I don't understand why clan play outshines pub play. Clans play with small numbers using teamwork, but if you are a reg on a reg only server, you get more than twice the players AND the teamwork. The game truely shines when you have a full server of +25.
It's crazy fun trying to kill off 10 aliens charging your area trying to take it when you hear your squad mates frantic and sound of gun fire and biting... Too much fun.
<!--QuoteBegin-todd1Ok+Jan 12 2005, 01:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (todd1Ok @ Jan 12 2005, 01:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> CAL-ns|Hsu - Competitive Natural Selection play is completely different from normal server play. There is just no comparison. Competitive play allows you to focus less on herding your team to an objective and more on how to work with your team to achieve that objective
taken from a new announcement post.
sums up why clan play will always eclipse public play and why this game should be balanced, moreso than it already is, for clan play, and not the focus fading, redemp onosing, spawn camping stat **** noobs that populate the lvl 200 combat servers. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, lets change the game just to make the GAME more fun for you and your little group. God only knows how important it is for you all to have your battle matches to prove how much better and how much larger your pen1s is compared to the rest of the community! Let alone, we should sodomize the gameplay for your petty 'matches'. How important is this stuff to you people? Go out side and tell people you play NS on CAL (Cal is a joke as it is) and how good and competitive you are. I bet they'll be impressed, and remember the day they met you for the rest of their lives. Don't you realize that when the game is over, everyone will forget in about a day?
<!--QuoteBegin-todd1Ok+Jan 12 2005, 10:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (todd1Ok @ Jan 12 2005, 10:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> drop onos carapace back to 100 extra armor. reduce redemp back to 25% or whatever it was. lower fade carapaced armor by 20. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If we're supposed to balance for clan play then why are you advocating those changes?
Do onos see much use in clan play? Does redemption get used a lot in clan play? Fade carapace is common, I'll give you that, but if we're supposed to balance for clan play then where are you getting these other changes from?
Or is this because you're getting tired of playing on pubs and seeing people use these features?
<!--QuoteBegin-Swift Idiot+Jan 12 2005, 01:26 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swift Idiot @ Jan 12 2005, 01:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Does the NBA balance basketball for highschool kids? The answer is HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Wow. Worst example ever. Honestly...no really, worst example ever. Let me translate this into NS. "Does CAL(Or CPL) balance NS for pubs?"
The game - basketball- was created way before the NBA was started. The basic ways to play and basic game were set. The NBA tweaked rules to their liking (CPL specific rules). College play has certain rules that differ from the NBA (CAL), as high school does from the nba (public servers) Without high school and college teams, the quality and quantity of the NBA would rapidly decline. And these players go from minor tweaks in the rules just fine, and adjust WITH THE HELP of people that have been in the NBA for a while.
We don't have a big enough Public and CAL play to become CPL. So technically we only have 'college play'
<!--QuoteBegin-Gerald R Ford+Jan 12 2005, 01:34 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gerald R Ford @ Jan 12 2005, 01:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You must be talking about CS, because cal-ns has only 60 people playing. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> the couple thousand was for overall public play :-p 60 is the CAL only if you cut out public play
The game <i>must</i> be tested for balance by clans. They're the ones who have the teamwork and abilities to find the strategies that reduce the game to simply whoever picks a certain side wins. Hopefully, balancing by clans gets rid of that.
At the same time, the game must <i>not</i> be unbalanced for the pubs.
The game should be just as balanced for the two teams of players who are completely new to computers as it is for two clans. Yeah, the newer levels will play at a lower level of skill, but if the skill levels of the teams are the same, the outcome should be in doubt at the start of the game. Period.
If you take two teams that are completely new to the game, have them read the manual, then stick them in the game and you know before it starts which side will win? The game isn't properly balanced.
First, guys lets try not to get at eachothers necks plx kthx. but yha, some great thing to do is just make your own clan, with the people you know. Dont expect to get too far, since right now its like cal-o players playing with cal-m players (Which makes up omega ns). etc.
The 2nd thing is, if you clan is gonna get anywhere you have to scrim scrim scrim. A.K.A practice matches against other clans. Your clan will lose probrably 5-10 times before your first win, which makes it even harder. But youll have some good times to, some very good times when you start getting more orginized.
