of wrestling and a my .38 revolver)
<img src='http://www.safetygearhq.com/images/targetzones02.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
The thing is, it's true. While shooting a guy in the shoulder with a pistol might do a lot of damage, he's still a threat. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The target zones displayed for a firearm are for killing shots. A shot in the leg is normally incapacitating and quite often deadly (If the bullet hits the femoral artery you are dead. If the bullet fractures the femur, you are in a great deal of pain, unable to walk, and the bone will likely sever the femoral artery and you are dead)
Certainly someone shot in the shoulder could still use their other arm (if they can ignore the incredibly intense pain of having shattered bones grind against one another with each breath).
That is what the second bullet is for.
edit: I agree that a tazer is quite effective no matter where it hits you. The problem is that they are usually more controlled than firearms and you only get one shot. Actually, to date, I do not know of any place that you can buy a tazer. What is also amusing, I hold a CCA permit for Philadelphia. So I can carry a firearm. But! not a tazer. They are still illegal.