Look at it this way : Bast is a space ship, Like all ships, water and air, and in her case space, they need refits, Maybe engine refit, or some new seats, in Basts case it was the removal of a broken piece of machinary (revolving door) and a near fatal elevator.
I already linked you all to the old bast (proper not parody) in hopes that you would lay off ( <a href='http://www.shadow-corps.net/section/file/nsmaps/oldmaps/' target='_blank'>Incase you missed it!</a> ) EDIT* Anyone want to mirror these?!
Lay off bast.
Oh god, mrben, you realise your next in line for this don't you? Even though what you've done was needed changes like the changes Mendasp made... I feel for you guys :/
<!--QuoteBegin-Wither+Jan 31 2005, 11:58 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wither @ Jan 31 2005, 11:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Mendasp ruined nature selectors. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I had to think about what that meant for a while. Anyway, i'm going to try to get to the bridge without a jetpack. Sounds like a challenge!
aonomusDedicated NS Mastermind (no need for school)Join Date: 2003-11-26Member: 23605Members, Constellation
Wow you guys suck, you insult Mendasp for bringing back a great map, then you insult him for making it balanced and playable for 3.0, *then* you insult him for 'butchering' it again when releasing the classic version... GG
<!--QuoteBegin-aonomus+Jan 31 2005, 01:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (aonomus @ Jan 31 2005, 01:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Wow you guys suck, you insult Mendasp for bringing back a great map, then you insult him for making it balanced and playable for 3.0, *then* you insult him for 'butchering' it again when releasing the classic version... GG <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Its true, yet bizarre. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I don't really care tbh. The clanning community appears to like the changes so i'm happy. Half the pubbers like mineshaft so i don't hold their opinion in such high regard.
<!--QuoteBegin-Olmy+Jan 31 2005, 06:06 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Olmy @ Jan 31 2005, 06:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I had to think about what that meant for a while. Anyway, i'm going to try to get to the bridge without a jetpack. Sounds like a challenge! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Quiet you, YOU RUINED NS_EON!!! <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
ns_bast_classic = ns_bast included in NS 3.0 b4, that's the one you want, low entity count, revolving door, etc... although the lighting in feedwater might burn your eyes...
In fact, it's the one I released, only it wasn't upside down <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Anyways, as for "the pace" of the map, the spider diagram shows that the map still plays like before (big circle with main aft in the middle), at least for the b6 version of the map...
<!--QuoteBegin-Olmy+Jan 31 2005, 07:06 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Olmy @ Jan 31 2005, 07:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Anyway, i'm going to try to get to the bridge without a jetpack. Sounds like a challenge! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> nah, its easy.. u just gotta BELIEVE IN YOURSELF!! dont be afraid to jump down, just know where to jump.
umm yeah
whats boring is that atmos and feedwater are totally impossible to get to without jp, as is engine =/
but see, if i wanted 1.x or even 2.0 bast, and this wasn't it, i'd "****" too. nothing wrong with that. the point is bast is not as cool as it used to be, which is not a personal insult to mendasp. i understand the need for balance
I'd say to people new to the mod, bast will be damn cool, the old one is cool to us BECAUSE it was the first bast we ever saw, I played 1.0s bast, on a full 3.0 server, and it was... odd, although the pings kept low, it didn't feel like it does now, it wasn't as fun as it was with the old game system, new game system - new maps. Let the past die gracefully, and accept the changes.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Anyways, as for "the pace" of the map, the spider diagram shows that the map still plays like before (big circle with main aft in the middle), at least for the b6 version of the map... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well man I can only tell you how it feels for me as I play through it, I know it plays different, the strategy has changed. Used to be engine only needed a bit of vent checking for any sly PG/TFAC insanity. Some OC would fix that, as well as regular vent running. Now, I see marines going full pelt into Engine hive and not even getting slowed. Ref hive used to be notorious for this, having more holes than a swiss cheese, but now effectively both hives are wide open for invasion - moreso in my opinion that most other hives. In old bast there seemed to be a sort of counterbalance between the easy to get into ref hive, and the relatively harder to get into Engine hive. New Bast plays way way faster than the old.
