<!--QuoteBegin-Shockwave+Jan 13 2005, 04:20 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Shockwave @ Jan 13 2005, 04:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Public play is where you <b>ALL</b> came from, at some point. One balance relies on the other. It's probably not possible to make the game perfect at all levels, but to try to balance one at the expense of <b>either</b> is long-term suicide. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I read the complete thread and I even don’t understand where the problem is? My point of view is balancing is not about to make the game easier for the casual gamer and not about restrict competitive play. Balancing is about to make both sides equal in the ability to win the game. The only problem I see is that Natural Selection is balanced for 6vs6 and not for the usual larger pub teams.
And to say “clan play > pub play” is imho ignorant. Pub play offers a different style of playing the game. Not that one side is better that the other but what side you prefer depends of you. I enjoy pub a lot because you need also other skills like communication and social skills.
<!--QuoteBegin-MrRadicalEd+Jan 13 2005, 07:56 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrRadicalEd @ Jan 13 2005, 07:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Spooge+Jan 13 2005, 07:26 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Spooge @ Jan 13 2005, 07:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Natural-Selection shouldn't be dumbed down or adjusted because a portion of players just can't grasp the concept of team work, or understand that some situations require swift envolvment or else everything goes South of the border. It's like what MrBen has been saying all along: Public play contains too many variables to worry about, whereas in competitive play the focus is on gameplay mechanics directly and you don't have to question a players' ability to play the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> here here.
you cant balance a game to individual players skill levels. even if the mechanics themselves are dead even, aside from a small difference here or there, some players will always pass the rest. and some will always be left behind. its the nature of the game.
One issue that havent been discussed, is how to raise the public players playing standard.
1. Location names... everyone knows where eclipse hive is on Ns_eclipse... or.. NO, they dont. New players dont know where that is. They dont recieve ANY help from the game, other than the present location they are in... and if you didnt remember the way you went, what help is that.....
Put any expert 1337 clanner on ANY map, where they dont know the locations on the map, where they dont know chokepoints and dont know how to come from point A to point B.. this would actually look a little like pub play..<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->(As in.... OMG.. TEH HIVE IS UNDER ATTACK.. GET HERE ASAP... a little later... OMG, U freaking NOOOOOOOBS.. and a moment later.. player XX has left the game.... typical clanner reaction in public games...)
2. The gestate system doesnt show enough information ingame. And as a new player, things like "gorge", "evolve", "fade" doesnt say much.. even less does the two big colored bars to the left and right.. and what are those teeth?? What is focus.. what does it do.. what is leap?? and why does pll complain about that beautifull structure I made, after looong work... and why does it make me white...??) New players have NO chance on any NS map to do much constructive.. even less, if all are new players on one of the teams. Then comes the killing, to confuse even more.....
This list could be a lot longer.... but the 2 ex. are only made, what the difference is between a clan player and a new public player.
Conclusion: The main reason a clanner can dominate most public games, where hes the only clanner, is due to the fact, he know good locations to be in. He knows how the map is made. He know where the good camping spots is. He knows how to get from A to B. He knows the pros and cons on his moves compared to the surrounding enviroment.
He aint dominating because a fade has 300 hp and 250 armor. He doesnt dominate because the onos has 200 more armor and he doesnt dominate because the SG shoots 10 bullets at one time.
So where ever the balancing is made, it doesnt criple gameplay for either clanners or pubbers. Pubbers can reach the same skill level as a clanner - easily, compared aim/skill wise. The ONLY thing where clanplay differs, are the predefined roles, the strategy made etc. etc. The game itself is the same whatever you play on public or in a clan.
I think the game is pretty good balanced atm. Some upgrades have less impact on the game than others. The only truely constant that needs tweeking, is what res permits. Ex. the 0 res upgrade in B6 is a real cool balance adjustment. The SC remaking is a cool balance adjustment. These are small finetune adjustments. They are both benficial for clan play and pub play.
Makes the games way more fun, because of more different skills on pubs. Makes clanplay more interesting, becuase of the new strategies which now is viable.
