<!--QuoteBegin-CForrester+Jan 18 2005, 05:43 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CForrester @ Jan 18 2005, 05:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <b>[1]</b>Unforunately, no. They don't. I can't tell you how many people have responded with "Bull****!! You are so full of ****!" when I tried to explain what the swastika means.
<b>[2]</b>I don't see why not. It's just a symbol. I'm willing to explain myself every time someone asks why I have a swastika drawn on my notebook or something. If they don't understand my reasons, that's just too bad. I do not exist to cater to someone else. If they refuse to see that the swastika doesn't necessarily refer to the Nazi regime, then they don't have to pay attention to my swastikas or even me, if they wish. I'll understand.
<b>[3]</b>But that doesn't mean that the old meanings can no longer be used. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> [1] Well, my sentiments on those people is that they're ignorant.
[2] You go ahead and do that. Meanwhile, all the people that see it but do not comment will build up an image of you as a nazi in their mind. Which is why the symbol isn't used anymore. (Its offensive-ness isn't for me to judge, as I'm far too young)
[3] Uh, sure they can be used, but unless you can speak to everyone who sees it and explain to them why the hell you just drew a nazi symbol on your book, the same thing as in [2] happens.
<b>ninja edit</b> It all comes down to this: You did not experience the holocaust, so you have no right to judge whether an image that is directly related to it(ie, the swastika) is offensive or not.
<!--QuoteBegin-Align+Jan 18 2005, 12:16 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Align @ Jan 18 2005, 12:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It all comes down to this: You did not experience the holocaust, so you have no right to judge whether an image that is directly related to it(ie, the swastika) is offensive or not. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> jsut because you wern't there doesn't mean you cannot have an opinion. If thats the case then YOU can have no opnion on anything which did not involve you directly.
<!--QuoteBegin-Align+Jan 18 2005, 12:16 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Align @ Jan 18 2005, 12:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->[2] You go ahead and do that. Meanwhile, all the people that see it but do not comment will build up an image of you as a nazi in their mind. Which is why the symbol isn't used anymore. (Its offensive-ness isn't for me to judge, as I'm far too young)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> They can if they like. I don't care what other people think of me. I'm happy with myself and my friends.
I'm sure that people have enough of an image about me built up, considering I'm a male with unkempt hair that goes down to my waist and I walk everywhere in bare feet when it's warm enough.
It doesn't hurt me if people avoid me or make assumptions. Their opinions influence my life and everyone is, of course, entitled to their own.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->[3] Uh, sure they can be used, but unless you can speak to everyone who sees it and explain to them why the hell you just drew a nazi symbol on your book, the same thing as in [2] happens.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If they want to know, I'm quite glad to explain it. If they don't, that's their own business.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>ninja edit</b> It all comes down to this: You did not experience the holocaust, so you have no right to judge whether an image that is directly related to it(ie, the swastika) is offensive or not.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I never said that it wasn't offensive to anyone. I knew what people thought when I started using the swastika (both for its original meaning and as a personal symbol).
What I <b>DID</b> say, however, was that they can be offended. But I don't care if they are. They aren't required to be offended and they certainly don't have to pay any attention to me if things I do, say or believe in offend them.
People get offended. <i>I</i> even get offended by some things. BUT. If something or someone offends me, I just don't pay attention to it. Granted, it wouldn't be ideal to do this for some things. (Racism being an example. If those who were offended by it didn't step up and do something, things would be even worse than they are now.) And I do agree with doing something about something that offends you, but ONLY if it is affecting your live.
Someone drawing a swastika on their hand, their notebook, their wallet, etc... has no effect on your life. Should Christians not be allowed to draw their symbols because it offends someone? (I don't seem to recall anyone pressing to ban Christian symbols when their child was molested by a priest.)
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->just curious: would using an avatar or sig containing a swastika be offensive to the forums?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I've actually been wondering about this, myself.
The swastika used by Indians, and the swastika used by Nazis are both just symbols. People can communicate the messages presented by the symbols in other ways. In the end, the swastika is just a symbol. It's not the lifeblood of a community, nor will its removal spell certain death for those around it. Let it go. It's not a big deal.
If the United States of America were to elect a Hitler clone into office, and he began doing exactly the same thing as Hitler did in World War II, then yes, the American flag would be hated. As it stands, America doesn't do that. If it did, I would not be surprised in the least if the American flag were to become a hated symbol. And if that were the case, I wouldn't wave the flag around anymore; I would be ashamed of what it represented.