You will need MIRC. then goto <a href='http://www.gamesurge.net/servers/' target='_blank'>http://www.gamesurge.net/servers/</a> and select your closest server.
For clan purposes start hanigng out in #findnsclan
and also you should start practicing now by going to #nspickup
and do pickupgames, its kinda like a pub, cept you get people who want to splay together and you can learn the basics there. maybe even get picked up by another clan if you do well.
Some of you are not really listening to what people are saying. Such as the balance for clan issue.. Some people think that this will somehow make the game less fun or unbalanced for pub play. This is a possible chance.. Yes. But is doubtful...
There is more a chance that if the game is made better (balanced and fun if we can get away with it) at high levels of play, that the game will become better at low level play also.
Why? Because balancing the game at a high level of play is the most effective way to get balance in the first place. Where have people gotten the idea that having a balanced game will take out the fun? I dont think people understand what is ment when the game is made balanced at high level of playing. The general idea is that the game is made balanced by (note: not "for") people that know the game the best, have played all the tactics and generaly know how things go. A balanced high level game will be balanced at low level play also. A balanced game at low level play is not necessary a balanced game at high level play. Its true that this is not always the case, but more often than not, is.
Wouldnt you want the game balanced to people with experiance rather than listening to the person thats played for 2 days or only plays now and then. With work from top level players ns can become better.
Either way its up to the dev team and they are working on it.. So shh, go play some NS.
Now then... No one read this post and just carry on arguing.. I dare you.
That_Annoying_KidSire of TitlesJoin Date: 2003-03-01Member: 14175Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-Varsity+Jan 12 2005, 01:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Varsity @ Jan 12 2005, 01:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The best way to go, IMO, is balanced for clanners and <b>FUN</b> for pubbers. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> ^^
and who was it who was saying "people like you are the reason NS is dying"
reality check, since 1.xx this mod has done nothing but shine and grow bigger and better, we have a community of 30,000 people and growing.
Some of you are not really listening to what people are saying. Such as the balance for clan issue.. Some people think that this will somehow make the game less fun or unbalanced for pub play. This is a possible chance.. Yes. But is doubtful...
There is more a chance that if the game is made better (balanced and fun if we can get away with it) at high levels of play, that the game will become better at low level play also.
Why? Because balancing the game at a high level of play is the most effective way to get balance in the first place. Where have people gotten the idea that having a balanced game will take out the fun? I dont think people understand what is ment when the game is made balanced at high level of playing. The general idea is that the game is made balanced by (note: not "for") people that know the game the best, have played all the tactics and generaly know how things go. A balanced high level game will be balanced at low level play also. A balanced game at low level play is not necessary a balanced game at high level play. Its true that this is not always the case, but more often than not, is.
Wouldnt you want the game balanced to people with experiance rather than listening to the person thats played for 2 days or only plays now and then. With work from top level players ns can become better.
Either way its up to the dev team and they are working on it.. So shh, go play some NS.
Now then... No one read this post and just carry on arguing.. I dare you. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> *Applause*
<!--QuoteBegin-N1Rampage+Jan 12 2005, 01:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (N1Rampage @ Jan 12 2005, 01:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> but if you are a reg on a reg only server, you get more than twice the players AND the teamwork. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Never, I mean NEVER say that again.
Teamwork on a pub is no where near anything seen in clan play. If you don't believe me get 6 of your best people from your favorite server you reg on and play in CAL.
<!--QuoteBegin-N1Rampage+Jan 12 2005, 04:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (N1Rampage @ Jan 12 2005, 04:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't understand why clan play outshines pub play. Clans play with small numbers using teamwork, but if you are a reg on a reg only server, you get more than twice the players AND the teamwork. The game truely shines when you have a full server of +25.
It's crazy fun trying to kill off 10 aliens charging your area trying to take it when you hear your squad mates frantic and sound of gun fire and biting... Too much fun. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> a regular on a regular only server? That sort of defeats the purpose of playing on a public server to me.
For instance one night I was playing last week I happened to join one of these so called "reg only" servers to only be alienated and looked over by the commander.
