<!--QuoteBegin-Snidely+Feb 23 2005, 05:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely @ Feb 23 2005, 05:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm pretty sure Theclam's glad you're not his kid, either.
If the number one concern of a kid is that his dad isn't a patriot, then that kid needs more damn homework. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> most kids really look up to their dad's when there little. they think there awesome and cool. and while they allways find out that their dad isn't the world's most awesome person.. sometimes its a little bit more of a let down then others....
and homework is the #1 most stupid thing ever.... I got to school 7 hours a day... thats almost 1/3 of my life... how the heck can't I learn enough in that time span? back in the day kids didn't have homework cuz they all had to go home and help their parents on the farm and what not... but now a days... kids are diffently not busy with anything so lets give them tonz of busywork/homework so they stay off the streets and don't do drugs or something..... I just wish homework wasn't around I'm doing a lot of productive things in my life and homeowrk just is a pointless loop a lot of times that I have to jump threw...
There's a lot (good) to be said about patriotism. Some have it, some don't. I can only speculate that those who don't, weren't raised in an enviroment surrounded by it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->most kids really look up to their dad's when there little. they think there awesome and cool. and while they allways find out that their dad isn't the world's most awesome person.. sometimes its a little bit more of a let down then others....<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I never disputed that. Maybe America is just vastly different to the UK, but none of the kids I ever knew gave a damn about having a patriot for a dad. We were more interested in whether he was a cool guy.
Edit: added quote, otherwise it looks like I was replying to Depot and not avengerX.
<!--QuoteBegin-Snidely+Feb 23 2005, 05:20 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely @ Feb 23 2005, 05:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->most kids really look up to their dad's when there little. they think there awesome and cool. and while they allways find out that their dad isn't the world's most awesome person.. sometimes its a little bit more of a let down then others....<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never disputed that. Maybe America is just vastly different to the UK, but none of the kids I ever knew gave a damn about having a patriot for a dad.
Edit: added quote, otherwise it looks like I was replying to Depot and not avengerX. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> thats cuz the UK didn't win too many wars....I mean UK us to have so much land... and they lost it all... south africa, india, america, austrailia, all those countries on the island that broke away.... I mean I wouldn't be proud of my dad if he fought thoose wars either
<!--QuoteBegin-AvengerX+Feb 23 2005, 05:22 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AvengerX @ Feb 23 2005, 05:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> thats cuz the UK didn't win too many wars....I mean UK us to have so much land... and they lost it all... south africa, india, america, austrailia, all those countries on the island that broke away.... I mean I wouldn't be proud of my dad if he fought thoose wars either <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ahahahahahahahahaha
Do you know how big England is? I'm guessing you don't. To have conquered that much land at all is impressive for such a small island. You think it was gained by losing wars?
<!--QuoteBegin-Snidely+Feb 23 2005, 06:20 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely @ Feb 23 2005, 06:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I never disputed that. Maybe America is just vastly different to the UK, but none of the kids I ever knew gave a damn about having a patriot for a dad. We were more interested in whether he was a cool guy. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This may be a cultural difference, or this may be a generational issue, but when I went to school we bragged about our dads in the army, the souvenoirs they brought home, the photos we saw, how cool it was they were in Europe/Africa/wherever.
<!--QuoteBegin-Snidely+Feb 23 2005, 05:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely @ Feb 23 2005, 05:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-AvengerX+Feb 23 2005, 05:22 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AvengerX @ Feb 23 2005, 05:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> thats cuz the UK didn't win too many wars....I mean UK us to have so much land... and they lost it all... south africa, india, america, austrailia, all those countries on the island that broke away.... I mean I wouldn't be proud of my dad if he fought thoose wars either <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ahahahahahahahahaha
Do you know how big England is? I'm guessing you don't. To have conquered that much land at all is impressive for such a small island. You think it was gained by losing wars? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> so if a man becomes a millionaire. then loses all his money and becomes middle class. is he still a huge success?