I also know that at this moment there are many who hate the American flag, although for reasons much more tame than those against the swastika. I resolve this situation by not waving the American flag around them (not that I do that normally). Why instigate a problem? What does it resolve to "educate" people on a silly symbol, when the people have a valid reason to have problems with the symbol? If I don't get my "daily waving" in, do I die? No! This education idea smacks of arrogance. Don't try to fool me by saying one flashes the swastika at offended people for the reason of education. It's obvious the swastika bearer want to shock the viewer, and then look down his or her nose at the offended party because they're not "enlightened". Worrying about a silly symbol is petty. Let it go!
As for the Wolfenstein/DOOM comment, why is it wrong for a person or country to be offended by a symbol and request its removal? Is change only allowed one way? Why is it acceptable to use a symbol that offends others, but unacceptable to <b>not</b> use the symbol around others that are offended? Compromise works both ways!
<b>EDIT:</b> I forgot to include this <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika' target='_blank'>Wikipedia article</a> somewhere in my rant.
That_Annoying_KidSire of TitlesJoin Date: 2003-03-01Member: 14175Members, Constellation
edited January 2005
<!--QuoteBegin-Shockwave+Jan 18 2005, 03:16 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Shockwave @ Jan 18 2005, 03:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I only find it offensive that people jump onto the bandwagon of getting offended any time they see a swastika, anywhere.
1. It's a f***ing geometric shape, get over it. (Remember when DOOM got itself banned in Germany for having a floor pattern of one?)
2. The swastika actually has a long & noble history prior to it's use by nazi Germany. It's a common heraldric emblem for many houses who were forced to dispense with it in the wave of anti-nazi sentiment that has occupied the 20th century.
I don't find it offensive. What I found offensive is people going into graveyards and spraying swastikas on Jewish tombstones.
Now, the fact that it doesn't offend me doesn't mean it doesn't offend others. I can look beyond the symbol and try to think whether it's serious or for a laugh, how stupid the creator is, etc. It's not the symbol as much as the intention.
<!--QuoteBegin-MedHead+Jan 18 2005, 12:38 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MedHead @ Jan 18 2005, 12:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If I don't get my "daily waving" in, do I die? No! This education idea smacks of arrogance. Don't try to fool me by saying one flashes the swastika at offended people for the reason of education. It's obvious the swastika bearer want to shock the viewer, and then look down his or her nose at the offended party because they're not "enlightened". Worrying about a silly symbol is petty. Let it go! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The difference between waving a flag and having a swastika on your notebook is pretty big, though. I don't actively seek out people to draw swastikas by. I have a swastika on my notebook. I drew it for my own reasons, though I am willing to explain it if people see it and ask. I do not, however, stand around on street corners, holding my notebook up and screaming "LOOK AT THIS, I DREW A SWASTIKA".
My participation in this thread started because I was giving advice to someone and explaining how the swastika doesn't offend /everyone/ and still has its old meanings, despite taking on a new one. And I was up for an interesting and mature discussion, so why not? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
it seems that the intention of the picture was to portray the right honorable gubernator as a nazi, though. And it's not really funny. The only funniness I could see (the governator's awesome expression) is ruined in the context. I seriously don't know how it could be humorous to portray him as a nazi.
<!--QuoteBegin-NeonSpyder+Jan 18 2005, 11:49 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NeonSpyder @ Jan 18 2005, 11:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->but i was wondering what you guys thought... poltically incorrect or not?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Arnold is not entirely unconnected to the Nazis, as you can find out by reading this <a href='http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/entertainers/actors/arnold-schwarzenegger/' target='_blank'>short Schwarzenegger biography</a>. Warning: contains pornographic images (of Arnold Schwarzenegger).
<!--QuoteBegin-CForrester+Jan 18 2005, 12:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CForrester @ Jan 18 2005, 12:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The difference between waving a flag and having a swastika on your notebook is pretty big, though. (1) I don't actively seek out people to draw swastikas by. I have a swastika on my notebook. I drew it for my own reasons, though I am willing to explain it if people see it and ask. I do not, however, stand around on street corners, holding my notebook up and screaming "LOOK AT THIS, I DREW A SWASTIKA". (2)
My participation in this thread started because I was giving advice to someone and explaining how the swastika doesn't offend /everyone/ (3) and still has its old meanings, (4) despite taking on a new one. And I was up for an interesting and mature discussion, so why not? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 1. Sorry, I didn't mean to single you out. There was a similar discussion on #naturalselection a month or two ago, and I was writing my post as a pre-emptive measure, or to any of the readers who had the opinion I was describing. I tried to show this by avoiding "You", and using the proper "One" or "He or she", and I avoided quoting any post. Still, I think that worrying about the symbol's "true" meaning is somewhat misguided, since it ignores the torture given to innocent people under that symbol.