It's fun to play NS if people know what they're doing, but being in a clan means you are in a consistant enviroment with other players who know what their doing. You're in it together and there is little doubt to that. Whereas on your average pub, lets say Lone's Peak, there is a variety of people playing with varying levels of determination to play the game rather then a hang out or to make some frags.
You can enjoy yourself in clan, but there will always be times of stress. It doesn't always have to be.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Teamwork with fun is generally better then clan type teamwork where everyones minds are on winning and nothing else. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Obviously you have no idea what your talking about. Except in matchs most scrims chat is just people freaking around at the top lvl.
<!--QuoteBegin-Wither+Jan 12 2005, 10:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wither @ Jan 12 2005, 10:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-todd1Ok+Jan 12 2005, 10:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (todd1Ok @ Jan 12 2005, 10:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> drop onos carapace back to 100 extra armor. reduce redemp back to 25% or whatever it was. lower fade carapaced armor by 20. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If we're supposed to balance for clan play then why are you advocating those changes?
Do onos see much use in clan play? Does redemption get used a lot in clan play? Fade carapace is common, I'll give you that, but if we're supposed to balance for clan play then where are you getting these other changes from?
Or is this because you're getting tired of playing on pubs and seeing people use these features?
I don't get it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hit the nail right square on the head. Another case of "i'm so pro, how can they kill me?!?!" "OMG it must be their upgrades <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> "
He is being self destructive with this thread, looks like he doesn't like that people are killing him in the game, due to these upgrades.
Let people play how they want to play, not like they are going to care what you think of them now is it?
Would be like threatening someone with physical violence in a game... on line... on some server far far away, without knowing where that person lives..
Pointless.
The balance suggestions he states are odd. They seem pointless for clan play <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The game truely shines when you have a full server of +25.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You realise at 25 players - assuming marines have the exra there are 12 aliens. For that, the marines need only have one RT to gain the same res per tick as aliens with 2 RTs - meaning if the marines have 50% of the RTs on the map, their res flow will be HUGELY more than the Aliens. Sounds like you like to play one sided marine victories, or extrememly long alien ones :/
I feel we should clear up a number of misconceptions that people seem to have about clanners before we continue.
1. We're not all bastards who only care about ourselves, e-gos and winning despite ismalis (hilarious) ideas about us. 2i) All clanners have in the past exclusively played JUST public NS like yourself, we know where you're coming from 2ii) We have however also experienced clan play and prefer it. Have you noticed how nearly every person who tries clan play prefers it to public play? We're not a brainwashing cult, people do honestly prefer it. 3) We all play NS for the same reason: we all want to have fun. 4) At the risk of sounding egotistical - generally speaking, we have a better understanding of the individual classes, strategies and tactics than your average player. This stems from playing in a competitive enviroment.
N1Rampage: I don't know if you've ever been in a clan but i'm guessing you haven't. Honestly, teamwork on a pub doesn't even go as far as knowing where to go at the start of the round. You have limited co-ordination and things are very unorganised. I'm a regular on the YO-clan and LM servers which both have large regular player bases. I play there often and i've experienced both public and clanplay teamwork, trust me when i say they don't compare.
I'm willing to bet that after a scrim you'd think differently too. Nearly everyone does. If you read my old posts i was just like you but after one PCW with a low skilled clan i was hooked. Competitive NS is EVERYTHING you want from NS, you're just letting your misconceptions cloud your views. I'm so confident with this that i'll invite you to play with my clan, i can guarentee you'll love it.
Being balanced by clanners doesn't mean it'll not be fun for your average player anymore. We still play the same game, we both play to have fun despite ismalis preconceptions, we're all nice guys who just want to make the game enjoyable for everyone.
NEO_PhyteWe need shirtgons!Join Date: 2003-12-16Member: 24453Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-esuna+Jan 12 2005, 05:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (esuna @ Jan 12 2005, 05:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <post displaying general ignorance and flames against one group of players and forcing the opinion that one style of play is better than the others> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> <agreement post>
<!--QuoteBegin-El Ripper+Jan 12 2005, 04:28 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (El Ripper @ Jan 12 2005, 04:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A balanced high level game will be balanced at low level play also. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This doesn't follow at all.