<!--QuoteBegin-CrueltyIsMyGame+Jan 13 2005, 10:09 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CrueltyIsMyGame @ Jan 13 2005, 10:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Conclusion: The main reason a clanner can dominate most public games, where hes the only clanner, is due to the fact, he know good locations to be in. He knows how the map is made. He know where the good camping spots is. He knows how to get from A to B. He knows the pros and cons on his moves compared to the surrounding enviroment. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> thats not true because a clanner may just have better aim, he maybe able to bunny hop, he may not be a walker fade, and he can probably play overall better than a public player not based on just the environment.
As much as clanners would like to ignore the fact that the pub scene exists, it DOES exist. As much as pubbers would like to ignore the fact that the clanner scene exists, it DOES exist. And regardless of how much you think one or the other is better, we must account for both. Saying one or the other doesn't exist doesn't make it right - or correct.
Please keep this in mind while posting in this thread.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The game must be tested for balance by clans. They're the ones who have the teamwork and abilities to find the strategies that reduce the game to simply whoever picks a certain side wins.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Indeed, they do have those qualities.
However, many of them are only interested in having 'fun' by owning up some random public going 80-5, TRYING to make people accuse them of cheating, TRYING to infuriate newbie pubbers by fading or whatever.
People like this are frequent, and cannot be thought responsible enough for changes in NS.
*edit*
To clarify, there are many great clanners out there who do not do this, I hoped my 'many of' would clearly exclude grouping them as a whole, I'm sorry.
obuhNot Quite Smart at NSJoin Date: 2003-03-31Member: 15072Members, Constellation
I don't want to ignore the fact that the pub scene exists, I just say you shouldn't balance the game based on public play, because of its uncontrollable randomness. Of course public play shouldn't be discarded, but I think the main balancing should be done towards competitive play, and then make some adjustments to accomodate pubs if needed.
You should balance the game for organised play. Pubs are not organised. Balancing for clans won't hurt the public scene. Balancing for public play will hurt clan play. Sorry if it hurts your rabid pubbers heart, but that's the way it is. I don't want to insult people, I just want the best for the game.
<!--QuoteBegin-Skyrage+Jan 13 2005, 05:42 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Skyrage @ Jan 13 2005, 05:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If you wanna take the game to the limit, then start including ALL factors...which in other words mean, start taking public games into account as well, and not only clan games. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> in the design of the game certainly we should try to make it fun, enjoyable, amazing, sexy etc
however. ns in a sense is an rts. and to balance an rts, you don't look at people with no idea what they're doing. you look at the skilled players who will annihilate the competition with their overpoweredness.
in reality i don't think there is really this "balance the game for pubs", i think another poster had it right, put thusly:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you balance the game for clan play, surprisingly it is also balanced for public play.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
there will always be someone better than you. even if you are never able figure out and seize upon the imbalance factors, someone else will.
regardless of how ns may be improved, perhaps teamsize unrestricted balance or lowered skill thresholds for certain skill heavy classes, the only way to find an imbalance is to push the game to the max, so long as it is within dev preferences
the people who will push the limits of the game will be by and large the good players
in the quest for game balance, plz ignore personal character flaws (including my own I suppose) and realize that high level play is the way
<!--QuoteBegin-mr drug lord+Jan 13 2005, 02:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (mr drug lord @ Jan 13 2005, 02:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> lowered skill thresholds <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I think this is indeed what should be attempted
there will always be a skill difference, and unfortunately that skill difference has led to divergent games
maybe if we somehow made things less difficult, without sacrificing depth. may some act of god help us
<!--QuoteBegin-mr drug lord+Jan 13 2005, 01:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (mr drug lord @ Jan 13 2005, 01:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-mr drug lord+Jan 13 2005, 02:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (mr drug lord @ Jan 13 2005, 02:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> lowered skill thresholds <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think this is indeed what should be attempted
there will always be a skill difference, and unfortunately that skill difference has led to divergent games
maybe if we somehow made things less difficult, without sacrificing depth. may some act of god help us <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah lets just give everyone that can't aim an aimbot.
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
<!--QuoteBegin-slipknotkthx+Jan 13 2005, 05:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (slipknotkthx @ Jan 13 2005, 05:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-mr drug lord+Jan 13 2005, 01:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (mr drug lord @ Jan 13 2005, 01:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-mr drug lord+Jan 13 2005, 02:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (mr drug lord @ Jan 13 2005, 02:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> lowered skill thresholds <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think this is indeed what should be attempted
there will always be a skill difference, and unfortunately that skill difference has led to divergent games
maybe if we somehow made things less difficult, without sacrificing depth. may some act of god help us <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah lets just give everyone that can't aim an aimbot.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> "without sacrificing depth"
Make the game less difficult to learn, but not less difficult to master. This would not make a newbie as good as a veteran; it would merely allow a newbie to play the same game, essentially, as a veteran.