2. There are those who do similar things, which is why I was making the comment.
3. It was a world war - it offended a lot of people. Just because it doesn't offend everyone doesn't mean that those who are offended are wrong. That's why I have a problem with those who seem to seek out those who are offended in order to "enlighten" the offended. I'm not saying you're doing that, but I do know there are some out there who do. The Bible teaches that it is much better to compromise for someone who is offended by something trivial than to require the offended to change their thoughts on something that is trivial. This was in reference to meat being offered to false gods, and the eating of that meat. Some people were offended by such a practice, and some weren't. Paul said it was much wiser to not invite people over offended by such practice, and then eat the meat that was offensive, but rather to find meat that wasn't offered to idols to make the offended person feel welcome. I think that practice applies to this as well. Why would one want to offend another for such a minor, trivial thing? There is no reason, no purpose important enough that it requires it.
4. Well, while this may be true, it doesn't negate the millions who died under that symbol. While I understand your position, and I'm not saying you're wrong for using the symbol, please don't begin to become elitist like others and use it for purposes of shocking only. It's only a symbol, in the end.
As I said, I can understand your position. If terrorists were to don the American flag and use it during a world war in which they fought, I'd be uncertain what I would do with the American flag. Since the American flag is the flag of my country, I'm proud of it, as I can see the history behind it. Seeing it used for an evil purpose would be dissappointing. Suddenly the history of my flag would be replaced with an evil group of people, who wanted to kill others. Suddenly the flag Americans wore on their clothing meant "death". If this were to ever happen, I think it would be in the United States best interest to replace the flag, but I think I would be in the minority with that feeling. However, I would be certain not to try to go out and offend others with the flag with the sole purpose of "enlightning" (in the arrogant sense). It is, after all, just a symbol. America isn't the country it is solely on the flag, but because of the people who are inside that country. The citizens are what make my country great (at least, in my opinion, heh).
<!--QuoteBegin-MedHead+Jan 18 2005, 02:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MedHead @ Jan 18 2005, 02:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1. Sorry, I didn't mean to single you out. There was a similar discussion on #naturalselection a month or two ago, and I was writing my post as a pre-emptive measure, or to any of the readers who had the opinion I was describing. I tried to show this by avoiding "You", and using the proper "One" or "He or she", and I avoided quoting any post. Still, I think that worrying about the symbol's "true" meaning is somewhat misguided, since it ignores the torture given to innocent people under that symbol.
2. There are those who do similar things, which is why I was making the comment.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Don't worry, I didn't think you were singling me out, but I saw a few connections between what I had said and your comments, so I felt that I should clarify. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->3. It was a world war - it offended a lot of people. Just because it doesn't offend everyone doesn't mean that those who are offended are wrong. That's why I have a problem with those who seem to seek out those who are offended in order to "enlighten" the offended. I'm not saying you're doing that, but I do know there are some out there who do. The Bible teaches that it is much better to compromise for someone who is offended by something trivial than to require the offended to change their thoughts on something that is trivial. This was in reference to meat being offered to false gods, and the eating of that meat. Some people were offended by such a practice, and some weren't. Paul said it was much wiser to not invite people over offended by such practice, and then eat the meat that was offensive, but rather to find meat that wasn't offered to idols to make the offended person feel welcome. I think that practice applies to this as well. Why would one want to offend another for such a minor, trivial thing? There is no reason, no purpose important enough that it requires it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree with you completely, here. To further clarify, my statement: "Nobody has the right not to be offended" means that offending people is not my goal, but I'm not going to dance around something or sugar-coat it just to keep someone from being offended. The swastika, for its original meaning and as a personal symbol, is quite important to me but yeah, I'm willing to compromise in some situations. (An example being in someone's house. If someone didn't want me to bring a swastika medallion in to their house, I would respect their wishes.)
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->4. Well, while this may be true, it doesn't negate the millions who died under that symbol. While I understand your position, and I'm not saying you're wrong for using the symbol, please don't begin to become elitist like others and use it for purposes of shocking only. It's only a symbol, in the end.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree with you here, too. My intentions are not to shock people. My primary intentions are personal, actually. A secondary goal would be to educate people who <i>approach me</i> and <i>ask</i> me why I'm using the symbol.