As a thought experiment: Imagine a game balanced for highly skilled players.
It's balanced in such a way that by performing certain trick moves of the marine, you can get up to a high point and hit a button that instantly gives the full team HA in the first minute.
The alien team is then powered up to such a degree as to be able to handle a HA equipped marine team within the first minute.
Players with high skill levels play the game, see that yeah, they get up there, do the trick, then go stomping down with their HA and have a rip-roaring good time fighting the buffed aliens. They all declare it balanced and it gets released to the pub scene.
Of course then the players with low skill levels can't get up there, and get royally stomped by the aliens every single time, even if they're playing an underskilled alien team. People get justifiably torqued at the "imbalance" and leave.
Can a game be balanced at high and low levels? I think so yes. Does it being balanced at one level automagically imply it's balanced at another? No.
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
edited January 2005
<!--QuoteBegin-comrade+Jan 12 2005, 08:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (comrade @ Jan 12 2005, 08:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Sky+Jan 12 2005, 02:16 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky @ Jan 12 2005, 02:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> stuff <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you balance the game for clan play, surprisingly it is also balanced for public play. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's so untrue. The only way that could be true is either:
a) If there were equal bonuses from teamwork on each side and if each side had the same logistical issues.
or
b) The benefit's from teamwork outweighed the difficulty of co-ordination.
Co-ordination is easier from the marine perspective on a pub because you have one guy holding the reins. Besides which, kharaa have to wait till hive 2 before a lot of their interlocking abilities come into play. Result? Marine wins on anything but the most incompetent of servers.
The most plausible way to deal with this is to buff individual kharaa e.g. skulk hp/hitbox, gorge spit, lerk flight, etc. and reduce the effectiveness of their complimentary abilities, e.g. umbra. Sadly, that removes some of the most interesting and rewarding aspects of NS (i.e. teamplay).
TBPFH, I'd rather have seen marines develop a greater need for interdependance, but I guess that isn't as marketable as self-interest.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's balanced in such a way that by performing certain trick moves of the marine, you can get up to a high point and hit a button that instantly gives the full team HA in the first minute.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would think if there was a possibility of obtaining HA within the first minute then there are obvious balance issues for the marines to be worked out in the first place.
I'm sorry to say this but balance in a public arena happens by luck not judgement. You can't make 2+2 = 5. You can't make an enviroment where the skills range from NSplayer to the best player in the world balanced. You could make any number of changes which would have absolutely zero impact to public play that would totally destroy competitive NS. You can't change competitive NS and then make public play distractly unbalanced. Sorry your example of pressing a button isn't valid.
When scientists do experiements they control variables, temperature, PH, contamination, they create conditions and then maintain them. If balancing NS was an experiment then what you get is this: Competitive play - equal skills, specialists doing specific roles, game being played to full potential. Public play: a random selection of people who can either suck terribly or be the best thing ever. No variables are controlled and as such any results you get are totally invalid and represent absolutely nothing.
In competitive play ns_veil is a marine biased map, aliens hardly ever win a round unless there is a large skill difference between the two clans. In public play, the stats gathered from lunixmonster show that aliens have a 2:1 ratio of wins. Which stats do you think are truely representative of map balance? The ones in a controlled enviroment or the ones from a random enviroment? I know which i listened to.
EDIT: i balanced ns_eclipse and ns_veil for competitive play. Pubbers still love them and say they're balanced.
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
edited January 2005
<!--QuoteBegin-MrBen+Jan 13 2005, 01:10 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrBen @ Jan 13 2005, 01:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm sorry to say this but balance in a public arena happens by luck not judgement. You can't make 2+2 = 5. You can't make an enviroment where the skills range from NSplayer to the best player in the world balanced. You could make any number of changes which would have absolutely zero impact to public play that would totally destroy competitive NS. You can't change competitive NS and then make public play distractly unbalanced. Sorry your example of pressing a button isn't valid.
When scientists do experiements they control variables, temperature, PH, contamination, they create conditions and then maintain them. If balancing NS was an experiment then what you get is this: Competitive play - equal skills, specialists doing specific roles, game being played to full potential. Public play: a random selection of people who can either suck terribly or be the best thing ever. No variables are controlled and as such any results you get are totally invalid and represent absolutely nothing.