<!--QuoteBegin-a civilian+Jan 13 2005, 10:57 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (a civilian @ Jan 13 2005, 10:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-slipknotkthx+Jan 13 2005, 05:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (slipknotkthx @ Jan 13 2005, 05:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-mr drug lord+Jan 13 2005, 01:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (mr drug lord @ Jan 13 2005, 01:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-mr drug lord+Jan 13 2005, 02:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (mr drug lord @ Jan 13 2005, 02:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> lowered skill thresholds <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think this is indeed what should be attempted
there will always be a skill difference, and unfortunately that skill difference has led to divergent games
maybe if we somehow made things less difficult, without sacrificing depth. may some act of god help us <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah lets just give everyone that can't aim an aimbot.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> "without sacrificing depth"
Make the game less difficult to learn, but not less difficult to master. This would not make a newbie as good as a veteran; it would merely allow a newbie to play the same game, essentially, as a veteran. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> then i'd like my time back from playing this game.
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
edited January 2005
You don't seem to get the point. Make the game less difficult to learn, but <i>not less difficult to master</i>.
There is a difference. A player must learn to play before he can actually play as intended. Mastering is where the true skill lies.
For instance, learning to play the fade involves things like learning the ability to switch weapons quickly, and learning to use blink for transportation. Mastering the fade, on the other hand, involves things like learning tactics and perfecting one's control of the creature.
A player who has not learned to play the fade cannot play it, at least not the way it was intended. This player can play a 'walkerfade', but that's essentially an entirely different - and entirely less powerful - class than what the veterans play.
Fading took me forever to learn. Never started to learn it until the end of 2.0 came to a close. I would get so mad when I blinked and got stuck in the walls (yay 1.0). Kept me from ever going fade for a long time.
<!--QuoteBegin-mr drug lord+Jan 13 2005, 02:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (mr drug lord @ Jan 13 2005, 02:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-mr drug lord+Jan 13 2005, 02:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (mr drug lord @ Jan 13 2005, 02:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> lowered skill thresholds <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think this is indeed what should be attempted
there will always be a skill difference, and unfortunately that skill difference has led to divergent games
maybe if we somehow made things less difficult, without sacrificing depth. may some act of god help us <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> this is what could ultimately kill the game sooner than it would die on its own....
an extreme case, but, for example, if someone has really bad aim, making it easier to shoot/hit the target(s) isnt going to help, and makes it less entertaining for others at the same time.
as long as everything has at least SOME kind of counter from the other in some form, then the rest is up to the skill of the individual players, as it should be. if someone doesnt have the patience to learn the tricks somehow, has bad aim, or just plain isnt that good, the entire system it works on shouldnt be modded to fit just that player, or that group of players. they just have to be left behind if they cant keep up, otherwise everything else drops in quality and suffers more often than not in very negative ways.
therein i think is the big balancing problem with NS. it doesnt seem to be a matter of who has what weapons, but 'whether each can counter, and be countered' by the other, and from there left to the players to actually pull off. web + skulks = (usually) dead JPers. however, whether the web is utilized properly isnt based on the actual method of being produced, but the gorge using it placing it right.
and yes, i have heard people call web cheesy.... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Caleb+Jan 14 2005, 09:17 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Caleb @ Jan 14 2005, 09:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-mr drug lord+Jan 13 2005, 02:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (mr drug lord @ Jan 13 2005, 02:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-mr drug lord+Jan 13 2005, 02:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (mr drug lord @ Jan 13 2005, 02:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> lowered skill thresholds <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think this is indeed what should be attempted
there will always be a skill difference, and unfortunately that skill difference has led to divergent games
maybe if we somehow made things less difficult, without sacrificing depth. may some act of god help us <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> this is what could ultimately kill the game sooner than it would die on its own....
an extreme case, but, for example, if someone has really bad aim, making it easier to shoot/hit the target(s) isnt going to help, and makes it less entertaining for others at the same time.