I understand the goal of NS is short fast games, but a lot of people take pleasure in epic tug of war games. Not big stalemates, but brawling games of back and forth struggle. Old Bast had that sort of conflict, but new Bast seems to have lost that part of its character. It just doesnt seem that fun to play.
I'm wary of Bob slicing through this post, and no I've not made any maps, but I've coded zones for MUDs and used to do a lot of table preparation for gaming tournmaents and the like, so I'm familiar with the base aspects of theming an area and how to control the circulation of the map.
In regards to other posters, someone should slap the guy who called you a very naughty name for "crushing his hopes". You're doing your best, you ARE improving the map in terms of "balanced gameplay", and you can't be faulted for it. At the same time, people who are playing characterful, more fun games are seeing Bast bled of its character.
As for Ben....... pandering to one section of the community, ANY ONE SECTION, only limits how good your final product is. Surely the goal is to make the people who aren't interested more interested. Selling to a target audience only works so long as the target audience remains. NS would be a duller game if it was engineered around a minority who can bunnyhop effortlessly without scripts, or shoot a full pistol clip in a second, or wallbounce as marine, or 180 degree spin turn and shoot a pancaking lerk out of midair with a shotgun. Balance comes from taking in the view of the entire spectrum.
You can see there are two EXTREMES of map - the map that worships balance to the exclusion of character or pace, and the map which is giant fan service but ultimately poor to play.
Origin is a characterful map, it tells a story, and its pretty biased. Might not be the world's most balanced map, but its fun. Bast worked well with slower play, and involved different approaches to each hive. It was fun, but not balanced.
What worries me about balance is that ultimately a perfectly balanced game will amount to only luck being able to determine a winner. I prefer biased maps, there's obvious goals and areas which must be denied to the enemy in order that they don't dig in for an overwhelming advantage.
Planning out a tournament table, you wouldn't have a symmetrical identical dull board... you'd add a bit of spice, some important bits of terrain to hold, perhaps balanced towards one style of play. Another segment would be balanced to the other. It gives the map character. Doesn't make it fair, but it makes it stick in your mind, and you've to use a bit of wit to get things done.
Bottom line, this isn't a slur against any mappers "style", because everyone is churning out quality product which are good to play, with some moreso than others. I just worry about the future of NS if it gets to the stage where content is dictated by balance and nothing else. It leads to Team Fortress and symmetrical, boring maps.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What worries me about balance is that ultimately a perfectly balanced game will amount to only luck being able to determine a winner.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
nope, when a game is totally balanced it all comes down to skill =o
biased maps where a certain spot is more important than some other are not a problem. its when maps have spots that are unfair and vital to one team at the same time that it becomes frustrating.
p.s. Cool map but you got my hopes up. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Necro+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necro)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Balance is nice but boring. If NS was balanced, both teams would be marines with the same tech tree. They would be on 2 base mirrored maps where one half is identical to the other, and there would be no commander, just buy menus. That would be "balanced" but it would kill the concept of NS. Its all about calculated imbalance, character, play speed, atmosphere, the little nuances. Bast doesn't play the same. It might play better, it might be more fair, but in the process it doesn't play like Bast.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->So TFC more-or-less then?
I wonder how much of Bast was unfair due to the teams and whether an older version would play a bit more nicely now.
Let's take a think about how much NS has changed since Bast's initial release. Now let's think about how much Bast has changed.
I'd like to point out that with two variables (the map and the Mod) it's fairly difficult to make valid observations on what was better. Maybe Bast was better off in an earlier state but because of the imbalance of NS it was blamed for being unplayable. Going back to one of Necro's posts I have to agree that a lot of character has been lost. Yes some changes are neccessary (Feedwater lighting etc.) but the structure changes may have taken away some of Bast's once-legendary atmosphere.