I do have respect for the people who died under the regime that used the swastika, to be clear. I just don't feel that a symbol shouldn't be used because of one meaning. (An example could be the word "pervert". It has two definitions: "a person whose behavior deviates from what is acceptable especially in sexual behavior" and "twist: practice sophistry; change the meaning of or be vague about in order to mislead or deceive". Wouldn't you think that it's pretty silly if people didn't want you to use the word "pervert" using the second meaning because of the first?)
Consider the use of a swastika much like the word 'g@y' . Many years ago, probably before any of us were born, 'g@y' meant something very different than it does now; however, if you say 'g@y' no one is going to connect it with that meaning (unless you expressly tell them, which will generally turn out to be a hassle - and end up with you using a different word like 'happy' anyway).
[I'm also to understand that this is mostly in the US, I'm not sure about England/Australia <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> ]
And now, 'g@y' means something else completely, just like a Swastika does. See how many times you use 'g@y' <i>instead</i> of happy/enjoyable/lovable; now see how many times a four-leaf clover/horseshoe/rabbitsfoot is used for luck and good fortune and not a swastika.
And to answer your question: No; I'm very hard to offend <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> .
[edit: see, the word is apparently so offensive now, that it's blocked by the swear filter; bah. That has to be the most retarded filter I've ever seen.]
<!--QuoteBegin-UltimaGecko+Jan 18 2005, 02:37 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (UltimaGecko @ Jan 18 2005, 02:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Consider the use of a swastika much like the word 'g@y' . Many years ago, probably before any of us were born, 'g@y' meant something very different than it does now; however, if you say 'g@y' no one is going to connect it with that meaning (unless you expressly tell them, which will generally turn out to be a hassle - and end up with you using a different word like 'happy' anyway).
[I'm also to understand that this is mostly in the US, I'm not sure about England/Australia <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> ]
And now, 'g@y' means something else completely, just like a Swastika does. See how many times you use 'g@y' <i>instead</i> of happy/enjoyable/lovable; now see how many times a four-leaf clover/horseshoe/rabbitsfoot is used for luck and good fortune and not a swastika. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> True, but g*y still retains its old meaning and, if someone is willing to use it to mean "happy" despite the hassle, there's no reason why they can't. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
[EDIT:] Maybe we should move this discussion to a seperate topic. I have a feeling that this thread is going to be locked soon, since some people can't stop posting stupid pictures. -_- If a mod is feeling generous enough, could you split the discussion posts in to a seperate thread, please?
I don't find the nazis offensive anymore because they no longer have to power to do anything even remotely close to what they did. They're just another extremist group now.
I can easily see how your grandmother would be offended, my gandmother spent the whole war in a labour camp, and she refused to talk about it or eat turnip (that is the only thing they were given).
I consider myself somewhat of a WWII nut, and I do know what they did, but I find claiming someone a nazi to be amusing. There is almost no chance that they could be anywhere near that bad. It's like calling someone a f** even if you know they aren't (or at least think they aren't). I don't do it myself, but if someone calls me one, I don't give a damn.
SinSpawnHarbinger of SufferingJoin Date: 2002-11-12Member: 8359Members
The swastika also means peace, but everyone sees it as a sign of hatred from Nazis who stole the symbol.
Gotta love education from the internet <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-SinSpawn+Jan 18 2005, 04:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SinSpawn @ Jan 18 2005, 04:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The swastika also means peace, but everyone sees it as a sign of hatred from Nazis who stole the symbol.
Gotta love education from the internet <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You do realize this all began in World War II, where our grandparents and/or parents fought and/or sacrificed, right? The Internet was not around at that time. The Internet has nothing to do with the opinion that the swastika has negative connotations.
<!--QuoteBegin-SinSpawn+Jan 18 2005, 04:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SinSpawn @ Jan 18 2005, 04:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The swastika also means peace, but everyone sees it as a sign of hatred from Nazis who stole the symbol.
Gotta love education from the internet <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're quite welcome to make a trip to India and see swastikas there.
[EDIT:] Maybe you don't realize this, but <b>most</b> of the world doesn't see the swastika as a Nazi symbol. <i>Only the countries involved in the war.</i> The rest <b>continue</b> to use it for its original meaning. They haven't stopped and they never will.