In competitive play ns_veil is a marine biased map, aliens hardly ever win a round unless there is a large skill difference between the two clans. In public play, the stats gathered from lunixmonster show that aliens have a 2:1 ratio of wins. Which stats do you think are truely representative of map balance? The ones in a controlled enviroment or the ones from a random enviroment? I know which i listened to.
EDIT: i balanced ns_eclipse and ns_veil for competitive play. Pubbers still love them and say they're balanced. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
[Edit]Changed to make more sense and sound less harsh[/Edit]
The penultimate paragraph is fair enough, but the first two are totally wibble, ptwang hatstand. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Maybe you should reread it. It clearly states that you cannot balance for a random enviroment (public play). To get any sort of representative results from testing you need to control variables (individual skill) and that is only doable in a 6v6 clan match
<!--QuoteBegin-MrRadicalEd+Jan 12 2005, 06:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrRadicalEd @ Jan 12 2005, 06:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's balanced in such a way that by performing certain trick moves of the marine, you can get up to a high point and hit a button that instantly gives the full team HA in the first minute.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would think if there was a possibility of obtaining HA within the first minute then there are obvious balance issues for the marines to be worked out in the first place. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I chose that as an example because it's obvious.
How's this for a little less obvious: up fade speed (both blink and normal) by 50%, narrow fade cone of fire by 50%, and double swipe damage, then give the marines adequate bonuses to compensate for a skilled player using this buffed fade.
Balanced at the high skill level, but at the low skill level? Combine the increased speed with narrower cone of fire means the lower skilled fade almost never hits. Meanwhile, the marines still receive the benefits of their "compensatory" buffs.
Now as for the argument about it being impossible to balance for pub play, nobody ever said the task was easy, but there are ways. First test people to determine their general level of play, and then assign them to test groups. When released to the general public, take a lot of statistical measures.
The very fact that a map is biased one way when highly skilled and the other way when lower skilled goes to prove my point exactly. Obviously there's something in that map that higher skilled players on the one side can take advantage of and swing it their way, that the lower skilled players can't. The map was balanced for one set of players (presumably those in the middle) and now both ends suffer.
This is the exact problem with people saying "Balance it for the clans!" or "Balance it for the pubs!" They're both wrong. You have to balance it for everyone or your driving one of the groups away.
Comments
It's crazy fun trying to kill off 10 aliens charging your area trying to take it when you hear your squad mates frantic and sound of gun fire and biting... Too much fun.
taken from a new announcement post.
sums up why clan play will always eclipse public play and why this game should be balanced, moreso than it already is, for clan play, and not the focus fading, redemp onosing, spawn camping stat **** noobs that populate the lvl 200 combat servers. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, lets change the game just to make the GAME more fun for you and your little group. God only knows how important it is for you all to have your battle matches to prove how much better and how much larger your pen1s is compared to the rest of the community! Let alone, we should sodomize the gameplay for your petty 'matches'. How important is this stuff to you people? Go out side and tell people you play NS on CAL (Cal is a joke as it is) and how good and competitive you are. I bet they'll be impressed, and remember the day they met you for the rest of their lives. Don't you realize that when the game is over, everyone will forget in about a day?
If we're supposed to balance for clan play then why are you advocating those changes?
Do onos see much use in clan play? Does redemption get used a lot in clan play? Fade carapace is common, I'll give you that, but if we're supposed to balance for clan play then where are you getting these other changes from?
Or is this because you're getting tired of playing on pubs and seeing people use these features?
I don't get it.
Wow. Worst example ever. Honestly...no really, worst example ever.
Let me translate this into NS. "Does CAL(Or CPL) balance NS for pubs?"
The game - basketball- was created way before the NBA was started. The basic ways to play and basic game were set. The NBA tweaked rules to their liking (CPL specific rules). College play has certain rules that differ from the NBA (CAL), as high school does from the nba (public servers) Without high school and college teams, the quality and quantity of the NBA would rapidly decline. And these players go from minor tweaks in the rules just fine, and adjust WITH THE HELP of people that have been in the NBA for a while.