There is no perfect ns_map. Each has its own areas that once held can give one team a serious advantage. ns_veil, one of the most 'balanced' ns maps (which I personally don't like due to it's stale atmosphere) has a double res node which can offer serious advantage.
So where does Bast go from here? I'd like for it to revert to one of its previous incarnations with the most important changes still intact. Then I'd like to see it privately playtested with the current version of NS (the closest the Dev team have come to balancing the teams) and see just exactly how unbalanced Bast was.
I'm quietly confident about how it might perform without the more drastic changes (MS-Engine-Refinery route). The only problem with this is that it means even more work for Mendasp (lo siento tio).
All the feedback I have recieved from the competitive community has been excellent and all the changes have been welcomed. That is all I care about. I have no doubt that balance, as it always does, will filter down from high level play to lowest level of play. I guess it's the advantage of having an official level designer who is also a clanner.
<!--QuoteBegin-MrBen+Feb 1 2005, 02:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrBen @ Feb 1 2005, 02:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'>SUE ME</span> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The only changes you made are the ones the people hate the most, that says something!
I like both basts much, best atmosphere and nice gameplay. Its overall Ballancing is better than eclipses ballancing. I prefer the old bast a little bit, but not much. Dont take NS too serious and try to make it beter before you criticize.
<!--QuoteBegin-SjN+Feb 1 2005, 11:22 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SjN @ Feb 1 2005, 11:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I preffer 1.04 bast over all the new maps that came with 2.0/3.0 <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> gj letting us know
lemme guess, u also like 1.x over any other version <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Necrosis... you do realize that there are a few official maps, which have excellent atmosphere, look great, but play like crap, and thus are rarely played on many servers (I'm talking b5 here). Would you really want this to happen to bast? As much as we love atmosphere, some of it must be sacraficed to gameplay, and I'm all for that. After all, what's the point of a beautiful map if it's never played?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I want the next person who offers worthless commentary that has absolutely no critical value to submit with it a list of official maps that they maintain which are included in popular half-life mods. If this list includes no maps, then either post something useful or don't post. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've made maps for a mod, does that mean im allowed to flame? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->except gigabyte, that insisted in re-remaking bast and that I did a crap job on it, HI MAN I HOPE YOU'RE HAVING FUN!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no, i know how hard it is to rebuild a map from 1 unit thick brushes. its not fun at all. it takes weeks and months on maps as complex as bast. i for one appreciate your work on remaking bast, i just dont like the suttle changes here and there because i had way too many great games on the old bast that would last hours on end, and in the new bast if the aliens get the engine hive, its all over for one side or another.
as far as i got on ns_bast, (then i stopped because i had more important things to work on) was from atmospheric processing to the engine hive.
so it will probably have to sit in a delapidated state like that for a long time.
If everything in life was dictated by narrowminded children who drift from game to game practising being button monkeys, life would be a lot lot worse.
Thankfully maturity kicks in with age.
Balance, pure balance, devolves to luck. Pure balance allows a seasoned player to be beaten by a newcomer with no muscular control. The balance we prefer in game is not "true balance".
Second, judging "balance" by the standard of any exclusive group is a recipe for disaster. One group might prefer a certain style, another group would prefer something else. A mediocre person will pander only to one group, because you can fool some of the people some of the team. A truly great person will try to involve all groups, in order to fool all of the people some of the time.
Companies have a vested interest in keeping everyone happy so that they can shift more units. Individuals don't have that problem, and thus can kid themselves that they're doing great work because 5 people love everything they do, or agree with them on everything.
Its the creative equivalent of sticking fingers in one's ears. These 5 people worship me, ergo I am never wrong. As long as I keep pandering to them, I will be pretend to myself that I am good at what I do.
I hacked up some models from other people. Some like them, some don't. I like to listen to the ones who don't in order that I may improve my work. Listening to the people who love my stuff is nice for my ego but doesn't help me add anything new to my creations.