He has been a huge success, yes. He may not be top of the pile anymore, but he was at one point (a big achievement), and being middle class is no bad thing. Middle class life is quite comfortable.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This may be a cultural difference, or this may be a generational issue, but when I went to school we bragged about our dads in the army, the souvenoirs they brought home, the photos we saw, how cool it was they were in Europe/Africa/wherever.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm guessing it's a generational thing. My old history teacher told us that he used to play soldiers etc. when he was young ("none of that Dungeons and Dragons nonsense"). I'm guessing fathers just didn't pass it down to their sons.
I agree, but the fact that it had an Empire at all is pretty impressive stuff. In the end, though, all military empires fall...but this is starting to veer into the "World Domination" thread's territory, so I'll stop there.
Again, I fail to see any reason to make military service manditory. To me, it seems like those who support it have some kind of ideology that it's the solution to unemployment and poverty. This is what is far from the truth. As a member of the Armed Forces raised on the south side of Chicago, I am proud to serve voluntarily and that all those around me have as well. I joined the military to a) serve in Iraq to help my bloodline, and b) gain money and benefits to pay for my future. Many of my friends have joined for the same reason and have had no choice but to. So if it appeases you at all, some people are indeed forced to join the military in any chance of a future. But nonetheless, it is and should be their choice.
There are much better solutions out there to solve our extreme gap in social class. Before you impose a permanent draft, consider socialist reforms, fair taxation, and better law enforcement. Just because the military changed your life doesn't mean others should be forced into your experiences.
AllUrHiveRblong2usBy Your Powers Combined...Join Date: 2002-12-20Member: 11244Members
edited February 2005
<!--QuoteBegin-AvengerX+Feb 23 2005, 05:22 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AvengerX @ Feb 23 2005, 05:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> thats cuz the UK didn't win too many wars....I mean UK us to have so much land... and they lost it all... south africa, india, america, austrailia, all those countries on the island that broke away.... I mean I wouldn't be proud of my dad if he fought thoose wars either <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> As opposed to the US, which still has all of its colonies. I hear Somoa's petitioning for statehood this summer!
<!--QuoteBegin-AvengerX+Feb 23 2005, 04:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AvengerX @ Feb 23 2005, 04:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm glad I'm not clam's kid... all the other kids dad's would be proud citizens and stuff.. but not clam jr's... no , he doesn't really like the country.... that'd be ruff
I don't think madatory drafts are a good idea right now. if there was a war crisis then maybe I'd say so <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't like patriotism because it leads too easily to nationalism (which is a big problem right now).
You shouldn't like your country just because you live there. You should like your country because of the principles it stands for. Thus, the principles are more important than the flag.
It would be hard for AvengerX to be my son, considering we are about the same age.
By the way, England has been very successful militarily. They haven't had an invader set foot on their land since William of Normandy, in 1066. They were the rulers of the world for a while, even though their country is just a bit bigger than Illinois. They peacibly gave up much of their territory, once the age of Colonialism came to an end, they didn't exactly lose it because of military defeats.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->so if a man becomes a millionaire. then loses all his money and becomes middle class. is he still a huge success?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Do you consider success to be a financial accomplishment? I consider the sole deteriment of success to be happiness. If you're happy, then you're successful, regardless of your financial situation.
<!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Feb 24 2005, 10:21 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Feb 24 2005, 10:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't like patriotism because it leads too easily to nationalism (which is a big problem right now).
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Nationalism was a problem right before WWI started...I don't see how it's a problem now. If anything I see a lack of nationalism in the world.
Of course if you have any examples of nationalism being a problem in this day and age, I would love to see them.
<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Feb 24 2005, 11:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Feb 24 2005, 11:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Feb 24 2005, 10:21 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Feb 24 2005, 10:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't like patriotism because it leads too easily to nationalism (which is a big problem right now).
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nationalism was a problem right before WWI started...I don't see how it's a problem now. If anything I see a lack of nationalism in the world.
Of course if you have any examples of nationalism being a problem in this day and age, I would love to see them. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You don't think many Americans are nationalistic, nowadays?