as long as everything has at least SOME kind of counter from the other in some form, then the rest is up to the skill of the individual players, as it should be. if someone doesnt have the patience to learn the tricks somehow, has bad aim, or just plain isnt that good, the entire system it works on shouldnt be modded to fit just that player, or that group of players. they just have to be left behind if they cant keep up, otherwise everything else drops in quality and suffers more often than not in very negative ways.
therein i think is the big balancing problem with NS. it doesnt seem to be a matter of who has what weapons, but 'whether each can counter, and be countered' by the other, and from there left to the players to actually pull off. web + skulks = (usually) dead JPers. however, whether the web is utilized properly isnt based on the actual method of being produced, but the gorge using it placing it right.
and yes, i have heard people call web cheesy.... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
just my view of it, though... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well I think the idea was to make the fundamentals of the game easier to grasp, such as how to actually coordinate your clicks so you can fade, and make it clearer what your objective is etc. Not to make it easier to aim or time your movements, or take away strategical/tactical elements.
I'm all in favour of this... what we lack is actual ideas on how to do it. Gogo constructive posts on the subject <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
why not start by accusing anyone who takes even 1 hp off ya of being a hax0r. cause no one could ever be so audacious as to be better than ME..surely...
riight? *cough* silence* nervous tension in the air*
annyways....one thing might be to actually get an official manual ffs. the last one was like, what? 2 years ago? would it be so bloody hard to appoint a new dev to oversee the construction of a new manual?
if it's already on the way....then good work <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
gotta cover all my base's ya know. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I would wager the majority of people inclined to read the manual would be on this site. I would also wager that the majority of people who fail to grasp the concept of NS would NOT helped by the manual even if they DID read it.
<!--QuoteBegin-Albino+Jan 12 2005, 06:23 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Albino @ Jan 12 2005, 06:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-N1Rampage+Jan 12 2005, 01:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (N1Rampage @ Jan 12 2005, 01:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> but if you are a reg on a reg only server, you get more than twice the players AND the teamwork. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Never, I mean NEVER say that again.
Teamwork on a pub is no where near anything seen in clan play. If you don't believe me get 6 of your best people from your favorite server you reg on and play in CAL. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> See that light coming from behind your curtains? That's sunshine, it's found OUTSIDE. Try it sometime and get a clue. Just because you are in a 'clan' doesn't make you better than a pub community.
The best part of community reg play is that you do what you feel comfortable with and help out where ever you can. And wait... you hear that over the mics and speakers? Is that laughter? THATS FORBIDDEN BECAUSE YOU ARE AN INTERNET TOUGH GUY WITH SK1LLZ! Learn that this is only a game and clan play has no purpose. When plans fail (which they always do), flexibility is your friend to slow down and case attrition to the enemy when fighting back. When everthing is set in stone, the enemy can EASILY ruin the plan by doing somethign random.
Besides, I could easily say the NSA Reg. Game on Fri/Sat could whoop any clan, back in the day. And why 6 people? The game is horrible with 6 people on one side. It's like playing almost by yourself. Get 30 people! That's crazy fun and can commity to suicidial charges and excessive killing and chasing! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Nothing more fun than seeing 10 aliens nailing the crap out of all the marines in a hive! Like some sort of last holy and pure war of two extreme, true fun!
Except the game isnt balanced for 15vs15, and if two remotely good teams were to play each other in that environment I can promise you marines would win 100% of the times.
I'd even be prepared to get a team of 15 together to meet your choice team of 15.
How can you even question that clans have better teamwork than even reg servers? Clans have 6-8 people constantly playing together, analysing their games to improve and trying to find the best strategies/refine tactics. Pubs are a random mass of people doing what they please.
See that bookshelf behind you? Those are books you see, read some and you might gain a clue.
<!--QuoteBegin-milosis+Jan 14 2005, 11:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (milosis @ Jan 14 2005, 11:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> lol 15 v 15 = all the skulks die in the begining, then 14 marines walk into the hive and spawncamp. comm drops an armory and shotguns for the hive if its not already lmged down. gg
15 vs 15... lol... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Don't knock it till' you try it! It's friggen crazy! Some people say it's unbalanced as usualll, and I get laughed at, but when the the skill stacking is stopped, certain maps are played, and people don't do bugs and exploits, the game play REALLY does come out! Like roasting garlic and using it to make maranara sauce! So much better, X10.
And I do enjoy reading, I'm currently downing Hollywood, Interupted. Good stuff, Gary Busey is a total nut job, as are most celebrities... too funny.