You're either not making sense, or you're someone I'd really rather not meet. "If someone is offended by what I do, I don't care"? Would you sing in a church because you suddenly felt like singing(preferably a rap or something else that's inappropriate)-?
NeonSpyder"Das est NTLDR?"Join Date: 2003-07-03Member: 17913Members
wow, i wasn't really expecting such a response from so many of you, maybe i hit some kind of nerve or something, but yeah the picture is only meant to be a joke, i don't consider arnold a nazi or anything, but the original picture of him standing in front of an american flag with that expression flicked something in my mind and i had to draw a comparison to a nazi propaganda poster, (plus isn't his expression just hilarious?)
to clarify things, my grandmother was only a small child by the time the war ended and she doesn't remember very much about it considering she was so young, and she didn't really smack me <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> she's a dear.
i'm getting the general feeling that you people in particular aren't offended by it, but you are also saying that people <i>could</i> be offended, which is what i thought in the first place (excepting Wheeee who's opinion i stopped caring about several months ago <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
oh, and i've attached the original picture in case any of you wanted to see it.
<!--QuoteBegin-Align+Jan 18 2005, 05:08 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Align @ Jan 18 2005, 05:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You're either not making sense, or you're someone I'd really rather not meet. "If someone is offended by what I do, I don't care"? Would you sing in a church because you suddenly felt like singing(preferably a rap or something else that's inappropriate)-? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Honestly, no. Suddenly singing in a church is quite different from having a swastika drawn on the front of a notebook, first of all.
I'm referring to public places, mostly. If I'm walking on the sidewalk, in a school, in a mall, etc... and people are offended, I won't care.
Say I'm in a church with a swastika pin on my coat, though. If the <i>pastor</i> (or whoever owns the church, really. I've only ever been in a church two or three times in my entire life, heh.) asks me to remove the pin, I'll do so to respect his space. Just like you would remove your shoes at the front door if you went to a friend's house and they asked you to.
If, however, someone else who goes to the church is offended by the pin and doesn't ask for an explanation, that's their own problem, not mine.
<!--QuoteBegin-CForrester+Jan 18 2005, 05:23 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CForrester @ Jan 18 2005, 05:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm referring to public places, mostly. If I'm walking on the sidewalk, in a school, in a mall, etc... and people are offended, I won't care. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I would like clarification; does this sentiment only cover the swastika, or is this true for everything you do in public?
I'm not offended, I live in Austria (you know... the country where Hitler was born). Most of the younger generation don't care much about "those" symbols except they clearly represent racism and related stuff. Well, they are actually forbiden here <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> Again, I think the Arnie image was funny, not because of the symbol, the pose is just so damn funneh.
NeonSpyder"Das est NTLDR?"Join Date: 2003-07-03Member: 17913Members
yeah, he pose was just so comical i needed a way to share it with you people, and just posting the original image wouldn't be any fun so i played around with him and decided that his pose felt a little like a propaganda poster, and arnold makes a good topic of funnyness <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Comments
<b>[2]</b>I don't see why not. It's just a symbol. I'm willing to explain myself every time someone asks why I have a swastika drawn on my notebook or something. If they don't understand my reasons, that's just too bad. I do not exist to cater to someone else. If they refuse to see that the swastika doesn't necessarily refer to the Nazi regime, then they don't have to pay attention to my swastikas or even me, if they wish. I'll understand.
<b>[3]</b>But that doesn't mean that the old meanings can no longer be used. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
[1]
Well, my sentiments on those people is that they're ignorant.
[2]
You go ahead and do that. Meanwhile, all the people that see it but do not comment will build up an image of you as a nazi in their mind. Which is why the symbol isn't used anymore.
(Its offensive-ness isn't for me to judge, as I'm far too young)
[3]
Uh, sure they can be used, but unless you can speak to everyone who sees it and explain to them why the hell you just drew a nazi symbol on your book, the same thing as in [2] happens.
<b>ninja edit</b>
It all comes down to this: You did not experience the holocaust, so you have no right to judge whether an image that is directly related to it(ie, the swastika) is offensive or not.
would using an avatar or sig containing a swastika be offensive to the forums?
It all comes down to this: You did not experience the holocaust, so you have no right to judge whether an image that is directly related to it(ie, the swastika) is offensive or not. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
jsut because you wern't there doesn't mean you cannot have an opinion. If thats the case then YOU can have no opnion on anything which did not involve you directly.