There are way too many people with absolute confidence in Bush, American foreign policy, the American military, etc. I don't have a problem if you support these things, but way too many people are ignorantly putting their full support behind these things without thought. The black and white world of view of Bush, is one example. He thinks that there are only two ways in the world, the right way (America's way), and the wrong way (the terrorist's way), which is not true.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There are way too many people with absolute confidence in Bush, American foreign policy, the American military, etc. I don't have a problem if you support these things, but way too many people are ignorantly putting their full support behind these things without thought. The black and white world of view of Bush, is one example.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For every supporter of Bush there is someone who hates him. And for everyone who has a political opinion ether way there are twice as many people who don't care at all. America is no where near nationalism; we are barely even a united nation after this election. I'm sorry but I see real nationalism as the entire nation being united, as much as is possible, to complete a task. America could be said to have been a nationalistic country during WWII. Unfortunately we don't have anywhere near that kind of unity and purpose of mind right now.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->He thinks that there are only two ways in the world, the right way (America's way), and the wrong way (the terrorist's way), which is not true.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Feb 24 2005, 11:22 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Feb 24 2005, 11:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->He thinks that there are only two ways in the world, the right way (America's way), and the wrong way (the terrorist's way), which is not true.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In your opinion. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Bush:<a href='http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/11/06/gen.attack.on.terror/' target='_blank'>You are either with us or against us</a>
"President Bush said Tuesday that there was no room for neutrality in the war against terrorism."
I'm in the middle of this story, and this is what I've found so far: <a href='http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=21#' target='_blank'>http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=21#</a> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As befits a nation of immigrants, American nationalism is defined not by notions of ethnic superiority, but by a belief in the supremacy of U.S. democratic ideals. This disdain for Old World nationalism creates a dual paradox in the American psyche: <b>First, although the United States is highly nationalistic, it doesn’t see itself as such. </b>Second, despite this nationalistic fervor, U.S. policymakers generally fail to appreciate the power of nationalism abroad. ... Polling organizations routinely find that Americans display the highest degree of national pride among Western democracies. Researchers at the University of Chicago reported that before the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, 90 percent of the Americans surveyed agreed with the statement “I would rather be a citizen of America than of any other country in the world”; 38 percent endorsed the view that “The world would be a better place if people from other countries were more like the Americans.” (After the terrorist attacks, 97 and 49 percent, respectively, agreed with the same statements.) The World Values Survey reported similar results, with more than 70 percent of those surveyed declaring themselves “very proud” to be Americans. By comparison, the same survey revealed that less than half of the people in other Western democracies—including France, Italy, Denmark, Great Britain, and the Netherlands—felt “very proud” of their nationalities.
Americans not only take enormous pride in their values but <b>also regard them as universally applicable</b>. According to the Pew Global Attitudes survey, 79 percent of the Americans polled agreed that “It’s good that American ideas and customs are spreading around the world”; 70 percent said they “like American ideas about democracy.” These views, however, are not widely shared, even in Western Europe, another bastion of liberalism and democracy. Pew found that, among the Western European countries surveyed, less than 40 percent endorse the spread of American ideas and customs, and less than 50 percent like American ideas about democracy.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here's an interesting thing about that article I cited above. American nationalism comes from a pride in American values, rather than ethnicity, religion, language, or geography, as has been the case with many other nationalistic countries. This allows America to export the source of its nationalism to other countries, something it has done for half a century.
I don't know of any more nationalist action, than forcing other countries to embrace the source of your national pride. Whether you think this is wrong or not, it is still true. We are exporting democracy to Iraq, Afghanistan, Korea, Vietnam, Latin America, Eastern Europe, the Middle East, Russia, etc. All these regions are democratic, were unsuccessfuly forced to become democratic, or are becoming democratic, through the export of American values. That's one of the major reasons why terrorism is a problem. We are forcing our values and culture on countries that haven't ever experienced it. Thus, nationalists and radicals from those countries (e.g. Bin Laden), become incensed with hatred towards us.
@theclam: is it <b>THAT</b> hard to stay on topic here? Why not start your own thread and debate this ... I am sure it would be a success. Plus you could slam Bush and the Republicans all day long and stay on topic. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Yes, although I think all reasonable discussion about the topic at hand has been had, we can now carry this on in another topic.