Heh, 15 vs 15 works when the marines can't aim. I'm not trying to be mean but its the truth. Sometimes I join certain 32 players servers and 2 skulks are able to kill 8 marines, that's how much they suck. The entire marine team basically relies on turrets to kill for them, and in the end it comes down to an onos vs turret farm lamefest. Have you ever tried clan play before, n1rampage? I think you'll find it a refreshing change from those huge 15v15 servers that you join.
Comments
Public play is where you <b>ALL</b> came from, at some point. One balance relies on the other. It's probably not possible to make the game perfect at all levels, but to try to balance one at the expense of <b>either</b> is long-term suicide. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
100% ACK <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I read the complete thread and I even don’t understand where the problem is? My point of view is balancing is not about to make the game easier for the casual gamer and not about restrict competitive play. Balancing is about to make both sides equal in the ability to win the game. The only problem I see is that Natural Selection is balanced for 6vs6 and not for the usual larger pub teams.
And to say “clan play > pub play” is imho ignorant. Pub play offers a different style of playing the game. Not that one side is better that the other but what side you prefer depends of you. I enjoy pub a lot because you need also other skills like communication and social skills.
here here.
you cant balance a game to individual players skill levels. even if the mechanics themselves are dead even, aside from a small difference here or there, some players will always pass the rest. and some will always be left behind. its the nature of the game.
-increase alien spawn rate depending on # of players (whihc they have done in beta 6)
-and scale marine arms lab upgrades costs depending on # of players ( 50% more with 12 marines
cuz aliens currently get raped on servers with large #of players
1. Location names... everyone knows where eclipse hive is on Ns_eclipse... or.. NO, they dont. New players dont know where that is. They dont recieve ANY help from the game, other than the present location they are in... and if you didnt remember the way you went, what help is that.....
Put any expert 1337 clanner on ANY map, where they dont know the locations on the map, where they dont know chokepoints and dont know how to come from point A to point B.. this would actually look a little like pub play..<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->(As in.... OMG.. TEH HIVE IS UNDER ATTACK.. GET HERE ASAP... a little later... OMG, U freaking NOOOOOOOBS.. and a moment later.. player XX has left the game.... typical clanner reaction in public games...)
2. The gestate system doesnt show enough information ingame. And as a new player, things like "gorge", "evolve", "fade" doesnt say much.. even less does the two big colored bars to the left and right.. and what are those teeth?? What is focus.. what does it do.. what is leap?? and why does pll complain about that beautifull structure I made, after looong work... and why does it make me white...??) New players have NO chance on any NS map to do much constructive.. even less, if all are new players on one of the teams. Then comes the killing, to confuse even more.....
This list could be a lot longer.... but the 2 ex. are only made, what the difference is between a clan player and a new public player.
Conclusion:
The main reason a clanner can dominate most public games, where hes the only clanner, is due to the fact, he know good locations to be in. He knows how the map is made. He know where the good camping spots is. He knows how to get from A to B. He knows the pros and cons on his moves compared to the surrounding enviroment.
He aint dominating because a fade has 300 hp and 250 armor. He doesnt dominate because the onos has 200 more armor and he doesnt dominate because the SG shoots 10 bullets at one time.
So where ever the balancing is made, it doesnt criple gameplay for either clanners or pubbers. Pubbers can reach the same skill level as a clanner - easily, compared aim/skill wise. The ONLY thing where clanplay differs, are the predefined roles, the strategy made etc. etc. The game itself is the same whatever you play on public or in a clan.
I think the game is pretty good balanced atm. Some upgrades have less impact on the game than others. The only truely constant that needs tweeking, is what res permits. Ex. the 0 res upgrade in B6 is a real cool balance adjustment. The SC remaking is a cool balance adjustment. These are small finetune adjustments. They are both benficial for clan play and pub play.
Makes the games way more fun, because of more different skills on pubs.
Makes clanplay more interesting, becuase of the new strategies which now is viable.
It's highly dependant on maps. But that's the kind of small fact that often seems to be ignored in these e-**** waving exercises.
The main reason a clanner can dominate most public games, where hes the only clanner, is due to the fact, he know good locations to be in. He knows how the map is made. He know where the good camping spots is. He knows how to get from A to B. He knows the pros and cons on his moves compared to the surrounding enviroment.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
thats not true because a clanner may just have better aim, he maybe able to bunny hop, he may not be a walker fade, and he can probably play overall better than a public player not based on just the environment.