Likewise for other people. Other viewpoints add to the challenge and add to the value. But hey, if people like hanging around in little cliques out of fear, then all well and good. The proof is in the pudding, and its funny that a lot of people complain about losing the pace of Bast, when it is apparently considered a bad map.
I wonder, if we gathered enough clanners in here who agreed Bast had changed, would you change your mind, or just insult them. Or if we all join clans, will that somehow validate our opinions. Such immaturity.
Does anyone for one second believe that a map built to perfect "ideal" balanced gaming specifications is going to be more enjoyable to play than a slightly bugged map with an individual character? If people are going to insist on cookie cutter symmetrical maps, why not go the whole banana and port over 2fort and other such "memorable" maps.
Maybe someday I'll make a "skillzzzzzorrzzz" map which has virtually no floor, so that only skilled lerks/fades/jps can get around it. PURE SKILLZ OGM. Or just one long corridor, so that only "skilled aliens" can beat the marines. Perhaps a mirror version thats nothing but vents so that only "skilled marines" can win.
Honestly Ben, I mean you voice some good opinions but then you come out with something thats really wacko. I could paint models for someone blind or colour blind, if they kiss my backside it doesnt mean they're the final authority.
I for one would rather have maps with personality and a bit of character, as opposed to cookie cutter DM or TFC tripe where there's no choke points, no "easy" or "hard" rooms. <b><i>Please take care to note this is not a slur on your maps</i></b>, both Mendasp and Ben. They're good maps, and as I keep saying about new Bast, its a BETTER map but its not the Bast I used to play. I am instead making a slur on cookie cutter creation which I believe is the inevitable result of pandering to any one demographic and looking for "pure balance" to its inevitable conclusion.
Again, look to TFC for a grim vision of "balance".
Wanna hear a funny joke? Necrosis got a forum title because one of the dev team members thought he was a super voice of reason, clarity and intelligence. Sigh, what a sad world.
Comments
I already linked you all to the old bast (proper not parody) in hopes that you would lay off ( <a href='http://www.shadow-corps.net/section/file/nsmaps/oldmaps/' target='_blank'>Incase you missed it!</a> ) EDIT* Anyone want to mirror these?!
Lay off bast.
Oh god, mrben, you realise your next in line for this don't you? Even though what you've done was needed changes like the changes Mendasp made... I feel for you guys :/
I had to think about what that meant for a while.
Anyway, i'm going to try to get to the bridge without a jetpack. Sounds like a challenge!
Its true, yet bizarre. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Anyway, i'm going to try to get to the bridge without a jetpack. Sounds like a challenge! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Quiet you, YOU RUINED NS_EON!!! <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
In fact, it's the one I released, only it wasn't upside down <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Anyways, as for "the pace" of the map, the spider diagram shows that the map still plays like before (big circle with main aft in the middle), at least for the b6 version of the map...
Anyway, i'm going to try to get to the bridge without a jetpack. Sounds like a challenge! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
nah, its easy.. u just gotta BELIEVE IN YOURSELF!! dont be afraid to jump down, just know where to jump.
umm yeah
whats boring is that atmos and feedwater are totally impossible to get to without jp, as is engine =/
tbh i hadn't looked at the map mendasp had posted
but see, if i wanted 1.x or even 2.0 bast, and this wasn't it, i'd "****" too. nothing wrong with that. the point is bast is not as cool as it used to be, which is not a personal insult to mendasp. i understand the need for balance
who doesn't want it to be cool *and* balanced
old bast rocked. there were little touches here and there that cannot be included with the present day entity limit
trust me, i have a great memory. only vague blurs can be nostalgia
Anyways, as for "the pace" of the map, the spider diagram shows that the map still plays like before (big circle with main aft in the middle), at least for the b6 version of the map...
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well man I can only tell you how it feels for me as I play through it, I know it plays different, the strategy has changed. Used to be engine only needed a bit of vent checking for any sly PG/TFAC insanity. Some OC would fix that, as well as regular vent running. Now, I see marines going full pelt into Engine hive and not even getting slowed. Ref hive used to be notorious for this, having more holes than a swiss cheese, but now effectively both hives are wide open for invasion - moreso in my opinion that most other hives. In old bast there seemed to be a sort of counterbalance between the easy to get into ref hive, and the relatively harder to get into Engine hive. New Bast plays way way faster than the old.