If you can excuse my spelling of it. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
It is a difficult thing to define I guess, which leads to very different personal impressions about the term "nationalism". Maybe some of you somehow compare "nationalists" with nazis. Being a nationalist however does not automatically mean being a facist, too. The Idea of nationalism was established in the late medeival period, when slowly the idea of an abstact entity like a "nation" began to emerge in the head of the people. It went alongside with the development of wealth among comoners and the decline of feudal power. In earlier times, one mighty ruler conquered a land and formed a kingdom. In case the kingdom survived his creator, and his heir was able to keep the new kingdom together, then there was a dynasty and a new "nation". however, the commoners did not follow the idea of their "motherland", but they followed the man that inherited the right to rule. With the growníng power of common citicens and great, powerful towns and their wealthy citizens, the world changed.
So basically, a nationalist is one that is greatly submitted to the idea of his nation and basically what you would call a patriot nowadays. The term "nationalist" has been somewhat spoiled because of the fact that nationalistic sentiments might easily be mixed up with xhenophobic and facistoid tendencies.
@Legat: A seperate thread was started on nationalism, thanks <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
South Korea has a manditory draft of approximately three years after you turn eighteen.
In general, Korean citizens are hard workers; and i wouldn't doubt if this kind of work ethic is partly contributed by the disciplines they are culturally raised in.
I think alot of us are missing the main point of depot's view: that we could learn something and anything from such an experience he had. Perhaps, we could learn more than what we would gain elsewhere, and then again, in any part of life it is possible to learn and learn both positively and negatively.
It's like what che said, "let the world change you...and you can change the world." This quotation would apply to most people who decide to join the army, who have willed themselves to several years less or more. But trying to perceive the situation on different angles, the change that people need can be in the now and present.
It's this type of change we have to ask ourselves if we are in need for, perhaps to be infected also...I could travel the world, visit the unknown, perhaps join the military, but often feel that my true desires and subconscious routines will be the same (influenced by my religious upbringings).
The reason why we might join the military are many and different for all people, obviously. My reasons otherwise are to find a truth which I can understand and which I will find a purpose to my own. And I think joining the armed forces for sometime wouldn't necessarily cause any suceeding detriment to anyone, that is if I am correct and they don't spread massive propoganda and nonsense in the army much like the movies we see of post-apocalyptic vietnam. Who knows though, I might be stuck playing ping-pong every day like Forrest Gump.
<!--quoteo(post=1395667:date=Feb 25 2005, 09:18 PM:name=kida)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kida @ Feb 25 2005, 09:18 PM) [snapback]1395667[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> South Korea has a manditory draft of approximately three years after you turn eighteen.
In general, Korean citizens are hard workers; and i wouldn't doubt if this kind of work ethic is partly contributed by the disciplines they are culturally raised in.
I think alot of us are missing the main point of depot's view: that we could learn something and anything from such an experience he had. Perhaps, we could learn more than what we would gain elsewhere, and then again, in any part of life it is possible to learn and learn both positively and negatively.
It's like what che said, "let the world change you...and you can change the world." This quotation would apply to most people who decide to join the army, who have willed themselves to several years less or more. But trying to perceive the situation on different angles, the change that people need can be in the now and present.
It's this type of change we have to ask ourselves if we are in need for, perhaps to be infected also...I could travel the world, visit the unknown, perhaps join the military, but often feel that my true desires and subconscious routines will be the same (influenced by my religious upbringings).
The reason why we might join the military are many and different for all people, obviously. My reasons otherwise are to find a truth which I can understand and which I will find a purpose to my own. And I think joining the armed forces for sometime wouldn't necessarily cause any suceeding detriment to anyone, that is if I am correct and they don't spread massive propoganda and nonsense in the army much like the movies we see of post-apocalyptic vietnam. Who knows though, I might be stuck playing ping-pong every day like Forrest Gump. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> My point exactly kida. It's not that I want to see an 18 year old go to war (which could include my grandson) but 2 or 3 years in the armed forces would positively shape a lot of young people into responsible, disciplined adults.