We don't have a big enough Public and CAL play to become CPL. So technically we only have 'college play'
the couple thousand was for overall public play :-p 60 is the CAL only if you cut out public play
At the same time, the game must <i>not</i> be unbalanced for the pubs.
The game should be just as balanced for the two teams of players who are completely new to computers as it is for two clans. Yeah, the newer levels will play at a lower level of skill, but if the skill levels of the teams are the same, the outcome should be in doubt at the start of the game. Period.
If you take two teams that are completely new to the game, have them read the manual, then stick them in the game and you know before it starts which side will win? The game isn't properly balanced.
The 2nd thing is, if you clan is gonna get anywhere you have to scrim scrim scrim. A.K.A practice matches against other clans. Your clan will lose probrably 5-10 times before your first win, which makes it even harder. But youll have some good times to, some very good times when you start getting more orginized.
You will need MIRC.
then goto <a href='http://www.gamesurge.net/servers/' target='_blank'>http://www.gamesurge.net/servers/</a>
and select your closest server.
For clan purposes start hanigng out in
#findnsclan
and also you should start practicing now by going to
#nspickup
and do pickupgames, its kinda like a pub, cept you get people who want to splay together and you can learn the basics there. maybe even get picked up by another clan if you do well.
Some of you are not really listening to what people are saying. Such as the balance for clan issue.. Some people think that this will somehow make the game less fun or unbalanced for pub play. This is a possible chance.. Yes. But is doubtful...
There is more a chance that if the game is made better (balanced and fun if we can get away with it) at high levels of play, that the game will become better at low level play also.
Why? Because balancing the game at a high level of play is the most effective way to get balance in the first place. Where have people gotten the idea that having a balanced game will take out the fun? I dont think people understand what is ment when the game is made balanced at high level of playing. The general idea is that the game is made balanced by (note: not "for") people that know the game the best, have played all the tactics and generaly know how things go. A balanced high level game will be balanced at low level play also. A balanced game at low level play is not necessary a balanced game at high level play. Its true that this is not always the case, but more often than not, is.
Wouldnt you want the game balanced to people with experiance rather than listening to the person thats played for 2 days or only plays now and then.
With work from top level players ns can become better.
Either way its up to the dev team and they are working on it.. So shh, go play some NS.
Now then... No one read this post and just carry on arguing.. I dare you.
^^
and who was it who was saying "people like you are the reason NS is dying"
reality check, since 1.xx this mod has done nothing but shine and grow bigger and better, we have a community of 30,000 people and growing.
Some of you are not really listening to what people are saying. Such as the balance for clan issue.. Some people think that this will somehow make the game less fun or unbalanced for pub play. This is a possible chance.. Yes. But is doubtful...
There is more a chance that if the game is made better (balanced and fun if we can get away with it) at high levels of play, that the game will become better at low level play also.
Why? Because balancing the game at a high level of play is the most effective way to get balance in the first place. Where have people gotten the idea that having a balanced game will take out the fun? I dont think people understand what is ment when the game is made balanced at high level of playing. The general idea is that the game is made balanced by (note: not "for") people that know the game the best, have played all the tactics and generaly know how things go. A balanced high level game will be balanced at low level play also. A balanced game at low level play is not necessary a balanced game at high level play. Its true that this is not always the case, but more often than not, is.
Wouldnt you want the game balanced to people with experiance rather than listening to the person thats played for 2 days or only plays now and then.
With work from top level players ns can become better.
Either way its up to the dev team and they are working on it.. So shh, go play some NS.
Now then... No one read this post and just carry on arguing.. I dare you. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
*Applause*
Never, I mean NEVER say that again.
Teamwork on a pub is no where near anything seen in clan play. If you don't believe me get 6 of your best people from your favorite server you reg on and play in CAL.
It's crazy fun trying to kill off 10 aliens charging your area trying to take it when you hear your squad mates frantic and sound of gun fire and biting... Too much fun. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
a regular on a regular only server? That sort of defeats the purpose of playing on a public server to me.
For instance one night I was playing last week I happened to join one of these so called "reg only" servers to only be alienated and looked over by the commander.