You go ahead and do that. Meanwhile, all the people that see it but do not comment will build up an image of you as a nazi in their mind. Which is why the symbol isn't used anymore.
(Its offensive-ness isn't for me to judge, as I'm far too young)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They can if they like. I don't care what other people think of me. I'm happy with myself and my friends.
I'm sure that people have enough of an image about me built up, considering I'm a male with unkempt hair that goes down to my waist and I walk everywhere in bare feet when it's warm enough.
It doesn't hurt me if people avoid me or make assumptions. Their opinions influence my life and everyone is, of course, entitled to their own.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->[3]
Uh, sure they can be used, but unless you can speak to everyone who sees it and explain to them why the hell you just drew a nazi symbol on your book, the same thing as in [2] happens.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If they want to know, I'm quite glad to explain it. If they don't, that's their own business.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>ninja edit</b>
It all comes down to this: You did not experience the holocaust, so you have no right to judge whether an image that is directly related to it(ie, the swastika) is offensive or not.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never said that it wasn't offensive to anyone. I knew what people thought when I started using the swastika (both for its original meaning and as a personal symbol).
What I <b>DID</b> say, however, was that they can be offended. But I don't care if they are. They aren't required to be offended and they certainly don't have to pay any attention to me if things I do, say or believe in offend them.
People get offended. <i>I</i> even get offended by some things. BUT. If something or someone offends me, I just don't pay attention to it. Granted, it wouldn't be ideal to do this for some things. (Racism being an example. If those who were offended by it didn't step up and do something, things would be even worse than they are now.) And I do agree with doing something about something that offends you, but ONLY if it is affecting your live.
Someone drawing a swastika on their hand, their notebook, their wallet, etc... has no effect on your life. Should Christians not be allowed to draw their symbols because it offends someone? (I don't seem to recall anyone pressing to ban Christian symbols when their child was molested by a priest.)
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->just curious:
would using an avatar or sig containing a swastika be offensive to the forums?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've actually been wondering about this, myself.
If the United States of America were to elect a Hitler clone into office, and he began doing exactly the same thing as Hitler did in World War II, then yes, the American flag would be hated. As it stands, America doesn't do that. If it did, I would not be surprised in the least if the American flag were to become a hated symbol. And if that were the case, I wouldn't wave the flag around anymore; I would be ashamed of what it represented.
I also know that at this moment there are many who hate the American flag, although for reasons much more tame than those against the swastika. I resolve this situation by not waving the American flag around them (not that I do that normally). Why instigate a problem? What does it resolve to "educate" people on a silly symbol, when the people have a valid reason to have problems with the symbol? If I don't get my "daily waving" in, do I die? No! This education idea smacks of arrogance. Don't try to fool me by saying one flashes the swastika at offended people for the reason of education. It's obvious the swastika bearer want to shock the viewer, and then look down his or her nose at the offended party because they're not "enlightened". Worrying about a silly symbol is petty. Let it go!
As for the Wolfenstein/DOOM comment, why is it wrong for a person or country to be offended by a symbol and request its removal? Is change only allowed one way? Why is it acceptable to use a symbol that offends others, but unacceptable to <b>not</b> use the symbol around others that are offended? Compromise works both ways!
<b>EDIT:</b> I forgot to include this <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika' target='_blank'>Wikipedia article</a> somewhere in my rant.
1. It's a f***ing geometric shape, get over it. (Remember when DOOM got itself banned in Germany for having a floor pattern of one?)
2. The swastika actually has a long & noble history prior to it's use by nazi Germany. It's a common heraldric emblem for many houses who were forced to dispense with it in the wave of anti-nazi sentiment that has occupied the 20th century.
- Shockwave <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^^
[edit]
prince in nazi costume is "'teh" funny, and I've seen that Arnie picture before. I'm still offended that he is our governor >_<
[/edit]
Now, the fact that it doesn't offend me doesn't mean it doesn't offend others. I can look beyond the symbol and try to think whether it's serious or for a laugh, how stupid the creator is, etc. It's not the symbol as much as the intention.
The difference between waving a flag and having a swastika on your notebook is pretty big, though. I don't actively seek out people to draw swastikas by. I have a swastika on my notebook. I drew it for my own reasons, though I am willing to explain it if people see it and ask. I do not, however, stand around on street corners, holding my notebook up and screaming "LOOK AT THIS, I DREW A SWASTIKA".