Yeah, and while we're at it, make it mandatory to get a drivers license. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wow.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":0" border="0" alt="wow.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1587201:date=Dec 11 2006, 11:02 PM:name=Depot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Depot @ Dec 11 2006, 11:02 PM) [snapback]1587201[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Yeah, and while we're at it, make it mandatory to get a drivers license. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wow.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":0" border="0" alt="wow.gif" /> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Didn't say mandatory to join, simply mandatory if you want to vote.
Comments
If the number one concern of a kid is that his dad isn't a patriot, then that kid needs more damn homework.
If the number one concern of a kid is that his dad isn't a patriot, then that kid needs more damn homework. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
most kids really look up to their dad's when there little. they think there awesome and cool. and while they allways find out that their dad isn't the world's most awesome person.. sometimes its a little bit more of a let down then others....
and homework is the #1 most stupid thing ever.... I got to school 7 hours a day... thats almost 1/3 of my life... how the heck can't I learn enough in that time span? back in the day kids didn't have homework cuz they all had to go home and help their parents on the farm and what not... but now a days... kids are diffently not busy with anything so lets give them tonz of busywork/homework so they stay off the streets and don't do drugs or something..... I just wish homework wasn't around I'm doing a lot of productive things in my life and homeowrk just is a pointless loop a lot of times that I have to jump threw...
I never disputed that. Maybe America is just vastly different to the UK, but none of the kids I ever knew gave a damn about having a patriot for a dad. We were more interested in whether he was a cool guy.
Edit: added quote, otherwise it looks like I was replying to Depot and not avengerX.
I never disputed that. Maybe America is just vastly different to the UK, but none of the kids I ever knew gave a damn about having a patriot for a dad.
Edit: added quote, otherwise it looks like I was replying to Depot and not avengerX. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
thats cuz the UK didn't win too many wars....I mean UK us to have so much land... and they lost it all... south africa, india, america, austrailia, all those countries on the island that broke away.... I mean I wouldn't be proud of my dad if he fought thoose wars either
Ahahahahahahahahaha
Do you know how big England is? I'm guessing you don't. To have conquered that much land at all is impressive for such a small island. You think it was gained by losing wars?
This may be a cultural difference, or this may be a generational issue, but when I went to school we bragged about our dads in the army, the souvenoirs they brought home, the photos we saw, how cool it was they were in Europe/Africa/wherever.
Ahahahahahahahahaha
Do you know how big England is? I'm guessing you don't. To have conquered that much land at all is impressive for such a small island. You think it was gained by losing wars? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
so if a man becomes a millionaire. then loses all his money and becomes middle class. is he still a huge success?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This may be a cultural difference, or this may be a generational issue, but when I went to school we bragged about our dads in the army, the souvenoirs they brought home, the photos we saw, how cool it was they were in Europe/Africa/wherever.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm guessing it's a generational thing. My old history teacher told us that he used to play soldiers etc. when he was young ("none of that Dungeons and Dragons nonsense"). I'm guessing fathers just didn't pass it down to their sons.
but I think that patriotism is importent. I mean I'm proud of my country and I love this land. I'd fight to defend it.
There are much better solutions out there to solve our extreme gap in social class. Before you impose a permanent draft, consider socialist reforms, fair taxation, and better law enforcement. Just because the military changed your life doesn't mean others should be forced into your experiences.
As opposed to the US, which still has all of its colonies. I hear Somoa's petitioning for statehood this summer!
I don't think madatory drafts are a good idea right now. if there was a war crisis then maybe I'd say so <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't like patriotism because it leads too easily to nationalism (which is a big problem right now).
You shouldn't like your country just because you live there. You should like your country because of the principles it stands for. Thus, the principles are more important than the flag.
It would be hard for AvengerX to be my son, considering we are about the same age.
By the way, England has been very successful militarily. They haven't had an invader set foot on their land since William of Normandy, in 1066. They were the rulers of the world for a while, even though their country is just a bit bigger than Illinois. They peacibly gave up much of their territory, once the age of Colonialism came to an end, they didn't exactly lose it because of military defeats.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->so if a man becomes a millionaire. then loses all his money and becomes middle class. is he still a huge success?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you consider success to be a financial accomplishment? I consider the sole deteriment of success to be happiness. If you're happy, then you're successful, regardless of your financial situation.