It's fun to play NS if people know what they're doing, but being in a clan means you are in a consistant enviroment with other players who know what their doing. You're in it together and there is little doubt to that. Whereas on your average pub, lets say Lone's Peak, there is a variety of people playing with varying levels of determination to play the game rather then a hang out or to make some frags.
You can enjoy yourself in clan, but there will always be times of stress. It doesn't always have to be.
Obviously you have no idea what your talking about. Except in matchs most scrims chat is just people freaking around at the top lvl.
If we're supposed to balance for clan play then why are you advocating those changes?
Do onos see much use in clan play? Does redemption get used a lot in clan play? Fade carapace is common, I'll give you that, but if we're supposed to balance for clan play then where are you getting these other changes from?
Or is this because you're getting tired of playing on pubs and seeing people use these features?
I don't get it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hit the nail right square on the head.
Another case of "i'm so pro, how can they kill me?!?!"
"OMG it must be their upgrades <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> "
He is being self destructive with this thread, looks like he doesn't like that people are killing him in the game, due to these upgrades.
Let people play how they want to play, not like they are going to care what you think of them now is it?
Would be like threatening someone with physical violence in a game... on line... on some server far far away, without knowing where that person lives..
Pointless.
The balance suggestions he states are odd. They seem pointless for clan play <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The game truely shines when you have a full server of +25.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You realise at 25 players - assuming marines have the exra there are 12 aliens. For that, the marines need only have one RT to gain the same res per tick as aliens with 2 RTs - meaning if the marines have 50% of the RTs on the map, their res flow will be HUGELY more than the Aliens. Sounds like you like to play one sided marine victories, or extrememly long alien ones :/
1. We're not all bastards who only care about ourselves, e-gos and winning despite ismalis (hilarious) ideas about us.
2i) All clanners have in the past exclusively played JUST public NS like yourself, we know where you're coming from
2ii) We have however also experienced clan play and prefer it. Have you noticed how nearly every person who tries clan play prefers it to public play? We're not a brainwashing cult, people do honestly prefer it.
3) We all play NS for the same reason: we all want to have fun.
4) At the risk of sounding egotistical - generally speaking, we have a better understanding of the individual classes, strategies and tactics than your average player. This stems from playing in a competitive enviroment.
N1Rampage: I don't know if you've ever been in a clan but i'm guessing you haven't. Honestly, teamwork on a pub doesn't even go as far as knowing where to go at the start of the round. You have limited co-ordination and things are very unorganised. I'm a regular on the YO-clan and LM servers which both have large regular player bases. I play there often and i've experienced both public and clanplay teamwork, trust me when i say they don't compare.
I'm willing to bet that after a scrim you'd think differently too. Nearly everyone does. If you read my old posts i was just like you but after one PCW with a low skilled clan i was hooked. Competitive NS is EVERYTHING you want from NS, you're just letting your misconceptions cloud your views. I'm so confident with this that i'll invite you to play with my clan, i can guarentee you'll love it.
Being balanced by clanners doesn't mean it'll not be fun for your average player anymore. We still play the same game, we both play to have fun despite ismalis preconceptions, we're all nice guys who just want to make the game enjoyable for everyone.
<agreement post>
play on surftown with a couple of mates, it's the most fun thing ever.
This doesn't follow at all.
As a thought experiment: Imagine a game balanced for highly skilled players.
It's balanced in such a way that by performing certain trick moves of the marine, you can get up to a high point and hit a button that instantly gives the full team HA in the first minute.
The alien team is then powered up to such a degree as to be able to handle a HA equipped marine team within the first minute.
Players with high skill levels play the game, see that yeah, they get up there, do the trick, then go stomping down with their HA and have a rip-roaring good time fighting the buffed aliens. They all declare it balanced and it gets released to the pub scene.
Of course then the players with low skill levels can't get up there, and get royally stomped by the aliens every single time, even if they're playing an underskilled alien team. People get justifiably torqued at the "imbalance" and leave.
Can a game be balanced at high and low levels? I think so yes.
Does it being balanced at one level automagically imply it's balanced at another? No.
Do we need to balance for both? Absolutely.