My participation in this thread started because I was giving advice to someone and explaining how the swastika doesn't offend /everyone/ and still has its old meanings, despite taking on a new one. And I was up for an interesting and mature discussion, so why not? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<img src='http://jezpuh.shatteredminds.net/ohnos.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
Arnold is not entirely unconnected to the Nazis, as you can find out by reading this <a href='http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/entertainers/actors/arnold-schwarzenegger/' target='_blank'>short Schwarzenegger biography</a>.
Warning: contains pornographic images (of Arnold Schwarzenegger).
My participation in this thread started because I was giving advice to someone and explaining how the swastika doesn't offend /everyone/ (3) and still has its old meanings, (4) despite taking on a new one. And I was up for an interesting and mature discussion, so why not? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. Sorry, I didn't mean to single you out. There was a similar discussion on #naturalselection a month or two ago, and I was writing my post as a pre-emptive measure, or to any of the readers who had the opinion I was describing. I tried to show this by avoiding "You", and using the proper "One" or "He or she", and I avoided quoting any post. Still, I think that worrying about the symbol's "true" meaning is somewhat misguided, since it ignores the torture given to innocent people under that symbol.
2. There are those who do similar things, which is why I was making the comment.
3. It was a world war - it offended a lot of people. Just because it doesn't offend everyone doesn't mean that those who are offended are wrong. That's why I have a problem with those who seem to seek out those who are offended in order to "enlighten" the offended. I'm not saying you're doing that, but I do know there are some out there who do. The Bible teaches that it is much better to compromise for someone who is offended by something trivial than to require the offended to change their thoughts on something that is trivial. This was in reference to meat being offered to false gods, and the eating of that meat. Some people were offended by such a practice, and some weren't. Paul said it was much wiser to not invite people over offended by such practice, and then eat the meat that was offensive, but rather to find meat that wasn't offered to idols to make the offended person feel welcome. I think that practice applies to this as well. Why would one want to offend another for such a minor, trivial thing? There is no reason, no purpose important enough that it requires it.
4. Well, while this may be true, it doesn't negate the millions who died under that symbol. While I understand your position, and I'm not saying you're wrong for using the symbol, please don't begin to become elitist like others and use it for purposes of shocking only. It's only a symbol, in the end.
As I said, I can understand your position. If terrorists were to don the American flag and use it during a world war in which they fought, I'd be uncertain what I would do with the American flag. Since the American flag is the flag of my country, I'm proud of it, as I can see the history behind it. Seeing it used for an evil purpose would be dissappointing. Suddenly the history of my flag would be replaced with an evil group of people, who wanted to kill others. Suddenly the flag Americans wore on their clothing meant "death". If this were to ever happen, I think it would be in the United States best interest to replace the flag, but I think I would be in the minority with that feeling. However, I would be certain not to try to go out and offend others with the flag with the sole purpose of "enlightning" (in the arrogant sense). It is, after all, just a symbol. America isn't the country it is solely on the flag, but because of the people who are inside that country. The citizens are what make my country great (at least, in my opinion, heh).
2. There are those who do similar things, which is why I was making the comment.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't worry, I didn't think you were singling me out, but I saw a few connections between what I had said and your comments, so I felt that I should clarify. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->3. It was a world war - it offended a lot of people. Just because it doesn't offend everyone doesn't mean that those who are offended are wrong. That's why I have a problem with those who seem to seek out those who are offended in order to "enlighten" the offended. I'm not saying you're doing that, but I do know there are some out there who do. The Bible teaches that it is much better to compromise for someone who is offended by something trivial than to require the offended to change their thoughts on something that is trivial. This was in reference to meat being offered to false gods, and the eating of that meat. Some people were offended by such a practice, and some weren't. Paul said it was much wiser to not invite people over offended by such practice, and then eat the meat that was offensive, but rather to find meat that wasn't offered to idols to make the offended person feel welcome. I think that practice applies to this as well. Why would one want to offend another for such a minor, trivial thing? There is no reason, no purpose important enough that it requires it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with you completely, here. To further clarify, my statement: "Nobody has the right not to be offended" means that offending people is not my goal, but I'm not going to dance around something or sugar-coat it just to keep someone from being offended. The swastika, for its original meaning and as a personal symbol, is quite important to me but yeah, I'm willing to compromise in some situations. (An example being in someone's house. If someone didn't want me to bring a swastika medallion in to their house, I would respect their wishes.)