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Nationalism was a problem right before WWI started...I don't see how it's a problem now. If anything I see a lack of nationalism in the world.
Of course if you have any examples of nationalism being a problem in this day and age, I would love to see them.
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Nationalism was a problem right before WWI started...I don't see how it's a problem now. If anything I see a lack of nationalism in the world.
Of course if you have any examples of nationalism being a problem in this day and age, I would love to see them. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't think many Americans are nationalistic, nowadays?
There are way too many people with absolute confidence in Bush, American foreign policy, the American military, etc. I don't have a problem if you support these things, but way too many people are ignorantly putting their full support behind these things without thought. The black and white world of view of Bush, is one example. He thinks that there are only two ways in the world, the right way (America's way), and the wrong way (the terrorist's way), which is not true.
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No.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There are way too many people with absolute confidence in Bush, American foreign policy, the American military, etc. I don't have a problem if you support these things, but way too many people are ignorantly putting their full support behind these things without thought. The black and white world of view of Bush, is one example.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For every supporter of Bush there is someone who hates him. And for everyone who has a political opinion ether way there are twice as many people who don't care at all. America is no where near nationalism; we are barely even a united nation after this election. I'm sorry but I see real nationalism as the entire nation being united, as much as is possible, to complete a task. America could be said to have been a nationalistic country during WWII. Unfortunately we don't have anywhere near that kind of unity and purpose of mind right now.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->He thinks that there are only two ways in the world, the right way (America's way), and the wrong way (the terrorist's way), which is not true.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In your opinion.
In your opinion. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bush:<a href='http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/11/06/gen.attack.on.terror/' target='_blank'>You are either with us or against us</a>
"President Bush said Tuesday that there was no room for neutrality in the war against terrorism."
I'm in the middle of this story, and this is what I've found so far:
<a href='http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=21#' target='_blank'>http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=21#</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As befits a nation of immigrants, American nationalism is defined not by notions of ethnic superiority, but by a belief in the supremacy of U.S. democratic ideals. This disdain for Old World nationalism creates a dual paradox in the American psyche: <b>First, although the United States is highly nationalistic, it doesn’t see itself as such. </b>Second, despite this nationalistic fervor, U.S. policymakers generally fail to appreciate the power of nationalism abroad.
...
Polling organizations routinely find that Americans display the highest degree of national pride among Western democracies. Researchers at the University of Chicago reported that before the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, 90 percent of the Americans surveyed agreed with the statement “I would rather be a citizen of America than of any other country in the world”; 38 percent endorsed the view that “The world would be a better place if people from other countries were more like the Americans.” (After the terrorist attacks, 97 and 49 percent, respectively, agreed with the same statements.) The World Values Survey reported similar results, with more than 70 percent of those surveyed declaring themselves “very proud” to be Americans. By comparison, the same survey revealed that less than half of the people in other Western democracies—including France, Italy, Denmark, Great Britain, and the Netherlands—felt “very proud” of their nationalities.
Americans not only take enormous pride in their values but <b>also regard them as universally applicable</b>. According to the Pew Global Attitudes survey, 79 percent of the Americans polled agreed that “It’s good that American ideas and customs are spreading around the world”; 70 percent said they “like American ideas about democracy.” These views, however, are not widely shared, even in Western Europe, another bastion of liberalism and democracy. Pew found that, among the Western European countries surveyed, less than 40 percent endorse the spread of American ideas and customs, and less than 50 percent like American ideas about democracy.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know of any more nationalist action, than forcing other countries to embrace the source of your national pride. Whether you think this is wrong or not, it is still true. We are exporting democracy to Iraq, Afghanistan, Korea, Vietnam, Latin America, Eastern Europe, the Middle East, Russia, etc. All these regions are democratic, were unsuccessfuly forced to become democratic, or are becoming democratic, through the export of American values. That's one of the major reasons why terrorism is a problem. We are forcing our values and culture on countries that haven't ever experienced it. Thus, nationalists and radicals from those countries (e.g. Bin Laden), become incensed with hatred towards us.