I understand the goal of NS is short fast games, but a lot of people take pleasure in epic tug of war games. Not big stalemates, but brawling games of back and forth struggle. Old Bast had that sort of conflict, but new Bast seems to have lost that part of its character. It just doesnt seem that fun to play.
I'm wary of Bob slicing through this post, and no I've not made any maps, but I've coded zones for MUDs and used to do a lot of table preparation for gaming tournmaents and the like, so I'm familiar with the base aspects of theming an area and how to control the circulation of the map.
In regards to other posters, someone should slap the guy who called you a very naughty name for "crushing his hopes". You're doing your best, you ARE improving the map in terms of "balanced gameplay", and you can't be faulted for it. At the same time, people who are playing characterful, more fun games are seeing Bast bled of its character.
As for Ben....... pandering to one section of the community, ANY ONE SECTION, only limits how good your final product is. Surely the goal is to make the people who aren't interested more interested. Selling to a target audience only works so long as the target audience remains. NS would be a duller game if it was engineered around a minority who can bunnyhop effortlessly without scripts, or shoot a full pistol clip in a second, or wallbounce as marine, or 180 degree spin turn and shoot a pancaking lerk out of midair with a shotgun. Balance comes from taking in the view of the entire spectrum.
You can see there are two EXTREMES of map - the map that worships balance to the exclusion of character or pace, and the map which is giant fan service but ultimately poor to play.
Origin is a characterful map, it tells a story, and its pretty biased. Might not be the world's most balanced map, but its fun. Bast worked well with slower play, and involved different approaches to each hive. It was fun, but not balanced.
What worries me about balance is that ultimately a perfectly balanced game will amount to only luck being able to determine a winner. I prefer biased maps, there's obvious goals and areas which must be denied to the enemy in order that they don't dig in for an overwhelming advantage.
Planning out a tournament table, you wouldn't have a symmetrical identical dull board... you'd add a bit of spice, some important bits of terrain to hold, perhaps balanced towards one style of play. Another segment would be balanced to the other. It gives the map character. Doesn't make it fair, but it makes it stick in your mind, and you've to use a bit of wit to get things done.
Bottom line, this isn't a slur against any mappers "style", because everyone is churning out quality product which are good to play, with some moreso than others. I just worry about the future of NS if it gets to the stage where content is dictated by balance and nothing else. It leads to Team Fortress and symmetrical, boring maps.
nope, when a game is totally balanced it all comes down to skill =o
biased maps where a certain spot is more important than some other are not a problem. its when maps have spots that are unfair and vital to one team at the same time that it becomes frustrating.
p.s. Cool map but you got my hopes up. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I wonder how much of Bast was unfair due to the teams and whether an older version would play a bit more nicely now.
Let's take a think about how much NS has changed since Bast's initial release.
Now let's think about how much Bast has changed.
I'd like to point out that with two variables (the map and the Mod) it's fairly difficult to make valid observations on what was better. Maybe Bast was better off in an earlier state but because of the imbalance of NS it was blamed for being unplayable. Going back to one of Necro's posts I have to agree that a lot of character has been lost. Yes some changes are neccessary (Feedwater lighting etc.) but the structure changes may have taken away some of Bast's once-legendary atmosphere.
There is no perfect ns_map. Each has its own areas that once held can give one team a serious advantage. ns_veil, one of the most 'balanced' ns maps (which I personally don't like due to it's stale atmosphere) has a double res node which can offer serious advantage.
So where does Bast go from here? I'd like for it to revert to one of its previous incarnations with the most important changes still intact. Then I'd like to see it privately playtested with the current version of NS (the closest the Dev team have come to balancing the teams) and see just exactly how unbalanced Bast was.