If you balance the game for clan play, surprisingly it is also balanced for public play. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's so untrue. The only way that could be true is either:
a) If there were equal bonuses from teamwork on each side and if each side had the same logistical issues.
or
b) The benefit's from teamwork outweighed the difficulty of co-ordination.
Co-ordination is easier from the marine perspective on a pub because you have one guy holding the reins. Besides which, kharaa have to wait till hive 2 before a lot of their interlocking abilities come into play. Result? Marine wins on anything but the most incompetent of servers.
The most plausible way to deal with this is to buff individual kharaa e.g. skulk hp/hitbox, gorge spit, lerk flight, etc. and reduce the effectiveness of their complimentary abilities, e.g. umbra. Sadly, that removes some of the most interesting and rewarding aspects of NS (i.e. teamplay).
TBPFH, I'd rather have seen marines develop a greater need for interdependance, but I guess that isn't as marketable as self-interest.
[edit]spelling[/edit]
I would think if there was a possibility of obtaining HA within the first minute then there are obvious balance issues for the marines to be worked out in the first place.
When scientists do experiements they control variables, temperature, PH, contamination, they create conditions and then maintain them. If balancing NS was an experiment then what you get is this: Competitive play - equal skills, specialists doing specific roles, game being played to full potential. Public play: a random selection of people who can either suck terribly or be the best thing ever. No variables are controlled and as such any results you get are totally invalid and represent absolutely nothing.
In competitive play ns_veil is a marine biased map, aliens hardly ever win a round unless there is a large skill difference between the two clans. In public play, the stats gathered from lunixmonster show that aliens have a 2:1 ratio of wins. Which stats do you think are truely representative of map balance? The ones in a controlled enviroment or the ones from a random enviroment? I know which i listened to.
EDIT: i balanced ns_eclipse and ns_veil for competitive play. Pubbers still love them and say they're balanced.
When scientists do experiements they control variables, temperature, PH, contamination, they create conditions and then maintain them. If balancing NS was an experiment then what you get is this: Competitive play - equal skills, specialists doing specific roles, game being played to full potential. Public play: a random selection of people who can either suck terribly or be the best thing ever. No variables are controlled and as such any results you get are totally invalid and represent absolutely nothing.
In competitive play ns_veil is a marine biased map, aliens hardly ever win a round unless there is a large skill difference between the two clans. In public play, the stats gathered from lunixmonster show that aliens have a 2:1 ratio of wins. Which stats do you think are truely representative of map balance? The ones in a controlled enviroment or the ones from a random enviroment? I know which i listened to.
EDIT: i balanced ns_eclipse and ns_veil for competitive play. Pubbers still love them and say they're balanced. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
[Edit]Changed to make more sense and sound less harsh[/Edit]
The penultimate paragraph is fair enough, but the first two are totally wibble, ptwang hatstand. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo-->
"A cat has for legs. A dog has for legs. Therefore a dog is a cat."
That is a clear and logical statement. It's still meaningless.
I would think if there was a possibility of obtaining HA within the first minute then there are obvious balance issues for the marines to be worked out in the first place. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I chose that as an example because it's obvious.
How's this for a little less obvious: up fade speed (both blink and normal) by 50%, narrow fade cone of fire by 50%, and double swipe damage, then give the marines adequate bonuses to compensate for a skilled player using this buffed fade.
Balanced at the high skill level, but at the low skill level? Combine the increased speed with narrower cone of fire means the lower skilled fade almost never hits. Meanwhile, the marines still receive the benefits of their "compensatory" buffs.
Now as for the argument about it being impossible to balance for pub play, nobody ever said the task was easy, but there are ways. First test people to determine their general level of play, and then assign them to test groups. When released to the general public, take a lot of statistical measures.
The very fact that a map is biased one way when highly skilled and the other way when lower skilled goes to prove my point exactly. Obviously there's something in that map that higher skilled players on the one side can take advantage of and swing it their way, that the lower skilled players can't. The map was balanced for one set of players (presumably those in the middle) and now both ends suffer.
This is the exact problem with people saying "Balance it for the clans!" or "Balance it for the pubs!" They're both wrong. You have to balance it for everyone or your driving one of the groups away.