If you can excuse my spelling of it. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
You don't think many Americans are nationalistic, nowadays?
No.
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It is a difficult thing to define I guess, which leads to very different personal impressions about the term "nationalism".
Maybe some of you somehow compare "nationalists" with nazis.
Being a nationalist however does not automatically mean being a facist, too.
The Idea of nationalism was established in the late medeival period, when slowly the idea of an abstact entity like a "nation" began to emerge in the head of the people. It went alongside with the development of wealth among comoners and the decline of feudal power. In earlier times, one mighty ruler conquered a land and formed a kingdom. In case the kingdom survived his creator, and his heir was able to keep the new kingdom together, then there was a dynasty and a new "nation". however, the commoners did not follow the idea of their "motherland", but they followed the man that inherited the right to rule.
With the growníng power of common citicens and great, powerful towns and their wealthy citizens, the world changed.
So basically, a nationalist is one that is greatly submitted to the idea of his nation and basically what you would call a patriot nowadays.
The term "nationalist" has been somewhat spoiled because of the fact that nationalistic sentiments might easily be mixed up with xhenophobic and facistoid tendencies.
In general, Korean citizens are hard workers; and i wouldn't doubt if this kind of work ethic is partly contributed by the disciplines they are culturally raised in.
I think alot of us are missing the main point of depot's view: that we could learn something and anything from such an experience he had. Perhaps, we could learn more than what we would gain elsewhere, and then again, in any part of life it is possible to learn and learn both positively and negatively.
It's like what che said, "let the world change you...and you can change the world." This quotation would apply to most people who decide to join the army, who have willed themselves to several years less or more. But trying to perceive the situation on different angles, the change that people need can be in the now and present.
It's this type of change we have to ask ourselves if we are in need for, perhaps to be infected also...I could travel the world, visit the unknown, perhaps join the military, but often feel that my true desires and subconscious routines will be the same (influenced by my religious upbringings).
The reason why we might join the military are many and different for all people, obviously. My reasons otherwise are to find a truth which I can understand and which I will find a purpose to my own. And I think joining the armed forces for sometime wouldn't necessarily cause any suceeding detriment to anyone, that is if I am correct and they don't spread massive propoganda and nonsense in the army much like the movies we see of post-apocalyptic vietnam. Who knows though, I might be stuck playing ping-pong every day like Forrest Gump.
South Korea has a manditory draft of approximately three years after you turn eighteen.
In general, Korean citizens are hard workers; and i wouldn't doubt if this kind of work ethic is partly contributed by the disciplines they are culturally raised in.
I think alot of us are missing the main point of depot's view: that we could learn something and anything from such an experience he had. Perhaps, we could learn more than what we would gain elsewhere, and then again, in any part of life it is possible to learn and learn both positively and negatively.
It's like what che said, "let the world change you...and you can change the world." This quotation would apply to most people who decide to join the army, who have willed themselves to several years less or more. But trying to perceive the situation on different angles, the change that people need can be in the now and present.
It's this type of change we have to ask ourselves if we are in need for, perhaps to be infected also...I could travel the world, visit the unknown, perhaps join the military, but often feel that my true desires and subconscious routines will be the same (influenced by my religious upbringings).
The reason why we might join the military are many and different for all people, obviously. My reasons otherwise are to find a truth which I can understand and which I will find a purpose to my own. And I think joining the armed forces for sometime wouldn't necessarily cause any suceeding detriment to anyone, that is if I am correct and they don't spread massive propoganda and nonsense in the army much like the movies we see of post-apocalyptic vietnam. Who knows though, I might be stuck playing ping-pong every day like Forrest Gump.
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My point exactly kida. It's not that I want to see an 18 year old go to war (which could include my grandson) but 2 or 3 years in the armed forces would positively shape a lot of young people into responsible, disciplined adults.
Yeah, and while we're at it, make it mandatory to get a drivers license. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wow.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":0" border="0" alt="wow.gif" />
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Didn't say mandatory to join, simply mandatory if you want to vote.