I'm quietly confident about how it might perform without the more drastic changes (MS-Engine-Refinery route). The only problem with this is that it means even more work for Mendasp (lo siento tio).
I'm the first one who wanted to avoid all this trouble... in fact... BEN DELETED THE DOOR AND MADE CRATE-LAND! BLAME HIM!
/me runs
The only changes you made are the ones the people hate the most, that says something!
mwahahaha
Its overall Ballancing is better than eclipses ballancing.
I prefer the old bast a little bit, but not much.
Dont take NS too serious and try to make it beter before you criticize.
<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
gj letting us know
lemme guess, u also like 1.x over any other version <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
btw, I blame mr. ben.
I've made maps for a mod, does that mean im allowed to flame? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
no, i know how hard it is to rebuild a map from 1 unit thick brushes. its not fun at all. it takes weeks and months on maps as complex as bast. i for one appreciate your work on remaking bast, i just dont like the suttle changes here and there because i had way too many great games on the old bast that would last hours on end, and in the new bast if the aliens get the engine hive, its all over for one side or another.
as far as i got on ns_bast, (then i stopped because i had more important things to work on) was from atmospheric processing to the engine hive.
so it will probably have to sit in a delapidated state like that for a long time.
Thankfully maturity kicks in with age.
Balance, pure balance, devolves to luck. Pure balance allows a seasoned player to be beaten by a newcomer with no muscular control. The balance we prefer in game is not "true balance".
Second, judging "balance" by the standard of any exclusive group is a recipe for disaster. One group might prefer a certain style, another group would prefer something else. A mediocre person will pander only to one group, because you can fool some of the people some of the team. A truly great person will try to involve all groups, in order to fool all of the people some of the time.
Companies have a vested interest in keeping everyone happy so that they can shift more units. Individuals don't have that problem, and thus can kid themselves that they're doing great work because 5 people love everything they do, or agree with them on everything.
Its the creative equivalent of sticking fingers in one's ears. These 5 people worship me, ergo I am never wrong. As long as I keep pandering to them, I will be pretend to myself that I am good at what I do.
I hacked up some models from other people. Some like them, some don't. I like to listen to the ones who don't in order that I may improve my work. Listening to the people who love my stuff is nice for my ego but doesn't help me add anything new to my creations.
Likewise for other people. Other viewpoints add to the challenge and add to the value. But hey, if people like hanging around in little cliques out of fear, then all well and good. The proof is in the pudding, and its funny that a lot of people complain about losing the pace of Bast, when it is apparently considered a bad map.
I wonder, if we gathered enough clanners in here who agreed Bast had changed, would you change your mind, or just insult them. Or if we all join clans, will that somehow validate our opinions. Such immaturity.
Does anyone for one second believe that a map built to perfect "ideal" balanced gaming specifications is going to be more enjoyable to play than a slightly bugged map with an individual character? If people are going to insist on cookie cutter symmetrical maps, why not go the whole banana and port over 2fort and other such "memorable" maps.
Maybe someday I'll make a "skillzzzzzorrzzz" map which has virtually no floor, so that only skilled lerks/fades/jps can get around it. PURE SKILLZ OGM. Or just one long corridor, so that only "skilled aliens" can beat the marines. Perhaps a mirror version thats nothing but vents so that only "skilled marines" can win.
Honestly Ben, I mean you voice some good opinions but then you come out with something thats really wacko. I could paint models for someone blind or colour blind, if they kiss my backside it doesnt mean they're the final authority.
I for one would rather have maps with personality and a bit of character, as opposed to cookie cutter DM or TFC tripe where there's no choke points, no "easy" or "hard" rooms. <b><i>Please take care to note this is not a slur on your maps</i></b>, both Mendasp and Ben. They're good maps, and as I keep saying about new Bast, its a BETTER map but its not the Bast I used to play. I am instead making a slur on cookie cutter creation which I believe is the inevitable result of pandering to any one demographic and looking for "pure balance" to its inevitable conclusion.
Again, look to TFC for a grim vision of "balance".