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->4. Well, while this may be true, it doesn't negate the millions who died under that symbol. While I understand your position, and I'm not saying you're wrong for using the symbol, please don't begin to become elitist like others and use it for purposes of shocking only. It's only a symbol, in the end.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with you here, too. My intentions are not to shock people. My primary intentions are personal, actually. A secondary goal would be to educate people who <i>approach me</i> and <i>ask</i> me why I'm using the symbol.
I do have respect for the people who died under the regime that used the swastika, to be clear. I just don't feel that a symbol shouldn't be used because of one meaning. (An example could be the word "pervert". It has two definitions: "a person whose behavior deviates from what is acceptable especially in sexual behavior" and "twist: practice sophistry; change the meaning of or be vague about in order to mislead or deceive". Wouldn't you think that it's pretty silly if people didn't want you to use the word "pervert" using the second meaning because of the first?)
[I'm also to understand that this is mostly in the US, I'm not sure about England/Australia <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> ]
And now, 'g@y' means something else completely, just like a Swastika does. See how many times you use 'g@y' <i>instead</i> of happy/enjoyable/lovable; now see how many times a four-leaf clover/horseshoe/rabbitsfoot is used for luck and good fortune and not a swastika.
And to answer your question: No; I'm very hard to offend <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> .
[edit: see, the word is apparently so offensive now, that it's blocked by the swear filter; bah. That has to be the most retarded filter I've ever seen.]
[I'm also to understand that this is mostly in the US, I'm not sure about England/Australia <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> ]
And now, 'g@y' means something else completely, just like a Swastika does. See how many times you use 'g@y' <i>instead</i> of happy/enjoyable/lovable; now see how many times a four-leaf clover/horseshoe/rabbitsfoot is used for luck and good fortune and not a swastika. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True, but g*y still retains its old meaning and, if someone is willing to use it to mean "happy" despite the hassle, there's no reason why they can't. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
[EDIT:] Maybe we should move this discussion to a seperate topic. I have a feeling that this thread is going to be locked soon, since some people can't stop posting stupid pictures. -_- If a mod is feeling generous enough, could you split the discussion posts in to a seperate thread, please?
in big, fat, white text: "PULL MY FINGER!"
I can easily see how your grandmother would be offended, my gandmother spent the whole war in a labour camp, and she refused to talk about it or eat turnip (that is the only thing they were given).
I consider myself somewhat of a WWII nut, and I do know what they did, but I find claiming someone a nazi to be amusing. There is almost no chance that they could be anywhere near that bad. It's like calling someone a f** even if you know they aren't (or at least think they aren't). I don't do it myself, but if someone calls me one, I don't give a damn.
Gotta love education from the internet <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Gotta love education from the internet <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You do realize this all began in World War II, where our grandparents and/or parents fought and/or sacrificed, right? The Internet was not around at that time. The Internet has nothing to do with the opinion that the swastika has negative connotations.
Gotta love education from the internet <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're quite welcome to make a trip to India and see swastikas there.
[EDIT:] Maybe you don't realize this, but <b>most</b> of the world doesn't see the swastika as a Nazi symbol. <i>Only the countries involved in the war.</i> The rest <b>continue</b> to use it for its original meaning. They haven't stopped and they never will.
to clarify things, my grandmother was only a small child by the time the war ended and she doesn't remember very much about it considering she was so young, and she didn't really smack me <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> she's a dear.
i'm getting the general feeling that you people in particular aren't offended by it, but you are also saying that people <i>could</i> be offended, which is what i thought in the first place (excepting Wheeee who's opinion i stopped caring about several months ago <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
oh, and i've attached the original picture in case any of you wanted to see it.
Honestly, no. Suddenly singing in a church is quite different from having a swastika drawn on the front of a notebook, first of all.
I'm referring to public places, mostly. If I'm walking on the sidewalk, in a school, in a mall, etc... and people are offended, I won't care.
Say I'm in a church with a swastika pin on my coat, though. If the <i>pastor</i> (or whoever owns the church, really. I've only ever been in a church two or three times in my entire life, heh.) asks me to remove the pin, I'll do so to respect his space. Just like you would remove your shoes at the front door if you went to a friend's house and they asked you to.
If, however, someone else who goes to the church is offended by the pin and doesn't ask for an explanation, that's their own problem, not mine.
I would like clarification; does this sentiment only cover the swastika, or is this true for everything you do in public?
Most of the younger generation don't care much about "those" symbols except they clearly represent racism and related stuff. Well, they are actually forbiden here <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Again, I think the Arnie image was funny, not because of the symbol, the pose is just so damn funneh.