Please keep this in mind while posting in this thread.
Indeed, they do have those qualities.
However, many of them are only interested in having 'fun' by owning up some random public going 80-5, TRYING to make people accuse them of cheating, TRYING to infuriate newbie pubbers by fading or whatever.
People like this are frequent, and cannot be thought responsible enough for changes in NS.
*edit*
To clarify, there are many great clanners out there who do not do this, I hoped my 'many of' would clearly exclude grouping them as a whole, I'm sorry.
[Edit] Readded my original content, since I think Toothy deserves it... not really sorry I took the flamebait at all.
reduces the chances of me going gray commanding at the ripe old age of 19.
You should balance the game for organised play. Pubs are not organised. Balancing for clans won't hurt the public scene. Balancing for public play will hurt clan play. Sorry if it hurts your rabid pubbers heart, but that's the way it is. I don't want to insult people, I just want the best for the game.
in the design of the game certainly we should try to make it fun, enjoyable, amazing, sexy etc
however. ns in a sense is an rts. and to balance an rts, you don't look at people with no idea what they're doing. you look at the skilled players who will annihilate the competition with their overpoweredness.
in reality i don't think there is really this "balance the game for pubs", i think another poster had it right, put thusly:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you balance the game for clan play, surprisingly it is also balanced for public play.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
there will always be someone better than you. even if you are never able figure out and seize upon the imbalance factors, someone else will.
there is no such thing as pub only balance.
the people who will push the limits of the game will be by and large the good players
in the quest for game balance, plz ignore personal character flaws (including my own I suppose) and realize that high level play is the way
I think this is indeed what should be attempted
there will always be a skill difference, and unfortunately that skill difference has led to divergent games
maybe if we somehow made things less difficult, without sacrificing depth. may some act of god help us
I think this is indeed what should be attempted
there will always be a skill difference, and unfortunately that skill difference has led to divergent games
maybe if we somehow made things less difficult, without sacrificing depth. may some act of god help us <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah lets just give everyone that can't aim an aimbot.
I think this is indeed what should be attempted
there will always be a skill difference, and unfortunately that skill difference has led to divergent games
maybe if we somehow made things less difficult, without sacrificing depth. may some act of god help us <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah lets just give everyone that can't aim an aimbot.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"without sacrificing depth"
Make the game less difficult to learn, but not less difficult to master. This would not make a newbie as good as a veteran; it would merely allow a newbie to play the same game, essentially, as a veteran.
I think this is indeed what should be attempted
there will always be a skill difference, and unfortunately that skill difference has led to divergent games
maybe if we somehow made things less difficult, without sacrificing depth. may some act of god help us <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah lets just give everyone that can't aim an aimbot.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"without sacrificing depth"
Make the game less difficult to learn, but not less difficult to master. This would not make a newbie as good as a veteran; it would merely allow a newbie to play the same game, essentially, as a veteran. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
then i'd like my time back from playing this game.
There is a difference. A player must learn to play before he can actually play as intended. Mastering is where the true skill lies.
For instance, learning to play the fade involves things like learning the ability to switch weapons quickly, and learning to use blink for transportation. Mastering the fade, on the other hand, involves things like learning tactics and perfecting one's control of the creature.
A player who has not learned to play the fade cannot play it, at least not the way it was intended. This player can play a 'walkerfade', but that's essentially an entirely different - and entirely less powerful - class than what the veterans play.
I think this is indeed what should be attempted
there will always be a skill difference, and unfortunately that skill difference has led to divergent games
maybe if we somehow made things less difficult, without sacrificing depth. may some act of god help us <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
this is what could ultimately kill the game sooner than it would die on its own....
an extreme case, but, for example, if someone has really bad aim, making it easier to shoot/hit the target(s) isnt going to help, and makes it less entertaining for others at the same time.
as long as everything has at least SOME kind of counter from the other in some form, then the rest is up to the skill of the individual players, as it should be. if someone doesnt have the patience to learn the tricks somehow, has bad aim, or just plain isnt that good, the entire system it works on shouldnt be modded to fit just that player, or that group of players. they just have to be left behind if they cant keep up, otherwise everything else drops in quality and suffers more often than not in very negative ways.
therein i think is the big balancing problem with NS. it doesnt seem to be a matter of who has what weapons, but 'whether each can counter, and be countered' by the other, and from there left to the players to actually pull off. web + skulks = (usually) dead JPers. however, whether the web is utilized properly isnt based on the actual method of being produced, but the gorge using it placing it right.
and yes, i have heard people call web cheesy.... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
just my view of it, though...
I think this is indeed what should be attempted
there will always be a skill difference, and unfortunately that skill difference has led to divergent games
maybe if we somehow made things less difficult, without sacrificing depth. may some act of god help us <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this is what could ultimately kill the game sooner than it would die on its own....
an extreme case, but, for example, if someone has really bad aim, making it easier to shoot/hit the target(s) isnt going to help, and makes it less entertaining for others at the same time.
as long as everything has at least SOME kind of counter from the other in some form, then the rest is up to the skill of the individual players, as it should be. if someone doesnt have the patience to learn the tricks somehow, has bad aim, or just plain isnt that good, the entire system it works on shouldnt be modded to fit just that player, or that group of players. they just have to be left behind if they cant keep up, otherwise everything else drops in quality and suffers more often than not in very negative ways.
therein i think is the big balancing problem with NS. it doesnt seem to be a matter of who has what weapons, but 'whether each can counter, and be countered' by the other, and from there left to the players to actually pull off. web + skulks = (usually) dead JPers. however, whether the web is utilized properly isnt based on the actual method of being produced, but the gorge using it placing it right.
and yes, i have heard people call web cheesy.... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
just my view of it, though... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well I think the idea was to make the fundamentals of the game easier to grasp, such as how to actually coordinate your clicks so you can fade, and make it clearer what your objective is etc. Not to make it easier to aim or time your movements, or take away strategical/tactical elements.
I'm all in favour of this... what we lack is actual ideas on how to do it. Gogo constructive posts on the subject <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
riight? *cough* silence* nervous tension in the air*
annyways....one thing might be to actually get an official manual ffs. the last one was like, what? 2 years ago? would it be so bloody hard to appoint a new dev to oversee the construction of a new manual?
if it's already on the way....then good work <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
gotta cover all my base's ya know. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Never, I mean NEVER say that again.
Teamwork on a pub is no where near anything seen in clan play. If you don't believe me get 6 of your best people from your favorite server you reg on and play in CAL. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
See that light coming from behind your curtains? That's sunshine, it's found OUTSIDE. Try it sometime and get a clue. Just because you are in a 'clan' doesn't make you better than a pub community.
The best part of community reg play is that you do what you feel comfortable with and help out where ever you can. And wait... you hear that over the mics and speakers? Is that laughter? THATS FORBIDDEN BECAUSE YOU ARE AN INTERNET TOUGH GUY WITH SK1LLZ! Learn that this is only a game and clan play has no purpose. When plans fail (which they always do), flexibility is your friend to slow down and case attrition to the enemy when fighting back. When everthing is set in stone, the enemy can EASILY ruin the plan by doing somethign random.
Besides, I could easily say the NSA Reg. Game on Fri/Sat could whoop any clan, back in the day. And why 6 people? The game is horrible with 6 people on one side. It's like playing almost by yourself. Get 30 people! That's crazy fun and can commity to suicidial charges and excessive killing and chasing! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Nothing more fun than seeing 10 aliens nailing the crap out of all the marines in a hive! Like some sort of last holy and pure war of two extreme, true fun!
I'd even be prepared to get a team of 15 together to meet your choice team of 15.
How can you even question that clans have better teamwork than even reg servers? Clans have 6-8 people constantly playing together, analysing their games to improve and trying to find the best strategies/refine tactics. Pubs are a random mass of people doing what they please.
See that bookshelf behind you? Those are books you see, read some and you might gain a clue.
15 vs 15... lol... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't knock it till' you try it! It's friggen crazy! Some people say it's unbalanced as usualll, and I get laughed at, but when the the skill stacking is stopped, certain maps are played, and people don't do bugs and exploits, the game play REALLY does come out! Like roasting garlic and using it to make maranara sauce! So much better, X10.
And I do enjoy reading, I'm currently downing Hollywood, Interupted. Good stuff, Gary Busey is a total nut job, as are most celebrities... too funny.